Divorce Diaries: Lessons From the Trenches
Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where host Cary Jacobson, attorney and mediator brings you real stories, hard truths, and practical advice on navigating divorce and family law. Whether you're going through it, considering it, or just curious, this is your place for clarity, confidence, and resilience.
Divorce Diaries: Lessons From the Trenches
EP #31: Inside Child Welfare: Lessons on Custody, Mediation, and Family Law with Guest Lance Hillsinger
Attorney and mediator, Cary Jacobson, is joined this week by Lance Hilsinger as he pulls back the curtain on the misunderstood world of child welfare after spending 34 years on the frontlines. His candid conversation reveals surprising truths about the system designed to protect our most vulnerable children.
Lance's advice resonates with compassion and practicality: normalize life for children caught in custody disputes, recognize that fathers face unique challenges in the system, and remember that imperfection is part of being human. His book "In Place of the Parent: Inside Child Protective Services" offers deeper insights, with all royalties supporting humanitarian work in Ukraine. For anyone navigating the complex intersection of family law and child protection, Lance's perspective offers both clarity and hope.
Visit jacobsonworkshop.com to learn more.
For all those years, except for the first year, I worked on court cases one time or another, but really my dream assignment was what we colloquially call a court worker. So when a child is put in protective custody, either by child welfare or by the police, of course you have to file a petition right away. Petition is filed within 48 hours, or follows the 40 hours, and you have a hearing the next day, and then you have various hearings until the jurisdiction and dispositional hearings. I would handle the case until the dispositional case.
Intro/Close:Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where attorney Cary Jacobson brings you real stories, hard truths and practical advice on navigating divorce and family law. Whether you're going through it, considering it or just curious, this is your place for clarity, confidence and resilience.
Cary Jacobson:Welcome back to Divorce Diaries Lessons from the Trenches, the podcast where we talk about the emotional, practical and legal realities of divorce and how families can move forward in healthier ways. I'm Cary Jacobson, divorce attorney, mediator and advocate for out-of-court resolutions. My guest today is Lance Hillsinger, who has spent 34 years as a child welfare social worker. During his career, lance testified in juvenile court approximately 75 times and participated in countless court-ordered mediations, the majority of which were successful. Thankfully, his decades of frontline experience has given him a unique perspective on how the legal system impacts children and families.
Cary Jacobson:Lance is also an author of In Place of the Parent Inside Child Protective Services, as well as other books, and offers a rare and honest look inside the world of child Protective Services, as well as other books, and offers a rare and honest look inside the world of child protection. Today, he's joining us to share how the law has changed and when it comes to social worker placement, kids in protective custody, and why mediation can be such a powerful tool for families in conflict. Thank you so much for being here, lance.
Lance Hillsinger:Well, thank you for having me.
Cary Jacobson:Absolutely Well. I'm so thankful that you're here to share a little bit more about your experience as a child welfare social worker and working with kids in mediation in this, you know, very difficult time. So can you share a little bit about kind of your career over the years?
Lance Hillsinger:I was a child welfare social worker for 34 years. The first five years with Los Angeles County and then the rest with San Luis Obispo County, which is just north of Santa Barbara. Okay, from all those years, except for the first year, I worked at court cases one type or another, but really my dream assignment was what we colloquially call a court worker. So when a child's put in protective custody, either by child welfare or by the police, of course you have to file a petition right away. Petition is filed within 48 hours, or filed within 48 hours and you have a hearing the next day, and then you have various hearings until the jurisdiction and dispositional hearings. I would handle the case until the dispositional case or unless it was dismissed earlier than that. California is unique in that social workers file petition. In most states it's an assistant attorney general or some other position or a licensed attorney. So we had a quasi-prosecutorial role because we have to make our case in court. We were represented in court by county council, but as far as writing the petition and the supporting documents, that's on the social worker, and so I very much enjoyed that job.
Lance Hillsinger:Of course there were tough days from time to time and San Luis Obispo County was really good because we were a small county. We had one judge at any one time, we had several different judges over my career, but only one juvenile judge at a time and only six or seven regular attorneys that did juvenile work and we would set cases. When you started off talking about mediation, if we didn't resolve things a lot of things people would the social workers report was okay or they'd have little 1 minor issue that we could just resolve. A court I would say maybe less than a third of the cases went to mediation. They resolved some other way and we always had mediation before a trial, almost always set mediation first and we would set it right from court. So there were certain days that the mediation service had set aside for us. So we would just say, okay, we're going to have the Smiths, okay, the Smiths case is going to be Thursday afternoon and the Jones Tuesday morning or whatever.
