How Literary Agents Help Authors with Steve Troha of Folio Literary Management

What if the biggest thing standing between you and a book deal is not your writing, but your strategy?

In this episode, Meghan Stevenson sits down with literary agent Steve Troha of Folio Literary Management to unpack what really helps entrepreneurs, experts, and creators land traditional publishing deals. One of the biggest takeaways is that a strong book idea is not enough on its own. You also need platform, positioning, and the right people around you. Steve explains why agents do far more than pitch books. They help shape the concept, negotiate better deals, guide authors through a slow and often confusing process, and protect the author’s relationships with publishers.

The conversation also covers why honest feedback matters more than praise from friends and family, why AI can be useful for brainstorming but risky for actual writing, and why many authors should get help instead of trying to do everything alone. For listeners, this episode is a practical reality check. It shows what makes a book commercially viable, where first-time authors often get stuck, and how to approach publishing with more clarity, patience, and leverage.

This week’s guest is Steve Troha. Steve is a partner with Folio Lit. He has a consistent track record of working with some of the world’s most prominent and pioneering voices. In the past 15 years, he has worked with more than 60 New York Times bestselling authors, including Dolly Parton, Loretta Lynn, Gabrielle Bernstein, Tracy Anderson, Amanda Kloots, Andrew Morton, Kris Carr, Misty Copeland, Vani Hari, Mollie Katzen, The Johnny Cash Estate, and The Grand Ole Opry as well as several of our clients here at MSB.

Steve is currently closed for submissions.

Episode Highlights:
(0:00) Intro
(1:28) Meeting Steve Troha and his publishing background
(2:22) What a literary agent really does
(5:16) Why going direct to publishers can backfire
(12:04) What makes a book project a yes
(15:09) Red flags that make agents say no
(22:02) Why cover and publishing decisions feel frustrating
(24:48) Using AI without losing your voice
(30:06) Why traditional publishing moves so slowly
(34:01) Publicity, promotion, and investing in your book
(37:28) Why getting help can protect your platform
(43:11) Steve’s advice for growing platform and handling feedback
(49:16) Why Substack, persistence, and resilience matter
(51:06) Outro

Have a great idea for a book but don't know where to start? MeghanStevenson.com/quiz


Traditional publishing expert Meghan Stevenson blasts open the gates of the “Big 5”—Penguin Random House, Simon & Schuster, HarperCollins, Hachette, and Macmillan—to share what every entrepreneur and expert needs to know about landing a book deal. 

In episodes released every Monday, Meghan shares wisdom and stories from 20+ years in publishing as well as interviews with authors, literary agents, and editors. She also answers questions from listeners like you. 

Whether you are an experienced entrepreneur with an empire, or are just starting out—this podcast will help you understand what you need to do in order to turn your dream of being a bestselling author into real life. 

Transcript

Who To Trust For Feedback

Speaker 1 0:00

I think don't trust people who you know and love to give you advice. I feel like friends and like it just whenever someone says, oh my God, my you know, whoever they know read my book or heard told me this is a great book idea. I I don't think anything of that. I kind of just like roll my eyes without actually rolling my eyes. Because you know, you have to figure out who can you trust to actually give you feedback.

Show Setup And Guest Intro

Meghan 0:28

Welcome to the kind of a big book deal podcast where entrepreneurs come to learn about traditional publishing. I'm your host, Meghan Stevenson. After working as an editor for two of the biggest traditional publishers, I started my own business helping entrepreneurs to become authors. To date, my clients have earned over $7 million from publishers including Penguin Random House, Simon Schuster, Harper Collins, and Hay House, just to name a few. In these podcast episodes, I will blast open the well-kept gates to traditional publishing. I'm going to explain what every entrepreneur needs to know about landing a book deal without losing your mind. I'm going to share stories, answer your questions, interview the successful authors I've had the pleasure to work with, and probably say platform more than a tech bro. So if you dream of landing on a bestseller list but have no idea how, this is the podcast for you, and I am so, so glad you're here. I'm so excited to have my friend and colleague Steve Troja on the pod today. So Steve is a partner at Folio Literary Management, which means he's a literary agent, y'all, and he has a consistent track record of working with some of the world's most prominent and pioneering voices. So over the past 15 years, he has worked with more than 60 New York Times bestselling authors, including definitely people you know, including Dolly Parton, the lovely lady behind me, Loretta Lynn, Gabby Bernstein, Tracy Anderson, Amanda Klutz, Andrew Morton, Chris Carr, Misty Copeland, Vonnie Hari, Molly Catson, Johnny Cash Estate, the Grandle Aubrey, as well as 13 or more clients at MSB. I have not counted them all, Steve, but it's like a lot. And you are the first literary agent on the pod. So as I warned you, you get all the basic AI. All right.

Speaker 1 2:16

I'm ready for it. And thanks for having me.

Meghan 2:19

Yes, I'm very excited about this. All right, so let's jump in.

What A Literary Agent Really Does

Meghan 2:22

So what do you see as your role as a literary agent for entrepreneurs, experts, and creators specifically?

