Kind Of A Big Book Deal

Episode 13: Financial Freedom, Podcast Growth, and Publishing Power Plays with Jamila Souffrant

• Meghan Stevenson

Share episode

What if your “impossible” dream isn’t so impossible after all?

In this powerful episode, publishing strategist Meghan Stevenson sits down with Jamila Souffrant, host of Journey to Launch and author of Your Journey to Financial Freedom, to unpack how Jamila turned a personal blog into a multiple six-figure book deal. Jamila shares how she started from scratch, built a loyal podcast audience, and stayed rooted in her financial values while navigating traditional publishing. From overcoming imposter syndrome to deciding whether to write a book proposal herself, she reveals the exact mindset, strategy, and support that helped her succeed.

This episode is a must-listen if you’ve ever wondered how to package your message, land a major publishing deal, or stay grounded when the pressure hits. You’ll hear honest insights on growth, vulnerability, and building your own version of a “guac level” lifestyle, on your terms.

Whether you’re starting at zero or already growing your platform, this conversation will leave you both inspired and equipped.

Jamila Souffrant is the author of Your Journey To Financial Freedom: A Step-by-Step Guide to Achieving Wealth and Happiness and the host of the Journey To Launch podcast. She is a go-to thought leader in the personal finance field and her work has been featured in BuzzFeed, ESSENCE, Refinery 29, Money Magazine, CNBC, CBS, Business Insider and more. The Journey To Launch Podcast has over 4+ million total downloads and was listed by the NYTimes as a podcast to help you get better with your money. Jamila and her husband saved $169,000 in two years and is also a mother of three young children and lives in Brooklyn, NY. 

Find her at:
Website: www.journeytolaunch.com
Instagram: www.instagram.com/journeytolaunch/
Facebook: www.facebook.com/journeytolaunch/
X: x.com/journeytolaunch/
TikTok: www.tiktok.com/@journeytolaunch
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/jamilasouffrant/ 

Her book is available at yourjourneytofinancialfreedom.com/ 
The Journey to Launch podcast is available on Apple Podcasts at itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/journey-to-launch-personal-finance-early-retirement/id1257126028?mt=2 

Episode Highlights:
(0:00) Intro
(1:32) Jamila’s Journey: From Blog to Book
(2:51) Why She Started Journey to Launch
(6:43) Slow Growth and True Com


Follow Meghan:

  • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megstevenson
  • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/megstevenson
  • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meghanstevenson/
  • TikTok: @meghan.stevenson.books
  • Website: https://www.meghanstevenson.com/


Have a great idea for a book but don't know where to start?MeghanStevenson.com/quiz


Traditional publishing expert Meghan Stevenson blasts open the gates of the “Big 5” – Penguin Random House, Simon & Schuster, HarperCollins, Hachette, and Macmillan – to share what every entrepreneur and expert needs to know about landing a book deal.

In episodes released every other Monday, Meghan shares wisdom and stories from 20+ years in publishing as well as interviews with authors, literary agents, and editors. She also answers questions from listeners like you.

Whether you are an experienced entrepreneur with an empire, or are just starting out – this podcast will help you understand what you need to do in order to turn your dream of being a bestselling author into real life.

Speaker 1:

So what about your idea is? Is it a million dollar idea? Is it a $400,000 idea? Is it, you know, not necessarily the bone of it, but how you package it and how you can say it in a way to make someone pay attention that normally wouldn't. So all those things it's a lot of like components in your recipe, like can you do that in a way that creates, like this guac lifestyle for yourself, a guac publishing level deal that you feel good in taking?

Speaker 2:

Welcome to the kind of a big book deal podcast where entrepreneurs come to learn about traditional publishing. I'm your host, Meghan Stevenson. After working as an editor for two of the biggest traditional publishers, I started my own business helping entrepreneurs become authors. To date, my clients have earned over $5 million from publishers like Penguin, random House, simon Schuster and HarperCollins. In these podcast episodes, I blast open the well-kept gates to traditional publishing. I'll explain what every entrepreneur needs to know about landing a book deal without losing your mind. I'm going to share stories, answer your questions, interview the successful authors I've worked with and probably save platform more than a tech bro. So if you dream of landing on a bestseller list but have no idea how, this is the podcast for you, and I am so, so glad you're here. Yay, okay, y'all, I have a treat for you today. So I am so pleased to have my friend and client, Jamila Sufrant on the pod today.

Speaker 2:

Jamila is the amazing podcast host of a wonderful show called Journey to Launch. This is all about reaching financial independence in a sustainable, all about reaching financial independence in a sustainable, enjoyable way, which is like, totally like. For me personally is like one of the things I love, and so her book. I'm going to show it off for you on YouTube. Your Journey to Financial Freedom came out way back in 2023. I cannot like this. Jamila goes way back, like I feel like we were working together in like oh 21 or something. I was like three apartments apartments ago it was before I bought my house, all this stuff, um and so I'm just so excited to have you here and I'm so excited for all my listeners to learn from you.

Speaker 1:

So welcome, Jamila thanks so much for having me, Meghan okay.

Speaker 2:

So I want to talk about this podcast so you might recognize Jamila if you're like on youtube watching this and if you're listening, you like I don't know who this is, whatever, check out Jamila. You might recognize her from the Today Show because I feel like I turn it on and she's on there like every time I turn on the Today Show because I don't watch it that often. But you've been on the Today Show multiple times. You're a media darling. But I want to go way back to where this book began, because it was like 10 years ago and in a blog. So can you share how you got started, like where this all began?

Speaker 1:

yes, okay, so it's so funny because I recorded an episode for my podcast, journey to launch, where I went back to my earlier blog and read that, uh, to kind of show what happened eight years later. But yeah, I started journey Launch. It was first just a blog and it was called Mrs Budget Fab, so it was a totally different name and I just can't picture you as that, but it's also like 2016.

Speaker 2:

So let's be real, that was the very 2016 vibe.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so and so at that point I was listening to podcasts and blogs about financial independence, or reading blogs around this concept of the FIRE movement, and I said to myself, you know, let me start a platform of my own, not so that I can one day get a book deal or one day quit my job, but I thought I'm being so inspired by these platforms and I feel like I'd be more accountable to my own journey to reach my goals if I started my own thing. So that's why I started the blog A year later, started the podcast, because I realized, you know, it was easier for me to talk than write the blog every week, and so started the podcast in 2017. And, you know, it was really a great timing for me starting the podcast. I think, like I, just a lot of luck. I like to say, you know, it's a lot of luck for me starting the podcast.

Speaker 1:

I think, like I, just a lot of luck. I like to say, you know, it's a lot of luck, a lot of work. But at that point, because I was listening to so many podcasts on my commute from Brooklyn to New Jersey and I knew what was kind of missing in the space, I knew what I wanted to hear more of. So I said you know, why don't I just start my own thing? And did that and really started at a time where I think the message and a voice like mine was needed in the space. So it was really a great time for me to get started at that point.

Speaker 2:

And FIRE. Just in case for listeners that don't know, it's the Financial Independence Retire Early Movement. When I was doing self-published books and working with hybrid published authors, I got into the FIRE community and they were a great client base for me. But they're really frugal and that is not something that you espouse, which I love, because I have a lot of problem with frugal financial people. I'm just not that.

