Why Entrepreneurs, Experts, and Creators Hire Book Collaborators with Daphne Delvaux

What happens when years of hard-earned expertise finally become a book that can help thousands of people at once?

In this episode, Meghan Stevenson talks with employment lawyer Daphne Delvaux about building a platform, landing a traditional book deal, and turning deep expertise into something practical, clear, and useful. Daphne shares how she grew her audience by speaking in a real voice, testing ideas online, and refusing to sound like everyone else. She also explains why her book, Moms in Labor, matters so much, especially for mothers trying to understand their rights at work.

One of the biggest takeaways is that strong content does not come from sounding polished and safe. It comes from telling the truth in a way people can feel. This is a great listen for entrepreneurs, authors, and experts who want to grow their platform, share what they know, and build something that lasts.

Daphne Delvaux, Esq. is an employment lawyer and trial attorney. She is the Founder of Delvaux Law, the nation’s first and only law firm devoted to mothers’ rights at work. She has been graced with the prestigious Outstanding Trial Lawyer award, elected by her peers.

Daphne is also the creator of the Mamattorney, a platform on a mission to educate mothers on their rights at work and teach them how to advocate for their needs, including extended maternity leaves, financial benefits, telework, flexibility, more breaks, pumping protections, and more, all without sacrificing their career goals. As the only employment lawyer in the motherhood space, Daphne is routinely seen as THE expert on maternal rights.

Daphne offers The Portal through Liberated Mother Society, a membership with attorney-drafted HR scripts plus 1:1 support.

Her mission as a “love lawyer” is to protect the mother-baby bond, help mothers maximize time off, and confidently seek the accommodations they need. She reminds moms that their baby’s needs come first, and that motherhood is a superpower, not something to hide.

Find Daphne on social 
https://www.instagram.com/themamattorney/
https://www.facebook.com/themamattorney

Find Daphne’s “Bundle of Joy” freebie at https://www.themamattorney.com/book/.

Episode Highlights:
(0:00) Intro
(1:33) Meet Daphne and her book mission
(4:38) Why she started posting online
(7:35) How real content builds trust
(14:24) Why she hired experts for the book
(23:18) Publisher pushback and proving demand
(30:24) Helping mothers and employers work better
(40:15) Why books change your business model
(49:01) Daphne’s advice for growing an audience
(55:57) Outro

Have a great idea for a book but don't know where to start? MeghanStevenson.com/quiz


Traditional publishing expert Meghan Stevenson blasts open the gates of the “Big 5”—Penguin Random House, Simon & Schuster, HarperCollins, Hachette, and Macmillan—to share what every entrepreneur and expert needs to know about landing a book deal. 

In episodes released every Monday, Meghan shares wisdom and stories from 20+ years in publishing as well as interviews with authors, literary agents, and editors. She also answers questions from listeners like you. 

Whether you are an experienced entrepreneur with an empire, or are just starting out—this podcast will help you understand what you need to do in order to turn your dream of being a bestselling author into real life. 

Transcript

Expert Knowledge For A Book Price

Speaker 2 0:00

15 years of high level expertise for a book price. Like this is expensive knowledge in a sense, like traditionally, if you were to come to like actually pay my hourly rate very quickly, it would be super expensive.

Listener Survey And Live Q&A Invite

Speaker 0:15

There was never a lack of material or expertise. It was the sandbox was so full, but we only had so much space to build the castle. So just getting at that. And yeah, I think you know, eventually we had such a good time on the calls, it never really ever felt like tough, hard work.

Meet The Author And The Editor

Meghan 0:31

Hey everyone, Meghan here. I would love to hear what you like and don't like about the content I'm putting out, including the kind of a big book deal podcast. You can help me out by answering a few questions online. And when you submit your answers, you'll automatically be invited to an exclusive QA with me where you can ask me anything you want about traditional book publishing. To participate, all you need to do is visit Meghan Stevenson.com forward slash survey. That's N-E-G-H-A-N-S-T-E-V-E-N-S-O-N.com forward slash survey. And thank you. Cheers to your success. Y'all, I am so excited to have yet another success story on the podcast. Daphne Delvaux is an employment lawyer and trial attorney. She's the founder of Delvaux Law, the nation's first and only law firm dedicated to mothers' rights at work. She's also the creator of The Mama Attorney, a platform on a mission to educate mothers on their rights at work and teach them how to advocate for their needs, including extended maternity leaves, financial benefits, telework, flexibility, more breaks, pumping productions, and more, all without sacrificing your career goals. How good does that sound, ladies? But most importantly, for this podcast, she is the brand new mama author of this book, Moms in Labor, an employment lawyer's secrets to protect your baby and your career that HR won't tell you. Amazing book. Welcome to the pod, Daphne.

Speaker 2 2:03

Thank you. Thank you for this beautiful introduction. I'm really delighted to be here.

Meghan 2:08

So before we get started, you're gonna notice if you're watching this on YouTube, that there's another guest with us today. And I'm so, so pleased to introduce her to the kind of a big book deal audience. So welcome, Blair Thornberg. Blair is a senior collaborator on my team, which means that she works with our clients to develop the editorial components of book proposals and helps the experts, entrepreneurs, and creators we work with, like Daphne, who fits all of those. She's an entrepreneur, she's an expert and a creator. So you can be all three, y'all. Blair helps those clients we work with to write books that readers love. So I've invited Blair today because she worked with Daphne both on her proposal and also on her manuscript, and because Blair was sort of the pilot reader for this book, because she had her first child while working on this project, which is a very important piece of this particular puzzle. So welcome, Blair.

Speaker 3:05

Thank you. I am excited to be here with two very smart gals.

