CINEMISSES! Being John Malkovich

In this episode, Matt and Tug explore the surrealist film Being John Malkovich directed by Spike Jonze and written by Charlie Kaufman. The fellas discuss its unique storytelling, character development, and the impact of its innovative approach on cinema. There is much pontification about if there are, in fact, too many ideas that don't ever really get paid off. Diving pretty deep on the characters, their motivations, the hosts profess their like for some of what we see and their disdain for other stuff. Plus, three count 'em, three Seinfeld connections! It's a complex story, and Matt and Tug try their best to make sense of it. The one thing they can agree on: Nobody wants to enter a tunnel into Tug's brain. Nobody.

Check us at INSTAGRAM

Find us on X

EMAIL: Cinemisses@gmail.com

Transcript

Matt (00:00)
You're listening to Cinemisses, a podcast about movies that one or the other of your two hosts just never got around to seeing. I'm Matt.

Tug McTighe (00:06)
I'm tug and we're reminding you that anybody can make a podcast about movies. have seen we're here because we haven't. Thank you for joining us on cinema misses and action.

Matt (00:15)
Nice, hey, I have a challenge. Yeah, I like the energy. I wanted to kick this off with a little quiz, a challenge for you. Because I was thinking about this the other day.

Tug McTighe (00:16)
Energetic! Off to a good start!

I like it. Okay, I'm However, now

ladies and gentlemen, I have not been briefed on this quiz. So this is be true off-the-cuff stuff

Matt (00:32)
Yeah, you're going in cold.

So I was thinking about a performer that without exception, everything I've ever seen this person and I have enjoyed. And I have enjoyed this person and everything I've ever seen them in. So I'm going to give you some of their performances from most obscure to more mainstream ones that you would probably know. you tell me.

Tug McTighe (00:41)
Okay?

Okay, and I'm trying to

tell you who the actor is, the performer.

Matt (00:56)
Yes,

tell me when you think you know who it is. OK, so this person played Mr. Nobody in the first season of Doom Patrol. He played a bounty hunter in the second season of jerk Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency. He played Van Wayne, Bruce Wayne's cousin in a short lived series called powerless that I think was on.

Tug McTighe (00:58)
Very good.

Okay? Nope.

Okay.

Old Van Wayne.

Matt (01:19)
the WB,

Tug McTighe (01:19)
Not yet.

Matt (01:20)
not yet. He plays currently an alien who came to Earth, murdered a doctor living in Colorado. Yes, it is in Resident Alien at Sound Tutic. He's also done voice work. He was the chicken in Moana. He was K2SO in Rogue One, and he's the Superman robot in James Gunn Superman. And he's been in a million things, right?

Tug McTighe (01:27)
Alan Tudyk.

In the Superman, yeah. ⁓

my gosh. Alan Tudyk is a national treasure.

Matt (01:44)
He is. He was the voice of King Candy in Wreck-It Ralph. He I don't know if you know this, the TV show Peacemaker, WC's Peacemaker with John Cena. The intro choreography for season one, Alan Tudyk's wife is a choreographer and choreographed that piece and used him.

Tug McTighe (01:51)
Yep. Yep.

Okay. I like this.

I like that she choreographed it.

Matt (02:06)
She choreographed it. Anyway, she used him to test it. Like she's like, okay, now do this, now do this. So he did that dance, that goofy dance that they do in that. So I mentioned this because he's amazing, but the things I have enjoyed him in the very most have been the weirdest things.

Tug McTighe (02:12)
I'm teaching you these moves. That's awesome.

Matt (02:25)
So Mr. Nobody and Doom Patrol and that bounty hunter, Dirk Gently's holistic detective agency, it ran two seasons and it was just too weird for anybody but me. I was like, give me more. And they're like, no. The reason I mention it is that believe it or not, there was a time in the late 90s when people wanted weird.

Tug McTighe (02:32)
Okay, I love it. Yep.

Just weird. Weird for weird sake.

Matt (02:44)
Yeah, and they got it. And a great example is the movie that we're going to talk about tonight, which is Charlie Kaufman and Spike Jonze's Being John Malkovich.

Tug McTighe (02:50)
Being John Malkovich. Yeah, Being John Malkovich.

1999, is that correct? All right, so as always, we asked the person who hasn't seen the movie, in this case it's you, what he thought he knew about it going into that. What did you think you knew about Spike Jonze and Charlie Kaufman's Being John Malkovich?

Matt (02:56)
I believe so.

A great question, and I will answer it. But because it's going to come up again, I don't know how much of this movie is Spike Jonze and how much is Charlie Kaufman. So like you, I'm just going to kind of make it their movie.

Tug McTighe (03:19)
Yeah, it's

hard to know. I think Charlie was pretty involved.

Matt (03:22)
Yeah, so I knew the basics.

Tug McTighe (03:23)
And for all of

you, Charlie is the writer, Spike Jones is the director, but again, it's gonna be hard to understand where one ends and the other begins.

Matt (03:30)
Yeah, they're kind of like a merged symbiotic being. So I knew the basics of the movie. At some point in my life, I thought I've never seen this movie and I'm never going to, so I'll just go down the Wikipedia rabbit hole and read about it. But you know, that doesn't tell you everything. doesn't even, a lot of times it doesn't tell you much of anything. I knew it'd start John Cusack and John Malkovich, obviously. I knew the premise.

Tug McTighe (03:42)
Sure, of course. Right.

Nope. No.

Matt (03:52)
was that there's a little room somewhere you can enter and you enter the body of John Malkovich for an unspecified period of time. And that at the end of that experience, you're ejected from his consciousness and bodily end up on the Jersey turnpike in a ditch. And the Hows and the Whys of it I didn't know, I thought, I know that and that I think rang true.

Tug McTighe (04:02)
You

Yep.

yeah. Well, nailed it. As I said to you, when we were talking about doing this movie, we had just done Weapons, which the trailer tells you something, but it doesn't tell you the half of it. So that little synopsis tells you something about what this movie, all of it's true, but it's not even the half of what happens in this movie. So let's go to the log line as we always do. A down and out puppeteer.

discovers a portal that leads literally into the head of movie star John Malkovich.

Matt (04:37)
There you go.

Tug McTighe (04:38)
And I can't tell you what a shock that this movie got made so quickly. I mean, with that log line. So again, like you said, weird. You're in for a weird ride. Okay. So let's talk about what it's about. So Being John Malkovich is a 1999 American surrealist fantasy comedy drama film. There's a lot to unpack right there. Again, directed by Spike Jones and written by Charlie Kaufman.

Matt (04:42)
Right.

Tug McTighe (04:59)
both making their feature film debut. So this is one of those ones like a little like Night Shyamalan where he came out. His debut was Sixth Sense and you're like, whoa, this guy's got something to say. And then it turns out that Night didn't, in my mind didn't have a lot to say after that. I'm doing it again and again. But I mean, bang and debut for these guys. It's got John Cusack, Cameron Diaz, Catherine Keener in the.

Matt (05:14)
Well, he the same thing to say, just he said it over and over again, 25 times.

Tug McTighe (05:23)
Mostly it's a little bit like a play that way where there's three or four main people and that's it and then side characters and then John Malkovich playing some shade of himself and as the logline says Cusack plays a puppeteer who finds a portal that enters leads into Malkovich's mind it's it's even weirder than it it Than I'm saying it is right?

The development of it was super interesting as well. Kaufman, the writer, his idea was, well, it's just a man who falls in love with someone who's not his wife. Again, technically that happens in this movie, but Jesus Christ, there's a long, a circuitous route to get there. Gradually, he added further elements of the story, which he found entertaining, such as floor seven and a half of the Merton-Flemmer building.

Matt (05:53)
you

Tug McTighe (06:03)
Merton flemer is a fun word to say He wrote the script on spec in 94 and that was widely read by production comedy film studio execs Shocker everybody turned it down. I like this is just too freaking weird, bro Hoping to find a producer Kaufman sent the script to francis ford coppola Of the godfather fame who passed it on to his daughter sophia the baby

in Godfather being baptized. Then boyfriend, she was dating Spike Jones, the director. And then he read it in 96, agreed to direct in 97. They took it to Propaganda Films, which also made a bunch of commercials in the old days because Spike Jones was a commercial director at first. and they agreed to produce the film in partnership with single cell pictures and single cell producers. Michael Stipe of REM.

