Kind Of A Big Book Deal

Episode 16 - From Self-Publishing To a Three-Book Deal with Denise Duffield-Thomas

• Meghan Stevenson

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What if your messy first draft could become a bestselling book? 

In this episode of Kind of a Big Book Deal, Denise Duffield-Thomas opens up about her journey from self-publishing her first book Lucky Bitch to landing a traditional deal with Hay House. She shares how imposter syndrome nearly stopped her, how she turned early success into industry credibility, and why writing a book is more about momentum than mastery. 

Denise, together with host Meghan, demystifies the traditional publishing process, highlights why a book should be part of your marketing funnel (not your main income stream), and explains the power of mentorship, hiring help, and letting go of perfection. If you’ve ever thought, “Who am I to write a book?” this episode will inspire you to say, “Why not me?”

Denise Duffield-Thomas is the money mentor for the new wave of online entrepreneurs who want to make money and change the world.⁣ She helps entrepreneurs like you charge premium prices, release the fear of money and create First Class lives. ⁣Her books Lucky Bitch, Get Rich, Lucky Bitch, and her newest Chill and Prosper give a fresh and funny roadmap to living a life of abundance without burnout.⁣ Her Money Bootcamp has helped over 10,000 students from all around the world.⁣ She’s a lazy introvert, a Hay House author and an unbusy mother of 3. She lives on the East coast of sunny Australia with her family and two fur babies.

Website: www.denisedt.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/deniseDT/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/denisedt
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/deniseduffieldthomas 

Episode Highlights:
(0:00) Intro
(2:00) From self-publishing to bestseller status
(4:42) Childhood chaos, ADHD, and writing
(7:00) The Lucky Bitch origin story
(8:12) Marketing with sweat, networking, and grit
(10:15) Books as business cards and funnels
(13:01) Rejection from Hay House and what it taught her
(16:45) Why she wrote Chill and Prosper
(19:16) Getting an agent with support
(25:01) The ROI of hiring help
(30:00) Books don’t cannibalize, they amplify
(32:49) Narrating her own audiobook and owning her voice
(36:42) Updating language to stay inclusive
(39:00) How to actually finish your book
(42:26) Outro


Follow Meghan:

  • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megstevenson
  • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/megstevenson
  • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meghanstevenson/
  • TikTok: @meghan.stevenson.books
  • Website: https://www.meghanstevenson.com/


Have a great idea for a book but don't know where to start?MeghanStevenson.com/quiz


Traditional publishing expert Meghan Stevenson blasts open the gates of the “Big 5” – Penguin Random House, Simon & Schuster, HarperCollins, Hachette, and Macmillan – to share what every entrepreneur and expert needs to know about landing a book deal.

In episodes released every other Monday, Meghan shares wisdom and stories from 20+ years in publishing as well as interviews with authors, literary agents, and editors. She also answers questions from listeners like you.

Whether you are an experienced entrepreneur with an empire, or are just starting out – this podcast will help you understand what you need to do in order to turn your dream of being a bestselling author into real life.

Speaker 1:

You have to just say why not me? Because I've said so many times already in this interview, I don't feel like I'm a real author, I don't think I'm a particularly great writer, but I just went why not me? And just tried to be a little bit, almost dissociative about it, to be like I'm just going to pretend that I'm going to write a book and so I'm just going to do it.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to the Kind of a Big Book Deal podcast where entrepreneurs come to learn about traditional publishing. I'm your host, Meghan Stevenson. After working as an editor for two of the biggest traditional publishers, I started my own business helping entrepreneurs become authors. To date, my clients have earned over $5 million from publishers like Penguin, random House, simon Schuster and HarperCollins. In these podcast episodes, I blast open the well-kept gates to traditional publishing. I'll explain what every entrepreneur needs to know about landing a book deal without losing your mind. I'm going to share stories, answer your questions, interview the successful authors I've worked with and probably say platform more than a tech bro. So if you dream of landing on a bestseller list but have no idea how, this is the podcast for you, and I am so, so glad you're here.

Speaker 2:

Denise, everyone on the internet knows you, but I'm going to read your fancy third-person bio from your website because I just love that you say that like you knit to that because it's always like. Even as a copywriter, I always think it's weird that like we write to someone on our website and then all of a sudden, we're flipping the script and being like Meghan does this. So, Denise Duffield- Thomas is the money mentor for the new wave of online entrepreneurs who want to make money and change the world. She helps entrepreneurs charge premium prices, release the fear of money and create first class lives. That sounds like what you did as a result of or what I did, actually as a result of us working together.

