Divorce Diaries: Lessons From the Trenches
Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where host Cary Jacobson, attorney and mediator brings you real stories, hard truths, and practical advice on navigating divorce and family law. Whether you're going through it, considering it, or just curious, this is your place for clarity, confidence, and resilience.
Divorce Diaries: Lessons From the Trenches
EP #21: Self-Representation in Divorce: A Conversation with The Divorce Solutionist, Tracey Bee
Facing family court without an attorney can feel like entering a foreign country without speaking the language. In this illuminating conversation, former family law attorney Tracey Bee reveals how she transformed her 25-year legal career into a mission helping self-represented litigants navigate the complex world of divorce and family court proceedings.
Whether you're considering self-representation by choice or necessity, this episode provides invaluable insights into navigating the system effectively. Tracey offers a refreshing perspective that acknowledges both the challenges and possibilities of representing yourself, while emphasizing that selective professional guidance can make all the difference in your journey through family court.
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But in that time, no matter what area of law I was in, I always worked with people who were not in the position, who didn't have the resources to hire me full out. Especially when I went into private practice as a family law attorney, a lot of people came to me and they didn't have the $5,000 or the $10,000 they needed to retain me. So it was always in the back of my mind that I would do something, create some sort of resource or some sort of something that would help them.
Intro/Close:Welcome to Divorce Diaries, Cary Jacobson brings you real stories, hard truths and practical advice on navigating divorce and family law. Whether you're going through it, considering it or just curious, this is your place for clarity, confidence and resilience.
Cary Jacobson:Welcome back to Divorce Diaries Lessons from the Trenches, the podcast where we dive deep into the complex world of divorce, co-parenting and everything in between, giving you the tools to navigate life's toughest transitions with more confidence and less chaos. I'm your host, Cary Jacobson, and today we're discussing the topic that has become increasingly relevant what happens when you have to, or choose to, represent yourself in family court. Joining me today is Tracey Bee, a former family law attorney with over 25 years of legal experience, who now dedicates her work to empowering self-represented individuals. Tracey helps people navigate the often overwhelming family court system by providing guidance and insight they need to move forward effectively even without an attorney. Tracey, thank you so much for being on Divorce Diaries.
Tracey Bee:Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.
Cary Jacobson:Absolutely. I'd love for you to share with our listeners how you got started from being an attorney with over two decades of experience and what really inspired you to shift your focus from that traditional representation and now helping people represent themselves.
Tracey Bee:Sure, sure. Well, it started where I actually my first profession was in mental health, and my decision to go to law school was a fluke. It was something decided at the very last minute. So it wasn't my lifelong dream to be an attorney. But, honestly, I actually wind up being well suited for it because it gave me the position, it gave me the authority to build on a lot of skills that I needed to help the exact same population I was helping, which is the underserved, the marginalized, the ones that are often neglected. So when I did go to law school, I actually wind up doing a lot of criminal. I did some landlord tenant, I did some abuse, neglect, and a lot of it was family law.
Tracey Bee:But in that time, no matter what area of law I was in, I always worked with people who were not in the position, who didn't have the resources to hire me full out.
Tracey Bee:Especially when I went into private practice as a family law attorney, a lot of people came to me and they didn't have the 5,000 or the 10,000 they needed to retain me. So it was always in the back of my mind that I would do something, create some sort of resource or some sort of something that would help them, and so I took a step back from practicing altogether a few years ago to raise my son, and at the same time, I had a lot of losses. I had to deal with those things and, as a culmination of all of those, I decided that practicing wasn't my thing anymore. It didn't serve me from a soul level, and since this was always in the making to help the people that I'm serving right now, I just decided why not? What better time than now? And so I've been doing it for the past five years, actually solely working on yes, working with the pro se, the self-represented solely working on, yes, working with the pro se, the self-represented.
Cary Jacobson:Okay, I often find, you know, there is such a need for people who don't have the means to hire an attorney for full representation, but they don't, you know, have the knowledge to really go at it themselves, and so it's finding that in between, whether a source like yourself or a self-help clinic, maybe at their courthouse or what have you so there's definitely a need for the representation that you provide. Obviously, it can be so daunting. What are some of the biggest challenges that you see self-represented litigants face when they're going into court for the first time?
