Herlihy Family Law
Alison Herlihy is a dedicated family law attorney with roots in Mobile, Alabama.
Herlihy Family Law
EP #12: Navigating the Holidays After Divorce with the Team at Herlihy Family Law
The first holiday after a divorce can feel like stepping into a room where the furniture has been moved. You remember where joy used to sit, but you’re not sure where it belongs now. The team at Herlihy Family Law walks through that shift in this episode and offers grounded steps to plan ahead, lower conflict, and keep kids at the center without losing yourself in the process.
If your holiday plans look different this year, take a breath. With early planning, calm communication, and a kid-first mindset, different can still be joyful. Subscribe, share this episode with someone who needs it, and leave a review telling us one new tradition you’re excited to try.
Visit HerlihyFamilyLaw.com to learn more.
Sometimes a lot of people don't really understand how different it's gonna feel for them not having their you know, this maybe not being the year that the kids wake up on Christmas morning with them. And I I don't I just I don't think that people will anticipate those feelings that come with that. Um you know, I I think too that they also probably don't anti they you probably might assume that your newly ex-spouse is gonna cooperate with you, and that may not be something that's gonna happen.
Intro/Close:Welcome to the Hurli Family Law Podcast, your trusted source for expert insights on navigating family law matters with clarity and care. Whether you're tackling tough decisions or seeking guidance for your family's future, we are here to help. Let's get started.
Alison Herlihy:Hello, everybody. I am Alison Hurlihee, and we're here with a very special holiday episode of the Hurlihee Family Law podcast. Um, our uh associate attorneys, Anna Eden and Walter Guen, are here today, and we're gonna talk about navigating the holidays after divorce. That can be a really sticky issue for a lot of people. I mean, holidays can be stressful in the best of situations. So you can only imagine what that dynamic adds into the mix. Um well, Walter and Anna, what do you feel like are some of the biggest emotional or logistical challenge that clients face during their first holiday season after a divorce?
Walter Gewin:Well, I think I think starting something new when you've grown up with your own ideas of what holidays are and what and what you're supposed to do with your family is a whole new experience because all of a sudden you're missing your former spouse and possibly your children if they're children of the marriage. So it's definitely it's definitely different and it could it can be hard, but it doesn't have to be.
Anna Eden:Yeah. I I would definitely say one of the biggest emotional challenges that people will face is just like a new type of loneliness during the holidays. So it can be really important to make sure that you're still taking care of yourself and making sure that you're doing okay during this really happy, supposed to be happy time of the year for everybody. Um but if you know everything's different, you're gonna be dealing with some pretty big feelings of sadness or loneliness, probably.
Alison Herlihy:Yeah, and I think, you know, just having to adjust to the idea that there's gonna be new traditions, right? So, like if you've always done a particular thing on Christmas Eve every year, but maybe the other parent has Christmas Eve this year and not you, you know, you're gonna have to make some adjustments, right?
Intro/Close:Absolutely.
Alison Herlihy:Yeah. How can divorced parents prepare ahead of time to reduce holiday stress and avoid last minute conflicts?
Anna Eden:Well, I think, you know, one of the benefits that they're already gonna have is they're gonna have a set holiday schedule in place from their court order. So making sure that you've communicated with one another what your plans for the holidays are gonna be, you know, understanding like, hey, these are our drop-off times or our exchange times, this is where we want to do it at, you know, if your kids are really young and maybe communicate with one another, how you're gonna explain how Santa was at mom's house first and how she was able to be at dad, or he was able to be at dad's house later, you know, just making sure that your lines of communication are open and they're focused on making sure that this is still a really enjoyable, enjoyable time for your children.
Walter Gewin:I agree. I think you know, communicating is is so important. And most people's uh judgments of divorce will address the holidays. However, things come up and people are always trying to exchange or oh, oh, I want to take the child to this event. And so I think I think communicating and arranging to swap time in advance will help somebody not forego time and not get their replacement time with with the child.
Alison Herlihy:Yeah, and just to be really clear at all times about what those expectations are, I think is so important. Um, what's one thing you think that newly divorced individuals often do not anticipate about the holidays, but probably should.
