Kind Of A Big Book Deal

Episode 22 - From Corporate Darling to Entrepreneurial Author with Jamie Trull

• Meghan Stevenson

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What if the financial system you’ve been told to follow is actually holding your business back? In this episode, host Meghan Stevenson sits down with CPA and profit strategist Jamie Trull to talk about building businesses that thrive, not just survive. Jamie shares her journey from corporate life at Coca-Cola to creating a booming financial education platform that guided thousands of small business owners through the uncertainty of COVID.

Listeners will discover why popular frameworks like Profit First often fall short for entrepreneurs earning beyond $200K, and how Jamie’s new book Hidden Profit offers a smarter, more adaptable approach to managing money. She also reveals the power of building genuine community and how showing up with service first leads to long-term loyalty and growth.

If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by spreadsheets or wondered how to scale your business without losing yourself in the process, Jamie’s insights will help you rethink profit, success, and what’s truly possible.

This week’s guest is Jamie Trull. Jamie Trull, CPA, is a Financial Literacy Coach and Profit Strategist dedicated to empowering small business owners to maximize profitability and grow sustainably. With a background as a Finance Leader at Coca-Cola, Jamie transitioned from the corporate world to serve women-owned businesses as a Virtual CFO. Observing a critical gap in accessible financial resources for small business owners, she shifted her focus to financial education, using her CPA designation to break down complex financial topics into easy-to-understand strategies. Jamie has built a following of over 100,000 small business owners on YouTube and social media, where her guidance helps entrepreneurs achieve strategic growth and retain more profit. Her upcoming book, Hidden Profit, will be published by Simon & Schuster in October 2025, providing readers with essential tools to unlock their businesses’ financial potential.


Find Jamie on YouTube - https://youtube.com/jamietrull

Preorder Jamie’s new book, Hidden Profit, and receive $300+ in free gifts! Find more information and links to preorder the book at https://jamietrull.com/book.


Episode Highlights:

(2:28) Jamie’s origin story: corporate to entrepreneur

(4:41) Pivoting during COVID and rapid growth

(9:58) Why Profit First isn’t enough for scaling

(14:26) Building a 41K-member Facebook community

(19:08) Navigating the book proposal process

(23:21) Landing a Simon & Schuster book deal

(27:10) The hardest part of writing a book

(30:28) Redefining success beyond sales numbers

(36:07) Patience, payoff, and the publishing journey

(42:02) What entrepreneurs need to know about money

(47:06) Outro


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Have a great idea for a book but don't know where to start?MeghanStevenson.com/quiz


Traditional publishing expert Meghan Stevenson blasts open the gates of the “Big 5” – Penguin Random House, Simon & Schuster, HarperCollins, Hachette, and Macmillan – to share what every entrepreneur and expert needs to know about landing a book deal.

In episodes released every other Monday, Meghan shares wisdom and stories from 20+ years in publishing as well as interviews with authors, literary agents, and editors. She also answers questions from listeners like you.

Whether you are an experienced entrepreneur with an empire, or are just starting out – this podcast will help you understand what you need to do in order to turn your dream of being a bestselling author into real life.

Jamie Trull:

There 's a lot more you need in order to meet your goals as an entrepreneur and grow your business. And I do think sometimes profit first actually can shoot yourself in the foot a little bit if you don't know if you're just cutting expenses to cut expenses. What if those expenses were actually generating you a heck of a lot more income, right? So it doesn't go into that level of discernment. And I really trust people to discern for themselves.

Meghan Stevenson:

Welcome to the kind of a big book deal podcast where entrepreneurs come to learn about traditional publishing. I'm your host, Meghan Stevenson. After working as an editor for two of the biggest traditional publishers, I started my own business helping entrepreneurs become authors. To date, my clients have earned over $5 million from publishers like Penguin Random House, Simon Schuster, and Harper Collins. In these podcast episodes, I've blast open the well-kept gates to traditional publishing. I'll explain what every entrepreneur needs to know about landing a book deal without losing your mind. I'm going to share stories, answer your questions, interview the successful authors I've worked with, and probably say platform more than a tech pro. So if you dream of landing on a bestseller list but have no idea how, this is the podcast for you, and I am so, so glad you're here. This week I'm so excited to bring you one of what I'm calling the class of 2025, which is my authors that have books coming out in 2025. Miss Jamie Troll. Jamie Troll is the coolest CPA I have ever met in my life. Uh she is a financial literary coach and a profit strategist, and she has made me feel inspired and excited to go get all up in my spreadsheets. And her book, Hidden Profit, is coming out next week. Jamie, welcome to the pod. So thrilled to have you here.

Jamie Trull:

I'm so excited to be here and talk about this process. I also love that I'm the coolest CPA you've met, but I also recognize that like the comparison there, the competition.

Meghan Stevenson:

It's a hard feel super high bar. I mean, we we have a mutual friend who's also a CPA, uh, the wonderful Hannah Slominsky. And like she's also very cool, but like I let's just not tell Hannah that you're slightly cooler than she's never listen to this one. I mean, you pay me, so there's a difference in that. All right, Jamie. So I want to know everything, and I'm sure our readers too too, or not our readers, our listeners do too, um, and our watchers on YouTube. So, how did you become who you are? Like, tell me the backstory of Jamie Troll.