Tracey Bee:A lot of people, a lot of people, and I actually had to shift last year because what I realized with a lot of self-representatives even though the information is out there it's 2025, there's information everywhere they don't know how to use it, they don't know what to make of it, they don't know how to apply it, and so a lot of people think that they can just go and get information and they're going to wing it or they're going to figure it out, and a lot of them wind up making the biggest mistakes, not because they don't know the law or because they don't understand the process, because they're getting information and they don't know what to do with it.
Tracey Bee:They don't know how to analyze it, apply it, assess it. They don't know how to do that, and so that's why I spend a lot of time. Making people aware of getting information is absolutely necessary. You have to know, but you also have to know how to use discernment when you get that information. You need to know how to use those critical thinking skills to determine which of that information is reliable, what is accurate and how to use it properly, and so that's a big, big challenge for pro se litigants.
Cary Jacobson:Okay, I'm curious do you work with pro se litigants in a particular jurisdiction, in a geographical area? You know one particular state, or do you work with them all across the United States?
Tracey Bee:I work with them all across the United States. I make sure they're aware of what I can and cannot do and, you know, a lot of times those lines get really, really thin. But I'm also I'm always aware of you know, when I'm getting close to that line. I have a mentor now that I actually confer with. He's a retired attorney who kind of keeps me in check to remind me of you know, hey, you shouldn't be doing these things, or you know. But you know what the reality is. There's a lot of divorce professionals out there who are crossing those lines every day and it's only because of my ethical obligation Am I aware. But a lot of those are divorce coaches, et cetera. They're they're giving legal advice across the country and I'm so I they remind me that I can't do that, that it's not responsible for me to do that, but yes, I work with people all over the country.
Cary Jacobson:Okay, when someone chooses to go pro se, either because they have to or because that's something that they choose and want to do, where do they begin? What is the very first step in that process?
Tracey Bee:Their family court website. If they have it broken down by county, go to the county first and then go to their state. You have to know what your jurisdiction, how they operate, how their layout is, what resources they have, what you can do to help yourself. You have to start there. It'll take, take you a few minutes an hour, whatever, but that is your starting point you need to know. You're not going to know family legal terminology. You're not going to know what the resources. You're not going to even know what the process is, and a lot of pro-state litigants have a gazillion questions and rightfully so, but a lot of those answers are right there on their court's website and I, at at least here in Maryland I find that the courts generally do a pretty good job of providing information.
Cary Jacobson:You know, we at least have a pretty good series of videos and forms and instructions on how to complete the forms. So I do think a lot of answers can be found on the court website.
Tracey Bee:Yes, maryland happens to be. I've studied every single state website. Maryland happens to be one of the great ones. Maryland has a lot of resources. They have a huge database of information on their website. So, yes, I agree.
Cary Jacobson:But, like you said, every court's going to be different, every county is going to be different, so you know there are nuances to each location.
Tracey Bee:So it definitely makes sense that that should be the first place people look Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely.
Cary Jacobson:What are some of the most common mistakes you see self-represented individuals make, and how would you recommend that they avoid them?
Tracey Bee:Oh, I don't know why it triggers me so much, but when pro se litigants ask non-lawyers for legal advice, that drives me crazy. And they take it. They actually take it, and I'm like, oh my God. And then they'll come back weeks or months later and say, oh, the judge was this, oh, the lawyer was this. No, it was you. You were taking legal advice from people who are not qualified to give you that, and not only did you listen, you actually implement it. You took action based on that information.
Tracey Bee:That is wrong. That's a simple step to avoid. That is going to make a huge difference in your case. Don't do that. If you don't have the resources to hire an attorney just for a consultation, please wait until you get that, because I tell pro se litigants you don't have to, because a lot of people are choosing to be pro se. Let me just say that. But I also remind them that at some point, even though you're choosing to self-represent, you still can work with attorneys in different capacities. They're limited scope. You can get consultations periodically. I always encourage pro se litigants to do that. Even when I'm working with them, I can't give you legal advice, so, hey, get a consultation and come back to me, but it's imperative that you get at least two consultations from attorneys and stop listening to non-lawyers tell you what you should and should not do in your case.
Cary Jacobson:Yeah, I see it all the time People posting in Facebook groups asking for information and every single time there is misinformation. Single time there is misinformation. And you're right like take the time, take the resources to gather as much information from a professional who's been trained in this, instead of asking people you know. It's fine to ask people for recommendations and referrals or people who've had, you know, certain experience, but not necessarily for advice on how to do something, Exactly, Exactly.