And Sandy's turn agreed to make the film.

Matt (06:52)
Right, I had to look that up. Michael Stipe, for our younger viewers, if there are any, he was the front man of REM. And at the time, I think REM was one of the biggest rock and kind of bands in the world. Right, Spike Jonze, this was always confusing to me too, because the band had a song called Up on Cripple Creek. You know that one? Right, the band, the band, Robbie Robertson, the band.

Tug McTighe (07:02)
100 % biggest fans in the world. Yep.

the not the band R.E.M., the band, the Yeah, yeah.

Matt (07:16)
had a

song called Up on Cripple Creek that references Spike Jones. I can't stand the way he sings, but I love to hear him talk. But that was made in, I think, 1969 or 70. So Spike Jones actually is a nickname for the director, Spike Jones. That's not his actual full name. he had directed a lot of music videos.

Tug McTighe (07:23)
love to hear him talk. That's right.

Right. Right. Right.

Matt (07:38)
before his first feature film, is the one we're talking about, including two REM videos in 95 and 96 for Crush with Eyeliner and Electrolyte. Do you remember those songs? Because I know.

Tug McTighe (07:47)
I do I

remember crush with eyeliner that was in that month. think monster era Maybe even after yeah Yeah, bye bye 97 yeah for sure So type and Stern the producers pitched the film to numerous studios including new line cinema

Matt (07:51)
Okay, maybe if I heard it, I'd know it, but I don't know that I was listening to lot of R.E.M. by 1996.

Tug McTighe (08:06)
who dropped the project after chairman Robert Shea said, why the fuck can it be being Tom Cruise? So you see that that may be Matt, the best encapsulation of a studio fuck job. ⁓ Every note that any studio ever gave a creator can be boiled down into that. Jones recalled that Malkovich said either this movie is a bomb and it got not only my name above the title,

Matt (08:18)
Right.

Tug McTighe (08:30)
But my name in the title, so I'm fucked that way or it does well and I'm just forever associated with this character Who is himself but not himself? So again, it's you're you're in this absurd meta Sir circle of craziness already just in the making

Matt (08:45)
Yeah, but it was a brave of him to do that. ⁓ And especially saying, it's an art piece, then I think you can do that. I don't think this would have worked with Tom Cruise. I don't know how many actors it could have worked with. Yeah, not weird enough, but at the same time, Malcolm, he was weirdo, but he was still mainstream and probably at his acting peak. I did the research. He was in his mid-40s. He'd already appeared in the killing fields, Places in the Heart.

Tug McTighe (08:48)
100 %!

Not weird enough. Yeah. Malcolm is a weirdo. Malcolm is a weirdo.

Matt (09:13)
And he'd done Con Air already. Like he was a mainstream actor. And he'd been nominated twice for a best supporting actor. So he was culturally established. Yeah.

Tug McTighe (09:15)
So he was in, he was in the whole, yeah.

Yeah, he was a dangerous liaisons. Yeah.

Yeah, he was a he was a famous working actor. For sure.

Matt (09:26)
Yeah, so I

think, but still, like you said, kind of a weirdo, so it worked.

Tug McTighe (09:30)
Yeah, you go.

Matt (09:31)
$10 million budget principal photography began on July 20th 1998 and continued through August so pretty quick. Primarily took place.

Tug McTighe (09:39)
Yep. This

is a tight couple of sets. Right? There's not a giant amount of production pieces here.

Matt (09:43)
Yeah, they weren't all over the place.

And not a lot of actors. There aren't a ton of moving parts to work together. So that made sense.

Tug McTighe (09:50)
No, very small. Yeah, very small production.

Matt (09:54)
The puppets were created by Camila, Portuguese Robbins and Images in Motion. Philip Huber animated the puppets. So the puppetry we see at the beginning of this movie and on the street, that's all actual, that's not special effects, that's puppetry. That's actually really impressive.

Tug McTighe (10:07)
That's actual puppetry.

Yeah, it's really, really cool as a giant Jim Henson fan and I'm watching you don't see a lot about puppets, but really cool puppetry in this for sure.

Matt (10:18)
Yeah,

and tradition, I mean, marionette control with rods and strings and this sort of thing. So if nothing else, if you don't watch the whole movie, go to YouTube and watch the intro because it's really impressive.

Tug McTighe (10:23)
Yes, yes.

Yeah,

very.

Matt (10:32)
Released by USA Films, widespread acclaim from critics, praise for its writing direction, 23 million against the $13 million budget, so that's pretty good. I was nominated for what it was. That's really pretty good. And the fact that we're still talking about it this much later. ⁓

Tug McTighe (10:36)
pretty much from the top. Everybody loved it.

Yes, it was never going to make $100 million.

Fair fair

Matt (10:53)
Nominated in three categories at the Academy Awards, best director, best original screenplay and best supporting actress for Keener.

What are the numbers here, Tug?

Tug McTighe (11:02)
Rotten tomatoes 94 on the tomato meter. That's 133 reviews from the critics. They loved it and popcorn meter 85 250,000 plus ratings from the from the customer so You know liked well liked And like I said, you know, we're saying like 23 million against a budget of 13 not not great But not bad for that for what it is and and what it was But boy it really won

In the court of public opinion my god

Matt (11:28)
Yeah,

absolutely. So the internet tells me that $13 million in 1999 would be $25 million today, But if you look at other similar works that Charlie Coffin was doing around that time, and there were a bunch, I think this hit and he thought, hey, I've got a lot of material I can crank out.

Adaptation did similar numbers. Eternal Sunshine and Spotless Mind had a similar budget but earned significantly more at the box office probably due to Jim Carrey's involvement.

Tug McTighe (11:54)
Jim Carrey

was Jim Carrey at that moment.

Matt (11:57)
Yeah, I wonder how many people walked in and thought, oh, it's going to be like Ace Ventura, a pet detective. it was nothing like that. Synecdoche, New York. Did you watch that at all? Philip Seymour Hoffman. Really interesting. I haven't seen it, but I know enough about it that I'd probably watch it. That bombed. But again, it was made for 20 million. if it's, you know, the year 2000 and you're thinking about adapting a Charlie Kaufman screenplay, just know that you need to get 20 million dollars and you might make money and you might not.

Tug McTighe (12:00)
It is not.

I have seen it.

Yep. Yep.

You probably won't make any money, but people are gonna love it. And I've seen a lot of those. I've seen Eternal Sunshine. I've seen Adaptation. Adaptation is super weird, doesn't make a lot of sense. Eternal is super weird, make some sense, and I like it.

Matt (12:31)
I don't think you could even make it. I

don't...

I'm not sure they were even able to make adaptation the way he wrote it. They had to turn the movie into something very different. The movie ended up being a movie about the story they were trying to make, but not the story itself. my gosh, it's exhausting.

Tug McTighe (12:40)
It had to become something. Yeah.

about adapting the movie.

So again, inside base, inside meta, meta inside head, you know, weird, absurdist, quasi normal, abnormal. What's that?

Matt (12:55)
Let's talk about what the critics. Yeah,

crazy. Let's talk about what the critics thought because they, thought were effusive in their praise.

Tug McTighe (13:02)
Very much so. So a Fuse of is a great word. $5 to Gryffindor. Smart, funny, and highly original. Being John Malkovich supports the wild premise with skillful direction and a stellar ensemble cast is Rotten Tomatoes take. On Metacritic, the film has a weighted average score of 90 out of 100 based on 36 critics reviews indicating universal acclaim in quotes. Roger Ebert, four stars.

Matt (13:06)
Thank you.

Tug McTighe (13:26)
What an endlessly inventive movie this is! Charlie Kaufman, the writer being John Malkiewicz, supplies a dazzling stream of inventions, twists and wicked paradoxes, and the director, Spike Jonze, doesn't pounce on each one like a fresh prey, but unveils it slyly as if there's more where that came from. The movie has ideas enough for half a dozen films, but Jonze and his cast hand out them so surely that we never feel hard pressed. We're enchanted by one development after the next. I'm not sure enchanted is the right word.

Matt (13:51)
Mm-mm.