Speaker 1 2:32

I mean, the the role it evolves throughout the entire process for at the beginning stages, the role of the agent and my role is really trying to figure out what the book should be and where we start. Because hopefully, especially working with a first-time author, we want to position that first book as the first of many. So we really want to think about it in all the right ways from the beginning. So it's being a creative partner, um, and that's working with the author to write a book proposal. A lot of the times that's with you, Meghan. Um and uh so getting the book proposal done, selling that to a publisher. And then um at that point, that's when my role becomes more of a, you know, that's very much on the business side. I negotiate the contracts and negotiate the deal points and the deal. And from that point, the authors, you have a book to write. So that's when I sit back a little bit, let that happen. I'm always here throughout that process, but I kind of turn over the creative vision to the author, the writer, and the editor at the publishing house. And then we really pick things back up once we're starting to think about the cover, the publicity, the marketing, and the whole publishing process. Because I think people are always really surprised by how slow the book world moves. But we all know how quickly time goes by. So it's all it always is here before we know it. So it really, the job of a good agent is to make sure they're your partner throughout the entire process. And even though the role of the agent will continue to change, sometimes it's the role of therapist, but it is it is evolving and it should be when you're choosing an agent, it should, it's you should really just feel like can I can I live with this person? Can I deal with this person for um for the next several years? Because it it should it should feel good and you shouldn't be afraid of your agent. You should be able to go to your agent with with any question you may have. And especially when it's a first-time author, there's going to be the publishing world makes no sense. So to have a partner that can help make sense of it, I think is really important.

Meghan 4:40

Yeah, I always say with agents when like my clients are going out to agents, I say it's somebody you feel confident, like giving your bank account information to, signing a contract for you, and also going and having drinks with. Like you're gonna have fun. It's almost like a real estate agent in that way. That's like the closest thing I can compare to in my own experience. It's like my real estate agent negotiates contracts for me, she deals with my money, and I also want to have a drink with her, right? And so that's like those things are all together.

Speaker 2 5:09

Yeah.

Why Going Direct Costs You

Meghan 5:10

So, okay, sometimes I see, and I heard this recently, so it's top of mind. Sometimes I hear or see would-be authors hesitate at getting an agent because some of them think misguidedly that they can go direct to publishers and editors. So, what is your response to that?

Speaker 1 5:28

The most obvious one is you you're not gonna be able to create competition without an agent.

Meghan 5:33

Um, interesting. I want to hear more about that.

Speaker 1 5:35

Yeah, that that's how a publisher will determine what kind of advance you're gonna get. I think there's a lot of we we've seen this just with some of the celebrity clients that I work with too. It's they have managers that think, oh, okay, I can just why why do I need to work with a litter agent when I know a few of these publishers that maybe I've done books with in the past? And there were a couple of instances where we said, okay, you try to get, you go get your offer, you get a book deal, let us know what it is, and then we'll show you if we can beat it. And in every case that we've done that, we've beaten the offer substantially. So it that is that is one reason. It's it can be financial. Also, a the bigger agencies folio, we have really good boilerplates, boilerplate contracts with the publisher. So we're start always starting at a better place than what an author would be if they don't have an agent. Plus, you really want an advocate. And I don't think it's good when an author is their own advocate. I know, and I think you know too, just working and publishing um before I was an agent, I work so much harder when I like the author. And so it's my job to make sure that the publishers like the author at all costs. They can be mad at me. And and I I like to be the bad cop, but just you know, let the author have the really good relationship because publishers, I used to say that uh a publisher would work harder if they pay a bigger advance, and I believe that for the longest time, but I've come to not. I I think the publisher will work harder. They kind of the people who are working on the books kind of forget what the editor paid for the project. And so I think they work a lot harder when they're just emotionally invested and just like the author.

Meghan 7:24

Yeah, when they like the author, when they're passionate about the book and they believe it has a market and that they need to help bring it to the market, I think is a big deal. So let's talk about folio for a second.

Speaker 1 7:34

Yeah, but even like I think the I think the people on the marketing team, the publicity team, they don't probably don't even know what the advance was that was paid for the book. They're not worried about the publisher making their money back. They're worried about championing a book that they feel strongly about.

Meghan 7:48

No, I agree. I completely agree. So you're a partner at Folio Literary

How Folio Operates As A Team

Meghan 7:52

Management. Can you share a little bit about Folio's position in the overall publishing landscape and maybe how your team operates differently than other agencies?

Speaker 1 8:01

Uh sometimes I forget how big Folio is. I think we have about 35 agents, and we do we cover every genre. So we have agents who do pretty much everything. Um, and we also have a contracts team, a foreign rights division, an audio rights team, um, and a film rights director. So we cover all the bases that the that some of the what people think of as the bigger agencies cover. But uh we're definitely one of the biggest independent agencies. And um so we're really we're really proud of the work we do. I think we we like each other as agents. And if you met other agents, maybe we're not all likable. Um we do like each other, and so we're a big team, and we when we're working on a project, everyone, everyone knows about it, everyone's contributing because we we even have a culture of working as we we often coagent projects because we just the two minds can be better than one. And so if if an author is working with folio, they're often working with two of us.

Meghan 9:11

Yeah, which has been really great for our clients as well, because you know, you're a busy guy, they can't always get a hold of you, but they could get rid of they could get a hold of other folks, the co-agents. I also think something about folio is that you all have different strengths. So, like your strength is a lot in publicity and marketing. We're gonna talk about that for a second and why and positioning, but like often you partner with agents who are more editorially focused. And so it's like this nice background of of a 360 view. And when I talk about agencies, I find it hard to give a comparison to folio because I don't think there is one in the space. There's smaller places, there's bigger places, but there's not this nice medium place, the large independent, like you said.

Speaker 1 9:53

Yeah. Well, thank you. No, we're we're proud of the reputation we have, and and yeah, just the the mind melds that can happen with with our model.

Meghan 10:01

Um is pretty cool. A hundred percent. So, how did you get into agenting?

