Kind Of A Big Book Deal

Episode 19 - How 18 Months of Rejection Turned Into a Six-Figure Book Deal with Dr. Natalie Nixon

• Meghan Stevenson

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What if the very thing holding you back from a book deal isn’t your writing, but your platform? In this episode, Meghan sits down with Dr. Natalie Nixon to unpack the highs and lows of her author journey. From countless rejections to finally landing a deal for The Creativity Leap, Natalie reveals the grit, courage, and community support it took to get there.

Whether you dream of landing a traditional publishing deal or simply want to bring your ideas into the world, Natalie’s story is a masterclass in resilience, creativity, and believing in your work even when the path isn’t clear.

This week’s guest is Natalie Nixon, Ph.D. Dr. Natalie Nixon is the creativity whisperer to the C-suite, helping companies connect the dots between creativity and business impact. At Figure 8 Thinking she’s a creativity strategist, global keynote speaker and author of the award-winning The Creativity Leap. She’s ranked in the 2024 Thinkers50 Radar cohort and Real Leaders named Natalie one of the top 50 keynote speakers globally. She’s been featured in Forbes, INC and Fast Company.

Natalie received her BA from Vassar College, and her PhD from the University of Westminster. She’s a lifelong dancer, swimmer and doodler. She lives in Philadelphia with her husband, John Nixon.

Find Natalie Nixon on social 

Preorder your Move. Think. Rest. hardcover today and sign up for the “Ever Wonder…?” Free newsletter at www.figure8thinking.com and https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/dr-natalie-nixon-ph-d/move-think-rest/9780306835582/?lens=balance 

Episode Highlights:
(0:00) Intro
(1:14) Introducing Dr. Natalie Nixon and her new book Move. Think. Rest.
(2:23) Natalie’s journey from academia to publishing her first book
(5:29) Facing 18 months of rejection and revising her proposal
(7:40) The chance email that led to a book deal
(10:08) How developmental editing shaped The Creativity Leap
(16:03) The hard truth about platform and publishing
(18:09) Building courage through life experiences
(21:07) Growing her platform through community and consistency
(23:11) Becoming a top 50 global keynote speaker
(29:10) The power of showing up authentically as an author


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Have a great idea for a book but don't know where to start?MeghanStevenson.com/quiz


Traditional publishing expert Meghan Stevenson blasts open the gates of the “Big 5” – Penguin Random House, Simon & Schuster, HarperCollins, Hachette, and Macmillan – to share what every entrepreneur and expert needs to know about landing a book deal.

In episodes released every other Monday, Meghan shares wisdom and stories from 20+ years in publishing as well as interviews with authors, literary agents, and editors. She also answers questions from listeners like you.

Whether you are an experienced entrepreneur with an empire, or are just starting out – this podcast will help you understand what you need to do in order to turn your dream of being a bestselling author into real life.

Speaker 1:

When I show up, I am showing up genuinely enthusiastic and excited about these ideas that I believe will help to change their lives, and that will either come through or it won't. So I've got to feel it first.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to the Kind of a Big Book Deal podcast where entrepreneurs come to learn about traditional publishing. I'm your host, Meghan Stevenson. After working as an editor for two of the biggest traditional publishers, I started my own business helping entrepreneurs become authors. To date, my clients have earned over $5 million from publishers like Penguin, random House, simon Schuster and HarperCollins. In these podcast episodes, I blast open the well-kept gates to traditional publishing. I'll explain what every entrepreneur needs to know about landing a book deal without losing your mind. I'm going to share stories, answer your questions, interview the successful authors I've worked with and probably save platform more than a tech bro. So if you dream of landing on a bestseller list but have no idea how, this is the podcast for you, and I am so, so glad you're here. All right y'all. So today I am thrilled to have one of my favorite clients, dr Natalie Nixon, here. Natalie is known as the creativity whisper to the C-suite and she helps companies and individuals connect the dots between creativity and business impact. So she has an amazing company called Figure Eight Thinking and she is ranked in the 2024 Thinkers 50. Radar Cohort and Real Leaders named her one of the 50 top keynote speakers globally. All she's been featured in Forbes, inc. Fast Company, and her new book is literally coming out the day after this podcast, on September 2, 2025.

Speaker 2:

It is called move, think rest, which is like 100 times better of a title than what we had when we went out on submission with it, which was it was called invisible work, which I also liked, but this is so much better. Move, think rest. Thank you to you, thank you to your editor. Like all these amazing people, this book's coming up tomorrow. We're gonna talk about that. But you know you have a super long history with with books like this is not your first book. Move think rest is not your first book. Move think rust is not your first book. So I want to start at with like the story, right, like what is the story behind your career? Can you tell me a little bit about your career as an author?

Speaker 1:

my career as an author is storied. No pun intended, we love funs here.

Speaker 1:

Yes, yes, yes yes, I was an academic for 16 years. I was a professor for 16 years, certainly did a ton of writing, but it was academic journal style writing and I really wanted to write a book to get my kind of street cred in the design thinking, human centered innovation community. But I had to wait until after I finished writing a PhD while working full time because it was impossible, humanly impossible, to do both. So I finished that PhD in design management and I go to an editor named Olga Consias, who at the time was an editor at Fairchild. Fairchild was then acquired by Bloomsbury and I used to review a lot of textbooks around the fashion industry. For Fairchild. I used to teach the business of fashion and Olga had said to me right before I started the PhD program wow, we want to do some books in the space of design thinking. Please write one when you're done. So I follow up with her. But by then the university had asked me to launch a strategic design MBA program and I said, olga, there's no way I can solely author a book. How about I edit a book? And she said I don't know. Editing a book is like herding cats. I was like, no, it can't be that bad. And Olga was right, it was like herding feral cats. No offense to my amazing contributors, they were all incredible. They were wonderful people and strategic design thinking came out. And it was my first published work as an editor and I contributed a chapter to that book, wrote the intro, the conclusion, curated it.

