Kind Of A Big Book Deal

Episode 9 - The Basics: What Bestseller Lists Don't Tell You: NYT, USA Today

• Meghan Stevenson

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In this episode, publishing pro Meghan Stevenson breaks down the truth behind bestseller lists—and it’s not as straightforward as you might think. From the mysterious and curated New York Times list to the purely data-driven USA Today list and the sometimes-misleading Amazon categories, Meghan pulls back the curtain on what these rankings actually mean.

She explains why the USA Today list is the most objective, how bulk buys can skew numbers, and why some wildly successful books never make any list at all. Meghan also highlights the power of word-of-mouth marketing and makes the case for aiming to become a backlist bestseller—a book that sells steadily over time rather than peaking quickly.

Whether you're writing your first book or just curious about the publishing industry, this episode is full of real talk, insider tips, and a few laughs. You’ll walk away with a clearer understanding of how to set smart, sustainable goals for your book's success.

Find the 3Ps freebie here: https://meghanstevenson.kit.com/50230df9e1

Episode Highlights:
(0:00) Intro
(1:11) The three main bestseller lists
(1:58) The truth about Amazon’s subcategories
(3:41) Amazon’s “most read” vs. “most sold”
(4:32) How the New York Times list is curated
(6:20) Backlist bestsellers like Atomic Habits
(7:36) Why USA Today is the most objective list
(8:25) How word-of-mouth drives lasting success
(13:22) Bulk buys and bestseller list manipulation
(15:45) No publishing police: The Wild West of lists
(17:02) Why aiming for backlist success is better
(19:06) Preview of the next episode with Elaine Herring
(20:21) Outro


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Traditional publishing expert Meghan Stevenson blasts open the gates of the “Big 5” – Penguin Random House, Simon & Schuster, HarperCollins, Hachette, and Macmillan – to share what every entrepreneur and expert needs to know about landing a book deal.

In episodes released every other Monday, Meghan shares wisdom and stories from 20+ years in publishing as well as interviews with authors, literary agents, and editors. She also answers questions from listeners like you.

Whether you are an experienced entrepreneur with an empire, or are just starting out – this podcast will help you understand what you need to do in order to turn your dream of being a bestselling author into real life.

Speaker 1:

Recently I had a client reach the USA Today bestseller list but not the New York Times list, why the only people who know work at the New York Times. Welcome to the Kind of a Big Book Deal podcast, where entrepreneurs come to learn about traditional publishing. I'm your host, megan Stevenson. After working as an editor for two of the biggest traditional publishers, I started my own business helping entrepreneurs become authors. To date, my clients have earned over $5 million from publishers like Penguin, random House, simon Schuster and HarperCollins. In these podcast episodes, I blast open the well-kept gates to traditional publishing. I'll explain what every entrepreneur needs to know about landing a book deal without losing your mind. I'm going to share stories, answer your questions, interview the successful authors I've worked with and probably say platform more than a tech bro. So if you dream of landing on a bestseller list but have no idea how, this is the podcast for you, and I am so, so glad you're here. The podcast for you, and I am so, so glad you're here.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so when we talk about bestsellers, what are we really talking about? To me, as a publishing professional, there are really three lists that matter. The first, and this is the least important, is the Amazon list specifically the most read and the most selling lists the New York Times, which most people think of as the bestseller list, and the USHLA list, which is actually the most objective and true bestseller list there is out there, shockingly. So let's dig into each of these lists, starting with Amazon. So Amazon's a little more complex. I'm just going to warn you we're going to take a little detour into Amazon land as we go into this. So, even though Amazon is the number one bookseller in the United States and probably around the world, their numbers and business practices are a huge unknown. It's kind of bonkers claim to be best-selling authors because they hit number one in a subcategory on Amazon and, honestly, these subcategories can be really niche and really small and they're not, in my opinion, all that real, like you would never see them in a traditional bookstore. And in my opinion, you're not really a best-selling author if you've only hit number one in one of these weird subcategories, mostly because you can hit those lists by selling just a few hundred copies, if that, let's dig into these numbers a little bit more.

Speaker 1:

So, according to Cercana Book Scan, which tracks book sales and this is something we use as industry insiders as well there were approximately 500,000 books published in 2023, probably a little bit more than that and even though book sales as a whole are actually increasing year over year good news for all of us to more than 767 million individual copies sold. That actually averages out to only 1534 copies per book title. So only 1500 books basically, basically for everybody that's writing their own book and, as you might guess, that is far, far less than what the bestseller lists require. But you know, selling that many copies you know 1534 could still get you to be an Amazon bestseller. Contrast that any other list, though and you're selling're selling. You know at least 20 times that anything on the new york times bestseller list has gotta sell at least 10 000 or more copies in a week. So that explains why you know I look personally to the most read and most sell, most sold bestseller lists on amazon rather than those category rankings.