Lance Hillsinger:So that was very good and I think that because it was a smaller county, it was easier for people to respect each other and to know. You know, did I have an off day? Did someone else have an off day? But most of the time I think that people came through and most mediations were successful um, uh, and they resolved things. I think because the mediators were very good. They understood child welfare, but they were not attorneys, they were not, um, retired judges or anything like that. They were just ordinary people who were trained to be mediators. Since they ordered, they were nice. I don't know their training. Besides, they got trained as a mediator.
Cary Jacobson:Lance, you mentioned that you know part of the reason the mediations were so effective is because you had a small county and you, you know we're really working with a lot of the regular people. I think that that makes such a huge difference because you get to know each other and you get to know. You know quirks and things and really know more about each other's personalities. And also it makes it easier to help move the cases along when you know the other players involved.
Lance Hillsinger:Right, and I just don't want anybody the cynics out there. Oh, it was a real cozy relationship and you know something? No, people still had their roles. They still advocated for their clients what they wanted to do. How do we write a better future Right? And one of the things that I try to do as a social worker, you know we file a petition. New facts come in, things get clarified. I made it my point to file an amended petition and sometimes that made the petition stronger, sometimes it made it weaker, but I always wanted to go with the facts and that's all that we want. The CPS gets accused of making things up all the time and distorting things, and so I try to say when it comes in and it wasn't 100% perfect to try to make it better. If I need a violent petition, I did so.
Cary Jacobson:Yeah. Do you think more counties and states should invest in similar programs?
Lance Hillsinger:I think that they do by and large. I do think that there's a push on mediation. Yes, I think different counties handle it differently, different states. Well, one of the things I think that we need to take in mind with child welfare cases is that 90% of our clients at least 90% are poor enough to qualify for point-appointed attorneys. So when your kids are taken away, you can encounter California law, you can have an attorney appointed to represent you. That's not true in all child welfare cases, in all juvenile court. In some states it's considered a civil proceeding and the parents do not get even if they're poor, do not get an attorney. And that's just my personal beef there. I think that's wrong. I think that's going to go subventionally up to the US Supreme Court. And the other thing is, as you well know is in family law, about two-thirds of the clients are unrepresented litigants, and so we're talking about people who are struggling with the system you know forms and what have you and procedures, stuff that's not part of their daily life.
Cary Jacobson:Right. So I'd love for you to share a little bit more about what inspired you to write In Place of a Parent your book.
Lance Hillsinger:Well, I started writing In Place of a Parent when I was still a social worker in LA County. There was a lot of things going on. When I left LA County I had 77 kids in my caseload. That's far, far too many and the system had a lot of growth pains and was really, you know, stumbling along in a lot of ways and that was my one way. If I wanted to make it better During the course of my career, it did get better in a lot of ways and that was my one way. If I wanted to make it better during the course of my career, it did get better a lot of ways and I never got to had the time to finish up only in retirement. That I did to take those some of those experience, add them on to what I had in San Luis Obispo County and and finish up with a book that I hope would, you know, make the system a little bit better and also inspire people to be foster parents or CASA workers they're called guardian lighters in some states because I wanted that. It was very helpful.
Lance Hillsinger:A lot of people complain about the CPS. Does this CPS, does that the system better if we have more foster homes? Just from the simple practicality. If you have to drive 45 minutes to a foster home, that's very inefficient as opposed to having to drive you 10 minutes. The more foster homes, the more efficient the system is. And just to point out, just to clarify, relatives are the preferred preference and legally and just morally they are preferred and just over half of placements tend to be with relatives.
Cary Jacobson:Yeah, and when you were doing the mediations, who typically were involved in those? Was it the parents, the placements, the social workers? Who else may be a party to that?