Speaker 1:

Fast forward I leave academia in 2017. And I start doing a ton of keynote speaking and I use my keynote speaking as a way to prototype ideas. It's a way for me to test out frameworks I'm a frameworks nerd and see how it lands with people, because when you give a keynote, you get pretty immediate feedback on how these ideas are landing. What started to happen as I was testing out ideas around wonder and rigor and intuition and carrying forward a lot of my research for my PhD around improvisation? People were consistently coming up to me after my keynotes and asking that was really great, where can I read more about that? And at the time I was a regular contributor to Inc magazine and I could, you know, point them to an article here and there. But it quickly dawned on me that these kinds of questions meant that it was time for me to get serious about having one-stop shopping, one place where people could go to really dive deeply into these ideas I was sharing out from the stage. So easier said than done.

Speaker 1:

As you know, Meghan, the book that became the creativity leap went through 18 months of rejections and 18 months of being told no, really for two polar opposite reasons. The responses I consistently got were either A this has already been said we're not interested in this book. Or B this is incredible, but we don't have the bandwidth right now to take it on. So it was a lot of wah, wah, wah, and I was just getting no's, no's, no's about. I guess a year into those no's, I'd hired a business coach who helped me to revise my proposal. He said your book proposal is awful, that's why you're not getting any bites. I was like, okay, so I follow his template. Still rejections.

Speaker 1:

And in January of 2019, I was in the doldrums and I said to John, my husband I guess my ideas just aren't any good. No one is interested in publishing. Now, keep in mind, I did not have a literary agent. I didn't have any ends of any cool editors or publishers, so I knew nothing. I just knew that I did not want to self-publish. I knew I wanted to go through informal channels. So in that year January of 2019, I was about to just like give up on it and John said no, babe, you're amazing, I think your ideas are great.

Speaker 1:

What does he know? He's a lawyer. No, just kidding, john. You know you're amazing and you already have a book, so why not Just keep trying? I was like, ok, and for some reason an idea flew into my head to email five different people who, some of us, we had never met in person, but we were email buds. I was a fan of their work and they were highly published people. And so I literally emailed each of these five people and I said here's a book proposal.

Speaker 1:

This is the gist of the book. If you are comfortable with it. I would be really appreciative if you didn't mind sharing this among your publishing. You know published network and but but no problem at all If you don't want to do, if you don't feel comfortable doing this. I always, I always gave them an out. One of those people was Jim Gilmore. Pine and Gilmore were coauthors of an incredible book called the Experienced Economy, and Jim replied pretty quickly and he said this looks interesting. I'm going to share it with an editor I know at Barrett Kohler, and I was like Barrett Kohler, paris Schmoller, I didn't know what.

Speaker 2:

Barrett Kohler was I'd never heard of.

Speaker 1:

Barrett. I was like yes, please, thank you, and you know, went about my day. And about three days later Neil Malet from Barrett Kohler responded and said this looks really interesting, let's have a call Again. My expectations are super low. And I said yes, please, thank you. That's lovely of you and we have a call. We ended up spending like an hour on the phone. Neil and I Told you about Neil was the VP of editorial at Vericolor.

Speaker 1:

I didn't even know that. And he said I like this book, I like these ideas. Listen, we're having a pitch meeting on Thursday. So the call was on Monday. He said we're having a pitch meeting on Thursday and I'll let you know by five o'clock what we think. I said okay, thank you know.

Speaker 1:

What about my week? Again, no expectations, because I was so used to getting rejected and being told no. So Thursday comes and goes, five o'clock, comes and goes, nothing. And I thought all right, another one bites the dust.

Speaker 1:

And Friday morning I opened my email and there is an email from Neil which I've saved to this day. The subject was Bravo, in all caps and exclamation mark. He said I pitched it to our editorial team. They loved it. We want to offer you a book deal. I had forgotten he was in San Francisco and I was in Philly and therefore there's a time difference, so that's why I never saw the email Thursday at five.

Speaker 1:

But anyway, all that to say that my journey as a published author has been a case study of putting a lot of spaghetti, throwing a lot of spaghetti in the wall, feeling equally parts like I was the unpopular girl at the party and no one asked me to dance and no one asked me if I knew how to dance. That's what publishing felt like to me. And then sometimes feeling like I was trying to scale like a stone castle wall with a like stilettos and a long manicure and just getting nowhere. My husband and my husband's encouragement to just try one more time and the incredible generosity of Pine and Gilmore to introduce me to Neil at Vera Kohler was really what led to the publishing of the Creativity Leap. And then do you want me to get into how I met you, or?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, let's do that because that conversation I will never forget. So we have a good friend in common, an amazing developmental editor named Danielle Goodman. And Danielle reached out to me way back in the day in SF because I was like her senior colleague right, like I was a little more in the business, I was a little like I played a little higher, but Danielle has always been a lovely human and we're a little different. She's like a little more soft than me, I'm a little more commercial than her, like we. We vary in terms of who we work with, but Danielle does a lot of work with Barrett Kohler and so I think Danielle edited the creativity leap right.

Speaker 1:

So let me interject this part of the story. So Bear Kohler used to do their author days in person. They would file their authors to meet in person and I had submitted my draft and it was time for my author day and I suspected that it was going to be like drinking from a fire hydrant. The feedback, because I wrote the book in four months in the dark, had no idea what to expect I get there. And it was a ton of feedback Cause I I wrote the book in four months in the dark, had no idea what to expect I get there. And it was a ton of feedback and I was close to tears by the end of the afternoon and Neil could tell I was a little fragile.

