Divorce Diaries: Lessons From the Trenches
Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where host Cary Jacobson, attorney and mediator brings you real stories, hard truths, and practical advice on navigating divorce and family law. Whether you're going through it, considering it, or just curious, this is your place for clarity, confidence, and resilience.
Divorce Diaries: Lessons From the Trenches
EP #18: Communication Strategies for Healing During Divorce with Guest Mary Blackwood, LCMFT
Mary Blackwood, licensed clinical marriage and family therapist and founder of the Couples and Family Institute, shares her expertise on healing family systems during divorce and separation. She reveals how communication breakdowns occur when people listen to reply rather than listening to absorb, and offers practical approaches to help families navigate transitions with less trauma and more growth.
Visit mpbhealth.com to learn more about Mary Blackwood and the Couples and Family Institute's services for families in transition.
Visit jacobsonfamilylaw.com to learn more.
Visit jacobsonworkshop.com to learn more.
So if I'm only thinking about myself what I have to say and not what my partner or the loved one has to say, then you're not thinking about the union that you've created. You're only thinking about the one part of it, and that's me. And so that's where the communication breakdown comes in.
Intro/Close:Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where attorney Keri Jacobson brings you real stories, hard truths and practical advice on navigating divorce and family law, whether you're going through it, considering it or just curious this is your place for clarity, confidence and resilience.
Cary:Hi everyone, welcome back to Divorce Diaries Lessons from the Trenches. I'm your host, keri Jacobson, and in this podcast we dig into the real issues, the hard lessons and smart strategies to help you navigate divorce with less drama and more clarity. Today, I'm thrilled to be joined by someone whose work truly embodies the heart of family healing, by someone whose work truly embodies the heart of family healing. Mary Blackwood is a licensed clinical marriage and family therapist and the executive operations director and program director of the Couples and Family Institute, which she founded in 2018. Her journey from intern to visionary leader at MPB Group Incorporated is so inspiring. She has spent over a decade helping couples and families find their footing again, and she's especially known for her work with adoption, foster care and guardianship families. Under her leadership, mpb Group became the Adoption Competency Agency and she continues to bring systemic, trauma-informed and forward-thinking practices to her team. Mary, thank you so much for being here.
Mary:Thank you, carrie for having me.
Cary:So can you tell our listeners a little bit about your why? What has led you to dedicate your career to helping families and couples heal?
Mary:Great question. I think one of the things that I think is really important is life is short and we should go through life with as much contentment and love and joy as possible, and sometimes things get in the way. A trauma event, just life way. A trauma event, just life. Human development in itself is in transitioning from teenager to launching adult, finding someone getting married and then all of a sudden you discover they weren't really the person that you thought, or you grew apart or whatever. Those are all normal kind of parts of our lives. Sometimes we just need somebody to help navigate that with us, and that's where family therapy and couples therapy comes in. And so, yeah, it's rewarding, frustrating at times, for sure, but more times rewarding than not.
Cary:Yes, so you've built this program that incorporates everything from premarital counseling to trauma-informed family therapy. What do you see as the most common breakdowns in communication that brings couples into therapy?
Mary:The number one is listening to reply versus listening to absorb. Willing the good of the other for the other is lacking. I think the definition of love has been kind of I don't know I'm not thinking of the word I want to use but the true sense of love is willing the good of the other for the other, and so if I'm willing, that, that means I'm listening to you. Right, I want to hear what you have to say and I trust that you want to do the same, and I think everything is reactionary and everyone wants to be heard which is a good thing without listening themselves, and so I think that is the biggest breakdown in our communications.
Cary:Yeah, Not listening to really truly hear what the other person's saying, but so that you can respond to what they're saying 100%, and that is an ego-driven component, right?
Mary:So if I'm only thinking about myself what I have to say and not what my partner or the loved one has to say, then you're not thinking about the union that you've created. You're only thinking about the one part of it, and that's me. And so that's where the communication breakdown comes in.
Cary:How do you work with couples to improve that?
Mary:First off, I have to listen. That's the first and foremost. So I think as a therapist, as a couples and family therapist, we have to model what we want them to see and that is going slower following our pace. It has to be a little bit on the slower side so that they can also calm down just the nervous system in itself, like you're escalating right now. I'm going to be quiet and I'm going to listen and I'm going to show empathy to you and that way they can say like, okay, I'm in a safe place, now I can share, and that. So that's the first one. I like to put down boundaries and expectations, what's necessary for us to get through all of this, and I do want it to be a finite number of times, because I think that's important, I think that's highly motivating.
Cary:Yeah, I think that many people go into traditional therapy thinking that it's just going to be an ongoing thing, and I find that there's a lot of reluctance to that Well said the team that we, that I have kind of put together.