Tug McTighe (13:51)
He

There there's just a lot of critics Really loving this Owen Gleiberman for entertainment weekly said the most excitingly original movie of the year fair Fair but again, I they loved it

Matt (14:01)
Wow.

Right, yeah, and I agree it was unique and original and creative, but was it good or was it that good? And I give Roger Ebert a lot of props, know, heavenly props, but I would love to, and perhaps I will after this, go back and look at 1999, what was made that year, how these have all withstood the test of time and did any of them do better.

Tug McTighe (14:24)
Well, yeah, there's a

great book. you Google a book about movies in 1999, it's like there's a belief out there in the world. It was the best year for movies in the last 50 years or maybe ever.

Matt (14:40)
Yeah, so I'd want to revisit that opinion. I have a feeling that reviewers watch a lot of movies. I think when something original comes up, they pounce on it. I feel like a lot of them probably fell in line to impress one another, because I think movie critics do that a lot. And then the average viewer like you and me saw it, and they were like Homer Simpson when he was watching Twin Peaks.

my impression is that it was way overrated and people didn't want to feel stupid by saying, I don't get it or I don't like it. So they all said, yeah, this is brilliant.

Tug McTighe (15:06)
Yep.

Yep. All right. Speaking of brilliant, our title sponsor, Little Bear Graphics, the little graphic shop that could. So if you're working with Little Bear, you don't have to get inside anybody's brain. You don't have to file any files. You don't even have to get spat out on the side of the New Jersey Turnpike or even in South Olathe, Kansas. All you need to do

If you want websites, branded merch, marketing materials, collateral, even killer campaigns, is get a hold of Matt Lohr at Little Bear Graphics, and he will sort it out. He won't fall in love with you. If you're his wife, he won't make you bring the chimpanzee home. He won't even lock you in a cage until you sign the check. LittleBear.graphics is your partner, not in crime, but in marketing.

and not in weird movies, but in making glorious design work come to life.

Matt (15:57)
That's awesome. I wish we had a monkey on staff.

Tug McTighe (15:58)
Well,

I wish we did too. I wish we had a whole room of them in the back smoking cigarettes and trying to type out the great American novel. OK, so let's talk about casting.

It's a good one. John Cusack, of course, as puppeteer and sad sack Craig Schwartz.

Matt (16:14)
Yeah, you and I grew up with John Cusack. I think the first thing I saw him in was...

Tug McTighe (16:16)
He's just a little bit older than me.

year or two older than me, so only a couple years older than you.

Matt (16:20)
Yeah, 16 candles, I think was the first time I saw him. And then it was off to the races for him.

Tug McTighe (16:25)
He had great run

in the 80s and early 90s for sure.

Matt (16:28)
yeah, in all kinds of different movies too, but mostly comedies. So I always felt like he could have been my older brother, like a little nerdy, but kind of cool, always earnest, lead with your heart kind of guy. And by the late nineties, he was in his early thirties and had worked a ton.

Yeah, so by this point, He'd done lots of teen stuff and he'd done dark comedies like Gross Point Blank and action stuff like Con Air with Malkovich, by the way. So he was probably thinking maybe I should do some serious work, something I could win.

Tug McTighe (16:53)
Yeah,

they said he Reached out to his agent and said I need you to find me something weird Well They found it Yeah All right, Cameron Diaz as Lottie Schwartz Craig's wife in one of her early roles, right? Her debut was in the mask, which was only a couple years ahead of this

Matt (16:58)
Right, the weirder the better, and he delivered.

Yeah, her makeup artists describe styling her in the role as a challenge to make her look homely.

Tug McTighe (17:15)
Yeah, you've got to, your, your task is to make Cameron Diaz at that moment, one of the most beautiful hot women on the planet look ugly. Wow. Well done.

Matt (17:23)
And she did,

and with the, I mean, she did too as much as you can make Cameron Diaz look bad at that point. And with the notable exception of Catherine Keener, who I thought looked amazing. Yeah, she was on point. But everybody else in this movie looked terrible.

Tug McTighe (17:28)
Yeah. Yeah.

in every scene.

Craig looks terrible.

Matt (17:41)
Yeah, and my recollections of adaptation with Nick Cage is that he looked awful in that. yeah, maybe that's a Spike Jonze stylistic flourish making his characters all look like disheveled hobos. But he does.

Tug McTighe (17:45)
looks terrible. Everybody looks beat up. Yeah.

Right

ready to jump a train for for New Mexico ⁓ Catherine Keener is maxine Lund. She's really good in this in a really angry kind of annoying way But yeah, she was the the love interest in the 40 year old version Okay, and she's she's she's been in she's had a pretty good run she was in an episode of Seinfeld Hey There's more Seinfeld to come

Matt (17:59)
Right. You're sleeping at Dunster or whatever.

Yeah, that was first time I saw her.

yeah, it's gonna be great. Yeah, I loved her for the first half of the movie until I didn't love her anymore.

Tug McTighe (18:22)
Yeah, of course John Malkovich is Malkovich and Ned Bellamy is Derek Mantini Orson Bean as Dr. Lester a very famous that guy

Matt (18:32)
Yeah, he was married to the mom from the wonder years. was his third wife and she was 21 years younger than him. He got hit by a car in LA, crossing the street, I think when he was 92.

Tug McTighe (18:42)
Yeah,

Kay Place is florist.

Matt (18:44)
I hated that character so much.

Tug McTighe (18:46)
She's the one guys who can't, I can't understand a word you're saying. I don't know what you're saying. She was Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman in the seventies. Charlie Sheen shows up as himself. Carlos Jackott as Larry the agent.

Matt (18:50)
I hated that group. Yes, she was.

yeah, he could be that guy.

Tug McTighe (19:02)
We got a we got a triple fight for that guy this this episode But he was in Firefly For me most notably he played a minor character in an episode of Seinfeld From season 7 the pool guy. He was Ramon He was an overly enthusiastic pool cleaner at Jerry's gym who glommed on to Jerry and Jerry couldn't get rid of him So he was Ramon the pool guy in an episode

properly titled The Pool Guy.

We've got Burn Piven, who played Captain James Merton in the orientation video, who's Jeremy Piven's real dad.

Matt (19:36)
That's right. And he started with John Cusack in gross point blank. I think everything, everything in that town.

Tug McTighe (19:38)
And they're kind of, yeah, they're simpatico, those two, yep. ⁓

This blew me out of the water. One scene in the elevator, very first time Craig's in it. Who helps him open the door? Octavia Spencer.

Matt (19:49)
That's amazing. And I am inspiring her breakthrough in the help came in 2011 when she was 41 years old. That was her breakthrough. She did Fruitvale Station, Hidden Figures, The Shape of Water after that, three Academy Award nominations. It's never too late people don't give up on your dreams.

Tug McTighe (19:56)
Unbelievable.

No, it's not

my god. we've got a couple more. noticed, fellow named Willie Garson as man in restaurant that talks to Malkovich. He was Stanford Carrie's gay friend and sex in the city.

Richard Fancy as news show commentator, also known as Mr. Lipman, Elaine's old boss at the publishing house appearing in 10 episodes of Seinfeld. So this was a Seinfeld-tastic side character event.

Matt (20:28)
That's right,

The episode of Seinfeld with Mr. Lippman also starred Catherine Keener as the woman that paints the portrait of Kramer.

Tug McTighe (20:36)
Full circle. It's all now you think about it because this was like after Seinfeld had hit its peak and it I think went off the year 98. This is all these people were well known from Seinfeld because it was the biggest show in the world. Quick quickly here. Spike Jones director makes a cameo as Derek Mantini's assistant. Mantini is building the story as the greatest puppeteer in the history of the world. that around Craig is just hates him. So jealous.

Matt (20:36)
great.

That was right at the beginning. It was really funny. He's so like Crystal, you know, the artist who makes these giant things on bridges. He's doing Emily, Emily Dickinson.

Tug McTighe (20:58)
⁓

Yeah. That's tough. Yeah.

reading a giant like a 80 foot tall Emily Dickinson reading an Emily Dickinson poem. Yeah. It's gonna be funny. Yeah. So into the plot, Craig Schwartz is an unemployed puppeteer in New York City in a forlorn marriage with his pet obsessed wife Lottie. They've got like every kind of possible animal living around the house, from dogs and cats to chimpanzees to goats in an apartment in New York. He

Matt (21:12)
Okay, so that was funny. mean, that set it up and I was like, this is gonna be good.