Why She Started Sharing Legal Truths

Meghan 3:09

Yay. Okay, so I want to start out by saying just how important this book is and how proud I am, both as a friend of women who have children and also as an employer of women who have children, to bring this to the women who so desperately need this information that you, Daphne, give in its pages. So I want to go way back to the beginning, to when you started the Mama Tourney. Can you tell us what inspired you to start posting on social media way back in 2019?

Speaker 2 3:40

Um, absolutely. And before I do, I'm just, I just want to say how happy I have I am because you know, Blair and I had our weekly calls for some time, and I really miss you, Blair.

Speaker 3:51

Likewise, it's hard.

Speaker 2 3:54

It's hard and just so fun. And we had a great time. We're always cracking up, and it's just so great to see you. And and Meghan, we had some amazing calls too, and I just feel like now the book is done. I'm just like, oh, can we just keep chatting every week? Is that cool?

Speaker 4:10

Yeah, it's like being an empty nest for now.

Speaker 2 4:14

But the reason I started posting is because I am an expert and I saw what the public discourse was about my work, and it bothered the shit out of me, honestly, because it was really wrong. And so anytime you're an expert in something and you have subject matter expertise, I'm sure you have this too. And people say something online and they go viral and it's completely wrong, and they get a bunch of clut for it, and people are actively being misinformed and misguided, which leads to, in my work, job loss, it leads to women going back to work when they're uh six weeks postpartum and they're still bleeding. It goes to women working through high-risk pregnancies or going back to work when their baby's in the NICU, like really, really important life-threatening situations. And so what I was seeing online is just this super depressing rhetoric around motherhood and work in America. And, you know, what we've always tried to do also with our book is not to play too much into it and not to say that there's no truth to that. Of course, it's very hard. I don't want to minimize the struggle, but I was just really tired of seeing the same uh repeated narrative how women don't have any time off and uh you get pushed to the mommy track to the point where I felt like it was becoming this kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. And what I was seeing in my work as a lawyer is actually there are a lot of rights available, there are options available. There are these laws that have been specifically designed to protect mothers and women during this really vulnerable stage of life. If only they knew one and two are have the bravery to ask for it because that's another challenge. And so I started to share this information publicly. This is really beautiful because uh at the time I was one of the first lawyers that shared this kind of expertise online, and it was kind of new to marry the law and technology in this way. I mean, this is information that's been historically kind of kept closeted. Of course, employers know this, industry knows this, institutions know this, but the people generally don't really know that much about their rights. But I wanted to break open the conversation of um, it's just so terrible everywhere. And I just wanted to create a conversation around what is actually true. And that wasn't easy to do because as Blair knows, and as the book also shows, um, these rights we're talking about are hyper-localized. And so, how do we everyone in a way that honors them and is also uh accurate in turn in terms of their rights? And I think we really figured that out. And I was able to kind of hone that practice over the years of posting, and I think that was important because by the time we came to the book, it was easy because I'd already tested so much, so much of my concepts.

Platform Growth Through Voice And Agency

Meghan 7:09

I want to stop there because I I want to pause based on our data, most of the people listening to this podcast actually need to grow their platform, and what you just said is really important in that by the time you got to the book, you had already tested content, you already knew what your audience wanted to know. In terms of building an audience and a community like you have, which is so rich and in the hundreds of thousands of women, both like in your front-facing stuff online, but then also in your memberships and working with you in paid capacities. What would be your best advice in terms of developing your business and your thought leadership in that way?

Speaker 2 7:45

I love this question because I've actually been recently sitting with that in terms of like how did it grow to across platforms that are now at almost half a million that I kind of built in the margins of a law firm practice and then writing. And I think it's because I mean, I think we assume a lawyer will come online and be kind of boring. But I've definitely been around a lot of lawyers who are boring. And I have to say, in the beginning, I was very careful. I was like, here are your rights, and blah, blah, blah, blah. And it was like great content, but it was also like boring. And I think uh, like, especially with the rise of AI, like we have to be careful. We're not just like giving encyclopedia type information. And then those of us who are experts tend to write these dissertations of like, oh, it has to be complete and full, and just and so you get a little bit stuck, and then you end up doctoring what you want to say, you end up over scripting it, you end up maybe you take it down if a post doesn't land. And what I have done is I have uh between my posts, which are about my work. So, for example, I would do a real about extending maternity leave, but then I do like three posts after that that are just me being sassy. Like most of my content is just me being super sassy and calling shit out. And but also without it being like hopeless and depressing, because if I can be honest, I'm really tired of all of us talking about patriarchy. It's like, all right, what are we gonna do about it? You know, like what are we gonna, what are the solutions? How do we have power in our own lives? And I always try to end on the note of you have agency, you have sovereignty, you have power. And so we call the shit out, we we show the patterns, and then also we say, and here's how you move forward because otherwise we just leave people in this place of frustration, which I find unkind. And so that is one thing that I am really insisting on is like, how do I bring something that is uh actually helpful and encouraging instead of like further further adding to this collective despair? Um, yeah. Another thing I also don't do is, for example, like I don't show other people's trauma on my platform, you know, like people who like take videos of people going some some something that's happening somewhere, and I wouldn't like take that and then like cry about it. Like I find those things a little exploitative and weird. And so I've always done my own thing. Everything I do is completely original. I don't take anything from anyone, and I think people really respect that, and they've come to really see my voice as my voice of like I have a specific, distinct voice, and I think this is one of the reasons also why I was able to get a book deal because I'm not just like a media content house, right? Like I'm actually just my thing, and so people really know what my stance is, and I try to infuse everything with a lot of personality, even my legal posts are just plain normal English, they're funny, even when it's not super funny, but what else are we gonna do? I mean, we're either gonna cry about it or laugh about it. So I decided probably both.