Speaker 1:

That's just not my vibe at all. I think the beauty of since when I started to now, the movement itself has broadened. It know, like it's so many types of fire, like fat fire, uh, or, you know, barista fire, all these, all these terminologies, but really it's you can. It's not everyone is as frugal, but there are definitely sub segments of a lot of frugality and that's how I started.

Speaker 1:

You know, this is why I called the blog Mrs Budget Fab, because you know, quite frankly, I call the blog Mrs Budget Fab because you know, quite frankly, to make the change someone wants to see, which is, I know that you have a lot of like entrepreneurs and people like watching where you know maybe they'll like get to the book part, get to you know how to publish a book. But I think, in terms of the FIRE like movement, what, how it helped me and how I want to help people who are entrepreneurs also, is you don't want to be beholden to like not understanding how your income and expenses work together, like you want to have freedom even from like writing books if one day you want to do that. And so understanding that and how to pull those levers of whether it was frugality or earning more and how to use it to quit my job was really what inspired me to like continue to talk about the podcast or to talk about these topics, and then eventually get me to where I am today with all the things.

Speaker 2:

I love that. So with your podcast, because a lot of people listening to this need to grow their audience and it can feel so Sisyphean and intimidating to go from zero Like you. Just look at people like yourself and you think how does she end up number one in her category as an Apple podcast? How does she end up on the Today Show? I could never do that right. How do I get to 100,000 followers from zero is what I hear a lot. So how did that? How did your audience grow? Was it like very slowly? Was it painfully? Was it like, oh, I did this one thing and I had a huge jump Like how did that go?

Speaker 1:

Slowly and it's still pretty slow, you know. I know people can look from the outward at my success and charts and all this stuff and getting all the media attention. But when I started in 2017, the podcast, I didn't have like tons of followers. It wasn't that, you know. I really honed in on sharing my story but being helpful for other people and I remember starting the like a small Facebook group and really it was like a couple of people listening to the podcast and a couple of people in the Facebook group and I just like catered to them and to myself about what I wanted to put out and it was word of mouth mostly and just continuing to be consistent and so that over time helped grow. It was like a snowball effect, I think, consistently putting out content.

Speaker 1:

I think the timing was great, not that you can't be successful starting a podcast now, but I think starting it so far ago, when things were kind of, you know, starting out for the fire movement in terms of getting a lot of publicity, was helpful.

Speaker 1:

But I still feel like you can start it any podcast on any topic today, because there are so many things I want to currently listen to that I cannot find and it could be a discover like trying to just discover it issue, but there's so many topics from a voice that I know is out there that I'm like if they had a podcast for this I'd be listening.

Speaker 1:

I need someone to do it. So there is like a lane to open up. But it was a slow growth and it was really primarily focused on what I had, so it wasn't trying to skip ahead. To do and to connect work with the people who were so far ahead and above me was like who are the current newbies in the space? Were the other podcasts that are just starting out, the people I can connect to? And that was what was really helpful and consistency over time and eventually growing it and even with media and like features myself going on other podcasts like I started small and media was small and I think what happened is it just media begetted more media getting on.

Speaker 2:

One podcast helped my name get discovered when someone Googled just personal finance expert and it just started to snowball from there say is like figure out what you're going to be known for, right, that niche is really important when it comes to your book and when it comes to business, because if you're just a business coach, there are tons of business coaches out there, right? If you're just a mindset coach, there are tons of mindset coaches out there. But, like for you, not only were you talking about financial independence, but you were doing it in this way that FIRE community was not, you were filling a hole.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and you know, I think vulnerability and sharing my story helped a lot. I think, honestly, that still works today and I don't do it as much. You know I share my journey still, but I definitely shared, I think, a bit more of it and that uncertainty was appealing to people because they also were on the journey. They still are on the journey and I do think, like people love seeing like the real you and all parts of it.

Speaker 1:

So I do think depends on your strategy of like how you want to establish yourself right, I know some experts want to be experts and look like they have it all figured out and perhaps that works in certain aspects. But even when I see the like new people coming into the space or people who do have success and it seems like fast like new people coming into the space or people who do have success and it seems like fast it's usually because they are you know, you like them when they're on the screen. You are connected to their story, not just like the advice they're giving, but like who they are as a person. So I think if you lead with that and just show up as your true self, that will help tremendously when finding your people who will then eventually buy from you or buy your book.

Speaker 2:

Exactly, yeah, I love that. Okay, so in your book you mentioned and I love this. So I reread your introduction because I was like you know, we've worked on the proposal. I did not write this book with you, so I hadn't. I knew all the concepts very familiar right to me, but I was like, let me read the introduction, let me read the first chapter yesterday to get myself refreshed. And in that you mentioned that asking readers to pursue financial independence by doing that, you are actually asking them to do something other people are going to tell them is impossible, that is going to tell them is out of reach. And a book deal often feels so much the same way, right, because people don't understand publishing. It seems like this mystical thing is kind of like how you become a film director or how you become Taylor Swift, right, like it just seems mythical. So like when did you first start thinking about writing a book?

Speaker 1:

You know I've always been a writer. I think as a child I wrote a lot, I read a lot. I just unfortunately don't do it as much now. That's the same old, you know tale of being busy. But that was always in me and I knew once the podcast you know it was doing well and I knew that I wanted to have another like medium, another forum or vertical of how I would get my information out there. And I knew the book was the next step.

Speaker 1:

I had been approached previously by smaller independent publishers. Sometimes they already have the concept. They wanted a firebook. They were just looking for an author or just opportunities that came about writing a book, and at those moments I was like God, it doesn't feel right yet. And then I got another email about writing a book and I, and at those moments I was like God doesn't feel right yet. And then I, you know I got another email about writing a book and I said you know like I think it might be time to really explore what this could look like.

Speaker 1:

I immerse myself in that world and try to figure out all the possibilities and I'm excited about it. I know that can feel overwhelming, but when I realized that maybe a book is something I want to do. I dug my heels in and tried to figure out OK, what are the different options of publishing a book or writing a book. Do I do it myself or do I try to get a big book deal and really spent some time in that world and we can talk about it because it's funny, I had, I did one of these. It wasn't a reading or anything, it was. I forgot the name of this. It was a while ago.

Speaker 1:

And the person I had said you know, I have a goal of writing a book, but I don't want to write the proposal. Like, I want to write the book but I don't want to write the proposal. And they were like, why don't you just have someone else write it? And I was like, no, like I have to do everything myself. What do you mean? Someone else write it or work with someone else? Like this, I have to get it from the ground, from the mud, by myself, every single thing.

Speaker 1:

And that person just saying that opened up a possibility that I didn't even want to look into, which helped me then research what does it look like to have and work with someone on a book proposal? Which led me down all these pathways that you know, eventually, eventually led me to you. But I really just I kept getting the nudges that people wanted a book from me, like whether it was publishers or readers or listeners, and then I said let me go figure out the best path and what I want to do, the route I want to take and then how I can get that done.