Speaker 1:

To me, the category rankings are than those category rankings. To me, the category rankings are not exactly bullshit, but they're not exactly useful. Versus most read, which tells me what's actually being consumed, at least on Kindle and through Audible, which are Amazon's primary ways of gathering that data. Most sold on Amazon, that list tends to be reflective of what's on the other bestseller list, right? So it can be a nice little kind of cheat to figure out what's on the bestseller list. So now that we're done with Amazon and blowing up the spot of many Amazon bestselling authors, we can talk about the New York Times list, which is where a lot of people want to end up when they work with me, right? A lot of people come to me and they say Megan, I want to be a New York Times bestseller. So, unlike other bestseller lists which are based on sales numbers alone, Amazon's is like that, usa Today is like that.

Speaker 1:

The New York Times is different. The New York Times is a curated list based on their own factors which are unknown to both the traditional publishing industry and the general public. This used to be a super well-kept secret. It's not so much that way anymore. The general public this used to be a super well-kept secret. It's not so much that way anymore. But make no mistake, the way that the new york times puts their bestseller list together is a better kept secret than anything I've personally ever seen, short of my grandmother's bread recipe, which she intentionally left incomplete on any recipe card she ever gave to anybody, and basically making that bread impossible to replicate since she died in 2005. It's sort of bonkers, but amazing Again, bonkers.

Speaker 1:

I said it again. So if you figure out how the New York Times is determining their bestseller list, come talk to me. I would love to know because it's a mystery. It is seriously a mystery to anyone other than that single person sitting in an office overlooking Times Square. Right, let me know, because none of us really know how the New York Times list is put together.

Speaker 1:

Personally, I'd honestly be surprised if there's a consistent system outside of personal bias, because there's just that much inconsistency in the list as the New York Times produces it and, honestly, in 2025, it's hard for a new title to even appear on the New York Times bestseller list because the majority of both the advice how to and miscellaneous list which is really where the titles I work on sort of land and both the paperback and hardcover nonfiction lists are either, you know, celebrity books or what we call backlist bestsellers, meaning that they've been out for a while and continue to sell. Atomic Habits is a great example of this by James Clear, because that has been on the list for literally 266 weeks as I'm recording this in March 2025. And, fun fact that book has been on the bestseller list since before we heard of COVID-19. Yeah, it's been that long. That is some hardcore staying power, am I right? It totally is. So there are rumors, obviously, of being able to buy your way onto the list through bulk buys or some crazy strategies of you know, buying individual copies from different URLs and different you know IP addresses on Amazon. But to my knowledge, my authors have never tried that or done it successfully. That I know of anyway. And when you do do that, the New York Times is caught onto that shit because they would market with that little dagger symbol you sometimes see, because the New York Times is, you know, likes to make an obvious digs like that, right, atomic Habits has the dagger.

Speaker 1:

So let's go back into the bestseller lists. So in addition to Amazon, in addition to the New York Times list, there's also the USA Today list. Personally, it's my favorite list. It's because it is extensive. It is the most objective. Because it is extensive, it is the most objective and GASP, actually based on true sales data. So I love looking at the USA Today list because it shows me what's selling, both on the front list, meaning books published within the last year and the backlist, which is books older than a year. There's also a ton of customization you can do on that list by category and things like that. It's also free. So if you go to USA Today bestseller list, you'll be able to look at it.

Speaker 1:

So now you know what bestseller lists are real and considered legit by the traditional publishers and booksellers and readers right Primarily the New York Times and the USA Today, followed by Amazon. Now we can talk about how to land on those lists, followed by Amazon. Now we can talk about how to land on those lists. So, at a really basic level, books sell because readers know about them and the readers who buy that book love it and tell their friends about it. That is like the best way to sell a book is word of mouth. So books like Atomic Habits by James Clear, you know they've been on the bestseller list for hundreds of weeks because the author's audience helped to establish the book in the market and you know from there the readers spread the word and you know, then when a book by a so-called you know, unknown person becomes a bestseller, the media picks that up right and the books get bigger and bigger and bigger. So like Colleen Hoover is a great example of that right. She sold a lot of copies when she was self-published. That got you know, noticed by people, and then you know, soon she's this huge author with multiple movies starting playing lively. So as an author, you can make that work for you when you know how these lists work. So I'm going to share some insider knowledge and say that there are bestselling books that never hit any bestseller list. So among entrepreneurs, profit first, by Mike Mikkelwitz stands out. It's sold over 200,000 copies since being published in 2017, which is by any means a commercial success, but has never hit a bestseller list. Check that out, right, and that's what we call a backlist bestseller.

