EP #16: How Individual Therapy Can Support You Through Divorce & Major Life Transitions with Social Worker Sherry Bishop

Divorce can make smart, capable people feel unsteady, ashamed, and unsure of what’s real, especially when someone close to them says they are “overreacting” or “crazy.” We want to slow that spiral down. Alison sits down with licensed independent clinical social worker Sherry Bishop to talk about emotional well-being during divorce and why the right support can change the entire experience of family law litigation.

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Transcript

Feeling Crazy And Getting Validated

Sherry Bishop 0:00

So many times people come to therapy and they say, I'm I'm afraid, I'm I'm I'm crazy. Uh people tell me I am, you know, my uh soon-to-be ex-husband tells me this. Or or ex-wife. It can go either way. Um, so it's a way to also work through and validate that your feelings are real and and so are the emotions attached to them.

Emotional Health During Divorce

Intro/Close 0:28

Welcome to the Herlihy Family Law Podcast, your trusted source for expert insights on navigating family law matters with clarity and care. Whether you are tackling tough decisions or seeking guidance for your family's future, we are here to help. Let's get started.

Alison Herlihy 0:47

Welcome back to the Herlihy Family Law Podcast. I'm your host, Alison Herlihy, and today we're talking about something that often gets overlooked in the middle of divorce or other litigation, your emotional well-being. Divorce isn't just a legal process, it's a major life transition that can bring stress, anxiety, grief, and uncertainty. That's why I'm joined today by social worker Sherry Bishop to talk about how individual therapy can help you navigate not just divorce, but any significant life change. We'll discuss what therapy really looks like, how it can support you during difficult transitions, and why having the right emotional support can make all the difference. Sherry Bishop and I know each other pretty well because she's also my mom. Um thanks for being here, mom. I'm very happy to be.

Sherry Bishop 1:39

Thank you for asking me.

Therapy Credentials And What It Is

Alison Herlihy 1:42

Can you tell us a little bit about what your credentials are as a mental health professional?

Sherry Bishop 1:48

Oh yes, I am a licensed independent clinical social worker. That means I have a master's, and then a period of time after that of individual supervision, uh, and then uh a licensure exam. Um there are many different types of people that do therapy. Um and clinical social workers are one of one set of those.

Alison Herlihy 2:20

And how long have you been in the mental health field?

Sherry Bishop 2:25

Um a very long time. Um I started not as a clinical social worker, I have two master's degrees, but with my first master's, I began working in mental health in about 1970.

Alison Herlihy 2:41

And you've worked in hospital settings, private mental health settings, the the VA, and now you work as a private independent therapist, right? That is correct. Yeah. So what is individual therapy and how does it differ from just getting support from your friends or family?

Sherry Bishop 3:04

Well, individual therapy, um, you know, friends and family want to be helpful, but their capacity to do that with objectivity is limited by the nature of the relationships. When you're dealing with serious life change issues, you need, um, in my opinion, someone who can operate and function with clarity and objectivity as they begin to engage with you to look at change. Um you know, therapy is a process, it's very important to know that. And you don't want to wear out friends and family by needing them, you know, over an extended period of time.

Alison Herlihy 3:59

Um or your lawyer, right? Yes. I mean, I think, you know, um, I think those lines can get blurred sometimes, you know, because divorce is such an emotional process. And yes, you know, we try to tell our clients, you know, if therapy is what you need, we're not trained to give it to you, you know, and you need a professional.

Sherry Bishop 4:20

Correct.

Why Divorce Clients Need Therapy

Alison Herlihy 4:24

Well, why might someone going through a divorce benefit from having a therapist on their support team?

