Divorce Diaries: Lessons From the Trenches
Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where host Cary Jacobson, attorney and mediator brings you real stories, hard truths, and practical advice on navigating divorce and family law. Whether you're going through it, considering it, or just curious, this is your place for clarity, confidence, and resilience.
Divorce Diaries: Lessons From the Trenches
EP #23: Rediscovering Yourself After Divorce with Guest Dr. Emma Mansour
The emotional aftermath of divorce often blindsides us when we least expect it. Just when the paperwork is finalized and court appearances end, a profound sense of grief emerges—catching many off guard who anticipated only feeling relief. Dr. Emma Mansour, licensed psychologist and owner of Life Matters Counseling, joins Cary Jacobson to unpack this complex emotional landscape and offer guidance for those navigating the turbulent waters of separation.
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In midlife. I like to say we've been living inside these roles it's partner, it's parent, it's caretaker right that maybe sandwich generation or we're caretaking our older parents, and divorce just disrupts all those structures.
Dr. Emma Mansour:And yeah, so we have to go through this sort of reintroduction to ourselves
Intro/Close:welcome
Intro/Close:to divorce diaries, where Cary jacobson brings you real stories, hard truths and practical advice on navigating divorce and family law. Whether you're going through it, considering it or just curious, this is your place for clarity, confidence and resilience.
Cary Jacobson:Welcome back to Divorce Diaries Lessons from the Trenches, the podcast, where we talk honestly about the challenges and triumphs that come with divorce, co-parenting and rebuilding your life with intention. I'm your host, Cary Jacobson, family law attorney and mediator at Jacobson Family Law, and today we're diving into the emotional side of divorce, something that is really not talked about enough, in my opinion, and it doesn't get enough attention. So to help us do that, we are joined by Dr Emma Mansour, a licensed psychologist speaker and the owner of Life Matters Counseling and Psychological Services in Utah. Emma brings over a decade of experience helping individuals, especially women in midlife, navigate the emotional complexities, separation and rediscover who they are after a major life transition such as divorce. Her compassionate, culturally informed approach is all about helping people move forward with clarity, self-compassion and strength. Thank you so much for being here.
Dr. Emma Mansour:Thanks for having me.
Cary Jacobson:So I'd love to start with the emotional landscape of divorce. In your experience, what is one of the biggest emotional hurdles people face, either at the beginning of their separation or when they're going through divorce?
Dr. Emma Mansour:I think the biggest hurdle people face is a sense of loss. What I see in my practice is people expect to feel a sense of relief. It's all finally over, right, I don't have to meet with lawyers anymore, I don't have to go to court anymore, I don't have to read paperwork anymore. But then there's this deep sense of grief that shows up and I think they feel that you know, haven't I done this already? It's been so long, right, shouldn't this have been taken care of? And so that's sort of the biggest emotional surprise. I see people work through A sense of almost a mix, I think, of grief, shame, fear and even anger. Anger can show up again in a really different way, so it's a deep sense of loss, right, yeah.
Cary Jacobson:And how do people kind of work through that?
Dr. Emma Mansour:Yeah, in therapy it's about not judging those emotions, that those are okay and in fact, grief in the sense of loss of a loved one is also never linear. It's cyclical, and you may have grieved or felt the loss of certain parts of this in the divorce process. You know the legal part of it. Now that that's over, you might have to do an emotional part of it and so really just not judging that this is coming up again. It's not because you didn't complete something Right. This is the next step. Something Right, so this is the next step. So, building that support system, having you know a therapist and just being able to say, okay, this might be a longer process than I expected.
Cary Jacobson:And that's really okay, right? Do you generally work with people who are at the initial stages?
Dr. Emma Mansour:and making decisions to separate during the divorce process or post divorce, or maybe a mix of all three of those. Yeah, it's a mix of all three. So it depends on how familiar people are with therapy, I think. You know, ideally, I think it's best to come in, either when the marriage is maybe failing or starting to fall apart, right. But definitely, if you know, for some people they're caught off guard and they come in in that stage and say I didn't see this coming Right.
Dr. Emma Mansour:And some people feel like they hold it all together really well until the end, and then they come in and like, oh, this is a lot harder than I imagined. On average I would say it's about a 12 to 18 months, if I were to put a time on it that I think a lot of people have some dysregulation around this life change, have some dysregulation around this life change, and then there's some clarity that sits in and I think that what does that look like? That's really hard to say and in some ways it's very subtle. So it might be less wondering about the what if. So it might be less wondering about the what if, or maybe you think about your ex, and it's less dysregulating, right?