Speaker 2:

Her books lucky bitch, get rich, lucky bitch and her newest, which I helped you with, chill and prosper, give a fresh and funny road map to living a life of abundance without burnout, and her money boot camp has helped over 10,000 students from all around the world. Denise describes herself as a lazy introvert. She's a Hay House author and she's an unbusy mom of three, and she lives in Australia with her family and her fur babies. Welcome, denise, to the pod, hi.

Speaker 1:

It's so I can't tell you how awkward it is sometimes sitting when someone reads out your bio, Isn't it horrible?

Speaker 2:

Well, especially if you're on YouTube, which this is, you know, watched by like tens of people, but, like it's just, like you know, I have YouTube face it's just like you see her, like I have youtube face.

Speaker 1:

Oh, I actually was on a podcast recently with a guy which I don't actually speak to, a lot of men in my world, but he'd obviously put my bio through chat gpt to like make it a bit more beefy and manly. It was so cute, but it was like she's crushing it at blah, blah, blah and I was like see that guy awkward, oh my god.

Speaker 2:

Okay, but in your bio we talked about this third book, chill and prosper. So I have to admit that Denise wrote this book by herself. But you came to me, uh, through our mutual friend, furnish Farabi, for your proposal. So can you tell me a little bit? We're gonna back all the way up to like day one of you becoming an author. How did you publish your first two books, lucky Bitch and Get Rich? Lucky Bitch.

Speaker 1:

Yes, okay, so I have to go back back, back back, right, because I think, like growing up, writing and well, first of all, reading was the most important thing for me growing up. I was such a bookworm as a kid and I think a lot of that has got to do with my undiagnosed ADHD for my whole life because I would read to calm my nervous system. Um, I had a very chaotic kind of childhood and so I really lost myself in books. But I was literally like walking to school, reading, reading during all of my classes, and if I would get in trouble for reading I'd be like you asked for this, and then I would kind of be quite disruptive, and so books were always super important. And I remember I was at a house party with my mom when I was young and someone had a typewriter and they let me play with it, and I just went oh my God, this is the most amazing thing ever. So for my ninth birthday, my mom bought me a typewriter, which was the most incredible present ever. She was a single mom, she didn't have a lot of money and she bought this um, electric olivetti typewriter, a little blue typewriter, and it was just like huh. So I started writing little stories and things, but I told everyone at school that my cousin was Kylie Minogue and I could get fan letters for like five dollars and because it was the 90s, if something was typed it was profesh. So, um, I think writing was always just something that was there, but I never thought that I could actually do it necessarily as a career.

Speaker 1:

However, in my early 20s I wrote my first self-published book called Internet Dating Tips for Men, and e-books were very new, not really seen as anything legitimate, but also you couldn't even really sell an ebook by yourself. I had to find an ebook broker to just to do the technology, because PDFs were so big it was really hard to email it to people. And I think that was kind of my first thing of like being a nonfiction author, of just going to tell people what you know. And I was living in London as a young 20 something and I was doing internet dating, which was kind of new, and realizing that everyone sucked at it and I think that's probably such a good seed for non-fiction of just going here's something I know. How can I tell you about it? And for the next couple of years I did write actually a couple of other ones and they were just little ones of like I was getting.

Speaker 1:

I was getting married, so I was writing about, um, create like making a green and ethical wedding, and you know just like, just kind of again what I knew. But I remember it was like 2009 ish and I was like universe send me a book title for like a million dollar book and like in the shower, all best ideas come and I was like lucky bitch and it, um, which is this is the first copy of it. Look at my cute little author picture. Um, and I love keeping this original copy because I even have like a lot of handwritten notes in there um, and gosh, I didn't even know where to start about this. It was just one of those things of like I just want to do it, you know, and I set a deadline. Look at all the notes in the back that I wanted to change in it. I set a deadline and I pre-sold copies and I just wrote it in like two weeks like a university assignment that was due and yeah launched that first book.

Speaker 2:

What's funny about that book is I looked back into our files. I went digging because we worked together in like 2017. So I went back all the way back there and found the amount of copies you had sold of both Lucky Bitch and Get Rich Lucky Bitch, and combined you had sold 20,000 copies of those books. So that's a lot like a lot of actual traditionally published books don't sell that much, so how were you so successful with your self-publishing venture?

