Kind Of A Big Book Deal

Episode 10 - From Idea to Deal: Elaine Lin Hering's Publishing Journey

• Meghan Stevenson

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In this inspiring episode of Kind of a Big Book Deal, Meghan Stevenson talks with author and leadership expert Elaine Lin Hering about her nine-year journey to publishing her debut book Unlearning Silence with Penguin Random House. Elaine shares how the idea sparked from her work at the Harvard Negotiation Project, what held her back, and how she finally took action. From doomscrolling on LinkedIn to securing a six-figure book deal, Elaine offers an honest, behind-the-scenes look at the emotional highs and lows of traditional publishing.

Listeners will learn how to trust their gut, why finding the right team is essential, and how silence—personally, professionally, and culturally—can shape our lives more than we realize. If you’ve got a book idea and don’t know where to start, this episode is packed with real talk, laughs, and powerful lessons that will give you clarity and courage.

Find the 3Ps freebie here: https://meghanstevenson.kit.com/50230df9e1

This week’s guest is Elaine Lin Hering. She is a speaker, facilitator, and former Lecturer on Law at Harvard Law School. She works with organizations and individuals to build skills in communication, collaboration, and conflict management. She has worked on six continents and facilitated executive education at Harvard, Dartmouth, Tufts, UC Berkeley, and UCLA. She has served as the Advanced Training Director for the Harvard Mediation Program and a Managing Partner for a global leadership development firm. She has worked with coal miners at BHP Billiton, micro-finance organizers in East Africa, mental health professionals in China, and senior leadership at the U.S. Department of Commerce. Her clients include American Express, Chevron, Google, Nike, Novartis, PayPal, Pixar, and the Red Cross. She is the author of the USA Today bestselling book Unlearning Silence: How to Speak Your Mind, Unleash Talent, and Live More Fully (Penguin, 2024).

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Sign up for Elaine’s newsletter and buy a copy of her bestselling book.

Episode Highlights:
(0:00) Intro
(2:01) How the book idea was born, and how silence shows up in our lives
(5:15) Realizing the world needed this book and taking the leap
(9:50) Creating the book proposal and why it’s worth investing in help
(14:56) Choosing a literary agent and build


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Have a great idea for a book but don't know where to start?MeghanStevenson.com/quiz


Traditional publishing expert Meghan Stevenson blasts open the gates of the “Big 5” – Penguin Random House, Simon & Schuster, HarperCollins, Hachette, and Macmillan – to share what every entrepreneur and expert needs to know about landing a book deal.

In episodes released every other Monday, Meghan shares wisdom and stories from 20+ years in publishing as well as interviews with authors, literary agents, and editors. She also answers questions from listeners like you.

Whether you are an experienced entrepreneur with an empire, or are just starting out – this podcast will help you understand what you need to do in order to turn your dream of being a bestselling author into real life.

Speaker 1:

I remember taking a walk around the block. You know I narrowed it down to two imprints at Penguin Random House. I knew I wanted to be at PRH and it was really a let me trust my gut, one of the first times I trusted my gut of yeah, I think this isn't just a business book. And so one big idea to change the world. The big idea is unlearning silence, and we went with it.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to the Kind of a Big Book Deal podcast where entrepreneurs come to learn about traditional publishing. I'm your host, megan Stevenson. After working as an editor for two of the biggest traditional publishers, I started my own business helping entrepreneurs become authors. To date, my clients have earned over $5 million from publishers like Penguin, random House, simon Schuster and Harper Collins. In these podcast episodes, I blast open the well-kept gates to traditional publishing. I'll explain what every entrepreneur needs to know about landing a book deal without losing your mind. I'm going to share stories, answer your questions, interview the successful authors I've worked with and probably say platform more than a tech bro.

Speaker 2:

So if you dream of landing on a bestseller list but have no idea how, this is the podcast for you and I am so, so glad you're here. So I am thrilled today to introduce my author and my friend, elaine Lynn Herring and her book, which you can see behind her on YouTube Unlearning Silence, which came out earlier in the spring of 2024 from Penguin Life, which is, of course, an imprint of Penguin Random House, the number one publisher in the country. This is episode 10 of your crash course in traditional book publishing, so if you have no idea what I'm talking about go back to episode one and listen to all those episodes, because this episode is something that you need like prerequisites for. So let's talk with Elaine. So Elaine was bringing up something before we jumped in studio about our very first call. So, elaine, I would love for you to tell this story.

Speaker 1:

Well, I think it begs the question of how I came to find you. So I was doom scrolling on LinkedIn at one point because, as you do, because I had been spiraling around. Let me back up. I first had the idea for this book in 2015 and my book came out in 2024. So nine years and this is probably 2022.

