CINEMISSES! The Holdovers

In this episode of CINEMISSES!, Matt and Tug delve into the film "The Holdovers," directed by Alexander Payne. The hosts analyze key scenes that highlight the growth of relationships, the impact of family dynamics, and the significance of empathy and connection. They also talk about how effing hard it was to make this movie as fast as Payne did, and the impact of setting and music on the narrative. After a quick discussion of the band Badfinger, they reflect on the film's portrayal of coming-of-age experiences and the creation of a makeshift family amidst challenges. Tug was recovering from COVID during the recording, so bear with his really shitty voice.

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Transcript

Matt Loehrer (00:00)
You're listening to Cinemisses, a podcast about movies that one or the other of your two hosts just never got around to seeing. I'm Matt.

Tug McTighe (00:06)
And I am tug and we are reminding you that anybody can make a podcast. I'm always I have seen we are here because we haven't. Thanks for joining us on cinema. And action. I'm to get a clapper. Not a not a clap on clap off, but just the well, I don't know if I told you this. I tested positive for

Matt Loehrer (00:23)
That'd be good too though. Do you feel okay? Your voice is the...

You did tell

me. Now, why did you test for that? Were you just not? Okay.

Tug McTighe (00:31)
Coronavirus on Friday.

I don't know. Cause I, cause

we, we had our, you'll laugh, Matt, as you know, we employ little bear graphics and my agency, SAS of RAS marketing, and we are all remote. are a small but mighty firm. And, we had our once yearly in-person meeting last week and three of us came back with COVID. So I guess we'll stick to the remote nature of our.

Matt Loehrer (00:54)
Of course you did, the one time a year.

Tug McTighe (00:59)
of our business.

Matt Loehrer (01:00)
OK, you sound good. You sound a little hoarse, but that's OK. OK, good. You're praying them in. So the good news is that I'll talk more. OK, well, just to get started, I want to give a quick shout out to the smartest person I know in the world. It's not you. You're the second smartest. It's my mom and Laura and yes. Right, your leg hurts. Yes, my mom and Laura. She lives in Dublin, Ohio. She's brilliant.

Tug McTighe (01:03)
I am way better than I was three or four days ago. Hopefully we'll have a negative test tomorrow.

Dang it. Thank you. Number two, default, default, default.

Matt Loehrer (01:25)
wonderful person. When we go into a movie that you or I haven't seen, the person who hasn't seen it in this case, it's both of us. It's sometimes tempting to get so distracted with the notes and the observations and the insights that you want to make that you suddenly realize you're not actually watching the movie.

So my mom had already seen the Holdovers and we were talking earlier this week and she brought up a plot point, possibly the pivotal plot point that I missed entirely because I was scribbling notes. And after we talked about it, I profoundly changed my take on the movie or maybe just deepened it. But it definitely kind of sent me in a new direction. I felt pretty stupid. But I guess the point is sometimes we get so caught up in what we're doing, we miss the point of why we're doing it.

Tug McTighe (01:58)
.

Matt Loehrer (02:07)
Or the other point is before you do a podcast, should call your mom and see what just caught your mom.

Tug McTighe (02:10)
just call your mom. We should just both.

should have a pre-production meeting with her. ⁓ Now all of that lovely hi, Ann. How are you? 100 % true. So what is hard about this, you know, 20 some episodes, almost 20 episodes almost in is when you've seen it, especially when you've seen it a bunch.

Matt Loehrer (02:15)
Yeah, just heads up. This is coming.

Tug McTighe (02:30)
as you're preparing the outline, it's much easier. You're reminded of stuff. yeah, that's a great bit. Or that was a great line. When you haven't seen it, you really need to watch it a couple of times. And, and, and I think you need to watch it. Just sit, watch it like you're absorbing a movie. Get your popcorn out, get your giant jaws 50th anniversary, three dimensional, please note, ⁓ rubberized.

Matt Loehrer (02:40)
You really do.

that's so cool.

Tug McTighe (02:53)
cup of coke. So yeah, I think you need to watch.

Matt Loehrer (02:55)
He should mention to

the listeners that you're holding up. They can't see it.

Tug McTighe (02:58)
Oh yeah, sorry. Those of you who aren't,

I'm holding up a really, really amazing cup I bought when I saw Jaws on IMAX. We'll put a, we'll, we'll make that one of our clips that we share on social. But yeah, you need to watch it. And then ideally like anything, take a minute, then watch it again and do your notes. Now, you know, you're watching a three hour movie like Codfather.

It probably takes when you're when you're doing your notes, it's at least four hours. At least this was about, think, two hours. And this was the first time I'd seen it. So it probably took me three, three and a half hours. Luckily. I'm suffering from the suffering from Corona virus. So I had time this weekend.

Matt Loehrer (03:34)
I think this was 230.

Right.

Yeah, right. ⁓ It's I know we it seems so natural when we do this. It must be effortless. But in fact, it does take a lot of time between watching the movie and then ruminating and then rewatching the movie and then coming up, typing up notes.

Tug McTighe (03:45)
Yeah.

And then I want to talk

to you about it, but I don't want to talk to you about it until we get here. Because I'm going leave all the good shit here.

Matt Loehrer (03:57)
Exactly, so it's a process.

Right? Yeah, I don't want to and you know I love surprises. I love it when you say something that I'm like, ⁓ you blew my mind. Yeah, exactly. So that said, what did you think you knew about this movie going in?

Tug McTighe (04:02)
I don't want to leave it in our text exchange. So.

Yeah. Well,

our movie, I don't know if we said it, the holdovers, another Alexander Payne movie who we'll get into another Alexander and Paul Giamatti movie. They were, did sideways together. Not too long ago on our podcast. but yeah, precious little, I knew Giamatti. knew Alexander Payne. I knew he pain directed it. I figured he wrote it. he writes most of his stuff.

I knew it was a boarding school in probably the seventies. It looked like the seventies, over a Thanksgiving or Christmas break. That's what they're being. Some students are the holdovers and I knew that Giamatti was a professor who had clearly John drawn the short straw. that's it. I figured.

Part comedy, part drama. You know, I figured there'd be some deep spots, some funny spots, some slapstick. Just I've seen enough Alexander Payne movies to know that's his overall, you know, that's what he does. But bro, that's it.

Matt Loehrer (04:59)
Well, same on all counts here. didn't have a lot. I think I kind of assumed a lot of the same things you did. And to a large degree, that was correct.

The log line, in 1970, a curmudgeonly history teacher at a New England boarding school remains on campus during Christmas break to supervise held over students, holdovers, and ends up forming an unlikely bond with a brainy but damaged troublemaker. So, pretty much right on.

Tug McTighe (05:08)
you

Yep, close enough. so 2023 American Christmas comedy, I would say. Uh directed by Alexander Payne, written by David Hemmingson and starring Giamatti, Divine Joy Randolph, who we'll talk about later, won an Oscar for this role. Dominic Sessa, who I wanna talk about him as well. Uh set in 70 tells the story of a classic teacher at a New England boarding school who

chaperones a handful of students have nowhere to go for Christmas break. Filming took place from January to March, 2022. That is banging it out. Um, in Massachusetts, uh, premiered at tell your ride on August 31, 2023 released in the U S by focus features on October 27th, 2023. Critical response was very positive. It grossed 45, uh, 45 million.

Matt Loehrer (05:56)
⁓ you're right.

Tug McTighe (06:13)
I think on a budget of maybe 15 something like that. So made some money named one of the top 10 films of 2023 by AFI. Lots of other accolades, including two wins of gold globe in British Academy Awards. Divine joy, Randolph won best supporting actress at both of those five Academy Award nominations, best picture, best actor for Giamatti on Randolph one for best supporting. So

Matt Loehrer (06:16)
15.

Tug McTighe (06:40)
Great.

Matt Loehrer (06:41)
If I had any complaints, it would be that

I would have liked to see more of her story. But that's a minor complaint. She was so good, but everybody was good.

Tug McTighe (06:45)
I agree a hundred percent.

really understated with her and like you said did a lot in a little

Matt Loehrer (06:57)
Absolutely. So ordinarily we would talk about directors credits because we've kind of become a show about directors largely. Which is fine, but we've already done with Alexander Payne and if you haven't. Been through that you can go back and. ⁓ Listen to our sideways episode, absolutely, but as you mentioned earlier at heart, Alexander Payne is a writer, so let's talk about writing.

Tug McTighe (07:03)
I'm accidentally.

Please go back and listen to our episode on sideways.

Yes.

Matt Loehrer (07:19)
In terms of writing, after Sideways he had a really weird seven years.

Tug McTighe (07:23)
It

is coming. When you go through this, he did a lot of weird shit.

Matt Loehrer (07:27)
It was just an odd time. So he was on a high, like sideways. And I feel like critics love him. Other directors love him. Everybody involved in it. Even, I think, more so even than the public. The people that actually make the films for.

Tug McTighe (07:36)
Seems like it, that's right.

He's an actor's

actor. ⁓ Sorry. He's an actor's director, a director's director, a writer's writer.

Matt Loehrer (07:47)
For sure. So,

yeah. So in that seven year period, he co-wrote a screenplay for an Adam Sandler, Kevin James movie. I now pronounce you Chuck and Larry, which got made, but his movie didn't get made. This was rewritten into something that didn't look anything like what he put together.

Tug McTighe (08:00)
No, and-

Boy, yeah, I'll

tell you what, terrible movie.

Matt Loehrer (08:06)
Yes, and he is disavowed that he was disappointed with how it came out because I knowing him, well, knowing what we know of him, I don't know him, but knowing what we know of Alexander Payne. I'm sure he had a very. Well, constructed story. Yeah, and something that it wasn't a goofy. Crazy comedy starring Adam Sandler, I mean, maybe it was, but Adam Sandler's done some.

Tug McTighe (08:16)
Haha.

He had a concept. Yeah.

No. No.

Matt Loehrer (08:30)
Really pretty good stuff, but I don't think this was it.

Tug McTighe (08:32)
Yeah, but this was a movie about two firefighters who had to pretend to be gay to not lose their life insurance or their health insurance. It doesn't make any sense. No.

Matt Loehrer (08:39)
It's not the movie he would make, right? He also signed

a petition calling for the release of Roman Polanski, who you may remember him from. We just talked about him.

