Kind Of A Big Book Deal

Episode 26 - Leverage PR to Build Platform with Caitlin Copple and Full Swing PR

• Meghan Stevenson

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What if your story could open doors and reshape who gets to be seen? In this episode, Meghan talks with PR expert Caitlin Copple, co-founder of Full Swing PR, about the kind of visibility that actually drives results for entrepreneurs who want book deals and real impact.

Caitlin shares why PR only works when your business is ready for it, what founders must have in place before hiring a publicist, and how “publicity that fills your pipeline” differs from the vanity wins most people chase. She explains the value of consistent visibility habits, why many entrepreneurs aren’t prepared for the audiences they dream about, and how alignment, not hustle, creates lasting momentum.

You’ll walk away with practical guidance on growing an audience, knowing when to invest in PR, understanding what publishers care about, and identifying the energetic blocks that keep you stuck.

If you’re aiming for a book deal or a bigger platform, this conversation will help you get clear on your next move.

This week’s guest is Caitlin Copple. She is the Founding Partner at Full Swing Public Relations. Caitlin’s work teaching clients to “be the news” has elevated the stories of diverse founders, sold books, won elections, passed legislation in multiple states, and even ousted a lawmaker accused of sexual assault. She has placed clients in a wide array of outlets such as CNN, Forbes, Fast Company, TIME, and many more. Caitlin and her business partner, Holly Conti, scaled the agency to seven figures in less than four years. 

Full Swing PR is the nation’s leading agency for underrecognized founders and leaders of professional services companies scaling $2M+. Our agency has helped hundreds of clients earn millions of dollars through smart, effective PR campaigns. In 2024 and 2025, Full Swing PR was named among Inc. Magazine’s fastest growing privately held companies in the Rocky Mountain Region.

Full Swing PR is a women- and LGBTQ-owned agency.

Find Caitlin and Full Swing on social 

Find the Full Swing PR podcast here: https://fullswingpr.com/how-to-hire-pr-podcast/.

Take Full Swing PR’s Visibility Scorecard quiz here: https://fullswingpr.typeform.com/visibilityscore 

Episode Highlights:
(0:00) Intro
(1:10) Introducing Caitlin Copple & Full Swing PR
(3:10) Why representation matters in PR
(5:03) What makes


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  • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meghanstevenson/
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Have a great idea for a book but don't know where to start?MeghanStevenson.com/quiz


Traditional publishing expert Meghan Stevenson blasts open the gates of the “Big 5” – Penguin Random House, Simon & Schuster, HarperCollins, Hachette, and Macmillan – to share what every entrepreneur and expert needs to know about landing a book deal.

In episodes released every other Monday, Meghan shares wisdom and stories from 20+ years in publishing as well as interviews with authors, literary agents, and editors. She also answers questions from listeners like you.

Whether you are an experienced entrepreneur with an empire, or are just starting out – this podcast will help you understand what you need to do in order to turn your dream of being a bestselling author into real life.

Speaker:

So if you want to get the most mileage out of a headline and it's something really significant, add it to your email signature. Like as seen in Dwell, as seen in the New York Times, like what is going to make the most sense to make sure as many people that you're interacting with can find that clip and see it.

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the kind of a big book deal podcast where entrepreneurs come to learn about traditional publishing. I'm your host, Meghan Stevenson. After working as an editor for two of the biggest traditional publishers, I started my own business helping entrepreneurs become authors. To date, my clients have earned over $5 million from publishers like Penguin Random House, Simon Schuster, and Harper Collins. In these podcast episodes, I've blast open the well-kept gates to traditional publishing. I'll explain what every entrepreneur needs to know about landing a book deal without losing your mind. I'm going to share stories, answer your questions, interview the successful authors I've worked with, and probably say platform more than a tech bro. So if you dream of landing on a bestseller list but have no idea how, this is the podcast for you, and I am so, so glad you're here. Today I'm so psyched to have my friend and colleague, Caitlin Copple, on the pod today. So Caitlin is one of the founders of Full Swing PR, along with her friend and our friend of the pod, Holly Conti. So Full Swing is the nation's leading agency for under-recognized founders and leaders of professional service companies scaling 2 million and above. They've helped hundreds of clients earn millions of dollars through smart, effective PR campaigns. And last year in 2024, Full Swing was named among Inc. magazine's fastest growing privately held companies in the Rocky Mountain region. And Caitlin and I were just chatting about the fact that she personally is going for her private pilot's license. And literally before the recording of this podcast in June of 2025, flew from Boise to Bozeman all by her little self. So almost by myself. My instructor was there. But yeah, I'll be able to take the credit. Take the credit. Thank you. Thank you. So Caitlin does amazing work, and we're going to talk today about the intersection of what she does and what I do and what y'all want to do, which is growing a platform, growing your audience, growing your impact, and eventually getting a book deal. So Caitlin, you help entrepreneurs, leaders, and experts be seen and sought after. And you make a point, you and Holly with your agency make a point of working with Black, Indigenous people of color, members of the LGBTQIA plus community, and female identifying clients. Like we have a very similar client base. Yeah. I like to say we don't exclude white guys, but like they have to be the right kind of white.

Speaker:

They have to come for us. They have to come find us. Yes. Exactly.

Speaker 1:

We we don't see that.