Speaker 1:

I'm doom scrolling because it had been six months since I bought the book off Amazon, called how to Write a Book Proposal, and it just was not working. Like I was spinning, I was spiraling, it was a waste of time. And then this ad for Megan Stevenson Books pops up in my LinkedIn feed and was like nonfiction, how to books? I was like I think that's what I'm trying to write. How-to books. I was like I think that's what I'm trying to write. So I think I did like an intake form or something to you and had a conversation with my husband who was like is this legit? And, as you know, megan, he did a deep dive in the internet to your business's tax filing status of like who is this? Can you trust who you find on the internet? And so I was just flashing back to meeting you for the first time and you saying Elaine, your idea is like gold at the bottom of the BART tracks right, which is the subway in San Francisco where you and I have both lived. And then here we are.

Speaker 1:

The book is out. It's translated in five languages. So far, I've approved the covers for the Arabic and Thai translations. It just hit the Porchlight Best Business Book list of 2024. So yeah, we've just we've had a journey.

Speaker 2:

We have, we have and it's so funny about it too, because elaine is sort of bearing a little bit of a lead in that she had a connection to this very huge book called difficult conversations, which is held up as, like this, amazing. We're going to talk about backlist bestsellers. We talked about them in last episode go check that out but it is a backlash bestseller. So this is basically like taylor swift showing up in an intake form, but I didn't know that in taylor, but also taylor switched in like 2008.

Speaker 2:

so a prerequisite for listening to your podcast is also under tail understanding taylor swift I mean, I'm gonna do a whole episode about taylor swift's like branding, but yes, uh for sure, like definitely okay. So you see this ad and, like a lot of people think Facebook ads are sketchy because they can be, you know, still say it's still sketchy, even sketchier in like 2020. Um, cause, no one had realized that LinkedIn was a cool platform in 2020. So let's think about I want to back up, actually cause you said you had this idea starting in 2015.

Speaker 2:

How did you first come up with the idea for unlearning silence? Because it was also your connection to this big book, but also then the idea because, remember, this is coming in in 2020 or 2021. Um, post george floyd in the world where, like tenisi coates and ibrahim kendi are like on the new york times bestseller list and everyone is discovering dei, all of a sudden and by everyone I mean white people. So, like, when did how did you first come up with this idea? Where did it come from? How did it percolate?

Speaker 1:

yeah, the idea came from my long-standing work with the harvard negotiation project, because difficult conversations this big backlist seller is the spawn of getting to yes. This big backlist seller is the spawn of Getting to yes another big backlist seller sort of the negotiation textbook and so I had been teaching Getting to yes, difficult Conversations and feedback work for more than a decade. Unlearning Silence was the reaction to that of what's missing. We spend all this time and energy investing money, time, energy in learning these skills and some people still don't negotiate or have the difficult conversations or give and receive feedback. What gives? Oh, it's because we've learned to stay silent. So it has. Traditionally, if you're not being heard, the advice is you've just got to speak up, and I gave that advice. I received that advice, but it still didn't work.

Speaker 1:

So, 2020 happens, george Floyd was murdered. I'm standing in my side yard, having taken out the trash, and I thought actually, I think everybody's gotten it wrong. It's not just that we're not speaking up, it's that we've learned to stay silent. We've benefited from staying silent and, if I think about it, I was the only non-white partner at a global leadership development firm. My well-intentioned colleagues are also silencing me with their actions, even as they are saying we care about you, we care about what you think. Well, that's not what your actions convey to me. So unlearning silence is. I think we've got the question wrong. The question isn't how do you speak up more, better, louder? The question is what role does silence play in my life, in my leadership, on my team? What's the silence I need to unlearn that I can own? What do the people around me need to unlearn in how they're silencing me? And, of course, silence baked into the systems we're all part of.

Speaker 1:

So then that shift came to. Oh, I think this, this, the way I'm telling the story, makes it sound like I had more confidence than I actually did at the time. But it was a. I think there's a thing here. No one else has written a commercial book, a mainstream book, on silence. There's a ton of research papers on it. How do I translate this skill set into something that is more accessible? And so prototyping it with my clients, it getting resonance, other people saying, oh, I think you're onto something, and then for me at the time it was just all right. It's time you know, it's been five, six, seven years let's actually do something about this rather than wait for someone else to give me permission or wait for my turn to do it. I love that.

Speaker 2:

I love that, though, because I think a lot of people put that off, you know, because it's hard to take action on an idea, even if you're workshopping it, but you were taking steps that some other people don't in that sharing with other people, being unafraid that, like, the idea would get out there or get stolen. So, from my side, when I saw this intake form which we don't do that anymore, but the intake form coming in I thought of two books which is Quiet, by Susan Cain, which I've never actually read. I'm just going to out myself here, that's okay. You get the gist from that, I understand, but I don't need it. I'm actually more quiet and more solitary than people usually expect when they meet me, but still, all this energy has to generate somewhere. But yeah, the quiet, and then white fragility, which I started and did not finish, and I thought, well, there's a lot of white women out here not finishing white fragility, and so that was our comp, which I had right away.

