CINEMISSES! Sinners

In this episode, Matt and Tug explore Ryan Coogler's acclaimed 2025 horror thriller “Sinners” delving into its themes, production, and cultural significance. We discuss the film's unique blend of horror, history, and music, as well as insights into the director's journey and the film's impact. We go deep in detail, exploring themes of race, history, vampire mythology, and filmmaking techniques. And, if you are still wondering if these are Bela Lugosi vampires or “Lost Boys” vampires – will you tell us please? ‘Cause we still don’t know! Sharpen your fangs and let's get to it!

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Transcript

Tug McTighe (00:00)
You're listening to Cinemisses, a podcast about movies that one or the other of your two hosts just never got around to seeing. I'm Tug.

Matt (00:07)
I am Sick Matt, reminding you that anybody can make a podcast about movies they have seen. We are here because we haven't. Thanks for joining us on Cinemisses and Action.

Tug McTighe (00:16)
outstanding. Matt's birthday is today everyone. So happy birthday to Matt. close. Today's the Friday of your birthday. Observed.

Matt (00:19)
No, my birthday is Sunday, but thank you. It's close. It's the eighth.

Yes, so I've had the flu since Wednesday. My kid brought it home from school as kids are want to do. And it was miserable like day one. Excuse me day one was. Chills like uncontrollable chills like I look like the girl from the exorcist on the couch just like. Oh, it was horrible. And I couldn't you know my I was alternating between.

Tug McTighe (00:45)
Just, just, yeah, just shaking.

hot freezing

Matt (00:53)
These fevers. Yeah, I had weird fever

dreams. So like I went to bed at nine and then had a dream that my wife and I were playing ⁓ Mario Kart Wii like three generations of Mario Kart ago and I was just furiously trying to win. And so then at the end I did win and I woke up just drenched in sweat. ⁓ Yeah, because I'd been I'd had I've been freezing when I went to bed so I had three blankets.

Tug McTighe (01:13)
Yeah, so.

Matt (01:20)
and a coat, had a winter coat on top of me. Oh yeah, and I was fully dressed and I had socks on and everything, which I don't do. So she came up and I said, did you just sleep downstairs? I said, are you just coming up now? Cause I kept you awake. And she said, it's 9.45.

Tug McTighe (01:21)
Just bring a winner code.

You

were asleep for 43 minutes.

Matt (01:37)
Yeah, I thought I was I thought it was three in the morning. So it was crazy. So yesterday was a little better. And today is today's much better. So I think so.

Tug McTighe (01:39)
thought it was the whole night. That's right. That's so funny when that happens.

Feel like you're on the mend.

Well, thanks for pushing through.

Matt (01:50)
Yeah, so you wanna jump into this? Okay, I'm gonna go on a limb here since you are A, a hotshot creative director and B, as we've said many times, Casey has a thriving advertising community that I think rivals much larger metros. And C, California has a lot of businesses in need of advertising. So I'm gonna bet that at some point in your life, you have been to California and had In-N-Out Burger, is that right?

Tug McTighe (01:52)
Yeah, I'm ready.

Facts.

I have been to California many times. I've made many commercials in California and I have had in fact in and out burger many times.

Matt (02:20)
Okay, what is your impression of In-N-Out Burger?

Tug McTighe (02:22)
I like getting an albrigger.

Matt (02:23)
That's good. Okay. I asked because some people will say it's good. Some people say it's the best hamburger you'll ever have anywhere.

Tug McTighe (02:23)
Yeah, yeah.

It's the best. They they

can't get enough of it. They're church of in and out.

Matt (02:33)
Yeah, and I don't know if I believe that to be true, but I think that they believe it to be true. Yep.

Tug McTighe (02:39)
Which is okay, but I don't

believe in future either. It's smart, it's the forced scarcity of in and out, right?

Matt (02:45)
That's true, because you can't get it right.

It's for beers what dogfish had used to be.

Tug McTighe (02:49)
Yep, and yingling now they're going national be a member when yingling was only on the East Coast and people like all yingling It's the best and I'm like, it's not the best. It's just rare. It's just you can't get it

Matt (02:53)
Yeah, the English is not that good. It's not very good.

Regardless, I don't think, even if you wouldn't say it's the best burger in the world, I don't think anybody would say it's not a good burger. I'd say it's very good burger. You may have one you like better, but it's solid. ⁓

Tug McTighe (03:04)
No, it's good burger.