Speaker:

And we're always happy when they do, you know? It's uh it's great. I want to I want us to have a world where everyone feels like they can belong and it's not just skewed one direction or the other for sure. So unfortunately, we don't live in that world right now. So that was good as well that we do.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. I was gonna say, because that's like been a hot topic in the publishing industry of like white men aren't getting book deals anymore. So why has that been your focus to work with?

Speaker:

Yeah, it's not true, but why why has that been your focus to work with BIPOC, LGBTQIA, quote unquote marginalized folks? Yeah, I mean, I think it probably goes back to just my personal story. I started the company in 2019. Holly joined as an employee in 2020 and then became part owner in 2021, and now we're 50-50 and super happy about it. I would say, you know, so much of my career was spent working in progressive politics on the communication side, working with nonprofits, working with LGBTQ philanthropy, that it was always really important to me to change whose story counts, whether that's working at one of my previous places or doing what I'm doing now. I think around the time that full swing was getting off the ground and doing well, I heard the staff that only 2% of women own businesses scale and they don't really even count. Queer people who own businesses, right? So it really was motivating to me to do that thing, you know, and get to a million dollars, which we did in less than four years. And we also made the ink list again this year in 2025, which is really exciting. So two years in a row. Um, so we practice what we preach, but I think more than ever, it's like it's about changing who has money and power in our world and who gets to be seen as an author or as a CEO, um, and who gets to have sort of that freedom of life that you can decide at age 41 that you want to become a private pilot. Like that's not something that was ever modeled to me, and I think wasn't modeled for most people that we work with. And so I think it's exciting to be part of changing whose story counts.

Speaker 1:

I love that so much. So I want to talk about your rocket ship retainer, which is one of your coolest offers at full swing because I think it's really different. I've met a lot of publicists, I've worked with a lot of publicists. One of my best girlfriends is a publicist at Simon and Schuster and has been for many years. And what you're offering in the retainer and in a lot of your services is very different than what most publicists and PR agencies do. So you offer both a publicity strategy to those clients and digital marketing, like social media and email marketing. So, why do you think it's so important to do both and why do you structure your best offer around that?

Speaker:

I think we have focused on publicity that packs your pipeline. Like we want people to take an action, whether that's sign up for your email list, buy a book on pre-order, um, sign a petition, because we've also done a fair amount of advocacy work. Um, I think it's just really important that publicity actually leads to something meaningful. Otherwise, it's just like ego in the ether, right? It doesn't actually matter to your bottom line. Um, and I think for me personally, like what lights me up about helping people step into their visibility is really around impact. Um, and I just think that you can't have a full impact in the world if nobody knows who you are, right? And as I was saying earlier, you can't be what you can't see. And so while it can feel scary to step outside of our comfort zones and um become more visible in our respective industries, it's also sort of the only way to show people what's possible. And I think that's really important and honestly part of servant leadership. Like it's really not about ego for the folks that we work with. I think it really is about impact. And if if folks are interested in truly building the kind of platform that allows them to make big change or run for office one day or launch a foundation or write multiple books or whatever they want to do, it's like you've got to build that foundation of a public presence.

Speaker 1:

I completely agree. And I think it's something that's different about what you do comparative to other agencies and other publicists, because I had a client who worked with the publicist because she needed to grow her platform. Um, and she booked a ton of media, but none of it was super directed and none of it was able her, her, this is her fault, not the publicist's fault. Yeah. None of it was really able to capture, it wasn't around a united message, and it wasn't really able to capture anything in her back end. It just was sort of a bunch of random, you know, blogs and some very, you know, big household name places that didn't actually really capture anything for her. It was just like kind of a bio ad.

Speaker:

The way that we think about it is every business should have a sales funnel, right? You have one, I have one. Um, we know what that looks like, right? And PR is seen as the top, it's seen as brand awareness. And what we're building with clients now through Rocket Chip Retainer and through a new offer that hopefully will be live by the time this comes out. Um, we are also building a visibility funnel that complements that sales funnel. Because if you think about it, every level of your sales journey, you do need to be showing up in some way. It's just what that looks like looks different depending on what your goals are and again what action you want your audience to take. So I think it is really important, like before you spend a bunch of money on a publicist, whether it's us or someone else, it's really important to have those business fundamentals down and really know who your target audience is and what action you want them to take. And to also have the receipts, like have that track record of proven results and testimonials and social proof that's really important to opening doors to help you get booked on podcasts, et cetera.

Speaker 1:

So, in terms of pre-resiquits, I'm thinking of people who need to build their audience and platform. So, what would you say like would be the pre-resoquids there?

Speaker:

So I think if a client comes to us, they need to have a website, they need to have a transformative product or service, and they need to have some social proof that it works, right? Um, I said it's a transformative product or service, but that doesn't mean just because you think it is, right? Like it actually does work. Yes.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I get that so often. You have no idea how many people come to me and they're like, this is transformative. It changed my life. And I was like, great, who else's life did it change? And it's literally crooked. But when is a good time for someone to consider adding publicity to their stack? Like, what would you say are like if there were prereciquists to hiring you or someone like you? What would you say like has to be built out?