Tug McTighe (08:51)
I

remember him very well, ⁓ from our discussion of once upon a time in Hollywood, he was a character in that film. He's also a real person and is a real convicted sexual predator who's been on the run from justice for decades. So I don't know. Yeah, that's right. If I recall, he was in all seriousness, douchebag, but in all seriousness, I think he was trying to

Matt Loehrer (09:05)
Right, so at the time he was in Switzerland and they had put him in jail, so.

Tug McTighe (09:16)
make a deal to come back. I'm aging. I'm health is failing a little bit like Hyman Roth tried to do. See you that life imitates art.

Matt Loehrer (09:23)
Exactly.

And it all comes back. It all comes back. So anyway, I think he was under house arrest for like two months and then they just let him go. They dropped charges. He also produced pain, produced an indie film called King of California starring Michael Douglas and another one called Savages, which I think was a little higher profile. Yeah, it started Laura Linney, Philip Seymour Hoffman. So, you know, that was good. And Philip Bosco.

Tug McTighe (09:43)
That sounds interesting. I can't remember that one.

Matt Loehrer (09:50)
If you remember him, character actor, he played Melanie Griffiths. He's that guy. He played Melanie Griffiths boss and working girl. He was the one that gave her the job after she at the very end, which is really great. He played in this movie a father suffering from dementia. It was his last film role. And then 10 years later, he died from complications of dementia. So rest in peace for the boss. yeah. And then.

Tug McTighe (09:52)
He's a bad guy. ⁓

at the very end, right? Yeah.

Again life imitating honor

Matt Loehrer (10:14)
Alexander Payne directs Clooney and the Descendants and along with yeah, anyone in Oscar for that? He and co-writers Nat Faxon and our friend Jim Rash and Jim Rash wrote and directed one of our favorite movies, which was

Tug McTighe (10:17)
Great movie by the way.

the way way back starring friend of the pod Sam Rockwell Nat Faxon co-wrote that with him and is one of the workers at Water Wiz on top of the water slide.

Matt Loehrer (10:28)
Yes. Love Sam Rockwell and.

Right. And you had said he was in some Broken Lizard movies. ⁓ He was in Beerfest and he was also the voice of Elfo on Disenchanted. That was great.

Tug McTighe (10:43)
Yes. Yes. He, he, Nat

Faxon. really like.

Matt Loehrer (10:47)
Yeah, so these are guys that you think, especially Jim Rash. He also played like the Dean on Community, which at times was just brilliant. ⁓ And he's been in all the Marvel movies too.

Tug McTighe (10:56)
Yeah, they're those, those

guys float right there. They float in front and behind the camera a little bit writing and directing and then whatever movie they write or direct there, they're, they're, they're pulling a bit part doing something. Yeah.

Matt Loehrer (11:11)
Sure.

Crazy. I don't know if you knew that, but the show Community, which again I unashamedly enjoyed quite a bit. There are certain episodes that are.

Tug McTighe (11:19)
It's on my list of things to consume. Just haven't done it.

Matt Loehrer (11:21)
OK, it was

produced by the Russo brothers. So yes, so then when you go back and watch Avengers Endgame, there is a cameo by someone that was in one of the actors that was in the show. If you go back to Iron Man 3 or something, you get a cameo. Actually, it was Iron Man 2. You get a cameo by Jim Rash as the dean at MIT.

Tug McTighe (11:24)
I did not know that.

Right.

And I think, I think he was in way, back for a minute. think, I think he worked in the, the, where you got the pads, the slide down the, I'm just picturing his bald head.

Matt Loehrer (11:50)
I'm sure he was.

Yeah, the way way back if you don't know it was a really good show and I'd recommend to anybody you turn me under that and that was fantastic. So so then like that. He's back on top, right? He did pain, did the descendants. He's riding high Oscar for best adaptive screenplay. It's like, ⁓ he's back. He's fantastic. And then he did downsizing and he's like.

Tug McTighe (12:00)
my gosh, great movie. Yeah. God.

Right.

which is a weird,

weird movie, interesting movie. I wouldn't call it a great movie. It's worth a watch. It's weird.

Matt Loehrer (12:22)
Yeah, but it was kind of like, jeez, he really screwed the pooch on this. I guess we won't hear from him again. And then five years later, he does the holdovers and it's nominated for best picture. ⁓

Tug McTighe (12:31)
Yeah.

So when he's on, he's in the Oscar conversation.

Matt Loehrer (12:35)
Right. It's just him doing it. Fun

notes about him. He was an uncredited writer on Meet the Parents. He was a credited writer on Jurassic Park 3, which I actually kind of liked that had T. Leoni and William H. Macy. So, of course, William H. Macy especially that just made it much better. But The Holdovers was not written by Payne He probably had something to do with it, but it was written by David Hemmingsen.

Tug McTighe (12:44)
Okay?

⁓ William H. Macy. Yeah.

wrong.

I am assuming.

Matt Loehrer (12:58)
who prior to the movie was best known for television writing. He graduated from Columbia Law in 90. He got a job in entertainment law in Los Angeles. And then he quit law and started writing for shows like Pete and Pete on Nickelodeon, Just Shoot Me, which I watched a bunch of years ago. Kitchen Confidential starring Bradley Cooper, last season I never saw that or knew it existed.

Tug McTighe (13:13)
I watched it too.

That was the

what's his name? The chef Gordon Ramsey. Yeah.

Matt Loehrer (13:20)
like a Bourdain or the who's the guy that yells at everybody? Ramsey,

right. He don't trust the B in apartment 23, he wrote for that. then in yeah, like Crystal Ritter. And then in 2017, he wrote a pilot script for a show set in a boarding school and somehow pain got a hold it, which I think he does a lot. He just looks around for these. They have the blacklist. I think it's called these the best shows that don't get produced every year.

Tug McTighe (13:27)
Kristen Ritter, pretty good movie, or pretty good TV show.

Yeah.

Yeah, there's

shit floating around out there all the time.

Matt Loehrer (13:48)
He's always looking. And then he got a hold of it and said, hey, I want to make the story worth noting. There's a Scottish writer named Simon Stevenson who accused Hemmingsen of plagiarizing his work to create the Holdovers. Hemmingsen I didn't. And as far as I know, that situation hasn't been resolved. So I kind of feel like it's never going to be resolved. Like it's just going to go away. But Hemmingsen was nominated for the Oscar for Best Original Screenplay for this. I feel like it would be pretty dramatic if a year later they said, by the way, this was plagiarism.

Tug McTighe (14:06)
Yeah.

If somebody figured it out. Yeah.

Plagiarism will come back later.

Matt Loehrer (14:18)
yeah.

Tug McTighe (14:18)
thank God your mom told you. Um, all right. So pain Alexander Alex will call him Alex. Uh, again, he also was thinking about this kind of boarding school thing was watching reluce in 1935, dramatic comedy from France about a tough teacher looking after kids at a boarding school over the Christmas holiday. So

right? and then as he started working on it with, with Hemmingson, that script was set in the present, but pain wanted to do some, so I'm a more of a period, right? fifties or a sixties, they decided to settle on 70. Didn't want any kind of comparisons to dead poet society, which I watched a little bit of not too long ago. Great. Great to rewatch that again. and yet

Matt Loehrer (14:38)
similar.

There are kind

of, I can see kind of how if you weren't careful to separate those, how people would instantly say, this is so much like Deadpool. Do you know what I mean? It was a smart move, right?

Tug McTighe (15:07)
Yeah, the one it's the setting, right? Yeah. A

hundred percent. Plus we got a groovy soundtrack out of it. ⁓

Matt Loehrer (15:15)
yeah,

I was one of my first notes is like, what when is this set? Because you can't really tell but you know, it's not now. And then ⁓

Tug McTighe (15:21)
Well, dude,

the credits, the title cards, it feels like it was made in 70. So that's really, I thought really slick.

Matt Loehrer (15:27)
Absolutely, that was not an accident. Yeah, so the radios

playing Chambers Brothers, you know, Tom has come today and I'm like, OK, I know about.

Tug McTighe (15:35)
Right. Okay. Now I

know. Right. okay. So as I said before, January to March, 2022, you guys, Matt and I made commercials together trying to bang ⁓ a bet. Yes. Serious felt longer than that. Try trying to bang a movie out in three months, really hard. and you've got to have a tight buttoned up production.

Matt Loehrer (15:45)
Way longer than that.

Tug McTighe (15:56)
And, and this was shot on location at these schools. a location manager's name was Kai Quinlan had, had worked on other films set in New England. She was from Massachusetts. So she's like, I know where to go. We're going to this gym. We're going to that kitchen. No sets, which I find ridiculous. everything was on location. and I'm just going to tell everybody out there who's not a

marketing commercial maker that that's hard as shit to do what what we just said they did ⁓

Matt Loehrer (16:25)
But

when we did the thing, we talked about John Carpenter and how he would just be like, we'll just figure it out later. Like, I don't know. And I don't think Alexander Payne is like that at all. He's like, here's exactly how this is going to go for the next two months. And then we're out of here. It's impressive.

Tug McTighe (16:34)
No. Yeah. So, so this is, this is really amazing that they shot this

at these prep schools. Giamatti went to a prep school in Connecticut in the eighties. And he based some of this on a teacher he described as quote unquote, not a happy man. Barton is not an actual school, but they shot at five different real schools. Groton Northfield Mount Herman.

Dearfield Academy, St. Mark's and Fairhaven. and again, they wanted it to feel real, but not, that's Shawnee mission East. So they wanted it to feel real, but not be identifiable. and I love this quote about the aesthetic that they used. he said, pain said capturing the seventies aesthetic was relatively easy because change comes slowly to new England.

Matt Loehrer (17:21)
I believe it. It's I've lived my whole life in the Midwest where nothing's really that old. ⁓ So it's interesting. It was interesting for me to watch this because you couldn't do that here. Like, there's how old is Olathe South, like 20 years old? I don't know.

Tug McTighe (17:27)
Right, right.

No, you could not have a board. That's right. A boarding school

that was set in Topeka, just Topeka, Kansas. Just doesn't work. but again, there's so much stuff in, especially in these old buildings, Matt, where, Hey, that's a perfect room, but we can't get the camera in there that we can't get the lights in. So they, so

Matt Loehrer (17:42)
Right.

Right.

We need 14

people in this room. You're like, are you gonna do that?