Jamie Trull:

Yeah, I love that when you put this in in the notes, it said the your origin story, and I just felt like it makes me feel like a superhero or a supervillain. I'm not sure. No. Um, I was bit by a radioactive spider. No, I'm just kidding. Um, so I feel like, you know, it's been a journey. I was one of the people that kind of came into the entrepreneurial world from corporate. So I was a corporate woman through and through. I was climbing that corporate ladder, doing all the things. Um, and right about the time that I had kid number two, it just became really difficult and untenable. And things were changing at my job as well. So I was either gonna have to relocate overseas or I was gonna be leaving my job. And so um I opted to leave my job at the time. And then I moved actually closer to home, which was Nashville, Tennessee. And so in that time, I don't think I really had, you know, this idea. Actually, I know I had no idea what I was gonna do next. I just knew that the idea of walking back into an office or a cubicle just sounded absolutely terrible to me. I really was not interested in that life anymore, especially because I had built up so much flexibility in my old corporate job, but now I had two kids, including an infant, and I didn't want to start over. I really didn't want to start over somewhere else and give up the things that I had had to give up earlier in my career to do that. So I think it came like the business came out of necessity more than anything. I needed to bring in some money for the family. And um, so I started kind of doing some things on the side and really more freelance work. I think a lot of entrepreneurs, that's the easiest way to get into it, is you just start figuring out what people will pay you to do. And so I am a CPA by trade. I don't love taxes, but I love the profit side of things. So I love profit strategy, helping you become more profitable, pay yourself more, run a sustainable business, right? And so that's what I really got into. So I was doing kind of the one-to-one work, then you know, shifted around 2019, which was actually a great time to shift into more educational work, because then COVID happened and my business actually kind of exploded because at that point I was really just teaching and education and I really focused on helping, you know, small business owners navigate through COVID, which is where the business just grew really, really quickly and got completely out of hand from what I thought I was gonna be doing to now. So um that's kind of where it has come. And now, thankfully, you know, flash forward, I have a team and help, and you know, we create digital products to help small business owners manage their finances. So that's kind of where I'm at now. But I never would have seen that happening if I were, you know, to go back in time. I never would have had this image and especially never, I think I wanted it to write a book, but the idea that I have a book coming out in 2025 is still kind of like a pinch me moment. I love that though.

Meghan Stevenson:

I love that so much. Yeah, I think that happens to a lot of entrepreneurs too, because you know, you really stepped up in COVID and your audience grew with you. And I think you really met that moment, and it's a great lesson to everybody listening that, like when you're poised for that, because I've had multiple clients who are online entrepreneurs sort of do that, whether it was, you know, George Floyd or COVID or you know, some other like timely event, like they step up and they are willing to go on record and be public and like can really help your platform growth. So I know how we found each other, which is through the lovely Jamie Sears, a class of I think 2023, uh from Megan Stevens and Books over here. But we actually have another funny thing in common, which is that you, when you worked at Coca-Cola, so Jamie is, you know, being hush hush about this, but her corporate job was at like the major bottling facility in the southeast, um, like doing all this crazy profit strategy for like all the different waters and energy drinks and all the things Coca-Cola does. But you also worked with my aunt-in-law, Suzanne Florlitas, who is amazing. It's just so funny. Like I like friended you on Facebook because I was hunting you for, and then we'll get into that for a reason of hunting you down, as I do that occasionally. And I was like, how the fuck does she know Suzanne?

Jamie Trull:

Yes, that was like the crazy moment. I I am a big believer, like things happen and you will just know. And I just knew immediately, first of all, you came so highly recommended, uh, you know, from a couple friends who were writing proposals at the time. And I was in a mastermind with them, and they just said, Jamie, you need to write a book and you need to, you know, Meghan, you need to work with Meghan. And so I knew from then, but then just seeing the connection to Suzanne was kind of crazy, and it's just such a small world, especially because we live on like opposite coasts from one another. So it makes no sense, but uh we definitely had that tie-in. And so I knew, I mean, I knew that the book will happen eventually. I don't know when, but when it happens, it's gonna be with Meghan. Like that was just a very instant obvious for me. Um, and you were so good. I want to hear about the stocking because I didn't know that because I felt like, you know, you were really good at checking back in. Like I think we first talked in early 2021 and I was underwater. I was just underwater with business. Our business had grown by leaps and bounds through COVID and all the things, and I didn't have the bandwidth, but I wanted to do it. And so I kind of told you that, and you were fine with that, but you would check in like every couple of months, just like a quick check-in, you know, to see how I was feeling. And so that really was helpful. It also helped keep it top of mind to me so that it didn't fall so far down the to-do list. I think with entrepreneurs, like there's a million things to do. So that thing that's so big as writing a book um kind of can get pushed. But you were really good at kind of following up and just seeing where I was at.

