Divorce Diaries: Lessons From the Trenches

EP #37: Divorce by the Numbers: Creating Clarity and Confidence with Guest Allison Terrill, CDFA

• Cary Jacobson, Esq. • Episode 35

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In this episode of Divorce Diaries: Lessons from the Trenches, host Cary Jacobson is joined by Certified Divorce Financial Analyst Allison Terrill to explore how financial experts can help individuals navigate the complex financial aspects of divorce. From understanding asset division and business valuations to planning for long-term stability, this conversation sheds light on the strategies that bring confidence and clarity to the divorce process.

Subscribe for more candid guidance on divorce, custody, and co-parenting, share this with someone who needs a steady voice, and leave a quick review to help others find it. For legal support, visit jacobsonfamilylaw.com. To connect with Catherine or book a complimentary strategy session, head to coveryourassetsdivorce.com.

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Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where attorney Carrie Jacobson brings you real stories, hard truths, and practical advice on navigating divorce and family law. Whether you're going through it, considering it, or just curious, this is your place for clarity, confidence, and resilience.

Cary Jacobson:

Welcome back to Divorce Diaries Lessons from the Trenches, the podcast where we talk about the emotional, practical, and legal realities of divorce and how to move forward with strength and clarity. I'm your host, Carrie Jacobson, divorce attorney, mediator, and advocate for out-of-court solutions. Today we're talking about one of the most stressful aspects of divorce, finances. My guest today is Catherine Holland. She is a seasoned financial planner who has dedicated her career to empowering women during one of life's most challenging transitions. Catherine knows from personal experience that divorce can feel like watching your house burn down one item at a time. For her, though, the work is not just about the numbers. It's about helping women rebuild their lives and rise from the ashes. As a certified divorce financial analyst, Catherine helps her clients untangle joint finances, understand alimony, and build a stable financial future. Her mission is to provide compassionate guidance and practical solutions that help women step into financial empowerment. Catherine, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. Absolutely. Well, I would love to hear a little bit more about your personal journey and what spot inspired you to become a financial planner and specializing in the divorce process.

Kathryn Holland:

