Divorce Diaries: Lessons From the Trenches
Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where host Cary Jacobson, attorney and mediator brings you real stories, hard truths, and practical advice on navigating divorce and family law. Whether you're going through it, considering it, or just curious, this is your place for clarity, confidence, and resilience.
Divorce Diaries: Lessons From the Trenches
EP #19: Navigating Special Education During Family Transitions with Guest Frances Shefter, Education Attorney
Frances Shefter, education attorney and former special education teacher, shares how parents can effectively advocate for their special needs children during and after divorce. Her unique experience on both sides of the IEP table helps create what she calls a "stress-free IEP experience" for families navigating complex educational systems during family transitions.
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I'm not just some attorney coming in trying to tell you how to do your job. I'm an attorney that used to do your job and anything I'm asking for. I don't go in demanding that every child goes to a non-public placement because that's not realistic. You know, I come in asking for realistic things and always have the support because I know how to read the IEPs. I know how to read the IEPs, I know how to read the history. I know how to read the psychological reports and pull what we need to get what my clients want for their child.
Intro/Close:Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where Cary Jacobson brings you real stories, hard truths and practical advice on navigating divorce and family law. Whether you're going through it, considering it or just curious, this is your place for clarity, confidence and resilience.
Cary Jacobson:Welcome back to Divorce Diaries Lessons from the Trenches, the podcast, where we dive deep into complex world of divorce, co-parenting and everything in between, giving you tools to navigate the life's toughest transitions with more confidence and less chaos. I'm your Cary Jacobson, and today we're talking about something that's incredibly important for parents of children with special needs how to advocate for your child's education during and after a divorce. Joining me today is Frances Schefter, an education attorney and advocate, who has dedicated her life to helping families ensure that children get the support that they need. At school, Frances started her career in the classroom as a teacher, became a special education coordinator and ultimately realized she can make a bigger impact through the legal system. After earning her law degree with a concentration in advocacy, she founded Schefter Law, where she and her team help families have a stress-free IEP experience. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Frances, for joining us today.
Frances Schefter:Thank you, Carrie, and thank you for having me.
Cary Jacobson:Absolutely. It's good to see you. It's been a while since we've connected, I know I'd love for you to start by telling our listeners, kind of you know from the beginning, what inspired you to transition from teaching to becoming an attorney, helping children in education to becoming an attorney helping children in education.
Frances Schefter:So you know, I had been a teacher for I mean, that was my whole career at the beginning and I loved teaching, I loved the kids. But it's not about the kids. And it's not about teaching because there's all the other background stuff going on. And I was at an elementary school, it was fabulous. And then I moved counties to an alternative middle and high school and like I loved the kids, but again it wasn't about the kids. Like, put me in a classroom with my children and let me do my thing, I'll be fine. But that reality check it doesn't happen. And you know, my story is a little funny because I never said I'm going to go to law school. I kind of said I'm going to take the LSATs and see what happens. And then you know, and then my friends like, oh well, you have to take Kaplan. All right, fine, I'll take Kaplan. And you know the series of events. And then all of a sudden I get this acceptance letter.
Cary Jacobson:I'm like I'm going to law school.
Frances Schefter:You know, kind of one of those. And then of course it made sense to combine my two careers because you know I bring something different to the IEP table as an attorney, because I've been on the other side, I've been the regular teacher, I've been the special ed teacher, I've been the coordinator, I've also been the mom and now the attorney as well. So it definitely brings something different to the table for everyone.
Cary Jacobson:And how does all of those experiences combined help you advocate for your clients and their kids?
Frances Schefter:So it helps me because I'm never at Well. I should say I'm never adversarial, I never start adversarial. You know, I go in and I I connect with the teachers, I speak their language and I'll tell them, like usually at the beginning, if they don't know me, I'll tell them my background and just to be like you know what, I'm not just some attorney coming in trying to tell you how to do your job. I'm an attorney that used to do your job and to tell you how to do your job. I'm an attorney that used to do your job and and I, you know anything I'm asking for. I don't go in demanding that every child goes to a non-public placement, because that's not realistic. You know, I I come in asking for realistic things and always have the support, because I know how to read the IEPs, I know how to read the history, I know how to read the psychological reports and pull what we need to get what my clients want for their child.
Cary Jacobson:That makes a lot of sense. And do you find that the teachers have a different reception to you because you've been on their side?
Frances Schefter:you've been on their side, definitely A hundred percent. I see there's been so many times I've been in IEP meetings, or even whether they're virtual or when they were in person, and once I say my background, everybody just kind of like, you see the sigh of relief, right, you know, because you know, and we all have our own styles as attorneys, as you know. But there's no reason to start out adversarial, you know, like, yeah, there's a reason our client hired us because they're not getting their voice across. But as an attorney, we can still come in to get our clients voice across and they'll listen to us more, but in a respectful way. That's not like I'll never say, well, you, teacher, aren't doing this. I'll be like, well, I'm sure you're doing it in the classroom, let's get. Let's pull it out, like what exactly do you do here? And now let's get it in the IEP, right, which is always, you know, like when you come in accusing somebody, they're not going to take it.