Meghan 10:56

Probably both. I love that though, because there's a lot of like doom and gloom online, and I just noticed it in the vibe of you know, I live in a very blue city in America, I live in Seattle, and it's just very doom and gloom, and y'all, that's so close to learned helplessness. Yeah, that, and it gives up all your agency. So it's just very interesting to me as like a person looking at it. But I think that has been very so successful about your brand, right? You have a very defined perspective, you are actually out there leading thoughts, right? Everybody wants to be a thought leader, but very few people are because they're just parroting the same shit. You're not doing that. Um, which leads me great to the, and I think that's great advice also for anybody. It's like put your spin on it. You know, if you're not sassy, you don't have to be sassy, but if you're funny, be funny. If you're light, be light. If you're really empathetic, be really empathetic. Like that authenticity is gonna shine through your platform and it's gonna benefit you.

Speaker 2 11:50

And don't don't create for the audience. And I think this is the most important thing is that we're as creators, it's like, what does your audience need? What do people need? But then it actually creates this inverted expectation of like you're actually speculating and guessing, and you may be able to figure it out following the algorithm, but in the end, it has to move through you. Like, you have to use your platform as an experiment to get to know yourself better and to get to know your voice and to to really check in like what is moving through me? What is actually my opinion on this? And it may be controversial, it may be misaligned with the conversation of what everyone is saying. Like I did this post the other day, why I'm not raging at men anymore. And like not everyone was ready for that. But I'm like, I feel about this right this way right now, and so it I got sometimes I get stuck in that of like, oh, this is what the audience needs, this is what the people need. But then I think it removes the agency because you're no longer actually you're creating for what is true, you're just kind of following the trend of what you're seeing, and then you're also setting yourself up for failure because then if the audience doesn't like it, you're like, oh no, I failed to meet the expectations, and then suddenly you have a boss again and you're like trying to meet KPIs, and it just doesn't feel fun anymore. And I think it's so important if you're gonna be public and you're gonna have a platform, it has to feel experimental and kind of like RD and kind of like interesting, like a personal growth experiment, so that it's less about the the people and more about like, oh, interesting. I thought this was gonna land, it didn't. How do I feel about that? Hmm, all right. Well, I still think it's really important. Maybe people aren't ready. Fuck up. And so you just like find it, find a way to forge your voice by moving for this super complicated space where you're like punished if you take a week off. That just happened to me. And I just get had to get to a place of like, I trust that people will find my voice if they're ready for it. And not everyone is, that's fine.

Why Hire Pros For A Book

Meghan 13:54

Not everybody is right for everybody else, too. Okay, I love that. That's such good advice, definitely. I want to talk about the book process. So we were introduced through mutual colleagues and we decided to work on this book together. So, what made you want to work with me and my team?

Speaker 2 14:09

Well, I knew what I can bring is volume of information and poor life. But I was also uh listen, like it's just how how I moved, but I was also running a business. I I had I have I have you know, like a law firm, and uh my babies were still young, and I didn't want to do it alone, and I just felt like I'd done a lot of projects alone, and this felt too important to not have a pro. And I just always tell people like you have to trust the pros. Like, don't go to HR to talk about your maternity if you've got to come to someone like me, or you know, you have to figure these things out on your own, but at least like get a resource that is trained on this issue instead of randomly googling it. And so I'm like, okay, if I say that and I believe that, and I believe that about every expertise, I'm not gonna DY this for myself. Like, I'm not gonna like put this together with scotch tape. Like, I'm gonna actually go to the pros. This is an industry that is new to me. I don't understand it, it looks very mysterious, and so I'm I need a pro, like someone to walk with me here. I know I can write a great book, and also there's a very different style to writing a legal brief and writing a piece of content and writing an actual book. Like that is a whole other art I don't master. And so I needed the masters to help me craft this masterpiece.

Meghan 15:44

I love it.

unknown 15:45

Thank you.

Meghan 15:46

I accept being called the master of something. I'm here for it. Okay, so what was the process like working with Blair on the editorial components of the proposals? So, for those of you that don't know, um in my company we split up the proposals, I do all the business sections, and then Blair and I, you know, pick and choose our clients, but like Blair will help out on the editorial components of the proposal. So, what was that process like of the, if you can remember, way back to the proposal?

Speaker 2 16:16

It's been a while. Um, the the this was when I was like really actively litigating. So we had our calls every week where I where Blair just asked me a ton of questions, and um and that was cool because I'd historically been writing everything. So like I have a membership, I have all this content, and that was the first time I'm like storytelling, and I think that's really important because then it it it's it's a bit of like the voice, I think is more aligned and also a little um less serious than when you're just writing, right? When I'm writing, I it's it's hard for me to stay in like how I would explain it to a friend. Um, and so yeah, there was just a lot of questions, and we moved through my journey and like all of the things, and and I remember the first call, I was like entirely off because it was like really philosophical. And then Blair's like, well, what would a mom who is a remote worker do with all of this?

Meghan 17:15

No way, the remote worker mom asked when fair enough.