Yeah, that was weird.

Tug McTighe (21:31)
He's trying to be a puppeteer. She's like, maybe it's time to get a job. So he finds work as a file clerk for the eccentric Dr. Lester, Orson Bean in the Merton-Flemmer building on a floor between the seventh and the eighth. So it's seventh and a half and the ceiling is like five feet. So everybody's ducking all day like this. and it's just super weird. And you, you, he gets the job from, Dr. Lester.

Because Dr. Lester says, file these. And he gives a job for filing. That's the end. Yeah. And because he's a puppeteer, he's like,

Matt (21:59)
You have to quick fingers.

Tug McTighe (22:03)
And he was like, wow. And then he goes, put these in alphabetical order. And he goes really fast. So now I thought that I actually thought that part was pretty funny. That was an interesting little. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt (22:10)
It was setting it up like,

hey, this is going somewhere. I'm going to enjoy this.

Tug McTighe (22:15)
Yeah, so the seven and a half floor, says, so what's deal with the floor? goes, oh, you'll don't worry about that. You'll learn the history in the orientation film. So there's an orientation film that Craig has to watch, and we'll play a bit of that orientation film here.

So, okay, man, I've got a couple of notes about this first scene. So this is 99. He finds the job in the one ads of the newspaper. Was it 99 or 79? And this is where it's hard for us. Cause we went from analog. This generation went from our generation went from analog to digital. like today, no, there's no such thing as a one app, but

Matt (22:39)
Yeah.

Right.

Tug McTighe (22:54)
Even in 99, you went to the back of the classified section and people said needing of this, needing of that. call Klondike 5-7-3-7-1, right? I just found that like, whoa, the fucking wallhats.

Matt (22:59)
Yeah, I think so.

Yeah,

we were still using them. I think I assume people were, but it was a different time.

Tug McTighe (23:12)
There was a 10 or 15 year period where everything overlapped, where the old was still here. The new was arising and it hadn't, it hadn't, you know, the new hadn't cut the throat of the old jet. So they were.

Matt (23:22)
Oh yeah, my dad had

a sales job in the early 90s and you had young guys that were sending emails out and he was sending letters by hand and he had a file cabinet, a Rolodex. So yeah, you did have new tech and old tech still kind of living together.

Tug McTighe (23:31)
Literally letters. Yeah.

So there's a lot to unpack just here in the first few minutes of this movie. Dr. Lester is a weirdo. Flores is a weirdo. Maxine's a loof. We don't know she's a weirdo. Craig's a weirdo. Alati's a weirdo. Everybody has strange mannerisms. Everybody looks bad. Everybody has odd ways of talking to each other. Everybody's sort of a caricature a little bit of themselves. And then it gets weird. So it's just the whole thing's weird.

Matt (24:03)
Yeah, really early on, yeah, I had some trouble understanding people's motivations or believing, or rather the believability of what they said they were feeling or thinking. ⁓

Tug McTighe (24:14)
For sure.

And I think, I think it's just, everybody's weird in, their, in their bubble. And it's not right at least right now. Nothing's connecting for me.

Matt (24:24)
Yeah,

so like when he has his thing for Maxine, he sees Maxine and is smitten instantly, like instantly and jumps right on it.

Tug McTighe (24:29)
Yeah, yeah,

yeah, yeah, she's really chewing up the scenery in these first, these first few scenes

Matt (24:37)
Yeah, but I mean, not spoiler alert. The whole our whole show is spoiler alerts, but I eventually hated pretty much everybody in this movie. Like I liked Maxine initially, but it didn't last long. It's hard to have a movie where you don't root for anybody. You kind of felt for Lottie, I think. ⁓

Tug McTighe (24:46)
100%.

You kinda

do, but you don't know you're supposed to. You think Craig is your proxy.

Matt (25:00)
Yeah, I was actively rooting against Craig because he was so terrible. ⁓ Yeah, Kaufman has seemed to have a real knack of writing characters who are out and out losers. There's a clip that will play of Craig hitting on Maxine so you can get a sense of what a sad sack and loser he is.

Tug McTighe (25:03)
It doesn't take long. Yeah.

You go.

Matt (25:16)
So Craig is doing his job filing and accidentally drops a card behind the file.

Tug McTighe (25:22)
Yeah, he dropped he dropped some

files behind the cabinet. He's like, God darn it, moves the cabinet to get them.

Matt (25:27)
Yeah, and then he finds he sees this piece of drywall that's in the shape of a square that obviously somebody had put there that could be removed. So he pulls it out and there's a little door with a doorknob. So of course he's going to open it. Now this is interesting. This is getting kind of what we knew was going to happen, but he opens it and it's this tunnel.

Tug McTighe (25:44)
Yeah, it's like mud.

Matt (25:45)
Yeah, like a giant earthworm crawled through it and made this tunnel. and there's there is mud. You know, he reaches down and there's a piece of wood that he grabs like part of a door frame and he takes that in with him. And suddenly this giant vacuum of wind comes. And he is a white light and suddenly he's looking out through someone else's eyes and we learn pretty quickly that he's looking through the eyes of.

Tug McTighe (25:47)
Yeah. Yeah.

Sucks him down, yeah.

And we see

whenever someone's POV is in Malkovich's brain, we see this little frame kind of like a scuba mask shape. And he's looking out and then we see Malkovich putting his tie on or whatever. Yep. Yep. Yep. For sure. And he's like, Whoa, what is this? then cut to the Jersey turnpike and Craig falls out of the sky.

Matt (26:21)
I thought that was effective to show that point of view. ⁓

Boom.

Just out of nowhere, see him come from nowhere and just hit the ground. And then he goes back and tells Maxine all about it. Let's talk about this. He goes to Maxine who actively dislikes him. ⁓

Tug McTighe (26:33)
land on the shoulder.

No, yeah,

it's like no chance, Junior. Right.

Matt (26:45)
Yeah,

like the minute he met her, she's like, you're not getting in my pants. And he's like, whoa, wait, I wasn't even trying to, he was just terrible. So, but he tells her about it and she buys into immediately, right? Which is crazy. You wouldn't believe somebody if they told you that you'd think they were insane, especially if it's somebody you don't know. ⁓

Tug McTighe (26:49)
not even close. First thing she said. Right.

She believes him.

Yeah, he says,

where you go through this door and you're in Malkovich's brain for 15 minutes and then you get shout out on the side of the New Jersey Turnpike. She's like, I hate you. I think you're a loser, but let's go into business together.

Matt (27:15)
Right. And I'm not a huge scientific method guy, but he doesn't know that you go into Malkovich's brain every time. And he doesn't know that you end up in the Jersey Turnpike every time. It's just what happened to him.

Tug McTighe (27:24)
No, no, this is one the,

yeah. And by the way, and by the way, it's only occurring to me now. I don't believe Maxine ever goes through Malkovich's tunnel. Yeah. Yeah. So they start JM enterprises and start selling it to people for 200 bucks a shot. ⁓ yeah. So this is a, again, a metaphysical can of worms that we're opening. Right. So.

Matt (27:31)
I don't think she does either. She just buys it. So that was hard to believe.

It seems like a good deal.

Tug McTighe (27:47)
Craig at this moment is an empathetic kid. We have empathy for him. He's in a tough marriage. He has a job he doesn't want to do. He wants to do this artful thing. And he's philosophical. He's like, do you understand? We're in someone, but we're not them. we're like what's like we're them. So you're starting to see, it's a puppet metaphor here. She's crass.

He's weak and soft, she's bold and powerful. again, they're turning 11 on its ear and again, you're not sure, nobody is who you thought they were initially.

Matt (28:17)
But you see the potential here. You say, okay, this is going to be a story about the way these people compliment each other or make each other better or worse.

Tug McTighe (28:26)
What are they gonna learn are they gonna change and learn a lesson like we're really crass and we're taking over this person's body and we're Benefiting from it, but we're gonna learn a lot. Well, yeah, so you're wondering again a spoiler alert. None of it gets paid off

Matt (28:40)
⁓ God, hate floors. I do want to talk about those characters because you talk about things not getting paid off. He mentioned things not getting paid off. No, Kaufman sets up this whole deal where florist who's the receptionist and Doctor Lester who's her employer and has a thing for her, but she says she has.