Sherry Bishop 4:31

Um it provides a safe place to, first of all, generally what happens is there is uh um a release of the tensions and the frustrations, the fears, as we begin to identify what would be um the projected goals for therapy, what brings you into therapy, and and that is a sort of emptying, that's how I conceive of it. Um, but it doesn't stop there. Um it is a safe place to examine your thoughts, your feelings, your emotions. Um, and that's a very important thing. Um, not every place is safe. Um hopefully it can reduce some of the stress that one begins to feel of being isolated as they go through this process, and it's also an important way to validate your feelings, you know. So many times people come to therapy and they say, I'm I'm afraid, I'm I'm I'm crazy. Uh, people tell me I am, you know, my uh soon-to-be ex-husband tells me this, or or ex-wife, it can go either way. Um, so it's a way to also work through and validate that your feelings are real, and and so are the emotions attached to them. But again, how do we reach beyond that identification and go to the next steps in therapy, uh, which is change?

Why Change Feels Destabilizing

Alison Herlihy 6:18

Yeah. Well, what are the common emotional reactions people experience during big life changes like divorce or separation or other types of you know, family law litigation they might be going through?

Sherry Bishop 6:33

Yeah, yeah. Well, transitions or change creates, even if it's sought, and this is to me a very important thing, even if it's wanted, even if it's sought, the transition by its nature creates a sense of instability or destabilization. And that can happen in your emotions as well as the physical aspects of your life. Um, you know, if when you go from unknown into this space of unknown, which would be the transition, say from being married into working through how to separate off that, um, it's it's unfamiliar ground. You go from the familiar into foreign territory, and to have someone help you navigate those indefinite realities can be very reassuring, very helpful. Um, and everyone goes through that when you make a change. Um, you'll get to the other side, you'll get back to firm ground and and go forward in life. That's the goal. Yeah, but but you have to go through this kind of churning field of emotion and and life change to get to this new firm ground.

Alison Herlihy 8:07

Yeah.

Sherry Bishop 8:08

Um, you know, you we all have life scripts, if you can think of it that way. If a change is script consistent, then it usually doesn't create such sense of instability. You know, like I graduate from high school, my next step is college or or vocational school, whatever it is. You know, you're it's predictable. But if a script is divergent, say an unanticipated illness or divorce, uh, that can really be uh a challenge to figure out. Uh we resist change by nature, human beings do, I think. They seek the familiar.

Alison Herlihy 8:57

Um I mean, that's how we're wired, right? Like for survival.

Sherry Bishop 9:02

Yes, yes, to deal with the known, right? Um, you know, and all kinds of systems get activated when you are thrown into an unknown. Um, and it's important to know that that's simply part of the process, it's not in and of itself, it's a change. And one of the go ahead.

Alison Herlihy 9:31

One thing I remember reading years ago that I've cited to a lot of my clients over the years is that supposedly divorce is second only to the death of a loved one in terms of traumatic life events that you can experience. Do you feel like that's true?

Sherry Bishop 9:48

It's very high up there. Yes. Um, yeah, there's a scale called the Holmes Ray Scale, and it talks about you know, stressors that enter our lives and it ranks them. And uh, yeah, divorce would be as a up there.

Alison Herlihy 10:03

Yeah. And I think that's to your point that you made earlier. Like even if you you are seeking this and you know that it's the right thing, you know, you still experience it maybe as a loss or a traumatic event, even if you know it's the right thing to do, which I imagine would be pretty, you know, emotionally confusing. Correct.

Sherry Bishop 10:25

You know, a lot, I think, too, maybe depend on the point at which divorce, the decision for divorce enters your life. Um, you know, um, most divorces happen roughly within the first decade of life, I mean, of marriage, married life. Um, but now too, there is the issue of gray divorce that's developing where people are choosing to divorce at much later ages.

Alison Herlihy 10:57

Um that's much more common nowadays than it ever was before.

Sherry Bishop 11:02

Yes, it has developed.

Alison Herlihy 11:03

That is true.

Signs It’s Time For Therapy

Alison Herlihy 11:05

Well, at what point should someone consider therapy? Like, what is there something that you would describe or some things that you would describe as like a key sign that like it's time that you need professional help?