Speaker 2:

Like, basically, when I saw your intake form which is part of the reason you want to hire authors, someone who has deep publishing knowledge, because a good like thing that will happen is I'll have like three or four books or three or four authors over the last 20 years that remind me of this book. So let's talk about I have to commend your husband because he's the only person to look at business filings and find some really sketchy website that said it was like not a female owned company and I was like I will give you my LLC documentation because I got nothing to hide, but it was just really funny. But let's talk about after. I convinced you to work with me, which was not the longest convincing I've ever done to people, but it did take some explaining, which I'm always happy to do. So what was the proposal process like for you as the author, like putting together your book proposal, and how is it different or more helpful than the book you bought?

Speaker 1:

Let me back up, though, because if we're thinking about the entrepreneur or the expert, who's thinking, do I do this? For me, it was such a calculated decision. Number one, I don't know you yet at that point in time. Your LLC filings helped. The way that you showed up and articulated helped, but it really was a question of am I willing to invest in myself and bet on myself? And talking about your fees, I did a calculation of okay, can I gamble with what is the equivalent of I need to facilitate in the room 10 workshops, and then I can roll the dice, because working together with you on a proposal doesn't mean I'm going to get a book deal Exactly Although I trust you way more and this is why I refer people to you of Megan's going to call it as she sees it, and it's no BS. And if I always say to people, if Megan's willing to work with you, you have a really good chance, because she's not going to jerk you around the way that other people would. I've heard you have the conversation with people of it no, like doesn't have legs, but it is a. It was a. Am I willing to roll the dice Same with you of are you willing to roll the dice with me.

Speaker 1:

And then the proposal process was and why I'm such a big proponent of find someone you can actually trust and you, megan, are the only one I can vouch for. Right, there are a bunch of people who have reached out to me since to be like are you working on another book? And I was like A, not for another decade, and we can talk about why. B I already got someone. So it's like do you go to the dentist? Do you leverage other expertise?

Speaker 1:

Publishing is not my zone of genius. I have never done it before. You have done it hundreds, thousands of times for years. Why wouldn't you partner with someone who actually understands the context that you're navigating? The thing you want to do has reps under their belt already, versus reading this book. That does give a guideline but, frankly, didn't give me much and I think we were a really good match in how we were working with Google Docs and treating iterations back and forth. I needed that structure. I needed someone to say here's your assignment, go do it. And I was like oh, I got this. Like you give me an assignment, give me a timeline, I can hit the timeline and also even you saying the comps the storyline to quiet and white fragility right. I constantly credit you on that. I couldn't have told that story. Finding the storyline of why A what publishing would listen to B what it is, that's not my zone of genius.

Speaker 2:

So let me acknowledge my zone of genius and build myself a team that has that expertise which was you Exactly, yeah, and I think we're very complimentary in terms of our personalities as well. What was something that surprised you about the proposal process where you were like I would have never thought that X mattered or Y was a big?

Speaker 1:

deal. Yeah, I mean, what wasn't surprising about the process? I just like I had read one book proposal prior to trying to put my own together, and if I were more savvy, I would go talk with other authors and ask to see their proposals and ask. You know, I would ask a lot more questions. I just didn't know what I was doing. I had never gone down this path. I'd watched other people go down this path, but there's so much that people don't tell you. And so I feel like you held my hand through it and it was like, okay, it's okay, megan knows what's coming next, megan knows what we need to do.

Speaker 1:

And that segmentation of don't look, you know, two years ahead of time, just look at the next task really helped it fit into every. You know we were running a multimillion dollar company. I was raising raising a toddler at that point, maybe a baby, I don't remember right Like life was still lifing. But the proposal came together because we had a timeline, we had a to-do list, we had a structure, I had accountability with you and also, if I was going to, instead of spinning, I would just tag you in the Google doc being like clearly I've hit a wall. You would like change a comma or like change the order of the sentence and it would make sense. Right, it was like it was such an efficient use of time. That are your skill sets. That are not my skill sets.

Speaker 2:

And it's also the reason I don't do jigsaw puzzles, because that's all I'm doing all day. But I love jigsaw puzzles. See, I hate that I can't. My husband's like do it. My team did it at our team retreat and I was like, no Good for you, bless your hearts, but no, all right. So let's talk about getting you a literary agent, because a lot of people come to me and they say, hey, can you help me get a literary agent? And I'm always like yes, but also and you have to work with us on a proposal, I'm not just introducing you to my friends and colleagues willy nilly, so tell me about that process. Were you nervous?

Speaker 1:

Was I nervous. I remember when we were negotiating the contract of working on the proposal. I remember when we were negotiating the contract of working on the proposal, we did not put in, you did not agree to a contract term of, and at the end of the proposal, I will introduce you to literary agents. And you're like, look, I can't burn my relationships. And I was like, oh right, you don't yet know that I'm not crazy.

Speaker 2:

Exactly, and I tell people that I don't know what you're going to do. I don't know what you're going to do.

Speaker 1:

And that's totally fair, right, but I know that I'm I mean, I think I I turned out to be a pretty good client. Yes, right and um, but there's just a. You're building a relationship with your teammates over time and so it was taking you on your word that if the proposal came together, you would make introductions, which you did. Was I nervous? No, it just was the next step. Right, it's like what's the next thing on the list? And there's no way through but through. So it's just like what's the next conversation? And we met with you introduced me to a couple of different literary agents.