From Publicist To Literary Agent

Speaker 1 10:10

I was uh I was a I started out as a publicist. I was uh I worked for a literary PR firm and then I worked in-house for a few years, and then an agent came to me and asked me to work for him. I think I think we were in a lot of the same meetings together when he would bring his authors through. And I just I always thought like when I saw agents, I'm like, oh, that's the seems like a really cool job. I I always, you know, I was always too late to the process when I was working in-house. Uh, because I would when I was working on as a publicist for a book, everything was already set. Like there was usually the the cover, it was already a cover, the concept was already fully, you know, fully baked. And I just I really loved the idea of coming in sooner and just being a part of that process and really contributing. So I had always had a lot of ideas that really didn't matter, you know, you know what the what the book should be called. And then when this agent gave me this opportunity, I I jumped at it and and then and then jumped, um, and then went to folio. So I've been a few years.

unknown 11:22

Yeah.

Speaker 1 11:23

Um, not a founding part. Folio's been um around uh I think 20 years, yeah, 20 years this year, and I've been folio about 18 years.

Meghan 11:30

Okay, cool. Yeah, because our our careers map pretty closely because I started at Simon and Schuster as a fucking intern in 2004. Which is crazy. We're getting old. I know, I know, but it's like it's so funny to think about that. Like I had a flip phone when I started in publishing, you know.

Speaker 2 11:51

Yeah.

Meghan 11:52

I love it. I love it. Okay.

What Makes A Project A Yes

Meghan 11:54

All right. So this podcast is for entrepreneurs, experts, and creators who want a book deal. And a big part of that obviously is landing a literary agent. So when you consider projects and authors, what makes a potential project or a client a yes for you?

Speaker 1 12:09

It's a lot of factors. I mean, part uh platform is definitely a big piece of it, which is annoying. I I the platform is just the first thing, I think. Maybe the second, tied for the first of what publishers are looking for. You know, really great idea plus platform equals something. And platform is something that it's not always defined. It can mean, it can mean many things. It could be a big Instagram following, it could be really great credentials, it could be a huge mailing list, it could be a lot of things, but it's always a frustration. Um because you know, and some some people are like, okay, how many Instagram followers do I need to write a book? I'm like, I I don't know. A lot, but it's not the only thing you need, or maybe you don't need any, and maybe you have a really great sub stack. So I already forgot what the question the question was. Well, it makes sense. But I think we did answer.

Meghan 13:10

I mean, we talk about that a lot, right? Because like we've seen clients, not us together, but we've seen clients that like they had a great platform, but the idea wasn't strong enough. And then they've had an idea strong enough, but the platform wasn't strong enough. So they have to walk together, and it's it's yeah, it's not, it's funny, it seems hard, but it's for the clients that like get an obvious yes, and we've worked with a lot of those people who've gotten multiple offers and went to auction and all these things. Like, I feel like they very much like work together. Like the idea and the platform work together, as long as that author wants that entrepreneur, that expert, that creator wants that big platform, wants to be able to sell at scale, wants these big things. Because I do think that a lot of times people that want to be authors want to sit in a cave and write. And that's not how traditional publishing works, at least, not in the spaces you and I work in and how-to self-help business, how-to books, right? So like it's it's just interesting to see that dynamic of like the biggest audience for us is people that need to grow their platform. But then how many of those people actually want the result that's gonna get them the deal? It's this chicken and egg kind of conundrum.

Speaker 1 14:23

Yeah, and I I mean I want to be excited about what I'm working on too, you know. So it has to, it does have to be that that mixture of platform, really great idea, um, and then just excitement. And you know, we we see a lot of stuff, so sometimes it's it's hard to get excited, but we still do. Um we're not total, we're not totally jaded, but yeah, it's I feel like we see a lot of the same thing over and over. So I think it's whenever we see something fresh, and I don't know if there's ever a new, fully original idea, but when it's presented in a new and fresh way, it's it can be really exciting, and it can be really exciting just to see that come to fruition.

Meghan 15:07

No, I completely agree. Okay, so how about a no?

Red Flags And Bad Motivations

Meghan 15:11

Like, what are some red flags that you're like, never do this again, please, authors?

Speaker 1 15:15

What are some red flags what authors should never do? Um, or red flags for me.

Meghan 15:21

Things that make it a no for you. Yeah.

Speaker 1 15:25

I want it to be fun or enjoyable through the whole process. And if I get an immediate sense that the that the author is gonna make that not the case, that'll be that gut feeling will make it a no for me. It's just I what I work from a life's too short mentality. You know, this is this this job as an agent can be, you know, it's it can be really emotional because it's tapping into you know to be a good agent, you have to be good at business and you have to be creative. And those two things are not often, they don't often overlap. And so it um trying to use every part of my brain to do that, it's sometimes it's just it's it's an exhausting because it's an exhausting job. And so if it doesn't feel like a true partnership, don't want to be in that partnership. And so I think you know, I'm sure you've been doing this long enough where you just you know uh your gut feeling will tell you, do I like this person? Do I want to be working with this person? So I don't know if I have a a an exact thing that would make me say no, but it more I'm just as we get older, we trust our gut a little bit more. So um I think some red flags for me are when someone is just only about the money. Because if you're gonna write a book, I don't know that money should be the motivator. At the same time, I don't think this would be really great for my career to have a book is should also be a motivator. It should be something like, okay, I really want to write a book. This is something I believe in fully, and it just I have a passion to do it. Um, and so I think knowing what the intentions are for them writing a book is important and it and it if it's about the money, you you might be in the wrong business. Um but that's not to say you can't make a ton of money off of off of publishing, because you you definitely can, but I think that when that's the motivating factor, it just doesn't feel as good.