Speaker 2:

I love that. If everybody could do that, that would be great. But honestly, those pings from smaller publishers for people that are listening, a lot of people think that's the only chance they're going to get and it's like you can say no to those people. You can say not now to those people. Someone from a big house Penguin, random House, simon and schuster I used to do it all the time it's called spearfishing go out and you like, look for authors for projects or you. You just see somebody. I I hounded this writer for the village voice when I was at simon and schuster. Like I just hounded him for like three years. He ended up getting a book deal later with someone else but but I was just like we became friends all of that and that's something they do and you can always say no or not now to those people.

Speaker 1:

Well, the interesting thing and maybe we'll get into how I got my book deal and went to auction but one of my last emails that I did get that made me. I think we were maybe working on the proposal already or maybe not. I think we didn't start yet, but I got an email from a publisher about hey, do you want to write a book? Someone who works in our publishing house listens to your podcast and I was like, well, you know not yet. Well, I'm working on something.

Speaker 1:

And I think that's when I started to work on the proposal or figured out you know what I want to do this Come to find out that same publisher that reached out like they ended up going through the publishing process in terms of bidding on my book and came out the winner.

Speaker 1:

So not only did they initially want my book first, but I told them, you know, I actually want to go through the steps they bid. I had like 10, 11 people or publishers bidding on the book. They came in at the highest and they were the one I felt like really wanted the book because they reached out beforehand. And so I always think of that like if I would have just went with them, you know I definitely wouldn't have gotten anywhere close, I think, to what I would have got without an agent. But the fact that I was able to say, hey, you know I'm working on this, I'll add you on the list of you know, publishers we reach out to when we're ready was definitely helpful and changed everything versus just saying yes when they first came to me first came to me.

Speaker 2:

And isn't that such a different approach and such a different vibe and such a different energy? When, like, they come to you and you think, oh, this is. You're coming from scarcity and you're thinking, oh, this is the only chance I'm going to get. I better take what they offer versus hold. I'm doing my own research. I might come back thanks to your interest. And then they're so interested right.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, like that totally is a, it came from more of a place for me, from a power position and knowing that if they want it, there are other people that also want it. So don't, it's okay, like you, can you go back to them and they were and they and they knew it was business. So they worked with me anyway and yeah, it just worked out really well.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and anyone who's going to get mad that you walked away from the initial like offer isn't someone you want to work with anyway, frankly. Okay. So I remember and sometimes my memory is faulty, so if you don't remember it differently, tell me but I remember I approached you when we were in a business coaching group together and I was like want to write a book, want to write a book, and I just kept bugging you in your DMs, like I remember being on calls and like sending you those like private DM messages that you can do in Zoom and all of that. What was your like initial reaction to that? Because I'm always just curious.

Speaker 1:

So this is where I talk about this in the book. You know, I know I talk about finances and all this stuff, but I think life is a series of occurrences and luck and wonder and magic and God and whatever you believe in that leads you to make the decisions you make. Everything, I believe, happens for a reason. And so probably by the time we spoke, that nudge of that person telling me why don't you have someone else write it, where maybe a year you reaching out to me before that would have been like no, I'm going to do this myself. I got to do it myself.

Speaker 1:

That opened up a world where wait, this is a thing People do. Help you write proposals. Why do it yourself if there's someone who knows how to do it better and there's a pathway to getting the deal you want? And so I think, probably by the time we started talking to getting the deal you want, and so I think, probably by the time we started talking, I was open to the idea of it and I also realized you know, I did my research I understood the type of book deal I wanted. Again, people are going to tell you, just like with the fire and like retiring early, like for most people it's going to seem ridiculous because they can't envision themselves doing it Right. But I knew I wanted a very good, a significant book deal. I wanted, like a great, like book deal, multiple six figures.

Speaker 2:

And you got one you got one.

Speaker 1:

And so, again, I know that for some people if, like I, were to tell someone who's already written a book or who was in the world what I wanted to do, they'd have been like, girl, that's like impossible. But I said, you know what I feel like I can do this. I have research that shows there are people who have done it, who have gone the path that I'm looking to go, and let me do the math right, like, so if I got to pay or do this and invest upfront to get the outcome that I want, what's the possibilities and probabilities of that, then I'm going to. I took the risk. And so for me it was all of those things Like it's almost like going to.

Speaker 1:

When I talking about going to college, like if you have a kid, I have kids and let's just say my kid wanted to be a teacher and I love teachers, my husband is a teacher, I, you know, I would not say that they should go to a private university and rack up six figures of multiple debt to do that. I would try to say, okay, you want to be a teacher? I'm thinking about how much you're going to make. Let's look at some affordable options for you. But because I knew my goal was multiple six figures, then I knew the investment that I wanted to put into it made sense to get there. Versus if I didn't think that I could get to six, multiple six figures, I would have been maybe went about working with you or not working with you differently, cause you know. So I figured, I figured out what my end goal, what I wanted that to be.

Speaker 2:

I made sure that it was probable and that I could do it, and then I kind of worked backwards on if the investment I wanted to put into it and that's really good too, because it makes sense also that sometimes we get pushback on our pricing because our pricing is a little high compared to the other people in our space, but we also get better results than everybody else. It's like well, what are you trying to go for? Because a lot of people are just going for a deal, and then a deal could be $15, could be 30 000, it could be 100 000, versus my floor being like, hmm, I don't really think of 100 000 as 100 000. I really think six figures starts at like 150 175 now these days.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so like I'm just like no, we're always going for that level and above um, and so like our fees respect that because we're we're. We know you're taking a risk working on proposal with us with the. You know the intention that we're going to get you a deal and you're not going to be out that money. But at the same point, like when you work with us on the whole thing, so like manuscript and proposal, like you're going to end up spending less than your advance and that's kind of the point. So like I completely love that you approach that with that in mind and a lot of our entrepreneurs do. They're like it's like investing in this is simplistic, but investing in like a Facebook ad campaign right, you want to get a return on ad spend. You want to get a return on proposal spend.

Speaker 1:

Right and I, you know it's going to be different for everyone. You know, perhaps if, like this, was me having to make the decision now, based on the market and how things are and what's recently happened, maybe my choices would be different. You know, like even my platform, knowing what I know now, like I did really luck up in the time that I got my book deal, like I don't know that I would, if this happened today, that I would have gotten the same thing. But yeah, I think it's all going to be just an individual journey, just like your financial journey on what, what is the current, like what, what? What's working for you, what do you need to work on? What's your probability of getting to that place? You want to go and realizing that it might not happen.

Speaker 1:

And so I was okay, and you know I was okay and you know, I don't know, I don't know if this is something you want to keep in or cut out, but I feel like, um, you know, perhaps maybe your pricing structure may have or may not have changed, like since we work together. I don't know, but I feel like I was willing for the amount um fee that I paid, and I think it was just a fixed upfront fee with you, yep, if nothing happened, like let's just say we did all this work and I did not get a deal, I was okay with like having that money leave me and not seeing a return. So I think that's the biggest thing too, is like when you take these kind of risks, it's like of course you want the results, but it's not like I bet, like the mortgage and like we wouldn't be able to like live. You know it was like okay, this is obviously something I'm investing in, a sizable investment, but if it doesn't come true or to fruition, it's not going to leave us in the cold and like not being able to pay our bills. So I had to be very smart, whether it was with the business finances and overall finances, to make sure it was a deal that or it was a situation that, no matter what, I would be okay.