Speaker 1:

I've now said this in front of my literary agent, rachel, so I can repeat it here which is when I met her, I was sort of like I guess this will work. It wasn't like this, which is like an awful thing to say, but I didn't know what I was looking for. To be clear, she has turned out to be an amazing, she is an amazing agent, has been a really good fit for me, has gone above and beyond. I'm so grateful to get to call her my agent and my friend. And I didn't know what I was looking for. It was sort of like do you get my project Seems like you get my project more than the other people do, and if I'm going to be spending a lot of time with you, am I okay with spending time with you and I don't like going by like the pizza rule or the coffee chat, like do I want to grab coffee metric.

Speaker 1:

But it was also like I don't understand this world enough that why don't we try it? And I think if it doesn't work out, just because I have an agent doesn't mean I'm going to get a book deal, so let's try it and then if we need to tweak later, if we need to try something else, we'll try something else. But it just felt like the next step in the process and I think that was very much the whole ethos throughout the entire process All right, what's the next step? What's the next step? Oh my gosh, this is a marathon and I don't know what mile we're on. But the people around me Megan and now Rachel, my agent, like they all seem to know what they're doing. So I'm going to trust that, because it's how do we build the team with expertise that I don't have, so I get to actually just do the things I know and that I'm good at.

Speaker 2:

Right, and I think too, you know, for for me, I'm always looking at what I tell people, and I'll do a whole episode on how to know if a literary agent is right for you and more about their relationship. Maybe I'll even get a literary agent on.

Speaker 1:

Don't, don't take my like. I guess this is standard, Like I really didn't know what.

Speaker 2:

I was doing. But essentially it is like building a team and you want somebody who's going to. I always say you want someone that you trust with your bank account, but you also want to have a drink with, because that's the relationship right, it is a business relationship, but it's also a super intimate relationship and a very tied together relationship and when it goes wrong it's like a breakup and so you don't. You want to take it really seriously. Okay, awesome. So let's talk about meeting with publishers, because I think everyone sort of. I remember when Rachel called me and told me that you had gotten a deal, and Rachel was like freaking out and I don't want to share all the details, but let's just say you're kind of a really big deal, say you're kind of a really big deal and so tell me about the the fancy thing of like meeting with the publishers and having all these people interested in your book?

Speaker 1:

yeah, can we also highlight that that I'm a big deal in that? I don't at that point in time and even now it doesn't feel that way I mean, you're still a person, right, you still have to clean your toilet.

Speaker 2:

You're still a person, or hire someone to clean your toilet.

Speaker 1:

Yes, yes, there's a piece of my book about Toilet Gate that I feel like you're referencing. There. I didn't know I was Taylor Swift when I did the intake form. I didn't understand what was going on. I didn't have a benchmark because I'd never done this before and I was really like, okay, Rachel, how does this work? So she said, I'm going to go out to editors with your proposal and if they're interested, they'll want to meet with you to sort of kick the tires, see if you actually know what you're talking about, see how well you take feedback. So, you know, a couple of those calls showed up on my Google calendar. Great, I had them. And then more started showing up on my calendar and I was like, Rachel, what is going on here? Again, get an agent who actually knows what they're doing, because they are talking you through this process. It's not trying to me, it's not worth trying to save the 15% commission to DIY. This is not a time to DIY at all. From the proposal to anywhere, Build your team.

Speaker 1:

And at some point, the tenor in the conversations with these publishers we ended up meeting with 16 different publishing teams. The tenor of the conversation changed to, like you know, trying to pressure test and interview me to I think it was portfolio sent me a deck like a PowerPoint deck that said we'd love to publish your book. Here's how we would market it. Here are the comps. This is what we did with Simon Sinek or whoever, and I was like this is not how this is supposed to go. I don't understand what's happening. And then there was a preempt, which I know Megan can define for you. It was a six figure offer to try to take the proposal off the table. How would you define preempt? Yeah, off the market.

Speaker 2:

It's like the publishing world. I often compare it at that stage to the housing market. Yes, or if you have a house that is hot or is desirable, oftentimes the real estate agent will pit offers against each other to try to get them up. Yeah, and so that's what happens. And so a preempt is when someone swoops in and says hey, I really love this project, I'm going to pay you a little over what I expect to be the median for you to not bother meeting with other people, for you to not bother having to take 20 offers to your author, right. So like that's what it is, and often it works. Like we've had a couple of clients take preamps no big deal, but you did not.