Meghan 17:30

Yeah, there's something to that, right? Because you and I both know, and we have clients who are like, hey, I want a six-figure book deal. And the reason they say that, sometimes it's their ego, a lot of times it's their ego, but sometimes it's actually like, no, that is actually a marketing piece for me. Or that's where the money starts to break, where like I start to make my investments back in terms of like hiring our team to help you write the book and hiring our team to help you get that deal and get that introduction to you, right? So, like there is like that practical, but then also that emotional ROI that happens. Um, and actually, it's so funny. I mentioned earlier in the podcast that we worked a lot together and I checked our receipts. So we've had at least 13 projects together with more than $2 million in revenue. And I say at least because I counted once and then I was like, oh, I forgot this person, I forgot that person. And I'm that is not that's not actually even when we take all folio, I'm pretty sure it's like over $5 million because we had one really big deal with another agent at folio that's not you. And there's a couple of near misses where people might have I can think of one or two clients that later came to me and was like, oh, I fucked up, I picked this other agent instead of Steve. And so it's really funny to think about that. Um, and I'm taking it.

Speaker 1 18:43

I will say, yeah, I'd like to toot your horn too, because we we say this often in the aid within the agency is when we know that Meghan has done a a book proposal or is working with someone, we drop everything to look at it because Mehgan no one does proposals better than Meghan. I know that. And I I it's just there's something where we almost feel bad for not having more editorial feedback on the on the proposal when when you send them in. But uh you just you you know you just have a secret sauce that you know what to um yeah, what agents need. I think you're gonna know you know what publishers need and you know what the agent needs to give to the publishers. So and somehow you know how to get it out of the authors.

Meghan 19:32

So I always tell people like new agents who don't know us. First, my conversation is like, dude, you're missing out. And second, um it's like I'm writing for Edboard, which is this unique position where like the editor's excited, the agent has been excited and offered representation to my client. The editor's excited, they take it to a meeting where they have to then get the approval or the buy-in from all these other people who may have not read the proposal and might have a lot of preconceived notions about books on education or books on business for entrepreneurs or books by black authors or whatever it is. And so I'm already trying to anticipate all of that, writing the proposal, right? Because if I can do that, then I can overcome those that biggest hurdle. Because as an editor, it's like Edward is your biggest hurdle to buying books, to acquiring books, right? It's Edward is the challenge. It's not if you're good at relationships and and

How Editorial Boards Actually Decide

Meghan 20:27

wining and dining and cocktails and coffee, like you'll get the agent projects. That's not a problem, right? Yeah, but it's this idea of like winning over the rest of the people that like maybe earlier on my career I didn't realize the importance of that, and like now I'm making up for it.

Speaker 1 20:42

Right, right. Well, also, it's I mean, publishing is in the decision-making process is built up of people's just like own experiences um with similar books. And that's why you know so many times we hear, oh, I we I've done a similar book like this, and it's just I it just doesn't it's not gonna work, or I can't see how it's working, or you know, so people will will come if if if they worked on a book and just a horrible experience and your book is remotely similar, I think just their gut instinct is just to run away. Um, so it's just it's hard because it is such a you know, from that point of view, one person in that editorial board or the editorial room can have an experience with a book that could just kind of kill it.

Meghan 21:31

And there's a lot of assumptions. Like I remember I had a client who was like, So we're gonna do like data on this, right? And I was like, no, there's no, there's no surveys, there's no testing, there's no like we're not doing any of that. It's just somebody's opinion. And she was like, What? And I was like, Yeah, I was like, now if you want to do that on your own and come back with like, hey, this is data validated stuff, they'll listen to you. They might still ignore it, but they'll at least like be. Polite about it, right? But like I was just like, it's so funny. Especially now as data becomes more of like a thing, right? Like I could go right now and say, hey, my email headline didn't perform. Like, what should I do next time? And and AI will tell me exactly what to do, right? Versus publishing where it's still very analog and still very individual.

Speaker 1 22:22

Like it's it's yeah, covers aren't tested. You know, it's like there's you know a few people in a room and one person likes it.

Meghan 22:30

And a lot of times too, it's it's so fugly. I've seen so many fugly covers over the last two years. We tend to stay out of cover discussion, but I was like, dude, if we're like an author asks us, a client asks us, hey, what do you think of this cover? And it's fugly, I will say it is fugly. Go back and talk to your agent and get them to to move on this because that's not okay. Right now, if they're happy with their fugly cover, I'm gonna stay quiet.

Speaker 1 22:54

I mean, people do have different tastes. So um I I and one thing that uh about covers, it's I always tell my authors that you're probably gonna hate your cover the first time you see it. And and the editor's gonna come to you and say how much they love this horrible cover. It's they're the editor has to speak on behalf of the publisher and pretend they like it. And chances are they hate it too. And so you know you're not gonna the publisher is not gonna allow you to have a book cover that you hate. And so that just that's why cover approval in a contract is when you don't get it because you're not going to, it hurts, it hurts because you're like, oh my god, I want to love my cover, but you will end up loving your cover. Um and it it's just because the publisher wants that because they know this is your baby, you're gonna work harder to promote it if you love it. And so it just it's a it makes sense financially and emotionally to get there with you. I think you know what's not helpful is if you just say, Oh, I hate this cover, it's fugly.

Meghan 24:05

Yes.