Mary:we all agree that it should be short term, because we want them to take what they learn and enjoy themselves and their family and enjoy life. How beautiful is that. Right, and so that they also know that they're making progress, hopefully 100%, and then they'll see like, oh, this does work, we do love each other. Gee, I am listening to you. Those are all really good things, and you don't have to do that in therapy all your life in order to get there.
Cary:Yeah, we know that divorce can be a traumatic event, not just for couples but also the entire family system. Can you talk a bit about how you know the importance of therapy for kids who are going through or have gone through a divorce?
Mary:Yeah, I mean, it's a tragedy when a family falls apart and the children just don't know where to begin to think. A lot of times they don't know what they're feeling. Sometimes they internalize it. So you see all kinds of different things. You might see acting out, you might see internalizing.
Mary:One of the things that we do, especially like in reunification or family therapy, like co-parenting is we help the family know right away that there's a set of ground rules on behavior, because at one point you did love each other, at one point you wanted to start this family and you have these children and that's your responsibility first and foremost. And what does that look like? Sometimes that's just really going back to scratch, like how do you behave? And just helping the child. We have a lot of like. We have a trauma play therapy program. That is a beautiful thing, because sometimes children can't communicate with words. So we have art and play and that's a very helpful thing to help their emotions kind of reveal, and it's okay. But a lot of it, to be honest with you, is more co-parenting than it is, because they need to behave so that the child can feel safe and secure.
Cary:Absolutely, you know, because it comes from the parents 100%.
Mary:They are the models. So, if people forget, the teachers are not our teachers, but our parents are the first teacher, right? So every single thing that you do is absorbed by your child and they are seeing and watching and observing every single thing.
Cary:Yeah, one of the probably the most common questions that I get from people who are not yet separated is you know how and when to share the information with their children? Do you have any tips or suggestions on when parents should share that information with their kids about what is happening between you know, with the family?
Mary:Yeah, that's a great question. I don't know if there's a specific time. However, it's what's individual to the family, but I can guarantee you the children already know. Yeah, because you can't hide the animosity that you have to each other. You know people, the kids pick it up real fast and they're very sensitive to that. So secrets are a family killer and keeping a secret longer than it needs to be can really do damage to a family and to the children. So I think you know having an honest conversation with them that's age appropriate is really the right thing to do.
Cary:Do you generally recommend that it come from both parents or one parent, or does it just depend on the particular circumstances?
Mary:Yeah, unfortunately it does depend on the circumstances, but in the ideal world it should be both parents Okay, because then you're not getting one side and you don't, so it's a unified voice. Because then a child knows okay, at least they are unified in this, and then they'll have a sense of security. Two different voices, it it it cause anxiety.
Cary:We've talked about the children who may be going through divorce, and you know the need for their therapy. What about adults and parents, whether they're separating or already divorced? Why would you say that individual therapy is critical for someone in those scenarios?
Mary:because there is a distinct sense of loss. No matter how you put it, no matter what the partner may have done to you to have led to this, or whatever the case may be, there is a loss and a sense of loneliness. And how do you recover from that? And then, even if you are the one who is leading the divorce, there's still loss. Right, it was an expectation of a life together. That's not together, and so there's a lot of grief, there's a lot of processing on how you feel about it. And I also think it's really important and this comes from this discernment, counseling process and that is how did I contribute to this? What's my takeaway? How do I grow from this? Because I don't want to do that again. I don't want to do that again. So I think it's really important for us to kind of see some internal insight how did I grow, how did I contribute and how do I not do that again? Those are really important things to do in individual therapy.
Cary:So that they can go into the next relationship in a better place 100%, you'll be a better person for the next person and for yourself.
Mary:Right Ultimately, the relationship.
Cary:Okay, you mentioned discernment counseling and that is something that I strongly recommend to those individuals who are on the cusp. They're not quite sure if divorce is the way that they want to proceed. Or maybe it's something that they are considering and they're not sure if their spouse is going to. You know how their spouse is going to react. Or they think their spouse is going to ask for a divorce and they want to stay together, you know. So you've got two individuals that are not necessarily aligned with moving forward with a separation or divorce. Can you share because I don't think many people know what discernment counseling is and I've talked to lots of therapists who have never heard of discernment counseling Can you share with our listeners what discernment counseling is and how it's different from you? Know what we kind of understand to be traditional couples therapy?
Mary:Yeah, great, thank you, cause you're right, I didn't know about it until about five years ago myself. So it was created by William Dougherty and Stephen Harris and I, when I, when I was doing internship in my first period of licensure, I was met with the leaning in and leaning out couple and I didn't know that's what I was doing. And it was hard and I failed. I failed again and again and again because I didn't know what I was doing. And so this discernment counseling was developed, and when I read it and understood it, I was like wow, it's a game changer. So you know it's.