Tug McTighe (17:59)
So we got to cut down

the crew and figure out. So there's just lots of added complexity, but it shows up on screen.

Matt Loehrer (18:06)
Yeah, we talked about that with Once Upon a Time in Hollywood and more, I think more so here. Someone was responsible for every aspect. And once upon a time in Hollywood, we talked about how they'd redone the facades of the streets. So they looked like like this is everything they cleared out every room. They cleared out the entire campus. You can't just have some random dude skateboarding around while they're trying to make a movie. So.

Tug McTighe (18:26)
No, no, no,

no, no.

Matt Loehrer (18:27)
And they've, you know, everything in that room that they then need to fill with things that are period specific and make sense and contribute to that story.

Tug McTighe (18:35)
Somebody

needed to design the textbooks.

Matt Loehrer (18:38)
Right. It's they've cast a spell and if something's out of place, it's going to jerk you out of that or it could. So it's just amazing costumes, everything.

Tug McTighe (18:47)
Yeah, just feels really like seventies. So he also hired, please apologies to E. L. Brill'd a Danish cinematographer with an impressive list of credits. He tasked him with creating ways to shoot that would give it this vintage look. The cam and camera.

Matt Loehrer (18:52)
Good luck.

Tug McTighe (19:06)
They wanted to emulate film grain. course it was shot digitally, but they wanted to use the right kinds of lenses, color grading, framing. There's a great shot in the end that I'll remind us of where they do a zoom that is straight out of 70. No, nobody would do it today, but the zoom is straight out of 1970. So they, they emulated that stuff. And again, I just think

You know, we talk about these graphic designers in this case, ⁓ Nate Carlson, can go to N a N the letter eight WC.com to see some of his work. He was the leader of creating, like I said, the cover of the books, the fucking library card, the bulletin board outside the office, that everything is designed. Nothing just happened. They, they made a list and they checked it off a list.

I find it fascinating.

Matt Loehrer (19:58)
me too. 100%. There's a scene where. He's making a phone call. We'll talk about it later ⁓ where Angus is trying to get a hotel room, but there's a little sign you know about 3 by 5 posted on the wall next to the phone that says here's how to make a collect call. He designed that sign like everything that you see in this that's been designed. They didn't just go. They didn't time travel to the 70s and grab a bunch of stuff they didn't.

Tug McTighe (20:20)
And you're not just buying

it on Amazon either, right, right.

Matt Loehrer (20:22)
No, they just made it.

So for two years, Nate Carlson, this was his job, working on this movie, and they would call him up and say, hey, here's a checklist of stuff we need you to make. And he'd be like, Very cool.

Tug McTighe (20:34)
Yeah. And then he even, he even retrofied the Miramax focus features logos to make them look seventies, which I love.

Matt Loehrer (20:42)
Yeah, because they didn't exist in the 70s. So he gave them kind of a new look or meet. I'd say he defresh them. It's not a brand refresh. It's a brand defresh. And yeah, Miramax Miramax liked it so much. They said we want you to kind of update our current logo. So that was pretty. Yeah.

Tug McTighe (20:49)
He defreshed them. He didn't refresh them. It's the opposite of de-aging. He's he aged the logos. Yeah. Why don't you update our actual brand?

Matt Loehrer (21:03)
⁓ One of the film's plot points involves Giamatti's character's lazy eye, one of several health problems that he suffers from. So a makeup and effects artist named Christina Patterson was hired to create the illusion of this with a hand-painted soft contact lens, which he switched from eye to eye as a prank on the actor who played Angus, the kid. So he never knew.

He never knew which eye to look at. ⁓ He was effectively blind in that eye when he was wearing the contact lens. And he said he was able to use that as an actor to reinforce his feeling of being an outsider and being different. You know, it's interesting how actors do things like that. they they take a thing to. Right.

Tug McTighe (21:26)
It's really funny.

Got it. I, they do a thing to help them remember what the, yeah,

I, I, for a moment I'm like, my God, tug. You love Paul Giamatti. Have you never noticed that he has a lazy high? Like I was so taken by it. I thought I'm a total Dick who never noticed the no. Right. But

Matt Loehrer (21:52)
Ha ha!

You've never noticed all these years.

Tug McTighe (22:00)
I'm really glad to hear that.

Matt Loehrer (22:02)
Yeah. So we talked a little bit about music. The musical score is by Mark Orton. There are featured songs by 70 Staples like the Allman Brothers and the Chambers Brothers we mentioned. Power Pop Superstar's Badfinger. ⁓ Man When No Matter What came on those first chord. I was like, love that. And then ⁓

Tug McTighe (22:13)
⁓ happy to hear it.

Now now now now

Matt Loehrer (22:21)
and Cat Stevens, but also some contemporary stuff from like Damien Urato. He's a Seattle guy.

Tug McTighe (22:26)
that felt a little,

yeah, but felt a little bit like it belonged.

Matt Loehrer (22:30)
It really did. I was like, this kind of reminds me of Kat Stevens.

So my mom suggested that maybe they just couldn't get the rights to all the songs they wanted and had to go with someone else, but I don't think so. I feel like Alexander Payne is the type who if he really wanted to get songs, he would get them.

but I don't think he, I can see him saying, wanna spin the wheel on this guy and try and give it something different. Like not everything is from 1970, but it feels like it's from 1976.

Tug McTighe (22:46)
I- I-

I

think he could have got what he I think he got what he wanted. Yeah.

Matt Loehrer (22:59)
I think so too. I think

I tend to give him credit ⁓ that everything that happened in this movie was the way he planned it to happen.

Tug McTighe (23:05)
I will, I'm willing to do that as well.

Matt Loehrer (23:08)
Okay, so tomato meter and popcorn meter. This is kind of insane. This is as big numbers I've ever seen. 97 % on the tomato meter with 366 reviews and 92 % on the popcorn meter, which I know critics love him, but that's pretty high for just the random public dudes.

Tug McTighe (23:15)
I think so too.

Yeah.

⁓ I mean, he's

almost over 100 or almost at 100 on on both of these. That's hard to do. This is a well liked film, obviously.

Matt Loehrer (23:35)
Yeah, 40.

It really is, and it deserves it. Forty million. Like you said, it was 13 million. I said 15. It clocks in. You said two hours. I said two thirty. It was right in the middle. Two hours and 13 minutes, which is about right for him. Better than sideways. I felt felt like went a little long in this one wrapped up where I needed to. Right. So the cast, we talked about Paul Jomadi as Paul Hunnam, Classics teacher.

Tug McTighe (23:42)
There you go.

There you go. Yep, two hours.

Little long, two and a half, wasn't it? Yeah.

Matt Loehrer (24:01)
the Barton Academy boarding school who everybody hates. ⁓ He claims to suffer trimethylmenuria and hyperhidrosis for the layman out there. That's fish odor syndrome where a person smells like fish and where also they excessively sweat. So not great. You know, it's interesting how pain creates these characters almost like I want you to dislike this person from the start.

Tug McTighe (24:05)
They all hate him.

There

is something wrong with this person. Yeah.

Matt Loehrer (24:29)
Right, I

don't even want it like give him a bad personality. Like that's not even enough. I'm also going to make him smell like riding fish. Dominic Cessa as Angus Tully Barton student who's held over during the Christmas break. Talk about Cessa.

Tug McTighe (24:33)
I'm gonna make it smell. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, this was his feature film debut. And again, in typical Alexander Payne, he had cattle call auditions for area drama students. And Seth was one of these guys that came in and Giamatti said that Payne expressed some concern at his lack of acting experience. Giamatti said, give him a shot. You fucking gave Chris Klein a shot in election.

Matt Loehrer (25:02)
And he did, and it worked out great.

Tug McTighe (25:03)
Yeah, and

he was really good, felt really real. And why did it feel really real? Because he is real.

Matt Loehrer (25:06)
Yeah, I was impressed.

Absolutely. He did a fantastic job.

Tug McTighe (25:09)
Alright, I gotta go to the bathroom real fast.

Matt Loehrer (25:14)
Divine Joy Randolph as Mary Lamb, Barton, cafeteria manager and buried mother, and she was fantastic.

Tug McTighe (25:19)
and

really good won an Oscar really held was emotional they they all understood what she was dealing with or they they they all grew to understand what she was dealing with and I think all being together helped her

Matt Loehrer (25:30)
and I felt like,

yeah, I felt like I'd seen her in a hundred things, but I'm pretty sure I've never seen her in anything. She just had.

Tug McTighe (25:36)
She,

I thought she was, was more known, similar. I felt like I knew her, but then I went and looked at the IMDB. You know, she's only done 10, 15 years of stuff, but this is dynamite.

Matt Loehrer (25:45)
Yeah. Yes, Kerry Preston is Miss Lydia Crane, who I thought was something of a tease. Assistant to Barden Headmaster Dr. Woodrup. Brady Hepner as Teddy Coontz. Angus's enemy in one of the five holdovers. Ian Dally is Alex Ollerman, a member of the Mormon Church in one of the five holdovers.

Tug McTighe (25:50)
She was a good character though.

Jerk.

Yep.

Poor

Alex and Yi Jun. The two little ones. The high schoolers and then they're probably in eighth grade.

Matt Loehrer (26:08)
yeah.

Yeah, they seem pretty young. Yes, Jim Kaplan is Yi Jun Park, international student from Korea. One of the five holdovers his parents, think, doing missionary work or something. And then you have, yes, Michael Provost is Jason Smith, the football team's quarterback. And his dad's a rich big shot.

Tug McTighe (26:22)
Yes, yes.

who,

but he, he has a great relationship with his family. He just won't cut his hair.

Matt Loehrer (26:35)
That's right. They're trying to teach him a lesson and then

Tug McTighe (26:37)
And they go just cut your

hair man. He goes civil disobedience, bro

Matt Loehrer (26:41)
Right. That was pretty great. Andrew Garman is Dr. Hardy Woodrup, the headmaster of the Academy. He was terrible. So I loved him because he was so such a jerk. He was Paul Giamatti's character's former student. ⁓ Probably the first year he taught. That comes back. Stephen Thorne as Thomas Tully, Angus's biological father. Julian Vigman.

Tug McTighe (26:45)
insufferable.

You're correct. Which that that had to be great. Yeah.

Who's in the right in the asylum?

Matt Loehrer (27:05)
Yeah, Jillian Vickman as Judy Klotfelder, Angus's mother, and I've seen her in things.