Tug McTighe (28:41)
But you love Flora, so let's talk about her for a sec.

of Dr. Lester for us.

None of it gets paid off.

Matt (29:01)
that everybody has a speech impediment. She can't understand what they're saying, but of course they're saying perfectly normal things. It's the sort of thing that you could tell Kaufman thought it was really fun.

Tug McTighe (29:03)
She can't understand what they're saying.

He thought it was funny because it keeps coming back with the whole movie. Yeah.

Matt (29:13)
But it's not funny. It's never

funny. It's it's a bit he's doing. You know, Stephen King is kind of a pivot to Stephen King here. But one of his writing. Tenets is that you have to be able to kill your precious characters. And Charlie Coffin can't even do that in the story like this isn't a funny enough bit. This should have gone away in the rewrite. No, and it's it's it's it screws up the tone.

Tug McTighe (29:26)
kill your, yeah.

Yeah, if you

Yeah, because it's not any good. make any sense. And it doesn't contribute anything.

Matt (29:38)
It doesn't contribute anything. It's just something that he thinks is clever. And Craig also, you know, it could have been funnier if Craig was a better straight man. But of course Craig explains to us, no, you don't have a speech impediment at all. Dr. Lesher is like, thank you for saying, flatter. He'll get you everywhere. ⁓

Tug McTighe (29:53)
You're so nice. Yeah.

So Craig goes home and tells Lottie about this. he's like, I was the most incredible thing that's ever happened to me. And she goes, well, I got to do it. So she goes and does it and she gets in Malcovich and you hear her saying, and

He's, he's arranging himself down in the groinal area region. And she's like, that's interesting. And so she's like, God, she starts becoming fascinated about being a man.

Matt (30:17)
Right, and I thought, this is kind of prescient, right? Kaufman's out of his time here because there's the precursor of trans and that's, sure, he already saw this coming. ⁓ But it.

Tug McTighe (30:23)
in all the way to 99 back in 99. Okay. We're talking about identity,

right? Sexual identity and transgender issues, et cetera, et cetera.

Matt (30:33)
And it's going to pay off, right? We're going to have something to think about or talk about or discuss or feel something about. But it doesn't. It doesn't go anywhere.

Tug McTighe (30:41)
Allow me to make a counter argument. False. ⁓ But yeah, Lottie comes out, she gets spat out. And she's like, I was inside John fucking Malkovich. Right? And she pontificates about the portal being vaginal, even though Malkovich has a penis. Lottie is, they go to dinner at Dr. Lester's and she's been through this. She goes through the portal when they're on their way to Dr. Lester's.

Matt (30:44)
the

Tug McTighe (31:05)
And then she goes to says, need to use the restroom. And she goes in this room and there's all these John Malkovich pictures and a timeline on the wall. she's like, weird coincidence, but yeah, yeah, something's okay. There's a connection. Um, so she, she was like, I want to go back. He's like, no, let's go home, babe. And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Matt (31:13)
Right, a gallery of Melkowitz.

Okay, so there's a clue, so we kind of, that's good.

Tug McTighe (31:31)
And then she shows up at Craig's work the next day when he's talking with Maxine about monetizing this. And she says, I think I'm a transsexual. I think I want to be a man. And he's like, no, you don't. And she goes, she goes, he goes, you're just tired. Right. The classic, goes, don't stand in the way of my actualization as a man. So again, your point, there's a lot of ideas being thrown out into the ring that just you're hoping that will go somewhere.

Sadly, they don't so now I'm starting to get a little frustrated because maxine just

Calls, Malkovich?

Matt (32:02)
Has his number somehow.

Tug McTighe (32:04)
She calls the person who who the fuck gay who did she call what what kind of dark underworld is she living in? We're seeing just all her friend and go give me John Malkovich's number but she does and At this point Maxine goes to see Malkovich Lottie gets inside Malkovich again

Matt (32:11)
I don't know.

Tug McTighe (32:21)
Maxine can tell that someone is inside Malkovich She she's smitten with the person inside Malkovich who is Lottie But Maxine only reciprocates the affection when Lottie is inside Malkovich Now Maxine manipulates Malkovich into having sex with her while Lottie is inside his mind And it's all a big mess

Matt (32:42)
Yeah, I had

some issues with this too. so this again started to get potentially interesting because Lottie and Maxine and Craig are all together at Craig and Lottie's house, right? They're sitting on the couch. That's when Maxine gives a speech about there's two kinds of people in the world, the kind that go for it, the kind that don't. And at that moment, Lottie and Craig both try to kiss her and she puts them away and she's like gently rebuffs Lottie and then she

Tug McTighe (32:53)
They invite her over.

Attacker. Yeah

Matt (33:07)
slaps Craig across the face. It's like, am not interested in you at all.

Tug McTighe (33:08)
She's Krabs Kregens never and he says to Ladi

only when you're inside Malkovich

Matt (33:14)
Yeah, but she hadn't been inside Malkovich yet.

Tug McTighe (33:16)
Body head!

Yeah, lot, no, Lottie, Lottie, Lottie was inside Malkovich. Now the timing doesn't seem to work out in my mind, but Lottie was inside Malkovich when they were having sex. Cause remember Maxine was really going for it at that point.

Matt (33:18)
That makes a little more sense.

Yeah, the timing doesn't work.

Okay. So yeah.

So, and was calling Malkovich Lottie because she was talking to Lottie cause she knew Lottie was in there. So she says, Hey, I'm only into you when you're inside a man. ⁓ but that goes away. And she also says never with you, Craig, you're gross, but that goes away.

Tug McTighe (33:33)
That is correct. Right.

when you're in touch. That's exactly right.

Right,

So now Craig has been rejected by both of these women because Lottie says I'm in love with Maxine. Maxine doesn't like either one of them only when Malkovich is in.

yeah, this is started to remind me now that we're talking about it of Jean Paul Chartres, No Exit, where we have three characters in Hell who all love the person that doesn't love them in the threesome and they can never be together. And that's what's built here. Craig, now that he's been forsaken by both these women,

Matt (34:09)
That was hell as other people,

Tug McTighe (34:15)
pulls a gun on Lottie, locks her in the monkey cage and forces her to set up another twist with Maxine. So now he's going to go get in Malkovich when Maxine's with Malkovich and she's thinks that Lottie is inside Malkovich.

Matt (34:28)
Yeah, so that took a really dark turn. And I thought, okay, now this is setting up questions of consent and honesty and deceit. And is this, this, you know, rape? Because, and also we've established that Maxine can tell when it's Lottie inside, right? Nope, apparently not. Cause it was Craig and she had no idea. And worse than that,

Tug McTighe (34:48)
Correct, correct.

Matt (34:50)
It really didn't seem to bother her that much. hey, it's me, Craig. She's like, awesome.

Tug McTighe (34:52)
NO!

Maxine likes the controlling thing where someone else is inside. Malkovich. That's what she likes, which is super weird and ugly. so I'm going to agree with you here. Again, this story starts asking a lot of questions. It doesn't try to answer any of them. And I'll, I'll say this later on to I'm typically not the

Matt (35:01)
than it could be anybody in there.

Tug McTighe (35:14)
Boy, this movie doesn't work with today's mores and narrative standards. But boy, this doesn't work with today's mores and narrative standards. I'm never the police there, but I couldn't, I can usually compartmentalize it easily. But it was, it's weird here because a lot is going on in a little bit of time.

Matt (35:21)
It sure doesn't.

I do think based on what we do in the industry we're in and just the people we are, it's, we can say, hey, we're not the police of this, but we're aware of it. We're conscious of, and we're people that are conscientious about how other people feel and what things mean to people, even if it's not us. So yeah, a lot of this just doesn't fit. I will say I felt a little bad. He locked, when he locked Lottie in the cage and laughed.

Tug McTighe (35:40)
You're out.

That's correct.

Matt (35:54)
and then came back and was apologetic and was like, I shouldn't have done that. And the next thing you know, he's locking her in the cage again. That was pretty funny. He got her to call Maxine to set it up and then he took off again.