Speaker 1:

I've got a great example that I worked on myself. It is a little book called the Dyslexic Advantage. So when I met the authors Brock and Fernette Eide, their book had actually been canceled by another publisher because they didn't deliver a manuscript on time, right, and my boss offered them a deal. And when Eide's delivered the manuscript didn't deliver a manuscript on time, right, and my boss offered them a deal. And when ids delivered the manuscript, it was twice as long as it needed to be. So I came up with, you know, a way to shorten and organize the manuscript and hand held the authors through the revision process and the dyslexic advantage came out in 2011. While it was not a hit an instant hit by any means the Dyslexic Advantage found its audience. So in 2023, the original version of that book was still selling approximately 200 copies a month, despite being over 10 years old.

Speaker 1:

Now, that's not publicity. That's not even the IDs and their amazing business helping children. You know very close to where I live now in Washington state. Instead, it is the book selling because of word of mouth. What I said earlier, right, the best way to sell a book is through word of mouth. So sales came from a parent of a dyslexic child talking to another parent of a dyslexic child and recommending the book, or a school buying it for their teachers, and that resulted in over 110,000 books sold and an updated and revised edition being published by Penguin.

Speaker 1:

So, as entrepreneurs, as experts, that's the kind of lasting success we want for our books. That's what I want for my clients. I don't want that flashy one week appearance on some list somewhere, even though calling yourself a best-selling author is pretty cool, right, but like it doesn't last. So we want to make sure that, like. We are looking to sell your book in the best way it is meant to be sold, and often that is by creating what we're calling a best, a backlist bestseller. Right, being able to say, hey, we're gonna push and establish this in the market and then, as as it finds you know audience to read it, they're going to hand it off and say, oh my God, you have to read Worthy by Jamie Kern Lima, or oh my God, you have to read Rich AF by Vivian too right, and we're going to keep handing it off, keep handing it off, keep handing it off, and that's how you're going to get the sales that you inevitably want. So one last note at the beginning of the show I mentioned a client who landed on the USA Today list but not the New York Times list, and that is not the first time this has happened.

Speaker 1:

So about five years ago I had a similar experience where a client landed on the Wall Street Journal list the Wall Street Journal bestseller list, which no longer exists, which is too bad but not the New York Times list, because, again, the New York Times is curated. They get to decide. They get to choose who becomes the New York Times bestselling author. They get to decide. They get to choose who becomes the New York Times bestselling author. So as a publishing pro, I know there's gonna be differences between these lists. So if I wanna go sleuthing, I can.

Speaker 1:

And so, in addition to the New York Times being the New York Times and I say that lovingly as a subscriber of the New York Times the bestseller list on Amazon is going to be what sells on Amazon and Audible, which makes the USA Today list the most accurate, right? Because if we go back in and we say, okay, amazon only counts what's on Amazon, the New York Times curates. So those two lists are inevitably flawed. They don't have all the data. The USA Today list is the most accurate of any list out there, but and this is a big but sometimes that can be a tell.

Speaker 1:

So, doing research for this episode, I checked to see what lists my client had hit the most recent one. Right, she had hit the USA Today list, but not the New York Times list and, tellingly, also not the Amazon list. I'm going to pause for just a second here to let you think about that. She hit the USA Today list, but she did not hit the Amazon list and she did not hit the New York Times list. What does that mean? That means she likely to me got on the USA Today list through bulk buys, which is when you order, you know, a bunch of copies. Like you order a thousand and your friend orders a thousand and maybe you have a lot of money, so you throw, like you know, 20,000 copies, whatever, right.

Speaker 1:

There are so many reasons to do this. I actually have clients right now who are doing a massive buyback 20,000 copies when their book comes out because they do speaking, they do facilitation. Then they're going to be able to sell these books to their clients or include them in their fees to work with them, and so it's very easy for them to make money on that. So there's so many, you know, legit reasons to do that. Right, if you're a keynote speaker, you might buy a hundred books at the beginning of the year to distribute out, to get more speaking engagements totally right. A lot of authors buy copies direct from the publisher because they know they can sell those books when they travel, when they go work, when they give a talk. But other times people, especially with those who have a lot to gain from being able to call themselves best-selling authors are going to gain the system right. There are several companies out there who help authors coordinate bulk buys, who help authors land on the list. Some are legit and others are shady as hell.