Speaker 1:

He said, listen, a lot of the time when our authors at this stage they had like turnaround, in six weeks, the final version and I had a company to build and run and clients and all that. And he said, usually at this point we have a group of developmental editors that we often call upon to bring in and work with authors at this stage and we have an incredible woman named Danielle Goodman and I said, yes, please, okay, let me talk to Danielle and you know, let me talk to Danielle, and Danielle I still I call her a writer's Sherpa because she, through that very sensitive chapter of finishing the book, she just knew how to plant the well-planted question and constructive critique and suggested maybe we reorg in XYZ way and she really helped to get the creativity leap all over the finish line. So after the creativity leap was that for maybe two years I was talking to Danielle. I'm ready to write another book and this is when, when you come in, Meghan, you can maybe tell the story of our first meeting.

Speaker 2:

I can feel that into a pretty good story. So and Daniel sent me a couple clients and you know I send clients to Danielle as well and because that's the greatest part about having colleagues and like I should do an entire podcast about wrapping your mind around that there's no competition, because I have a client I think you know, ruchika, which is called uncompete about this whole thing.

Speaker 2:

Actually, I should get her on the podcast, ruchika. Ruchika is writing a book called Uncompete about this whole thing. Actually, I should get her on the podcast too. Anyway, so there's this idea out there that I think I'm starting to subscribe to. It's taking me a while to detach from the conventional idea of like competition is terrible, they're all your enemies. But like it's like. No, let's collaborate because we're all different. We're all different flavors. Everybody it's like therapy, right? Everyone needs their own therapist that they can hear from. Sometimes it takes you a couple of therapists to land on the right one Same thing with editorial help. So, you know, danielle sent me Natalie.

Speaker 2:

And you know, whenever I'm talking to an author that's had a previous book and I have this very conversation last week with a potential author I look up how many copies they've sold, because that is what a publisher is going to look at, because the general idea is that second books and this is why it's so important to publish your first book well, whether that's self, whether it's traditional, whether it's hybrid, whatever it is, because they're going to look at your previous sales and when they do that, they're looking because tends to be the sequel.

Speaker 2:

Books are not fast and furious and furious. Right, the sequels are never as good as movie number one. There's some exceptions, but for the most part, like book have number one has to do well in order for book number two to do well. So that's kind of, you know, throwing out your compendium because it is academic, it's kind of in its I mean, I don't think you even cite it in your books by page, but like it's a total, like a one off to me, like we have this other book Great, and when we have to sell that. So you, you came on the call and you were very proud of your sales numbers and I thought they were not great and I told you that because I'm not going to sugarcoat it because they weren't good. I don't think they were bad, you know, it's not like you sold the.

Speaker 1:

They weren't great, though they were not great Exceptional. No.

Speaker 2:

And and that's what we need them to be exceptional. And I told you that you had to grow your platform and I I have never, like I didn't intend to drop the mic on that conversation, but that was the response I got on the internet.

Speaker 1:

That's actually the how I remember so what had happened was I show up to the call, very proud of of myself, that I worked with danielle to develop an annotated it was like 21 pages was this annotated outline of this next book concept that I had? That was going to be a build on the creativity leap and I'm explaining why I think this is so great. I'm asking you questions about how you work with authors and you're answering my questions and then you say you know that's all great, but I don't think you're ready to write this book. And I was like, excuse me, you're like I don't think this is the book that you're going to write next. I don't think you're ready to write your next book. And I said what do you mean? I was a little taken aback and you basically explained to me that because I had also shared with you that my goal this time around for the third rodeo having gotten an academic publisher and then Barrett Kohler which is not shabby, it's a really there's a reputable small publisher, yep, it's a reputable small publisher and it's distributed by Penguin Random House. So it's got, you know, it's bona fides.

Speaker 1:

And my goal was to sign with a major, you know, one of the top three to five publishing houses and because that was my goal. You were like, sweetie, this ain't going to get it, and you began to explain why. But your reason for why had nothing to do with my ideas, had nothing to do with my content, had nothing to do with how good or bad a writer I am. I think I'm a pretty good writer, but you know there had nothing to do with that. You honed in on the fact that the way I'm going to get the kind of book deal that I desired was by having a substantial platform. And as you were talking even though I didn't want to hear that because I had been through this twice I knew you were not wrong. I knew that in order for a major publisher to give you a decent deal, they need to be able to make their money back. And the way they're going to make their money back is you really got to sell the book through your platform. So, begrudgingly, I realized you were right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and that's the hard thing. I mean, that's why I don't have 200 of those calls a year like I used to, right, because it's like I don't like delivering that, like it's not, it's not my favorite thing to do, but it seems like it's something that that is the number one dream killer and dream maker, right, this platform. So let's go into that because I think that's an interesting thing. How did you? Obviously we kind of heard how you reacted, right, you were kind of like oh, this is my medicine and I've got to take it. Doesn't taste good and it's icky and I don't like it, but man do, I know it's, I have to do it. So, with that like you know, nasty cough syrup of a call, what did you do next? What is the action you took as the result of that conversation?

Speaker 1:

Well, you know, I have this principle that I've written about, that I talked about, called your inventory of courage, and the inventory of courage that we each have is evidence, it's data points in our lives of hard, challenging times that we've been through, that because of that we're able to do the next thing, the next thing, and so I've shared in other forms that my inventory of courage goes all the way back to being six years old in public school in Philly and being bullied by a little girl who, through my adult eyes, I realized was much less fortunate than was I. So of course, she hated my guts because I smell like Jergens lotion and my hair was brushed and combed and I had a nice freshly packed lunch every day. And one day she budged in front of me in the school line and I tapped her on the shoulder politely and said, excuse me, you busted in front of me and she's like what you gonna do? Kick my butt and turn her back on me. And I was like, hmm, like went to the back of the line, took a ready start and kicked her in the butt and she fell forward and she looked at me like I was crazy and she never bothered me again, but that was the seed of my inventory of courage, which I literally I can trace that to all the other leaps and things I've done.