Tracey Bee:It got so bad. I created a document that said that that's the title. What you think is legal advice or non-legal advice is and these are examples because I want you to know and it's not just for the pro se, I'm sorry, it's for the divorce coaches too that are out there giving legal advice when they should not be. I know they mean well, but they should not. They should not be crossing that line because they're not doing their clients a service. When they do that, they're doing them a disservice. So, yeah, I created a document because it was. I don't know why that's my trigger, Carrie, but it is.
Cary Jacobson:Because we're still ethical professionals and we want to make sure that you know the people that we serve are getting the correct information and they're using that correctly.
Tracey Bee:Yes, absolutely.
Cary Jacobson:So, even though you're not offering legal advice in the traditional sense, but rather education and support, what does that typically look like from a day-to-day perspective when you're working with a client?
Tracey Bee:So there's this thing that I created called this concept, called the legal void. The legal void is the things that I remember when I was practicing, the things that I didn't want my clients asking me, and so that's what I focus on. So when they're trying to understand, hey, when it's a question about the process, for instance, and you know, hey, I need to know the judge issued an order in court. I need to know exactly how long it's going to take for that order to come. And then what's the process when that order gets here, Does my lawyer do I mean, does the other party's lawyer do it? Do I do that? Do I get a chance to issue my own? So things like that. Those are the kind of legal void questions where you know, once I was done, I don't want another phone call or several emails asking me these questions. So I actually sort of fill that overlap.
Tracey Bee:So a lot of my information and resources are really strategic. It's really it's to encourage people to think on their own, to ask the question and to seek the answers from reliable sources. That's my underlying theme. Is everything that happens. You should know exactly what's going on, why and what the process is, and so a lot of what I explained to them is exactly that it's not saying, hey, this is what your judge is ruling on, and this is why it's saying, hey, the process is, he's ruled on it. Now, this is what you need to do and need to be mindful of.
Cary Jacobson:Right, these are the next steps. This is how long you have to potentially appeal or or anything along those lines.
Tracey Bee:Yes, exactly, it's a lot about the process. It's a lot about explaining the process to them the family court process.
Cary Jacobson:Got it and I'm sure, if you're working with people all across the nation, that process is drastically different from one court to the next.
Tracey Bee:Yes, that's why I have a team of paralegals who are very good at researching. Virtual assistants will actually go in. I have connections, you know. I establish partnerships with different people where, if we don't know that county, we have somebody to contact, or my paralegals will actually do the research or reach out to somebody in the county to find out exactly what the process is, so that when we explain it we're correct. In that.
Cary Jacobson:Got it. Do you ever recommend alternative dispute resolution processes, such as mediation or settlement negotiations for those folks who are you are working with?
Tracey Bee:Absolutely. I've noticed. Oh, I used to think I was such a goddess since my chain here. I would think I can rescue anybody.
Tracey Bee:And last year I had to take a little pivot and decide that not everybody is pro se material, not everybody is capable of, or should be, engaging in high conflict litigation, and so I decided that, yes, now I will say to them listen, this is why mediation is a viable option for you, because and I noticed that my people, they always want to know why they're used to me explaining why. So mediation is a viable option for you because of all these things you just told me or you just shared with me, you want to avoid these things. This is mediation is probably a better route for you. Well, tracey, you know, explain to me how I can come up ahead. Come out ahead in mediation when you know the other party is really high conflict.
Tracey Bee:Well, there are ways now. There are mediators now who are trained to deal with high conflict situations, and maybe you should find somebody who is actually trained in that. So, yes, I do more so now than I did before. Before. I used to think everybody can go ahead and represent, self-represent and do it successfully, no matter what Of know. Of course there was some exceptions, but now I'm more inclined to say you know what. I know you want to for all your various reasons. I get it, but I think you should try an alternative route right now.
Cary Jacobson:Right, and I would imagine that, at least for me, one of those key considerations would be if they have children together and if they're going to have to continue to co-parent with one another. Right, because not to say that there is not a place for litigation in those scenarios, but it makes it so much more challenging to have a healthy co-parenting relationship. A healthy co-parenting relationship If they each been on the stand bashing each other as, like how terrible of a parent that they are or why they, why they should have, you know, primary custody or whatever the case may be. It just takes a really different person to come back from that and then be able to be able to, you know, really have a healthy co-parenting relationship.