Speaker 1:

I think when I first started my business, I went to a lot of conferences, a lot of events, and back then you'd meet someone at a conference or event and you would friend them on Facebook, you know, and I had these like little, um, uh, note cards that were. There were business cards, but there were tiny little ones, and then I made ones made out of um, fake money with my face on it. And this was before I had kids too. So I was kind of just going to every event and um, and the trick is, as an introvert, that I would always do it every one of these conferences, I would be the first person to raise my hand to ask a question every single time and I'd be like, oh, sydney Stafford Thomas, author of Lucky Bitch, um, here's my question. And so it was literally just sweat equity and networking and speaking to lots of people. And so then when I launched that first book, I just people just bought it, which?

Speaker 2:

is amazing.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's, I think that's what happened. And then I was really lucky, though I think that that first couple of years of self-publishing you know, when you could put it on Amazon and Kindle and all that kind of stuff, like it was, still there wasn't a ton of competition, I think, for self-published books, whereas I think now, like it's so much easier, the barriers are so much lower for people just to chuck stuff up there. But I was really surprised, though, that people didn't really judge it as being self-published, and I don't know. It was the weirdest thing, because I remember putting author in my email signature and I just felt like such an imposter about it. But people would be like, oh, you have a book, you wrote a book and I'd go I guess I did, because you're saying it, it must be true and I guess, yes, I do. So it was, um, just like pushing forward and just doing it without trying to overthink it too much and also knowing how, like a book is just something that is a business card in lots of ways for, especially for self-published, um, but non-fiction, like I very much saw it as like this is a starting point, this is a business card and I think, to being self-published. I knew that I could change it, which I find really hard in traditional publishing, how long things take and how static they can be. But I mean, this was literally the first version. I probably changed it like four or five times and it's had lots of different covers, which that's, that's the current cover, which actually does need to be updated now, but it's had like four or five different covers and so that feeling of like oh, it's a living, breathing thing and it just made it feel a little bit less scary. But also I found that what was really motivating about my second book so that one was Get Rich, lucky Bitch, which I couldn't find a copy of People would read the book and then just join my programs, you know, and I'd be like, oh, how did you find out?

Speaker 1:

Oh, I read your book. And then I think word of mouth was really a big thing, because I don't feel like I've even really promoted my books that much in the last couple of years. But people will say, oh, my mentor told me I had to read this book. My friend told me I had to read this book. My friend told me I had to read this book and it just kind of grew from there. But I would say, personally I've been very unattached to them. I've just been like you guys go out there and you know do your thing do your thing exactly um, and I actually don't.

Speaker 1:

I think that's again that imposter syndrome. I don't feel like I'm a great writer, so when people talk about I'm like let's not talk about it, it feels like people reading your diary. In a little way it's like, oh no, let's pretend that's not happening.

Speaker 2:

I loved your first two books. When I read them I was like her. Your voice is you, like there's no other Denise, and it's very clear to me and I think that's part of why you're successful, and certainly I see that among many of my clients that their voice just stands out and just is like you couldn't mistake it for anyone else. So because you had so much success self-publishing, what made you want to switch over to traditional? A lot of authors want to do that right.

Speaker 1:

Yes, I mean, I think there was always a part of me that thought, oh, that would be really cool to see my book in an airport bookshop, like that was the thing. I was like airport bookshop, that would be so legit. So it was kind of always in the back of my mind, but it wasn't something that I was going to pursue myself honestly, because, again, I just didn't feel like I had the confidence to um, to push myself forward for it. And also and this is where you helped me the publishing world felt very scary to me, um, and just something that I was like, oh no, I don't, I just don't even want to go there, and just something that I was like, oh no, I don't, I just don't even want to go there.

Speaker 1:

What happened, though, is that Hay House approached me and I think this was 2015. And it was Amy Kybert and she from the UK office, and she said look, I've been on your newsletter list for a while, which is such a good sign right Of going. You never know who's watching, you never know who's paying attention to you, and she's like I love your voice, you know, I love what you're doing. I would love to pitch you to my bosses at Hay House. And so I was like, oh well, if it's going to land in my lap, like why not? And so I put together some of my numbers you know sales figures and social media numbers and all that kind of stuff and, you know, went through the process and she was like you know what it's, they just can't get past the word bitch in in your books. And my actual company name was called Lucky Bitch back then as well. So it was like bitch all over the place. And, and you know what, I was just so grateful to go through that process. It really taught me a lot, and just to really solidify, you know, I was just so grateful to go through that process. It really taught me a lot, and just to really solidify you know what the messages of the book books were. And so I just said, oh, my god, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. You know, thank you, and I'll I'll kind of, you know, come back to you in the future when my numbers are better or whatever. And but secretly I went, okay, this has given me like a bit of a North star now. And so I knew that the bitch thing, it was real. But also it really wasn't, it was. I was like, if it, if my numbers were so undeniable like they wouldn't be able to say no, and that's kind of what I said to myself. I was like, okay, I'm going to go back and work on my social media, I'm going to like shift a few things, so then next time they will not be able to say no.

Speaker 1:

And at the same time, a few things were happening in my business that were making things difficult with the word bitch, so Facebook weren't allowing my ads to go through, and not only just for my company name. I remember there was a video where, like, it was just on a logo on the back wall and we had to blur it out. Mid-launch we had to change it on landing pages, just so many things. They just it was just flagging and it was also flagging in some people's email systems and you know, if they were reading my newsletter at work, it just became just a little bit annoying. So that's when we changed the company name to Denise DT and also I just went, okay, I'm going to push those numbers.

Speaker 1:

So then, 2017, when, when I contacted you, I had the idea for the book which at the time, was called Chillpreneur, and this came out of when I had my third baby and I was like I just cannot do business like these guys are teaching business, like it just doesn't work for my nervous system anymore. And I was reading Tim Ferriss's book Tools of Titans and I love his books. Four-hour work week for me was such a instigator, I think, in starting my business the way I did. But in Tools of Titans there was a like a case study about this man who just like worked, you know, got up at four o'clock in the morning to do a podcast. It was just crazy.

Speaker 1:

And I was breastfeeding my third baby and I was just like I'm never going to be able to have my business ever again. Like how am I going to do this? Like it's just not possible. And that's when I just went oh no, like I think I remember thinking why doesn't Tim have all these case studies about women and mothers? And like, and then I just went he can't. Like how can he possibly write that book? He can't, that's not his experience.

Speaker 1:

And so I just went okay, I'm going to write a book like that that I want to be able to read. And that was the seed of that and I always knew that I want to be able to read and that was the seed of that. And I always knew that I wanted to pitch it to Hay House. But I didn't really, um, like I again, I didn't know about the publishing world, right. So I contacted them and said, look, I've got this idea. And they were like, yeah, put together a proposal. And I was just like what, how do you?

Speaker 1:

Even so, I'm a big fan of hiring people for their expertise, especially, I've never had a big team in my business, but I love hiring people for like, that's your piece of the puzzle, just do that thing for me and with me. Which is why I contacted you, because I wanted to pitch them this new book, but also to say to them you can have the other books. Like because I wanted to pitch them this new book, but also to say to them you can have the other books. Like because I would love to see them professionally published. And I had actually paid for an editor to go through them and like, hey, houseify them. And so I could kind of sort of go like make it a no brainer offer and to say here are my numbers now, and you know, to kind of package it all up and just to go here you go, yeah, and that's awesome, and I think a lot of times too, what you said there.

Speaker 2:

It's really important in terms of like being. You know you got approached, which does happen. I always see it as a good sign. But it's an early sign. It's not always the the immediate fairy godmother type of you know destiny, landing in your inbox sort of thing. Not always the first time, sometimes the second, sometimes the third, don't you know? Take apart everything I said if I land in your inbox, obviously I am your fairy godmother.

Speaker 2:

Go with me, yeah, you are, because we do occasionally reach out to people like that that we think have talent or that. You know we just got a book deal for somebody like that exactly. So you know it's interesting that you say that. But what I wanted to point out about what you said is that you went and you hustled your buns off to get those first two books to sell and then you leverage that into a third deal, and I think a lot of people don't realize how that is. The catalyst for the traditional deal is that you have to have a really good sales history for these previous two books, because they don't want to pick up those other two books, even if it's a package deal. If those books aren't already selling, they want to. They basically want to make free money when you sell them those books. Right, and that's that's what publishers are trying to do, for sure, and that's what your agent probably went to them with as well.