Speaker 2 17:21

Um maybe I should stop talking about like the spiritual aspect of motherhood and like how I my vision is, you know, it's kind of useless because the book really we were always gonna write a very useful, tangible book that can be used today, not in this future imaginary time when we all get along and everyone bows to the boom. Um, but just like, what are we gonna do if we have to go back to work and we don't want to go back to, I mean, you know, we're not ready to go back to work. And I'm like, okay. So there was a groundedness that, because I, you know, that was really clear of like this is not a visioning book, this is a very practical, realistic, grounded book. And so I think Blair really kept me to that. And so there was a lot of just questions about my work. And I think what's important is that anyone who's been in an industry for a long time, you kind of forget that things are not common sense. And and there's so much in my head that I assume everyone knows that I'm almost always surprised of like, oh, this I thought this was just totally common, like marketplace information that is everyone knows this, right? And so there was a lot of that of like, oh, actually, uh, this is not common information. We should pause here for a second and not just like jump over that because this is uh people don't know this. And I'm like, really? People don't know this? Okay. And so there was that. Um, I don't know if I had my membership back then, but either way, from these calls, we crafted the proposal. And um, yeah, I'll pause there. But that was kind of the first, the first phase is is having these calls.

Meghan 18:53

And Blair, what did you remember from that time in terms of working with Daphne? What was different about this project, maybe, than some of the others?

Turning A Legal Maze Into A Guide

Speaker 19:01

Well, it depends on which trimester I was in, because some of the memories were like foggy. But I you're Daphne was exactly right. I think what I loved about the project was that she did have this more expansive, spiritual, kind of like, you know, supportive voice about like sort of owning this as part of your journey as like a person. So I didn't want to lose that, but I also did have those very tactical questions. So you did have your membership at the time because I sort of like sculpt and infiltrated and looked at what people were asking. I had my own questions, obviously. I had another friend who was pregnant a couple months ahead of me. And so I tried to really synthesize all of that into you, there was never a lack of material or expertise. It was the sandbox was so full, but we only had so much space to build the castle. So just getting at that. And yeah, I think, you know, eventually we had such a good time on the calls. It never really ever felt like tough, hard work. But um, it was it was good to be able to sort of be the like, you know, knowledgeable amateur to come in and like ask the questions of you that people were were really asking. Your members, I also I would like stock a lot of Reddit threads to see what people were having in terms of like questions of how to navigate it because as you said, it's so local. So I only knew outside my backyard. Um and then yeah, really thinking consciously about the best order to present things for people as they move through the book, because you know, I mean, pregnancy is sort of linear in that way, and you have trimesters and things like that. But yeah, I remember putting a lot of thought with you into where to open and how to open and how to bring people in and kind of gas them up and empower them early on before, you know, not that you ever got doom and gloom about things, but before you get to the more like real talk part to just bring that, yeah, some of that expansive spiritual energy to awesome.

Speaker 2 20:53

Go ahead, Daphne. We did because I don't want to minimize like how hard this was in terms of technicality. Like, no one has ever endeavored anything like this before. A book like this doesn't exist. There are books on motherhood and workplace, but none of them explain actually what is maternity leave. And so we had this is a very, very difficult question to answer. And so we did it, but it requires so much technical and like systems language, and we're like, how do we simplify this? And and the reason why no one has done it is because it's very hard to do. And so you'll you'll have a book about mature uh motherhood, but it will have like one or two paragraphs, and then it always reverts you back to HR or to your employer, and so we're very clear about like this is something you need to understand, you woman who is reading a thousand Amazon reviews about the latest gadget. You're like, this is not something you're gonna outsource, but also like how do we explain this? Because federal law, you have state law, you have city ordinance, you have Employer policies, you have insurance policies, you have short-term disability, and then you have the healthcare benefit like system on top of that. So it's like we're in the we're at the center of all these super complicated systems and institutions. And then speaking to a very tired audience. An audience that's also like, why the fuck is this my problem?

Speaker 22:23

Yeah. Let's just do double duty there because I could I could work on the book, but also answer a lot of questions. I I think one thing I remember is that I think I forget what the exact section is called, but you you just drop this bomb where you're like, surprise, there really is no such thing as maternity leave. Like it's not one concept, it's a patchwork. And I felt like that was such a good way of putting it that you like landed on that just crystallized everything you just said, and then you know, gets people to see how it does work and break down.

Publisher Pushback And The Real Need

Meghan 22:52

Yeah. I want to actually talk about that a little bit more. So when we sent out the proposal, you had a literary agent who was already involved and interested. So that part getting you a literary agent was easy. It was almost like just don't mess up this proposal and you'll have a literary agent, which is great. Uh, and happens a lot to us. So that's wonderful. It makes our lives easier. But when we sent the proposal out to publishers, the feedback we got was really familiar, I think, to you as you know, the face of Delvaux Law and Mom Attorney, because it's the same feedback that the women you help get, specifically just H just uh specifically just ask HR. People can find this advice online. So, other than Rageful, how did that feedback from publishers make you feel when you got that?