Cary Jacobson:Right, it's a passing thought versus getting stuck there for long periods of time. Yeah, so now I know you work a lot with women who are kind of in that midlife part of their world, who may be, you know, redefining themselves, especially after divorce. How does divorce impact their identity and why can this stage of life be?
Dr. Emma Mansour:such a powerful but sometimes challenging time to rebuild. Yeah, you know, in midlife we've I like to say we've been living inside these roles. You know they're it's partner, it's parents, it's it's caretaker right, that maybe sandwich generation, or we're caretaking our older parents, and divorce just disrupts all those structures. Yeah, and yeah. So we have to go through this sort of reintroduction to ourselves. Well, if this huge role doesn't exist, right, as a partner, what happens to that role I had for myself, if my role as parent changes because now I'm co-parenting, right? What does that mean? Right, you know, maybe our parents in their generation don't like this idea of divorce Sometimes that's there, right, how do I deal with that? So, all these structures we've lived in, these roles that we've had, change, and that's really difficult because of how long we've spent building those structures right and doing those roles. So, really giving ourselves.
Dr. Emma Mansour:I think the challenge here is giving ourselves permission to rebuild something. Right, maybe, giving ourselves permission to do things we haven't done in a very long time. Right, find our interests again, right. Reconnect, and it's going to be messy again, right, reconnect and it's going to be messy so, but it's full of possibility, right. It is sort of where I like to guide my clients. Yeah, this is really messy and we might sit here for months saying I don't even know who I am or what I like to do, and maybe you don't have the kids on a weekend and you did nothing but doom scroll and then that's messy. That's the messy part of it. It's going to take some time, but it's full of possibility.
Cary Jacobson:Yeah, I mean, I think that that is definitely something that we all kind of grapple with. In midlife, you know, especially as kids get older, you find that you have more time on your hands. And now, in this situation, you know even more potential time, because if you're co-parenting and you no longer have that partner in the home, it is really learning. What is it that I like, what is it that I that makes me happy, and trying to figure out what does that look like?
Dr. Emma Mansour:now, yeah, maybe it's, you know, taking up a painting class because you have some extra time and maybe you don't trade. Maybe you end up, you know, with with full custody and and that's a whole different you know issue, right, yeah, and maybe then it's a shift to sort of empowerment as part of healing, right, that you can do this, yeah. So, yeah, lots of possibilities right, of ways we can show up for ourselves. I appreciate that we probably have a lot more going for ourselves that we can be proud of in managing our life than we probably give ourselves credit for.
Cary Jacobson:Right Now. I know that many of our clients talk about feeling a deep sense of shame and failure around divorce. I think that's a lot of reasons why people put it off for so long, sometimes even when they know that the relationship needed to end. Why is there such a common reaction, or what you know? Why is that such a common reaction and how can we restart to reframe that narrative?
Dr. Emma Mansour:Yeah, I love this question because I think flipping the narrative is really something we should be putting out there a lot more, or having the conversation around a lot more. Putting out there a lot more or having the conversation around a lot more. There are relationships where people have unfortunately have to, you know, chronically silence their voices, maybe suppress their needs. I like to say for some people they've had to sort of shape shift themselves just to keep the peace, right, we know those relationships are out there and and over time they've lost touch with their values and, you know, their bodies, cues on their sense of self and what is safe and leaving those relationships and what is safe and leaving those relationships, I, I do not consider that a failure, right, and in fact I think it's a. It's a, it's an act of self-respect that this was not a place that I was okay staying and that's not the end of the story, right, it's. It's it's a start of reclaiming a life and that's sort the end of the story, right, it's a start of reclaiming a life and that's sort of in that, you know, maybe more negative, abusive relationship realm of the spectrum In terms of culturally. Yeah, I think there's some work to do there as well, right?
Dr. Emma Mansour:You know we are so as humans, driven towards connection, right, that is our survival, and so divorce brings up this vulnerability. Right that, if we lose this connection, what does this mean about what we're worth? Right? Are we lovable? Right? Have we become unlovable? Right? And so all of that, I think, is wrapped up in this idea that divorce is some sort of failure, right that we're not good at relationships, so no one's going to love me again. And you know, on the extreme end, I've heard clients say things like you know, I'm going to die alone. Right, it's really painful, but it's also so deeply human, right, that is something that we fear, because that goes against our survival. That's not optimal for us. So, you know, in some ways I like to shift it to you know, well, who are we becoming now? Right? There's so much left on this journey, right? So who are we becoming now? Right? How did I honor myself in this process? Right? How can I still honor myself? And that's the self-compassion piece, right, right at the end, right?