Tracey Bee:Absolutely. There are people who will still choose to go the litigation route, and I get it, and even co-parents, you know. But and there's there's other routes. If they choose to do that, I'm not going to force them, I can't. But if they choose to do that, I always recommend that they do at least do co-parenting therapy or work with a parent coordinator, or to seek a therapist that's going to work with them in a mediation capacity alongside them doing the litigation, go through the litigation process Right.
Cary Jacobson:In your experience have you had any situations where you know judges may approach a pro se litigant differently than they do someone who is represented?
Tracey Bee:Yes, absolutely 90% of the time, absolutely. That's a lot of the reason why I am an advocate. Now I'm actually working on a completely different set of everything because, yes, the way family court perceives pro se and you know what, carrie, I was one of them I didn't realize that until last year. I didn't realize that a lot of the language, a lot of my attitude, a lot of my approach was sort of alienating pro se. They weren't, you know, even though I was saying, hey, I can help you, they weren't receiving that because I was still speaking lawyer and a lot of them don't want to hear lawyer, a lot of them don't like lawyers, they don't want to, they don't trust us, they don't want. So I didn't know that.
Tracey Bee:So I really worked on sort of changing that. I didn't want to be complicit in the way family court was already receiving them and perceiving them. I wanted to show them hey, I get it. But, yes, judges, lawyers, guardian ad litems, I didn't realize. A lot of divorce professionals as well have told me yes, I automatically, you know, treated them differently, I saw them differently and so, yeah, it still goes on and I'm really trying to change that. I understand the why, but you know the reality is. In the next maybe seven to 10 years, the process shift is going to be greater because of AI and a lot of the rule changes. It's going to change the dynamic, the landscape of family court. So why not sort of treat them or see them differently? You know, yeah, but yeah, it's still definitely an issue.
Cary Jacobson:I agree, and I would imagine it also depends on the jurisdiction, you know, because some courts are used to having more pro se individuals than others. May, you know, I can only speak to Maryland just because that's where I'm located and you know, certain counties definitely are more likely to have a higher pro se population. But I do think that judges, whether it's implicitly or explicitly, have a bias, you know, and that something that they have to work to to really keep in check.
Tracey Bee:Yes, yes, and some and you're right by jurisdiction that you know some of them are really working to. They really make an effort and New York is one of them, believe it or not to actually make sure that self-represented are not treated or made to feel like they're inferior to lawyer represented. So you're absolutely correct.
Cary Jacobson:Yes, Can you share a success story, a moment where someone came to you feeling completely lost, but you were able to help them control their case and achieve a favorable outcome?
Tracey Bee:Yes, I have two, a short-term and a long-term one. I remember late last year well, mid last year, a mom had come to me and she was super concerned with in New Jersey, super concerned with the other parent getting 50-50, because her child, which is about 14 years old, did not want to spend time with her dad because her dad was, you know, verbally abusive and she just didn't want to do that. And so she, the mom, came to me. She just wanted a one hour session with me and she felt defeated, she felt like it was all going to be a waste, because she knows, in New Jersey it's typically 50-50 and she knows, you know, she's heard all the bad stories about how judges really don't want to hear from the kids and you know that's something that's not necessarily acceptable in a family court in New Jersey. And so we talked for an hour and she told me that her judge was open to talking to her daughter, and so I really I explained to her what that meant, the fact that the judge was willing to talk to her daughter and her age and all of these things. And by the time she went to court the next day and later on that day she messaged me and said you know what? I didn't get exactly what I wanted, but the mere fact that you talked me through this thing for an hour you restored my faith. That you talked me through this thing for an hour, you restored my faith, you empowered me and you gave me the courage to go in and speak for not just myself but for my daughter. So that alone was priceless and she couldn't thank me enough for that. So that was a success story.
Tracey Bee:I had another guy that I worked with on trial prep last year. Oh, we worked immensely on helping him prepare for a trial in California. He had a uh they had to go through. It was a bifurcated case so he had to go through the DV portion of it before he can even they can even consider custody the way. That's the way, uh, california does it. And yeah, we spent about eight weeks helping him prepare for his trial. Yeah, we spent about eight weeks helping him prepare for his trial.
Tracey Bee:And, yes, he actually prevailed. He got the outcome he wanted. He was able to get the DV dismissed and so that he was able to get 50-50 custody. And he did it all on his own. I mean, he had me do things like research and, you know, prepare him for court.