Cary Jacobson:Absolutely. Now I know you coined the phrase stress-free IEP. Can you explain to our listeners what that is and how your firm helps the parents through what is so often that stressful process?
Frances Schefter:Yes, definitely. A lot of people are like there's no such thing as a stress-free IEP. I'm like I get it 100%. Look, I stress at my own daughter's I's meetings. But where it came from is that we take the stress for you and that's the hope. You know my team and I, we understand what's going on, we know it. We're that extra pair of ears for you so that you, as the parent, can just be the parent. You don't have to worry about it.
Frances Schefter:What we like to tell all of our clients at the IEP meeting before the IEP meetings were like look at the IEP meeting, say whatever you feel. However you want to do it, it's all good. There's nothing you can say in an IEP meeting that we can't say. What my client is trying to say is and put it in that terminology that we need. So it's just, it's, it's. You don't have to stress, we will stress for you. We've got you, we've got your back and and it's, it's just calming to know that I don't have to remember everything and I don't have, you know, as a parent.
Intro/Close:I don't have to remember everything. I don't have to listen to everything.
Frances Schefter:I don't have to ask all the questions, like somebody else is there, so that's. That's what it's about.
Cary Jacobson:Now, as you know, so many of our listeners are going through, or have gone through, a divorce or a separation, and some of them have you know, so many of our listeners are going through, or have gone through, a divorce or a separation, and some of them have, you know, children who have special needs. How can a divorce or separation impact a child's IEP or 504 plan?
Frances Schefter:So directly it doesn't, but indirectly obviously it does. So directly it doesn't, but indirectly obviously it does Both parents still maintain educational decision-making rights, unless for some reason there or just you know, as an agreement in itself to make sure you have that one has decision, decision making has tie-breaking authority. Because what happens is if you have two parents that are coming in and both have 50, 50 in legal rights and they completely disagree, right, what do you do? You, you know the school is not going to pick one over the other. The school is just kind of going to be like I'm out, you know what else to do.
Frances Schefter:So that's something that's important that you make sure that one one has decision-making, because or talk through what you guys want for the kid in advance, so that you're in that place, that you don't have the disagreement. You know that's one thing. And then the other thing is to think about before getting divorced is your residency Right, and that's? I've had that issue often with enrollment in the school system, because if one moves to another county you know there could be that issue there. So it's just those things to think about. Like, I know divorce is hard and you're not in that co-parenting mindset always, but you got to think about it. You got to put your child first and really think about what do we want for our child educationally?
Cary Jacobson:you know Right, what do we want for our child educationally? You know Right, and just for our listeners, it is possible to have tie-breaking authority just on one particular issue such as education, or to specify that if you have joint legal custody and you can't come to an agreement, that they can come back to mediation to try to resolve that particular issue before something else is dealt with. And the 50-50, you know, physical custody is something that I have dealt with as well. When you've got parents that move, you know, after you've separated, and unless you specify where the child is going to go to school, it can be a battle of which which jurisdiction the child is going to enroll in.
Frances Schefter:Right, exactly, and especially if they're in different counties or even different states. It's challenging because I've had situations where the schools have said, well, wait a minute, they don't live in our district anymore, they can't attend school here anymore. When it's like whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. Parents are separated, one is living in DC and one is living in Maryland. Here's all the proof. The child bounces back and forth, you know, like, depending, they're co-parenting nicely together. Here's all the documentation that they're still maintaining the Bethesda address or the you know the Maryland address. And he, you know, and this is why. And so you provide all that proof. And then the school system's like oh, okay, but it's one of those things that you have to know in advance, to remember that you might have to prove it again.
Cary Jacobson:Right and it is a simple thing to include in an agreement. You know if, if this is going to become an issue, simply saying you know the parties or the parents agree that the child is going to continue to be enrolled in schools in X County, um, so that there aren't issues or disputes about it later.
Frances Schefter:Right, yeah, and that, and it's so important because you know some counties are, you know all counties have their own little special ways and what they want. And you know, a lot of times, like I mean I've had it even in the same county that parents you know one is at one address and one is at the other address in different schools, in boundary schools, and which you know. Thankfully in that situation both parents agreed on that stuff, so it wasn't a big deal. But I've also had situations where you know mom has one attorney and dad has another attorney. We got the two education attorneys kind of litigating together. It's a little weird because you know it just to me. I don't want to say it's a waste of family resources, but it kind of is like you guys need to get on the same page here. I know you don't get along whatever, but don't put the kids in the middle, you know.