Speaker:

I would say if you are an aspiring author and you're serious, which I'm sure you are if you're listening to this podcast, you need to be starting to interview different PR firms or freelancers a year in advance of your intended launch date. I think you can start sooner than that, and it would behoove you to start sooner than that because part of if you're especially if you're going after one of the big five publishers, what's going to get you a book deal is exactly what Meghan teaches, which is that you need to have a big list, right? You need to have a big social following, email list, et cetera, that is going to convey some amount of authority and trust with that publisher to make them bet on you, essentially, right? Um, so if you have all of those things, you have a good likelihood of getting a book deal. I still think it's wise to get a publicist to support, you know, the in-house publicist that your publisher might have at least six months in advance. So we have a client right now who is a Heshet author who just launched her first book, and she started with us six months in advance of her launch, and she just because she wanted it to be that much more successful. And it's not to say that the book publisher publicists are not good. They are very good, but they have a lot of priorities. And I think that's another consideration is how much will are you likely to be prioritized by your publisher? And can swirling away a budget to hire out your own to um maybe put some fire under your publicist that comes with your publisher can only do can only do good, can only help you get the most out of this investment of time and resources that you've made in your book. And I think you have to have some consistency around how you intend to show up in the world. I think you have to have a sense of what your industry is about and how you're different. Um you have to have some semblance of positioning. We're by no means a branding firm, but I think PR positioning is a bit different and some sometimes adjacent, right, to that bigger branding work that a creative agency might do. Um and I think clients, you know, come to us because they either have a messaging problem, which is a positioning problem, or an audience problem, which is, you know, the reach. They're not connecting. And often those two problems are related, right? And so um I think the third problem I would add is that you are showing up, but you're not seeing business results from it. So that could be like an issue with your target audience maybe being off, or your offer not matching your target audience. So I think um about the way that we work that's valuable to clients is that we are truly a thought partner. We're doing the execution of the thing that you want, but we're also peers and that we are gonna care as much about your business as you do and walk with you on this journey to make sure that you see bottom line results from your PR.

Speaker 1:

I love that. And that's such a different thing because normally when you hire a PR people, they can't guarantee anything, right? Because it's kind of like what we do. I can't guarantee results. All I can say is like, hey, here's past performance. Because I can't see that this third party, whether that's a literary agent, whether that's an editor, is gonna say yes. All I can say is like, hey, in the past I've said yes. So you know, you're kind of betting on my brain and mine hutches and like the 20 years of experience. I have same thing with you, right? Yeah. Like you probably look at someone and say, hey, do I think I could reasonably get this person the PR exposure we want?

Speaker:

Yeah. And we're gonna do everything in our power to make sure that when you are pitching that you're having the highest likelihood of success. And I think the other thing that not every agency is necessarily paying attention to is the impact of how our media landscape has changed so much. So some of our clients see their biggest results, like six-figure deals signed right after a podcast appearance. And it's a podcast none of y'all have ever heard of, you know, and who cares? Was like, get that bag. Like that's kind of because that's like what lights me up, right? It's like it's not necessarily about like landing the biggest placement ever. I mean, is it cool to be in the New York Times? Yes, absolutely. And if you want to do that, by all means. But don't sleep on the creator newsletters or podcasts or strategic partnerships, even that could bring more of the right people into your world. Um, sell the thing and make the money and make more change, right?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I totally, I mean, we see that just with guests like you, right? We see a huge jump in the guests' podcast. Not because the podcast is better than my solo episodes. You all can disagree if you want. Send me an email about it. But like I think that in general, like it's just because you're sharing. Our guests are gonna share. And so then it becomes this like network effect. So what can PR? I mean, you've touched on a little bit, but what can PR really do for entrepreneurs? Like, what results have you seen for your clients?

Speaker:

I mean, I think clarity and confidence maybe don't sound as sexy as like bottom line results. I like to think we can do all three. I would be hard pressed to find any client that we've worked with that hasn't had the opportunity to make exponentially more money, having worked, having had the experience of working with us, especially those that work with us for a year or more, which is 80% of our clients through this rocket chip retainer. Um, but I think that clarity and confidence sometimes seem like softer metrics, right? And so I think of our clients who went from having one discovery call a week to having 10, you know, someone who went from having 20 inbound leads to having 50, right? Those are the kinds of like, you know, filling out your contact form or downloading a lead magnet. If you're a small business, that can make a huge difference, especially if what you are selling is like a six-figure, you know, you're selling architecture services or you're selling legal services or financial or learning and development, that sort of thing, right? Um, those are big, big numbers for the folks that we tend to work with. So I just I what's most rewarding for me is to see people feel like they have a healthier sales pipeline as a result of doing strategic visibility with us.

Speaker 1:

I love that. And what are the limitations of PR that maybe you have to have a heart to heart with your comp with your clients or maybe potential clients that you say no to because their their dreams are so out of line with like what reality is?

Speaker:

Yeah, totally. I mean, I think that um probably the biggest one is that they they don't have their operations in order. I think business operations is certainly not my son of genius, but it was the first thing I hired out, right? And everyone should be like that, I think, especially if you do fit the mold of a more traditional, you know, visionary entrepreneur. Um, you're not necessarily gonna be good at the details. And the more that you're able to like fly free in your visionary space, the less you're gonna care about those details. But somebody's got to care, right? That's the nuts and bolts of your business. And so um, to me, I think the clients that have the most dialed operations um do the best and get the most out of PR because they're using us effectively, they're responding promptly. Like we send a rapid response opportunity and they're on it, or someone's on it, right? It gets funneled to the right person.