Cary Jacobson:absolutely. It's just the beginning of a new chapter, yeah, but I imagine that grieving and I think you mentioned this before really does happen during divorce, not just for the, but just for the idea of the version of the you know, the life that we thought we were going to have. Right, how do you help clients process that loss?
Dr. Emma Mansour:Yeah, it's really slow at first. So there's a lot of impatience that I that I see show up, right. Well, why is this not happening fast enough? In fact, you know it's interesting the statistics on how men and women sort of process post-divorce tells us that, you know, men are more likely to jump faster or earlier into the dating pool than women are. And I think this is what's triggering that right, sort of like we've got to move past this faster. Right, I'm supposed to be done with this part, right. And again, it's that connection piece. We're driven to connection, so we're going to go find it somewhere else.
Dr. Emma Mansour:Women tend to not want to do that. They're a little more reticent, like, oh, this was really hard, um, so it's very slow. But growth, I think, is possible and I think it starts with self-trust. That's where I like to start with people right, so they've spent so much time in fear and doubt. But getting back to trust, not trust of others that's a big one in divorce. Like, how do I trust a relationship again? How do we trust yourself, right, that you can make good decisions, right, you can honor your boundaries. Right, that you can find joy? You know that that's something that you can create a relationship that brings you joy Right.
Dr. Emma Mansour:That you deserve to be happy, yeah, that you can find someone you want to meet. Right, that you can be alone. I mean, a lot of the work is spent just figuring out how to enjoy being alone. Right, that you can think about walking up to your house and there's nobody there, but actually feel excited to do that at the end of the day. Right, that's part of healing too, right, like, yeah, there's no one there, but I really want to be home and then that kind of goes into that self-compassion.
Cary Jacobson:What role does self-compassion and mental health practices play in healing after divorce, especially if for those people who do feel like they've lost themselves in the process?
Dr. Emma Mansour:Yeah, I think self-compassion is just not negotiable in this process. It really allows you to I describe it to people as it allows you to treat yourself as someone worth caring for, and a lot of times in the divorce process, if it's messy, caring for yourself has taken the backseat, right. So how do you care for yourself, even when you're at your lowest right, where you feel like you got no resources left? And so it really is a non-negotiable. You know, and in some ways you have to. You know it's a relationship it's taken two of you to create, and probably two of you have contributed in some way to the pain. And so how do you do self-compassion?
Dr. Emma Mansour:I hear people say, well, how can I be compassionate to myself when I know, right, that in some ways I can see how I've contributed to the pain in the relationship? You absolutely can, right, you can still hold yourself with kindness Right and and work to grow in the areas where you needed some work. Right, that's still possible. You were doing your best. Right, you didn't know some things. Right, that was still possible. You were doing your best. Right, you didn't know some things. Right, you made some mistakes along the way.
Dr. Emma Mansour:Right, it's life. We do that, so we can still acknowledge harm and have a capacity to grow, and that is self-compassion, right? So maybe you speak to yourself more kindly, more gently, right? Maybe you are in therapy and you're meeting with a counselor that's self-compassion. Maybe it's being more mindful of your relationships you have around you still, and how you foster those. You know, I like the classic question of you know what would you say to a friend still, and how you foster those. You know I like the classic question of you know what would you say to a friend?
Dr. Emma Mansour:Yep, I was just thinking that, yeah, you probably wouldn't be like yeah no one should ever be with you. Don't say it to yourself. Yeah, yeah, so there's some pretty good work out there by the author is Kristen Neff. She's probably the main person who speaks on self-compassion.
Cary Jacobson:And she'll talk a lot on on, for your work is bringing culturally informed lens. How can culture and upbringing shape the way someone may experience divorce or emotional transitions?
Dr. Emma Mansour:Yeah, so by culture I mean you know culture in terms of you know race and ethnicity. So I think it's always important to understand what divorce means culturally. So there are some cultures where this is quite harmful to reputation and has quite long lasting effects on what is possible for the person in their sort of future. So when talking about empowerment, it is really important to know what's possible and what restraints they actually have. You know, culture can also be religion, right. So there are some religious constraints or sort of restrictions placed on what's possible with divorce or what that does mean for a person. So I'm in Utah, so for us it's the LDS faith and that has some pretty interesting implications for people.