Anna Eden:I I would think that sometimes a lot of people don't really understand how different it's gonna feel for them, not having their, you know, this maybe not being the year that the kids wake up on Christmas morning with them. And I I don't I just I don't think that people will anticipate those feelings that come with that. Um you know, I I think too that they also probably don't anti they you probably might assume that your newly ex-spouse is gonna cooperate with you, and that may not be something that's gonna happen. You'd think that people are gonna let like their holiday feelings dictate and everyone's gonna be happy and more amenable to change or more open to trying to move parenting time around because of the holidays. Um, and you know, you probably should anticipate that your your former spouse is gonna want to follow what the court order is, especially if you already had a track record during your divorce of not being able to cooperate with one another. Um I think people think about that.
Walter Gewin:I think a lot of people enter the holidays expecting to do the same thing as always. And so I think they might think they're ready, and then Christmas Day gets here, or Thanksgiving, and and all of a sudden their traditions they've always had are are changed. I mean, they're still there, but they they can't happen as they did when everyone was together. So I think just trying to arrange for that and make it smooth and easy for either for themselves or for the children, I mean, is really important.
Anna Eden:I also don't think people anticipate how their extended family is gonna react to their new norm of the holidays. So I think that people kind of need to take into consideration to what things are gonna look like for them plus their extended family, especially if they're used to spending a lot of time with their extended family during the holidays, because they're definitely gonna have opinions too.
Walter Gewin:That's true, yeah.
Alison Herlihy:I mean, think about like if you as a parent also have your own parents that are divorced too. Um, like a lot of us are in that situation. I mean, and then you've like octopled the number of you know houses where people want to see your children, so it's a lot, yeah.
Walter Gewin:It's a lot, I know. All right, so I've got some questions for y'all. Um all right, how do you both guide clients to create new traditions without feeling like they're replacing old family memories?
Alison Herlihy:You know, I I mean, I would say to focus on the joy of the holidays and try to let go of, like you kind of touched on earlier, being so focused on things being exactly the same. Because, you know, once you're divorced, things are never going to be the same again. I mean, even if you are one of those really fortunate people who you get along well with your ex-spouse, like, you know, we hear stories about sometimes people can actually like get together on Christmas morning and watch the kids open presents together. I don't feel like that's the majority of people, but you know, maybe you'll get to do that, maybe you won't. And if you don't, it's okay to open your presents in the afternoon or whatever, you know. I mean, what your kids care about is being with you, you know, they don't care whether it's 9 a.m. or 3 p.m. or or whatever. Right.
Anna Eden:Yeah. I think another thing that's important too is kind of emphasizing to clients that you don't have to replace the old memories, right? Like your kids are still gonna have those memories that they love and that they cherish. And so instead of, you know, having the focus be on, well, this is how it used to be and it's gonna be different, put a positive spin on it. Like, you know, we get to try something fun and new. Like, I know we had a great time last year, but this year we're gonna do something different and we're still gonna have a great time, you know, just making sure that you're maintaining the positive energy of the holidays.
Walter Gewin:Absolutely. Different is okay. Um, all right. When when children are involved, what is the best way to balance time fairly between parents while keeping the holidays special for the kids?
Anna Eden:Well, I I mean I kind of touched on this a little bit earlier. You know, most of the time when you're divorced, you're already going to have a holiday schedule in place within your custody and visitation schedule. And that schedule is created in mind of you know, making sure that things are fair for parents during the holidays, whether that's you get to split the actual holiday with the child. So someone has them in the morning for Christmas one year and the afternoon that same day, or they're alternating the you know, the actual days that they swap. Um, but you know, making sure that you follow that schedule and you know, you're being willing to, if you have to move something for another parent to be able to celebrate something, you know, be cognizant. If you're the parent asking for extra time, that you're willing to give up time for the other for the parent that you know is losing time. Um, just making sure that if if you're asking for more, you're willing to give more back to.
Alison Herlihy:Yeah, I think that's a great point, Anna, because you know, it if you have, like, let's say you have a really special extended family tradition on your side that y'all always do on Christmas Eve, for instance, but the other parent is scheduled to have the children on Christmas Eve this year. There's nothing wrong with talking to the other parent and say, hey, you know, is it okay if I get the children from you know four to eight so we can have our dinner with my parents like we always do? But like you said, Anna, I mean, keep in mind, like if you want to ask for that, that is time that you are taking away from the other parent. So, you know, if you want to get something, you need to be prepared to give something usually. That's a great point.
Walter Gewin:Totally agree. So, so I guess kind of along those lines, in in cases with blended families, what communication strategies do y'all think um is are helpful when dealing with parents, stepparents, and kids so that everyone feels included and respected?