Mary:The goal is for clarity, confidence and understanding in that. Who am I? Who am I in this relationship? How did I contribute? And you have a leaning in a leaning out couple person and you have a leaning in a leaning out couple um person and you're trying to figure out what their story is. And and then how do you tell that story to your partner? And at the end there are three paths status quo, uh, divorce, or commitment to six months of couples therapy or commitment to six months of couples therapy. So making it the ones that we've worked with so far. They never made a decision and so I don't know if it's us right. It is that difficult to make a decision.
Cary:But I tell them, by default, you're making a decision to path one Right, so stay in the status quo.
Mary:Yeah, and that's, that's fine If you know how it works, and that's fine. And you know they, they balk at that. No, we're not, and I'm like yeah, and then they come back and then they're like okay, we have done this differently. Now we want couples therapy, so in a sometimes it just takes time.
Cary:Yeah, sometimes you know, it's just people have such a difficult time making a decision, and I think that can be for a multitude of reasons, you know. One is simply not knowing what the alternative is going to look like and being afraid of the change. Well said, you know what the status quo is, you're used to it and some people are content with continuing that.
Mary:Um, yeah, because sometimes change is more is scarier well, absolutely well said, and that is half the battle, not just divorced couples, but a lot of therapy in general. It's just hard to change, but helping someone visualize what life would be and that's one of the questions in discernment Like what does it look like for you? What might it look like? That's a scary thought, but it's a really important thing to look at, because when you make any major decision, don't you have hopes and dreams of what it will look like? Like when you pick a career? Or even when you got married, you had visions of what it would look like. So why wouldn't you have a vision of what divorce would look like? So, yeah, those are all things that come out of discernment counseling and I think it's really helpful.
Cary:Yeah, and I think sometimes it's just you know they may be leaning towards divorce, but they are scared to commit to that because of the unknowns and, you know, not taking the step to get educated on what it might look like. And that doesn't have to be disastrous for you know, for them and the family.
Mary:When we have had couples think that they're going path two. I send them all to you, carrie. I appreciate it. I'm like because I think you have a sensibility about calming the anxiety down and get through this process. It doesn't have to be contentious.
Cary:Right and I think so many people that's all they know, that's all they see, whether it's on TV or movies or friends and family that they only hear the horror stories. They don't hear about the scenarios where it went relatively smoothly and everyone got along and like life just continued on in a different format.
Mary:Yeah, I mean, that's what we want. If that's going to happen, that's what we want.
Cary:Absolutely All right. You mentioned another term earlier, and in these scenarios, these are the scenarios where things are much more contentious. As you know, we've worked together in this realm before. You know, in my work I sometimes get appointed by the court to represent children whose parents are going through a custody dispute, and many times in these scenarios it could be that one parent has been estranged from the child for a multitude of reasons, and so in those situations, there are many times where I am recommending that the children participate in something called reunification therapy. Can you kind of explain what that is and kind of the goals for reunification therapy?
Mary:Yeah, one of the most difficult protocols that we have, not going to lie.
Mary:So when you have two parents like you said, custody situation and one parent's estranged to have the relationship with the other parent, the estranged parent can be really important for that child to feel a sense of wholeness again. Unfortunately, sometimes the estranged parent, either by their own actions, where they maybe had some trouble or whatever now it's time for forgiveness or you know and coming back into the fold or it could be manipulation on the duty full parent. It doesn't matter what circumstances. The wholeness of the family is really the key piece, and so it is a lot of balancing between the more of the adults, but sometimes the child is so ingrained with their sense of what the truth is and so, again, it's not necessarily all family members are in the room. There's a lot of balancing around and seeing because we want everyone to feel safe, especially the child. That's the first and foremost is the safety of the child. We've had some good success with that and very proud of that, and it's a lot of hard work.
Mary:But when the parents are open to it, then great things are happening.
Cary:Yes, we had a very successful case, but I have had scenarios where it is much more complicated and I think for me as a as an attorney for the kids and I would love your perspective as the you know, the treating therapist and what I often recommend as far as like the best case scenario for how the process should work is both the child having their individual therapist, the estranged parent having their individual therapist, and then there being a third reunification therapist and then all three of those are kind of working in connection with one another.
Mary:You have described our protocol. Yeah, we have this is why we, you know an outpatient mental health clinic. We have a lot of resources at our disposal, which is a beautiful thing. So we do have a child and adolescent program where, depending on the age of the child, creative therapies, play therapy, whatever. Then we have our own, you know, trauma recovery center and sometimes it might be trauma related responses that you're seeing, but, yeah, individual, individual. And then the connection is the reunification therapist.