Speaker 1:

So yep, no, ops is a whole thing. I have two people on ops and admin, and I was like, this is the best thing in the world. It's like I don't have to do anything.

Speaker:

And I even then you just get to show up and shine, you know.

Speaker 1:

That's well, that and I'm even like put it on the agenda for next week because I'm not gonna remember it. So, like everything gets handled at a certain point.

Speaker:

Yeah, okay. And I think our clients do really appreciate that about us. Like, we send a weekly uh roll-up at the beginning of the week that kind of tells them the status of everything, what we need, what's get what's getting going. We're on Slack channels. I'm not, but like our project managers are on Slack channels with clients. Sometimes I am, but I'm not very active, right? Um but we have like people feel like they their businesses learn from the way that we run our operations, which is no credit to me, but good for my team. They're great.

Speaker 1:

It means you hired effectively, though, which is so important to learn how to hire effectively, including contractors like publicists, including contractors like your book proposal girl, you know, all those sort of things, like hiring those people. Um, you know, our social media strategist has worked for me for five years. She's still a contractor, she runs her own business, and it's like it's great. But like that hiring that role is just as important as hiring uh employees. Okay. So the people listening to this are entrepreneurs who want a book deal, but who definitely need often to grow their audience and their business first. As an entrepreneur yourself, we've known each other for several years. I've known you since you were a six-figure entrepreneur. Now you are a seven-figure, multiple seven-figure entrepreneur, which is congratulations. As a founder, as a creator, as an entrepreneur yourself, what's your best advice from your own journey about how to grow your business and your audience from the ground up?

Speaker:

I think so much of it is about habits. Um, I think biting off consistent visibility habits that you can commit to and honor that agreement that you've made to yourself and your brand over time and then just keep showing up every day. Like I know I'm a vastly different human if I don't get a workout in. Um, working out is as much for my mental health as for my vanity from my for my hot genes or whatever. Yeah, but you know, like for the hotness level, but like it's really important, right? And it's and whatever those look like for you, whether that's you know, making sure that you have someone on your team pull a list of podcasts that are best fit, or maybe you are able to pay a publicist just to do that, and you commit that twice a week, no matter what, you're gonna get two pitches out. Like anyone can do that, I really believe. Like, and if you if you never hear back from any one of them, okay, give me a call or DM me. But I think in general, if you have something to say and you're a qualified expert and you send two pitches a week, you will see results. Um, and and you can do that, and especially now using AI to draft it for you. I would not recommend cutting and pasting what Chat GPT says into an email. But I think if you're if you're not a writer and you feel intimidated by that, like upload your bio or the copy on your website, upload the stuff that is um the about section of the podcast you want to appear on, and at least get a draft that way. Um, there's really no excuse to get in your own way anymore, people. Just do it, do it consistently over time. And then six years later you find yourself having a seven-figure business, and that's great.

Speaker 1:

I love that though, because it's so simple. People want all the hacks and they want all the shortcuts and they want the quick virality. And it's like, actually, no, the people that we have in our roster that are the most successful and have the biggest followings, they just are grinding, right? They're just consistent. I don't want to be a good thing. It's not even grinding, it's just like it's just consistent. I think they find joy in the work, and so then the joy it becomes its own reward in a way, right?

Speaker:

And how much can you repurpose your content that you're doing anyway, right? Like if you're posting regularly on LinkedIn or Instagram, or if you have a course or you had a course a billion years ago that you sunseted but still has some great content, like you can use all of that to help you think about topics that you could pitch yourself to um different outlets. You could um, you know, it's really not about working harder or adding another thing. I think it's just about repurposing your content in a way that shows news value. And when I say news value, it's like, why would the audience of this outlet care about what it is you have to say? Because journalists can be a harsh bunch. Like I used to be one, Holly used to be one, and they're not interested in promoting what you have to sell. Like that's not it, right? They're interested in the unique value, a fresh perspective that only you can provide because of this years of experience, transformative results you can weigh in at this particular moment on whatever's happening anyway, half the time, right? Especially if you're pitching more traditional news media, you need to be able to connect the dots of the story and tell people like why what you have to say is newsworthy or is missing from the current news cycle conversation.

Speaker 1:

Love that. I love that. So, for entrepreneurs, when it's the right or the best time to hire a publicist or a PR team like yourselves?

Speaker:

I think it's when you can comfortably afford one because people come to you and I bet this happens to you, Meghan. They're stressed out about money. And when you're stressed out about money, like it and it it changes the energetics of the whole thing. Do you know what I mean? Like you want to be in a space of spaciousness and like I'm gonna experiment with this. I've got friends who have had a publicist for six months or a year and it's transformed their business. I'm gonna give it a go for me. And then I think you really take your time and you you make sure that whoever you end up hiring is like a vibe fit, right? And that you know that there's going you know what to expect, that they're able to articulate to you on that first call where you're interviewing them and they should be interviewing you. Like, is this gonna be a good relationship? Um, I think that part's really important. We have a private podcast that I think we gave you access to, Meghan, but that answers a lot of the questions that people typically have around are they ready? What should they watch out for? And you might not need a full-blown agency. Like, there's a lot of great freelancers out there. Even in if you're super broke right now, go to your local journalism school, right? Um, because there's lots of folks in journalism school are who are great writers and understand the news media and want to learn PR because they know that journalism is sort of a tricky industry, right? It has been for a while and it's not getting simpler. Yes, yes. So, you know, if you could hire an intern for 20 bucks an hour, like everyone wins. And maybe it's 10 hours a week to start, but like start somewhere, do it yourself, get some help. There's lots of ways that help can look, but there's no reason not to be building, you know.