Tug McTighe (27:08)
Let me, you

sure have. She's, she's from second city. She's been in a shit ton of bit parts in the movies that we like. Anchorman. I recognized her as Pam two Ms. no pan. think it cleared up this whole Pam panned. It's when Will Ferrell is interviewing for a job and step brothers. And she says, and who is this gentleman behind you? And

Matt Loehrer (27:12)
Okay.

Tug McTighe (27:30)
John C. Rowley comes out, hello lady. And so she was in that, yeah, a minute.

Matt Loehrer (27:32)
I was

was going to save this for next season, guess what? I've never seen. I've never seen stepbrothers. All right, nice. And a barely recognizable Tate Donovan. was like, holy cow.

Tug McTighe (27:37)
Step brothers, I'm gonna kill you in the mouth. It's number one on the list.

Kate,

I was going to make a big stink about seeing Tate Donovan in this, then I couldn't fucking find him. Tate Donovan, 90s in a lot of 90s movies and shows. I remember him very distinctly as Joshua, the man on friends that Rachel was in love with after she broke up with Ross.

Matt Loehrer (27:52)
He did not look.

I remember

him from I think it was like Love Potion number nine with what's her name? Sandy Bullock's one of her first movies. So I think the hair is what made him so he always had that weird nineties, eighties perm thing going on. We had Darby, Lily, Lee stack as Elise, Angus's romantic interest and Lydia's niece, Kelly Aucoin as Hugh Cavanaugh, Paul's former Harvard classmate.

Tug McTighe (28:08)
100 % with Sandra Bullock.

Yeah, had a nice head of hair.

Matt Loehrer (28:27)
calling Clinton as Mrs. Kevin on his wife. So a really tight cast considering that most of the people with all but a very few exceptions get almost no screen time. Or in the case of the holdovers, most of them are gone by the end of the first act. They're they were. Yeah. So we'll talk about that in the plot. All right. Well, what's it about, buddy?

Tug McTighe (28:37)
One scene.

Right? Well, six days in, right? They all leave except for Angus. So it really feels like a play. Yeah.

Okay,

here we go. So first of all, I love the credits, the overall right away you're dropped in 1970 from the soundtrack to the logo look to the way typefaces are. So look again, you and I being art leading, creative leading kinds of guys that makes us happy to see the care and the, and the brain power that has gone into it.

not just the hand skills, but the brain power that it takes to create that look and feel. ⁓ I love that. No, no.

Matt Loehrer (29:22)
Yeah, that wasn't accidental at all.

I love that. That was nine minutes long, actually, that opening credit scene. And that's pretty typical for movies at the time. You'd have establishing shots and they would just show credits over the top of it. And then. And this was also, I don't think, an accident. The very last credit that you get on screen is directed by Alexander Payne, and it comes up over the chair that's empty.

Tug McTighe (29:34)
Yep.

Matt Loehrer (29:46)
which is where Paul Giamatti would be sitting. So is this autobiographical? Probably, least to some degree.

Tug McTighe (29:50)
Right?

Right. All right. So in December 1970, Paul Hunman is a teacher of Barton Academy in New England, all male boarding school that he once attended on scholarship. His students and fellow teachers despise him for his strict grading and stubborn personality. Dr. Woodrup, Barton's headmaster and Hunnam's former student enter tension already, scolds him for costing the Academy money.

by flunking a major donor's son causing Princeton to rescind the kid his offer of admission. And again, to just really double down on the theme of this episode, this line stuck out to me said, that boy is too dumb to pour piss out of a boot.

Matt Loehrer (30:30)
There were a ton of great lines in this. We also got to get a sense of the mindset of the school and the students and faculty. There's a scene where they're all in church, students and parents, because it's final mass this semester, the parents have all come back to pick up their kids. And the minister says during the chapel service, just before the start of holiday break, he says, we wish you all a very Merry Christmas or as the case may be.

Tug McTighe (30:39)
You have the final mass of the semester,

Matt Loehrer (30:53)
very happy Hanukkah and then everybody goes ha ha ha because of course there's no Jewish students there because it's pretty anti it's waspy and anti Semitic and.

Tug McTighe (30:58)
Right, right.

Right. And further, I just called it mass in no way was it mass. You're not going to find a lot of not going to find a lot of Catholics here either. Surprise. I let the Mormon kid in.

Matt Loehrer (31:06)
no, not at all.

No, maybe Episcopalians.

Right.

Tug McTighe (31:13)
So when he's on screen in the first 10 minutes of this, Giamatti is already facial expressioning. He's harrumping. He's, he's handing out grades to the kids and their F's and T's and he's given them an I, you know, like you suck. Like he just, he's eating it up.

right away. Yes.

Matt Loehrer (31:34)
And he's enjoying it so much.

We're gonna play that clip right now too.

Tug McTighe (31:39)
Yes, where he's he's the meanest teacher ever.

Matt Loehrer (31:41)
He's just gleefully sadistic. He loves handing out these punishment and crushing these kids' dreams. Angus did.

Tug McTighe (31:50)
and he'll put it down

on the table with the flourish. You know, he'll be like, yeah, ride a Valkyries.

Matt Loehrer (31:54)
He's like whistling.

Yeah, and it's like D plus F. C minus. So when Angus, who did pretty well in his exam, he's a smart kid. got a B plus. He mentions ⁓ his plans to be in, you know, where's your head? And he's like Saint Kitts because he's going to Saint Kitts with his parents. Hunnam was going to give them the opportunity to retake the test. And he says, well, you can thank your friend Mr. Tully for nuking that for you.

Tug McTighe (32:00)
Yep.

B plus highest in the class.

Right.

Yeah, cause he says, do we, we really be starting

another new chapter right now?

Matt Loehrer (32:23)
He's like, good point. Let's not retake the test and you can let the grades stand. Right. So he is more than happy to nuke any hopes those kids would have of getting a better grade and also turning them against their fellow classmates.

Tug McTighe (32:25)
That's right. They're like, thanks a lot Angus.

100%.

And he says

it to the headmaster. I'm not going to pass these fucking kids. They're rich. They're entitled. Everything's going to work out for them. I'm trying to hold them to a standard.

Matt Loehrer (32:46)
Yeah, he hates them.

Tug McTighe (32:47)
Okay, so

Hunnam as punishment for being everybody's hated professor, including the faculty, is forced, asked slash forced to supervise five students left back at campus during the Christmas break, including the four mentioned Angus, whose mother calls two minutes after class ends to tell them that a family trip to St. Kitts has been canceled because she's going to honeymoon with her new husband.

And as I was watching this, wasn't sure if Angus is he, he goes, will you be staying? call Stanley. Um, so Angus's dad is maybe dead, um, or they're divorced. And I just wanted it said that, um, if they are divorced and we do find out they're divorced later, um, divorce in 1970 was not at all common in 1970, the U S divorce rate was 14.9 divorces.

per thousand married women. So that is a low, rate. It skyrocketed in the seventies. The article I was reading went on went on to, ⁓ to say, but you learn later that there were some extenuating circumstances on, what happened in their marriage. So very interesting. Angus is about to leave. I would call this the inciting incident. He's not a holdover and then he is a holdover and we see

Super on the screen day one December 17th day one. ⁓ I like it when they introduce the countdown clock. It always drives the The action forward. ⁓ and we Right. We know they have two weeks And we see it on the screen So also staying behind is cafeteria manager mary lamb. this is divine joy Whose late son curtis attended barton

Matt Loehrer (34:11)
You get a sense of urgency.

Tug McTighe (34:22)
but recently died in the Vietnam War after being drafted. You see Matt, unlike most Spartan students, he did not get a student deferment. Cause one, his parents were rich and he didn't have enough money to go to college. To the students, students should grin. Hunnam says, you're not on vacation. You're going to be studying. I'm going to be quizzing you. And because they want to save money on

electricity, we all have to sleep in the infirmary because they're cutting heat to the rest of the to the rest of the school. So this was shitty and it just keeps getting shittier.

Matt Loehrer (34:54)
It's worth noting too, Mary is black. So she is another step removed from these kids of privilege. She works in the cafeteria, but her son was going to get a GI bill. He was going to come back and get an education. So that's, you know, it's like another tragedy.

Tug McTighe (34:58)
Yes.

Correct.

That's right. That's right.

And she seems to be popular with the students, at least with Angus. But Coons makes some bad mouth comment and Angus defends her. There's a really nice sequence when Mary's at home and we see she's left. Curtis's room is like a Curtis museum. Nothing's changed. So we're seeing some shit, right? We're showing we're not telling.

We're seeing stuff so we can learn about these characters. We also then learn through some dialogue that that Angus has been kicked out of three schools already. And if he doesn't make it here, he's going to go to they're going to send a military school. And again, military schools are bad enough. Threaten peace time. It's certainly a terrifying threat when you're in the middle of Vietnam. And then again, he's the smartest of all of them. He got the best grade, the B plus on on Hunnam's

⁓ test.

Matt Loehrer (36:00)
Right. And as the story goes on, you get a greater sense of how really concerned he is about the prospect of going to military school.

Tug McTighe (36:07)
Mm-hmm. Very much so. He's also a good kid, Matt. he defended Mary and then they're like I said, they're in the infirmary. So they're all sleeping in these just cots next to each other. And you June wakes up. He's having a nightmare about being so far away. And he says, I had an accident like he's only 12, probably. I had an accident and Angus.

says, don't worry, we'll get up early. I'll help you clean it up. Don't tell anybody or they'll crucify you for it, which is ironic as you're a Buddhist. He says, ⁓ and, so you start to learn about Angus and now you're really, he's told you, I've gotten kicked out of these schools. I'm afraid to go into military school. He's defends Mary. He helps this little kid. You're like, I really want to learn who this Angus is.

Matt Loehrer (36:36)
That was good.

Tug McTighe (36:49)
then there's a moment where Coons says to Angus man Dunham smells like booze. It's only 11 in the morning and that says day six. So this is Matt Chekhov's gun. I'll tell you what Chekhov's gun is Chekhov's gun originates

Matt Loehrer (37:00)
What is Chekhov's gun, Tug?

Tug McTighe (37:04)
for my principal articulated by Russian playwright Anton Chekhov, not Mr. Chekhov, but Anton Chekhov, most notably in his letters to writers where he stated, if in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one, it should go off. So the idea here is something you and I've talked about without calling it a Chekhov's gun. If you set something up, you need to pay it off.