Speaker 1:

So when, after that call the part of my inventory of courage file cabinet I went back to was completing a PhD while working full time, and what I knew to be true by having done that experience and project was that I got very good at remaining humble and open to taking the feedback, because I constantly said to myself what is my goal? My goal is to earn this PhD within four years while working full-time and in order to do that, the people who are giving this feedback they have PhDs. I don't. So I decided I'm going to take their instruction and the way you finish any big, audacious, hairy project is you unpack it, you do it step by step and bit by bit and you revise and go back. So when you told me that, I sat with it and I realized, because of the other two book publishing experiences I went through, you were speaking the truth. You knew what you were talking about, but I also knew I couldn't get to where I wanted to go by myself.

Speaker 1:

So at the time, you were offering this platform builders program and I decided to invest in.

Speaker 1:

I call it an investment because it wasn't cheap, and I think that's another thing that we have to understand when we're trying to do make big moves in our, in our lives, right, sometimes it's gonna take an investment of time, sometimes it's gonna take an investment of money, sometimes it's gonna be a combination, and you've gotta decide, after you collect your data, talk to a range of people, do your fact checking and gut checking that this is what I'm going to do, why and if it makes sense for you, why you're going to do it.

Speaker 1:

It's a lot easier to do it. So I ended up going through your platform builders program and that was just a first of all. It was community of other aspiring authors and it was a lot of guest speakers and templates and inspiration of ideas of basically how I could get a bit more prolific on social media and use my voice in different ways and be a bit more intentional. A lot more intentional, a lot more strategic about how I was doing that. And so, slowly but surely, my platform grew, my social following grew and that was the big, you know, purpose and point of doing that program.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and that I mean that was the intent of it, right, and it's like the only reason I stopped was because, only, I think there were like 60 people in it in the end over the time that I ran it and only two people succeeded and I was like I just don't like that for myself, and I think there were like 60 people in it in the end over the time that I ran it and only two people succeeded and I was like I just don't like that for myself and I think that's because the, the growth is just so big and I don't want to say that, to say it's not possible, because obviously it is.

Speaker 2:

Actually there was more success stories than that. It. It was like you, nick, erica, so like at least three, but like the thing is is that I would, uh, what I've seen is that and I think you mirror this perfectly is that you've kind of got to wrap your mind and your heart around it and be willing to put yourself out there in all the ways that you're going to put yourself out there and figure it out for yourself. And there's like no one right way, there's no magic number, it just is sort of going to evolve. And I hate using the word surface as a verb, but man, is it accurate?

Speaker 2:

is it is going to surface itself out, and a big thing for you, I think, was that keynote speaking right and recently we had a chat about podcasts completely offline, where you were talking to me about how you killed off a part of your business Just like I kind of killed off a part of my business that, even though it was lucrative, you're like I don't like it, which is another reason why I did the platform builders program. I ended it. I'll figure out something else for y'all that need it, cause obviously you're still out there, but uh, but yeah, so like for you, that keynote speaking was really where your heart was at. So how did you build that up? How did you become like one of the top 50 global keynote speakers?

Speaker 1:

You know, I think that I was fastidious. I think that I said yes to everything in the beginning and and keep in mind I knew how to speak very well because I used to speak in front of some of the most uncourageable personalities ever undergraduate students and then later graduate students. They could smell blood a mile away. But teaching is different than speaking. But I had that confidence and I knew within me that something in me came alive. When I speak, it's just something that I believe I am gifted at, I really enjoy and it seems to have a really positive impact on people and on teams and organizations. So part of what was happening was it was just fun for me, it didn't feel like work. I also had built up from a point where I wouldn't. I wasn't getting paid at all, so I would get paid a couple thousand dollars and or I would just ask for a testimonial and some of the video, to the point where I actually it was over COVID. I was um going to be doing a virtual keynote and the client mistakenly sent me um the invoice for a different speaker, and this different speaker happened to be male, also happened to have a PhD, and this person was getting paid 3X what I had asked for. And when I saw that, I remember I physically sank in my chair, my eyes brimmed with tears and I was just beating myself up. I was like oh my gosh, oh my gosh. And the next day and I didn't say anything to the client because I honored the contract I took it as a blessing from God that somehow I saw what my peers are getting and the next day I doubled my fees and that was. That was another hurdle just having the confidence to really know your value and speak it out loud and not budge. So I think it was. It was just steadiness, it was just consistency. It was a real joy that I have for the craft of speaking and learning about the business of speaking, and I credit Josh Linkner, who is one of the co-founders of a speaking community called Impact 11, where I learned a lot about the business of speaking and having your assets together in a speaker reel.

Speaker 1:

There's so many people say, oh, I'm going to be speaker because I have had this incredible life in corporate or because I I climbed this X mountain or you know, if you want to speak, people need evidence of how you speak. So you need to have things like a speaker reel, which seems obvious, but so many people skip that part, you know. So I, I I did my reps and I did my reps and I wasn't afraid to put out stuff that I knew I didn't have the budget that other people had, or I didn't. It wasn't as polished and fancy-spancy, but it was better than what I had a month ago. I tried that.

Speaker 1:

So the work of design thinking has really helped me to embrace prototyping and experimentation and not letting perfection be the enemy of design. Thinking has really helped me to embrace prototyping and experimentation and not letting perfection be the enemy of good. So the speaking fortunately for me really grew because A I think my content is really great. It's content that really gives value to people. It helps people to reframe, to think in new ways. My mission in my work is to change lives with ideas and I work really hard to make sure that I am delivering original content framed in unique ways, and that I am always adding value to people in the way they're thinking, in the way they're feeling, in the way that they're working.