Speaker 1 24:06

That's not helpful. Like to give specifics of what you don't like, of what actually it's more important to give specifics of what you do like. You know, I I think early on in the process, it's it's good to create a mood board of just okay, these are covers that I just really have loved over the years. And so to for publishers to see your inspiration and to see your vibe, I think can be really helpful. So they're not starting from uh, you know, just a totally you know blank slate, a clean slate. And so to be to be helpful in that cover conversation makes all the difference.

Meghan 24:47

Okay, Steve.

Covers That Work And Covers That Don’t

Meghan 24:48

So I know that you've seen like the shit on social about chat GPT and M-dashes. And when I went in to, I use perplexity personally, but like when I went in and asked about writing a book proposal, what the AI shot back is actually pretty good. And the bird has joined the podcast, so the uh white-throated sparrow has joined the pod. But so what the AI kicked back was actually pretty good. What is your take on AI and if authors can kind of get away with using AI to write their book proposals or even their whole books?

Speaker 1 25:25

Well, I'm a big fan of the M-Dash, so I'm not willing to get it up, give it up, um even though now I'm really self-conscious about it, extra self-conscious about it. I think AI is a good tool to bounce ideas off of. I think it can help with maybe it can help you figure out the basics of the idea you should write. I think it's good for titles. I think it gives a lot of okay suggestions, and you can kind of look at all of them together to make the magic happen. But I think using AI to wrote write a whole proposal, I just think you can I can sniff it out, publishers can sniff it out. Um I just I'd be very careful with it. Um, but I would I I'm not opposed to using it as some kind of you know creative brainstorming partner. Um yeah. But but yeah, I just it when I get a proposal when it's obviously AI, it just it really turns me off.

Meghan 26:28

Um well, especially when we consider that generative AI models for the most part are backed on stolen copyrighted works, it's like, come on now. So, like what we see as collaborators often when we get most of our contracts are in-house generated, meaning that my lawyers created them. But like once in a while when we work with a big talent agency like William Morris Endeavor, a creative artist, they create the contract, which is fine. And we've had to do AI carve outs, meaning because they're saying, hey, don't use any AI. And we're like, no, we're gonna use AI transcripts that don't train on the transcript because otherwise you don't want to pay us for human creative transcripts. Those are really expensive. Or like we use it for research. So, like a lot of times my clients will spout off some study and I'll have to go find it. AI has made that way faster. Um, but I'm still reading the original study because I have found multiple times where like I've gone into what yeah, what AI recommends and it's not right. Um, and so that's just something to consider as well. So that's really, really helpful that you all know. Hey, like we can spot these. I kind of think about it as like you're copying off the kid in class. It's like everyone, the teacher knows the teacher's not dumb.

Speaker 1 27:39

Yeah, yeah, and the teacher is getting smarter as you know we figured this out through that.

Meghan 27:46

Hopefully, hopefully the teacher's also there's some really hopeful, like hopeful stats around AI and adoption and how people are like, we are not okay with this if it's gonna like ruin our water, take away our electricity, charge our, you know, run our bills up. We're not okay with this. Like the population is like very anti-tech right now on that. So that's hopeful for our industry, especially.

Speaker 1 28:10

Yeah, but I I think that it's allowed people to be lazy, even like when I've seen proposals be sent to me that are sound like AI, sometimes even the way they're formatted and the line breaks in between, it will they'll leave it in. It's like, can you just maybe pretend?

Meghan 28:27

Yeah, just clean it up, do a little bit of work, like come on now. Yeah, no, I get it. I've um I recently had an opportunity to to work with the company type forum, and the person who evaluated all the submissions was like, there were some really obvious, like they just asked AI to fill it out, and we were not about that. And I was like, Yeah, I took you know 10 minutes of my time to fill it out, like it was fine. Um, and that's what won me the competition, right? It's the human created stuff is what's gonna stand out amongst all the AI slop.

Speaker 1 28:58

Yeah, and there it's it's and then if you're thinking about doing a book, you have a lot of original ideas that you should share that aren't gonna come from from that.

Meghan 29:08

So and that you shouldn't put in degenerative AI. No, that's your money, people. When you put all your money into uh into a computer that's gonna take your money, I don't think so. Like people don't think of it that way, but that is what it is.

Speaker 1 29:23

Yeah, and as an agency, we're spending a lot of time just talking about it, thinking about it, because it is it is a whole new world. And um, but yeah, it's it's not going away. That's we we know that.

Meghan 29:36

Yeah, the cat is out of the bag. The model is released on the window.

Speaker 1 29:42

And the bird was sound like she was out of the cage.

Meghan 29:45

Yes, the bird is definitely out of the cage.

AI In Proposals And What Backfires

Meghan 29:48

Outside of covers, where do you see the most friction between authors and like the publishing industry in general? Like, where do you see that as an agent? Like, where do you see those where do you have to jump in most often?

Speaker 1 30:02

I think there's there can be a lot to be frustrated about in publishing. I think one, authors don't seem to understand why the process takes so long. Um I don't think everyone really respects deadlines the way they should because you know, if you want to set up your book up for success, you give it the time, you let it, you let it bake. You really you the the publisher just doesn't like nine months to a year just to so they can slack off. They want to like really just set it up for success. So I think you know, just it can be frustrating how long that that takes, and then you know, like, oh what do you why do they need this much time? Well, because they do. Um, and there are lots of reasons why.