Speaker 1:

I did not. I did not I mean I had a conversation both with Rachel, my agent, and with my husband being like I think the right move, given that we have five more meetings with teams I've we haven't even had conversation with, I think the right move is to say no to six figures, which is is mind boggling. And it turned out to be the right move because then they came back the next day with having doubled that offer and then we said we're not taking offers, we're going to run an auction. So we did a two-day auction with publishers coming with their best and final, and then um chose to go with penguin life, which was a. Really, as an asian american woman, I was really worried about having an all white publishing team, and yet publishing is so white. So what Period? Maybe we just let that statement hang? And so it was this calculation of who do I trust with my words, with this project? Who seems to get it? How can I try to advocate a little bit in there? And actually ended up going with Penguin Life because there was this other question of is this a business book, is this a personal development book? And Penguin Life was one big idea to change the world and I thought, oh, this seems right. It's not just a business book, because silence is in all of our relationships, all of our family dynamics, and so that felt like the right home for it. But a lot of it was again like never done this before. This is my best guess at what is going to be a good home for the book, and the Penguin Life team has been phenomenal. My editor, meg Lear, is just. You know, your editor is like therapist, coach, multi-dimensional human in your life. So that was the proposal process. To be clear, at this point I hadn't written the book. It was just the proposal process.

Speaker 1:

To be clear, at this point I hadn't written the book. It was just the proposal, megan, that you and I had, yeah, crafted together and sort of the meta conversation of, wait, the book's not written. Can I even do this? I've never written a book before. Um, but I guess they're gonna buy it, so let's, let's go with it. And so they bought, we sold global rights and they were selling translations even before the book had been written. And I mean the whole journey. I still can't really wrap my head around. You know, the fact that I'm looking at the Portuguese translation and the Spanish translations on my desk is just like we're. We're eight months out from the book launching, but I still haven't fully wrapped my head around it.

Speaker 2:

You're going to need another shelf back there for all your translations. That's like what's necessary. I think we can solve for that. I think we can too, totally Okay. So I want to know, just out of curiosity, how did those two days during the auction feel? Like what did you do? Were you just like like I would be like when my clients are out, like I have a client right now who's out on submission and the agent's like we should know by tomorrow, and I'm like I really am not going to text this agent today, but I am certainly going to text him at like noon pacific time on thursday, because that's, I'll be like yo, what's up.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean I'm, I'm flashing back because, again, life lives. So, megan, there's a part of the story that I haven't spoken about that publicly, which is that we did an auction Wednesday, thursday, so prior week. While I'm um in between these publisher meetings, I find out I'm pregnant, oh my gosh. And so Monday I go in for an ultrasound there's no heartbeat on the fetus. So Wednesday, thursday, the auction was like keep your head in the game, make conscious decisions, but also knowing that I'm going to have a DNC on Friday to remove the fetus that doesn't have a heartbeat. So when I say life life's. Thursday afternoon, when I made the call to accept the life-changing offer from Penguin Random House highest moment, one of the highest moments of my life, and then Friday to go in and live one of the lowest moments of my life Book publishing right.

Speaker 1:

Life doesn't stop in the whole process that you are trying to also birth this book, and I share that because to me there's actually no perfect time. It's just a question of when might you choose to put energy toward this project, knowing that with a team in place who can hold you, hold the things you care about and also make your life easier because they actually know what they're doing. It is possible, but would I go back with the reason I'm saying I'm not going to do it again for another 10 years, and who knows if that's actually true, even though I have ideas is, you know, I'm raising a child, I'm a caregiver in multiple directions, I'm running. You know life is still there. We also had we were recovering from COVID, the whole pandemic at the time, like there, it is sort of a marvel to me that the book is out in the world and in a way that people, when they read the book, don't know the backstory.

Speaker 1:

So what was I doing during the auction? Probably writing proposals and doing the thing on my to-do list, until my agent called me, which was another great thing of, like, rachel knows what she's doing. I don't know what conversation she's having in the background or whether she's freaking out, but I don't really need to, because she's going to give me the offer, she's going to give me a perspective. She's going to ask the questions of what do you want to do? What really matters to you? No-transcript, and it was really a let me trust my gut One of the first times I trusted my gut of yeah, I think this isn't just a business book, and so one big idea to change the world. The big idea is unlearning silence and we went with that, that kind of emotional whiplash happens way more often than you might think.

Speaker 2:

I don't know what the universe is up to when it comes to book publishing. I joke about this that I don't have children. I have authors, but I honestly think that my destiny if there is destiny was like here. We're going to make her not like children. She can have her life be entirely centered around like this.

Speaker 1:

Yes, and and there's such a double standard right when I was like, oh my gosh, we're shopping this book. I didn't expect to be pregnant. How does this impact? How is publishing going to view me? Because in corporate workplaces, being pregnant is a liability. Do I disclose, do I not? And then, of course, didn't need to disclose, but what I wish I had known is that people get pregnant all the time. Authors give birth to children in addition to books, all the time. This is a thing that happens. So, if it happens, also have the conversation with your team, which I didn't. Rachel and I talked about it, and I think you got a SOS email from me at one point, megan, but I didn't feel like I could talk about it right. My place in publishing was already so tenuous as a first time author, as a woman of color, it didn't want to give them any reason not any other reason not to bet on me and what's funny about that is your.