Meghan Stevenson:

Yeah. So I'm like a dog with a bone. I'm very like, I'm like very like, we're gonna keep on this for better or for worse. My husband probably hates it because I do it to him around home maintenance. So I was like, what about that light? What about that light? What about that light? What about that light, right? So, but yeah, it's definitely something that I see. So when I let's talk about this through the framework with which listeners are, you know, the 3P framework, potential platform proposals. So let's talk about potential first. So I knew through my own business ownership that the books out there were just awful on small business finance. You have Profit First, which bless him, Mike Mikolitz seems like a lovely gentleman. And I know people that work for him and with him, and they just love him. And I've never had the pleasure to meet him. And I wish I had had that book earlier when I was like a soul prop, but it fails from my experience when you get above $200,000 in revenue or you have any kind of complication at all. It's also super frugal, which I don't know about you, but I I know you and I know your type, and we're gonna get into sacred money archetypes. But like, I'm not an accumulator, I'm a celebrity archetype, which is basically a spend money archetype. No VIP experience, I don't want. And so for me, Profit First was too frugal. And I think a lot of people end up seeing that. Also, my bookkeeper hated it because she's like, Why do we have seven accounts for things? Like she was just like, she's like, I hate you right now. Um, and good, good on her. But like it was one of those things where I was like, okay, Profit First is the category, what we call a category killer, meaning that it is the dominating number one in that category, and it still is. I checked yesterday on Amazon and it still was number one. And then my friend Hannah, the other CPA we both know, recommended this other book, and it literally made me fall asleep three times. I was like, okay, this can't be the answer. And then I ran into your content and I was like, oh, here it is, right? So, like, that is clearly the potential. Like, I knew, and I love when I can take a swing at a category killer. So I was like, I'm gonna very gently, and this is important for people to know is that I'm a I sent this to the imprint and the publisher specifically that publishes profit first. And I was like, here is this nice, kind takedown of this book that has sold like 300,000 copies, and why are books gonna be better, right? It's just like really funny, but like that, I was like, okay, this is definitely like this has legs. Did you feel like that about your book? Were you like, this is needed, this is necessary?

Jamie Trull:

I think when I first started my business, one of the things, because even I, you know, as much as I have a financial background, small business is different, right? So I wanted to see what was out there, even just to see like what other what books exist in this space? And every time I'd see the question asked about, you know, is there a small business financial management book? Either the books recommended weren't really small business financial, they were more like the big idea entrepreneurial books, which are great, but they're different, they're not as tactical. I wanted a tactical book. Uh, the only one that ever came up was Profit First. And so of course I read Profit First. And Mike is a, he is a character. He, you know, it is, it is a it is a very good book for what it is. And I think that my biggest issue with Profit First wasn't as much the system because I actually do think it works for people, that's great. If it works for you, awesome. Now I do know most people actually modify Profit First. So that's kind of the interesting thing. He tells you in the book 17 times not to modify it, but everyone I know that uses it modifies it. But what I realized too is that a cash is a cash management system. It doesn't actually teach you how to be more profitable. It doesn't actually teach you how to manage your money, it just kind of takes away, it puts a process in place to protect you from yourself. It's kind of like a Dave Ramsey envelope situation, which is helpful. But again, if you're not pricing your products sustainable products and services sustainably, if you don't know how to reinvest in a way that's going to grow your business, you know, you're you're gonna run into issues. So I think people saw profit first as the end-all be-all of financial management. And it's really just a tool, right? There's a lot more you need in order to meet your goals as an entrepreneur and grow your business. And I do think sometimes profit first actually can shoot yourself in the foot a little bit if you don't know if you're just cutting expenses to cut expenses. What if those expenses were actually generating you a heck of a lot more income, right? So it doesn't go into that level of discernment. And I really trust people to discern for themselves. I also think a lot of those types of systems kind of try to take the guesswork out of it, but in the meantime, you take the personality out of it. You take your own personal hopes and dreams and try to conform everybody into a system that may not work for them, which is why everybody modifies it, right? So I wanted something that was a little bit more modifiable that went into more detail and helped people actually understand their finances, right? How to read a PL without falling asleep, and then, you know, how to manage, you know, the cash flow and be more profitable. I wanted to cover all of those, which is a lot. There's a lot in this book.

Meghan Stevenson:

There's a lot in the book, but I feel like it's really accessible. My husband just started a business, and I was like, the first thing you need to read is Jamie's book, because less him, he took out a personal credit card. Like, and I was like, no, this is not how we do things, you know. Um, you know, I totally have done that in the past. Um, but it's those common mistakes that people just don't, you don't know what you don't know, you know? So we talked a little bit about platform, um, and I think you had a really interesting platform where we talk about how you know social media followers aren't the beyond and all. So, like overall, you had a following directly of a hundred thousand when I because I checked the proposal the other day. Um, and that's grown. But you also have this like Facebook group. Can you talk to me about how you leverage that Facebook group, both in your business and your plans for like promoting this book?