And like Jules

from Pulp Fiction, I do like a tasty burger.

Matt (03:12)
I do too. So the movie we're talking about today is, my opinion, the In-N-Out Burger of movies. Acclaimed, beloved.

Tug McTighe (03:17)
You always

make a corner turn that I like.

Matt (03:23)
Yeah, I'm an allergy guy. So maybe it may be a little overrated, maybe not. But regardless, a very well done film. The movie is Ryan Coogler's 2025 horror thriller Sinners. That's the movie we're talking about today.

Tug McTighe (03:34)
Yeah, I see what you did there. Yeah, because it got 16 Academy Award nominations, which is coming up in a couple of weeks, I believe, ⁓ Well, there you go. But probably maybe not 16. But hey, good for it. Good for it, I say. And we'll talk about this later. But good for sinners. Good for Googler.

Matt (03:40)
It's actually next week, I think. Next weekend.

Nope. Yeah, right, right.

Yeah, for sure. So as always, we asked the person who's not seen the movie in this case, it is you what you thought you knew about it going in. So take it away.

Tug McTighe (03:57)
Well, I already mentioned that I knew it was directed by Ryan Coogler. I'm assuming he had a hand in writing it. He got famous with Creed, with Michael B. Jordan, which I quite liked. Then he got famous with Black Panther, even more famous, Marvel famous, which I quite liked Black Panther, also with Michael B. Jordan. And then I knew it was a story starring Michael B. Jordan as brothers or twins about post-depression, the South,

Post-depression Mississippi I knew Haley Steinfeld was in it soon. Mrs. Josh Allen And then I go well, that's interesting Two twins trying to make their way in the world after World War one and this going back home to Mississippi And then I learned that someone was gonna get eaten by a vampire

Matt (04:38)
vampires.

Tug McTighe (04:39)
That's not what I thought was, not what I, not where I thought that sentence would end when I first heard about sinners.

Matt (04:44)
Right. But I think you're right on Josh Allen is an athlete of some sort. Is that right? Hey. Okay. And to pile onto this, Kugler, his breakthrough film was Fruitvale Station, which also starred Michael B. Jordan. So he's been his sort of muse for years. So I think you're right. The log line.

Tug McTighe (04:48)
Yes, go sports ball. He's a Buffalo Bills quarterback.

His muse. Yeah, his. Yeah.

Matt (05:06)
Trying to leave their troubled lives behind, twin brothers return to their hometown to start again, only to discover that an even greater evil is waiting to welcome them back.

Tug McTighe (05:14)
Yeah, they went to Chicago and got involved with Al Capone. They thought that was tough. They didn't have a clue.

Matt (05:18)
Yes, absolutely.

But I love, we'll talk about that more, how you get to piece that together. He does not give you big exposition dumps.

Tug McTighe (05:24)
Yeah. Nah, it's doled out.

Yeah, it's done well. It's done in dialogue, which is how you're supposed to do it.

Matt (05:29)
Yeah, you get little breadcrumbs and then you put it all together. So, Doug, why don't you talk about what it's about?

Tug McTighe (05:34)
Yep. It's a 2025 American horror film produced, written and directed by Ryan Coogler set in 1932 in the Mississippi Delta. Again, Michael B. Jordan in dual rules as criminal, identical twin brothers who would turn to their hometown in the Jim Crow South where they are confronted by a supernatural evil, AKA vampires. Haley Steinfeld, Miles Katen in his film debut. talk about him in a bit. Jack O'Connell, Delroy Lindo shows up. It is great in this.

Matt (05:58)
Love, Tom

Ridlando.

Tug McTighe (05:59)
⁓ lots of other folks, the, film received critical acclaim was a commercial success grossing 370 million worldwide against the budget of about a hundred million. So pretty good. And then it, it got listed as a top 10 film of the year. A record 16 nominations at the Academy Awards, 13 nominations at the BAFTAs on and on and on and on and on and on. So, it, it, was popular with the people popular with the critics.

Matt (06:23)
Yeah, there was actually one horror film that grossed more at the box office. And this was probably 25 years ago. Can you guess what that was?

Tug McTighe (06:31)
25 years ago you say?

Matt (06:33)
I think so.