Speaker 2:

those identities are important, but they're not as fragile as a lot of people think, like I actually would. This is broad and it's a generalization, but I would almost rather have someone who's unique in identity, like that, and then someone who's not like, because a lot of times publishers are looking for that, less so than in 2020, where everybody was like send us every author of color you have, because we need to write the ship and we need to do it right away. They've chilled out about that a little bit, but I think that in general, like, they're looking for representation a lot of the publishers, despite being super white and super female and still highly patriarchal but yeah, it's not as much I see more people worrying about that than the worry is warranted. Does that make sense?

Speaker 1:

I would agree with that, having now gone through the process.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, okay, awesome, let's talk about writing the book you get through all of this you get your big announcement, you get that life changing stuff, yeah, and then it's time to actually sit down and write this thing. So what was like a surprise to you in that process?

Speaker 1:

That I could actually write.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, You're a good writer.

Speaker 1:

I didn't know that Again the disconnect between how people see us and how we see ourselves. I think you probably thought pretty early on in meeting me that I could write and for me it wasn't until Meg, my editor, sent me the final. It was like it had been copy edited and I read the whole thing as a book that I was like, oh, this is a pretty good book I can write. And her reply was like no shit, sherlock.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean, mean, I think it's. It's so interesting. A lot of people can write. A lot of people don't know how to do book structure. That's where we come in. A lot of people don't know the conventions of books. If you look at a self-published book, you'll understand why people don't understand how books work. But that's okay. That's why you hire somebody like us and, I think, writing. I mean, I'm writing two books right now and even though I've written multiple books and helped people you know write their own books for years, I was like, how am I gonna write an 80 000 word book? And I thought, megan, what would you tell someone else? I thought, chapter by chapter, section by section, that's how you're gonna write this book, right?

Speaker 1:

yes, but the thing that was so clutch and this actually goes back to the proposal was one meeting you and I had where we came out with a table of contents that pretty much stuck through the whole project I had in my head. People had said anything worth communicating needs to fit on a two by two right grid, x, y axis, and my book didn't fit into that. Or it needs to have three components, and my book didn't fit into that. And you're like that's bullshit, it doesn't have to be that way. So you said awareness and action. I was like, oh my gosh, right, like that. That conversation was Valuable beyond. You know, I've been spinning for six plus months, maybe six years, and in one conversation with you who understands books and book structure, it was like boom, and then we just fill in the pieces right, yeah, and every, every book's gonna have its own structure.

Speaker 2:

So I have one book right now. There's two books I'm writing. One book is very conventional, you know 10 chapters, introduction, conclusion, three parts, simple. The other one is much more. It's really long, actually super long chapters, because there's only eight chapters. So these, each of these chapters is like 8,000, where it's a lot, it's a lot of, it's a lot of material, but like it's, like it makes sense, it's, it's how it works Okay.

Speaker 1:

And going to unlearning silence. If the premise of the book is everyone has their own voice, then of course there would be different book structures, like it was also the meta of learning to find and trust my own voice in this process. But that's a different, different conversation well, didn't you did?

Speaker 2:

you did, elaine, did you have a personal growth journey? And I say this with this tone in my voice yes, we hear the tone Megan Every time. Every time Can we go back to the author-therapist? No children thing.

Speaker 1:

I was going to say you don't have children, you have authors. They seem sort of synonymous to me.

Speaker 2:

A little bit. Yeah, yes, yes yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 1:

Personal growth journey ongoing.

Speaker 2:

Next question, please we also have empty nests. They grow and they leave. I haven't thought that whole analogy all the way through, but, oh my gosh, it does make me feel good. Okay, so we get the book written and you're like, wow, I wrote a good book usually actually people's like.

Speaker 2:

People's reactions like so, just to let the audience know, because we haven't talked through the whole production process. But you write the book and then it gets edited by your editor in-house at penguin or simon shuster, harper collins or wherever, and then it goes to the copy editor who fixes all of our grammar and actually makes us, like you know, speak english. Then it goes to production and it gets um flowed into a book design. So you get a pdf that looks like a book and that's usually where people are like I wrote a book. For better, for worse, it's either like I wrote a book or oh, I wrote a book, right, um. So when saw your pages, how did you react?

Speaker 1:

I think at that point it, you know it had sunk in, it was a book, it was also. It's such a long process, right? This is two years from proposal to bookshelves, basically that at that point it was like all right, you know, like let's just get this thing in the world. The big thing was the cover design and all the back and forth on that to try to get the visual. And what are the colors and what does warm and inviting actually mean? I mean, at one point I was at Ace Hardware looking at paint chips to try to come up with a color that conveyed the thing. Um, but it, I mean that's the fun stuff. And also again having a team so glad that other people were drafting and ideating and making it happen and it just sort of was more. Let me watch this process happen, because there's not that much left for me to do other than sign off on it and let's get this baby in the world or whatever, yeah, say it again other than to tell them you hate yellow or whatever it is like.

Speaker 2:

Right, you only get certain amount of leeway, but you can definitely like oh yeah, there, usually has veto power of being like I hate this, but yeah, time it's yeah the mustard yellow did not.