Jamie Trull:

Yeah. So the Facebook group was the first thing that grew. So now we focus a lot more on YouTube just because that content lives a lot longer. So that's our primary focus now. But for years, it was our Facebook group. And we've got 41,000 members in it. It's called Financial Literacy for women business owners. It's free, but it grew really fast. It grew a lot actually pre-COVID, because I was doing, you know, weekly lives in there teaching topics that business owners struggle with in a way that they could understand, right? In a way that made sense. It wasn't all jargony. It wasn't like falling asleep listening to a CPA tell you about something, right? And so that worked really well. And we had thousands of people in there pre-COVID, but then during COVID, it just exploded because I was going live pretty much daily talking about how to get help for your business, how to get the PPP loans, and you know, really diving into some of those topics that were changing by the day. But people didn't want to hear about how to be more profitable. At a time their business was like government-ordered shutdown, right? Yes. So I had to pivot, right? That was the word of 2020. But I did. And I just, it wasn't about at the time, even like growing a platform. Like the idea, like that was great and all, but in the moment, it was just how can I serve these people that need help, right? I wasn't charging anything. I was just trying to be of service. And I think that there is something really beautiful that comes there when you grow with that in mind, right? It really does. It has been the biggest catalyst to my business to date. Like I still I kind of like tear up thinking about it because of, you know, who what this business was before and after COVID are completely different. Um, and it has just increased my platform so much to be able to reach more people with what I want to teach. And it allowed for this book to exist. And so uh it I really have a lot of, you know, especially that Facebook group, those are my people, right? Those are the original people that supported me. They invited their friends. They we we ran no ads to this group. We weren't, it was all organic and we were growing by hundreds of people a day. And um, so that was really just neat to see that when you put kind of that that service first, right? So leadership is like a big part of our business, that it comes back. And this book is fruit is kind of proof that it comes back to you.

Meghan Stevenson:

I love that because a lot of people think, okay, I'm gonna grow this platform just to get this book deal. And I always think that's very uh short-sighted. Yeah, it it people can feel the transactionality in that, you know, unless you're really good. I've known a few people that are very good, like con artist level good at marketing and sales. Then it's not yeah, obvious, but a lot of times that transaction, most of us that aren't that level, like it feels very transactional. And so people can pick up on that.

Jamie Trull:

Yeah, and I'm feeling it now with regards to there are people that I helped years ago. They may have never bought uh any of my digital products because they didn't make sense for them, which is completely fine. But with this book coming out, they're the first people to jump up and support because they are loyal and they're telling people about it, and they like, you know, want to be able to thank even just for for, you know, years ago what I did for them and how I helped them on a grand scale. I don't even know who they are in some cases, right? And so it's really neat to see just how you can create loyal followers, they are so much better, loyal followers that trust you because you have shown up for them well. That is a platform that's completely different than having, you know, I don't have a million followers on TikTok, but my people show up for me. And that was something that I really tried to get across, and I think we did even in the book proposal, that even though it isn't, it's a it's a big platform, but it's not a huge mega platform. But my people show up and they're gonna show up and they're already showing up during, you know, pre-orders. And um, so I think that that was really evident and a really key part of our messaging in the proposal, too.

Meghan Stevenson:

Yes, I agree. I mean, I think those people cross over the Rubicon into fandom, and generosity is generative because humans are wired for reciprocity. It's the reason that like if someone holds the door open for you, literally, like at a coffee shop, you are more likely to hold that door for the next person. And it's actually kind of surprising when you don't. Like, that is kind of how we're wired as like a tribal social species. Yeah, it's super cool. Okay, so let's talk about this proposal process because I feel like you rolled with a lot of these things, right? That level of platform growth would freak people out, you know, hundreds of people all of a sudden like like, and now you're writing this proposal. What was that process like? Like, were you excited? Were you scared? Were you scaresighted? Like, how how did you feel during the proposal process?

Jamie Trull:

I think I didn't know enough to be scared, or I think I was excited. I didn't know enough to be scared. Looking back, I probably should have done. But I had Meghan, so I didn't have to be scared, right? True. Um, and I think that really helped me quite a bit. And I I'll take it back even more than that. Like, I remember getting the email from you. So we had connected, I think like a year and a half earlier in 2021, and it was late 2022, uh, what was it, late 2022, when I got an email from you. And it would literally just said 2023, I think question mark was the subject line. And it just said, like, are you ready? You know, is it the time for that book proposal in 2023? And I responded back and I was like, you know what? I actually think that it is. I I got your email and there was an immediate feeling that I had that wasn't all of a sudden looking for excuses on why I couldn't do it. It sounded really expansive. And I think that's how you also know that it's time. If it feels like, oh my God, how am I gonna do all of this? It might be time to wait a little bit, but start making the room, right? Start making the progress to make the room, which is what I tried to do by hiring people and building out processes so that I would have more space. And so when I started, it was, you know, I was excited. I was like, okay, this feels right, this feels good. And I had a guide, Meghan, to help me through the process because that was the scariest part, right? It was like, I don't understand this process. And in fact, I had no idea what a book proposal really was. And I think that that's something that, you know, I thought of like, okay, a book proposal is, you know, maybe like 10 pages. It's gonna talk a little bit about me. It's gonna have a little bit, you know, maybe like the intro in there and it's gonna talk about why they should buy my book. I don't know how many pages was ours like 90 pages. It was so long.

Meghan Stevenson:

It was pretty extensive, yeah. The I would say the average in the industry is anywhere from 50 to 100, but ours tend to be somewhere in that 60 to 75 range. Yeah.