Speaker 2:

I think that's so important because a lot of times, you know I mean, you were in that platform builders group for a while Like, when authors come to me, they're thinking me, me, me, I want to be a speaker, I want to be on stages they're not thinking about a lot of the times, the readers or the people they're selling to, or any of that kind of stuff. They're not really empathizing with the people in the audience in a way that you kind of have to in order to be good at anything right, like to be a good author, to be a good speaker, to be good at entrepreneur, like you have to really be in love with your audience and want to help them. I mean that's important.

Speaker 1:

Yes, you do, because, just like my 19, 20-year students could could smell blood a mile away audiences. Or sometimes people are there because their boss is making them go or because they're they're ticking off a credit for, for executive learning, or you know it's a great resort and it's going to be a little time out of the office, you know? Whatever I mean, let's be real. There's a lot of reasons why people are at conferences. So when I show up, I am showing up genuinely enthusiastic and excited about these ideas that I believe will help to change their lives and um, and that that will either come through or it won't. So I've got to. I've got to feel it first.

Speaker 2:

I love that. That makes so much sense. So I've got to, I've got to feel it first. I love that I think so much sense Because I do think people feel the people consciously or unconsciously snuff out a lack of integrity, and they also feel authenticity yeah right, you can know something's off. And then also they were like, oh no, that bitch just telling the truth.

Speaker 1:

And then also they were like, oh no, that bitch just telling the truth. It's true and you know, to that point I want to share it. I, I've learned a lot about how I show up authentically, in a way that has shifted the way I uh speak. It's shifted, shifted and certainly what I share more about in, um, my newest book, move, think, rest, even though I it was dropping and definitely more in creativity. You know, when I was an academic, when I was a professor, to be honest, I often found academic writing to be really formulaic. Like if you're trying to get published in an academic journal, there's pretty much a structure that you have to follow right and once you figure out the formula and if you've got great co-authors and your research is tight, you know, bless, hopefully you'll get published.

Speaker 1:

But there's a part of me that was always like standing against those boundaries and what I've learned, especially in the past two years, that I was afraid to do, I'd say the first five years of really building figurine thinking. I was afraid to really share a bit more about who I am as a person because I want it so badly for people to take creativity seriously. I knew, coming in, that I was already at a deficit because people think, oh, what is this creativity stuff? We care about the ROI and efficiencies and productivity. What do I need? This is going to be about picking up a paintbrush. So I already knew that I had to help people suspend judgment, and so I spent so much time showing the data and the research and case stories that I was leaving out the part of me and my work that's been that has shifted and changed because of the way I think about creativity, toggling between wonder and rigor to solve problems.

Speaker 1:

And it wasn't until I started dripping in every now and then, like the story I shared about being bullied when I was six years old and that inventory of courage concept and how that relates to leadership and being transparent in the way that we manage and lead, for example.

Speaker 1:

Or my being a lifelong dancer and how studying ballroom dance has taught me actually the leadership principle of how important it is to follow that the best leaders actually know how to follow really well. Or me being a novice open water swimmer and how life-changing that has been Every time I integrate more of who I am in my personality. The comments I'll get afterward off stage are that part when you talked about being 19 or that part when you talked about, you know, getting overwhelmed trying to finish your PhD, and then, because I'm personable, I'm relatable, and then that draws them into the statistics and the data and the frameworks and the theory, and so that's been a game changer for me. It's been a huge learning and I definitely have integrated a lot more of me and my personality into move, think, breast Although people definitely get a sense of me in terms of my references, how I grew up and where I grew up and that sort of thing in the creativity week.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think too, like there's a different kind of authority that happens when you share personal anecdotes like that and I think a lot of time as women or authors that I work with that are from marginalized identities and communities like they think they have to bring all the stats to be taken seriously, when most of the time it's actually that like super. I remember working with a client once where she had a really big fan base and I got to hang out with her fans and I accidentally her book wasn't out yet, the book deal wasn't even announced yet, and I actually dropped something that ended up in her book eventually. But I dropped something about her in private conversation and you would have thought that I talked about like Taylor Swift being engaged, like that video, and I was like Whoa, and I was like, oh right, they're fans.

Speaker 1:

I am group here.

Speaker 2:

They have bought hook line and sinker into her projects, into her coaching, into whatever. But they also like we care about her, they think they have a parasocial relationship with her and like that's really interesting, right, and it's kind of what we want. We want people like that Stands to some degree right, like it's like you want these people around you because those are the people that, like, are gonna be evangelists for you and market for you, just all on their own. So Meghan, I have a funny.

Speaker 1:

oh sorry, hold your question. I have a funny anecdote. I think you were part of this moment. Do you remember when I wrote that essay, why I Love Getting Older? And do you remember the question I asked you? No, okay.

Speaker 2:

So I remember nothing.

Speaker 1:

Called why I Love Getting Older. It's published in Katie Couric Media and there's a line in the essay and I do love, I love getting older and I talk about why I have my theories about the 20s, the 30s, the 40s I'm now 55. And there's a part it's like one the line it said and sex is better too. And I remember that I I talked to my business coach at the time, ali Caravella, and I said do you think I should keep the line about sex is better? And she said uh, natalie, um, I think they know that you probably have sex. They probably hope you have great sex. Anyone's reading this. It's probably okay that you probably have sex. They probably hope you have great sex. Anyone who's reading this. It's probably okay that you are acknowledging that as you've gotten older, sex has gotten better. But it was so fun. I thought I asked you that too. Maybe I did. But it's so funny how now it's like duh A, it's true for me, and B like and, but but where I was at that point I was like is that?

Speaker 2:

okay to say you know.

Speaker 1:

So it's funny how we shift and evolve in our comfort level, with being transparent and an honest and open about who we are and where we are.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think that's really important. But let's talk about my next question was about move, think, rest. We can circle back to that. So how does the framework in the book, the move think rust framework? How do you think that would help the entrepreneurs and experts that are listening to this podcast and they want a book deal in their future? But they might need to grow their business, they might need to grow their platform, they might need to put on their big girl pants. Like, how do you think that could apply? Like where, where in the book would you tell them to go? Like, obviously they're going to buy, we're going to include some pre-order bonuses for you all in the show notes, but like, how would you apply that if you had like fairy godmother vibes and you could just bestow it on everyone listening?