Speaker 2 23:46

Yeah, there were three specific threads that came that we were confronted with, which really confirm the need for the book. Because the first one was this is too niche. And it's so interesting because motherhood and work has been put in the margins. And what I mean by that is like the experience of motherhood, pumping, morning sickness. Like these are all things we're supposed to like not bring to work, and it has to happen behind closed doors. Like, don't bring it up, don't even bring up your pregnant because maybe you'll lose the project. And uh, you know, and so like there has already been this trepidation around how do you bring the conversation of motherhood to the workplace in a way that is collaborative and respectful to everyone involved. And so, to every time I hear that the work is niche, I just find that kind of offensive because we all come from the mother, and so to to name the mother as niche, I'm like, okay, dude, like you once came out of one. And so, motherhood is the most foundational thing there is, and so there was really this urge in me of like, this is why we need to center the mother, this is why this book needs to exist, because we have to talk about these issues at work, it will benefit everybody because it keeps all mothers healthy and happy, which is great for the children, and we were all once children, and so that was one part of like, gosh, here we go again with the niche, you know, like motherhood being niche. It just it's it's also reminiscent of the experience of when you become a mother, and then it's like, oh, well, you can't go to the wedding, you can't go to the you have to go over here to the mommy and me class, and uh babies aren't allowed here, so you can't go to that, and like suddenly you just feel like you're pushed into the uh edges of society, and so everything I do is about bringing mothers to the center. And then the second part indeed was like, and this was also while we were this was during the first wave of Chat GPT, and so there was this feedback of you can find this online, and I'm like, no, no, otherwise I wouldn't have a job, you know, like if this would be easy to find, because what you have online is one, either government resources and they're not your ally, right? Or you have like random blogs, but all of none of them are gonna apply to you because they're they may not be in your state. And and then uh yeah, like there's nothing that's really comprehensive for mothers explaining the system and also written in a way that teaches her how to advocate for herself, kind of more generally, not just like these are your rights, which it would be kind of boring, but like here's how you wield your power, right? Here's how you yield your power. I mean, and so the book was so much more than that, and also explaining the stories and like, yeah, and like written by someone who really wants you to succeed, as opposed to just the internet, which doesn't give a shit about you. That's just a robot, you know, like they don't care how long uh your baby stays home with you, you know. The the AI Chat GBT doesn't have a beating heart that like cares about the children, and so and yeah, the other piece of feedback was that you should just ask your employer for it, which is we have a whole chapter about. So it's like, okay, cool, bro. You like actually didn't read the proposal.

Collaborative Advocacy With Employers

Meghan 27:06

Yeah, and you know what's crazy to be? Okay, so editors can be wrong. I just want to say that agents can miss big projects, reject big projects, editors can not see it, not understand it, because a lot of their decision making is subjective. Um, a lot of their decision making is not based in facts. We just had a proposal go out that editors didn't get, and it was for their themselves. And I was like, me and Blair were just like, who are you talking to? So our friends say that this book is needed, right? Um and you know, I'm an employer myself. I had to navigate a Matt Leave, and I was so grateful that you were in my ecosphere. Um, and that I, you know, was working with you because what we realized in that process, and I think we've touched on it here, is that every state is different. And I had an HR consultant helping me, which was really helpful. Um but like in terms of that, it was like, you know, no, just because I'm based in Washington state and we have our state has a very generous paid family medical leave policy. If my employee is in another state, then I can't, that's not relevant. And I had to learn all about fucking Nexus, which I never knew. Which is like basically like, do you do any business in this state? And like it was a whole fucking thing. But I had no idea, right? I'd never had employees in multiple states before. It's like the learning curve was there, and so it really, really needed. It was really needed in terms of your book. So I think your book kind of hits on obviously it's from others. I think that's the primary audience, but I do think that for small business owners, for HR people, this is also an important book to read because it does give you the idea of like what your people might be asking for and the accommodations you need to make. And as a business owner, having someone leave. I was just talking to a colleague at a publisher and she was like, God, my best editor is leaving on Matt Leave, and I'm so happy for it, but it's also gonna be a total pain in my ass. Right. And like now we have to figure out all these like stop gaps, and and I I just was like, Oh yeah, I totally see that Daphne's also because you're probably an employer yourself as well, empathetic to the employer side of things as well. Um there's a lot of advocates are not, right? They're all like employees deserve X, Y, and Z. And it's like, well, there's a reason employers aren't giving it that, and it's not just because they're greedy institutions, although they are, but like it, there's there's both sides. So, how do you see your book going forward? Because it's been out in the world for a little while, it's been birthed, it is out of an IQ, and it is out in the world. How do you see your book helping with both sides of these conversations and maybe making those conversations easier?

Speaker 2 29:56

Yeah, since such a good question because I I didn't want to write an antagonistic book. Um, all of us have to somehow survive capitalism. And I'm also a business owner. The first employee I had uh within after a week of hiring announced her pregnancy, and I'm like, oh, I have a very, very fragile brand new business. That this is like actually very hard. And so I was on the other side of it and got really humbled, honestly, because I had been an employment lawyer that has been kind of like leading the charge for the labor side, uh, thinking it's all so easy. And then I learned the hard way of like, wow, okay. And that it's important that that happened before the book came out. Because I think if it didn't, I it may have been a little bit more like employers should just this. And I don't believe in that because it doesn't actually help anyone to be in an antagonistic relationship with your employer. And so the way that we've positioned everything is to be collaborative, in fact, to be kind of the chief educator of legal compliance in your workplace, which is extremely valuable. When you go to your employer and you say, this is what the law says, this is how it works, this is how the system is, you're actually doing risk management, which companies pay a lot of money for. And so this is how we've positioned every conversation in terms of like, we're not gonna teach you to sue your employer. In fact, I don't recommend it. Like, I, you know, and there's other books that that um may advocate for that. And I think I've just been doing this job for 15 years where I'm like, uh, I I I don't I don't think you should. I think you should really try all of these things first and just assume good intent and assume mostly, and this is what we also explain is like everyone's confused, everyone's confused, and also everyone's busy, everyone's trying to do their job, and suddenly you have to become like employment law ninjas. So it's frustrating because no one actually wants to do that, right? And and so it's like who do we trust who has the right information? And so we really walk that line of like, um, yeah, like don't go against your company. It doesn't, it's not good, it doesn't help your baby, you know, like you being in conflict with your employer is hella stressful, and it's just a bad idea. And we don't go in and just like demand and antagonize, instead, like we go in to educate, we go in to inform. And so we've been really consistent with that. And I'm I'm really proud of that because as an employer, what I also know about the employee-employer relationship is that it's often people's only direction to power and to, and often what they do is they will channel every frustration they have about power and those in power to their boss and to their employer, which can lead to this onslaught of like the bosses in the room are laughing, like and that's often the only channel people have, and that's how you end up with just people coming in with all their rage towards the system, right? And yeah, and and it lands on their boss who's like also shaking from stress every day, and so that's where you get to this place where everyone gets hurt, and we just really didn't want to create a train crash. Um, and what's really interesting also, I forgot this part until until I just remembered it, is that one other thing that was happening while they were pitching the book is that it created a little bit of tension in some workplaces where like the staff really wanted it, they were talking about it, but then they couldn't get it through upper management, which is like interesting, you know, interesting that this happened in the publishers industry of like, yeah, like there may be some employers that that don't see it this way, that don't, they don't want their staff to be educated. And so that was also a really interesting thing. And I'm just so grateful that because yeah, there is an element of what we teach that is about not working, right? Like being home with your baby or working from home or uh taking pumping breaks. And so when you bring that message to industry, not every not everyone is gonna be able to digest that.