Speaker 1:

As you can see, mustard yellow did not make it onto the final cover.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and for listeners that are not seeing the visual, elaine's cover is a beautiful blue and white. It's very, very pretty, very vibrant. Okay, what would you say was your biggest lesson in learning how to sell and promote your book?

Speaker 1:

That it's okay to talk about it and the I am more sick of hearing myself talk about it than other people are of hearing me talk about it number one.

Speaker 1:

They don't hear every time that I talk about it, I do, which is why I'm right, like mentally, like oh my gosh, people must be so sick of me talking about this but they may not have heard. They probably didn't hear the last podcast that they did. They probably didn't read the last LinkedIn post that I did. They weren't in that last meeting, and so it really, to me, was this exercise in taking up space and in not. I didn't want to be obnoxious, and promoting a book requires you talking about it.

Speaker 1:

I think for me, the other thing that helped from a mindset perspective was it's not just about book sales.

Speaker 1:

It's not about the book doing well, it is a why did I write the book in the first place? I want people to feel seen, known and heard, and I want well-intentioned leaders to stop silencing people. Okay, so then the book is a way of getting that idea and catalyzing that change, and if I care about that, that's something I'm never going to stop talking about in life. So if you're looking for going back to the beginning of this process, make sure that the book you probably said the beginning of this process make sure that the book you probably said this to me early on make sure that the book that you're thinking about writing is something that you're not going to get sick of talking about. For me it's because it's anchored to a bigger purpose. But yeah, that like oh, I'm not as annoying as I think I am was a big learning and people hearing about it and actually being delighted to hear about it. It's new to them every time. So it is okay if it feels repetitive to me, because it means different people are actually hearing about it.

Speaker 2:

Or you have that one, stan, that's listening to everything and can't get enough.

Speaker 1:

And now has Elaine's voice in their head running around the world yes, there are those people too and they listen to the audiobook that is um recorded in my own voice, and I'm just like oh, and then it's navigating a parasocial relationship. Um, that's so hard, so hard being famous, isn't it? You know, it helps actually to have a young child who does not know that you are anyone but mom, and so it's like sticky fingerprints and help me put together legos, and that has been really grounding, um, and and that's been. Yeah, I've been grateful for that, that piece of it, even if it comes with its own complexities.

Speaker 2:

Of course, yeah Well, you've birthed one baby and now you get to raise another right.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, the book is. I'm going to say it and then your editor can edit out if it's not podcast appropriate. I was comparing, like physical childbirth to book childbirth and I would say childbirth is probably easier but longer.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's true. I mean because it's like I mean okay. So for reference, the timeline is our timeline is six months to proposal, which I think you kind of stuck to. The agent and book deal getting process is usually around three months getting you an agent and having them get a deal. Sometimes it takes longer, sometimes it's shorter, so now we're at nine months cumulatively. Most due dates are six to nine months. So then for a manuscript, a draft, to be sent to your editor, so that means we're now at let's take the long view 18 months. Then the editor has to edit it. I'd say that takes probably at least three months. Now we're down to 21 months. Then they have to put it into production. Yeah, that takes at least three months, and then they need six months to get it wherever it needs to go. So we're now talking what like two and a half years, which I think is a short timeline.

Speaker 2:

I had an author in December of 2024, when we are recording this. I told an author today who's starting her proposal next month, 2027. Totally. So that is kind of how it goes, all right. So now I have one last question for you, and it's very exciting. So what is something you would tell an entrepreneur or an expert who has a book idea and dreams of a book deal like yours, like it wants to be sitting here on this podcast recording software in three years yes, their book in the back, talking about their journey. What would you tell that person?

Speaker 1:

It's worth taking a shot and it's worth taking a next step. So those are two different ideas, but one is I was very much of the mindset going into this Let me try traditional publishing, because if it doesn't work out, I can always go hybrid herself. So let me at least try it. Best case out I can always go hybrid herself, so let me at least try it. Best case scenario I land a deal.

Speaker 1:

Worst case scenario I have a proposal and structure right, like you're still doing the work, but it's worth a shot. So at least shoot your shot and then take the next right step or a next step, because it's like 24 months, because it's like 24 months, two and a half years, whatever it is. It is such a marathon and the marathon can be really overwhelming, particularly as you slot it in with the rest of life and responsibility. But what's the next step? So what am I doing today? In service of the proposal, or in service of the book, or beta testing my ideas that the cumulative effect of each of those bite-sized pieces really does get you somewhere? So shoot your shot and take a next step I love that.

Speaker 2:

Okay, I lied because I'm gonna give you another question. Love it. What was your most fun moment of us working together? Because you know we went. You know we went to a conference. We went to a conference earlier in 2024. And, like one of the attendees, I was in a mood the day we were on our panel. I was just going off on all sorts of things and I was taking a light approach, like this podcast does, to publishing because, as you know, and I probably as our listeners know, a lot of content for authors is really super serious and I put a lot of pressure on people.