Meghan 30:53

Because there's not self-publishing, you're not the only book on their list, right? So they're doing things by season. They're saying, hey, like we have, you know, they divide season, they divide the year into three seasons, so then there's they're they're like launching the products, right? I I don't think a lot of people, maybe entrepreneurs and experts and creators think this way because they're launching products, but like I don't think people think of books as products. It's it's very interesting because I don't know if any other industry, any other consumer industry has this issue, but like I don't think people think of books as a product.

Speaker 1 31:30

Never really thought about that. I mean, I I just don't think people think about that. You really you want to the publishers need to sell this book in. They need to get librarians excited for your book, they need to get their sales team excited for this book, who's gonna get special accounts excited, who's you know, they're they're really trying to get it into the right places, you know. And sometimes sometimes a publisher will look at places that aren't bookstores, you know, maybe really trying to meet meet buyers where they are and book buyers. And so uh maybe your book belongs in an airport or specialties store, you know. And also books take a while to print, they have to be shipped from the printer to the warehouse, and then they have to be shipped from the warehouse to each bookstore. And you know that and that does take a while.

Meghan 32:21

So it really is longer than just uploading to KDP.

Speaker 1 32:26

Yeah, yeah. But you but you want you want to be able to have early copies of galleys or arcs, depending on what publisher calls them. You know, it's you might hear galleys or arcs. Um, and you want to be able to send those out to people to get blurbs or you know, to some early media. So um again, again, I don't remember the question because I just went off on this.

Meghan 32:51

But um it's all good.

Speaker 1 32:52

Yeah, is that was it the was it about the process and the the frustrating parts of it?

Meghan 32:57

Yeah, it was about the friction point. So just to listeners, some jargon explainers is like galleys or arcs, which stand for advanced reader copies, are like early versions that aren't complete. So often they'll have like a stand-in cover, or they'll have like they won't be proofread, and they're mostly for endorsements so or blurbs, which are like when people say, Hey, this is the great greatest book ever, right? Or they're for press, or they're for people in different sales accounts that want to read the full book but don't want to read it like in a PDF. There's electronic versions of these things, there's paper versions of these things. Once in a while, I know there's a book talker in my area because there's arcs in of fiction books in um in the little free libraries. And I was like, oh, there's someone here that like either works at the indie bookstore down the street or is like a book talker because otherwise this wouldn't be here.

unknown 33:53

Yeah.

Meghan 33:54

Yeah.

Publishing Timelines And Publicity Reality

Speaker 1 33:55

Yeah, other other friction points. Um, everyone gets disappointed with publicity because publicity, especially now in the world that we live in where there's so much breaking news. Um it's hard to break through that. So publicity is often a disappoint a disappointing thing. And that is that is a reality of today's time. You know, I think so that that is a friction point of why why aren't I getting more? I I think I I think everyone should, you don't want to when you publ when you take the time to publish a book, when you you know suffer through this process, you don't want to have regrets when the book comes out. You don't want to say, Oh, I wish I would have hired an independent publicist or something. I think, you know, if you're able, I think that's when you're like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna reinvest in this. I I tell off my authors to take a big chunk of their advance if they get one and put it right back into making the book work.

Meghan 34:55

Right. That's the most important thing, I think, too. And that's like what we say to our authors as well. It's like you want to invest in the leverage of hiring somebody like us, right? Like Erica Jordan Thomas, who's our shared client. She came to me and the it was like a couple months into her book deal, and she was like planning to write it herself. And she literally showed up and said on the call and was like, I realize that I'm the only one that can do my quarterly planning for my business. I'm the only one that can do all these Instagram reels I do. I'm the only one that can host and plan my live event. She's like, You can write my book. And I was like, Exactly, because I get you leverage, right? And you don't even like for her, because she already had a course that explained most of what was in her first book. Like, we didn't even need to talk every week. And she, there she is, a fully written book that she's really proud of that she wrote. It's all her information, and she she had all this leverage during the writing of the book. And so it was very, very helpful for her. And then also that timeline allowed her to prep for it. Because if you're a six, seven, eight, nine-figure entrepreneur, you don't have like it takes you a few months to like develop a launch for a new product, which is basically what you're doing for a book, right? So, like, yeah, hopefully our clients are so busy that they don't have time to write their book. It's not the best use of their time. Um, it is better use for us to for them to hire us and get leverage. We just signed a new kind of side deal with clients we share who are corporate consultants because they were like, hey, the publisher asked us for this marketing information. You guys know this, why don't you just write it and we'll pay you? And I was like, Yeah, that's a great idea. Let's just do that, right? So, like those sorts of things make a lot of sense. It's leverage. Um,

Collaborators Help Protect Your Platform

Meghan 36:38

they could be writing these things and it'd take them two days and it'd probably be, you know, not great, versus us doing it in like a day and it's wonderful and exactly what they want. So it's just like, where's your leverage?

Speaker 1 36:51

Um Yeah, I think I think people should be more forgiving of themselves and just allow allow someone else to to do it with them, to do it for them. I think it a lot of people are like, okay, if I'm gonna write a book, I'm gonna do it themselves. Because it it I think it feels good to say that. I think um maybe it doesn't feel as good to do that for everyone, but also, you know, it's when you're working with an expert to have your book completed by them or you know, written written by them. I don't even use the word term ghostwriter anymore. I just use collaborator because it really is a collaboration. It's taking all the information in your head or in your courses or on paper, wherever it's living, and and distilling it into something that really makes sense. And you I think a big mistake that an author can make is taking away time from what got them to the point of getting a book deal. You know, it's okay. You have a platform because you spent the time doing XYZ. When you take when you stop doing that to write a book, you're hurting your platform.