Yeah, uh so I got divorced 11 years ago. And before the divorce, I was a stay-at-home mom who was actually homeschooling my kid because I was watching public school kill his sense of curiosity. Um, and I had let my husband handle all the finances. I thought it was boring and that I was way too busy anyway with all of my other obligations. And so when we could no longer be married, on top of the guilt when I told my son that we were getting divorced and the anxiety about what was going to do and the fear about having to re-enter the workforce, I realized that I had put myself in a very vulnerable position willfully by not understanding the house and the finances. And so during after the divorce, I decided to interview some financial advisors and they all kind of patted me on the head and they were like, oh, don't worry, we'll take care of it. And I was like, that's what got me here in the first place. I don't want that. Um, so I started to study it, and it turns out for me it wasn't boring. And in fact, I got a little bit angry. I have definitely a big chip on my shoulder about this, but I got angry that at myself for not doing this work before. And at most of society where nobody talked to me about this before and how important it is to understand it. And so I decided to become the person that I needed when I was going through my divorce. I needed a career anyway. So here we go. Well, that's an amazing story, you know, to turn something like a divorce and a vulnerability into now a uh a career where you're helping people who were in a similar situation. Now you've described divorce as watching your house burn down one item at a time. Can you explain what you mean by that graphic depiction? Yeah, um, it's pretty powerful language. Uh I just it felt like when we were going through that divorce, it felt like you we would drag the couch out onto the lawn and set it on fire while we argued over who got it. And then you bring the dishes out and you set it on fire. And just how hard is negotiating over who gets which Christmas ornament was the hardest one for me. It was because it that's your life you built together thinking it was gonna be forever and you were gonna have these memories and cherish them. And now you're not even sure you want to look back on that year, but you also want your kid to remember it. And yeah, it just it felt like at least when your house accidentally burns up, it's all gone at once, and you don't have to mourn each thing individually. But during the divorce, you do, and it's just so painful, it sucks, right? No, that is definitely a challenging situation, it's such an emotional component, right? Like even taking the you know the finances out of it, which obviously are complicated, like you said, it's the the things that hold memories that are so challenging. Yeah, yeah. And it's true, like it's true of everyone, and it's true of the finances too. I'm I'm working with a client right now, and the wife did not know that they had significant assets and they had been living kind of a very thrifty, frugal lifestyle the whole 30-year marriage. And so when she needed the divorce, she was terrified that she wasn't gonna be okay. And I just just sitting there with her to let her know how much she was going to be able to work with going forward was such an impactful moment for me, too, as well as her. She just started to cry because that relief, uh, the life that she'd had before is not the life that she's going to have to continue cut but cut in half. Right. Yeah. And it's interesting that she's actually, it sounds like gonna walk away with more than she anticipated because she didn't know what what she had to begin with. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Does that happen? Do you do you run across a similar situations like that often? Uh yeah, I do actually. So just because you don't you haven't been paying attention and you trust the person that you pledged to be a partner to your whole life to let you know if there's maybe a little extra money and what do you want to do with this money? And frequently, and this is a broad generalization, but the the masculine energy tends to try and build the whole time. And this is why people are resistant to retirement nowadays, too. Is there all they see is the importance of building this thing, but they're building a house that nobody's going to enjoy because there's been so much stress involved in it. And so um, I do see that a lot with with the women and with the men that I work with, a lot of them are most concerned with keeping as much as they can. It's yeah. Yeah. So for any of our listeners who may be unfamiliar, can you um explain what a certified divorce financial analyst is? Obviously, the the abbreviation is a CDFA, um, and what you do to help people who you're working with um during the divorce process. Yeah. So a certified divorce financial analyst can help you in a number of ways. Um we can, if you're curious to know what you might have or if divorce is even a possibility, you can find one to help you gather that information and they'll let you know what it looks like. So maybe you're curious to know what that would look like. And sometimes that'll happen, and the couple will realize that they have enough money and that it's not worth fighting about anymore. And if that was the one thing that was getting them to think about divorce, we can fix that sometimes. It's just it's the not knowing that's so hard. So, so kind of a pre-divorce analysis of what that would look like. Uh, we can help you gather the information, we can work with your attorneys to figure out creative solutions. So if you go in front of a court, that is called the adversarial system. Right. And when it when you're divorced, which only happens in about two to three percent of divorces, really, and you know, that what we see on TV and movies of just fighting, and then a judge is like, no, and she gets the kids and everybody's worse off than ever before, doesn't really happen that often. We do see a lot of contentious divorce and a lot of arguments and dragging their feet, but if it comes to a judge, they're just gonna split the baby down the middle. Yeah, that's what they do, and you don't have to do it that way. Um, sometimes if let's say you received you you worked for Chevron your whole life and it was very meaningful to you and you want to keep all of your Chevron stock, if we're not in the adversarial system, we can say, okay, this person keeps this in exchange for that. Right. Additionally, we're looking at what the taxable yield, what what it's gonna look like from an after-tax perspective. Right. So if somebody inherits a brokerage account that's that's taxed at 15% versus a retirement account that's taxed at your income tax rate, that brokerage account that's only taxed at 15% is actually more valuable. And so, how do we divide all of that so that everybody so you guys keep more of your money and the IRS gets less money? Yeah. Yeah. So creative solutions. And then we also do after divorce um help. So after you get a divorce, the lawyer's done, but you're not. There's still a lot of