Tug McTighe (35:59)
Yeah, right. Just yeah, just he wanted to come back seen so

So I will say this for this film. There are lot of ideas. I saw this in 99 when it came out and there are a lot of ideas that I don't remember from that viewing. Again, I'm not sure these ideas are landing, but maybe it's because the pacing is so, so fast. mean, Matt, I looked at my watch 55 minutes of gone by. It's only, it's only an hour 52. So.

I mean, it's like rapid fire, weird idea, weird idea, weird idea through the tunnel in the turnpike. The, the, the, the three way love triangle locked in a cage. He's in him. She's in him. Lottie's in him. So it's rock them sock them, make no mistake. and, and, and this is that. This is that moment at about 55 minutes or an hour where Maxine is having sex with. Malkovich.

And she's really going at it because she thinks it's Lottie But then it's Craig and Maxine doesn't give a shit So that's like that the midpoint right which is the pivotal irreversible turning point of a movie where there's a false winner of feels like a false a false win where Craig got Maxine, I mean through Malkovich she likes it

Now we're moving on. That was the last gasp of who Craig was before. And now it's you, Craig.

Matt (37:16)
Yeah.

Yeah. And he discovers too when he's inside Malkovich said his puppeteering skills let him control Malkovich's body. Yeah.

Tug McTighe (37:24)
Yeah, we're Lottie couldn't and he's,

you know, Malco, which keeps doing this like, right. Don't I, who I didn't say that you shut up. You say it. Right. So it's really creepy and weird.

Matt (37:33)
Yeah, he kind of sublimates his consciousness. I think Lottie didn't or couldn't or didn't because she probably didn't want to do that, but she's not horrible like Craig.

Tug McTighe (37:41)
And I

think this was really, really important at this midpoint. So Malkovich can feel this and he hates it when Craig's controlling him and Craig turns really, really dark here. He says, it's just a matter of practice.

Malkovich is nothing more than another puppet hanging next to my work table. That is terrifying.

Matt (38:04)
yeah, this movie is so close to being a horror film. ⁓

Tug McTighe (38:06)
And Maxine's

like, fuck yeah, bro. I'm in. Yeah.

Matt (38:08)
Right, she's on board.

I don't know if you saw the movie Talk to Me, was a 824 movie from three years ago where people are inviting ghosts to inhabit their bodies and in the end the person gets their body taken over and now they are a ghost trying to inhabit other people's bodies. There was a Netflix comedy horror film called What's Inside where there's a machine that causes people to switch bodies. Freaky Friday franchise was rehashed by Blumhouse in 2020.

Tug McTighe (38:32)
So similar,

Matt (38:33)
It's so it's.

Tug McTighe (38:34)
you're a soul and a being and a persona inside another vessel.

Matt (38:40)
Yeah, the idea has been kicked around a couple of times in a couple of different ways. And I think there's potential there to raise existential questions like we talked about, or to be really terrifying. But then it just decides to go for laughs and it doesn't get there either. It doesn't do any of those things.

Tug McTighe (38:52)
Yeah, it's not that funny.

Matt (38:54)
So meanwhile, the real Malkovich...

Tug McTighe (38:56)
Meanwhile, back at Wayne Manor.

Matt (38:58)
The real John Malkovich, Craig ends up getting booted out like he always does. Malkovich confides in his friend Charlie Sheen, which was kind of a funny cameo. Yeah, you might ask, are they friends in real life? The answer is no. Yeah, and I feel like our younger listeners should know there was a time when Charlie Sheen wasn't outwardly insane and he was in successful movies and appeared to be, yeah, he appeared to be a normal person.

Tug McTighe (39:05)
Yeah, Charlie Sheen, before he was crazy.

Frankly, he's one of the bigger stars in Hollywood for a long time.

Matt (39:20)
Malkovich follows, Maxine to the Merton-Flemmer building where there's this long line of people.

Tug McTighe (39:27)
Giant line of people from their WAN ad, yeah.

Matt (39:29)
He's like, excuse me, can you tell me what kind of business goes on here? And the guy says, yeah, you pay 200 bucks, you get to be John Malkovich for 15 minutes.

Tug McTighe (39:36)
He's got sunglasses and a hat on.

Matt (39:38)
Yeah, and there's this huge line. So they're charging him to use the portal and he breaks to the front and everybody's like, hey, no cuts. And they knock him over and realize it's Sean Malkovich.

Tug McTighe (39:47)
And then Craig, he confronts Craig and Maxine. He's like, Jesus, what's going on? And then he says, well, you got to send me through. And I'm like, woof, what happens when a man goes into his own portal? That can't be good. And we see, we see that it isn't good. Is it Matt? Is it Matt?

Matt (39:57)
Yeah, I think.

No,

it was pretty weird. But I think that was maybe even shown in the trailer. Like if you remember the trailer from

Tug McTighe (40:05)
This is, this is, this

was a famous scene in those, right? Where you guys, if you've seen it and you'll remember it, if you haven't, it's just, he goes through his own portal. He comes out in a restaurant and everybody is women, men, babies, tall people, the, the lounge singer, the waiters, the waitresses, they're all. It's all Malcolm, which has had on other bodies and all they're looking at each other saying is Malcolm, which Malcolm, which Malcolm, which Malcolm, which

and then they cut to the menu and it just says, Malkovich, Malkovich, Malkovich, Malkovich. It's probably a three minute scene and it's super off putting and really weird ⁓ and everybody.

Matt (40:36)
Yeah.

It was, there's a lounge singer

in an evening dress and she's lounging on a, it's a woman body singing Malkovich with his head.

Tug McTighe (40:44)
Malchowic. Yeah.

And then I remember when it came out, I was talking about the special effects. Like, wow. And I'm like, we fucking had photorealistic dinosaurs in 93. Of course they could put Nugget Witch's head on a body. But yeah, this is a weird, yeah. it's really important because Craig says you can't go in your own portal.

Matt (40:56)
Yeah, this is not so big.

Tug McTighe (41:07)
And Maxine's like, fuck it, let him go.

So she's really digging evil holes now. Yeah.

Matt (41:12)
Yes, absolutely. And

then after he gets ejected, Malkovich says Craig needs to close the portal and Craig says, no, this is my livelihood.

Tug McTighe (41:20)
Right. he, and Malcovich is a great line. He says, I have been to the dark side, have seen a world that no man should see. That portal is mine and it must be sealed forever for the love of God. And he goes, no, I got to make money. And he goes, it's my head Schwartz. It's my head. And then somebody throws something out of the car and hits him in the head. Shut up Malcovich. Clank. Yeah. So Lottie, we got cut back to Lottie.

Matt (41:39)
He's like, screw you, Mount Michi, it's another can.

Tug McTighe (41:46)
And she is freed by the chimpanzee, Elijah. he still has her caged by the way. He just wants everyone to be his puppet. so Elijah frees her. Lottie has been telling Craig that Elijah needs psychotherapy because of all his childhood trauma, the chimpanzee. And then we cut into Elijah's head. He sees the Lottie's trying to break the rope that's tied her hands. And he remembers his mom and dad were.

Grabbed by poachers in Africa and they were saying to him in subtitle Elijah untie us they're gonna take us and he he couldn't untie them in time and he got caught so Old Elijah Overcomes his trauma and he any freeze He frees Lottie so I like it when the animal wins Matt

Matt (42:27)
I do, that was kind of silly though, you gotta admit. There was another tone break.

Tug McTighe (42:29)
very silly. It's another

tangent for no reason. So Lottie now warns Maxine that Craig is inhabiting Malkovich, but Maxine, as we said, is really attracted to his hit to not Craig, but Craig's ability to control Malkovich.

Matt (42:44)
which he can do all the time now. He can live there indefinitely. Yeah.

Tug McTighe (42:45)
He said, I'm learning how to stay inside of him. ⁓

And she even says, almost says out loud, he controls Malkovich and I control him. That's what she's attracted to. And this is when she's like, okay, she's full on evil.

Matt (42:54)
Right. Well, she's terrible.

Tug McTighe (42:59)
And this is a bit of great performance by Malkovich.