Alison Herlihy:I yeah, I think it's really important to keep the focus on the kids um and what is going to make it as happy and free of conflict as is realistically possible. I mean, we're all human, nobody's perfect, but you know, try to make it about your kids and not about you. Um, and that being said, I mean, of course, you may not get along with your former spouse's new spouse, you know, if there's a stepmom or a stepdad in the picture, but it's important to always be respectful in your communication with others because, you know, custody and visitation are always modifiable. So that means you can always end up going back to court. And if there's a bunch of text messages that you've sent to the stepmom or the stepdad that are laced with profanity and threats and things like that, you know, you're really going to be shooting yourself in the foot if you end up back in front of a judge. So you've got that to consider too.
Anna Eden:Right. Yeah. I think um people don't really consider this, but kids, even elementary school age, can feel the tension between their parents and new step parents or you in between with parents and new step parents. So, you know, if you go to your kids' Thanksgiving parade or play or some kind of Christmas party at their school or whatever, and you can't even be in the same room as your former spouse and their new partner, your kid's gonna pick up on that energy. So, you know, you have to put your personal feelings aside in those special holiday moments for your kids, um, and make sure that you at least treat those other people with respect. You know, I I have a I don't necessarily think that it's, you know, your job to make your former spouse's new spouse feel included. I think that your former spouse can do that on their own if they want them to be involved in parenting and helping co-parent your kids, but you can still at least be respectful of that other person and appreciate that they want to be there and they want to help celebrate your children or your child and make them feel supported.
Alison Herlihy:Yeah, and ultimately that's a good thing for kids, right? I mean, the more people that love them and care about them, the better.
Anna Eden:Yeah.
Alison Herlihy:And um to your point, Anna, you know, above all else, children need to feel safety and security. And they're not going to feel safe and secure if they're about around a bunch of adults that they can tell all hate each other. Yeah.
Anna Eden:Um I mean, so Alison and Walter, what kind of advice do you guys try to give to our clients that are newly separated and they're spending their first holiday season alone?
Alison Herlihy:You know, I think that's a great question because that's something that I feel like I have probably underestimated how much it affects people. But I know that we've had a few clients over the years who were really affected mentally and emotionally by that. Like, especially, you know, the first Christmas without my children. So I think I know we've said this a lot, but I mean, I think plan ahead is a key thing. You know, know that just because this year doesn't look like last year, that's okay. You're gonna see your children when they get whatever day they're scheduled to get home, and you could do something special with them either ahead of time or when they get home. And, you know, I mean, plan something fun for yourself. You know, maybe you want to take a trip with your friends for Christmas this year, or um, you know, really focus on spending that time with your own parents, you know, or other family members on your side. I mean, there's still there's still value and there's still happiness to be had just because, you know, your children are with the other parent for a few days.
Walter Gewin:Right. I agree. I think I think for first and foremost, it it will be different. It's it's it's gonna be new, but I think I think it's still it's the holidays, it's about the season. And so I think no matter if you don't get Christmas morning, and instead you get the children at six, I mean, I think there's a lot of fun that you can have Christmas night, and then all that means is you'll probably have Christmas morning the next year, and so I think it's gonna be different, and I think everybody puts a lot of pressure on the holidays to be perfect and and to be to make them feel comfortable and happy, and and and it's okay if it's not all like that, but but I think that it's important that you try and you try to start something new because something new can be great.
Anna Eden:Yeah, and like to your point a little bit, Walter, even if it's you know, newly separated people who don't have children, and it's somebody who's just truly spending their first holiday without a partner being there, there really can be a lot of pressure around the holidays to do to do and go and be around people. And you know, if you're someone that doesn't have children and you're newly separated, maybe you take this time to, and especially going into a new year, really reflect on what you want your life to look like going forward and use the opportunity to kind of just take a break. You don't have to celebrate if you don't want to, if you don't feel like you're in the right headspace or you are feeling kind of lonely. It's okay to feel that way and to take some time to yourself. Um, but so how would you guys um how how do y'all think that co-parents um can prioritize their children's emotional needs while managing their own feelings of loss or loneliness?