Speaker 1:

Yes, so which, by the way, you introduced me to my agent because even that world is as well just felt like, oh my god, why would they even look at me? And I think to a lot of like, especially non-fiction. You just feel like I'm not a real writer. You know, I'm not a real author. That's how I feel all the time. And so the fact that you introduced me to an agent which, to be honest, they wouldn't have looked at me if we didn't have a deal on the table, and you know, for me it just felt like, oh cool, that's just an extra, you know, piece of the puzzle to be able to go to them and say, look, we've pretty much already got a deal in place for three books. So can you just represent me? Yeah, can I just?

Speaker 2:

do this, yeah, and at the time, I think online entrepreneurship was relatively new too I mean, we're talking about 2017. So I had to, like explain to the publishing industry a sales funnel, essentially and you were so gracious to explain all of the world of online entrepreneurship to me. I basically got a crash course from one of the greats. It's kind of amazing, like I. I remember the day I remember sitting in my law department in San Francisco and my husband came home and I told him I was like Denise says I can retire you, and he's like what, who's Denise?

Speaker 2:

I don't want to retire him now because he makes good money and carries the health insurance.

Speaker 1:

But I do one day want to out earn him, and that's just as good right, um, yes, oh god, there's a whole book in that of me working with my husband. It's so hard.

Speaker 2:

Bless you bless you, I would never like me. During COVID, we had a brilliant place not this place, but like a brilliant place that had like suited bedrooms, and that is the only thing that saved us is like a division of literal, physical division. My lord, oh, so I get that. Yeah, I would love to hear what you learned, if you had one lesson to share, about self-publishing and then about traditional publishing, that you, you know, would tell any entrepreneur who wants to be an author well, I think I've said the word imposter syndrome like a million times already in this.

Speaker 1:

But I think now, looking at it, you just go, oh, they're just people who are looking for books to sell, like it's a business and like they're just people, I don't know. It's so such a weird thing. And I think putting yourself forward for something like that isn't strange to those people, because they're looking for books, right. So they're not like how dare you send us an idea for a book? How dare you? Because that's what they're looking for.

Speaker 1:

And I think too, there's when I look back at this book, especially Lucky Bitch, and I think I couldn't write that now I really couldn't, like I feel like I'm a bit more cynical now and so there's times where I want to go back and like change everything in that book, but I can't because people want what that book captured.

Speaker 1:

In that time of my life of like kind of a bit of naivete, you know, positivity, I'm like, oh, I know too much. Now I couldn't write that book, which doesn't mean it's wrong, it just means I'm so glad I captured that at that time in my life. And I know that there are books yet to come that I cannot write yet, because I'm not that person yet. And that's really important too, because then you go there is no right or wrong time to write a book, right, but there's no like waiting for the time to be right either, and that can be, I think, a hard lesson to learn. Um, the other thing which was really important going through the process too, and you might remember, like the first version of the book mm-hmm, and I loved the title, but I hated.

Speaker 1:

I hated this cover so the cover is bad.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's so bad and I think because I was a new author, first time working in the publishing world, I pushed back as much as my like, as much as my good girl could push back on it and I went. You know what? I'm gonna put this out to the universe and just say I'm so unattached. And you know, when some people I see people and they're so devastated by things like that and they're just like, and I just went, if that's the cover that they want, cool, that's fine. I will be just as unattached to this book as I am to all the other books and I know that the book is really good. So I'm just going to be like give it up to the universe. But I was like secretly going universe, please just sort this out for me. So what actually happened was so it launched in 2019. And so already, right, that's a four year process of when they first contacted me to when this came out with Hay House, contacted me to when this came out with Hay House and after, well, mid-pandemic, they went.

Speaker 1:

We would love you to do a new version of this book, which. How often does that happen? Like literally two years later and they went. Look like the world's changed a little bit. We'd love a few more case studies. And I went great, can we please change the cover? And they went, yes, but we've never really liked the name. Can we change the name? And I had already created my podcast called Chill and Prosper, so I just went great, can we call it Chill and Prosper? And then that's the new cover, which I love and I think is just so much more me and timeless and and so that never happens, right where you get to change your cover and the title two years later.

Speaker 2:

It's very, very rare, and so the universe delivered. It might have taken its time, but the universe 100 times delivered. Okay, so your expertise is money mindset. So now I'm going to ask you some money questions. What money lesson did you learn by investing in help to write that proposal that landed you that Hay House deal?