Lance Hillsinger:The social workers, the mom and the dad, or usually just the mother and the father and their respective attorneys and the county attorney. We didn't have other professionals come in. We generally or relatives, unless if it was understood that that was going to come needed for a particular case, but definitely not therapists or anybody like that or other professionals Once in a while relative, but generally just the mother and father and not the boyfriends or the girlfriends either.
Cary Jacobson:Right, just the parents in the case Got it.
Lance Hillsinger:Right.
Cary Jacobson:So you know you've been in the child welfare world for several decades. What stands out to you as some of the most important lessons about supporting kids in these custody disputes?
Lance Hillsinger:I think one of the things is just to normalize. You know as much as kids can go out and and just have regular days and just just be a kid and play and do homework and have have fun and and be a kid. That's very important. And sometimes I think that you know mental health services for and sometimes I think that you know mental health services for children were relatively easy to obtain. But it's usually not the children, it's the parents that need the therapy usually, and especially for something that doesn't quite fit into DSM diagnosis. It can be really hard to get for somebody who doesn't have insurance for them to get health, mental health care, because you have two obstacles One you have access obstacle there may not be an agency, there may be money and issues. And the other is parent might think, oh, I'm fine, I don't need therapy, when they really do and they have things to work on. I do think that those parents that we would give parents a case plan just at the very first hearing and then it would get revised at subsequent hearings as necessary to start working on things. So we wanted people to try to give the message that we want you to have your kids, we don't want them to flounder on Congress, we don't want them to flounder on car, and here's here's the steps to do that.
Lance Hillsinger:Roughly two thirds of the cases that come in juvenile court are neglect due to substance abuse. People think of all the abuse kids and you know that's not very common. Under California law a child under the age of five who is seriously physically abused is what we call a 300E case. I had about one of those a year. A case that's just regular physical abuse, that's the only issue, not drugs, not alcohol, not mental health, not anything. Those were 300a cases. I might have one of those just once every couple of years, and so really there's usually multiple issues going on. And we had a pretty good system where we could get the because most people in the county have been in the county for a while. If they have a family law record, we could get to that access fairly easily a divorce or family custody order in another county. That got to be difficult to find those orders, get the track record and that kind of thing and find out what, what happened to the other county. That's still where the system could be improved.
Cary Jacobson:Oh, that's interesting. So there's not a statewide access to records that are filed as far as family law cases are concerned?
Lance Hillsinger:At least not, not for social workers. I could go down. If the case was local, I could go down and go to the clerk's office and say I want to file such and such and they would interoffice it to me. They were very nice, they'd make copies and then send it interoffice to me and then I could read the family law file at my leisure and not have to sit there. But if it was another county it was awkward and sometimes difficult. Yes, wasn't that often, but when it happened it was awkward.
Cary Jacobson:Right Understand. So you mentioned that most of the cases are really related to substance abuse issues. So it's really making sure those parents have the resources they need to get the treatment necessary so that you know then the kids can be returned to them, is that?
Lance Hillsinger:the. That's correct, and there were three or four residential programs for mothers and children to get their kids back while they were early in treatment. The child could be returned to the mother's care in a residential facility, but for fathers there wasn't anything. There was very few residential programs in general and I've never even heard of a program where a father could have his children with him in a treatment program and so you know.
Lance Hillsinger:So sometimes I had kids, fathers and los angeles treatment programs, but they were just just strictly for men, and so it was really harder than if your place, if you're the dad and your treatment program is in los angeles county or or modesto or wherever which is good distance away. Keeping visitation, keeping contact, having supervised visitation gets to be a very logistical nightmare.
Cary Jacobson:Right, especially if they have limited resources and maybe no vehicle and that sort of thing.
Lance Hillsinger:That's right.
Cary Jacobson:Yeah, that makes it challenging. Can you share an example of a mediation or a case that had particular positive outcome for one of the families you were working with?
Lance Hillsinger:That's funny because my recollection is always the ones that went bad. It's like it's you know one bad experience. I have to tell the story. I had one bad experience at Sears years and years ago and I didn't walk into a Sears store for years and years because of that. So the bad experiences always stand out.
Lance Hillsinger:I got to tell you that most of them worked out, they were happy, and people would say what power is this? And I said at some level it's just a piece of paper. But both of you respect the piece of paper at the end of the day, because there's many ways people can subvert orders or frustrate them. That would go under the level of having you know contempt charge or something like that. It's very hard to get somebody you know on that when they have failed to comply with court orders, and so it has to be the buy-in.