Speaker 2:

And I'm like there's enough pressure. I'm writing a book. We don't need this extra pressure around like books are so serious because they're really not Like. People in my neighborhood leave them out in the rain all the time. They're not serious. Every time I see a book in the rain I'm like Megan.

Speaker 1:

Now we're just judging your neighborhood, Megan.

Speaker 2:

A little bit. But also I was like, yeah, there's a little humility from the universe for me. What is what was like a fun or a light time? Yes, totally. That you're going to be like telling your kids or your grandkids someday about.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, well I. We referenced the toilet earlier today, and there's a story in my book of toilet gate that you and I worked on and I think you took me into your bathroom, like with your camera, to look we were talking about is this the toilet bowl or the toilet base? And I just was like, yes, like this, we're doing real work here and it is hilarious and I can't believe that you're taking me into your bathroom, that that moment sticks out.

Speaker 2:

Okay, I want to contribute my. My thing is that I was describing how to map out your book on a wall so that you don't end up like putting things like in chapter four, which they're already in chapter three, and I was like, well, you know, like a murder board, right, like what you see on, like or watching based on a true story, highly recommend. But like you see on like crime shows with like the red I don't know why they always use red string but red string. And I get through this whole explanation of like the murder board and how what I'm describing. Elaine, I want you to deliver the line you gave me, because you were like, wait, it's a you, you mean a mind map, and I was like, yes, a murder board is just so much more fun, it's like, it was just so funny. I was like you totally forgot about that. Right, like it. Yes, A mind map is, yeah, so much more fun to have it be a murder board.

Speaker 1:

It really is. I mean there's much more nuance and texture and emotion to the murder board.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's way more fun, but yeah, it's just really funny. I was just like and I use that all the time, so always. And that but that conversation of like me, like I'm in my zone, of like it's like this and this and this and you're just like you made a mind map and I was like, yes, I know, but I'm like the corporate person, I know, corporate queen and me doing me over here.

Speaker 1:

No, but that's such a key piece right On your team. What is their ethos or approach to work? Because getting to work with you of that perspective and meg meg, my editor, said the same thing like this should be fun. Like yeah, there's so much heaviness and seriousness and so what an honor to get to do this. And do the people on your team share that? And are we going to talk about murder boards and go look at toilets and is laughter okay? I mean, that's such a different approach to life than so much of books are serious, not because this is not serious, but because why not also enjoy it?

Speaker 2:

it is serious. And then also I feel like we need to do that serious work because if we don't, if we don't go check if it's the fucking toilet base or the cover or whatever, someone's gonna come for you in the comments and I'm not here for that. They're gonna come for us anyways, I know. But I can protect you against the toilet, so we're gonna go do that, right, but like, yeah, but this in itself is like a little safe harbor where you get to expect yourself and then we get to pick out what we think is appropriate for you to share and what's comfortable and safe for you to share, and then from there you know you have this output and everybody else can take it very seriously. Within our little bubble, we get to be a little easy with it.

Speaker 1:

So yeah, I mean, if I do, unsolicited advice is do not go. Do not go it alone.

Speaker 2:

I love that. I'm also anti DIY for everything. I'm like can I hire somebody to do like absolutely everything?

Speaker 1:

If you have the ability to, why why not? Also, because you meet amazing people like Megan, who are willing to contribute their genius to your project. I mean Unlearning Set. You're the first person in my acknowledgements. For a reason this book would not exist without you, and so thank you again for lending your craft and your expertise to how it's structured, how it was proposed, to the storyline, to talking me off the ledge when I needed to, to finding the humor in it. But what a joy to get to do this together. So thank you.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, thank you so much, also, the first listener to figure out which story in that book is my story.

Speaker 1:

Gets us some kind of prize.

Speaker 2:

I don't know what the prize is yet, but we'll figure it out. Something Taylor Swift related, maybe? Yeah, although Taylor Swift collectible items are hot man. I don't know. Even Taylor Swift needed help with her book, as it turns out. What's her hot?

Speaker 1:

Yes, yes, she has yet to discover you. How's that?

Speaker 2:

That's true. Yeah, that's true. Actually, one of my favorite agents, who you know you don't work with him directly, but you do know him he and I have decided that's like our ultimate project, so we'll see I love it.

Speaker 1:

It's in the universe, it is. You heard it first on this podcast.

Speaker 2:

I just keep talking about it, okay. Anyway, thank you so much, elaine. I know that this is going to help so many people shed light on this process and help people under better understand. Um, you know how publishing works, which is the whole point of this podcast, so I appreciate you, I thank you and, uh, you should check out her book unlearning silence. It is available everywhere books are sold, but especially at your independent bookstores and bookshoporg, which helps directly support independent bookstores. So check that, that out and we'll see you next time. Thanks for tuning into the kind of big book deal podcast. Want to see where you're at on your book journey. Check out my free quiz at meganstevensoncom forward slash quiz. That's M E G H A N S T E V E N S O Ncom forward slash quiz. See you next time.