Meghan 37:57

Yes.

Speaker 1 37:58

So I think it's really important to just give yourself permission to to get help with this. It shouldn't, I think most people don't realize that most people have some kind of outside help. And you should have other eyes on it to to help make it as good as it possibly can be, because you a book really works when a book is really good.

Meghan 38:22

Right.

Speaker 1 38:22

It's not to say really good books always work, but you know, it it's it's when someone can say, Oh my god, this book changed my life, you have to read this when a book can really take off.

Meghan 38:33

Yes, and that's what we want, right? Because the platform establishes it in the market. But then once you have those readers, the biggest word of mouth, whether it's fiction, nonfiction, traditional, self, hybrid, whatever, is the handoff, the you need to read this, right? The amount of people that have come to me and said, Oh my god, you're behind rich AF. And I was like, dude, Vivian's been our client for like four years. Have you not heard me talk about this ever? Apparently, you you do not listen to the pod, right? But the idea of like, I was like, Yeah, you guys all read Rich AF, and you all know Vivian because she's got like fucking 10 million followers across platforms or something crazy. But I was like, that's the word of mouth of like, hey, I read this book here. You should follow this person, or like, do you do you follow Rich BFF? Like, it's that organic uh word of mouth that still makes books best-selling books, right? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 39:27

Yeah. So I I think it's it's almost always worth the investment to just have some help.

Meghan 39:34

Amazing. Okay.

Why Meghan And Steve Win Together

Meghan 39:36

So we talked about tuting our mutual horns earlier, but why do you think you and I particularly have had such a successful partnership? Because you are by far our number one agent that we work with.

Speaker 1 39:48

I I think it's just because we could speak freely to each other and you know, we're just we we can just shoot each other a text, which all of my authors we, you know, we have that relationship with. But it's when you're when life's hard enough, and so and so is publishing, but when the communication between two people can just be easy. Um I think we have a seamless um type of communication where we're just we don't have to have the formalities. It's just like, you know, if I haven't responded, you were like, what the fuck? And I'm like, um I'm usually nicer than that.

Meghan 40:28

I usually give you two unreplied texts, and then I'm like, hey Steve, what the fuck? Come on.

Speaker 1 40:33

And I'm I am a terrible texter. But I still I still encourage uh I still encourage texting. Um but but yeah, I think we just work together. One one, I think we trust each other. I mean it's and then just the the years of working together um is yeah, it's we have fun doing it.

Meghan 40:55

Yeah, we definitely do. I mean, I think the first project I sent you in 2019, it was an author, Rachel Rogers, that we both work with, and I was so like, I was like, she's a big deal, she needs a big agent. I was like, who do I know? And I was like, Steve Troha. I was like, will he answer my email? I don't know, let's just try. And then you answered my email, and then I was like, okay, cool. And then we got her a six-figure deal, and I was so excited about that. And then starting when we changed the business, when I changed the business in like 2019, 2020, and ever since then it's just been like deal after deal after deal after deal after deal. And I think it is because we think alike um and we have the same taste. And I've actually used you in the future as a shorthand when I talk to editors especially. I was like, I do Steve Troja like books. I do a ton of books with Steve Troja, and it's like a shorthand of like, here's my here's like the kind of books I like to do. Um now we have not done any country music books yet together, which is a which is an opportunity.

Speaker 1 41:55

Um you need to do some memoir.

Meghan 41:57

That's uh I hate memoir so much.

Speaker 1 42:00

That's why that's why we haven't done any country music books together.

Meghan 42:04

There needs to be like a how-to. I was thinking about when I was skiing the other day, because this is what I think about when I go recreate. I was thinking about Holly Gleason, who's like the biggest collaborator in like country music memoir. And I was like, oh man, in a different life I would have been Holly Gleason, and then I was like, no, I hate memoirs so much, and I don't really like celebrity books.

Speaker 1 42:23

Yeah, you can drive yourself crazy.

Meghan 42:26

I mean, there's there's a certain amount of that, like you know, not to bring up Viv again, but we have a couple creator clients who dealing with them is like dealing with a celebrity, and the only reason that I know how to deal with that is because of an editor I dealt with a couple celebrity books. Um, and so I was like, oh yeah, this is like dealing with Danica McKeller, right? It's not that different, honestly. It's it's very, very similar. Um, because I did Danica's math books when I was at Penguin. And she's lovely, as always. She's more famous now than she was then, I think. She's been on all the Hallmark movies.

Speaker 1 42:59

Um yeah, and her books did so well.

Meghan 43:01

Her books are I mean, she's great. She's a fantastic author. So, all right. Last question for you that I ask all the guests that come on.

Platform Growth Advice You Can Use

Meghan 43:09

So the folks listening and watching this podcast are entrepreneurs, experts, creators who want a book deal. The data that I have, and this has stayed consistent since we launched our quiz, I think in 2022, is that the majority of these folks need to grow their platform and the ability to actually sell their books before pursuing a deal. Given all of that, what would your advice as a literary agent be, as someone who's been in the industry for a minute, about growing platform or like developing ideas?

Speaker 1 43:40

That is that is a good question. That is one that I haven't thought much about. I mean, it takes time. It's I I and it's frustrating. I think it's just well, one, don't buy followers. Publishers can see right through that pretty quickly. I think just really. I'm sure it's frustrating. I haven't ever worked at trying to gain followers because who would care to follow me?

Meghan 44:08

Um, you could be an influencer, like there's an opportunity for a literary agent influencer lineup.