John Malkovich, actor is now playing John Malkovich with Craig inside of him and he kind of mimics the John Cusack performance, which I thought was really interesting. ⁓

Matt (43:11)
Yeah,

and I thought the scene where he recreates the puppet performance that Craig did at the very beginning with Marionettes, but he does it himself with this body that he is the puppet master of was pretty cool. And Maxine was astounded by his puppetry abilities.

Tug McTighe (43:17)
Correct. Right. Right.

Yeah, she loved it.

So we, we do a time jump. Craig discovers he, like you said, can occupy Malkovich indefinitely over the next eight months. He decides he's going to make Malkovich into a world-class puppeteer. No more acting on puppetry only, Mary's Maxine. And then she becomes pregnant.

Matt (43:43)
So that was kind of, there was potential there to be something. There was like a hint of amusement anyway. So Lottie is distraught, runs out in the rain, wanders to Dr. Lester's house.

Tug McTighe (43:57)
Something terrible has happened, the portal.

Matt (43:58)
Right. I am obsessed with John Malkovich. Do you know anything about being obsessed with John Malkovich? And he finally said.

Tug McTighe (44:04)
Why would you ask me that question? Cause when I was here,

I found a room where you have a, you're obsessed, obsessed with John Malkovich room.

Matt (44:09)
Right, so he reveals that he's in fact Captain Merton, who having discovered the, and hang on, I'm excited, a lot of questions. Having discovered the portal to a vessel body in late 1800s, erected the Merton-Flemmer building to conceal it. It's on the seventh floor. Was it floating in the air? How did he find a portal that was seven floors up?

Tug McTighe (44:18)
Okay.

No, the portal. don't know. Yeah, right. Okay. Yeah.

Matt (44:35)
All right, so it's the kind of thing that you can't ignore because they kind of try to create reasons for it, but the reasons are here. Okay, so he has obtained immortality and I didn't even try to figure out the numbers on this when he did it, how many bodies he's been through, how long he's been doing it, but he's obtained immortality by moving from one body to the next, which becomes ripe on the host's 44th birthday. ⁓

Tug McTighe (44:42)
And they didn't get there, yeah.

Yep, keep going.

Matt (45:02)
Allowing him to take possession if he's late, he would become trapped in a newborn body. How does he know this tug? You do because he shows it to us. It's in a book. That has a picture of a slide with a person going into a body and then another page with a slide where a person's going into a baby's head and there's a jail cell who wrote that book. I don't know.

Tug McTighe (45:08)
I don't know.

Yes, it's in a book that he's got.

And it's in a baby's head. ⁓

Don't know.

Right.

Matt (45:28)
Who made that illustration? We have no idea. But presumably when the host turns 44, it say you're however, how old do you think Dr. Lester was? Maybe 70?

Tug McTighe (45:38)
He said he was 105 years old at beginning.

Matt (45:40)
Well, yeah, but I mean, outwardly, this body was probably 70 or so. When you're sliding in, you're not reliving your 20s or your teens or your 30s. You're basically living from 44 to however old you are before you do it again, which might actually be not terrible. No. So Lottie warns them that Craig has taken control of Malkovich. So now Lester knows.

Tug McTighe (45:52)
Right, right, right. Being not too bad.

Right.

Correct. so Craig has discovered, right. That as we said, that he can keep himself inside Malcovich indefinitely and can control him and push Malcovich's consciousness to the back, which is horrifying.

And he decides he's going to make Malkovich a world-class puppeteer, no more acting. He marries Maxine. He gets her pregnant and Malkovich is now no longer an actor. He's going to be this world-class puppeteer. So there's, yeah, there's a lot that happens in this, in this scene that I really like. Another, I want to remind you that when Craig goes to see his agent, it's Carlos Jackott, who was

Ramon the pool guy and then now Craig Malkovich is watching it. A new story about how Malkovich has become this world class puppeteer and Richard fancy Mr. Lippman is in that scene.

Matt (46:46)
I saw that and immediately thought of you, because I thought, I know that guy was in Seinfeld and I know Tug is going to make a comment about it.

Tug McTighe (46:52)
I'm

so happy you knew that about me because I am an open book when it comes to Seinfeld.

Matt (46:56)
You are.

I saw that that was interesting, too, because then they go from the format the entire movie's been, which is kind of a normal film for third person you're watching to now it's a kind of documentary.

Tug McTighe (47:09)
Yeah, we're looking at I don't know, five or six minutes of this news story. Yeah.

Matt (47:11)
cuts of news.

Yeah, again, kind of just a tone break, but that's fine.

Tug McTighe (47:15)
All right, well,

we're into the third act now. ⁓ Yep, we got a chicken clock because we got to get before midnight on the 44th birthday.

Matt (47:19)
All right, and we got a ticking clock too.

Right. So you've got Craig inside Malkovich. You've got Malkovich about to turn 44. You've got Dr. Lester who needs to get into Malkovich's body before midnight.

Tug McTighe (47:35)
He's also invited some of his friends, some of his pals.

Matt (47:38)
I don't know what does that mean? Are they just going to be in his head the whole time? And he invited Lottie too.

Tug McTighe (47:39)
I don't know.

Yep. And

it's important to know that Maxine is drawing away from Craig now since she's become pregnant. She's really pining for Lottie.

Matt (47:50)
Yes.

Tug McTighe (47:51)
So the lesser calls to demand that Craig leave Malkovich threatening to kill Maxine, but Craig hangs up in desperation Lottie decide she's gonna shoot Maxine she comes over and says if I can't have you no one will and she's chasing chasing Maxine They go into she does go into the portal finally Maxine but not a gun her own

Matt (48:08)
Yeah, she does. To escape.

Tug McTighe (48:10)
They both go into the portal at the same time. ⁓

Matt (48:11)
Works your fourth pin, yeah.

Tug McTighe (48:13)
and, they per Lottie pursues pursues Maxine through Malkovich is subconscious, which I sorta liked. ⁓ yeah.

Matt (48:20)
I did too actually, and it was kind

of funny because you saw memories or fears of guilt.

Tug McTighe (48:24)
Yeah, and it's just subconsciously.

He's peeing his pants. He's a bad boy. You're not, you know all this Yeah, all of his deep dark secrets

Matt (48:29)
He's like smelling someone's underpants. He's just doing all sorts of, that was pretty funny.

Tug McTighe (48:34)
because they're not Craig, they both get ejected onto the turnpike into the rain, which is symbolic of a baptism, bringing both Maxine and Lottie into a new world. So Maxine, they're standing there sort of reconciling and Maxine says, I kept this unborn child because it was conceived while you were in Malkovich. Meaning that in some way it's Lottie's child too.

And this and here's when the women cement their love for each other How'd you feel about this?

Matt (48:58)
as you say it, it's better. I remember there was a scene where she says, that's your baby. If she meant in a metaphorical sense, then okay. ⁓ right. And meanwhile, Craig came out too, right?

Tug McTighe (49:04)
And you're like, huh? Right. You're more of a metaphor. Right. ⁓

Craig got jacked out too, that's right, because Craig decided he was going to leave to save Maxine. And she's like, go fuck yourself. and they got in a cab and drove away.

Matt (49:18)
He said he's not he's not with us

Tug McTighe (49:20)
Remember, Lottie in the very first couple of scenes said, well, I think we should try for a baby. So now Craig has lost both women and Lottie's having the baby with Maxine.

Matt (49:29)
And Lottie got what she wanted. So if there's somebody you would root for in this, it's her. ⁓ Yeah, there were just a lot of things. There was a scene at the very beginning, the first time Craig goes through where he talks about that piece of wood that he took in with him. And since when I came out, there's no piece of wood. Where'd the wood go? It comes out at the end. Does that mean something? I don't know. They don't tell it. They never mentioned it again.

Tug McTighe (49:35)
Lottie, 100%.

Yeah, and he couldn't be where did that word go? Then he has it in the end.

I go, why? I don't know. you

had another unanswered question. The question that is answered is, Craig, you fucked all this up because you're a douche. yep, they leave.

Matt (50:01)
yeah, he did. So they leave and he decides,

he's like, I'm gonna make it up to you. I'm gonna go back into Malkovich and get Lester out of there.