Speaker 2:

And I think that's really important too, right, because, again, looking at the energy of it, you want to make sure that you have like you know, spiritual teachers call it like detaching from the outcome. You want to like let the universe do what it does. And it's so interesting in that the clients we've had who haven't gotten a deal, you know they have all the feelings, obviously, but then at a certain point they're like, oh, it wasn't meant to happen for me right now, or it wasn't meant to happen in this way, and they very much have a piece around it which sometimes potential authors can't even imagine. That, right? But the authors that we're working with are like, hey, we did all this work, I'm proud of what we did. If somebody else didn't say yes to it, that's on them, it's not on me, right? So let's talk about the proposal process, because I think it's really interesting. So what surprised you about that process?

Speaker 1:

I actually started working with someone else on your team when we initially worked together, which was again something I had to get comfortable with, because this is the thing when you're a business owner, everyone wants to work with the owner, the expert, like, even though you know, like you are, you are hiring people that are just as capable. So I was working with someone else for a while, for you know, I don't know how long it was and they were great. I thought they were fine, like they weren't. I didn't, you know, I didn't didn't feel like I was lacking in terms of what they were doing, but I I think that something happened and they would no longer were working with you, and then you had to step in and take over, which was fine by me, cause I'm like, yes, like let's get it done with Meghan then, and I think you like completed the.

Speaker 1:

I think I was working with that person for a few months, like almost eight months, I don't know. It was a little bit of time and I think you and I started to work together and it was fast. I feel like we got the proposal done or you got it done in a good amount of time. I think we had done a lot of work with that person and you took that, but you also reworked it and did your magic and we were able to really get things going really fast um, which was nice um at the time because it accelerated the timeline of getting things done.

Speaker 1:

But overall I felt this was exactly why I wanted to work with someone, because I think there were pros and cons, like to whether you write the proposal completely yourself or you work with someone. Part of me feels like I got to get the anxiety or just like the workload of trying to figure out all my ideas by myself and put it in a format that would make sense to someone else. Like I got that professional help from you know, you guys, you to do that, and so it helps save a lot of stress or just time. Like I wasn't up, like I wanted to spend that energy when I was writing the book, like you know, writing for hours and hours. I didn't want to do that with a proposal, but I think that was the most beneficial like not like having almost a partner and someone else doing the heavy lift in helping me get my ideas out and into a way that made sense for agents to see and then eventually publishers and into a way that made sense for agents to see and then eventually, publishers.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, the proposal is so interesting. So, the way we do it now because, again, we worked with Jamila in like 2021. We're recording this in the spring of 2025. Like, we still kind of do the same thing honestly which is that we have collaborators on the team and their whole job is because I'm hosting podcasts, I'm writing marketing emails, I'm doing financial reporting, I'm doing management stuff, I'm doing ops. It's a meeting with new clients, talking with authors, all the things. We have collaborators on our team. Most of them are former editors, publishing professionals, and they come in and they know sort of what a proposal is already, and so they do the hard work. And there is a lot of hard work at the proposal stage because we're creating the structure, we're creating the positioning, we're creating the comps, we're creating the market analysis, all these things, and so the collaborators really own the editorial. And so, with that particular collaborator that we had, she hadn't collaborated before, she had come up more on the marketing side, and so it just was. You know, it's like one of those things.

Speaker 2:

Publishing's not this unique industry where, like, the HR problems of the world do not come and show up in our house too. They do. People leave, people get fired, people all sorts of shit happens, and so that's just what happened there. But the awesome thing for my clients is that I'm always going to fucking pick that shit up. So, like with you you she had dallied and dollied and dallied, and I've given her a little. I learned a lot as a manager. In that moment. I had given her too much rope, I was being too nice, and so when I swooped in with you, I was like janiel is too important, I got to get this done on time. I'm not going to ask her for a contract extension, I'm just going to sit here and get this done, and so that's what I did right like, and that's what you do I

Speaker 2:

mean, we had someone get a dream job and is in the process of leaving our team right now and it's like, okay, we're going to do everything we can to make sure that their clients feel like we're not abandoning them. And that happens in-house as well. You know editors switch jobs, houses change. You know your publisher went through a weird transitional moment while your book was being published. There's just things that happen, and so our industry is not unique. That happens to us too.

Speaker 2:

But for me, it's really important to have clients feel held, and we're the experts in book structure. So that's the biggest thing that I see in author-written proposals is that they don't really understand how books work and what you need to do to productize your ideas. Because like you had so many ideas and so many amazing frameworks, but like they had to be parsed out, right, yeah, so like it had to be parsed out and spaced out and explained and like I don't know, there's just a lot there to handle. So yeah, with your proposal process, it was very interesting because I gave it to somebody else and was like, oh, she's fucking this up. I got to take it back and then figure it out really quickly, but it was still fun and I was glad that it worked out, because what I do when I get that sort of situation, I'm even a bigger champion for making the outcome that clients want, because I feel not bad necessarily, but integrity is really important to me, so I want to deliver what we promised you, regardless of whatever Was happening on the team.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, no, I'm, you know, super glad that it actually did work out that way, because I think that was part of the reason we were able to go as far and get such a good book deal.

Speaker 1:

For me, because of, like, what you were able to produce and, like you said, like there's things that I just don't know, you know, like I don't, I haven't. I believe in hiring like experts who actually know what they're doing and can provide real results and have a track record. So I think why would I stress myself out, which is what I was afraid of, you know, which is why I was delaying, probably kind of getting a book out which, in actuality, it was all in perfect timing. But I don't know any of this, and so like to have my own research, but then know someone else is on it and knows how to market this concept that I have in a way that an agent is going to be like huh versus the way I would have did it, and then you know the agent then knows how to move on to the publisher and make the publisher go like all that to me, was worth it, um, in terms of paying people to do these things and for their expertise yes, so let's talk about landing your deal.

Speaker 2:

So you went to auction, so explain sort of that process for yourself auction, so explain sort of that process for yourself.

Speaker 1:

Oh my gosh, that was really fun, yeah. So I immersed myself in learning about the different ways that books get published and really decided I wanted to go get a book deal, which is why I worked with you and then got agents. But I think it was a great time because, from what I understand, back in the day, when you had publisher meetings, you had to like it was in person, right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, they used to do in person, yeah Right.

Speaker 1:

And so this was all like even I met my agents virtually and then I met all the publishers that wanted to work with me, or even those initial meetings were all virtual. So I felt like those were like kind of fun. I remember doing it and the kids being home, whether they were sick or something was going on, and I had maybe like 12. So I got landed great agents but then also landed maybe like I think, 12 meetings with publishers virtually, and so there was like a time period of two weeks that I was having meetings like every day where the publisher wanted to get to know more about me and the concept, and so I actually enjoyed those meetings.

Speaker 1:

And when it came down to now, I guess, people showing interest, or that point where my agents are asking publishers, hey, send in your best offers, that was exciting. I remember that evening and kind of waiting to hear back for what was coming in and like what the possibilities were. And then things going from first was it the initial round to the next round, to the final round, like that was fun and so like I think it worked out really well and I I think I forgot not because what's it called. They have these catchphrases or terms for the type of or the amount of money you get for a book deal. I think one is like a very good, a good deal.