Speaker 1:

I love that. I want to circle back to the energetic conversation because I think it's so important. We're gonna get woo-y. I know. I love the woo conversations and I'm here for it, and it's my podcast, so I can be woo if I want. Um, I see that a lot. So I see that a lot in the clients that I have when they're I don't work with clients that have that energy most of the time anymore, but I definitely have it in the past where it's been like this grippy approval centered external energy. Do you see that in people that come to you? Maybe that you don't work with or maybe that you do? And like, how does that, how does the energy of everything uh impact the result?

Speaker:

I think it impacts it a lot. I mean, I think you see you you notice it if you've been in a room with, you know, a group of people, whether that's a mastermind or group coaching or any type of situation, like we're all responsible for the energetic state that we bring to any conversation, right? Like if I hadn't had lunch before this podcast interview, I might be a little hangry and not as charming and well spoken. Um, but no, like I mean, I really think that all of that stuff adds up and taking care of yourself and tending to that kind of self-awareness, self-care. And I don't mean like a pedicure, I mean like, are you doing whatever the work likes to looks like to you to to be aware of who you are in the world and how that affects other people. I'm an Enneagram eight, and so sometimes that's lovingly known as an eight-hole. And so I think it's good to really like know like what are your your the way that you're naturally wired to work in the world and how is that gonna rub some people, and what's reasonable for you to do around disclosure of your eight-hole ways or your um your own work to mitigate that, you're right, and and to show up in the way that you want to, which is I think for most people like kind and compassionate and you know, thoughtful and a good listener, and all of those things that we want to be, even if we're wired to be a bit bossy and domineering, right?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, as a bossy bitch myself. I'm here for that. Like I you know, it's funny. I'm a six, I don't really do Enneagram.

Speaker:

I think I'm an Enneagram seven or I'm an eight. Okay, sevens are very fun. That would make sense. I'm my wing is seven. Sevens like love the party and like and not just like a literal party, like you just love fun. It's great.

Speaker 1:

I do love fun. Well, I'm also a six-two human design, which is like the enigma because it's the role model hermit. So that means like I can show up and like blow this away, but then I need two hours to like just hermit hole with my dog and not only speak to myself.

Speaker:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

You know what I mean?

Speaker:

I'm a manifesting generator and I think it's like four or five. But what is your what is the dark I'm a projector?

Speaker 1:

So, like in my husband's a managing, so we're a very good match. We're actually a very good match because many gen's like you guys, you know, you generate a bunch of energy. The generators are like so random side story. I went on this retreat for a yoga studio that I belonged to, um, called Flight Room. Shout out to Flight Room in Seattle, yeah. But I went down there and the resort we were at in Mexico, they had another yoga retreat happening at the same time. And these people were so into human design. They were like, like I'm a little woo. They were like all the way. Wow. I forget what they were called, but it was like something crazy, like yeah, Dragon Force, you know. We were just like, it's not Dragon Force, but we were definitely like, we were like, ooh, the Dragon Force people, right? And we ended up talking to them and they were lovely, but they were super into human design to the point where like I was like, oh, I'm a projector. They're like, oh my god. They're like, come here, babe. Like, I want to pick up some of your projector energy because I guess it's and it makes sense when I told them what I do. They were like, oh my god, that is such a projector job. It's basically like, Yeah, I expand your energy with my energy, which makes sense, right? Like, I'm literally putting energy into my client's words to put it out on the page. Like, how cool! But like many chants, like my husband, y'all can just like think about stuff and then it just happens.

Speaker:

Yeah, it's true. It's yeah, there's definitely some truth there. Yeah, for sure. That's cool.

Speaker 1:

I love it.

Speaker:

It's so all that stuff. We can talk about astrology. I did astro cartography. Do you know about this? It's like meant to live and travel. Super interesting. So Holly and I did that for ourselves and our children, as we do.

Speaker 1:

I do, I do think that is important because I lived somewhere for five years and I was like, I just don't feel right here.