Speaker 1:

I would not have done it myself at all, I just wouldn't have. And so I think it's always worth paying to shortcut success, paying to open doors. I would never have gotten an agent by myself and actually even having those three books ready to go, I still wouldn't. It still wouldn't have been enough without the personal introduction, because you know, like having an agent felt like such a big deal, but you know it's kind of a favor based on your years and years of expertise and relationship building. That got me that agent, let's face it. And so that's what you pay for right when you pay for expertise is doors opening, introductions, short-cutting success, procrastination as well, and I tried to procrastinate it and you really had to keep me on track with stuff right Like this and this.

Speaker 2:

That's our job. Adult babysitting, high level project management. You know like, yeah, a hundred percent.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I actually paid someone to help me not write the book but keep me on track writing the book too, because again, again, I knew I had a you know quite a long time to write it because obviously publishing is such a longer process. But I was like I don't want this to become something I have to do in the last two weeks of my deadline yes, and believe you me, I've gotten call.

Speaker 2:

It is not a good call to get.

Speaker 1:

And I've lived that experience my whole life with ADHD, and so I knew that was worth paying for as well. That pretty much took most of my advance, by the way, but I knew that I would just not have done that. And again, I think too, because I knew that, that for me this like having the books out there were, you know, marketing for me and business cards and all this kind of stuff the money that I made from that was not feeding my kids. You know, it wasn't something that I had to rely on. And also, even now, like I mean this, all of these books sell, sell quite well all the time.

Speaker 1:

But it's not like millionaire money, right, and I see this a lot with people that they're like, oh well, that's going to be the thing that makes the money, and I'm like it's not. You know, that's like a part of your funnel and it's so worthy and worthwhile and it is absolutely going to help your profile, your credibility, all of these things. But you have to go into it with with eyes wide open, and I think that's what I did. I really went into it with a plan and just very like unemotional. Who do I need to help me to to do this to put to put together the, to make it happen and to help me navigate this new world that I don't know how to navigate?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I would like to delve back into the question about, or the point you made about, the book not being the moneymaker. So a lot of times when people come to me they say you know they're in that position where maybe our fees are their entire advance. Right, but would you have said I mean in terms of your funnel and you don't need to open up the whole funnel to the world, but in terms of the funnel I would assume that your book is the lowest cost price and that where you want people to actually where people get the best result, is in the boot camp. Yeah, and I'm guessing there's a pretty significant price difference between those two things yes, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

And there are a lot of people in my industry who do have low-cost products. You know, um, like there's a whole thing at the moment of having like a nine dollar product and it could be a webinar or a workshop or whatever. I've always kind of been like I'm free or it's like a significant investment to work with me, because I, honestly, I've always just wanted a small team. I can't be bothered with the customer service. You know you can have difficult customers at $9. You can have difficult customers at $9,000, everything in between, right. So I've always just kind of been like I have whatever. And the only exceptions are the books. So you know, they're a couple of dollars sometimes on sale for Kindle or audio. And then bootcamp is two and a half thousand, and there are literally people who have read my book and just joined my program and of course I've edited them and written them with that in mind of making sure that there's links in there that send people on a you know down a marketing funnel kind of thing.

Speaker 1:

And also, too, I think some people would go well, why would I write a nonfiction book that tells people all of my stuff? And then why would they pay to work with me and I always think you know like it's a completely different experience. And if you had your favorite artist in town, you wouldn't say but I've listened to their songs before. Like, I know their songs, I have it on tape. Why would I go to their concert? And it's like, well, you go to their concert because it's a completely different experience and you get to experience it with other people and you get to, you know, get closer to that person. And so I think sometimes nonfiction people think that books are going to cannibalize their client work, but it doesn't, it only amplifies it. And the thing that always really surprises me is how many people will say to me you're my mentor, and yet we've never met. And they say well, because I feel like I've been mentored through your books, I feel like you're my best friend.

Speaker 1:

You know, I feel like I know you through the books and I think that is the power of of having a book out there, um, and especially with um, you know, being able to do it in audio and I always narrate my own books, which is definitely a process. It's really fun, um, but I really do. When I sit there in recording studio, I dread it in the lead up to it because I think I'm going to have to be sat there for like three or four days like trapped in a room. But I sit there and I look at it and I really do imagine someone listening in their car on their commute to work. I really do feel it and I try and transmit that energy through it. Really do feel it and I try and transmit that energy through it. And I actually got in so much trouble the first time I recorded for Hay House, for Lucky Bitch, because I was like just kind of ad-libbing a little bit they don't like that it doesn't work.