Cary:Yeah, okay, I think you know many times what I come up against is the a strange parent who they they're. They want to fast track things right. They've already had a scenario where they've been missing out on this child's important milestones and and has felt like they've been left out in the dark for a lot of you know, regardless of of the reason why and they are often like I want this to move very quickly and I try to explain like that's not always the way that that's going to happen we have to have the child feel prepared and ready first, because if you do the introduction too quickly, it seems like it's going to just set it up for failure.
Mary:Well, 100% agree. The child, first and foremost, has to feel safe. Insecure because in a lot of ways they've had all of their autonomy just stripped away from them between the legal system and then therapists all of these adults are making decisions for them. This is the only time where they get to have the autonomy like when? When will that be what I say to the individual, the, the estranged, estranged parent is going slow is going to be better for you for everlasting. If you go too fast, it's going to ruin it. And so the individual therapist just has to help them see the patients and how that is really going to be a sustaining relationship.
Cary:Right yeah, and I think sometimes as parents, we think of it as like them, as their children not necessarily thinking about it long term like these are people who are going to be adults and do you want to have a relationship with them after they turn 18?
Mary:100%. One of my favorite questions is like you know, do you think you're going to be invited to their wedding, right? And if not, then how do you get in that invitation? So, in a way, you're putting this main goal. You're not living in the present, you're looking in the future Again, because I don't think people people are afraid to look into the future. You got to have a goal, in which case all your actions will lead you to that goal. So they live a strange parent lives in the, in the moment. Like I need them now. I need this, my kid now, right? They're short-sighted into seeing what the bigger picture is, and so that's what our job is.
Cary:Yeah, what do you wish more people understood about seeking therapy during those major life transitions, whether it's separation, divorce or co-parenting challenges?
Mary:I think that if you want a content, joyful life, you have to sometimes admit that you need help and put the ego aside and ask for help, knowing that it doesn't have to be forever and it's not a matter of a failure that you're asking for help. It's more strength for that than it is trying to keep doing the same thing over and over and it's not. It's not going well. So I think you know the. The hope that we probably give, or we try to give, is that this is just a temporary thing. We're here to help. Then you're going to be on your merry way. So we're trying to take away the stigma from from asking for help. Yeah, and so that's what we try to do from asking for help?
Cary:Yeah, and so that's what we try to do that there are people to assist, and hopefully they gave you the tools so that you can do it on your own for a long time 100% without therapists.
Mary:But even then, if something tragic happens or something else happens, it's okay to go back, right? But yeah, we're here to help not be part of your family forever.
Cary:What advice would you give to parents who may be feeling overwhelmed and aren't sure where to start when it comes to getting help for their family?
Mary:Well, one of the things that I think I see more often than not is that you have to realize you're the model to your you know. So when we've got people coming in and saying my child disrespects me, you have to model respect right, and you have to learn how to take care of yourself, and so you're not always a reactive parent, and you have to have a set of rules and boundaries that you live by. And children thrive in rules and boundaries, and if you don't set them, you will have chaos. And so when you're in the midst of chaos asking for help, it will just lighten your load so much. But you can't resist the help you have to ask and you have to be vulnerable to accept it and not resist it.
Mary:Because I think that also gets in the way, carrie, where people ask for help but they say, well, I already did that or I tried. That also gets in the way, carrie, where people ask for help but they say, well, I already did that or I tried that, or da, da, da, and so that means they're not really open to hearing new things, even if they're old things. Maybe they didn't try it long enough, or whatever the case would be. Anyway, just being open to the change, yeah.
Cary:All right. Thank you so much for being here. Where can people learn more about you and MPB Group and the services that you provide? Families?
Mary:Thank you. We have a website, mpbhealthorg, or is it com? Whoops, I think it's com. Oh yeah, yeah, and then, yeah, our website's the best place. Yeah, I think it'scom.
Cary:Awesome, and we'll make sure to link it in the show notes.
Mary:I appreciate that. Thank you.
Cary:Thank you so much for sharing your expertise, your passion and your powerful perspective with us today. It's clear that your work with helping so many families not just survive difficult transitions but truly heal and grow. If you'd like to learn more about mary and the couples and families institute will have those links in the show notes. Whether you're a parent, a professional or just someone curious about building healthier family systems, there's so much to explore. And, to our listeners, thank you for tuning in to divorce diaries. Don't forget to subscribe, leave a review and share this episode with anyone who might need it. Until next time, I'm your host, carrie jacobson.
Intro/Close:Thank you thanks for joining us today on this episode of divorce diaries. Remember every journey is unique, but you don't have to navigate it alone. Visit JacobsonFamilyLawcom or call 443-726-4912 for support and guidance.