Sherry Bishop 11:21

Um, if the circumstances that you're living with um begin to create interference in the routine functions of your life, um if you're enduring persistent emotional distress and can't get away from it, if you if you live in that day today. Um if you're having behavioral changes, you know, say some small event may trigger uh you know what most would consider a more elevated or extreme response. You know, those are those are indicators that something you may need help managing this period of your life. Um if you are employing ineffective coping strategies, which many people do, you know, they may be drinking more, um relying on um other substances, um eating excessively, you know, all of all of those kinds of things that work against health.

Alison Herlihy 12:33

Yeah.

Sherry Bishop 12:34

Um, if those are creating intrusions in your life, um, then it is a sign or signs, you know, something needs to be looked at, something needs to change about this.

Alison Herlihy 12:46

Yeah.

Safe Harbor And Strengths Perspective

Alison Herlihy 12:48

How does therapy typically work in the early stages for someone going through a divorce or a big life change?

Sherry Bishop 12:57

Um hopefully it will be your safe harbor, and that's how it will work. You utilize it, you pick it up as a tool and use it. When you feel that you no longer need it, you can put it down. Um, therapy does not have to be a lifelong commitment. Uh, in fact, I think therapy would fail if that if it was that, frankly. Uh, the job, one of the big roles of therapy is to equip people with the knowledge and the skill sets to um to bring about their own change. Um, you know, the therapist is a change agent, but they they are not, they do not have the power to create change in another.

Alison Herlihy 13:54

Right.

Sherry Bishop 13:54

Um many times I when people first come to therapy, if they're unfamiliar with it, they may say, Well, I thought I was gonna come here and you would tell me what to do, or or you would fix me. Um, but then that is an um a limited understanding. Um therapy's role is to equip you to get in touch with your innate strengths, and everyone carries them, no matter how vulnerable or um exposed they may feel.

Alison Herlihy 14:28

Wow, yeah, that's so important to remember.

Sherry Bishop 14:31

It is.

Alison Herlihy 14:32

Yeah.

Sherry Bishop 14:32

Uh, you know, so many times when a person comes in, we identify what are the negatives we we are looking at, but it's a bigger picture than that. Um, to reach for a person's strength, no matter how um inconsequential or small they may feel. It is very important to help people attach to those, to use that energy to produce change.

Alison Herlihy 15:04

That sounds a lot like, you know, I'm going through yoga therapy training, and one of the things they talk about is that their approach is like the most of the approaches of traditional medicine, they call it pathogenic. So like identify what what the illness is and figure out what you can do to that thing. But they say that yoga therapy is uh salutogenic. So like you approach it from like what what's there already, and how can we make this person as well as possible versus like identifying what's wrong with them and trying to delete the thing that's wrong, and I thought that was such an interesting way to conceive of health, and I'd really never heard that in any other context before.

Sherry Bishop 15:45

Yeah, well, it fits right into the concept of resilience, um, you know, so many times um people come in and they feel extremely compromised regarding their abilities to deal with things. Um, but in the development of a therapeutic alliance that also supports their getting in touch with their strengths. Uh, there's a whole concept of how one would look at therapy with another, with a human being, and it is called the strengths perspective. It's hopeful. Yeah. And it is not driven by a pathological understanding, you know, of what's wrong.

Alison Herlihy 16:38

And that's how we try to frame things for our clients that we represent at divorces, you know, like we're gonna help like shepherd you through this difficult process, but this is just like a phase that you have to move through, and then you get a fresh start after this. You know, there's a rest of your life on the other side versus thinking that like, you know, a lot of people come to us in a place of a lot of fear and insecurity and those senses of loss and feeling like their life is over, but you know, you've got a lot of life left to live. This is just one part of it. And the good thing about getting divorced is you get, you know, you have the power to sort of shape what your life looks like in the future in a lot of ways that maybe you didn't have before. And I think therapy can probably help you do that. What do you think?