Tug McTighe (50:10)
Right. So Lester and all of his friends go get inside Malcovich because it's five to midnight. Craig goes into the portal and does not go into Malcovich. We don't know that yet, but I'm going to tell you that we have an epilogue. Seven years later, an older Malcovich now inhabited by multiple people. Horrifying. Tells bald as me, Charlie Sheen. Wow. Seven years really hurt Charlie Sheen.

Matt (50:29)
Yeah, I

had a come over though.

Tug McTighe (50:33)
he tells Charlie about Lesser and his friends plan to extend their lives via the portal, which now leads to the mind of Maxine's daughter, Emily. We also bring back the stupid florist and speech impediment gag for no reason. Craig having entered the portal too late to get into Malkovich, but too early to have any control over Emily is permanently trapped inside Lottie and Maxine's daughter and their member in the illustration. It was in a jail.

Matt (50:46)
He just loved that.

Tug McTighe (50:58)
And he has to watch Lottie and Maxine live happily together.

Matt (51:02)
Yeah, I had to rewatch that because I didn't get the implications of that the first time. And Lester does say, you know, oh, you would be in the mind of an infant, but you'd be too weak. So you would just look through their eyes helpless to do anything through the rest of their life. So the movie ends with Craig pleading with little girl to look away from Maxine and Lottie because they're embracing or loving each other or whatever. And she won't do it. He has no control. And he's been already stuck in that little girl's head for seven years. And he's going to be there for the rest of her life.

Tug McTighe (51:12)
Correct.

Yes,

that's correct.

Matt (51:29)
And maybe

beyond, I don't know, maybe he'll be in the next Dr. Lester's next brain. So terrifying.

Tug McTighe (51:32)
at the next vessel, And I,

yeah, yeah, but not a horror film.

Matt (51:37)
Nope, cut to a girl swimming with some kind of bubbly music.

Tug McTighe (51:40)
Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So this was, I wanted to make a note that, know, when you, when we said at the jump that they were trying to make Cameron Diaz look homely, this scene in the end, she's got the curly hair, but it's pushed down. It's a little bit blonder. She's in a hat. She's gorgeous in this scene. Right. Um, so it's just, that's so funny, right? Put a pair of glasses on her and give her a ponytail and

Matt (52:00)
Yeah, they failed.

Tug McTighe (52:06)
We're supposed to believe she's a commonly wallflower. so again, I think, you know, Craig certainly got what he deserved. but Maxine is a bad person too. And she won. Sheerpoint lot is the only quote unquote good person. and I do want to speak speaking of good people. I want to talk about our sponsor, a little bear graphics, but I have to come clean, Matt. I don't want to be trapped inside my own brain for the rest of my life. I didn't write a second spot.

I will only say to you our wonderful listeners if you want some good shit marketing graphic design logos T-shirts hats the whole schmear. It's little bear doc graphics that lore You won't have to live inside his head forever just for a few weeks while you're working with him

Matt (52:45)
Yeah, I get inside my clients heads. Yeah. Not in a creepy way. All right, what do think, buddy?

Tug McTighe (52:47)
You always do, but not in like it's a jail.

Okay, so, yeah,

okay. So it's weird, obviously. It's interesting, obviously. It's well performed, well directed, well special affected. But like we've said over and over, think, Matt, it asks a lot of questions that just never get answered. A lot of ideas and comments and plot lines that are problematic today, that like I said, I can usually compartmentalize, but

Matt (53:08)
Bingo.

Tug McTighe (53:14)
Maybe there it's just a little maybe I think maybe you're onto something where this was, I'm not sure it was supposed to be a comedy, but it was supposed to be comedy leaning or at least a comedy and drama, dramedy part, like, you know, part comedy, part drama, just like life. But it's when you dissect it like this, it's more horror. Cause he gets trapped inside of her. They're in these people's brains. It's not cool. it's non-consensual. It's.

It's just a lot of weird shit. I remember really liking it in 99 But a lot of it frankly just doesn't stand up today for me

Matt (53:43)
I bet cause you'd never seen anything like it cause nobody had. ⁓ It's worth noting there's another victim here. We haven't even talked about it said seven year old kid. You heard 37 more years and she's going to have Dr. Lester taken over her body. So yeah, the more I thought about it, the less I liked it. There were a couple of moments where I chuckled a bit. I think that's what's frustrating is I thought there was potential. But it was just squandered.

Tug McTighe (53:46)
Yep. Yep.

That's correct. That's correct. That's correct. That's the whole plan.

Yeah. ⁓ how do

I? Yeah. It could have been handled differently. Some of these ideas.

Matt (54:11)
Yeah,

well, what or fleshed out or even continued or what?

Tug McTighe (54:15)
And again, like

a lot of people will say like about the naked gun. I don't like the naked gun movies. No, I do. People will say I don't like the naked gun movies because they just throw all these jokes out and not all of them land. And and that annoys me. OK, Tug says they throw all these jokes out and enough of them land that I'm happy and I laugh. Well, they threw a lot of ideas out.

A lot of them didn't land. Some of them landed, but we could have tightened it up in some.

Matt (54:39)
Yeah, we should

have. mean, there were things that were supposed to be funny that weren't. There were things that were funny that I think could have been explored further. There were things that could have been, that were profound or thought provoking. And when anytime they kind of hovered around getting to the meat of something, they just veered away in a different direction or played it off like it's for jokes.

Tug McTighe (54:56)
Yeah, well, you used to.

Yeah, you said something here. You said, what if there were a magic portal that will let you into John Malkovich's brain? That's kind of a fun idea. And anybody can have an idea, but that doesn't make it a story worth telling automatically.

Matt (55:12)
so CineHit or CineMiss?

Tug McTighe (55:14)
it's really bleak with both Craig and Maxine being terrible people you don't really want to hang out with. I'm glad I watched it again, but not enough heart, not enough connecting the dots. So it's a sin to miss.

Matt (55:24)
Yeah, rare cinemas for me too. I will say quickly, If you want a story that involves a villain who's achieved immortality by assuming the bodies of others and a plucky hero has to foil said villain, lest he become a host vessel himself, I recommend a book called Last Call by my favorite fantasy author, Tim Powers. It takes place in the present in the American West, so it's not a swords and sorcery type book.

establishes a kind of American mythos involving archetypes of the tarot reinvented in Las Vegas gambling culture. Really enjoyable, really good. If you really want to see a Charlie Kaufman film that's worth watching, I would say Eternal Sunshine's Foutless Mind is much better.

Tug McTighe (55:56)
I 100

% agree with you and I've never heard of this Tim Powers book so I'm gonna check it out.

Matt, good work. Audience, thank you again for listening to Cinemisses. If you like what we're doing here, please help us grow the show by subscribing, sharing some episodes or writing a review. It really does help. even better, tell someone you think might like it to give us a try and we want to hear from you. Follow and comment on socials. Please drop us a line at cinemisses at gmail.com with ideas to make the show better and recommendations for movies we may want to cover. Matt, what is our next cinemiss and what does our cinemiss think he knows?

Matt (56:04)
You too.

Well, if you want to do sinners, I'd be up for it, but I've seen it. Have you? What do you think? What do you think you know about it?

Tug McTighe (56:32)
I have not and I do want to do centers.

Well, I think I know that it was nominated for 263 Oscars. So I'd like to know we're just coming up on the Oscars here pretty soon. So I'd like to see what all the hubbub is about. I know it's a largely black cast. I know it was likely, I know it was directed by Ryan Coogler, perhaps written by him or at least co-written by him, a black Panther fame.

Matt (56:40)
true?

Tug McTighe (56:53)
Michael B. Jordan, whom I quite like, plays a set of twins, gangsters in some period piece, I don't know when, maybe the 20s. Haley Steinfeld, Mrs. Josh Allen of the Buffalo Bills is in it. that's the cast I know. know, hashtag vampires.

Matt (57:14)
Well, you're most of the way there. That's pretty good.

Tug McTighe (57:17)
But zero, but what happens with that setup? No clue.

Matt (57:20)
Well, there are definitely parts of it that I think anyone would agree are beautifully done. So I think you're going to have a great experience. But we'll talk about it next time.

Tug McTighe (57:29)
outstanding.

All right, so we'll do sinners next. And I thank everyone as always for joining us. I'm tug.

Matt (57:36)
I'm Matt, that's a wrap.