Meghan 34:19

Not everyone's gonna be supportive, and it's not that shocking, which is where publishing, which is a female-dominated industry, that still has high-ranking men disproportionately in an executive role. So that makes a lot of sense to me.

Speaker 2 34:33

You ended up with a male editor, which I think is fantastic, and he was like this I mean, he's amazing, and he's this like grandfather, like just energy that really grounded the book. And I think what I love about him is that he just really trusted us, like he was so non-uh intrusive. Um and just really trusted us to lead the work forward in a way that we thought the best for the work. And that was really exciting, I think. Just really hands off and just in so much trust from the beginning to the end.

The Modest Advance And Market Cycles

Meghan 35:14

Yeah, that's how I your story too, and uh, you know, this podcast is called kind of a big book deal. And when you did land your book deal, despite all of those, I don't want to call them conspiracy conspiracy theories, but like all of those headwinds, I guess is a good way to put it. So, against all those headwinds, when you did land the deal ultimately with Harbor Collins, the offer was pretty modest. I think it was below what we would say is our standard. So, when that happened, were you disappointed? How did you think? How did you feel? Were you, you know, it's kind of mixed emotions, I would guess.

Speaker 2 35:50

I I was disappointed, and I was also thrilled that we had a deal. I was, and I don't know if this is still the same, you can tell me, but it was so clear that it's very hard to get a publisher to support your book. And you know, definitely possible, but that the industry's changed. They're no longer just like sponsoring any kind of female empowerment book, which they did maybe a couple years ago. You know, it's like it has to be a very specific, useful how-to. And so I was just happy, like, oh, we got through the door. Like that was, and I had this incredible connection with uh Tim, Tim Burgaard of Harvard Collins. We just were really vibing, and I was just I think I was just relieved that I could trust the instinct that I had and the intuition about him because I felt in my body like this works great, this is gonna be great. And I think I would have been more disappointed, for example, if I got like someone else at a higher number, because then I would have been like, wait, what Tim, like what happened to Tim? So that was really good to just be like, oh, I can trust my instinct about him because that was such a great conversation. But at the same time, yeah, I also talked to some friends who are authors, and everyone is like, Well, it just the numbers are not what they used to be, and it's not like a personal indictment.

Meghan 37:15

And particularly in your season, because we sold the the vol the benefit of working with us is that we see it, right? We might have in any given year, we try to go for a million dollars. I haven't gotten, I didn't get that last year. I came close to like 950, 960. But like where where we see it is we get to see these broader patterns. So in the season that you sold your book, so in terms of season six months, three months somewhere in there, all the advances were low. Right? Like we were like, oh, everybody, Daphne only got X amount, Jamie only got Y amount, Michael only got Z amount. It was very interesting to see that because we saw uh huge advances, like probably advances where me and the agent would be like, it went for how much? Right in in the other way in like 2021 post-pandemic. Yeah, uh, and that was because of our forces. But it's super interesting to see those kind of numbers go up and down. And you know, when you have the long view of seeing a lot of deals over time, which I've done over 30 deals since launching my own business, you could kind of see that over time of like, and that's really where we get to detach and say, hey, this doesn't, it's about market, it's about like, you know, uh I paid X amount for my house, but now it's only worth Y on Zillow. Does that mean I overpaid? No, it means the market's changed, right? So it's like that whole idea. So the same thing goes for you, right? It doesn't mean your book was worth X amount of money, it just means that's what the PL at Harper Collins threw off. And that's also why any agent or any reputable agent will tell you that the highest offer isn't always the best offer, and that it's much better to have an editor that you feel connected to um like you did, um Tim, that will see the vision and align with the vision and not try to fuck up your vision in the process of you know creating your book. So like that was really, really important. And also now, and I'm sure you know this, um, you know, with a more modest advance, you get to get to royalties faster because you'll earn out faster, which is great for someone like you, where this book is perennial, right? Um, you and Blair created this book so that it doesn't get outdated next year. And so this book will be perennial, it's for a really wide audience. Um and yeah, it's just gonna end up being a good thing in the end. It's not always a bad thing. I like that that you said you were thrilled and disappointed at the same time.