Speaker 1:

But I would be. I'd read something out and I'd go, oh, let me tell you, like a little aside on this. Or like, oh, let me tell you the real tea behind this kind of thing. And they were like, oh, no, you have to read it verbatim because it's the whisper sync thing for kindle and the. And I was like, oh, that's not fun.

Speaker 1:

And then the second time I did it, I was working with the new audio engineer and he would just mark mistakes and he'd go back and fix them later and he left in a few mistakes and so people would be like, oh, my god, I love the audio version. Because you'd be like, oh, no, wait, sorry, let me start again. And like it was a total mistake. But it just added to that feeling of like, oh, I know, I know her, um, and yeah, it's such a like it is a massive process sitting there and reading the book, but it is. It is super fun. But it always makes me think of things I want to change. And actually, when I got to change from chillpreneur to chill and prosper, I sent all the edits to them in a Google doc and I'd just be like, you know, insert this, insert this and I had it in a lot more like chill puns in there and I remember I finished it at like 3am and like sent the the google doc and then I woke up at six o'clock and I was like I need to put one more thing in and because it was a live doc, I just like snuck in there and like changed one word. But I love that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, one other thing that I did, which people are always shocked about the very first time I got back all the edits from them, I started reading it and I found it so painful and scary to see it and read all of the changes, and so I got only got to the first chapter and I literally clicked accept all and then closed it down because I don't think I'm I'm not precious about my words at all, but also I learned a lot about oh, I write in the passive voice a lot you know, and I didn't know any of those things, and so I just went oh yeah, they haven't changed anything fundamental. They were totally happy to leave in swearing and stuff like that. So I just clicked accept all, closed, it went about my life and then I just try not to think about them. I'm like if that helps people but it's not my business anymore.

Speaker 2:

I love that letting go, I love that detachment. I know it's part of your, you know your spiritual practice and your belief system, but I just I love that Like I think that's a very healthy way to go about it. You know, I see people freaking out and holding on so tightly to their books or being. I just recently had an author who was afraid to. You know, I was collaborating with her and she was afraid to read her chapters because it meant it was real right. And we figured it out. We were able to identify it and give her the space she needed to then come back and jump right back in. But it is a. It's a journey, for sure, okay it feels very vulnerable.

Speaker 1:

It really does and, as I said, I would love to go back and change some things in those earlier books. However, normally what happens, I found, between versions is all the people who get me too'd. That was the biggest thing between 15 and 17. I was like, oh, I've put all these quotes in, all these guys who ended up being me too. Yeah, yeah. So there's a couple of things where sensibilities change and I'm glad sometimes to be able to change just like slight wording or energy of things, but I'd really try not to change the essence of those books, even though I'm such a different person now, if that makes sense.

Speaker 2:

And that's okay. I mean, I don't think I was listening to Taylor Swift before we got on. I don't think she's actually said she won't really record reputation, she can't Right, and so I think that's really smart. She's like. That was a time in my life. I don't, I've tried. It's not quite the same. I'm not. It's not better, it's not an improvement. If y'all want to geek out about it, you can, but I don't think it's. You know it's. It's weird. It was one of those things where she couldn't replicate it. She couldn't improve upon it.

Speaker 1:

It wasn't gonna, you know, differ that much I understand what she means by that too, because it's like she can't reach where she was at that time, and I totally get that. There's a couple of things that weigh on me sometimes of just like being a bit flippant about things. Or, you know, just as I learned more about the world, I think there were things where I'm like, oh, that's, that's not very inclusive, you know, or that's not, and I actually did change a lot of the language to be a lot more gender inclusive as well in a lot of my books, and you know. So I'm always grateful for the opportunity to fix some things like that. Or you know, things that I didn't intend to be non-inclusive or, you know, insulting to certain people Like I. You know, I think that's important to be able to shift and grow and change.

Speaker 2:

Agreed, okay, so what is your best piece of advice related to money for entrepreneurs who want to write a book, since money is your sweet?

Speaker 1:

spot.

Speaker 1:

Oh, for entrepreneurs who want to write a, because I've said so many times already in this interview, I don't feel like I'm a real author, I don't think I'm a particularly great writer, but I just went why not me?