Matt Loehrer (37:10)
from Star Trek, he was Russian too.

Tug McTighe (37:27)
So as soon as I saw that, I'm like, okay, they need to pay off. Maybe he is a drunk. Maybe he is, you know, secretly sneaking booze, but either way, I, I do want to break now to get a word from our sponsor who is not Anton Chekhov or Chekhov from spot from Star Trek. But as you all know, well, our sponsor is little bear graphics.

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and have Matt and team make you some stuff that graduates with honors.

Matt Loehrer (38:17)
It's so great. love it. All right.

Tug McTighe (38:18)
doing the best we can over here, All right, Matt, why don't

Matt Loehrer (38:22)
After six days then, one of the students, think it's the football player, ⁓ his wealthy father allows him to leave. They send a helicopter for him and agrees.

Tug McTighe (38:26)
Yep, it is.

hold on. And they check

off gun that earlier, didn't they? He said you could land a chopper right here. My dad takes one back and forth to work. Yeah.

Matt Loehrer (38:34)
Yes.

And he's like, my name's got a chopper.

I do that all the time. So he says, yeah, we'll take you home. We'll take anybody on this ski trip to my parents' lodge in Utah or wherever it is. And the one student who

Tug McTighe (38:50)
Right. I think it's think

it's upstate on the East Coast, but nonetheless.

Matt Loehrer (38:54)
Yeah, it's prop.

That's probably cherry. Didn't probably fly helicopter to Utah, but regardless, the one student could not get permission. He couldn't get in touch with his parents and that of course is Angus. So he is stuck. The only one. So all these other characters are just gone. These other four boys. Yeah, and. ⁓

Tug McTighe (38:57)
Yeah.

Angus. Right.

They're out. That's right. So now it's Mary

Angus and Giamatti.

Matt Loehrer (39:15)
Yeah,

there's a great shot of them watching the helicopter fly away. ⁓

Tug McTighe (39:20)
Yeah, it shows them from

the front and then the helicopters between the two of them there in the foreground. goes, it's really nice.

Matt Loehrer (39:26)
Yes, there's, Jomadi is talking about, we get a sense of how just pretentious he is and condescending. And I think those are shades of kind of the same thing.

Tug McTighe (39:36)
Yeah. And I don't think he see if you agree. I don't think he means it, but I think he means it.

He, I don't think he's trying to be hurtful, but he, yeah, he, can't, yeah, yes, he can't help himself. He's not trying to hurt their feelings, but he's hurtful. Yeah.

Matt Loehrer (39:44)
think he's playing a role and that's part of it and it's reflexive at this point.

Yeah, yeah, he's talking. He's

talking about his. He wants to write a book, but he calls it a monograph. He says he says to Mary a monographs like a book and she says I know what a monograph is.

Tug McTighe (40:04)
He's starting to hang out with Mary a little bit. She's watching TV, like speaking of pretentious. He goes, what is this? And she goes, you never seen the newlywed game? So they start watching the newlywed game. But he says, in the monograph, I don't know if there's a whole book in me. Maybe there's a monograph. And she goes, man, you can't even dream a whole dream.

Matt Loehrer (40:12)
Right.

That's great. That's a great line.

Tug McTighe (40:24)
So what a great little

line. but again, he can't help. Like you said, it's just who he is. now again, we just saw right after that scene, he's getting ready to go to bed and he grabs a bottle of Jim beam and slugs it back and then puts himself to bed. So at least we got some of that. And then there's a great montage where Angus is he's drunk. He's passed out.

Angus takes that you see him pick up the giant set of keys and he's running around the school. He's in the library. He's playing piano in this room. He's at in the chapel drinking the wine, which I thought was funny.

Matt Loehrer (40:56)
Right.

That's funny. So then we move to, you know, the next day and they're eating. The three of them are eating together. So it's it's on them and Mary and it is. Yeah, there's nobody else there. I think he offers everyone cookies, the Christmas cookies that Lady had given.

Tug McTighe (41:05)
They're the only ones left. Yeah.

Yeah, Lydia made him the cookies

and he smugly accepted them. Not even smugly, like, no, no.

Matt Loehrer (41:16)
He didn't even say thank you. He was just like, OK.

So Angus excuses himself to use the bathroom. But in fact, he goes to make a phone call to try and book a hotel room. Right. And they have an argument and it gets it gets pretty loud and then Angus just takes off. So this becomes like a montage scene.

Tug McTighe (41:27)
He's trying to peace out, man.

Yeah, like it's...

Matt Loehrer (41:43)
So he's running around.

Jumaadi's like, get back here or else it's going to be detention. He's like, are you, your detention? What are you going to do to me? ⁓

Tug McTighe (41:46)
Detention. Yeah. And then he,

and then he runs around the corner and he waits for him. Right. Right. Right. Right.

Matt Loehrer (41:52)
Yeah, I was so he's just trying to catch up with him and he's just not in the same shape as a 17 year old kid.

So we should play that will play that line. Because he runs to the he's in the gym and there's a pommel horse. Right? And there's like a pommel like a lower like a pommel horse, but it's like a platform you jump on it, flip over spring springboard so.

Tug McTighe (42:01)
We'll play that clip.

They have talked earlier about the new gymnasium being built.

It's springboard. The springboard.

Matt Loehrer (42:19)
I thought you might as like don't that's your Rubicon don't cross it don't cross that Rubicon.

Tug McTighe (42:20)
Don't do it. You know that this is

the Rubicon. Do not cross it. And he goes, you know this gym is off limits.

Matt Loehrer (42:26)
And of course he does.

And he runs and he lands and he just starts screaming because he dislocated his shoulder. Yeah, it's like a banshee whale.

Tug McTighe (42:31)
You hear a blood curdling scream and hard cut

they're in Hunnam's car. He's like, well, that's it. I'm fucked. They're going to, I was, you're my, you're under my purview. Um, yeah, really, really funny. Again, this is that Alexander Payne trademark of tense tension.

Matt Loehrer (42:44)
That was funny. He was in a lot of pain. It was funny to win.

Tug McTighe (42:53)
sadness and then slapstick. Really great bit.

So Angus gets patched up and he doesn't want to fill out the forms. Cause he's like, look, I never get to see my dad indicating that Hunnam is his dad. That my mom and dad are divorced and she'll kill him. She'll never let me see him if she finds out I can pay cash, blah, blah, blah, blah. So there's, he's making up a story. And then you see,

the two improv-ing together. Figuring out what their story is, which I really just like this whole bit. And then they go to order, they go to eat some food and he's like, a Barton man never lies and goes, you were spinning the line of bullshit with me too. Right? So.

Matt Loehrer (43:31)
But yeah, that was interesting. that's the introduction to the idea of lying, which, know, Hunnam, Paul Giamatti's character is just adamant that that's something you don't do. But on the other hand, you've got this guy that's kind of seductively like, no, there's a reason for it. And come on, lighten up, man. And so maybe there's some little wiggle room.

Tug McTighe (43:33)
⁓ That's right.

Right. Right. And

he's like, dude, you said you'd get fired. And then this is when you realize they're starting to care about each other.

Matt Loehrer (43:56)
So at the bar Angus wants to order high life. Yeah, the champagne of beers. ⁓ also I'd forgotten about this, but when he's making the phone call. So I talked about earlier about the the sign. When he's trying to get the hotel. ⁓ Dominic flubbed that first take because they you know they said action and he realized that he doesn't know how to use it a rotary phone.

Tug McTighe (43:59)
So happy to hear a Highlife. Everybody, my favorite beers are champagne and beers. ⁓

What he's trying to call the, yeah. Yeah.

It's not

as no, of course not.

Matt Loehrer (44:25)
So he's

like, what am I supposed to be doing? So then they, you know, they're like, cut. And they're like, this is how you do it. You put your finger in, you turn it to this. How would he know? Yeah.

Tug McTighe (44:28)
Cut, and they teach them how to use it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, how would he know?

He tries to the champagne of beers at the restaurant. Who waits on them? Matt, but Lydia crane who is, is Woodroop's assistant, the headmaster who gave, hunt them the cookies. And she's very sweet. goes, what are you doing? She goes, I always pick up ships here over the breaks. and they really are flirting together. Right. And she's

Matt Loehrer (44:52)
Yeah, very much

so.

Tug McTighe (44:54)
laughing and he's a little bit better up version of himself. She seems to like him. He seems to like her and, and Angus says, man, you guys got total chemistry. You should ask her out. And he replies, listen, you hormonal vulgarian that that woman deserves your respect, not your erotic speculation.

Matt Loehrer (45:13)
can I can hear him delivering that line like. Yeah, it's perfect.

Tug McTighe (45:14)
It's beautiful ⁓

and she invites them We find out later Mary and the janitor from the school to her Christmas Eve party and when they go to the party is where we hear the opening strains of Powerpop classic no matter what by bad finger. Do we hear in the bar either way I'm either way you hear it. Yeah

Matt Loehrer (45:31)
That was so great. I think we hear that in the bar, don't we? I think it's in the bar because they they meet the townie people, those

townies that are like causing them trouble or. Right.

Tug McTighe (45:40)
Pinball Townies.

Either way, no matter what, it's a classic. Everybody look it up.

Matt Loehrer (45:45)
That's a great song. That was the next Beatles, you know?

Tug McTighe (45:46)
⁓

I do, they were the first band ever signed to Apple. Yep. There is some tragedy. I have a couple other records.

Matt Loehrer (45:49)
they weren't. Absolutely. There's some tragedy with that. We should do it. We should do

a podcast about Bad Finger.

Tug McTighe (45:56)
That's a site just one episode called Bad Finger.

Matt Loehrer (45:59)
one episode. should do a new podcast. just about music.

Tug McTighe (46:02)
Just about music, just about power pop.

Matt Loehrer (46:04)
Right, because we have time.

Tug McTighe (46:05)
But like you said, Matt, there's a good scene here with the townies. and one of the townies has a hook for a hand. He obviously lost a hand in Vietnam. So Hunnam and Lydia defuse the situation and Hunnam's like, again, does not like the rich folks. So he's telling Angus, look, you don't have any fucking idea what it's like for these people to get taken in the draft and

come back disfigured. So empathy, right? He's trying to teach the kid empathy. and then Angus opens up here that he's, ⁓ got a shrink. He goes to see a doctor. says something about, go see a shrink. And, and then he goes, Hey, by the way, do know you smell? and, and Hunnam goes, yes. And he's divulges that he's got this fish odor, sweaty smell.