Speaker 1:

Now, the New York Times caught on to this a while back, which is where you get that little dagger that I mentioned earlier right, including on books like Atomic Habits, by the way, which might explain why James Clear has been on that list for 266 weeks. In my opinion, that dagger might as well be dancing to Eminem like will the real Slim Shady, please stand up, please stand up, please stand up, right. So that's the story on bestseller lists, right, like there's ways to be able to call yourself a bestselling author legitimately. There are ways to call yourself a bestselling author legitimately. There are ways to call yourself a bestselling author sort of not legitimately, but like a little shady, a little skeptical.

Speaker 1:

There's all of that. There's no bestseller police, unfortunately, and so that is. It's kind of the wild, wild west. You'll hear me say that a lot in publishing, because there isn't a publishing cub, right, there's no publishing czar in the government. West, you'll hear me say that a lot in publishing because there isn't a publishing cop, right, there's no publishing czar in the government there's no person saying like, kind of like supplements, right, like I can take a supplement and they can say it's all natural, but I don't know what's in that supplement. Same idea about the bestseller list.

Speaker 1:

So to recap this episode and I know this episode is short but there's not that much more to say about it there are three major bestseller lists New York Times, which is sort of everybody's goal, like super goal, right, but it's curated so it's tough to land on. You kind of have to like have the New York Times like approve of you to land on the list list list, which is kind of fucked up, but I also kind of like it because I just sort of like that old school new yorkie feeling usa today all sales, pure numbers, right. And then amazon, which you know is really just about amazon. If you want to look at this and you want it to be useful, look at most sold, look, look at most read. But really it's it's only related to Amazon and Audible, so it's a limited data set.

Speaker 1:

So for what it's worth to conclude this conversation, I actually tell my clients like it's wonderful to want to be a bestseller and there's a lot of commercial reasons to want bestselling author behind your name, right, you can increase your speaking fees, you can get more keynote speeches. You can charge more for your services, you can put it on every bio ever right. But ultimately, landing on the bestseller list isn't the best goal for people to have. Instead, I would much rather have my authors play the long game, right. I'd rather have y'all become what's known as backlist bestsellers, which is books that do okay in their first year on sale but then sell consistently year after year after year after year. The reason I feel that way is because that is single-handedly the best way to have your book not only you know quote unquote make money, but also consistently support you in your business by you know word of mouth through you know, creating leads organically and positively and ultimately creating more sales for your business. It also would, then, you know, create more books.

Speaker 1:

If it's something that you want to do is, you know, have multiple books. Like. Being a backlist bestseller is a great way to do that, because, you know, for my authors, the Brock and Fernette Eide, when their book did so well, penguin probably was like, hey, do you have a second book? And they were like no, but we'll update and revise this one. That's fantastic, too right. And you're going to make more and more money the longer your book stays on shelves, regardless of whether it ever hits that bestseller list or not.

Speaker 1:

So this is episode nine of a 10-part crash course in book publishing and I hope you have done all your homework and listened to all the past episodes, because the next episode is going to be a final exam of sorts, except that it's totally take home. You get to use your books and oh, by the way, you're not being graded at all because this is a podcast. So I'm really excited because in two weeks I'm going to interview my clients and friend, the author and speaker of Elaine Lynn Herring, about her journey to being published with Penguin Life. We're going to talk about her book Unlearning Silence and the journey she took from idea to USA Today bestseller and Porchlight's best business book of 2024. There's going to be laughs, swear words and murder boards.

Speaker 1:

I really hope you tune in. You know, if you have questions about publishing, please send me a voicemail by visiting Megan Stevensoncom forward slash podcast and I'll answer it in upcoming email. It's also in the show notes for you and, as always, if you are loving this podcast, please rate and review it. It does really help us find our audience and it helps other entrepreneurs and experts with their books and also probably brings you some good karma. So it makes me feel a little less insecure. You get good karma. Other people find the podcast. There's really like no losing proposition there. So until next time, I'll see you in two weeks. Cheers to your success. Thanks for tuning into the kind of big book deal podcast. Want to see where you're at on your book journey. Check out my free quiz at meganstevensoncom forward slash quiz. That's M-E-G-H-A-N-S-T-E-V-E-N-S-O-Ncom forward slash quiz. See you next time.