Jamie Trull:

Yes. So it was, and because you're writing, you know, the chapter summaries and you really have to get into it. So you're not just writing this proposal. I mean, it felt like a lot of it felt like, and in some cases, I just wrote the whole chapter because it was easier. Just like get to page two and like stop. And I just I couldn't. And so, you know, we had a lot to work with when we actually got to the book writing um part of things. But, you know, that piece, I think I didn't realize how big it was. I think I hired you thinking even more like, oh, I'm not worried about the writing, but like, I don't know how to get an agent. I don't know how to, you know, turns out, like looking back, I knew nothing about anything. Like nothing at all in terms of even how to structure it, right? Like, I think I thought like, I'm an okay writer, I think I'll be okay. And it's really so much more about structure and flow and like, you know, are the ideas making sense and have we put things in the right order? And that is not stuff I'm great at, and that was stuff that you were fabulous at. So you could see things that I couldn't see from the content, and just helping you pick out like, how do we put this, how do we make this, you know, you even went through all my content to help me figure out like what it what is this book? What goes in it, right? Um, and so that was really helpful. And I think I wouldn't have recognized that piece, like having not gone into it. So I think looking back, I'm even more grateful to have had you through that process because it is a lot bigger than you might think a proposal is, right? Yes, you also helped like me get in touch with agents and find an agent, and that was amazing. But the proposal itself was no small feat.

Meghan Stevenson:

Yes, and your proposal was so awesome. We had multiple agents interested. You landed what I think is the perfect match for you, and that's always our our goal to match our clients with the perfect agent. But talk to me about landing your book deal with Simon and Schuster. Like, I I know that you went, Jamie has the best Instagram story all on her Instagram. We'll put the link in the show notes for her going to the offices. And she we're both Swifties, so she put it to Welcome to New York. And like my little heart was just exploding the day I saw that. I watched it yesterday just for fun, honestly. Um, so tell me about this book deal with Simon. Like, how did you feel? And like, how did it feel like?

Jamie Trull:

I mean, it was a dream. Like it just the whole thing, because I've heard a lot of negative parts of that part of things, right? Like shopping for editors, and there were hard parts. Like we were on submission, we did two rounds of submission, but then ended up getting multiple offers, which was amazing. But it it was hard because you know, it does feel like there's some, there's some judgment there. So you're getting on these meetings with these publishers and you're trying to put your best foot forward and trying to, you know, let them see what you're all about. And at the end of the day, you know, sometimes it would work and sometimes it wouldn't, whether it be like the platform or whatever it was that they um, you know, weren't sure about, it always hard to be turned down, right? Um, so that was kind of difficult to go through that process. But honestly, I feel like it worked exactly as it was supposed to. I mean, I I cannot imagine being with a different publisher and with a different editor. I love my editor. Um, again, a lot of people have issues with editors and maybe switching in the middle. And I have, I did not have that issue. Um, my editor from Simon Acumen has been absolutely fantastic. Um, and I've been really happy with just everything throughout the process. So I feel lucky in that because I know that that's not necessarily always the story, and I was prepared for that not to be my story. I was prepared for frustration and you know, the things that come with it. But um honestly, it was great. And so I do feel like, yeah, I got to go visit the Simon Schuster office. I go to New York anytime I get a chance. So if I got the option to go up there, I'm gonna go. And that was really cool to just kind of get to it, just makes you feel like I'm an author. You know, there's this wall of books, you know, all these, you know, published books by different authors, and I'm I just recognizing like I'm gonna be a Simon and Schuster published author. And there's so much gravitas to that. Because of course, every author, like I went into this process thinking, okay, I want a publishing deal because that feels like I want to try it this way, right? I want it, I it my big I have big dreams, I want to try it this way, I want to go like it might not be the easiest way, but like I want to give it a try. But in the back of my head, I always was like, you know, if it doesn't work out, I'll self-publish, right? That was always but I think like I even get chills just thinking about like there is there is this prominence of like, no, this is a this is a company that's been around for a hundred years. Yeah, and they're publishing my book. And it was going to be like this is, you know, it feels really good. And I feel like the process has also made the book better. So that was also something I didn't necessarily expect as much, is how helpful, you know, just the rounds of editing and things like that going through this process. The book is so much better than it would have been if I just sat in a room and wrote it myself, like a million times better.

Meghan Stevenson:

A million times better. I mean, I think we can talk about that more. So, like, what surprised you the most about writing the book?

Jamie Trull:

I actually thought the writing part was easy. I think people worry about the writing part. Um, and that was not the hard part for me. I actually loved that. When I could find the time, of course, that was the hard thing of like figuring out my schedule with all the other things I was doing with my business. And um, so I think that, but I I really got into the writing. I think what surprised me is how much of the work actually is on the back end of the writing, right? So there's a little bit of a feel like, well, once I've written the book, look, I wrote a book. And then it's like, oh no, but now it's, you know, moving, moving all those things around, all the stuff that made it better, right? That was harder though. Because it also, you know, I found, I think what also surprised me is like I looked for opportunities to not reread it. I was always so um, I hated, I hate reviewing my own work. I'm that person where I just I get in my own head, I don't want to review things, I just want it to be done, right? And so this forced me to go back through with a fine-toothed comb. And like again, it was hard and it took a lot of work and it took a lot of mental work, honestly, right? Because you'll get into something and you'll be like, I just I would get a week out from writing it. I would love it when I wrote it. I get a week out and I'm like, it's probably terrible, right? In my mind, I've now decided it's terrible. And then I have to go back in and make edits. And then I'm like, and but every time I and I'd put it off and put it off and put it off. And every time I'd jump in there, I'm like, oh, this is actually better than I thought. Especially once we kind of zhuzhed it up a little bit, right? So I think that was surprising, is just for me, the hardest part wasn't the writing, right? It was kind of the back end that has made it into the book that it's gonna be. But thank goodness I had you, Meghan, and I had an amazing editor to help in that process. Because I can imagine it being like so much more overwhelming without that. Yeah, agreed.