Speaker:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

And it was funny because it happened only after three or four years. And then all of a sudden, I was like, it was like a day was fine, and the next day I was like, nope, get me the fuck out of here. So interesting. Um, so circling back to what this podcast is about, because we just went to Tangent Town. Welcome. Uh, we're gonna come back. We took the exit off the freeway, we're coming back. Um, and that just reminds me to reach out to a friend who is an author who just wrote a book about human design. Um, uh Aaron Claire Jones, he's amazing. But anyway, so the um what I was gonna talk about in terms of that, I think there is some energetic resonance to when your book deal happens because sometimes there everything lines up in the world. We had this happen last year. This person had a big platform, he had celebrity connections, the book idea was good, he got agents fighting over him, and then every publisher in town turned him down. And I just I was like, huh, so interesting, right? And what happened was I think it just wasn't aligned. And like he bothered me about it for a little while, and then he like dropped off the face of the earth. And I was like, Oh, he figured out it wasn't aligned too, because otherwise he'd be back in my, you know, in my inbox bothering me again. Because there are some there are some things like if platform's a problem where they're like, hey, this book idea isn't like their issue with this particular thing says book idea was a little opposite as platform, which it wasn't, it wasn't some you know, yeah kind of bullshit response some publishers give sometimes. But I was like, Oh, you could strengthen that if you really wanted to over a year or two, and then we could go back. But a lot of people don't want to do that, right? They took their shot, they're good. Um and so it's just really interesting in terms of that versus when all the stars align and nothing can fucking stop you. And like totally, yeah, you know, you defy all logic, and that people think that's the rule when it's really the exception. But it is something like that does happen, like sometimes you know, vibes just interfere, the universe does what it does, and all of a sudden, there you are.

Speaker:

There you are. But I think you always learn from it, right? Either way, like even I think back to the VIP day that I did with you, and it was very clarifying and definitely surfaced a lot and gave us a lot of good content ideas. Do I have a Book, no, I do not, but do I know way more about like what I would need to do if I wanted to have a book? I certainly do, and like and I just know more about the process, right? And I think that that's also really good learning. Like we were speaking with a client earlier today, and it she was wringing her hands over kind of which publisher to choose and whether to go the hybrid route. And it's kind of like, what do you want this book to do for you? Like it is about that clarity of purpose and alignment. And for some people, they don't need a big five publisher. That's not necessarily their journey in life. And I think for others, like it is really important. They want that, and they want it for very good reasons. And I think both are okay. It's just important to know, you know.

Speaker 1:

No, I think it's totally true. It's that idea of like, do you want to live in a city? Do you want to live in a small town? Do you want to live in a country? Like, where do you want to live? Because it's like everybody might move to New York, but that could be wrong for you. Everybody might stay in your hometown, and that could be wrong for you. There's so many different things that I really, the more I think about it, and I wouldn't do that VIP today to day, which is super interesting. I wouldn't do that today because I'd be like, it's a little too much, love you, but it's a little too much of a stretch, right? It's a little too hard. And I don't want to. I've spent, you know, we used to do VIP days a lot, and I did probably 10 in the year I did it with you. And what was interesting about that is that only one was super effective. And I think that's because only one was truly ready. Yeah. The work and and and had a problem I could solve. Because sometimes I don't have a problem I can solve, right? Sometimes, like your trauma is not a problem that good old ghostwriter publishing expert Meghan can solve. Right. Right? Like, you need to throw it. That wasn't my issue, just in case. That was not your issue. No, no, no. Your issue was that like. What did I tell you? No, just kidding. I think your issue actually was that your expertise doesn't quite fit a book model. Like, I think it it's the wrong medium for you, not necessarily because it's I don't know, I think it's more of like the the medium versus the actual messaging or you as a person or as a thought leader at all. Um but yeah, anyway, the backing up, like a lot of times it is that, right? Like even teaching platform building, the reason that we pivoted to podcasts and education is because I was like, dude, in order for you to change all of this, because I've seen it, you've seen it, we've been in we've been in groups together of other entrepreneurs. I was like, I need to throw a business coach at this, a mindset coach at this, and a therapist at this for like three years to fix all this shit.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

So like me doing it on my own, no.

Speaker:

Yeah. If you want to chase the change the face of the publishing industry, like you had to back it up, right? Like to the 30,000-foot view and give people whose stories deserve to be told the tools in bite-sized amounts so that they can build to a place where they're ready to hire your signature service, you know, of actually and pitching a big five publisher, right?

Speaker 1:

And also do my own work so that then I didn't take their shit personally or make it my responsibility or do all those things I might have done in you know, 2018 or 2019, right? So like that's really, really important too when it comes to growth, is that idea, and I'm sure you and Holly have experienced it too, of like when your business expands, you have to expand too. And a lot of people listening to this aren't ready, frankly, to have 10,000 Instagram followers or to have 25,000 Instagram followers, or to have like 650,000 followers on social media, you know, they're not ready for that mentally, physically, emotionally, even with staff, right?

Speaker:

They don't their ads aren't ready for that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, no, you need to be ready. You need to be ready. I mean, you also need to have like, you know, one of my clients has security and a bodyguard. Yeah, you know.

Speaker:

Well, I think that's increasingly common, you know, and and after I post, I'm I do not have anywhere near that number of followers, but I posted that I flew here to because I was so excited, I flew from Boise to Bozeman, you know, and did all the work myself. And I was like, oh, I shouldn't have posted that that was today, you know, because it's like signaling that I'm out of town and it's very easy to, you know, find someone's address and all of those things. But I think at any level, like we all probably need to be more thoughtful about some of that stuff.

Speaker 1:

Agreed, agreed, agreed. Yes, okay. So circling back to PR since we went to Tangent Town again, we're on a freeway to the danger zone. I want to hear like the story of like an absolute wrong time to hire a business where yeah, where it was just like a disaster.