Cary Jacobson:And that's something that we really do try to work with our clients on, to the extent that that is possible, for sure. Do the schools handle IEP meetings any differently when the parents are divorced or are in conflict about their children's names? I've had.
Frances Schefter:So they're the annual review. Iep meeting is the annual review I have always had difficulty with they're not always notifying both parents, but they have to. Legally, the problem is their system is not set up to have like two different primaries, but in general they don't teach, they don't hold them differently, they still do the same. I have had them have separate meetings because of parents that couldn't be in the same room.
Frances Schefter:Um, and then the problem is is like, if there are disagreements generally there haven't been, so it's not but schools aren't gonna, they're not going to get involved. You know they're gonna be like go back, go back to your lawyer. You know like this is, this is the court order. Their legal is going to advise them. Like you got to treat them both the same, um, so they, they don't. Um, it's always interesting when you have two divorced parents that start fighting in the middle of the night and it's like you know, um, but you know the school, the school is going to focus on what's important for the child and what's best for the child, or at least what they think it is.
Cary Jacobson:So things should not change just because there's a divorce that we talked about before having a tie breaking, you know, and putting in in the agreement which county is going to be the the jurisdiction that the kids are going to participate in? Any other like tips on how to keep the kids out of the middle of such a already stressful situation?
Frances Schefter:Yeah, that's a million dollar question for everything, right, like I mean, it's remember that to focus on the child.
Frances Schefter:You know if you need to, if you're both disagreeing, agree to maybe hire an educational consultant.
Frances Schefter:Agree to maybe go to someone like I know someone that used to be a well, he's a mediator still. To maybe go to someone like I know someone that used to be a well, he's a mediator still. But he also just gives a place for parents to talk so they can talk through what's going on and not necessarily help you decide what's better, but help you let each other be heard and gives you that platform, whereas an educational consultant or an advocate could help, like looking at the documents and being like, look, I agree with mom or I agree with dad, Like this is what I see and can help you make that decision that way, because the last thing our kids need is our parents fighting and being stuck in the middle of what's right, and I know it's hard, emotions are high, but it's like at least for this little minute, let's put everything else aside and talk about our child and what's best for our child, especially because it impacts the child's overall school experience and how they're able to thrive in that environment.
Frances Schefter:No-transcript.
Cary Jacobson:Yeah, let's talk about legal protections, common mistakes or misconceptions that parents make when they are advocating for their child's education, especially, you know, during a situation where they may be separating or divorcing.
Frances Schefter:I mean the common mistakes that parents make is they and I don't want to say they trust the school is a mistake, but but they, they put it all in. The teachers know best, they know what they're talking about, they know what's available. I always say educate yourself. Education is power to know. I also say that when parents don't trust their gut, that is such a big mistake. Like we know, moms and dads know we get that feeling and something's not right. Guess what? 99.9% that feeling and something's not right. Guess what? 99.9% of the time something's not right.
Frances Schefter:You know, and so research, you know, google, whatever it is find what's best for your child and also remember that you're just as important as everybody else at that table. You know you know your child best everybody else. Yeah, they might have degrees and all that other stuff, but they haven't been with the child since birth. They haven't seen that, and so it's. It's trust yourself and you know give, give yourself grace and give yourself the space to be able to assert what you want for your child. You know what you want for your child. You know um is is the biggest thing.
Cary Jacobson:Are there any professionals that you regularly recommend um parents to consult with, whether it's, um you know, advocates such as yourself, or, if it is mental health providers, anything along those lines that you recommend to your clients, or does it just kind of depend on the particular situation?
Frances Schefter:No, I definitely have ones that I've used before, like for when we're getting to the point of due process. I use Weinfeld Group a lot out in Maryland and their advocates to be the expert witnesses when it comes to testing. You know Ken Stefano, rebecca Resnick, ryan Hinoja I always get his name wrong. You know there's a lot of people that I'll recommend that I like because their reports are thorough.
Frances Schefter:Stixrud Group you know the person I was mentioning before, the mediator that really gives the space, and what's great about him is he's a father of three Doroid adverse kids, so he lives it too, as that's Eric Feig with Feig Mediation. Yeah, he's great. You know there are different some. What I do just to let your listeners know is like, if they want, if they're like, hey, we need a physical therapist or an occupational therapist, they can call my office and whoever they talk to, whether Shane or Kevin, they can run a report and send them a list of all of them. Yeah, so I have that system that I keep everybody and they just put in the keywords and they can send you, send listeners, because I like to. You know, it's all about building our community, building our family and helping each other.
Cary Jacobson:And it's also helpful to have professionals that we know are going to be helpful for our clients in their particular situations.