Book Pricing, Funnels, And What To Gate

Speaker 2 39:45

Well, I also didn't have, I mean, and and listen, this I think this is important to anyone who's at least the first time, is that it wasn't my primary source of revenue. And I think that allowed it to stay fun and to stay experimental and to stay like an interesting journey. I think if you if you're really banking on this supporting your family, then it's I think really hella stressful because it's so unpredictable and you're so kind of at the mercy of the publishing gods and whatever they are up to that day. And that would be my recommendation is like, yeah, like we had I had legal work I was doing, I had my membership. I would say something I had to sit with, and this came up recently actually when I held a book that was more that gave me more attention was like 15 years of high level expertise for a book price. Like this is expensive knowledge in a sense, like traditionally, if you were to come to like actually pay my hourly rate very quickly, it would be super expensive. And so I had to be really sitting with like, am I willing to kind of also undersell my own paid services, you know, and my membership, which is more expensive than my book. And I recently went to a friend who is doing, she's a doctor and she's doing incredible work. And I'm like, I really think you should buy a book. And she's like, Yeah, but I don't want to like undercut my membership. And and so I think that is also an interesting thing to sit with because now I have to actually revise my entire infrastructure because my book is much cheaper than my paid services, right? And this also makes it, but it's also inspiring me to pivot and look at like what else do I actually want to do that keeps that revenue coming in? So that's something that I wasn't fully prepared for because I was just so excited about the book, and then the book and I'm like, whoa, this is really cheap.

Meghan 41:32

Yeah, I mean, actually, hold on, I have it right here so I can look it up. So it is uh $29.99. Yeah, I was gonna say it's $30, but it basically is so that's really interesting. Okay, so I have a funny story about that. So years and years ago, it's probably like 10 years ago, I got on a call with a potential client and they were like, Yeah, I want to write a shitty book. And I was like, What? And they're like, I want to write a shitty book so people fail up into my coaching programs, and that was not the right attitude, okay? I told that person, no, I wasn't gonna work on it because I'm not writing a shitty book for somebody ever. But that concept is used by a lot of entrepreneurs in that can you give people all the advice they need in here? Yes. Do they still want to fucking talk to you? Yes. Do they still want to be in community in your membership? Yes. And the strategy, and I think I personally and Blair too bring uniquely bring this to the work we do because I'm also an online entrepreneur, is figuring out where this needs to end. Right? Where does the $30 advice or the free advice if somebody gets it in a library or you know, friend hands it to them, like where does that fail up? And that's that's what I really want to emphasize is that if we think about this in terms of your business model, maybe this is just an entry point, right? And they realize, hey, I want to talk to other moms in my area, or hey, um, this is something that came up that's not covered in the book. I need Daphne's advice, and so I'm gonna book this consult, or maybe I do need to sue because you know, I read this terrible story, and then Daphne said in the book that they got a lot of money for it. So I my boss is acting like that too. So let me go talk, you know, there's all sorts of examples of that. But I always make sure, and I think it's important for experts, entrepreneurs, and creators listening to this podcast to think of the book as just one more piece of a funnel, whether that is a lead gen piece, whether that is, you know, uh a freebie that you give out when people join your membership. If you're not already doing that, you should. Or it's just the bottom, a loss leader. Yep. So not to compare your your book to toilet paper or paper towels, but when Walmart, when Walmart uh, you know, discounts paper towels to get people to come into the store. People buy stereos or, you know, organic of avocados or things with a higher margin. And so that is a strategy that we can use as creators who.

Putting The Work Into A Book Body

Speaker 2 44:00

write books as well to get people involved and then this is just then your equity play um hey this is an equitable accessible product you can't maybe not everybody can afford to hire me at all even in a consultation or a membership but they can buy this book right yeah yeah and we did that we had some freebies we put in so that like we for example we didn't put all of the templates in there that we wanted to like the email templates those are still inside the membership and and I have to say I was also ready to let it go. Like I was I had been in this I also trust that there's like seasons in our work life and I had been doing this work for quite a while and I kind of wanted to put all of it in a physical form so it had its own body so I could be like now it doesn't live in my body. Does that make sense? I have to and it was like I felt intellectually constipated. I'm like I'm just like in my brain all this knowledge lives like let me put it into another book body which is it has its own physical form. And I have to say since I've done that all of this spaciousness has been created in my mind palace. It's like I dusted out all of these old rooms that were full of clutter and now I'm finally having this space of like oh I want to create this thing and this thing. You know I'm now doing all this work with entrepreneurs and setting up their businesses which is something I've been wanting to do but I was kind of doing the same thing for a while. And so that I really trust also that the book is kind of a celebration like almost a closing chapter of a season of our work life that we then get to refer to when someone needs that.

Speaker 45:38

And it allowed me to now really look at like I want to do something else because we have to keep creating and so I was really ready for that but I was uh it's just something I want to point out that's it's like it it came up when I'm like wow this is really really valuable information um in in a in this book that's the first thing I felt actually when I held it I'm like this is very useful when I so useful I I wanted to add something if I can Daphne because I was struck by just the parallels in what you were saying to like the process of putting this book together. One thing I've noticed really early on working with folks is that you know even as an experienced business owner you don't necessarily have a sense of scope of how long it takes to make a book and the fact that you know the you that holds that hard copy of a book and is like wow this is a great book is two, three, four years in the future. But only you know because we were prepping this podcast and I was rewinding through my calendar I mean I was like freshly pregnant when we started working together and now I have a two and a half year old. So like to think of it in terms of yeah this takes a long time and it's investment, but like things can and do change and grow because that's how time works is such a good thing to keep in mind if you're at the beginning of writing a book or even thinking about writing a book because it takes it takes a stinking long time and it should. It's just there's a lot of steps, there's a lot of thought that goes into it and that's how you create something that's worth as much as it is.

Meghan 47:07

So and now too you have that valuable reference you can say you know to anyone who's asking these basic questions it's in my book it's in my book it's in my book that's better than going into every closet in your mind palace to find each and you know each individual answer and having to like reply to all those DMs and all those emails and all of that it's like versus just having being like this is in my book this isn't like a quick reference it's very valuable.