Speaker 1 44:14

Just for for another agent. Um, but just that I imagine it's really stressful to to really just try to figure out how to get people to pay attention in a world where everyone's competing for it. And so yeah, I think just then as soon as you do figure it out, then it changes, right? So so I think just if you if you're that passionate about it, stick with it. I think I think don't trust people who you know and love to give you advice. I feel like friends and like it just whenever someone says, Oh my god, my you know whoever they know read my book or heard told me this is a great book idea. I I don't think anything of that. I kind of just like roll my eyes without actually rolling my eyes. Because, you know, you have to figure out who can you trust to actually give you feedback. And I can trust Meghan to give me feedback, but I can't trust my partner, I can't trust my mom, you know, because one, it's not an area that they work in, but also they're gonna protect me. So I don't even know that authors give each other great advice because I don't I think they're the worst.

Meghan 45:24

I think they're the worst. Like I was like, we had a client who like sent their book out to like 15 people, and I was like, this is not going to end well, and it it was okay. Uh, I think because I was there to be like, yes to this, no to that. Did you consider this person's opinion when they gave it you this advice? Like, because authors are can be salty about each other's success.

Speaker 1 45:48

Yeah, there, yeah, there's like the competition. I also think authors lie to each other. I see it a lot with money when people are like, Oh, we got uh X amount of an advance. I'm like, I know they didn't, but um, I've heard it about I've heard about advances that people have gotten that were my authors and just know that it wasn't true.

Meghan 46:09

That's not true, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 46:10

But uh I mean everyone I think most people's intentions are good uh when giving advice, but just pay attention to who you're getting advice from. I think realize that this is a it's not an easy world, it's a painful world. It's when people compare writing a book and to giving birth. I think that's I mean, I've never given birth, but I hear it's hard. Um and I think that's a fair comparison to to making a book is it's you give so much of yourself to do it, and then you put it out into the world, and it's gonna be an emotional thing, you know, because maybe not everyone loves your baby as much as you do, you know, and it's just when and I think that's why so much of what an agent does is almost a little bit like a therapist, because it is you know, it it's a hard emotional thing to to write a book, but it gets so much easier as you have your you know, your other kids, your other books, and so I think just bearing with it, um knowing that that this isn't that you shouldn't write a book because it's a thing to cross off your list, you know, that's never the right motivation. But other ways to grow your like thinking about growing your platform. I think you can't be afraid to ask for help. Write letters, write letters to people who might give a blurb. Like this, it's not the time to be shy to ask for help, even though it's it's I think it's hard to ask for help. Um it's it's the time to do it though. I mean, um, especially after you have a book deal, you know, to really to be willing to ask for the favors.

Meghan 47:57

Um a lot of times too, we've had deals fall apart over the last two years because people the reason I said yes, because we only say yes to people that I think can get a deal. And the reason I'll say yes is because these people have celebrity connections or really good connections. And then when we get to actually like asking those people, they're like, Oh, I don't know. And I was like, Well, if you're not gonna make the ask, then there goes your platform, right? There goes the thing that made you actually like viable um in this space. But I think in terms of growing your platform with the book idea in mind, but like not growing the platform just to have a book idea because that shit does not work. Like a book is too small for that. But like it's this idea of like you kind of do test putting your ideas out into the world before you get to that big thing. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 48:49

I yeah, and and you know, I think the motivation kind of with like the motivation, like, oh, I'm gonna I'm gonna grow my platform to write a book is like kind of like oh, I want I'm writing a book for it to be a movie, you know.

Meghan 49:02

You kind of just yeah, people definitely do that though. I've I've definitely heard that kind of bullshit before.

Speaker 1 49:07

Yeah, oh, all the time. Yeah, it's like uh yeah. So um I think being known for your writing is helpful. Figuring out how to I think Substack is a really great thing right now to to communicate with people. I I think that's for me, that's a more valuable platform than than anything. If you have a really huge Substack following, you know that one people are coming to you for your writing and your content, and also you're collecting email addresses, you're able to communicate with these people, um, which is not necessarily what you're able to do on Instagram. I mean, you can to some extent, but not, it's certainly not in the same way. I um so yeah, just don't give up if if you're committed to doing this, just keep keep trying, and then don't be discouraged by the no's because even when I submit the best project ever, there's gonna be a lot of half the publishers that I submit to are gonna say no. And it's not gonna be the reason isn't because it's a bad project, it's because maybe it's just it's not the right project at the time. They have someone like that already on their list, and so um really know that no is um is is gonna be you're gonna hear a lot of it.

Meghan 50:27

Yeah, I think that's true about in general. Yeah.

Speaker 1 50:31

Yeah.

Meghan 50:32

Completely. Well, that was really good advice. So I'm so glad you were able to come on the podcast. I know everybody's gonna really love this episode, and you're setting the standard for now all the literary agents that are coming behind you. I can ask them all the pesky other questions.

Speaker 1 50:46

Well, I can ask, I can keep going as long as you want with any and all questions, but um, this was a good start.

Meghan 50:53

Yes, yes, agreed.

Final Takeaways And Free Quiz

Meghan 50:55

All right, y'all. Thank you so much to Steve for coming on the podcast today. And as always, I hope this podcast has been helpful and informative to your book journey. And until next time, cheers to your success. Thanks for tuning in to the Kind of Big Book Deal podcast. Want to see where you're at on your book journey? Check out my free quiz at MeghanStevenson.com forward slash quiz. That's M-E-G-H-A-N-S-T-E-V-N-S-O-N.com forward slash quiz. See you next time.