Walter Gewin:Well, I think go ahead. I think I think that the holidays and and I think parenting is is all about the children. So I mean I think I think they should be first and foremost. And then I I mean I I'm not discounting what you feel as an adult or as a parent, but I think I think kind of pushing forward for the kids is really important because I I mean the holidays is all about being together and being family. Um, so I think I think it's important to meet your kids where they are and help make them comfortable and make sure they're having a great holiday season, but um I'm not discounting your own feelings. So I think I think things like therapy or finding ways to enjoy your time, like you spoke about Anna, is really important because there's a lot you can do for yourself.
Alison Herlihy:Yeah, I you know, I think it's I think it's important to remember like the the emotionality of all this can get really overwhelming and the holidays are an especially sensitive time for a lot of people, um, especially if you're really freshly coming off your divorce. But, you know, you've got to remember that your children are not your friends and they're not your therapist. So, I mean, you know, you don't want to be dumping your emotional turmoil on their children. That's not right.
Walter Gewin:Right.
Alison Herlihy:Um, you know, so it's so I mentioned friends and therapists, so maybe you need to identify some trusted friends or family members or therapy, like you said, Walter, people that it's appropriate for you to process those kind of feelings with, or maybe there's other, you know, constructive things you want to do, like journaling is really helpful for a lot of people. Um, Anna mentioned kind of like reflecting, you know. I love to at the end of the year sort of reflect on the year behind me and plan for the year ahead. And um I think channeling those things into something positive is really important and not taking it out on your kids. I agree.
Anna Eden:Um, what would you guys say are some healthy ways that clients can set boundaries with you know extended family members or even friends uh who may not understand or respect really these like these new post-separation or post-divorce arrangements that people have.
Walter Gewin:I think I think it's important for extended family to understand that it is logistically impossible for everything to stay the same. So, I mean, like Alison was saying, if if you had a tradition where you did Christmas Eve together and got together and and then opened presents in the morning and had dinner that night, well, more than likely you're not gonna be able to do all that. I mean, somebody's probably gonna have Christmas Eve and Christmas morning, and somebody else or the other parent will have Christmas night and then through the new year. And so I I mean you may lose some extended family members that were present at other events because they can't be there, and that's okay because you can't do it like you always did. So I think I think being clear, communicating in advance will help you realize how you can either accommodate and have everyone there for what you can do or make a new tradition, and then maybe everyone won't be there from your extended family, and that that's okay as well.
Alison Herlihy:Yeah, I mean, I think you know, accepting what is is so important because like the misery and the unhappiness comes in when we're trying to fight against things that we can't change. So, like if your divorce decree says that you're exchanging the kids on December 25th at 6 p.m. or whatever it says, that's what's happening. And so you can tell your family members, look, you know, the kids aren't gonna be there on Christmas Eve like they normally are, but I'll be there and I'm really looking forward to seeing our family. And here's the days that the kids will be with me and off school. Maybe we can plan something one of those days, you know, and everybody's just gonna kind of go with the flow on this, you know, and not not be afraid to create new traditions. The circumstances change.
Anna Eden:Yeah. And, you know, it all comes back to just communicating, right? Like you have to speak up on your own behalf to your family and your friends and say, hey, look, this is how things are gonna have to be for us from now on. I I would really love your support and your understanding while I'm dealing with all this. Um, I know you're probably disappointed that things can't be like they used to be, but you know, it'll be a lot easier for all of us if we're all on the same page and on board about everything. Because I can imagine how overwhelming it would be if, you know, you're freshly divorced and you don't have your kids with you for the first time, or even if you don't have kids and you're this partner that your extended family loved is not going to be there anymore. If you're bombarded with questions, you know, of what are they doing? Why aren't they here? What's going on? You know, sometimes it's not their business. So as long as you can tell people ahead of time, like, hey, you know what I'm going through. If you can kind of help me, it'll make it'll be better for everybody.
Alison Herlihy:Right. Yeah. And you know, you don't have to be confrontational with people. I mean, if they're asking you personal questions about your divorce, you know, you can just say, hey, you know, we're here to celebrate. Nobody wants to hear this right now, and just, you know, change the subject in kind of a casual way. You know.
Anna Eden:Um, so what uh what legal or practical steps should clients take before the holidays to prevent scheduling disputes or misunderstandings?
Alison Herlihy:The key thing I would say is if you need help from your lawyer, you need to ask ahead of time.
Walter Gewin:Agreed.