administrative work um and and considerations to make. You need to get new estate plan drawn up. You need to, are you gonna change your name? Do you need help with that? We help you make sure that all of the assets are divided as they're supposed to be. We help you make sure that your spouse is no longer involved in your credit report, right? That's a big one. Sometimes people forget to divide those and then somebody goes on a spending spree, and now you've got a FICO score that doesn't make it possible for you to rent an apartment. So we help you consider all of that. We have a lot of good referral sources. I actually don't do wealth management outside of this work. So if I think you would benefit from working with a wealth manager, I'll introduce you to a couple. You can interview them, I can answer questions for you because I used to do that and help you really pick somebody who's going to work with you in the way that you need to be worked with, somebody that has the patience to work with somebody who maybe hasn't handled the money before. Um, and actually, my firm, we're looking at doing prenuptial work now, where if you're when you're getting married, there's a lot you can do to keep yourself protected in the instance that we have to pull everything apart again. So um, but that that we're working, we're pretty busy right now, but it's a it's a game plan. I'm excited about it. Well, I think there's definitely a piece of that missing in the financial world, um, because people who are not kind of involved in the divorce work don't necessarily know how some of like merging accounts together can impact things. Um so you know, it's the commingling of marital and non-marital assets that often um becomes an issue. And I don't think, you know, at least in my experience, many financial professionals don't necessarily know that that's even a concern. Yeah, yeah. I actually, so because I'm I talk to a lot of financial advisors, and most of them are men. When I'm in a group full of men and they find out what I do, they love to just tell me how good they are at helping their clients with divorces and they don't need a CDFA. And I just listen to them talk about what they're doing, and I'm always like, ooh, oh, you know, it's like you don't know what damage you're doing by not having that specialized knowledge. Right. Yeah. What can someone expect when they're first starting to work with a CDFA? A lot of nosy questions. Uh, we we want to know all kinds of things. We we'd love to, it depends on where you are in the process, but we're going to want to know as much of the finances as you know. We want to know how much you know and how comfortable you are working with those numbers. We I ask for all of the financial statements you can get. And a lot of people put off looking at the money because they they don't know how to get access to that information. So sometimes it's just helping you figure out how to get that information. Your spouse is required to give you that information, and a lot of people don't understand. They're like, how do I get that? Right. Just file what you know, and then they have to let you know what they know. So that's that's a big part of it. Um, I want to know how long you've been together before. I want to know, I don't need to know why you're getting a divorce because in the US it's mostly it's nobody's fault in the eyes of the law. So that doesn't matter. But was it a long-term relationship before the marriage? And were you contributing to the assets? In some states, you can claim some of that. Um, in some states you can't. So you want to make sure you know those rules. Um, and we do a lot of checking in to see how you're doing. And I like to end all of my calls with my clients with what are you gonna do for yourself today? That's nice because you forget that you need to take care of yourself. Right. Absolutely, especially during this process because it's so challenging. Yeah. Yeah. The nice thing is though, that gives you that sets you up for success going forward because if you need your estate plan done, we've got all the information there. If you need uh if you need a new financial advisor, we've got all your information there. So so it's worth doing it. And then you get to know what you have and you start to feel like you can do this because once you understand, so there's a lot of educating for us when it's in we call it the non-CFO spouse, is the spouse who maybe didn't handle the money. It's not that you don't know how to do it, and it's not that you aren't smart enough, it's just that nobody taught you in a way that you understand. Right. Einstein says, if you don't understand if you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it. So if you're not understanding it, it's the person isn't explaining it right. So we do a lot of that work too. Because then you feel confident making the decisions you're going to have to make that affect you for the rest of your life. Absolutely. Yeah, it's a definitely a lot of educating and getting more comfortable with understanding the finances. How do you help clients who may be feeling a little overwhelmed by untangling all of the joint assets or marital assets? Yeah, it's a lot of reminding people that you can't eat an elephant all in one sitting. Sometimes you're just one bite at a time. So some clients they need something to do. So I just I'm constantly giving them a to-do list. Some clients need to do something and then step back for a little bit. And so it depends on on who you are and how overwhelmed you are, and how many kids you have and how old you are and how long the relationship was, because all of that comes into play. Um, but uh I also have all of my clients read Mel Robinson's Let Them Theory or listen to it because that really helps you get through a divorce because you learn to just be like, you know what, he can be the way he's gonna be. I'm gonna deal with things my own way because you can't control him. Yeah. Understand. And then you mentioned some of the services that you and your firm provide. Is one of those also after the divorce is final, if there are retirement assets that need to be divided, making sure that those accounts are separated? Yep. Yep. We facilitate um getting the quadro, which is the document that people need to separate those if they need them. Some retirement accounts don't need them, so we make sure you don't pay for it if you don't need it too. Perfect. Now I see we, you know, we have seen an uptick, and you mentioned working with a client who had been together for 30 years. Um, you know, so we've so we've seen an uptick in what we refer to as gray divorce, um, which are those couples who are over 50 or 55. Can you explain how retirement income planning changes for someone who is going through a a gray divorce compared to someone who might be younger and you know not in that that time frame? Yeah, that is such a good question. Um, because grey divorce is the highest growing sector of divorce. Um so when you're getting a divorce at 50 or 55 or later, I've I have some couples who are in their 70s. Same. Um, it's vital that you get