Speaker:

Okay, interesting. Okay. So imagine someone who is really worried about money, who um is like really needs their business to work, right? Yes, yeah, and is is doing PR as a Hail Mary. Like they believe that if they just do PR, it will solve their business, and they'll suddenly have lots of money. And I think while we say our goal is to deliver publicity that packs your pipeline, ultimately, like you can't use PR to solve your sales problem. It's like you can't put lipstick on a pig, right? You gotta make sure that what you're what you're selling is working and that those business fundamentals are there. So I think that's the biggest thing. I think also like if you're just not feeling lit up in your business or you're contemplating like a massive life change, um, you don't want to double down on messaging and visibility for something that's the wrong thing. Like we have a client that's on the verge of changing their name, and we've been able to navigate it because you can focus on the through line, which in this case is like the founder and CEO and um and her personal brand, which is in some ways gonna help with SEO as the name changes unveiled, right? But like you just want to be thoughtful about where you're going and is PR at this moment additive, or is it something that um you know, you don't want to pour gasoline on a fire that you don't want to burn, right? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

We talk about that a lot in like VIP days in the past. I I would get into, I remember one specifically that I did a few years ago where their pipeline was full, like they were overwhelmed with leads. And I was like, so now you're telling me that you want to add platform to that, which means you're gonna have more people coming down. You're already telling me you're overfull, you're already telling me your steam team is burned out. Like the last thing you need is to like put more if you think about sales funnel, right? Like put more in the top. You're gonna are you're already overflowing. It's like adding water to you know a cup that's already full. It's just gonna overflow and it's not gonna work. And she ended up hybrid publishing her book um because I think because number one, she's in a niche market, and number two, she didn't really need it. Like it was one of those things where it's like she didn't really need the book, but she just wanted the book. And it's like in that environment, hybrid's perfect. Yeah, totally.

Speaker:

Yeah, and if your book is essentially just gonna be a lead magnet for the business that you're already, you know, it's not like for most people, I think you would say this as well, Meghan, you're not building a book to become a revenue stream. Like most people are not, like books are not money makers by and large. But if you have the right secret sauce, which is partly what you teach, like you can develop your personal brand, your author brand, your book, and have that become a legitimate like business with within a business or revenue stream, I think. But that's a small percentage of the people that want to write books or need to write books or do write books, I would say.

Speaker 1:

I mean, at the end of the day, you know, it's a $30 offer at best in hardcover, right? And then maybe a $25 offer, $15, $20 offer in in paperback. And that's in terms of earning, you know, when you get to, you know, when we talk about advances, we talk about how the investment in someone like me basically evens out your advance. Maybe you get a little money, but I would tell someone to turn right around and invest that money in someone like y'all, right? Yeah, invest in publicity, invest in positioning this in the market, right? Um, and establishing it as the go-to whatever in in your niche. Uh, but you know, I have a book coming out, Hidden Profit by Jamie Troll in October. Like she should spend that money on a publicist so that she then, you know, takes a bigger swing at profit first, right? Yeah. Like things like that. I mean, I think that's really smart. And then in terms of like, you know, that 20, you know, 15 to $30 offer, you're only making, you know, five, 10% of that. So you're making maybe a couple bucks on every sale. Like you're not looking to that book. Yes, it's gonna make an impact. And yes, it's gonna give you the fancy accolades of saying you're a random house author or whatever. But it's a really short window, um, in terms of writing and um publicizing it, maybe a year, maybe a year and a half, two years, three years, maybe at max, maybe four years. If you really have a book that just flies, you know, you could do profit first and you're talking about it 10 years later, but most of the time you're not. And it's like, but that is gonna perpetually then be that lead magnet and that driver into your more expensive shit, which is what we want to create, right?

Speaker:

And even an example like Profit First, like that's partly it becomes a self-sustaining machine because there's a clear business flywheel that's driving it, where like there's a certification, you can be there's so many different arms to that business, and it's so visible in so many different ways that if you're a small business owner in America, you are surrounded by an echo chamber of profit first messaging, which is not because of a one-off book, right? Like it is an orchestrated effort, and it is on purpose. Sometimes what people forget, you know, and you have to have the appetite to be like, okay, do I really want to go on this ride? Like, is this adding the book to the splywheel? One, does it even make sense? And two, do I want to go for the ride?

Speaker 1:

Right, exactly. And like, am I willing to just like you with you all have the money to take this risk comfortably and not, you know, be putting on credit cards. I have clients that do all sorts of crazy shit, or they have in the past, right? And it's like I had a client once who spent, you know, thousands of dollars on his proposal, and he came to me and he said, Hey, like, um, I'm gonna quit my job. And then his job was entire platform. And I was like, That I wouldn't do that, you know. We had that conversation three times.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Kind of reminded me of like when you have to like when you want to convert to Judaism, you have to go talk to the rabbi at least three times, right? I love that. And I was like, We have this conversation three times, and I tell you no every time. I'm like, don't do it, don't do it, don't do it. And then he did it, and he's like, Oh, so when are we gonna send this proposal at? And I was like, never, your platform's gone, right? Yeah, um, and I was like, yo, in our in-house, I was like, I just feel bad for his wife. Like, I'm never gonna say, I'm never gonna send her an apology or anything because that's all on him, and she probably knows what she's dealing with. But I was just like, Oh man, I'm sorry. Yeah, but I can't control that. Um okay, last question for you. So within the publishing industry, we've generally seen traditional media make less of an impact on everything, basically, right? You get a feature in the New York Times, it's gone the next day, and that really has made a negative impact on book sales. Like we see, you know, when my clients are on the Today Show, there's not much of a jump, things like that. I assume that's true for any sales of anything. But you can tell me if I'm wrong.