And yes, the end of the day, it's even worse. there again, they're connecting these two. It's nice actually.

Matt Loehrer (46:48)
Right.

and being vulnerable and exposing parts of themselves.

Tug McTighe (46:56)
Yeah, yeah.

Being truthful for once, because they're both bullshitters, right? They're both bullshitters at the beginning. That's exactly right.

Matt Loehrer (47:03)
Yeah, and they both kind of put up these walls to kind of

push people out.

Tug McTighe (47:07)
So Angus and Mr. Hunnam and Mary and Danny who's the janitor, they go to Lydia's party. There Angus meets Elise, Lydia's niece, they kiss. It's really cute and awkward and very fun. No, yes. ⁓ She has like a silver tree.

Matt Loehrer (47:21)
Are you trying to look down my shirt? No? Yes, I was. She doesn't seem to

Tug McTighe (47:30)
And Hanum says, I like your tree, it's very space age. She was, I bought it to commemorate the moon landing. Yeah, the Christmas party.

Matt Loehrer (47:36)
Yeah, let's we'll play that clip here.

He's just so awkward, but also self pitting like this sort of thing that any woman would hate this conversation where he's just feeling sorry. Right. Well, you know, it's interesting you say that because I was wondering, like, is this the same character? And is this pain is pain this guy? In real life.

Tug McTighe (47:46)
Right. Not a whole lot different than the sideways guy, Miles.

There's some,

there's clearly some pain in all these characters, clearly. Because it keeps, they keep coming back, this kind of guy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, similar for sure. So, Mary gets drunk at the party, has an emotional breakdown about Curtis, her son. They get her out of there.

Matt Loehrer (48:01)
Right, there's...

Yeah, I felt like he's the same character as his character in Sideways. It's the same guy.

Tug McTighe (48:18)
Danny the janitor really likes Mary. He's really sweet to her, He gives her a gift and she says I didn't give you anything and he says you gave me that great smile He's super super smooth And then Hunnam and Angus are arguing he doesn't want to leave because he's got the girl back there Angus mentions that his father is dead Mary scolds on him for being unsympathetic. Like there's a whole lot of shit to unpack

Matt Loehrer (48:25)
smooth. I knew what he was doing.

Tug McTighe (48:41)
And the reason is because it's the midpoint and you've got to have a lot of losing, right? ⁓ Yeah, right. And then just FYI, not to get morbid. I cannot imagine losing a child. So they play it, I think, really tenderly here. It's not over the top. But every time she brings it up, you're like, fuck, I can't imagine what she's going through.

Matt Loehrer (48:46)
It's all gonna fall apart, yeah.

No, it's tragic and it's the kind of thing you.

consciously have to just not think about because

Tug McTighe (49:07)
Yeah.

So just her playing this role. Yeah, I thought it was great. All right. then Hunnam, I'm saying the Grinch's heart grew one size that day. He, it kind of admonishes him. And Hunnam says, all right, this was Christmas Eve, party. So he wakes up, he goes and gets a tree.

Matt Loehrer (49:09)
But they did capture it so well.

Maybe?

Tug McTighe (49:29)
a little Charlie Brown tree and they have a little Christmas celebration and Dunham gives Angus the book Meditations by Marcus Aurelius and I have a lot of heart for Marcus Aurelius and the Stoics and Stoicism. I've really embraced it the past decade or so and it's really helped my life, changed my life and that book as well worth reading as is The Obstacles Away by Ryan Holiday who's kind of a modern day Stoic.

⁓ I highly recommend checking him out.

Matt Loehrer (49:55)
Nate Carlson

designed those books too. So if you go buy it, it probably won't look like that.

Tug McTighe (49:57)
There you go, they looked beautiful. They were perfect

70s copies. ⁓ Angus says something both sweet and horrible. Wow, this is like my first real family Christmas.

Matt Loehrer (50:03)
Absolutely.

Right. And he's, what, 17 years old.

Tug McTighe (50:11)
which is really sad. Yeah.

Matt Loehrer (50:13)
Mary persuades Hunnam to grant Angus's wish or a field trip to Boston, which he's hesitant, hesitant to do, but he says, okay. And they drop Mary off in Roxbury to spend time with her pregnant sister. And she gives her sister all of her son's baby clothes.

Tug McTighe (50:17)
Yeah, he just wants to go to Boston.

Yeah, she has a box of Curtis's stuff. She's maybe starting to, yep.

Matt Loehrer (50:32)
Yeah, so kind of a cathartic maybe coming to terms moment.

Angus and Hunnam.

Tug McTighe (50:36)
and by the way, Hunnam

says, well, technically it would fall under the other academic pursuits as outlined in the manual. He's just being a fucking curmudgeon about it. Other academic pursuits. Yeah. Yeah. He goes, there's even money in the budget.

Matt Loehrer (50:48)
He's kind of justify it somehow, right?

So Angus and Hunter Moore come through Boston, they go ice skating. Apparently that was for Dominic's. That was the hardest part of it, of the entire movie was the ice skating. It was just really, it was really hard for him. Yeah, they go to the Museum of Fine Arts. Paul Giamatti gets propositioned by a hooker outside.

Tug McTighe (51:04)
⁓ if you're not an ice skater, ice skating ain't fun.

Yep. And

Angus is like, I can wait here. Dad, can go. Right. And, the process.

Matt Loehrer (51:17)
She's like, just go in the alley. Right? doesn't, mind if daddy

gets a little candy cane.

Tug McTighe (51:23)
And then he goes, Giamatti goes, know, I never really liked candy canes. Plus I'm pre-diabetic. I just, it's just a great piece of copy.

Matt Loehrer (51:28)
This, I know that was great.

So this act, something like this actually happened to the writer David Hemmingsson when he was with his father as a boy. So he's incorporating this.

Tug McTighe (51:39)
See,

King's one of my favorite writers. And Stephen King has always asked, is this autobiographical? And he says, look, you're in, of course you're in every character you write, some piece of you is. But he goes, what's great about being a writer is you get to say, well, this is what happened. But wouldn't it be cool if this is what happened? So that's kind of what all this is, I think.

Matt Loehrer (51:46)
Everything is a bit.

Right.

That's great.

Angus gives Dunham some advice on how he should approach teaching.

Tug McTighe (52:05)
Yeah, cause he was, he was, they were in the museum and he was explaining some of the artifacts and why they're this and why they're that. And he goes, shit, man, you should try doing that in class. You know, that would, that's says, by the way, you know, everybody hates you, right? And I think the professors too. And he's like, yes, I'm aware.

Matt Loehrer (52:14)
Great, this would be interesting.

It's like. Yeah,

doesn't he say like if you incorporated this and also nudity? Or pornography?

Tug McTighe (52:28)
And also pornography, because it was right.

It was a lewd sculpture.

Matt Loehrer (52:32)
Right. ⁓ Yeah, we get some Cat Stevens music there.

Tug McTighe (52:35)
Good little

Matt Loehrer (52:36)
I really learned to appreciate Cat Stevens and Gordon Lightfoot's kind of in that same vein, that kind of laid back, mellow.

Tug McTighe (52:41)
Yep.

folk singer songwriter.

Matt Loehrer (52:45)
Yeah, like if I'm not feeling great, I'll just play sundown. I'm like, yeah, that's better. That's more like it. Crazy.

Tug McTighe (52:49)
Yeah, when he tells Hanum,

you know, everybody hates you. He goes, you know, right? And he goes, yes, I know, but you can see it. That it's it still stings. Yeah.

Matt Loehrer (52:57)
still hurts.

Tug McTighe (52:58)
here comes a big scene, right? And, this is the part you missed. the two are walking out Angus and Hunnam are walking out and they encounter a class former classmate Hunnam's from Harvard who's a successful academic himself. So Hunnam spins a yarn about his career says he's a

Teacher he was most recently in Antwerp all over the world. lies about his career Angus. Yes, and right away, but it's fucking with him He's like he's got a book out too. What's the title of the book? Isn't the one about cameras old cameras? He goes, I believe my nephew means the camera obscura He's still being a fucking pretentious dick right, but they make up a story and

Matt Loehrer (53:33)
Right? Even when he's lying.

Tug McTighe (53:40)
What you learn here is that Hunnam was expelled from Harvard after a rich legacy donor's son accused him of plagiarism. And was actually the kid was plagiarizing Hunnam. So he got kicked out of Harvard and he goes, but I got the last laugh because I hit him. You punch him out. goes, no, I hit him with my car. And what happened here was he kicked out of Harvard. He never finished school.

Matt Loehrer (53:52)
His word.

Tug McTighe (54:03)
He didn't have anywhere to go, the old Barton headmaster who liked him took pity on him and offered him an adjunct job there. And he's been there ever since.

Matt Loehrer (54:12)
Yeah, this is the scene I miss and it's a big scene. I don't know how I missed it the whole liquor store scene, but it's incredibly important. So we're going to play the audio now.

From the first time we see Hunnam's sadistic attitude toward these kids, I wondered why is he like this? Like what made him this way, right? Well, this is it. This is why he was accused of plagiarism. He was kicked out of Harvard all because his classmate, who lied and plagiarized him, but he was rich and powerful and Hunnam wasn't.

Tug McTighe (54:27)
Yeah, what's his motivation, right?

That's exactly right.

That's it, full stop. So he's from that day forward has rage against these kinds of kids.

Matt Loehrer (54:48)
Absolutely. But now he's in a position because he has this job. He's in a position where he either can abuse further generations of the same entitled brats that he hates so much and dash their dreams, which he does, or he can punish himself by putting himself in a position where he has to be around these entitled people and see it every day. Or maybe it's a little bit of both. I mean, ultimately, everything

Tug McTighe (55:07)
Right. Maybe it's both.

Matt Loehrer (55:11)
It like makes sense, but it's anger, it's regret, it's indignation, it's his feelings of being a fraud, it's self-loathing, it's a lie that he continues to perpetrate, and it's loneliness, it's all... Jumati puts it all out there. I mean...