Sherry Bishop 17:24

Oh, absolutely. Uh, it can create uh, you know, a whole renewal of outlook that you define, it's not being defined through another human being or their expectations or needs. Um, it's actually a very freeing reality. Uh, but so many times, again, people want to cling to the known or feel the need to to keep their life quote in quote safe. Um, so there is, you know, resistance is a natural part of the process of therapy. Um even though, as you said earlier, a person may understand that change is needed or change is coming, it is natural for a person to resist change.

Alison Herlihy 18:17

Yeah.

Sherry Bishop 18:18

Um, so part of the job of therapy is to help with a working through of that and and assist people in connecting to you know, whatever their future will become.

Skills To Regulate Stress

Alison Herlihy 18:32

So, what types of strategies or skills can you help somebody develop in therapy?

Sherry Bishop 18:41

Um, well, there are many. What are some examples? Just uh an array would be, you know, one thing would be to help with the regulation of one's emotional life. Um so many times when people are under extreme stress, they tend to react more um knee-jerk quickly without thinking something through. Um, it is very, very important to um try to find a way to create a pause that's going to allow you to stay in what we call your your executive function up here, the front part of your brain. Um back here, the old part of the brain, the old brain, some people call it the lizard brain or the reptile brain. Um that's what it regulates breathing. Um, it also is has survival mechanisms in it. That's where fight or flight is. Um, that whole uh thing that helps you survive. If you know, if a dinosaur is chasing you, you want to get the hell out of there if you can. Um but in to deal with weighty life realities, it is very important to try to stay cognitively focused. It's not that you don't feel, but you want to be able to process things in a thoughtful, reasonable way. Um you know, mindfulness is another tool that's helpful. Um, things like relaxation breathing to educate people how to employ that. Um progressive muscle relaxation is another tool people can use. Um, it's kind of a reset button for you on tension. Again, to take a pause, count to 10. Sometimes when people get really upset, they may have um circular thinking. You know, you get on that wheel and you can't get off.

Alison Herlihy 20:58

The faster you can say on something, yes, yeah, obsessing.

Sherry Bishop 21:03

Um, you know, you can employ a mechanism called thought stopping, which you know, actually you you don't have to say it out loud, you can say it in your mind. But if you're alone, say it out loud. You know, you you can command yourself, stop, like a literal command. Anything that's going to get your attention and shift it off of the rumination where you go around and around and around. Um, you know, that's like have being in a car up on jacks. You're you you may get in it and gun it, but you're not going anywhere. Right. And the point, the point is to learn how to incorporate and utilize change in a healthy way.

Alison Herlihy 21:53

Yeah. Um, because it can be a powerful thing in in a good way. Absolutely. Yeah.

Therapy Myths And Hesitations

Alison Herlihy 22:00

What are some common misconceptions people have about therapy? You kind of touched on one earlier where you said sometimes people think I thought I was going to come in here and you were going to fix me.

unknown 22:10

Yeah.

Alison Herlihy 22:11

You know, I think another one is people think you have to be quote unquote crazy to go to therapy.

Sherry Bishop 22:16

Yeah, that that you are, you know, it's only for a more severe level of mental illness. Um another one is that which is very distressing to me is that it's a sign of weakness. Uh it's not. Um, you know, uh, those are some of the big ones that I hear. You know, I should be able to do this by myself, you know, that kind of self-chastising statement.

Alison Herlihy 22:49

Yeah.

Sherry Bishop 22:50

Um you know, everybody needs a hand at some point, and therapy can be a very uh positive tool to use.

Alison Herlihy 23:03

Um, just because you can do something by yourself doesn't mean that you have to.

Sherry Bishop 23:09

True, true.

Alison Herlihy 23:11

We we don't have to choose to do things like the hardest, most punishing way that is available.

Sherry Bishop 23:16

No, you know, you know, learning, learning is a component of our lives over a lifetime. Um I I have a quote on my desk, it's from Michelangelo, and um he lived to a very old age, even though I don't know when he lived, I can't remember, but the 1500s maybe a long time ago. But at a very senior age, maybe in his 80s, he made the statement in Italian, but it basically the statement was, I am still learning. And to me, that is an extremely exciting prospect. Um, yes, you know, we are still learning.