Speaker 2 47:33

It's so great and I also feel like I wrote it at the right time like I I for example I shouldn't write a book about parenting as young kids. I feel like some people are way too quick to write their books. Like you've got to finish the job you know and and so I feel like with this type of work I have looked at this from every possible angle. I've answered every possible question a thousand times and so I felt very complete I'm like I am the ultimate expert on this so I'm gonna it's time to write it. And yeah so it does take a while and I felt like really when it was done I'm I'm like there is nothing else I can say about this thing. And that's a really good feeling too.

How To Grow Without Beige Content

Meghan 48:14

I love that yeah that is some goals for all of you listening. So last question the entrepreneurs experts and creators listening to this podcast want a book deal but most need to grow their audience and author platform first.

Speaker 2 48:28

So what would be your advice both as a mom a thought leader and an author who has been there and done all of that to growing the audience well growing audience I mean I really track what's alive. So for example I don't have a content calendar I I will just take a quick peek at the feed and I'm like these this is what's happening and everything I do ties into what people are currently feeling. And I feel like if I don't do that my content feels dead or it feels like pre-scripted or it feels like overly prepared and and performative in that way because it's not current and it's not connected to what you're actually feeling. And you can still say a thing but I think you have to be to actually grow and like hit viral post after viral post you have to connect to what everyone's feeling and like the waves of design guys I feel like I serve those really well. And so this is gonna be um some different advice but like don't have a content definitely have like a list of things you want to talk about or like things that interest you or like a content folder but I really tune in with like what feels true today what is real what what do I want to come what I what do I really want to share what I really want them to know. And I think when your content feels very alive and you really breathe a lot of life into it that's when you'll get big responses as well. So that requires a lot of improvisation and trust that you will find the the nuggets and that like the downloads of insight will come but you have to it's a it's a skill and you have to just harness it and practice it. And so over time you will really learn to trust what comes through you. And you can't do that when you're like oh in three weeks I'm gonna post this because who knows like where we are going to be you know and I I really want to meet people where they are and so I think that's how I've consistently grown because I'm like in the conversation and I don't shy away from from controversial conversations from politics or the war or like just what's happening because people it's it's all it's alive it's what's happening right now. And so I my content is not beige. It is very very very opinionated um not everyone's gonna agree and that's okay and we can also hold that of like we maybe we don't agree but we can still be friends we can still get along and yeah uh but if you want like beige scripted content then you're gonna hate it here and so I think because there is so much content so much information so much people are so tired I think what people are really craving is like just someone to call it out like someone to call call it you know um call it as they see it almost yeah see it and just have that bravery to be like I'm just gonna let this be part of the public realm and the public forum and then the town square. And it takes an audience to get there. You've got to have yeah like really good boundaries with yourself too and making sure you're blocking some haters if they're really mean um but yeah growing your audience definitely I mean some like really specific tech hacks that I use with many chat is making sure I get people on my lists. So I always have like a feature where people get in either on my newsletter or my Substack. I also have a feature when a new follower follows me they also get a link to join my newsletter because I just don't trust the tech lords yeah to you know to could to protect my orbit. And so I use a lot of those funnels um Substack I really like really great place to kind of test your concepts and also to yeah like to really grow your voice but I would say yeah like bring what you know and then merge that with the conversation that's happening. Like what is your piece you're gonna add to what everyone's saying on the town square. Because that's really how us humans are naturally evolved. It's like there's just the there's the town square conversation and then we're all kind of in and out of that. Right. But you're just gonna stand there and like randomly share your three tips for advocacy in the workplace but everyone's crying because something you know like it doesn't there's an incongruency there.

Free Resource Bundle And Final Links

Meghan 53:15

Yeah yeah I get that I get that I think that it's like that's great advice. I mean I think to contribute to the conversation that's happening infuse your personality and expertise and your really your voice and then find where what resonates with that because that's what's going to end up in the book and make the book easier too. People underestimate the value of platform building in terms of informing the actual book and making the actual book content easier as well. Y'all this has been a great conversation Daphne thank you so much for joining us. Blair thank you so much for your contributions today. Y'all in addition to a link to buy moms in labor by Daphne Delvaux she's also giving you an entire bundle of freebies called her bundle of joy and what is it like a dozen resources or something very generous over delivered again I'm such a high achiever so there's um a workshop on severance negotiations there is a template nanny contract and a hiring course like how to be a household employer there is a workshop on extended maternity leave there's a workshop on healthcare advocacy a guide on reporting issues at work a daycare compliance checklist and a parental leave calendar based on your state so it's true for now it won't be for a while like forever but for now like while we're in the book launch season I'm like I feel like these resources help implement what we share in the book.

Speaker 2 54:43

And so yeah I just have a kink for completion. Like it's very hard for me to not have like a fully completed body of work uh delivered. Yeah I mean I think it just speaks to your generous spirit too and I mean it's my craft you know precision is my craft and so I'm like it has to be all there.

Meghan 55:05

I love it. So all the resources you're gonna need y'all are in the show notes. So Daphne thank you so much again for sharing all this valuable insight with our audience and sharing a little bit of your publishing story as well. So we really appreciate it.

Speaker 2 55:19

Thank you.

Meghan 55:19

Up to the next one off to the next one all right y'all we will see you back here next week for another episode of Kind of a big book deal and until then cheers to your success thanks for tuning in to the Kind of Big Book deal podcast. Want to see where you're at on your book journey check out my free quiz at MeghanSevenson.com forward slash quiz. That's M-E-G-H-A-N-S-T-E-V-E-N-S-O-N dot com forward slash quiz see you next time