Frances Schefter:Right, exactly.
Cary Jacobson:Yeah, For those parents who are just beginning the IEP process and especially, you know, those who may be going through a separation or divorce, what are some of the first steps that they should take to ensure that their child's needs are being met?
Frances Schefter:educate yourself. I mean, that's always the biggest thing. The first steps is, you know, find, find groups, find parent groups. Um, you know, parents of special needs kids we're, you know, definitely a different group. Um, you know, we are just always supportive and always there and always happy to help other parents. You know, and I say we because both my kids, as I said, are neurodiverse. But you know, like, know what, know what, what's available and what options are there so that you can help decide what your child needs. So, I mean, that's always my biggest thing is educate yourself. You know, however you need to do it, however you choose to do it YouTube channels, tiktok, listening to podcasts but like, know what's available. And, yes, it's extremely overwhelming and it's a lot, but that's where parent groups like, hey, I just got this new diagnosis of autism. What do I go, who do I, who do I talk to, and the moms and dads will help you. You know, like, hey, this is a great group. Or join this group and help you navigate and figure out your ways.
Cary Jacobson:Yeah, I do think that you know, in this era of social media, we it is such a great place to such a great place to brainstorm and to get those recommendations, because I don't know what we used to do before. You would be able to ask, you know, thousands upon thousands of people at one time. Who should I use for this? It does make it so much easier.
Frances Schefter:Yeah, yeah, definitely. And it's just like I mean, and and chat GPT, like people are like, well, what do you do with this? What are that? I'm like, look, I'll take the present levels and be like does this tell you everything you need to know? And cut and paste it into chat GPT. Or I'll take a goal and it like doesn't sit right, like something's not right, and like make sure this goal is a smart goal. You know smart, smart, specific, measurable, achievable time, and you know that spacing on the other one. But you know, and chat GPT is phenomenal. I mean, they're not perfect, you need to know what you're looking at and what you're doing, but it's definitely something you can use as a tool to help you it's definitely something you can use as a tool to help you, absolutely yeah.
Cary Jacobson:Can you share a success story of obviously keeping it anonymous where one of your families came to you feeling overwhelmed but, through your guidance, were able to secure the right educational support for their child?
Frances Schefter:I mean. One of the ones I love is that when schools try to say kids are not eligible because they're saying, oh well, the kids getting straight A's is on grade level, so they're not eligible for services, which, with our kids on the spectrum autism and especially with, you know, pda, persistent demand avoidance they are all on grade level.
Frances Schefter:But the problem is is they're not in the classroom 50% of the time or more, and that's where the the they're not accessing the general education curriculum. And so there's been several times now that I've been able to go in and explain to the school that this is not an exclusionary factor. Just because they're on grade level, just because they are, you know, acing everything doesn't mean that they're not eligible, that they're 100%. Goals can be on social, emotional. There doesn't have to be academic goals, educational right. You know, educational impact is not just bad grades and not performing well. You're not accessing the general education curriculum. If you're not in your classroom for 50% of the day, or even 20% of the day, you're not accessing the curriculum. So the couple of times that I've gone into the school system and been able to convince the school that this child is eligible and needs an IEP Like those are the best, those are the ones that that you know like are like. Those are what we need.
Cary Jacobson:And I think that that is as someone who is not, you know, an education attorney and do not have does not have a special needs child, but that is kind of my conception is that most schools won't take steps for providing services if the child is doing well. So it's interesting to know that they can actually receive services, because there's still something that's happening that you know that can be addressed Right, exactly, exactly. What's one final piece of advice that you would give any parent listening today who feels lost or alone in the process of advocating?
Frances Schefter:for their child with special needs. Build your community. You know it's so important. Lean on others that have done it. You know it's such a lonely process wherever you are, whether you know you're with, you're in the process of divorce, you've already divorced, whether you get along or don't get along, just being a parent of a special needs child can be very lonely because unless you're a parent of a special needs child, you don't always get it, no matter how much our friends want to. It's just it's different. And build your community. Find your support system. Lean on your support system. You can't be there a hundred percent for your child and advocate the best for your child If you're not taking care of yourself first.
Cary Jacobson:A hundred percent, yeah. So thank you so much for being here, frances. Your incredible work that you do for families is so inspiring For our listeners. If you'd like to learn more about Frances and how she helps families with that stress-free IEP experience, check out the notes for our show today and you'll have a link for her website. As always, thanks for joining Divorce Diaries. If you found today's episode helpful, please be sure to subscribe and share it with a friend. Until next time.
Intro/Close:Thanks for joining us today on this episode of Divorce Diaries. Remember every journey is unique, but you don't have to navigate it alone. Visit jacobsonfamilylawcom or call 443-726-4912 for support and guidance.