Alison Herlihy:We get that holiday letter out fast. Yeah, we we send our clients a letter like in the beginning of November every year that just kind of says, like, hey, the holidays are coming. Make sure you plan ahead. If you need our help, you need to contact us, ASAP. Because, you know, if you're calling me the day before Thanksgiving or on December 23rd with a problem about Thanksgiving or Christmas, there's not going to be much I can do for you. I mean, if we have to file a motion with the court, the the judges aren't there on Thanksgiving Day, you know, um, you're not getting a hearing in between the day before Thanksgiving and Thanksgiving Day. Um, a lot of lawyers are on vacation with their families. So even if you tried to call the other lawyer and resolve it informally, you may not be able to reach people. Um, because, you know, believe it or not, we're people too. You know, we we all have personal lives and plans and you know, our family obligations and traveling and all that kind of stuff. So you you definitely need to plan ahead of time. That's key. And then the other thing I would say is, you know, you if you're divorced already, you're gonna have a court order that says what the schedule is. But like we've kind of touched on, if you're gonna deviate from the court order to accommodate some specific event or tradition, you need to be 110% clear with the other parent. Okay, it's from this time to this time on this day. You know, in exchange for that, you can get them from this time to this time on this day. We're gonna meet at this place to pick them up or drop them off. You just have to be extremely explicit and don't make any assumptions about what the understanding is and document everything in writing.
Anna Eden:I was about to say, put it in writing. Don't have a phone call about it. Send an email, even if you do have a phone call, send a follow-up email or a follow-up text that explicitly says what the deviated arrangement is. So that way, if there is some pushback down the road, it's like, well, we had this conversation. Here's where we agreed to it, here's where we talked about it again. So, you know, I'm expecting you to honor this that we this arrangement we've made.
Walter Gewin:Right. I mean, I think I think communicating and even, you know, maybe having like a calendar with everything scheduled would be helpful to go ahead and send that out and kind of prioritize what you want the kids or kids for versus what they want and just as much as you can do in advance to try to prevent any problems, I think would be helpful.
Alison Herlihy:Yeah. Well, um, Anna and Walter, how can divorce parents handle situations where the other parent isn't following the schedule?
Anna Eden:Well, if it's a case, sorry, Walter, no, you're good. If it's a case where your divorce is not finalized and you're in the middle of litigation, um, the first thing if it's not in a horrible period of time like the day before Thanksgiving, where it's going to be hard to get some relief, you know, if the first call would be to your lawyer's office to notify them and let them know what's happening so that they can do the job that you've hired them to do, and that's try to fix this problem for you while you still have enough time to fix it. Um now, if it's something where it is the day before Thanksgiving and the other parent is not gonna honor what the schedule says, if it were me, you know, I would say minimize the conflict. If you have to give a little bit in this moment to make sure that there's not going to be some sort of big blowout where police have to get involved or something crazy happens and you have to make that sacrifice for the sake of your kids, be the one that does that because that's what they'll remember down the road instead of you know having a bad memory or something. Um, and then afterwards, when the holidays are over or when people are back in the office, still reach out to your lawyer and so we can try to handle it going forward for you and address what did occur. Right. Um but I I'm always gonna advocate for clients to take the least combative route possible.
Alison Herlihy:Yeah. Well, and I think it's important for people to understand too that the legal system, you know, acts retroactively to try to remedy wrongs that have already happened in the past. So if you were gonna have to file like a contempt action against the other person if they're violating a court order, you really can't file a contempt because you think they're going to not let you get them on Christmas Day in the future. Unfortunately, you got to wait until that actually happens, and then after the fact, you could file something with the court. Yeah.
Walter Gewin:Yeah, I think I think communicating and writing will help preserve any issues. And then I think, I think, kind of like you were alluding to, Anna, I think at the same time you have to be mindful. Like this is your kid's Christmas or Thanksgiving. And so I think while maybe it's not ideal and it's very hurtful, I think you also have to be aware of what you are portraying and what the kids are seeing and and and keep it all kind of be mindful of that when you're dealing with the other parent. Um, because you can't do anything about it unless it's happened. And and then you can. So I mean, I think it's important to kind of salvage what you do have and keep everything positive and um and happy for the kids.
Alison Herlihy:Yeah. Uh for those that are in new relationships, how should they navigate introducing a partner or step family during holiday gatherings?