it right because you can't go back to work at the same way you used to be able to and recover financially. And so you really need to, you need the help understanding how your taxes are going to change because you're not going to be married filing jointly anymore. Um, you need to understand how your property taxes might change. If you move from one house to another, you're gonna have a different property tax bill, and every state is different. Here in California, one person can transfer the low property tax, and the other person's gonna end up paying a new higher property tax. So you need to consider all of that in the retirement planning. Um, really, the least important part of that is how you're gonna get that income. It's more what is that income going to have to cover now that you're going forward as a single person? And then we do, you know, we do lifestyle analysis and we do look at what you're going to have and we help you come up with some ideas on what you might want to think about and what questions to ask your financial person. Got it. Yeah. One of the things that you mentioned earlier was, you know, empowering your clients. How do you approach financial empowerment as part of the healing process during your, you know, when you're working with clients? Yeah. That's one of my favorite questions because I love doing this. Um, because I really I channel what it felt like. I remember I was doing when I was in that usually people take about two years to come to the conclusion that they're going to need to get a divorce. And I remember in that time, I'd be at the park with my son and I would just be walking in circles. And all I would think about was, am I gonna be okay? How am I gonna do this? Do it, can I really go back to work? And I channel that when I'm working with somebody who is where I was back then. Yeah. Because if I talk to them the way I talk to a sophisticated wealth client I've been working with for 10 years, it's just gonna go over their head and they're gonna feel more overwhelmed. Right. But if I build them up instead, that feeling that you are in control, because understanding is control, right? It just sets you up for that that next phase in life, which is a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful phase. I am so glad. I mean, it hurts and it sucks, but I'm so glad I got a divorce. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it sounds like you're doing a great job of ensuring that your clients who are in that, you know, vulnerable spot are built up so that they are empowered to make those important decisions related to the finances that are going to move them forward. What's the first step that you recommend for women who are, you know, feel completely lost when it comes to their finances? Are there any things, educational tools or anything along those lines that you recommend for people to um to use about so that they can learn more about the finances? Yeah, there are some there's a growing trend to hire divorce coaches, and they can really help put things in perspective. Um you know, they say when if you get lost in the woods, just stand still, right? So, so stand still and find yourself an anchor point. I think that that really find somebody who knows what they're talking about and have them help you. Because even if it's a friend who has been through it, even if you don't have the money to hire all of these, because you know, if you hire a CDFA and a divorce coach, it every person you add to your team adds to the cost. But there are a lot of good free resources out there too. Um social media's got some pretty good people out there talking about things. Yeah. Um, Alex Beattie, I don't know if I can shout out people. Um, she has a very robust page of free resources. I'm sure a lot of other divorce coaches that I've seen out there do also. So uh, and that's the beauty of AI, is it's made it a lot easier for everybody to get this information out there. Yeah, because the women who've been through this all want to help you, right? Yeah, because they have been through it and they they know what it's like, so they want to help others who are going through it next. Yeah. Yeah, we all understand that when you get to that top rung, you reach down and pull somebody else up. Yeah. What's the most important thing women should keep in mind when they're planning for their financial future after divorce? You know, I haven't really thought of that question. I think it's that you need to be comfortable being responsible for every decision you make from now on. And so constant learning. Okay, and also embracing that you are capable of doing this. I think that's probably the first thing you need to do is do that work on yourself to understand. Because some women are in a situation where they're constantly being told they're not smart enough, and that's not the case. Any idiot can manage money, I promise you. There's lots of people who have no idea what they're doing who are doing okay. Right. You can do this. Yeah. And you just have to be willing to take on that challenge. Yeah. Yeah. Um, what's one piece of advice that you would give someone who is beginning their divorce journey? To learn, figure out what you need to get rid of the fear. And that's different for everybody, right? But that fear is what is holding you back. Yeah. Progress lies in doing the things you're afraid to do. So true. So true. Well, is there anything else that you would like to share with our listeners before we go today? Uh, just that I'm very proud of you for listening to this podcast and you're doing a great job with what you're doing, and you can do whatever you need to do to live your best life. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for joining us today, Catherine, and sharing your wisdom. We know that divorce can feel overwhelming, especially when it comes to money, but you've reminded us that the financial empowerment is not only possible, but an essential part of the healing and moving forward. How can our listeners find more about you and the services your firm provides? Um, my firm is cover your assets divorce. So yeah. You can find us, we're a little irreverent, um, but you need that sometimes. We're not afraid of dark humor. Uh, you can find us at www.coveryourassetsdivorce.com and you can also schedule a complimentary 30-minute strategy session on our from our website. Wonderful. We'll be sure to put that in the show notes. And listeners, if you are someone who needs legal support through divorce, custody, co-parenting, the team at Jacobson Family Law is here to help. Be sure to go to our website, which is JacobsonFamilyLaw.com, to schedule your consultation. And don't forget to subscribe to this podcast, share this episode with a friend, and leave a review if you found it helpful. Thanks again for joining us. I'm your host, Carrie Jacobson.

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Thanks for joining us today on this episode of Divorce Diaries. Remember, every journey is unique, but you don't have to navigate it alone. Visit JacobsonFamilyLaw.com or call 443 726 4912 for support and guidance.