Speaker 1:

Very good Right Significant.

Speaker 2:

Hold on, I'll go find it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, find them Because at one point I knew these by heart, but it's been a little bit of time. But I think anyone should know this. If you're looking to publish a book traditionally, these are terms you should know.

Speaker 2:

Yeah okay, so these are the types of deals as defined by Publishers Marketplace. So up to $49,000, which is we don't get out of bed for that, but that's considered a nice deal. $50,000 to $90,000 is a very nice deal. Again, once in a while we'll hit this. We actually got a couple of deals in that range at the beginning of last year because publishing was in a like oh shit, inflation is happening moment. So then a good deal, which is my floor, is a hundred to 250,000. And then where you got was a significant book deal, which is 251,000 to 499,000. And then a major deal, or what I call Obama money, is 500 K or more. Actually I call Obama money a million or more, which I've only gotten once in my life, but 500 K or up, it's considered a major deal. And then I call Obama money, money, anything more than a million right.

Speaker 1:

So my goal in doing all of this, like even from the beginning and I knew this, so even from when working with you, I knew these terms, I knew what was possible I think, um, I had set out for I said significant, like I need to get at least significant, I think I could do. Major, I thought was like a little bit much. I wasn't like my brand wasn't that huge, but I thought, okay, I could think I could get a significant. And so when the bid started coming back, like they were in that range, like I ended up getting a at the high end of a significant deal which even to this day, I'm like you gave me all that money.

Speaker 2:

It's a lot of money, yeah, right, but I mean again, all the stars aligned and for it to work that way yes, and the success of you and a few other clients led us to add a little kickback clause when we get over 250k. It didn't apply to you, but it definitely applied to people in the future because after I got that that Obama money deal for someone I was like I should get rewarded when my clients make a lot of money.

Speaker 1:

Wait, I do want to go back, because I think, for me, the fact that the person or the publishing house that came in the highest and that I felt really, you know, connected to the mission of the book, was the one that came to me before I even had an agent, and so I also felt like that was saying something. I mean, they made it easy because they also came in at the highest. It's not like they came in second to highest and I had to make that decision, you know, but it was like this is this was meant to be like. So I thought that was really interesting, that how that came around. And, like I said before, when they first reached out, there was no talk about money, so I had no clue what they would have offered me, but I highly doubt that they would have offered as high as they did, unless it was because they saw the other people, all the other people who wanted it. So that was-.

Speaker 2:

Exactly so for reader's perspective, and we'll have an agent. Come on, probably have your agent come on to be real, but literary agent, come on and talk about this more. But essentially, like when you get into these multiple bids and that's what we call it when people want to buy the book, when the publishers want to buy the book, we call it bids. So it's very similar to a housing market where if you get a hot, cute house in a great neighborhood, people are going to bid on that and run it up. Right, the very house I'm sitting in. We paid a hundred thousand dollars over the listing price because we wanted it right. So, same idea and everything human about an auction like even whether it's a cattle auction or a book auction or antiques roadshow that runs up because people get hot, they get, you know, you get in a hot state mentally and people just go a little crazy. And so that's what happened.

Speaker 2:

And you also benefited from this big push where, like I think, you got your deal in 2021, right At the end of 2021? Yes, so, like in 2021 in particular, what had happened is because the publishing world was taken by surprise by COVID. What happened was they didn't make as many deals during COVID time, because they were adjusting to remote work and like the money was really weird and like just everything was kind of off, even though it was a great year for books. Like there was a huge push in book sales during the pandemic. During the pandemic and then 2021, there's a little thing called inventory within the houses which is like, basically, how many books do they have lined up for the future years? Because we're working about a year or two ahead at any given point.

Speaker 2:

So they looked in 2021 and thought, oh no, we didn't buy in 2020. So we don't have anything for 22 and 23. So they just started throwing money at stuff, and not that your advance was higher than it should have been. I think it was probably right. In the night you didn't really have the inflationary thing, but a few of my projects, like me and the agents would be like this project would have been like half the price two years ago, right, and like that's really interesting. And it's because they were all short. They were all trying to buy up its supply and demand, right, basic economics. But like it was really interesting. And so then, in 23, we saw that big contraction.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Cause.

Speaker 1:

That's what you know see, I mean, I mean some of that stuff I didn't even, you know, I didn't know that part about like the inventory being low, so they probably had a budget. I feel like things like I learned like kind of going in maybe this was from my agents that I learned like going in at the end of the year was good because you know people have unused budgets and so they're like, oh, we can also give you more money for that. So, yeah, a lot of things just really worked out. And also I think it was on the heels of like Tiffany the budgetista, like her book did so well when it came out. You know, finance, about personal finance, I mean she's amazing with her platform and how much, how she's able to sell. So coming from the heels of that, I think was helpful for me, like to, you know, be a Black woman in this space, and so there was just like a lot of things working in my favor in 20 there was a lot to get that deal.

Speaker 2:

There were so many things working in your favor and that was really about timing and you can't like kind of try to time that. It's kind of like trying to time the market it doesn't quite work, stock market, but like there's certain sort of cadences. So like we tried to submit a personal finance book about six months ago and everyone was like she's great, but there's it's too crowded because of Tiffany, because of you, because of Vivian too, another client of ours, all these books by women came out, um, tori Dunlap, all these books. And so it was just like, okay, well, this author, you know she could choose to go hybrid publish or do something else, or she could just wait a couple of years, let her platform grow, try again, right, cause that's another strategy you can always do. And so let's talk about writing your book. Were there any like surprises or a word like personal moments of like? Ah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

So learning from hiring and working with you and paying for experts to help you do things I did hire, so did the research to understand what it takes to write a book and realize like it's not easy and you don't even know what it is until you're doing it. Just I think like parenthood like you could tell as many how it is to be a parent until you're actually in the thick of it Like no one can tell you what that feels like. So I knew that it was going to take a lot of work and energy. I knew from my research that as much as you like the publishing house and they like you, that they like some are you can luck out and get someone who's really hands-on or not. And so I kind of knew because the head of my imprint was also my lead editor and I was like I don't feel like there's any way that he's going to be able to be as hands-on as I need him to be, because he's like the leader of the whole imprint how is he going to edit the way that I need him to edit? And this is my first book and like I just needed a lot of handholding. So I feel like knowing that I did hire a separate like editor outside, like with my own money, to help me, like it was.

Speaker 1:

She was like a coach and editor with the process, which was so helpful because I think I'd have been lost in the sauce without like any help and doing it on my own, especially be just my publisher as much as like. They were great. They were not as hands-on during the writing process. I felt like they were just like go ahead and write it and just give me what you have and I'm like what am I going to? I don't know. And so it was helpful to have someone else like you know coaching me through, like hey, here's like, sit down, you know, get your ideas out. Here's how to maybe look at this differently. So that was super helpful. But the writing process you know, I committed to it, I had the help with the coach and she also edited it also, which was helpful for me. It was hard but it was bearable, like we got through it.