Speaker 1:

And just tried to be a little bit, almost dissociative about it, to be like I'm just going to pretend that I I'm going to write a book and so I'm just going to do it. I'm just going to pre-sell it, so I don't have to think about it and overthink it. I'm just going to do it. I'm just going to pre-sell it, so I don't have to think about it and overthink it. I'm just going to hire someone else to help me do the proposal, so I don't have to think about it. And it's almost like you have to be a bit delusional, a little bit, and to say why not me? And this is the same for anything in entrepreneurship, whether you want to launch a course, a program, create an offering, I honestly think being delusional and almost pretending that someone else doing it, because if someone else wrote a book, you would just be like, oh, you wrote a book.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you would make such a big deal out of it, right?

Speaker 1:

It wouldn't be so heavy, it wouldn't be such a big deal, yes, and you go that is a thing that people do, they write books, like, and so you have to pretend that you are just that person for a little bit. But put those little things into place like you know deadlines, accountability, hiring people to help you because then you don't back out of it like, you just have to put the momentum in place. And it's the same thing where someone will say to me I really want to create a course, and I go, great, hire a videographer, and they're like but I don't know what the course is going to be, and I'm like but you will, by that time, and then hire a makeup artist and then hire something, even if it's just somebody you know to be like, hey, this is what me and my friend did. We hired a hotel room and we're like let's just go do it together.

Speaker 1:

And because most of the time you will chicken out, you will let yourself down a million times, but most of us we won't let other people down, we won't and we will, we will do it, do the thing. If we create a deadline, if we create public accountability and I feel like that's the only way I've really made money is just to kind of take it a little bit outside myself and and just move forward. And I've never done anything perfectly ever in my business and I'm still like I'm not going to say a hot mess, because I'm clearly like competent in some areas, but I feel like I'm still just making it up right and just making giving the opportunity for people to buy from you, like literally make it available is my only piece of advice for most things.

Speaker 2:

I love it because I think what I see all the time is like this attitude of like I'll get to that, or it's not the right time, or I was thinking next year this thing or that thing, or like they're asking questions that are like you know about the taxes on their advance, when they haven't posted on Instagram in a month. You know it's things like that. It's just like okay, come on, guys.

Speaker 1:

Like I used to think what if Oprah wants me on her show and I have to get up at 3 am for hair and makeup? This was like my first year and I'd be like write your freaking book.

Speaker 2:

I love that, though. Well, oprah ain't calling anymore, so I mean she does stuff, but she doesn't do. I mean she only gets on TV to, like, talk about Ozempic. So, and Harry and Meghan, so you're good.

Speaker 1:

I love Oprah always. I was actually thinking about Oprah this morning. I was like, yeah, she's the best, but anyway, yes, just do the thing. Honestly, no one can make you. Nobody can stop you now, especially with self-publishing. Literally, nobody can stop you, but no one can force you to do it. So you have to just put those little things into place, um, because I don't have any willpower either, so I've just had to, you know, hire people like you to help and go on, do the thing. Now you need to send me this one little piece okay, right okay, this link.

Speaker 2:

Give me this explanation, tell me how your business works so that I can copy you low key for a little while. Yeah, that's the secret of my job is I get to learn and benefit from everybody, and it's pretty awesome, especially when people are as amazing as you. Miss Denise Duffield- Thomas, thank you so much for joining us today. I know that our listeners are going to get a lot out of it, so y'all have some books to add to your reading list. I highly recommend Lucky Bitch. Get Rich Lucky Bitch and, of course, chill and Prosper.

Speaker 1:

Yay, and thank you for asking me, because I remember when you put out something and I was like, oh, I wonder if she's going to ask me.

Speaker 2:

And then you emailed me.

Speaker 1:

I was like yes, of course I love it, I love it, I love it.

Speaker 2:

I was grateful because you know sometimes authors be, you know, entrepreneurs be weird, like about that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1:

Some people are reciprocal and some people aren't you know? I love interviews. So literally every Thursday I do five in a row because I love batching up my interviews the only reason I've got two today but I'm going to the hairdresser, that's why. But interviews are my favorite, favorite thing because I can just turn up and just talk Like this is what I've been doing my whole life right. I used to get in trouble for talking in class. I'm like now I get to do it for real. So thank you.

Speaker 2:

You're very welcome. You're super welcome.

Speaker 1:

Good luck everybody. You're very welcome, you're super welcome good luck, everybody write your book.

Speaker 2:

Thanks for tuning into the kind of big book deal podcast. Want to see where you're at on your book journey. Check out my free quiz at meghanstevensoncom forward slash quiz. That's m-e-g-h-a-n-s-t-e-v-e-n-s-o-ncom forward slash quiz. See you next time.