Tracey Bee:So we did some role playing. I like to do role playing and I explained to him how to read body language, like I go through everything, I actually work on them with everything, and he won. He actually got 50-50 custody of his kids and he's a dad and he did that in California just with my help. So, yeah, those two stories those are just two of the many that I have, but those are the ones that stand out to me because they I remember how they came to me feeling downtrodden and feeling like the family court system was just so broken they were never going to prevail. And actually, having worked with me is shifted their mindset and sometimes that's all they need is a shift in mindset and um, and they got uh, outcomes that they wanted or they felt good about. So, yes, those are just a couple of examples.
Cary Jacobson:Amazing. Well, that's. That's awesome to hear. And just for our listeners, um, who may not be divorce professionals, um, tracey mentioned DV. That's a acronym for domestic violence. So it sounds like in California they do a domestic violence case first and then, if that, depending on the outcome of that, then they do a custody case. Yes, okay, got it. Well, our final question today is what's one piece of advice that you would like our listeners to take away? Anyone who may be facing family court without an attorney, whether because they can't afford to or they simply choose not to what would you recommend for them if they are feeling overwhelmed?
Tracey Bee:For one, be honest with yourself. Be honest with yourself, accept what is, pay attention to your mindset because, as I just mentioned, that is the underlying basis. If you don't believe that you can do this, then you won't. I don't care who helps you, who guides you, what resources you have. It's not going to do anything. It starts with you.
Tracey Bee:But the other thing is, yes, you have to be on a mission to always seek answers, the right answers, the verifiable answers, the correct answers from sources that you can trust, always. It doesn't end If you are pro se by choice or pro se by force. Either way, you will be doing a lot of seeking out information, research, answers all the time, actually to set time aside every week to do just that. But the other thing is that just because you choose to be pro se if that's who you are you need to understand that lawyers are there for your help. You're, if you need them, when you need them. You can use them in other ways.
Tracey Bee:As I mentioned before, you should be using them. Just because you're choosing to be pro se does not mean they can't coexist. Right, they can coexist. They can mutually exist. Yes, there's tons of resources out there, but nothing is as valuable as at least speaking to two attorneys to give you some insight, because your judge, your court, your courtroom are all very unique to you. Where you are, no better source is out there than an attorney who's been in that courtroom, who's dealt with that judge, who's been in that environment before.
Cary Jacobson:Absolutely so, the key takeaway there being find someone local to the jurisdiction that you're going to be in, because you do want someone who's experienced with the judges in that area.
Tracey Bee:Absolutely. That's priceless because they know the process. You need to know the process. Family court is 80 percent strategy, 20 percent law.
Cary Jacobson:Right, and not only the process, which is definitely important, but also just the judge's personality. What is that particular judge looking for Right Like? That's something that was always drilled into us when I was litigating, which I don't do anymore, but you know it is finding out exactly what their quirks are, what they are looking for specifically, and that can be very challenging because I know here many times we don't know the judge who's going to hear the case until the day before, and sometimes not even then, you know, until it's actually assigned. So that can be really tricky to have that late notice and then be able to prepare for that.
Tracey Bee:Yes, yes, but if you can, absolutely yes, yes.
Cary Jacobson:That's important. Well, tracey, thank you so much for joining me today and for your important work for doing you know supporting these self-represented litigants. Your insight is empowering and your dedication to improving access to justice is truly inspiring To our listeners. If you're heading to family court without an attorney, know this you're not alone and you can always reach out to Tracey and those other attorneys in your local jurisdiction to help you so that you're not fearing it all on your own. Check out the show notes today for resources and links and to learn how you can reach out to Tracey. Where can people find you?
Tracey Bee:www. thedivorcesolutionist. com. I'm on Facebook, I'm on Instagram, I'm on YouTube under the same name, so perfect.
Cary Jacobson:And, as always, thank you for tuning in to Divorce Diaries Lessons from the Trenches, if you found today's episode helpful. And, as always, thank you for tuning in to Divorce Diaries Lessons from the Trenches. If you found today's episode helpful, please subscribe, leave us a review and share it with someone who may benefit. I'm Keri Jacobson and until next time, remember divorce doesn't have to mean defeat. With the right support, you can move forward with purpose and power.
Intro/Close:Thanks for joining us today on this episode of divorce diaries. Remember every journey is unique, but you don't have to navigate it alone. Visit jacobsonfamilylawcom or call 443-726-4912 for support and guidance.