Tug McTighe (06:33)
Or is it like our 80s math, when we think the 80s were 25 years ago? Horror film? ⁓ get out. Get out.

Matt (06:37)
I could be wrong. Anyway, it was a breakthrough. ⁓ It was a breakthrough sort of.

No, that just happened.

Tug McTighe (06:45)
Was five years ago. Tell me that I don't know

Matt (06:47)
Okay, it was six cents.

Tug McTighe (06:48)
See, I wouldn't call Sixth Sense the horror film, but it made a shit ton of money.

Matt (06:50)
Right?

It did make a lot of money, but this was a lot of money too. ⁓ Yeah, speaking of the awards, I feel like sometimes the added industry has a tendency towards self congratulation, but we've got nothing on these guys. I feel like there were there are more because actors need that. They need that right?

Tug McTighe (06:56)
very much so.

Yeah, you think? No, no.

goddamn that as if the adulation

the visibility and the sheer amount of money isn't enough. They here's a piece of plastic for you. Take it home and put it on your mantle.

Matt (07:16)
Yeah, what else have they got? They gotta have a word show. Yeah, I believe the Oscars

are the 15th, so we'll know in a week.

Tug McTighe (07:23)
So development started around 2024 or so. He had an idea. He's a big wheel. He can get it made. He had an idea for a period film through his production company, Proximity Media. Ryan Cooler is the him in this situation. Again, right away, Michael B. Jordan is cast. I think at this point, Michael B. Jordan calls him and says, got a movie. And Jordan's like, just send the tickets. Tell me when to be there.

Matt (07:48)
We've seen Wes

Anderson, we've seen other directors that do this. They've got a well, they go back. yeah.

Tug McTighe (07:50)
Yep. Yep. Yep. I would do this too. Where I them.

so this, as soon as he started writing it, Sony, Warner, Universal, everybody's in a, in a bidding war. ⁓ about 90 million bucks as we said, as the budget, a Hollywood reporter says Warner Brothers greenlit the film with a production budget of 80 million, but it climbed about a hundred million. Hoogler, ⁓ in exchange for the, again, this is a power play that not everybody gets to do. ⁓

He, he, he was asking first dollar gross. means he makes his money right away and he had, and final cut. I cut it. You put it out. and then I love this. And a lot of guys are starting to do this, Matt, where they're saying, I want to own the movie outright in 25 years. So you get that it's big time. Cause then you can, you can maximize it. So not to belabor the star Wars point, but every movie after star Wars, George Lucas self-financed.

He didn't ask anybody for money. He didn't ask anybody for distribution. He said, I'm writing the check. So he owned everything. He controlled everything. And of course it was Star Wars. So they were lining up to distribute it. but, but this is kind of that deal. First dollar gross. And I get, I get the masters at the end. Pretty big deal.

Matt (08:55)
Yeah, for sure. ⁓ If we could talk about Ryan Coogler, because I think he's an interesting cat. Yeah, if you want somebody to root for in that environment, he's the guy born in Oakland, because I thought, geez, was he? You know, I knew a little bit about where he went to school, so I thought, was he just rich or his parents rich? Not at all. ⁓ Born in Oakland, grew up in Richmond, California, which is near San Francisco. He went to Saint Mary's College of California on a football scholarship.

Tug McTighe (08:59)
Pretty neat story,

No, the opposite.

Matt (09:22)
and was encouraged to take a creative writing course and just fell in love with writing.

Tug McTighe (09:25)
Somebody write somebody said man, you're creative bro. You should go I love how you write some teacher or somebody and then and then this it's just I love those kind of stories

Matt (09:33)
And then St. Mary's got rid of their football program. So he finished at Sacramento State with a degree in finance, of all things.

And then entered a master's program at USC. He got his MFA in film in 2011, which if you know anything about an MFA in film, that's the least likely to pay off major. His mother was a community organizer, which I don't think makes a lot of money. His father, a juvenile hall probation counselor, also don't think it makes a of money. He was raised Baptist and attended Catholic schools, which is clearly reflected. Absolutely.

Tug McTighe (09:54)
You correct. Yeah.

All of it finds its way into this.