Meghan Stevenson:

And I think it's really easy too to like either put off the writing as a business owner because it is you feel like you need your 100% undivided, no interruption, no slackings, no, you know, texts from friends, no kids running around, like you you need all of that to do it. And sometimes that's true and sometimes that's not true. It really depends on the author, but I think it's really easy. And you were one of the more successful authors we have at that about like me saying, Hey, Jamie, like, can you go write two pages on this? And I get like 10 pages back. It was almost like a wealth of information, right? Um, so what has been the greatest learning for you as a business owner in this whole process, like publishing a book, like just more generally, like what did you learn maybe about yourself or about the business?

Jamie Trull:

Or oh man, it is a it is definitely an introspective process, right? Anytime you bite off something brand new that's out of your comfort zone where you're gonna, you know, I feel really confident in certain areas, this is totally new to me, right? And so I think that there is just this like growth process that comes through it, again, through not only just like doing things you've never done, but also the mental challenges and overcoming those mental hurdles that it's so easy to get in your head when you're doing something new. And you want it to be great. I think that's the other thing is I had to learn not to like, I didn't want to temper my expectations, but I needed it to not be so much about the results, right? I because I think as a business owner, we put so much on like, you know, what is the what are the numbers that are gonna make this successful? And I think one of the things I really had to do some work on for myself is like, no, writing this book and getting it out in the world is success. I'm already there, right? Like it's it's done. Um, so I had to really be like, I don't care, like it's not about where I land on the list. Do I want to land on the list? Of course. But am I gonna bend over backwards to do all kinds of crazy things that feel out of integrity, integrity with myself to do that? No. I want this to do well, not just so that I can say it did well. I want this to do well because I want to help people, right? So I had to really reframe like what is success in this. And it's different than maybe how we might look at um success in our business. Although I'd argue actually probably fairly similar, right? It's all about, you know, who you're impacting, who are you helping? And that's really um, I think that's one of the biggest learnings I had to do is I didn't, I didn't put specific goals necessarily on like how many I'm gonna sell. Do I have hopes and dreams per lots and lots of sales? Absolutely. But my success is not tied to a certain number of sales, which is really hard for me as a numbers person.

Meghan Stevenson:

Well, I think that's really useful because you know, your book happened to be sold to the publishers at a time where publishers were not spending money. So I would say that just because of the timing of your deal, you got less money than the average client that we work with, right? Like you got very close to a six-figure deal, but not quite there. So I think that that then too kind of like reset expectations just from the jump, where you are way more likely. Um, and we talked about you know earning out in a previous episode, but like you're much more likely to get to royalty with the advance that you received. But I I bet it was sort of an adjustment.

Jamie Trull:

Um Yeah. And I I think too, on that point about advances, I think that's also like a very misunderstood thing where it's like you almost see your worth as like what advance are gonna people gonna offer you, right? And it really is a factor of a lot of things, and most of them you have no control over. So for me, and and again, just remembering like, hey, I can earn a lot more than this. And and for me and for most entrepreneurs that write a book, the goal isn't necessarily to like become rich selling books, right? Like with our little our royalty commissions, like that's great. I love like more passive forms of income, which this doesn't feel like passive right now, but in the future, hopefully it will. It will be one turns out. Yeah, eventually it will turn into uh it's a very active in the beginning, but eventually it'll be a passive form of income, which I love. But the goal is to have more people find out about my business and to then hopefully grow the business on the back end, grow some speaking opportunities for me, you know, things like that. So for me, again, like yes, advance helps because there is upfront cost. My goal was really I need to cover my costs. Like, I need to make sure that I'm putting, you know, I'm I'm doing some hiring, I am, you know, putting some marketing effort behind this. And so that's really what I'm using it for, more so than trying to make like that a profit center. Um, but again, I think it will be worth it in the long run for the long-term reach. We're so used to putting out like so much social media content and YouTube and all this. A book is going to exist and it is gonna be on all these platforms, and you know, people are gonna be able to buy it forever. So, um, and hopefully then, you know, people decide to take the next step and um, you know, come and purchase things for my business or whatever that looks like. So I think that was part of it too, is just taking apart, like it's not all about the advance. The advance is great, but this is a bigger than, you know, a number on an advance. And I also think had I gotten like some mega advance, I probably would have been even more in my head during this process.

Meghan Stevenson:

Yes, 100%. That's what I see in general, is like if the advance is too high, it is an undue amount of pressure, especially depending on the socioeconomic environment in which you were raised, sometimes can really matter. Like if that's so disproportionate, it gets kind of into money mindset stuff, but like it's very much like this, yeah. It can be a trip, basically. It can be like a can be like yeah, it could not be.

Jamie Trull:

I would rather feel like underestimated and blow it out of the park. Like that feels more in alignment with me than feeling like I have so much pressure on myself to perform and that other people have expectations um and worried that I'm gonna fail, right? So I think for me that just felt a lot better of a place to be in and knowing, like, hey, it we're all gonna make the same at the end of the day, like depending on how much we sell. I have plenty of opportunity here. Um, I think that really helped as well.