Tug McTighe (55:26)
Yeah, he's

really good. And what you know, what we in a lot of these movies that we cover here are sort of the traditional hero's journey where you write art in act one. The world is in balance. It might suck, but it's in balance. Luke's on Tatooine. He hates it, but he has a house. He has food. It's working out. He hates it, but it's and then you have to go through the threshold.

to go to the upside down, world where it was balanced to where it's out of balance. But Dunham was like, it's act one. He hates this kind of kid and this kind of person, but he won't leave. He won't change his life. He won't write a book. He's clearly smart enough, right? But so like you said, he either keeps himself forced to interact with them.

Matt Loehrer (56:07)
locked in place.

Tug McTighe (56:12)
or is too afraid or too scared or whatever. It's just a really interesting character. And yeah, really important scene.

Matt Loehrer (56:18)
Yeah, it was the this is a fun fact. The liquor store clerk in the scene was the liquor store clerk at the liquor store where they shot this. He has one IMDB credit and that's it. He's.

Tug McTighe (56:26)
Yeah, on the... on the...

Hey, location! We found a liquor store right across from the hockey rink! Right. Right.

Matt Loehrer (56:30)
Yeah. He's like, that'll be $2. There you go, killer. Like that was, had two lines.

That's pretty, that was, they're like, hey, you know what? You could, do you want to be this, be this guy? Do it.

Tug McTighe (56:39)
really, really beautiful. Yeah.

And they keep saying, Hey, this stays between us. Entre nous. Right. but they are continuing to grow closer. We also in a very charming, I thought scene about depression. Angus is going to shower and he drops a pill bottle out of his dog kit and he goes, you take Librium for depression. And he goes, no, it's for my acne or something.

And then he closed the door and then Giamatti, Ahanum turns around, picks up a pill bottle out of his Dove kit that says, Librium for depression, pops a pill. So again, they're growing closer, becoming important to each other. It's really wonderful,

Hunnam and Angus are seeing a movie. They're watching Little Big Man with Dustin Hoffman, another movie of its time, but pretty, fun movie to watch. Angus says, got to take a pee and he starts to sneak out and Hunnam realizes he's leaving, he runs out and he's trying to get into a cab. And this is that great seventies snap zoom where it's a long lens.

Matt Loehrer (57:24)
It was a great one.

Tug McTighe (57:37)
You see him getting in the cab, you know, a hundred feet away and Giamatti comes into the frame and he goes, Hey, and then they, they snap zoom to Angus, which it's just, you don't do it today. It's a cut, but it's just a beautiful piece of cinematography. ⁓ and Angus says, look, I just want to, I gotta do this thing. I'm not trying to run out on you. I gotta go see my father and Hanum goes, of course we can go to the cemetery. He goes, okay, he's not at a cemetery.

they end up at a psychiatric hospital and yeah.

Matt Loehrer (58:05)
Hey, can I mention something about shots too?

There are a lot of wide shots in this where a lot of and then that was intentional to the cinematographer wanted to.

Tug McTighe (58:10)
Yes.

Matt Loehrer (58:15)
early in the film.

create the idea that all these people are very much separated. So it's wide shots with people entering and leaving and they're far apart. And as the film progresses, you get more shots where people are tighter, they're together, they're closer because they're growing closer. So that was.

Tug McTighe (58:19)
Okay.

We get them tighter.

See this is

again Hey everyone cinema's public service announcement For the most part they're doing it on purpose Sometimes it's an accident but man, I'm telling you most of time it's thought through these guys work real hard on these movies So

They go to the psychiatric hospital. His dad is broken. Angus is trying to connect with him.

he pours out his heart and the dad reaches over and grabs his hands and says Angus, I have to tell you something. And the look on this kid's face, like he's about to make a connection with his long lost father is so palpable. And his dad says, I think they're putting something in my food. So he's clearly gone. Angus is even sadder than he was.

And then they get in the cab and there's some really powerful stuff here where Angus is like, I'm on these fucking pills. I'm depressed. I steal stuff. I'm probably gonna get kicked out again. I don't know why I do it. I'm going to turn into him. And Hanum says, look, you're not your father. You're a lot of things. You're not your father. You're your own man. goes, well, you're adolescent again. I mean, you're an adolescent, but you're your own person. Um, really great speech. We'll, we'll play it here.

Matt Loehrer (59:36)
Yeah, and a really impressive, in my opinion, performance by Dominic Sessa. Like, is, again, it's his first movie. ⁓ Really moving, really emotional. And it makes me wonder, who's Paul Giamatti talking to? He's talking to Angus, obviously, but.

Tug McTighe (59:41)
by this kid, this unknown kid. Yeah, really great.

talking to himself. Of course he is.

Matt Loehrer (59:54)
Yeah, I have a crazy

then Mary comes.

Tug McTighe (59:56)
Okay.

Yeah, they're at the restaurant and they're meeting Mary because I got to drive back to school.

Matt Loehrer (1:00:03)
So the server who's amazing in this, I think she's so good. The woman that plays server, I don't even know who it is. But ⁓ she's she says, Do you want dessert? They're like, Well, yeah, what's that? It's, know, Angus points and it's, that's our specialty. It's cherries Jubilee. They're like, Okay, let's get that. She's like, you can't have that.

Tug McTighe (1:00:05)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

that has alcohol in it. And then

Mary, Mary, the chef goes, doesn't the alcohol get burned off in the, when you light on fire? Yes, but it's still, he's underage. And ⁓ he says Christ on a crutch. What kind of a fascist hash foundry are you running here? I

Matt Loehrer (1:00:30)
I hope that Jemani has the best line.

And the server just

she's like got this frozen smile the whole time and she just drops it. She's just like.

Tug McTighe (1:00:44)
Right. So then Mary, of course,

can we have some cherries and some ice cream to go? So they make cherries Jubilee on the hood of the car.

Matt Loehrer (1:00:51)
It was really, it was really neat for me to see these characters because the movie didn't start that long ago. You can remember where they were at the beginning when they were solitary, lonely people, all of them very far apart, all of them very isolated and to come together to create this makeshift family.

Tug McTighe (1:00:59)
Very far apart, yes.

Matt Loehrer (1:01:08)
is really satisfying and genuine. feels right. It feels natural.

Tug McTighe (1:01:09)
Yeah. Found

family is a trope that is almost always satisfying.

So then they all get to go, Hunnam, Angus, Mary and Danny celebrate New Year's Eve together. And you get to hear the memory in memory of Elizabeth Reed by the Allman Brothers, one of my favorite Allman Brothers songs, which is just like how Little Bear Graphics is one of my favorite sponsors. in the holdovers, Mr. Dunham and the kids are having a shitty Christmas break.

Matt Loehrer (1:01:28)
I do have several favorites.

Tug McTighe (1:01:35)
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Matt Loehrer (1:02:06)
Always great.

Tug McTighe (1:02:07)
you get connected to the in memory of Elizabeth Reed, which we will never be able to separate from now on.

Matt Loehrer (1:02:12)
Perfect. A moment.

Tug McTighe (1:02:13)
Right. You pick us up after the New Year.

Matt Loehrer (1:02:15)
So in January, school resumes and Hunnam summoned to Woodrope's office. He's the weasley Dean that we hate. And Angus's mother and stepfather are there. And they tell Hunnam that Angus is not allowed to see his father and that among other things, Angus had given his father a snow globe when they visited, which he used to assault somebody.

Tug McTighe (1:02:21)
Yes.

Yep, he sold that

snow globe from,

when he was hanging out at the party. Yeah, yeah.

Matt Loehrer (1:02:37)
Oh yeah, he was looking at it at the Christmas party.

Yeah, so when he talks about stealing stuff, you did. It led to an outburst that really ruined everything because now the father has this expectation that he's going to be able to come home, so now they have to move him somewhere else. So they are threatening to withdraw Angus from Barton and send him to the military.

Tug McTighe (1:02:41)
Yep.

They gotta move and they gotta f***. Right.

And then again,

the recognizable Tate Donovan is like, we're to send this kid to military school. That'll set him straight. Like that sort of classic.

Matt Loehrer (1:03:05)
Pretty much.

Yeah, it was horrible. And it's, and they give him the opportunity. Just tell us what he did. Tell us what Angus did to trick you. We know he did this. Did he like skirt you somehow? Did he give you the slip? So there's an opportunity for Jumadi. This is his Rubicon, right? He can get out of it or he can not get out of it. He could tell the truth.

Tug McTighe (1:03:13)
Hey, we know he's an ass. We know he's yes.

Right.

to weasel out of it.

Matt Loehrer (1:03:30)
which would mean saying, hey, he kind of really wanted to do this and I said I would do it. Or he can lie, which is what he does.

Tug McTighe (1:03:37)
He

says, told him to do it.

Matt Loehrer (1:03:38)
Yeah, I, you know, not only did I suggest it, I insisted he do it. ⁓ Yeah, we'll we'll play this clip because it's really well done. The writing's great. The delivery is great.

Tug McTighe (1:03:42)
That's right.

It's a great joke about penis cancer.

Matt Loehrer (1:03:49)
He

tells his exit line with the Dean wardrobe is, I've known you for a long time and I feel like I'm qualified to say that you are and always have been penis cancer in human form. And it's like, how do you respond to that?

Tug McTighe (1:04:04)
another laugh out loud. That's

great. So good. and then Angus, they're talking and, Angus says, Hey man, by the way, which one of your eyes am I supposed to look at? Cause I've never known. And, and he tells them, look at this one. And what I think that means is that I, Hunnam want you to see me. I want you to look in

Matt Loehrer (1:04:23)
I agree.

Tug McTighe (1:04:24)
I want you to look in my eyes and see me and I want to see you.

Matt Loehrer (1:04:27)
Yeah, I may not tell everybody this, but I want you to know this is this is the real me. This is where you look. I thought that was really great. ⁓ I love that he stole that cognac bottle from Woodruff's office.

Tug McTighe (1:04:29)
I'm telling you, that's That's right. Yep.

Yeah, another checkouts

gun. You know, some, I think it was one of the, maybe the kiddie didn't pass. Yeah, his father sent me this expensive bottle of cognac.

Matt Loehrer (1:04:48)
That was a Remy Martin, Louis Louis the 13th trade via trade deal. I took sophomore year French. That's as far as I got ⁓ the the satin gift box in 1970. It cost 1300 bucks. What do think it's worth now?

Tug McTighe (1:04:57)
That's as far as it, yeah, you could use another year.

That's gotta be a hundred grand.