Matt (10:09)
And I think he left college with like $200,000 in student loan debt. So it's good that he's been successful. He's not a Nepal baby, self-made author. Exactly. His breakthrough film Fruitvale Station was in 2013. Then the Creed movies, Black Panther and the sequels to those, but also TV. He's contributed to Marvel on Disney Plus doing live action stuff with Ironheart, which kind of is okay or not great, but depends on how you feel about it.

Tug McTighe (10:15)
Could be to add that first color gross map.

Matt (10:35)
and animated stuff, what if in Marvel zombies, I actually watched Marvel zombies today, which is animated. and he's working on a reboot of the X-Files, which is a show he said he grew up with and loved.

Tug McTighe (10:37)
I love those, I love those what ifs.

I'm down. I love Michael B Jordan as a Mulder.

Matt (10:51)
that'd be cool. So the point is he's not too good for any of this. He's not like, I'm too good for TV. I just do movies.

Tug McTighe (10:54)
No, and he well, and

he grew up poor and he's made it and those guys often turn into hustlers. Like, Hey, you want me to shoot a couple of episodes of that thing? You bet. Let's work, right? Let's Yeah.

Matt (11:06)
Yeah, well, they appreciate the they have

a love for the medium. So they can make something and don't feel like it's it's beneath them or they're too good for it. I I I like that kind of humility. And I think he's got a lot of it. Apparently singer songwriter Halsey auditioned for the role that went to Haley Steinfeld and machine gun Kelly, who I don't know much about, but is he a rapper? Like a white rapper. Does have a lot of tattoos?

Tug McTighe (11:28)
Yeah musician rapper. Yeah. Yes white guy

He does But he's not post Malone who also has a lot of tattoos

Matt (11:33)
Yeah, but everybody does.

Yes, he was offered the opportunity to audition for the role of Bert that went to Peter Dre Manis, but he declined because he was not comfortable saying a word that we will not say here, but it starts with N.

Tug McTighe (11:46)
I, yep,

well done. Your values aren't value so they cost you money. So principal photography began in New Orleans on April 14th, 24 under the working title grilled cheese, which I like. No.

Matt (11:57)
Do you know why that is? ⁓

Because Kugler likes gourmet food, but he wanted this to be a movie that anybody can enjoy. So it's like a grilled cheese sandwich of movies.

Tug McTighe (12:07)
Okay.

Okay. I like it. I love a grilled cheese by the way. ⁓ the production spent about 70 million on location in Louisiana, which I got to tell you is a gigantic amount of money for producing films in towns and in places on location. So that's great. the film's production designer, Hannah Beechler acknowledged the way that the church and the film was designed included cross beams that made the Wakanda forever.

Matt (12:12)
It doesn't.

Louisiana.

Tug McTighe (12:34)
gesture, which I think is funny. some of these costumes were originally designed for the MCU film blade, which is interesting, connection. and again, there's a lot of stuff here about prohibition, about post depression, about Jim Crow era where, she was, there was a similar thing happening in blade. So they were able to just sort of shift this over. So

Just an interesting, interesting, lucky moment.

Matt (12:57)
Yeah, blade was I think going to be. I don't even know if it'll ever get finished. That's with my hash. I can't make it. Yes, but it was going to be a period piece and then they said no, we're not going to do that. So they went to Kevin. Yeah, I was it the whole time and it's such a good idea, but they went to Kevin Feige and said, hey, can we use this stuff? And he said, sure, we're not useful. Go for it.

Tug McTighe (13:03)
Maharishi Ali.

Yeah, that one's all if that one falling apart was kind of weird

He's just laying here in a

Um, Kugler cited the stuff you after watching the movie, the stuff you would think he would cite as influences, Tarantino, Jordan Pio, Christopher Nolan, Francis Ford Coppola, which we'll talk about in a minute. Brian DePalmola, Spike Lee. Um, I love that the Metallica song one, uh, was an inspiration, but what I want to talk about real fast.

is that he loves Robert Rodriguez of Desperado and El Mariachi and of course from Dusk Till Dawn. So I want to talk about people who are like, well, this is just from Dusk Till Dawn again. And by I, mean, you talk about it.

Matt (13:57)
Yeah.

Yeah,

I've seen a lot of haters complaining online that Sinners is just a ripoff of From Dusk Till Dawn, which I did not go back and watch, even though I thought about doing it. But given his influence as he did mention, I think that's lazy. I think the faculty is an interesting influence there.