Meghan Stevenson:

I agree, I agree. I think that it makes a lot of sense. And the way that we're positioning your book too is that's a backlist bestseller, as a book that's not going to maybe hit the list immediately, although wouldn't we all love it if it did? But like this book's gonna continue to sell because that's how Profit First has Profit First has never been on a bestseller list. And that's because you know, Mike is just it's one entrepreneur isn't telling another entrepreneur about it.

Jamie Trull:

Yeah.

Meghan Stevenson:

Um speaking of entrepreneurs, what would you tell an entrepreneur or an expert who is listening to this podcast and thinking about going on this grand adventure, whether it was with me or someone else or even like self-publishing, like what would you say?

Jamie Trull:

Yeah, I think be patient. We have to practice patience in this. It is very different. Um, as a business owner, like if you're like me, you're probably go, go, go, right? Like I want to put the effort in and then immediately see the return on that investment. Um, I am scrappy, like I wanna, you know, my team knows I don't like to wait two weeks, much less two years, to see the fruits of our labor. And so this is a very different thing that is a lot of work up front. There is investment monetarily, monetarily, there is investment, a lot of investment from just, you know, hours and labor perspective. And so sometimes there's then there's a lot of like question mark, is it gonna be worth it? Right? Is it gonna, is the, is the ROI going to be there? And I think it's hard for a business owner because you know, we're so used to like a quicker turnaround on the things that we do. And that was a really hard adjustment for me to be like, oh my gosh, there's a lot of upfront. This is like one of those situations where it's a lot up front and then the payoff comes later, right? And it's not even like one big payoff, it's not like when this book launches, all of a sudden that's the payoff. It's like a long-term payoff. And so I think just that mindset is really important, especially for entrepreneurs because it's different than maybe what we're used to in our business. And so it can sometimes get a little deflating, it can sometimes get discouraging because it's such a long process. Like I said, you sent me that email at the end of 2022, and that's we decided to work together. This will it will have been three years from you sending me that email to the this book existing in the world. It is a birthing process, like longer, you can add up my two kids and how long they were in my womb. This took longer. I love that. I love that.

Meghan Stevenson:

That's true. I mean, it is true, and I think for entrepreneurs that are used to like for better or for worse, the launch cycle of I'm gonna conceive of this thing and launch it, deploy it, see the result within a quarter, maybe at the most. Yeah, is like they're so used to that that it it it seems almost antiqual to like the way that most online entrepreneurs operate, even.

Jamie Trull:

And I've noticed this too, just it's a very different industry as well. And so, like, we're in pre-order right now, right? Which is great. And I'm excited about this and I have pre-order bonuses and we're trying to get things out there. And so um, you know, I'm checking in with the publisher because I don't have visibility and I hate not having visibility. How many are we selling? Like, where are we? Right. And I'm like, I need to check that five times a day. And they're like, well, we can give you an update once a month. And I'm like, once a month, like what? So it's just a very different industry that operates in a different way. And so um, for me, it's just an adjustment. It's just an adjustment because I am a go, go, go, and it's like, it's like a hurry up and wait. There's a lot of hurry up and wait in this process. Um, and so I've had to just remember the end goal, remind myself why why I have done this, and just take a breath.

Meghan Stevenson:

And it's it is like that. I feel like there's like validating moments, right? So, like the validating moment of finishing the proposal and having that benchmark done, the validating moment of we have two proposals out with agents right now, and agents are starting to request meetings, and my author's like losing her goddamn mind. Like that is like of with excitement in a good way, right? That's one thing, you know, we um send gifts when you get your book deal. That's a moment, you know, that you get to share with uh loved ones, hopefully at home, friends, people who admire and appreciate you. Um but a lot of it's a a slog, a lot of it is nebulous, a lot of it is uncertain. You are one cog in the greater machine for your editor and the publisher, and that can feel really that can put people into like psychological drama because it just is like it's so important for you, but it's like just a product to them. There's a disconnect there.

Jamie Trull:

And there are there's just there's so many milestones and they're so spread out, but I think your point is a good one. Like, we're also entrepreneurs, we're not always like great by nature in you know, celebrating the wins on the way. Like it's always on goal for us. But this process, you have to, or you're gonna burn out, right? Like it's gonna lose its meaning. And so I really like we keep, you know, they're usually cheap bottles of champagne, although Meghan sent me a nice bottle. So we can have that one. I always send you a nice bottle of champagne to just celebrate like everyday moments, like, oh, this, you know, some big, some bigger, some like actually even smaller that just felt like it deserved celebration, just to give it a moment and have that moment and feel that moment. Because, like, if you don't, you're gonna you're gonna go down real fast, right? Like, so I think that was really key in keeping it going and like also bring people in that can celebrate with you. Because I had friends that would be like, How's it going? Where are you? And I could go and tell them because you're not necessarily, you know, I'm I'm not gonna tell my audience like every step along the way. There are certain times I would tell them, like when I got the book deal, but they're not seeing all of the there's so much behind the scenes before you can like come out with it. And so there's that's hard to navigate. So you just need to make sure you have a way that while you're in that behind the scenes doing that work, that you can celebrate yourself or you can celebrate with, you know, people that know and love you. Um, because it is it is no small feat.