Speaker:

And I can tell you why. I maybe I'll first I'll tell you why. Cool. Um, and because I don't think it's universally that way. Like I think back to the way that we got connected with through Rachel Rogers, right? And when she was on Good Morning America, what did she do? But she got the the file, right? And she promoted the heck out of it to all the people myself, I don't regularly watch GMA. I don't know many people that do, except for maybe like my mom, right? Like we're not although not a lot of us are watching like broadcast TV in the morning these days. Um but she made the most of it. She made an ad out of it, she was shouted from the rooftops on all of her owned and social channels so that you couldn't miss it. And I think that that is the piece that often gets lost in why we created this visible uh visibility funnel framework is because people don't think about what they do with it after the headline expires, if you will. So if you want to get the most mileage out of a headline and it's something really significant, add it to your email signature, like as seen in Dwell, as seen in the New York Times, like what is going to make the most sense to make sure as many people that you're interacting with can find that clip and see it. I've even seen like Gwendeth Paltr like screenshot it for Instagram the entire, I think it's Vanity Fair that she was recently profiled in. And she screened because not everyone subscribes, you know, like very few people do. Some people maybe get it on Apple News for free because they can see it that way, whatever. But like she wanted to make sure people could read it so that she got the mileage from that. And I think PR, traditional PR, is still worth it because we all know who Vanity Fair is, right? We might not have read it except for the past two years. That one time in the airport we picked it up and it was great, right? I always enjoy it if I read Vanity Fair, but I'm not necessarily reading it every week. Um, and so I think that's why it's so important to reach people um where they are and to take those screenshots and put the mastheads on your website because the credibility of a name like the New York Times or Forbes or Fast Company or Dwell or Architectural Digest, all of these places, um, that's not going away. At least certainly not in the next five years, I would say, right? Um people have still heard of those things and those brands still have tremendous audiences. So, you know, being able to share that content on your own platforms, tagging them as appropriate will just make sure more people see it and hopefully take whatever action from it that you're pushing.

Speaker 1:

I agree. I think what I want to like really focus on that you just said is that there's still effort. There's no magic bullet, right? You don't just hire a publicist and then magically you make more money. Or like you don't just hire a publicist and all of a sudden your platform problems are fixed and you get your book bill and your agent or whatever. Like it's it's this active thing. Like I think I don't know about you, but I see a ton of like magical thinking um by entrepreneurs about books of like, oh, when I get a publisher, I'll just sit back and the money will flow in. And it's like, yeah, itch, please. No, uh not how it works at all. Like you are, you know, you are the writer, you are the marketer, you are the positioner, you are the publicist, you are everything, right? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker:

Yeah, it's it's a fine line because like I do believe that like we should all try to build lives that have ease in them, right? And I don't subscribe to this model of like working yourself to the bone and burning out and all that. But like, do I think if you it goes back to alignment, right? Like if you feel deeply aligned with your why and you feel called to write a book or to hire a publicist because you have this certain impact aligned outcome that you're trying to achieve, then it shouldn't feel like work, right? It should really light you up to do all of these things. And I think if that's not happening, it's a good time to like do some of that work to check in with yourself and see what's maybe not in flow.

Speaker 1:

I love that. I love that so much because that is really important. Like, I really enjoy these interviews, like they go long or we go out to Tangent Town because it's fun, right? I'm just having a chat with my friend about things that we would probably chat about next time you come to Seattle. We'd probably be like, what's your latest fun client story, or what's the big win, or what are you guys developing in your business? Like, I would talk about sales funnels for fun, you guys. That is sort of like my fun conversation now, much to the chagrin of my husband. But like it is what it is, you know. I think that that's really fun. Awesome. So, Caitlin, how can people get in touch with you? How can they follow up with you? How can they sign up for your amazing email newsletter and get on the private podcast feed?

Speaker:

Yes. So just go to fullswingpr.com. You'll be prompted to join our newsletter, and um, our private podcast will probably have to give you the link for the show notes, Meghan, so they can find that next.

Speaker 1:

We'll make sure. And this is so fast. If this does not show up in the show notes, let me know so I can let my team know so they can put it on the show notes because that's how all this stuff works.

Speaker:

I'll make sure they get it. I feel like you were so this whole process was so organized, which speaks to the operations capabilities of your team that it's been so long since I filled out all the stuff that I don't actually remember.

unknown:

Right.

Speaker 1:

But I was like, who's on the podcast this week? When is this going to air? I have no idea. No one knows. Someone knows, just not us.

Speaker:

But thank you so much for the opportunity.

Speaker 1:

Of course, babe. Thanks for tuning in to the Kind of Big Book Deal podcast. Want to see where you're at on your book journey? Check out my free quiz at MeghanStevenson.com forward slash quiz. That's M-E-G-H-A-N-S-T-E-V-E-N-S-O-N.com forward slash quiz. See you next time.