Tug McTighe (14:14)
I forgot that that was Rodriguez. That's where John Stewart's a teacher and they get possessed by the alien creature and it takes them all over and it's a high find and all this. Right.

Matt (14:16)
Right, absolutely.

Yeah, and you don't know who it is.

So when he says this like the thing is one of your favorite movies, his favorite horror movie that that has a lot in common with that. Where there is people that are possessed and you don't know who they are and which ones are and which ones aren't. ⁓

Tug McTighe (14:29)
Right. Right.

Yeah, 100%.

I get frustrated,

Matt. You say it's lazy. It's so easy to say, well, this is just a rip off of From Dusk Till Dawn. Well, what? So, okay, so then every vampire movie's a rip off of every other vampire movie. So then every zombie movie's a rip off. No, it's a shared lore, not Matt lore, but L-O-R-E lore. It's a shared history of these kinds of characters, and they're created in a new world. There's nothing in common.

Matt (14:53)
Yeah, and also...

Tug McTighe (15:07)
with a bar in the middle of the desert in modern, just that they're vampire. just drives me crazy to say it just throws away everything that this person worked for and wrote for and tried to create. It's just, I think that's just a stupid lazy is a great word for it. You know what it is? It's just shut up and watch it. Just shut up.

Matt (15:22)
Right. ⁓

And they're different kinds of like we said, they're different kinds of vampires. mean, at sometimes they seem more like zombies, sometimes kind of like demons, sometimes shapeshifters like in the thing, sometimes like a collective consciousness where he is pulling the strings or he's influencing all the rest of them like a hive mind, like you mentioned. So it's not just a straight ripoff at all. It's an homage in a lot of ways. And we all draw influences, creative influences from different places.

Tug McTighe (15:46)
No, no.

Matt (15:51)
⁓

So we talked about Kugler's collaborators. Another frequent collaborator is Ludwig Goranson. ⁓

Tug McTighe (15:59)
By the way, that's

name you don't get to say very often. It's Ludovico Goranson. And he has the rare double dot over the O. Yeah, so it's very good.

Matt (16:02)
No, that's a mouthful. ⁓

to umlaut. ⁓

He described centers as very personal and ambitious. He drew inspiration obviously from blues music. And he performed the score on a 1932 dobro Cyclops resonator guitar, which is a really interesting looking guitar, right? It's the same

Tug McTighe (16:25)
Yes, it has the metal.

The movie the guitar in the movie as the metal piece. It's that kind of a guitar. Yeah.

Matt (16:31)
Yeah, was super cool. ⁓

So again, from a visual perspective and design perspective, just really neat. The movie, according to the producer, serves as a dedication to Cougar's Uncle James, who was a native of the Mississippi region. And through lifelong conversations about the blues, his uncle helped Cougar develop a personal connection to the history and culture of the area, era and the area.

Interestingly to me, much of the film was recorded live on set, and the cast members were performing alongside of blues musicians. So that was happening during the filming. ⁓

Tug McTighe (17:01)
Yeah

So like

really organic, because it's a feeling genre, the blues. It's an emotion. It's in the room. It's live. And they even say it in the end. goes, I didn't like it when you went electric. I like the feel of that old school acoustic, right? So there's just a lot of that.

Matt (17:06)
Yeah.

Yeah, the music such a part of this and I can imagine how different that would be if they were just performing in an empty room or with a soundtrack or pretending instead to actually have music playing right there. Being part of.

Tug McTighe (17:29)
Well, and I just, also

think right. The, the, the, the urban legend about Robert Johnson, right. Is that he sold his soul to the devil at the crossroads to become the best blues man on the planet. And I just, all that blues is steeped in this religion and slavery and the black experience and right. the lived in the devil and God and it's all messy ball of shit. And we got to sing our way out of it. So yeah, fascinating shit.

Matt (17:45)
Yeah, it's very layered.

Yeah, there's a lot to it.

Hailey Steinfeld, if you did not know, is also a singer. She wrote and recorded the original song, Dangerous for the Film. Tremendously talented. She's the voice of Gwen Stacy in the Spider-Verse movies, among a hundred other things.

Tug McTighe (18:05)
She's what's her name in Hawkeye? I like that.

Matt (18:07)
Kate Bishop. I like that too. I thought it was really good. ⁓ And she's also the niece of fitness trainer Jake Steinfeld. If you remember during the 80s, body by Jake and he was he was the cab driver in coming to America.