Meghan Stevenson:

And I think that's important when you're building platform too, right? Because unless you kind of hit this like news or cultural jackpot, like kind of the way you did, and get to ride the storm out a little, it is that incremental growth. It is that one to three to five year, 10-year thing. And so unless you're in it for more than just this random external other people decide thing, which is what a book deal ultimately is, like that is like really tricky to stay in. Okay, so Hidden Profit comes out next week. This uh episode's gonna drop a week before your book comes out on October 21st. Your book comes out October 21st, 2025. What if I want to give readers a tidbit about your experience helping small business owners from 50k to 500k is like your niche, although I'm sure you go up and oh up and down on that. What is the number one thing you wish small business owners knew about money that they don't right now?

Jamie Trull:

Ooh, well, you mentioned you mentioned the sacred and money archetype. So we can come back to that. I think that's a good one. You have to know yourself, right? And I think that that is the start of all of it because if you try, if you've tried money management systems and they haven't worked for you, chances are it wasn't you. It was the money management system, right? So you need to know yourself enough. And there are resources, and we have resources in the book to help you with that. And that's why we include it, right? If it was just this, this book of all kinds of tactical stuff, it would be a lot. And it is, there is a lot of great tactical stuff in it, but there's also the pieces that are just like, how do we, how do we then align that with ourselves and who we are and also what your goals are, right? Your goals are not the same as everybody else's. So why would you have the same money management system as somebody else out there? And so I think that's a really important piece of it is um personalizing and customizing is a good thing, right? Um, there isn't one way to do something. So we have to let go of that when we're thinking about money management, whether it's in your business or your personal life. There's not just one way. Even though there's all the gurus in the world that will tell you that their way is the only way, that's not what my book is. And that was purposeful. And I was worried that wouldn't sell because people don't, people want to be told what to do, right? Like there is a piece of us that wants to say, like, okay, how much should I be spending on XYZ? What percentage should be going to this? But I really wanted to take it from a different place and say, like, hey, we're we're adults. And so some of this is just self-knowledge. It's so much of the growth we've had. I know so many entrepreneurs that this process has grown them as a person and helped them to understand themselves a lot more. So why wouldn't we apply that same lesson to our money? Right. And so that's something I think is really central in the book is yes, there's all these tactical things, but also it's about knowing yourself and knowing what you want, right? And then you can set up something that's gonna work best for you.

Meghan Stevenson:

I love that. I think that's true too about publishing, right? When you know what you want, then you it's easier to pick the avenue of the publish, when you're gonna publish, why you're publishing, how you're publishing, all those things, even like down to like who, which agent you choose, which publisher offer to you choose, all of that's gonna be way, way clearer. Yeah. Um all right. That I'm gonna leave it right there because there's so much, y'all, that is good in Hidden Profit. Jamie has given everybody some bonuses, but those are in the show notes. Really do yourself a favor and check out her book, Hidden Profit. It is great, it is so helpful. I'm going to buy lots and lots of coffees to give to everybody. I know because uh starting with my husband, because I just think it's gonna be well, he's starting a business, he needs to know. I wish I knew all this stuff. Like, literally, like when we were working together with Jamie, I was doing the chapters as we worked. Like, I was like, we did a chapter on product mix, and I was like, okay, time to do that. Before we hopped on today, I was creating my own cash flow forecast. I printed off the illustration from the book because I had and I was like, I have to know, but I was like, I could ask for four, but or I can just do it myself. Um, because I love a good Google sheet now. Uh this is like the shock of my life. If you could go back 10 years and be like, you are gonna love Google Sheets and spreadsheets and figuring out how to make an equation work in a Google sheet, I've been like, you're fucking kidding.

Jamie Trull:

So it's great. That's one of my favorite things that people tell me too, once they've gone through the process, that they're just like, I almost don't recognize myself. And these things that like I used to hate, I'm actually kind of excited about. And that is like the best comp best compliment you can possibly give me.

Meghan Stevenson:

I love taxes. I just have very nice CPA don't EA, and I was like, she's like, we can do this and that and this. And I was like, yes, let's do that. And you know, we hired a financial planner now. So like I'm like, let's get all the financial gumers in a room and you can talk to me about tax liabilities.

Jamie Trull:

I love it. I love it. Yeah, I've loved that with you, like just going through it because you're really reading it as a user would read it as well, which I just think is so helpful throughout the process, too. That you weren't just bringing your editorial hat to it, you were bringing the like the end user, the audience, how are they gonna read this? And I think that's that was really important and super helpful to make the book even better.

Meghan Stevenson:

And it was way easier doing your book than the like diet books than you. I said to do all sorts of crazy elimination diets and things. No, thank you. So yeah, not this was easier than I'd rather make profit than like lose 10 pounds doing random stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, thank you, Jamie. All right, listeners, everything is in the show notes. If you have questions about your book, leave me a voicemail. Uh, that link is in the show notes too. And we'll see you next week. Cheers to your success. Bye, everybody. Thanks for tuning in to the Kind of Big Book Deal podcast. Want to see where you're at on your book journey? Check out my free quiz at MeghanStevenson.com forward slash quiz. That's M-E-G-H-A-N-S-T-E-V-E-N-S-O-N.com forward slash quiz. See you next time.