Speaker 2:

Yes, and that's something that's really important too, because, like it's not just the proposal, like some of our clients will go and write it on their own after we're done. Famously, one person showed up after her due date and was like I haven't written anything, can you help me now? And that was like oh shit, okay, yes, but also like what are we going to do? Right, and so, yeah, and I'm glad you, you know, we had a very like honest conversation when you got your deal about how you wanted to have another black woman to help you write it. And obviously I am not a black woman, and so that was like something where I was like, yes, please go, like I get that. That makes total sense to me, and we always just want what's best for our clients, because sometimes, like, we're the perfect people for your proposal and we're not the perfect people for your manuscript, and that's totally fine. Sometimes we take over for other writers on manuscript or their agent sells it on a page or an idea or an Instagram.

Speaker 2:

Like yeah, you can sell books on very little.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, no, I think, knowing what I know now, if I were to write another book and actually this, I don't know when this episode is going to air, but the paperback is going to come out. They say January 2026. So I'm like quickly going through it and like kind of updating any errors that are there. But, like other projects, like it's totally to me worth it to invest in that additional help If you feel like you can't do it alone. Like there are some people who I know they're like I'm just going to do it myself, which is fine. I just I like help, I like I like guidance, cause otherwise I'll just be all over the place.

Speaker 2:

Yes, that, and I think it's the accountability there, it's the help and it's the space, because a lot of our entrepreneurs and experts they don't have the space that you need to write a book. There's a reason that even me, for our full-time collaborators, they're only working on four books at a time and we work about 30 hours a week and that's a little dicey sometimes. Sometimes they have to work on a full 40, 40 or full 50 hours to get it done, because it's a lot of work. It is a lot of lift.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so I'm going to talk about post publication. So every time I open instagram, I see you sharing a picture of your book in an airport, and that is like everybody's dream, right. When I talk to people, they're like they used to say oprah, right, or maybe ellen, when ellen was on, and now that those kind of have like gone away, they always say I want my book in the airport. Did you see it for the first time? Did one of your followers send it to you the first time? What happened the first time that you found out your book was at a store or an airport.

Speaker 1:

Well, it's funny because someone saw it before the publication date at the Barnes Noble, which I didn't know. There's so many things, so many little things. You just don't know about the industry until you're in it and I was like I didn't know that they could actually put the book for sale like before the sale date. But they had printed so many that I think they just were able to put some out early. So I think there was someone who saw it in a bookstore like the Barnes and Noble, like a week or two before publication.

Speaker 1:

So that that was interesting, that was exciting, and then I forgot the first time that I saw it in a airport, but it was exciting, it's exciting when I see it, it's exciting when my kids see it at the library, at the airport, all these places. I'm just like wow, um. The other day someone sent in one of the chats I'm in they were at a Barnes Noble in the city, I believe, and it was like on display in the front along with a couple other books, like in the front where people pass by the display mirror, and I was like wow, like. So yeah, it never gets old seeing the book and me seeing it or other people sending it to me.

Speaker 2:

So I can explain why your book was out in a bookstore before your pub date. So I can explain why your book was out in a bookstore before your pub date. So when they go and sometime you should go see when you're walking around an independent bookstore the other day I went to mine in my neighborhood here and I was like, oh, they just got their shipments because they were just like a stack of books all with like cachette and simon shuster and harper collins logos on them, because they all got shipped from the warehouse and unless you have what's called a lay down date, so they do that for Prince Harry probably had a lay down date, britney Spears probably had a lay down. Any of these really big books probably have a lay down and what that means is literally you can lay it down in the store on that date, but everybody else is just like at the bookstore store's discretion right, and sometimes you know sometimes they will stick to that and other times they won't.

Speaker 2:

That's also, on the flip side, why you might not see a book within the first week. I remember a book came out, one of my authors hit the USA Today bestseller list and I went over to my indie just to see if they had it. And I was not shocked that they did not have it, for two reasons. Number one my indie has about I don't know, maybe 10 feet of space for any practical nonfiction at all. Right, so like for this person to have a book there is like because it was on entrepreneurship is like kind of not always going to happen anyway. And then the second thing was I was like oh, was like, oh, it's, you know, she just came out this week. They probably have it in a carton somewhere. And that's happened too. When I go and I'm like, hey, you don't have this, can I special order? And they're like oh, it's here, we just haven't unpacked it yet yeah, yeah, post publication.

Speaker 1:

I think the thing about learning about publishing a book is that it's not easy to sell actual books, honestly. Uh. So for me, though I've committed to, like you know, you're always going to see the book. Like I know some people like they publish it and then you never like see them talk about the book again. You don't see a picture and like I just feel like it's just a part of my life now. So you're gonna, it's gonna be in mostly in the background of everything I do, and also there's gonna be a post about it whenever I see it, whenever someone does something and credits the book, like I'm going to post about it. So it's like an ongoing promotional run that never, is probably never going to end, for me at least.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, cause, why would it? I mean, that's the funny thing. I see so many people are like, well, I promoted it for you know a couple of weeks and then the sales have dropped off and I was like, well, no shit, you're not talking about it again. Right, like, you got to talk about it endlessly. It's the same thing, for, like anything you launch as an entrepreneur, especially online, you got to be constantly selling, selling, selling, selling, selling on it. Right, okay, awesome. So I love we're down to our last question.

Speaker 2:

I love to complete these interviews with my client's best advice. So the people who are listening, they want a book deal, they're experts, they're entrepreneurs. What is one lesson or one tip that you would tell them? Like, that you would tell your bestie? I mean, we have an amazing thing in your book called the guac levels. Right Of like, how much? Like? Basically I'm going to do a very random job of just explaining this, but basically Jamila has this great analogy for lifestyle and how you want to live and like, walk level one is fairly frugal, it's very basic, and walk level five is like you have a private chef making you guacamole every day and I'm at walk level four, which means I'll order it whenever I see it and I'm not worried about how much price it is, it's totally my vibe, but anyway. So I'm not worried about how much price, it is Just totally my vibe, but anyway. So I'm thinking about that and like I'm wondering, like how do you feel? Actually I have two questions.

Speaker 1:

How do you feel that guac levels apply to publishing and second, what's your best tip or lesson or advice? Let's see. Okay, guac levels and publishing. You are clearly a guac level five. You were clearly at guac level five. Well yeah, yeah, four or five. You know, five would have been the what's that? The major book deal for me.

Speaker 2:

But like and that's true this year. You were at guac. Well, you were right here with me at guac, level four.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, no, I think so similar to the financial journey, or reaching this audacious goal of financial independence, never having to work again like who doesn't want to do that right, yeah, is that for me to be able to have quit my job like I made really great strides early on in my journey, like we saved and invested a lot of money.

Speaker 1:

I actually had to be frugal in a lot of areas and be a guac level one and two so that I could save up and gain that traction to get to where I am today, right, and now I can kind of spend a little bit more freely, and so it can go back and forth, I think, consistently.