Matt Loehrer (1:05:07)
Well, no, it's 10 grand, but that's still a lot.

Tug McTighe (1:05:09)
⁓ seems like a lot.

Matt Loehrer (1:05:10)
Yeah, actually, I it would be more, 10,000 bottles. So he stole a $10,000 bottle of cognac. So good for him.

Tug McTighe (1:05:12)
⁓ so.

Right after we get

Yeah, and he's right. You see him packing up his office. By the way, he has a giant box of meditations by Seneca. So that wasn't that heartfelt of a gift. ⁓ But Mary comes in and says goodbye and she seems to be coming to terms. She says she's gonna start a college fund for her.

Matt Loehrer (1:05:24)
No, it wasn't.

Tug McTighe (1:05:36)
sister Peggy's baby if it's a boy the middle names can be Curtis so there's growing there and coming to terms with it and she gives him a notebook for his monograph

Matt Loehrer (1:05:45)
And then Hunnam and Angus share their farewell. Angus comes to him. He's leaving. He says, I don't know what you told them, but I'm not going to military school. And Hunnam replies, I just told the truth. And Angus says, Barton man. And he says, Barton man. it's it's a sweet it's it's a heartfelt and realistic. They end up there's not a hug like I feel like that would have been schmaltzy, but there's a

Tug McTighe (1:05:50)
Right.

Barton man.

but a tough hand, a strong

handshake. Very, very men, very 70, very stiff upper lip, upper crust. Yeah. But for real, I felt it was real. Right. And again, we just, he just told him, look in this eye. That's the one. So.

Matt Loehrer (1:06:10)
Right, their faces are kind of screwed up.

Yeah, I did too. It felt very.

Right. That's the one. And

Hunnam gets in his car. He's pulling a little like a U-Haul trailer behind him. He gets to the end of the road, takes a swing of the cognac, swishes it around, and spits it out. And he drives away. Now, one thing I don't agree with my brilliant mother, is that she thought he paused there before he

Tug McTighe (1:06:28)
Thank you, all.

spits it right out on them right back at the school.

Matt Loehrer (1:06:46)
turn as though he wasn't sure which way to go. But I don't think that was the case on rewatch heats. He paused to kind of. Right? ⁓ I think it's and kind of shaken the dust from his shoes as he leaves town because he's not coming back and then he just he just goes. ⁓ So that's that's exciting. So what do you think? Closing thoughts buddy.

Tug McTighe (1:06:48)
No. Uh-uh. So he could... He's spitting on them. Yeah.

Yep. Yep.

drives away and that's

⁓

I fucking loved it. I really did. I like sideways quite a bit. I like this 10 times better than sideways. there's so much good stuff in here, Matt. I need to watch it again. And I feel like, I don't know. No, I don't know. Something about the coming of age aspect of it. The time era. I love seventies music. You love seventies music. It just, yeah.

Matt Loehrer (1:07:19)
I agree. Why do I like it so much better than Sideways? I mean, I didn't dislike Sideways, but I just like this a lot better.

And the time, I think the era when it was set, I think helped.

Tug McTighe (1:07:34)
I really feel like this could be a Christmas, New Year's. Let's watch Holdovers. And I get to tell you, for me, this kind of real life poignant comedy drama, it scratches an itch that's just in me intrinsically. And it feels like I said, not just set in 70, it feels like it was made then. So I was thinking about actual movies.

Matt Loehrer (1:07:39)
Right?

Tug McTighe (1:07:55)
that are similar to this that came out around that time. Graduate 67. Funny, not so funny, heartfelt, listless character trying to find himself. Harold and Maude, if you haven't seen that, a delicious movie came out in 71 with Ruth Gordon and Bud Court where he's a 19 year old kid that falls in love with a 79 year old woman. He's obsessed with death. Great movie, Cat Stephen soundtrack.

American Graffiti, George Lucas's breakthrough. just, I loved how Payne made this movie like them in content, but also cinematography, performance, look and feel. just, liked, obviously I liked it a lot.

Matt Loehrer (1:08:33)
Very good. Interesting. mentioned this is a Christmas movie. Alexander Payne apparently finds the label Christmas movie nauseating his words and hopes the movie

Tug McTighe (1:08:40)
Once again, maybe he is,

maybe he is Miles. Yeah.

Matt Loehrer (1:08:45)
I think he is. He just he

says I hope this movie just stand on its own. I think he might be the cheerless curmudgeon. He writes his characters as I think that's him. Anyway. This deserves a full rewatch.

Tug McTighe (1:08:51)
The apple doesn't fall too far from the tree.

Matt Loehrer (1:08:57)
we talked about this. I prefer to watch the episode. The movie we talked about all the way through and then again to make those observations, I just didn't have the time with this. I just wish I had the time with this one and I didn't so much of this movie. OK, so again, and Laura, brilliant.

Tug McTighe (1:09:03)
Yeah, yeah, it's just much easier. Yeah.

Matt Loehrer (1:09:11)
So much of this movie revolves around honesty and dishonesty, how a lie can create a foundation for a lifetime of lies, but at the same time, having a rigid code that says you always have to tell the truth can be just as bad. I think this is a time travel.

Tug McTighe (1:09:27)
Okay, hit me with this.

Matt Loehrer (1:09:29)
OK, I

feel like Angus is younger. It's like Looper. He's a younger version of Hanna. Hanna is the mentor or Hanna is the wisdom or the good decision, the older version that he never had for himself. And this is how he breaks out of that time loop. He's he's there to correct his younger self because at the end of this movie, I love I love when they part. Hanna says, keep your head up.

Tug McTighe (1:09:35)
⁓

Matt Loehrer (1:09:53)
You can do this. It was right after they shook hands and I'm like, are they going to hug? They didn't hug. Keep your heads up. Keep your head up. You can do this. And Angus says, I was going to say the same to you. they're on these parallel paths. It's a very, it's less ambiguous than the sideways ending, I think. And it's a more optimistic one. I'm confident that.

Tug McTighe (1:09:57)
Right.

I was gonna tell you the same thing.

Yeah, and again,

like if you treat all three of these acts, if you treat this full film like act one, they're both now going off.

on their hero's journey.

Matt Loehrer (1:10:21)
Yeah, I love character development, even when it's small, even when it's... Yeah, it was 100%.

Tug McTighe (1:10:23)
Yeah, it's okay. Hey, if you learn one thing you still learn. ⁓ I'll take it.

This that's called headcanon. You've written a piece of headcanon.

Matt Loehrer (1:10:34)
Yeah, hot tug, sin a hit, sin a miss. Don't even need to ask.

Tug McTighe (1:10:37)
Yeah, 100%. I'm

going to put it in the rotation. Now I'm going to show it to Sean and Nick and Sarah. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Loehrer (1:10:40)
Yes, ⁓ I invited.

Good, absolutely. I

invited some buddies, my friend Steve and Brian. So we're a neighborhood group, the Stupendous Six, there are six of us, three couples. Yeah, that's very cool. I know we hang out a lot and the wives all went to Bunko, which is something that wives do apparently. They do. So I contacted the guys and said, hey, the girls are all gone. So do you want to watch this movie? And they were.

Tug McTighe (1:10:52)
I love it. Sounds like a Marvel bad guy.

That's something that the ladies do.

Matt Loehrer (1:11:08)
not available and I'm glad they weren't available. Yeah, like John Wick we should watch together like the like the next movie we watch we could watch. I'd love to watch with these guys. ⁓ This is very much. I think you show that you watch by yourself or you watch with people that you're. You know you're very close to and are have the same sensibility and.

Tug McTighe (1:11:09)
Maybe there, yeah, maybe there's better movies to watch with a group of dudes.

Yeah, right.

Right.

Yeah, yeah,

it does feel more like a let's sit down on a cold winter's night and It's not it's not right. There's no fist pumps at the end ⁓ Okay, so as we always say, please help us grow the show Thank you for listening to sin and misses if you like what we're doing here Subscribe share some episodes write a review. It really does help

Matt Loehrer (1:11:34)
Yeah, it wasn't a crazy, crazy action, action. Right.

Tug McTighe (1:11:50)
even better tell someone you think might like it to listen. We want to hear from you. Follow us and comment on socials. We're to launch tick tock pretty soon. Please drop us a line at cinemassagemail.com with ideas on how to make the show better and recos for movies we may want to cover. All right, Matt, what is our next cinemass and what does our cinemasser think he knows?

Matt Loehrer (1:12:09)
Okay, our first film from a new director who made a lot of movies in the 80s and 90s and is still working today. that is, who is that? Michael Mann. So that's fun to do a new director. Like we need to dive in on it. Yes, and the movie in question is.

Tug McTighe (1:12:16)
Michael Mayer.

Yes, and he's a big timer.

Heat!

Matt Loehrer (1:12:25)
right. It's been

Tug McTighe (1:12:26)
Al Pacino, Robert

De Niro, Val Kilmer.

Matt Loehrer (1:12:29)
Bell Kilmer, right? This came up when we were doing Kiss Kiss Bang Bang. So as I was doing research for that, was like dodging bullets to not read about heat because you know what I mean?

Tug McTighe (1:12:32)
Yes, it did.

Yeah, it's so hard when you haven't,

when you haven't seen you guys, when you're the cinema misser and you're trying to do your research to get ready, but you haven't seen it yet. You're like, spoiler alert, Jesus.

Matt Loehrer (1:12:47)
Right. I can't go down that rabbit hole. as I understand it, it features De Niro and Pacino. And what did that cost? I bet a lot. Val Kilmer, who we just covered in our Kiss Kiss Bang Bang episode, as I mentioned. So if you haven't listened to that, go listen to it.

Tug McTighe (1:12:55)
more than eight bucks.

Matt Loehrer (1:13:03)
⁓ I assume it's about a heist or a crime or the mob or something. I assume there will be gunfire. I really don't know anything about it, but I'm pretty sure it's going to be amazing and I can't wait to talk.

Tug McTighe (1:13:13)
I can't wait either, it's gonna be awesome.

Matt Loehrer (1:13:14)
All right, that's another Cinemuses in the Can. I am Matt.

Tug McTighe (1:13:17)
I'm Tug. That's a wrap. I made it through with the COVID voice. Get your boosters everybody. Bye.

Matt Loehrer (1:13:21)
Alright, we'll see you guys. We'll see you guys next time.