Tug McTighe (18:09)
Yeah, I like that. Yeah.

Body by Jake? Baby, come on. Yep, of course he was.

Of course he was.

Matt (18:22)
Very good. ⁓

Tug McTighe (18:23)
All

right. Okay. So let's talk about the tomato meter, man. It's a, we've, we've, we've done a lot of episodes. We've never seen a score of this. I don't think 97 % on the tomato meter for critics, 428 ratings and 96 % on the popcorn meter, 25,000 plus ratings. So eight, yeah, that it doesn't, it's not going to get much higher. people loved it. Critics loved it and the Academy loved it. So.

Matt (18:41)
That's as high as I've ever seen.

Tug McTighe (18:49)
Sinners as we said 280 million gross in the US and Canada on a 90 100 on a hundred million dollar budget Made about 90 million in other places. So about 370 million against 100 million our budget not not too shabby

Matt (19:03)
No, he can make box office blockbusters so he can think big. That's impressive.

Tug McTighe (19:08)
Um, as I said, critics adored it generally praising the vision and the cinema to cinematography is beautiful. You know, there's this, keeps happening where in these intimate moments, it goes to a, uh, letter box. gets tighter. And then when the action sequences are big expenses, it opens up to full full screen. And that was, I met, shot it in big IMAX. And so there were this interesting like.

Aspect ratio changing, but the cinematography is beautiful. They praise it as being bigger than the boundaries of a franchise. You know, a franchise being Marvel or a franchise being Batman. Wendy Eide of The Observer wrote, Kugler's assurance and vision holds everything together. Because I do think with a lesser filmmaker, this falls to pieces.

Matt (19:53)
Right.

Tug McTighe (19:53)
because it's two distinctly different things that we're stitching together and that's hard to do. Again, I think a lot of critics also suggested that the film's more grounded, more historic, more realistic first part was superior to the supernatural vampire stuff. And I gotta agree with that. I thought that too.

While I really liked the movie, I said to myself, Hey, this post-depression Jim Crow exploration of what it means to be black in Mississippi is really, really striking. And then I get to act two and it's like, Hey, can we come in? Said the guy who turned out to be a vampire. Okay. But I was in no way was I bored with the setup of the twins meeting the twins, getting the lay of the land.

them separating to go, go do these errands, you go do these errands, come, I was into it. Cause the vampires don't show up for a long fucking time. Yeah.

Matt (20:49)
No, they don't. And

to your point, like you wouldn't even notice vampire movie if you don't if you stop halfway through.

So back to the music. It was a huge part of the movie. was widely praised by the critics who noted centrality to the film story. I felt like it was almost a musical.

Tug McTighe (21:07)
Well, it's certainly a character. The music is certainly a character.

Matt (21:10)
Right. David Ehrlich of IndieWire wrote, isn't the first time a Ludwig Göransson score has been inextricable from the texture of Ryan Coogler movie. But Sinners opens with someone talking about a kind of music so pure it can pierce the veil between life and death, past and future, and then proceeds to show it exactly. That was a really interesting scene. ⁓ Yes, Göransson scored Fruitvale Station and Creed, as well as Nolan's Oppenheimer and actually Nolan and his wife, who

Tug McTighe (21:25)
And then gives that to you. Yeah Yeah

Matt (21:38)
they have the production company together came in and showed them how to film that on IMAX. So you had a lot of really talented people involved in this.

Tug McTighe (21:46)
Yeah,

it's really, really dynamite when you break it down like this. So speaking of music, if you like music, you should try to make some with our sponsor, Little Bear Graphics.

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Matt (22:32)
Nice. Those are so great.

Tug McTighe (22:35)
So let's talk about the cast, big cast. the cast. Michael B. Jordan is in the double role as the smokestack twins. With named after smokestack lightning by Hallen Wolf from 1958. So it's Elijah smoke more. He's the older, more serious, pragmatic and straightforward business twin.

Matt (22:38)
Yes!

Tug McTighe (22:52)
Elias Stackmore is a younger, more cheerful and charming twin. I don't know how much older, how much younger, but you definitely felt one was older, one was younger. ⁓

Matt (22:59)
Yeah,

I felt like stack was the younger one just because he was a little more freewheeling and stone smoke was a little more serious. Michael B. Jordan said he was not a horror fan. He said he took the role to see how it was done, what it was about.