Speaker 1:

I would not have wanted to live guac level one or two like in my life, right, but I had to do that to get to give me a launching pad, right, to kind of give me that extra money so I can quit my job and start the business or continue the business with that in publishing. I would say that you have to find what you truly would be okay with, and so, while my goal was to get a significant book deal, I wanted like multiple six figures, hopefully the higher the better. I, you know, I said I was okay with getting you know, like a single or maybe the lower end of a significant book deal, and I think the one before that was a good deal Like what's the one before, significant like up to like 100 to 250, I think you had, if I would have got a deal like that.

Speaker 1:

It's not like I would have been disappointed in my life or myself, right, like, but I just I stroll, I like I strive and I aim big, but I'm okay. Also if it doesn't land, because I do feel like you have to strive. You don't have to strive, uh, but if you, if it's in your heart and mind and there's this idea for me that I wanted to get out, that I know people would be like, would help them, like I was willing to put in the work and to be paid well for it, so I would say, with the publishing world and what you have as a goal for yourself, I think, look at what's possible. Like it's okay to be a little delusional, I don't mind a little delusion. But also, like, if you have just started, you don't have a platform and now you're like well, I'm going to get like this major book deal or significant book deal in a year you know I think that's not realistic Like, but if you're saying you know what, I have a plan to grow my audience, it's a five year lookout, then it's possible because a lot can happen in three to five years. So I just think, strive for, like, the higher guac level and the higher publishing deal, if you have the components to make it a reality, if you have the drive to like, grow the audience, if you have the consistency and persistency to put out consistent content, if you have the idea right. I don't think there's anything new under the sun. Like everyone in personal finance, it's like the same thing.

Speaker 1:

Okay, it's the way you package it and that's most. That's mostly everything that is a book. That's nonfiction, I should say. So what about your idea is? Is it a million dollar idea? Is it a $400,000 idea? Is it you know, not necessarily the bone of it, but how you package it and how you can say it in a way to make someone pay attention that normally wouldn't. So all those things, it's a lot of like components in your recipe.

Speaker 1:

Like can you do that in a way that creates like this guac lifestyle for yourself or guac publishing level deal that you feel good in taking? And if it doesn't work out, will you be happy for the work and the risk you took for doing it? And for me, if none of this worked out, like I would have spent the money with you. No agent would have wanted it, no publisher I still feel like I would have been happy, I would have been proud of myself because I know that I did the work and I had the ideas and it was. It's just because it's not it's time or it's not ready yet. So that was like a lot of stuff. But I would say, you know, be be real about your timeline, be a little delusional because you got to have that reach for the stars, but you do have to put in the work to get to some of this stuff that you're looking to do. So just be prepared to do that work.

Speaker 2:

Yes, and I think the other thing too is like do you have the desire for that? Because I see a lot of people that want the book, want the advance, want the fancy stuff, but they don't necessarily want to do the hustle, they don't want to sell it, they don't want to build the audience, they don't want to put out a podcast every week, they don't want to write an email every week, they don't want to grow an empire of a business. They like the other things that you need.

Speaker 1:

And so you have to be real with that the where I am now.

Speaker 1:

I am not at this place where I want to like. I of course I'd love more listeners of the podcast, I'd love more money for the business if it works in a way that feels good. But I don't have that desire that I had five years ago when I first started journey to launch and I was like I need to like, get on all the lists and I need to get on this part. I don't have that anymore, and so I think it'd be harder for me to try to go after a deal like this, like with the mindset I have right and the drive that I have when it comes to my business. So be real with where you are. But back then, you know, I was like when I was getting this book deal and when I was growing the audience, I was all in and so that's why I was so motivated to get it done. So you gotta be real with what it is that you actually wanna do and the kind of work you wanna put into it.

Speaker 2:

Right, and that's going to change over the course of your entrepreneurship. You're going to have moments where you're like let's go for everything, I'm ready to build this empire. I want a million dollars, whatever those goals are. And then other times you're like I'm fucking tired, I'm good, I'm chill, I'm enjoying my life, right.

Speaker 1:

And so the and then I guess the publishing advice or just advice I'd give from what I know now. I think it's relates to a lot of things, but if I would have told some people what I was trying to do, they'd have like no way. Like you're not going to get that big of a book deal, like you're not going to sell books, like that, whatever. And I just think you need to go in the rooms and with the people where this, this stuff happens, where it's like what you want to do is like the bare minimum. You're like they happens. Where it's like what you want to do is like the bare minimum. You're like they're like what? Like you know we're getting million dollar book deals and I don't.

Speaker 1:

That can look like many things for me. That look like finding the podcasts and blogs and like like learning from other people who got book deals and reaching out. Like it was a lot of legwork, but it made my little delusions like a reality when I saw other people were able to do it. So I would say do your research, get to know the people who are actually doing the things you want to do, and for the people who have not done those things, they're not going to understand your goals and your dreams. So you have to really go with people where it's proven that it's worked for them and see how you can reverse engineer it to work for yourself.

Speaker 2:

Because I think too. If, if you're in a space where you're the biggest fish, you might even be dreaming small and not realize it right right, and sometimes it's okay to be like, you know, like a fish that's just chilling.

Speaker 1:

You know you're not really upstream, you're just letting the stream take you. But, um, I would assume, if you're listening or watching this, that you do want a book deal. You want to get your ideas out there. So, to you know, there's so much information, you got to be careful online too. There's a lot of scammers out there, people who are not like it's. They're lying about what they're doing. So be careful. But I think it's possible, like I'm just like who would have thought? Like I thought it. That's why I went after it. I thought it too.

Speaker 2:

I was like yeah, yeah, I thought it too. I mean, part of our job is talent hunting, right, looking at people and being like, no, I think this is going to go. And trusting myself to be like, hey, Jamila, like I believe this is going to go, you got to trust me and pay me some money and then trust me some more, exactly, but we made it happen, you know, and so the book is out there. This is going to first air in July, I believe. Actually, let me check, because I just we just switched it around to get it out sooner. Yes, it was going to go live in June of 2025. So, if you're listening to this, in 2025, your journey to financial freedom and hardcover is available anywhere books are sold. Bookshoporg is the amazing place to support your local independent bookstore. And then, of course, her paperback will be out in 2026, which actually is another sign of publishing success, because when hardcovers don't do very well, they don't even give you a paperback.

Speaker 2:

So, congratulations on that.

Speaker 1:

Thanks. You know, the other thing I was I mean this might be like offline conversation, but whatever I feel like it was a lot of pressure, like to get that much money, like I actually care. So I think the thing about it is I know there's people who are like I'll just get like a lot of money and I don't like care if the book sells Right. But I actually care, like I want the book to sell well and that people buy it and actually read it. And so I know in my contract it was like, you know, hardcover first year and then option for the paperback the next year. And so I was just like, well, I know it's not like selling gangbusters, it's not like selling, you know, tens of thousands a week. You know it's consistently selling, which is fine.

Speaker 1:

But I was just like, well, you know, is the paperback still going to come out? And then they came and said, oh, you know, they do want to put the paperback out. And I was like I was asking my agents like is this a good sign? Because I feel like it hasn't sold. I don't know that they've sold out how many copies they printed in the first run. So now that they want to print the paperback. What does that mean? They're like no, it's a good sign, because if they didn't think that they could sell the paperback or the hardcover wasn't selling, they wouldn't exercise that option for the paperback.