Lance Hillsinger:And I think that most of the time is that I would tell parents your kids are going to tell you when things are better. It's it's you don't have the audience, it's not really the judge, it's not really me, it's it's you. You don't have the audience, it's not really the judge, it's not really me, it's really your children, and your and your children are going to tell you that when things are better and and that they're going to look happier and they're going to be going, you know they're just going to. You're going to enjoy them more because they're not going to be as stressed out.
Cary Jacobson:Absolutely Because things have improved. Yeah Well, is there any advice that you would give any of our listeners related to you know the types of cases that you experienced.
Lance Hillsinger:Well, I know that there's a great deal of frustration there, a lot of from relatives. They will see their, their ne narrative well, nephew of their narrative well, niece or their grandchild or whatever you know. And, and, yes, I would urge people to report and be as objective as possible um, and what may be a big concern to you and maybe a very small concern to the system, because we see really really real bad cases. So my advice would be like, don't expect perfection from people you know, as long as the children are safe and that kind of thing. I think that one of the things that kind of strikes me is that the father should be a little more active, you know, not just in their children's lives, but proactive, legally, not necessarily in an antagonistic way, but just not be afraid of the system. And a lot of the dads are to the system, uh, and a lot of the dads, uh, are one.
Lance Hillsinger:One attorney asked me. She asked me why does mr so-and-so, who's the not offending father? Um, why doesn't he file for custody? Says mary, why don't you change your own oil in your car, since you're afraid you're going to make things worse? Oh, yeah, that's right now, she got it. She got it why? Why they don't do it, and so I think that there needs to be. There are legal aid societies out there, but, um, they, they don't reach out to men too much, to be honest about that, and and a lot of times, yes, there's plenty of men who screw up, but, you know, neither gender has a monopoly on, on virtue. That's what I would tell people. Um and uh, a little courtesy goes a long ways, and I know one of your podcasts you mentioned this system where people have their messages to the acts recorded and monitored, and I think that's an excellent thing, and I had one client do that and he was not going to give that up because he liked that protection. It was just a case of just as I was retiring.
Cary Jacobson:Yeah, so a lot of couples that we work with- I lost you there.
Cary Jacobson:I said, a lot of couples that we work with use a program called Our Family Wizard I think is what you're kind of referring to which is a co-parenting app that allows people to send messages back and forth. They can use shared calendars, but one of the like in the messages it kind of has like a tone meter which will allow them to correct their tone in the message before they send it, so it'll be less offending. Correct their tone in the message before they send it, so it'll be less offending.
Lance Hillsinger:So it's definitely one that I highly recommend for folks to use. You know, to keep everything together.
Cary Jacobson:Yes, yes, yeah Well, lance, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom as well as your decades of experience. Just custody and child welfare issues are some of the most challenging parts of you know, custody cases that we see, and your perspective really helped shed some light on the system and some of the solutions. I'm so thankful to hear that mediation was successful in so many of your cases and for all of our listeners. You can learn more about Lance's work and his books, including In Place of a Parent Inside Child Protective Services, by checking out the links in our show notes. Lance, where can people find you today?
Lance Hillsinger:My website is LanceHillsinger. net. That's really the best place to look for me. I also have Spotify, linkedin and that kind of thing, but really the website's the best. Just, incidentally, all the royalties from In Place of the Parent go to RASOM, a humanitarian program working in Ukraine. There's lots of worthy causes out there. That's the one that I believe in. I looked at the Charity Navigator and other places to make sure that they were a legitimate organization and they are, and so I urge people either to donate directly or buy one of my books. The Royalties Go Directly to a Worthy Cause.
Cary Jacobson:Well, thank you so much for that. I appreciate it and for the rest of you listeners, if you're looking for resources to support your own divorce journey, for mediation, flat feeds, legal services, check out our Stan store at stan. store/jacobsonfamilylaw. And thanks again for tuning in to Divorce Diaries Lessons from the Trenches Thanks for joining us today on this episode of Divorce Diaries.
Intro/Close:Remember every journey is unique, but you don't have to navigate it alone. Visit JacobsonFamilyLaw. com or call 443-726-4912 for support and guidance.