Dr. Emma Mansour:And then, interestingly enough, and quite recently I think, culture is also age. So there's an increase in, you know, sort of that divorce in sort of the latter years of life, and that's really interesting in the therapy room because that has implications that in the younger years maybe are not as important. So what do we do with, you know, health care, right, and disease and sort of? You know it's not am I going to die alone, but like who's going to take care of me if I get really sick here, right, right, and we had planned, you know, this type type of retirement, and now I don't know what to do. Um, and and that's really that can be really scary absolutely a different type of fear that enters the room at that point. So it's yeah, it's a lot, it's a lot of things um culture isn't just, you know race and ethnicity.
Dr. Emma Mansour:It's sort of what context do your clients exist in and what pressures are those placing on them in terms of what the fallout could be of making this decision Right?
Cary Jacobson:Yeah, there's so many things that definitely impact how people are going to kind of perceive divorce in the first place and also kind of experience it based on their culture. Yeah, I always like to hear you know some success stories. Can you share with our listeners an anonymous story where you've worked with a client who has transformed through this process and found strength or clarity that maybe they didn't really expect?
Dr. Emma Mansour:Oh, there's so many. There really is. You know, my. The ones I really enjoy are are the people who, the clients who go back to school going to have any money Right, then they, they do, they, they. They find a job that they never thought they'd like and they, they flourish in it. Right, and they find strength and they are great leaders and they make it and they have more money than they thought would ever be possible.
Dr. Emma Mansour:Right, they're clients who, um, you know, all of a sudden get to decorate their house the way they want it and they love it and it's their sanctuary, and they, they don't even you can't even imagine what their old place was, right, yeah, they're clients who find new relationships and they're they've never been happier, right, yeah, and they wish they had met those people sooner, because now they've got less time with them and they just put smiles on your faces. It's a joy to watch and as a therapist, it's really hard, because when you meet them at their lowest point, you really just want to say this stupid thing like it all gets better, yeah, but you know that that's dumb and you can't say that. But I'll say it now it really can get better, yeah, and have faith and with the right support, it it will. Yeah, and and you know I'll say, look back at all the times in your life where things have felt really terrible, not lasted.
Cary Jacobson:Right. I see it so often in like Facebook groups, you know, maybe local groups or specialty divorce groups, people who are at that beginning stage and so many women come in and support and talk about. You know how great um things are now on the other side, right, like they never thought that they were going to be in that place and now they're flourishing and they are so much happier. But it does take that work. But you know, if you had asked them months or even years ago, would they have expected that to happen, and not necessarily, but you know it is. It is nice to see that support, letting them know others know that there is possibility out there.
Dr. Emma Mansour:Yeah, there will be a big chunk of time where it won't feel possible, but that does not mean that it isn't yeah.
Cary Jacobson:Yeah, well, before we wrap up, what's one piece of advice that you would give someone who might be listening, um, that's in the emotional fog of divorce and doesn't know how to move forward?
Dr. Emma Mansour:Yeah, I would say, um, divorce is never easy, but it doesn't have to be the end of the story. It's. It's very often presented as the end of the story, but it is not. And get the right support. The right support is going to be crucial. Get the support that's going to build in the self-compassion piece, that's going to build in the space to rediscover who you are, and it can be the beginning of something really meaningful. Um, and it can be really hard to focus on yourself, though, right, like, the pull is real, especially if you have children. This isn't about me, this is about the kids, and that is so true, um, and there's a part of this that has to be about you, right. So healing is possible, not because everything becomes perfect Do you want to say that but because you do get a greater sense of what's true for you. But find the support. It is really crucial.
Cary Jacobson:Absolutely Well, Dr Emma Mansoor, thank you so much for being with us today. Can you let our listeners know how they can find out more about you and the services that you provide?
Dr. Emma Mansour:Yes, so unfortunately I can't provide services outside of the state of Utah, but if you are in Utah you can go to our website it is wwwlifematterpsychcom, or you can give our offices a call. It's 385-219-4980.
Cary Jacobson:Awesome and we'll be sure to put that link in the show notes. And for all of you who are listening, be sure to check out her website so that you can learn more about the services that she can provide or you know more information. And if you're going through divorce and you need legal help to move forward with clarity and peace of mind and you happen to be in Maryland, be sure to check out our website, which is JacobsonFamilyLaw. com, to schedule a consultation. Thanks for tuning in to Divorce Diaries Lessons from the Trenches. Be sure to give us a follow, leave us a review and share this episode with someone who might need it. Have a great day.
Intro/Close:Thanks for joining us today on this episode of divorce diaries. Remember every journey is unique, but you don't have to navigate it alone. Visit jacobsonfamilylawcom or call 443-726-4912 for support and guidance.