Alison Herlihy 24:03

Yeah, that's beautiful. Yes, yeah. Well, you know, I think a lot of people hesitate to engage in therapy for other reasons too, because of cost and time, or you know, worrying about what people might think. What would you say to somebody that that has those concerns?

Sherry Bishop 24:22

Well, like any service, I mean, there is a cost that is incurred when one seeks therapy. Um, there are different levels of uh fee schedules, though, and that's important to know.

Alison Herlihy 24:38

Um, you can go the private pay route where you pay out of pocket for your uh sessions, and that might, you know, if somebody's worried about it showing up on their insurance, for instance, you know, if they have those fears, they might choose to pay cash or private pay, as you say, on purpose.

Sherry Bishop 24:57

Yes, and more people do that than you uh would typically think, yes. Yeah, but then there's also the utilization of insurance, and and then there's a copay assigned to that, of course. Um, but there are also agencies that provide uh sliding fee scales, and uh let me correct that. It's not only agencies, some therapists will provide uh sliding fee scales also according to income.

Alison Herlihy 25:28

Um provide online services too, right? Like if somebody has a work situation where they're not able to come in. Correct, telehealth. Um that's very like we all get those alerts on our phones every week that tell us how many minutes or hours we were on, you know, looking at our phone or on social media or whatever. And there probably aren't many people that haven't wasted a few hours a week doing stuff like that. And if you know, if you can do that, if you really need therapy, you can find an hour to go do it, you know. Oh, sure. I mean, you know, that we can we can choose to prioritize what is helpful, you know, when like it seems like the kind of like numbing out and poor coping mechanism things like you kind of mentioned earlier, whether it's drinking or scrolling on your phone or just like zoning out in front of the TV or shopping or gambling or whatever, like if those things feel good to you, you can find the time to do them. But you know, you could choose to reallocate your time in a different way that's more helpful to you in the long term. Yes.

Sherry Bishop 26:36

Well, you you know, to try to live with a constant dopamine hit as a way of approaching life, um, it's a pretty risky way to do that.

Alison Herlihy 26:50

Yeah, for sure. Um, what about the you know, some people are worried that people will know or what people will think. What what do you have to say to people that are worried about that?

Sherry Bishop 27:01

Well, all of therapy is confidential, uh, and it's very important not to uh overlook that. Um I don't you know we are emotional beings, we are physical beings, and we're spiritual beings, and something can not function at its peak in any of those realms. Um if there was something wrong physically, most people go to the doctor, they don't hesitate. Uh yeah, if it's in the emotional realm, um there can be a hesitancy, you know. But I want to encourage people to understand that we're all wounded in some way. That is part of the human condition, and it's important to embrace it, not run from it. Actually, you can't run from it, it will follow you wherever you go. So, are you gonna tune it up and function at the healthiest level you can? Are you gonna continue limping along?

Alison Herlihy 28:26

Um you know, it makes me think of that. What is that Japanese concept that they call like wabi-sabi? Is that what it's called? Yeah. Where like they take things that are broken and put them back together in a way that makes them like functional. You know what I'm talking about?

Sherry Bishop 28:44

No, that's called Kitsuji.

Alison Herlihy 28:46

That's right.

Sherry Bishop 28:47

It's a porcela. If it's a porcelain vase, they will use gold to fill in where the cracks were and glue it all back together. Yeah, which is which is a very beautiful concept because it creates a different but more beautiful whole. And um, yeah, you know, we're all in this, you know.

Alison Herlihy 29:14

Yeah, everybody's going through something, whether you know they are or not, you know. Yeah.

Daily Routines That Keep You Steady

Alison Herlihy 29:20

Well, what can what are some practical tips of things that somebody can do today if they're feeling overwhelmed or really stressed, but they're not sure about starting therapy yet?