Speaker 2:

So I'm just like okay so I guess that's a good thing. They wouldn't throw good money after about. So hardcover to paperback it used to be very normal to be like hardcover in 2024, paperback in 2025. That's the standard and then, like I would say, five to 10 years ago, it started to shift. So you'll see books that exist in hardcover for a very long time. Our colleague, rachel Rogers her book stayed we Should All Be Millionaires stayed in hardcover for a very long time because they were trying to maximize those sales. So if they were seeing like tons and tons and tons of hardcover and her audience was not at all resistant to that pricing they're going to keep it at the higher price right for as long as they can spare. Prince harry another great example stayed in hardcover forever.

Speaker 2:

Atomic habits I don't think there's a paperback still of atomic habits. They're still putting that out right. But then when that starts to slow down and they start to see it, they they're going to go. They think of the pair back market as a secondary market, because it does. It is different, the pricing is different. So, and you know, a $10 price difference doesn't seem like a lot, but in a book it's a lot because, for whatever reason, people are price sensitive around books, right, so fine. So pair back market gets it to a different market. It gets it to a different ask of the bookstores that are selling it.

Speaker 2:

You know paperback, when I came into the industry it was just changing off of like they used to sell paperback rights, the way they sell audio rights or foreign rights. It's kind of crazy. It's that big of a market difference still Not as big as it used to be, but it's still a big difference and so they're going to try to max that out too. So that's the whole idea. And if they didn't sell out of your whole hardcover, there could be reasons for that. They could sell it to those like low cost book stores that you see. They could put it out on remainders, make it like a bargain book. They could do. They might just need the warehouse space. There's all sorts of reasons for that yeah nothing to do with you.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, I just it's so interesting like the whole process of you know getting that advance and then you know you're like, well, you paid me all this money. Like so we need to like make this as successful as possible and learning that it's just like listen, even if you don't earn out your advance, the book in their eyes could still be seen as successful. And I'm like how don't they want their money back? But it's like not necessarily because there's all these like calculations and like it's like a whole weighted model on how many books and how many advances. Like you know, like they may not have ever modeled for your book to earn out its advance, like they just needed it to earn out this much. And I'm just like this blows my mind Like this industry is.

Speaker 2:

They do all sorts of stuff and like, the other thing too is that level of advance, because I have, you know, I have two clients, you and another client, that were super similar in your background and your approach and like that advance did something to her that was not healthy or good. It put too much pressure, I think, on her. It kind of fucked with her mind, if that makes any sense, and I've seen that with higher advances where there were two.

Speaker 1:

Like she was like fixated, or the person is they can't. What do you mean?

Speaker 2:

like it was interesting, so it's very subtle. But so there's this idea in um. I was introduced to it in coaching, so I'm not sure of all the underlying science around it, but the idea is that your brain filters things based on what it believes. So, like if I said, Jamila, you're ugly, and you don't believe you're ugly, you're not going to receive that, your brain's going to be like fuck that, it's not true. Whatever, ignore that bitch right.

Speaker 2:

Versus like if you know, I say, hey, Jamila, you're smart and pretty, you're going to be like I am smart and pretty, thank you, yeah, that that's just the truth. But like you, you get that right. So like, okay, and that can happen with money too. So, like the idea that, like you got paid all this money, you didn't think that. You know, cognitively you said, yes, I want this money, but like your spirit was not there for it and it was like it couldn't receive it, and so then it just does stuff where you're not showing up and you, you know you're doing like high level self-sabotage in a lot of ways, and so we see that too. I joke that I'm an author therapist, but it's true, because it is this journey of ego and relationships and how people see you and how you see yourself and how your parents raised you.

Speaker 1:

If you were raised in a be humble environment, this is gonna challenge that Right right, or the fear of failure, of feeling like, oh I didn't.

Speaker 1:

You know, like someone who usually follows through and feels like you know, I'm gonna do what I say.

Speaker 1:

And you know, because I felt that I did feel that with the money, like it was, it felt like a lot of pressure, but I do feel like that is one of my superpowers is whatever that negative voice is is knowing that I am proud of the work and I know that it's helpful. So for me sometimes it's just a matter of it. Just, you know it's selling but even if it hasn't sold as much as I'd like it to, I feel like it's just takes one person, it just takes that one like thing and I can't control that. All I can do is do my best to show up, continue to tell the world about it and then, you know, people hopefully pick it up and read it and then it catches like that, just like the pod. Honestly, I kind of feel like that about how I started the podcast, where I'm doing my best to put out the work and I hope the people who need it find it and yeah, I can't.

Speaker 1:

I can't, it's I can't do anything else. I'm doing as what I feel, as much as I can in terms of it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and if you show up and do your best, that's good enough, right, like I think it's like you know it's their responsibility at the publisher to make that money work for them. If you show up and you hold your end of the bargain, you're promoting it, you wrote it, you delivered it. Then you've done what you can do. And I think that some people put a lot of pressure on that or they get some people, when they have that external pressure, thrive, like yourself, and then some people, if the pressure is too much, they kind of have a hard time and not like. We see that once in a while and it happens more often with higher advances. It can happen at any level of deal, but like it does tend to have more with higher advances interesting look at this.

Speaker 1:

Look at us doing like a little uh session at the end. Hopefully that would be helpful too.

Speaker 2:

I think it's helpful because it's like you don't understand. I feel like it's almost like marriage in that way, where I don't know about you. But when I got married I was like I wanted it so much. And then I I got married and literally like I don't know a weekend I was like what did I agree to you know what?

Speaker 1:

I mean. I was like I am legally and financially responsible well, I feel like that when he's responsible for me, I feel like that with kids, not like marriage, like that pressure right like um, yeah, it's a lot. It's like whoa asked for this, I did this and I'm going to show up and be the best I can be, but it's a lot when you think about what it takes and all that is necessary.

Speaker 2:

All of that right, it's very much that, and I think people feel that they get excited, but they feel that when they sign their contract, when they, you know, start writing the book when they start promoting the book.

Speaker 1:

All those things are like. It can be real trigger points for people.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, no, I can definitely see that. Well, okay, we just had an amazing like little therapy chat at the end of that, which is I love it, because I think the more we can educate authors about the process, the more capable they'll be and the more possible they'll see all of this, and that's why I want to bring on, you know, my clients who have been successful and who have, you know, had this dream years and years ago. You've been at it since 2016. You know, you got your deal in 21,. The book came out in 23. And that's a pretty like average trajectory, honestly, from when you start your audience to when you get the deal.

Speaker 2:

So, again, your journey of financial freedom. You got to get this book, y'all. It is amazing and Jamila has so many great strategies in this, both for, like, improving your financial life today and getting to the guac level that you want to have. So go buy it, whether it's in hardcover in 2025 or paperback in 2026. Thank you so much, Jamila, for taking the time and joining me today. Thank you, Meghan, for having me. This was really great. Yay, I enjoyed it too. Well, everybody cheers to your success and I will see you in two weeks. Thanks for tuning into the Kind of Big Book Deal podcast. Want to see where you're at on your book journey. Check out my free quiz at meghanstevensoncom forward slash quiz. That's M-E-G-H-A-N-S-T-E-V-E-N-S-O-N dot com forward slash quiz. See you next time.