Speaker 1:

you know me especially as someone who feels this angst about wanting to get published. How does how the principles of think-rest apply? Okay, great. So the reason I wrote move-think-rest is because I was observing people experiencing a slow death at work, and a slow death either because they felt confined, like literally physically in a cubicle, or because they didn't feel seen or heard, and for me, it all came back to not having the opportunity to build out their creative capacity as an individual, as teams, as organizations, and as someone who's a lifelong dancer and then became new to open swimming, my first data point was myself and I just started to observe all the life lessons. I was transferring over from a ballroom lesson where my ballroom dance instructor, nodari, who's from Azerbaijan, would say something like don't rush, you're not late, and I'd be like, oh my God, this is like my day.

Speaker 1:

I've been, I've been full of of worry Like someone's going to beat me to it which I want to go back to our competition about. Is there competition? I agree I don't believe there is competition, but I constantly have to talk myself down from the tower and remind myself of that. But or you know life lessons from open water swimming, or when I allow myself to mark into my calendar that three Fridays from now I am going to have no calls and just have a three-hour hike walk in the woods, whatever it is. I was realizing rejuvenation was happening, more inspired ideas, and I just started reading more about the neuroscience of everything from intuition, the vagus nerve, rest, movement. But the thing is people were talking about it in all sorts of siloed ways, and so the book offers a human-centered operating system to flourish, and it's a book that is timely for three major reasons.

Speaker 1:

Number one unprecedented burnout. That to my earlier point we're dying a slow death. The statistics on burnout are really staggering, something like I think the 2024 numbers were like 78% of Americans are reporting burnout, self-reporting burnout. The second reason why something like a human centered operating system, like motor I call it motor, mtr move, think, rest matters is because we have new rules for remote work. And when we have new rules for remote work. A big challenge is for the managers and the organizational culture to get their collective heads wrapped around a new demand on how we work A younger group of adults who has different sets of expectations about what work culture looks like. A lot of smart young people who have options. The third reason why the book matters right now is because of ubiquitous technology.

Speaker 1:

I'm a pragmatic optimist about the technology. I believe that it really can help us to amplify what makes us uniquely human, because it really can be our co-instigator, our co-creator, and because we can get to answer somewhere quickly. It allows time for more spaciousness to dwell in the liminal space, which is where the imagination flourishes. So for anyone who is feeling stuck, anyone who is feeling at a point where they just again this eggs of wanting something to happen, it's got to feel and sound very counterintuitive, but we have to drop into our bodies and we have to design space and time to what I call cultivate instead of focusing on productivity. And if I could just put a bow on it by explaining what I mean by that, the ways we think about productivity are a relic of the first industrial revolution. It actually doesn't make sense anymore. Productivity. Is this either, or paradigm Productivity factors in things like we measure what we can see. We focus on outputs. It's efficiencies based. It also has kind of this scarcity model, this micromanagement model of leadership.

Speaker 1:

But what I started observing is when I was doing this research pre-industrial revolution, most of the economies around the world were agrarian-based economies. Now I'm not romanticizing working on the farm If you want to talk about VUCA environments that are volatile, uncertain, complex and ambiguous you try earning your living through farming. It's darn hard. However, there's something to extrapolate from the ways that people were living, the way society was running, which was that in an agrarian-based economy, cultivation is the MO and when we're cultivating it's a both and model Cultivation values, the solo practitioner and the collective Cultivation values, what's happening on the visible realm, what we can see and measure and track, and what's happening through dormancy and dormant periods and cultivation values quick spurts of growth and slow. And so that's what I've interwoven into this book as well is to give people practical tactical ways. At the end of each chapter has reflection questions and exercises for individuals, for teams and for organizations to think about how they can incorporate more of that both and cultivating work model.

Speaker 2:

I love that. I love that because I think what's so important about that? I mean, I had a big spurt of growth in my business in 2021. And I remember having a accountability partner that would keep me accountable to 36 hours of spare, like not working time, and that was hard to get to in a week. In a week that was hard, hard to get Awesome.

Speaker 1:

That's so wonderful though.

Speaker 2:

But that wasn't enough. 36 hours, are you kidding? No, but think about how, how you don't do that I know, but like I thought that was ridiculous, I was like no, no, I need like a hundred hours, no, uh, but seriously, like when you're stepping up, like you have to make space, like you're gonna grow your business, your audience, any of that and you books are one of those secret things like a business where it's personal growth journey and disguise like you got to grow space or grow money to buy space right, Like all of that.

Speaker 2:

So it's just really important and I think your book's going to be really helpful for those people who want to create said space and be more creative and do all these other things.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and it was important for me to lay out a map I call it a compass, really because you really need to know what your true north is.

Speaker 1:

I don't even know if roadmaps make sense anymore, because the dynamics of our environments are changing so rapidly and quickly all the time. But it was important to also think about how does move, think, rest apply to teams, how does it apply at an organizational level? Because people are dying a slow death and because work is changing, the nature of work is changing so much and we can automate so much that in the future of work, the companies and organizations that are going to be able to attract and retain the best talent will be the ones that value the human connection, will be the ones that value what I call inside-out work, that are curious about what makes you tick as a person, that say, yes, the technology can do X, y, z, but because because of that, now we have more time for eyeball to eyeball collaboration, in touch in person, events are going to become premium, because we will crave needing to connect and and all the juicy bits of serendipity that happen when we can be um in closer touch with each other I agree.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think that. I think that's really important. I think people like the farming analogy really makes sense to me, because my grandparents were farmers and then I'm a gardener and that's how gardening happens, right? It's like one day they're all dormant. Next day I walk outside and I'm like, oh shit, there's a lot of stuff. Now, right, I'm fighting a squirrel. Right now I'm fighting a squirrel in my garden who's getting way too cocky and way too comfortable and just because we can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't mean that it's not real.