Sherry Bishop 29:33

Um the one that pops to mind most quickly is to try to maintain the routines of living. Um, be very aware and cognizant of the need for that. And when I talk about that, I mean things that are in the drive states that we uh live with as people. Um sleep is a big one. Healthy sleep patterns are essential, and that's fully under an individual's control. Nutrition. You know, we are what we eat. Um sometimes when people get uh to not feeling well, they may seek hits of sugar off and on over the day just to sustain them for a quick burst of energy. Um again, that ultimately is gonna work against health. Or the opposite and not eat. Yeah, that too. Yeah, yes, yeah. Anything that goes pushes out to the extremes, overeating, not eating, too much sleep, too little sleep.

Alison Herlihy 30:46

Yeah.

Sherry Bishop 30:46

Um, you know, those those are again, you know, I guess going back to the warning signs we talked about. Anything that's out there that doesn't bump around somewhere in that golden mean in the middle, um should should alert you to a need to look at things.

Alison Herlihy 31:03

So these are kind of all those basic things that I think most of us know are things we need to do to like stay healthy in general, but get overlooked or pushed to the side for a million different reasons. Like correct. Exercise is another one enough sleep, exercise, drinking water, yeah, nutrition, all those kind of things.

Sherry Bishop 31:25

The thing about exercise, too, they say that you know, if you can walk, it doesn't have to be a run, it doesn't have to be, you know, an intense pace. Walk, get outside, get in nature, um, breathe deeply. Um 30 minutes a day is more than adequate, and it doesn't have to be done in one 30-minute segment. It can be broken down, say 10 minutes at breakfast, 10 at noon, 10 in the evening. I don't know any human being that can't manage that if they elect to. If they can walk. That's true.

Alison Herlihy 32:04

Yeah. I know I a few years ago I started walking a mile every morning before work without having like um headphones in. So, you know, normally we have all these constant inputs, whether it's like musics or podcasts or news or whatever. And I started doing that very intentionally. And I mean, I feel like I get some of my best ideas on those walks.

Sherry Bishop 32:27

Oh, sure. And you know, it puts you it creates an attunement not only to the external world, but also more to the internal world. And so many times when we don't feel well, we numb off to ourselves.

Alison Herlihy 32:43

Yeah.

Sherry Bishop 32:44

Um, I remember one day when I was going through kind of a rough, a rough time, not kind of a rough time. I I walked outside and I was walking. I know this sounds anyway. I looked down, I was walking on asphalt, I looked down, and there was one yellow flower somehow had pushed up through that asphalt and was sitting there very proud and in full bloom. And I thought, wow, you know, that thing has an urge to live and to thrive, and and so can I. Um, you know, it's it's just it's very important to not pull back from life, to remain engaged in it.

Alison Herlihy 33:39

Yeah, that's great insight.

How To Reach Sherry Bishop

Alison Herlihy 33:42

Well, um, mom Sherry Bishop, uh if people are interested in reaching out to you about therapy or learning more, where can they find you?

Sherry Bishop 33:53

Um I uh work at um JB Counseling, and um that phone number is 251-260-9594. Um the website is jbcounseling llc.com. Um, I also have a psychology today profile uh that one could look at and read. Okay.

Alison Herlihy 34:24

Yes. Well, thank you so much for sharing your insight and your experience and encouragement today. Um, if you know if there's one takeaway from this conversation, I think it's that you don't have to go through divorce or any other major life transition alone. Building the right support team legally and emotionally can help you move forward with strength and clarity. If today's episode resonated with you, I encourage you to reach out for the support you need. And as always, thank you for listening to the Herlihy H Family Law Podcast. We'll see you next time.

Closing Takeaway And Support

Intro/Close 34:58

Thank you for tuning in to the Herlihy Family Law Podcast. Remember, you don't have to face family law challenges alone. Visit Herlihy FamilyLaw.com or call two five one four three two seven nine zero nine to learn more.