Anna Eden:Um, I think that first and foremost, you should consult your agreement if you have one or your judgment of divorce and see what it may say about new partners, new romantic partners. Um and if it's appropriate and it's time, you know, I would say talk or let at least let your former spouse know that you know you are in a new relationship with somebody and you're ready for them to meet your children. You don't have to ask their permission, but I think it's at least nice to give them the heads up of hey, they're going to be meeting this important person in my life.
Alison Herlihy:Um transparent, right? I mean, that that breeds trust, whereas sneakiness and secrecy does not breed trust.
Anna Eden:Yes. So uh, you know, bringing transparency to the situation and then, you know, gently introducing your children to them. Um, I think I think that's gonna be like the biggest thing into making it less of a problem down the road.
Walter Gewin:Yeah, I agree. I think I think yet again, communicating and and including the other parents. I mean, I think that's a big step for most people with their kids. And I think I think that you should be transparent, like Allison said, and make them feel like included and that you're trying to do what's best for the kids. Because I mean, that's what it's all about.
Anna Eden:Also, this may be an unpopular opinion. I would not introduce my new partner to my children or my family for the first time during the holidays.
Alison Herlihy:Yeah, I agree.
Anna Eden:That can be a lot of pressure on the new partner, but also pressure on your kids. Um, you know, there there are other more appropriate times that this could happen. Um, but if your children or your family, they've already all met this person and you feel like it's the right time, at least make sure that your former spouse knows that you the child that you share with them is going to be meeting this new person. Because the last thing you want is for them to go back to your former spouse's house and then talk about I'm at mom or dad's new boyfriend or girlfriend, and they have no idea who you're talking about or what's going on.
Walter Gewin:Yeah.
Alison Herlihy:Yeah, I agree with you, Anna. I mean, I think the holidays are such a high pressure time anyway. You know, like Walter mentioned, there's a lot of pressure to like make create perfection. And so when you think about that kind of like pressure cooker situation, then you're gonna throw a new partner into that mix. I mean, that can just be a lot. Like I think it would be much better to time to schedule that during a time where there's less less pressure.
Intro/Close:Okay.
Alison Herlihy:Um and and and too, just like bearing in mind, like we talked about earlier, like children need stability and they need consistency. So, you know, if you've been dating somebody for two weeks, you don't need to bring them to Christmas. Right. You know, like you I think you know, psychological literature would agree that it's best to hold off until you're in a relatively serious relationship because you know, you don't want to expose your children to a parade of different people in and out of their lives.
Anna Eden:Right. Exactly.
Alison Herlihy:Well, to kind of wrap up, I mean, what's one piece of advice y'all would give to clients heading into the holiday season after a divorce?
Walter Gewin:I think I think remembering the reason for the season is important. And it's uh it's all about being together and and just enjoying each other in in the holidays. And so I think I think not adding on the pressure and and realizing it's not going to be the same is okay. And I think keeping it happy and all about you and your family or you and your kids is is really important because it's easy to get lost among everything going on, everybody's busy schedules. And so I th I I think I think communicating and remembering what it's all about is important.
Anna Eden:Yeah. I mean, generally I tell people this, whether it's the holidays or not, but it's all gonna be okay. Like that is the thing that I tell people to remember all the time. You know, this new normal that you're facing, it is it's gonna be a challenge to get used to, but challenges can be exciting and rewarding if you look at them that way. And so if you go into the holiday season post-divorce with a positive mindset, looking forward to a new future, looking forward to a new year ahead of you, you're gonna find that the time will be much more enjoyable for yourself, for your children, and for your family.
Alison Herlihy:Yeah. I mean, you know, your life might look a lot different than what you envisioned, you know, a few months ago or a few years ago, but that's okay. And, you know, I mean, you can even try to look at it as an opportunity, you know, just you can create a life that's more like what you envisioned for yourself than the the what your life looked like when you were in an unhappy marriage. Yeah, you know, and that can be a really good thing. So, um, well, if any listeners want to reach us, if they need help planning or modifying holiday custody and visitation arrangements, our uh website is www.hurlyhefamilylaw.com or our phone number is two five one four three two seven nine zero nine. And um, thank you all for listening and thanks from all three of us, and we wish you a happy and healthy holiday season.
Intro/Close:Yeah. Thank you for tuning in to the Hurley Family Law Podcast. Remember, you don't have to face family law challenges alone. Visit Hurleyhe Family Law.com or call two five one four three two seven nine zero nine to learn more.