Speaker 1:

It doesn't mean that it doesn't matter. And I think that's also a message for your listeners, your followers, who are in this angst position. You know, when I was growing up, my mother used to have a lot of wise statements to us as teenagers, which just made clearer sense the older I got. But she would say when you don't know what to do, don't do anything yet because, unbeknownst to you, there are constantly variables shifting and rearranging that are going to have an impact on the fill in the blank issue that you're trying to work through. So just wait and something will emerge, something will surface, something will become clear to you about the next direction or tack that you should take no, that's 100.

Speaker 2:

Like sometimes, when we have proposals circling this back to like publishing process, we'll have proposals that just don't work. Our biggest platformed author last year didn't get a book deal and I was like well, and he was like what do I do? What do I do? And I was like you do nothing because the universe has given you a clear message that this is not the time for this, this is not the book for you. I don't know how this is gonna pan out for you. Like I'm not god unfortunately it'd be kind of cool if I was but like I'm not not giving that power. They just gave me the power to like attract dogs and like write books, and so that's my power. So like that's what I'm doing, but like sometimes it all makes sense, you know it. Just it ends up working out for the best and that's it's like the timing is all perfect, so that's a great question.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so that circles me back. I have two more questions for you. So, because you've had two different books out in the world, I usually ask my authors who come on what they learned through the publishing process, but I think I'd like for you to talk about your two, like more trade books, individually. So what is something that you learned from the creativity leap that you think other like in you know, aspiring authors would benefit from?

Speaker 1:

know aspiring authors would benefit from. Um, I learned that ideas that I at one point were first of all I just at first, at one point I was afraid to say out loud and then increasingly got courageous enough to share out, from a stage which then led to people to say where can I read more about this? What I learned through the process of writing the Creativity Leap is that those intuitive nudges of ideas that might seem harebrained at first and not make sense to other people keep poking at them, keep exploring them, keep giving them life. And so the idea that is very prominent in the Creativity Leap that I used to be nervous about saying out loud when I was in these C-suite meetings, either after having delivered a facilitation or a keynote, or I was consulting more than I would say at the end of the meeting. You know, there is this other work that I've been doing with other clients, which wasn't really true yet, about the role of wonder in strategy, and I would just kind of pause and just wait for the reaction and because I thought I'd be laughed out of these hollowed Fortune 500 halls. But people would soften, they would kind of adjust their seats, they'd lean in, they'd be like what do you mean by that? And that gave me the courage to start building on it, because I was just testing out. Does this sound like like woo, woo and crazy to people, or is this something they're craving? And the answer was they want to. They want another complimentary way to think about strategy, to think about their work and about how they can identify new opportunities in the marketplace.

Speaker 1:

So that's what I learned from. I mean there's so much I learned from writing. I mean there's so much I learned from writing the creativity, but it was a lot. But when I think about the content of what's in there and it's also because, Meghan, I have received like photographs of like dog-eared corners of the book and highlights of the book and emails from people who say this book has changed my life. Or I keep going back to this book Like that is high praise. You know, something that was just in your noggin that you thought was maybe a little harebrained idea, but let's, let's see where it might go. Keep following the breadcrumbs.

Speaker 2:

I think people, too, are afraid to put their ideas out there because they feel like they're going to get stolen or all of that. And I'm like no one can steal what is intuitively meant for you, right? Like people can rip off your shit, that's going to happen, but like they're going to rip it off.

Speaker 1:

But I'm glad you brought that up because in the beginning of our conversation you talked about you now realize there's no such thing as competition, and I agree with you. And the first time I heard that concept was I was reading Essence magazine. It was the mid nineties and it was an interview with the R&B singer India. I read and at one point she goes yeah, I don't believe it. No, I'm paraphrasing her, I don't believe in competition. There's eight notes in an octave. There's my. This is a training that I have, this is a training that you have. There's my God-given talent, there's your God-given talent. I can't do what you would do with that and you can't do what I would do with that. And I was like whoa, mind blown and I've never forgotten Now.

Speaker 1:

Have I struggled at various, multiple times with that notion? Absolutely, but the more I let go, the more I invite people in, the more I just put it out there. Have I been ripped off? Absolutely. Have people copied what I'm doing? Sure, they have, and at the same time, they're not going to deliver it or frame it in the way that I do. And I also am a fervent believer that anything that is meant for me is mine. There is nothing that anyone can do to slow it down or speed it up, and that that is the case for you as well. It is meant for you as yours. There's nothing that anyone can do to slow it down or speed it up, so it's all good.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's all like I. I believe in that kind of divine, whatever timing as well, whether it's coincidence, whether it's coincidence, whether it's simulation, whether the simulation idea is so funny to me. But whether it's a simulation, whether it's divine timing, whether it's a god up there, I don't know. When I was 14, I was like it can't be one person, it's got to be like a council or a board or something. But I'm still like dude, if I'm right about that, kudos to 14 year old me. Um, okay, so then let's talk about move, think rest. So that book is not out yet when we're recording this. It's going to be out september. It's going to come out literally the day after this podcast goes live. Let's focus on because we haven't talked about our work together on your proposal, because that's what we did with Move, think Rest. What did you learn during that process that maybe you hadn't learned in the creativity leap process?

Speaker 1:

Oh, my gosh. I actually wrote about this in my I just I submitted my acknowledgements pages for Move, think, rest and I gave you and Blair big props. And one of the things I said is that I learned that riding can be a team sport, and what I mean by that is I always thought that riding was super solo and solitary, but I realized it's more like an individual sport. So, for example, I ran track in high school. I never swam competitively, but I swim a lot now. And for those individual sports, although the athlete shows up singularly by themselves, there are a host of people who got them to where they are, who are coaches and encouragers and carpool drivers and all the things that help them to show up there.

Speaker 1:

And what I learned the way I wrote move, think rest this time was so different than the way I wrote the creativity number one. I'm older and wiser, so I'm getting better at knowing what my lane is and hiring people who are excellent at what they do. So I I don't know publishing, so I hired you guys to help me write the book proposal. So you guys, first of all, what a luxury to be like, interviewed once a week about what do you think about this, natalie?

Speaker 1:

what are your ideas about this? And these people like listening, recording, typing, like yes, you know, I think this and I think that and this is why this matters. And then it like coming together beautifully in this book proposal. Again an investment, but well worth it because that led to having, for the first time in my life and career, literary agents. So I work with Steve Troha and Jan Balmer of Folio Lit and they are amazing, like again the scaffolding having these additional allies and advocates.

Speaker 1:

I hired back Danielle Goodman, this time at the beginning of the writing process, to help me think through the way I was structuring the book, to help me think through where I should bring in a different sort of example, her encouragement to bring in more of who I am personally into the book. I hired a research assistant this time, go think, go who to thunk it. You know An incredible young woman named Marie Ellen who was my research assistant, who was like this is so smart and clever, passionate about the topic, passionate about my work and just like got into the secondary research and the academic journals and the popular culture journals. That again created the scaffolding for my ideas and I listened to my husband, john, who said, babe, I say why don't you give yourself a writing retreat? Now I understand I write about retreating all the time, but I was like I don't know. I have a fine home office, I'm okay. He's like maybe give it some thought. I was like okay. So this was a really incredible, like spiritual experience, because I the first thing I did is I blocked off two weeks in May of 2024, no keynotes, no meetings, no calls. The second thing I and I had no idea where I would go. The second thing I did was I texted seven different friends and I said, hey, I'm going on a writing retreat from May the 12th until May the 28th and I'm envisioning myself writing every morning from 8 AM to 2 PM and being someplace warm, and when I sign off my laptop, I can walk outside and put my feet into turquoise water. Does anyone have any ideas about where I should go, where I should look? And one of those friends, within 40 minutes, texted me back and said my beachside condo in miami. I was like, yes, please, thank you. So that was my friend, ivy silver, who leased to me at a really incredible rate her beautiful, beautiful, peaceful beachside condo in Miami.

Speaker 1:

And every day I wrote, even sometimes I wanted to pull out my eyelashes instead, but I sat there and I wrote and whatever came out came out, and then I would edit and write, and write, and then I would take. I would do a lot of dictating of my ideas by walking along the beach. I swam every day, I took Cubano salsa lessons I mean, it was just the best. So I just learned how to take care of myself and my ideas very differently. I learned how to scaffold my work and my process with people who were supportive, who knew what the heck they were doing, and I and I and it was funny, I started with one editor, dan sorry, I forgot Dan's last name. He was great. And then, because of some changes that had shut, I landed with Diana Venemiglia, who is incredible. So I was really blessed and fortunate and, you know, just chose to like lean into the wind and learn and rest. And, you know, step by step, just take it day by day.

Speaker 2:

I love that. I love that so much. Okay, one last question for you. I lied, I said two questions and now I have another question. If you imagine, you know the listeners to to this, their fellow entrepreneurs, their fellow experts. They want a book deal. As the one who's been there, done that and and been very successful so far, you know three books that you've authored or edited. What is the number one piece of advice you would give somebody if you were talking girlfriend to girlfriend?

Speaker 1:

I think it would be kind of build on, listen to advice and hire, help. You know, understand what your gaps are and hire the people who can supplement that, whether it was at the early stage, when I first started working with you, Meghan, where I didn't really know what publishers wanted and to get the kind of book deal I wanted to get, and how do I go about building a platform, you know, supplementing yourself with good advisors and I know this sounds like a pun, but move, think and rest Like you got to take care of yourself. You got to supplement the writing that your writing will be better. You'll just come up with, like the most more interesting ideas and synthesis and connection when you step away and you allow yourself just to be more fully human and then get back into it.

Speaker 2:

I love that. I think everybody should do that. I think that's such a good. There's a lot of evidence right now that supports like working for 45 minutes, moving for five minutes, and my friend got a standing desk and she was like I hurt and I was like that's because you're not supposed to stand all day either it should be a whole mix.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, john Medina, he's a neuroscientist out in Seattle. I read on his work and cited him, but he has these series of books called Brain Rules for Work and he talks about how really we should be working in 30 to 40 minute increments of time, getting up and moving. The ideal workplace should have some sort of gymnasium or movement environment in the center, in the core of the building, to kind of attract people through there. So there's a lot of smart people who've done the research that really shows we will flourish and work more efficiently, be more productive, more optimally, if we tap into how we feel, be more reflective, exercise, sweat, breathe, all those things.

Speaker 2:

I love it. I love it so much. Thank you for justifying my choice yesterday to go golfing. Yeah, that's good. It's all good. It's all good, all right. So move thing. Crust comes out September 2nd 2025. Dr Natalie Nixon, thank you so much for coming on the pod and answering your questions, as always. Listeners, thank you for listening. You can leave me a voicemail it's in the show notes along with the link to pre-order and also get on Natalie's amazing free newsletter, which shares all her tips on creativity and the best productivity for you. Let her be your teacher. She's amazing. All right, thank you again, natalie, and cheers to your success. Everyone Bye. Thanks for tuning into the kind of big book deal podcast. Want to see where you're at on your book journey? Check out my free quiz at meghanstevensoncom forward slash quiz. That's M E G H A N S T E V E N S O Ncom forward slash quiz. See you next time.