Tug McTighe (23:05)
Little more loose. Yeah.

⁓

yeah, to check to say, OK, how do you how do you make these kind of movies? Love it.

Matt (23:18)
Yeah, maybe I'll give it a try.

And he says he likes the genre a lot more now. I don't blame him.

Tug McTighe (23:22)
There you go.

Haley Steinfeld is Mary Stacks ex-girlfriend who passes as white but explains.

Hey, I never wanted to be white. I'm black. My mother was half black and she identifies that way. So I thought that was an interesting, kind of character trait.

Matt (23:38)
I agree. But they didn't give it to us right away. We had to kind of draw that out of her. ⁓ So I love that. And I also love that they eventually paid it off. There were a lot of questions I had that were answered. And we had a movie not long ago where a lot of stuff didn't get paid off at all. So I appreciated that.

Tug McTighe (23:42)
No, they doled it out. Yep.

100%.

We're a lot of something that paid off. Yeah So

miles kaiten as samuel sammy more aka preacher boy. He's smokin stax cousin. He's a sharecropper. His daddy's a preacher He's an aspiring blues mission buddy guy real-life blues legend played the elderly sammy and You learn again they dole it out His dad is smokin stax uncle his dad sammy's dad is his father's brother

his no account evil brother guitar playing brother who his who the preacher brother did not want Sammy to turn out like.

Matt (24:29)
Right, that was Miles Caton's first acting gig, I believe. And boy, his voice is amazing, huh? Yeah.

Tug McTighe (24:36)
Cool voice man, right?

Jack O'Connell as Remick an Irish vampire. I'm gonna talk about the Irish overtones here shortly, which I can't wait to as an Irish guy He signed on despite only reading the script once He's like I understood I will be singing Irish folk songs the dancing a jig on screen on screen. I'm This is my dream and he I love this

They're shooting in Louisiana. goes, ⁓ one of the scenes we shot was interrupted when an alligator wanted on set. And he's like, can we go shoot somewhere else? They're like, no, we cannot. So carry on. great. Some great character bits. wound me. Mosaku is Annie smokes estranged wife and a hoodoo practitioner. We'll talk about hoodoo, not voodoo. Jamie Lawson is Pearlene, a married singer with whom Sammy becomes smitten.

Omar Benson Miller as cornbread. would know Omar Benson Miller Miller, sorry, from a lot of stuff. He's been in a lot of movies. Delroy Lindo is Delta Slim. The second I saw him, I'm like, it's going to be great. And then he got nominated. He's a drunk harmonica player, musical legend. I adored him in this, Matt, what'd think?

Matt (25:33)
Yeah, he always thought he was fantastic. He earned the best supporting actor nomination. I thought he deserved it. He did not see it as a horror movie. He saw it as a story about a community being infiltrated, And he gave Kugler script notes and told them when he thought something wasn't working or something would work better. And to his credit, Kugler listened to him.

Tug McTighe (25:50)
Delroy fucking Lindo is a legend. He's been in hundreds of films and always is great. I'm glad to see him get nominated for this. ⁓ Peter Dry Manus is Burt, local KKK member. Lola Kirk is June, another KKK member, Burt's wife. I loved Lee Joon Lee as Grace Chow. I loved Yao as Bo Chow. Saul Williams was Jedidiah Moore, Sammy's dad and the brother to the twins' dad.

Matt (25:58)
Yeah, me too.

Tug McTighe (26:15)
lots of great, lots of great stuff. Lots of great cast. It's yeah, it's tight. It's as big a movie as it is.

Matt (26:17)
but a fairly tight cast for as big a movie as it is.

Robin noted that the Chows were doing pretty well. had businesses on both sides of the street.

Tug McTighe (26:28)
They had doubles. Yeah, double go

get your mom. She and we and that we'll talk about it later, but he used those one or shots a lot. Googler did right. Just follow the little girl across. She talks to mom, comes back across just really beautifully made.

Matt Lohr, now that we've done the Prelude, let's do the Lude. And that Lude is the plot.

Matt (26:48)
Right on. So in 1932, identical twins and World War I veterans Elijah Smoke and Elias Stack Moore returned to Clarksdale Mississippi after spending seven years in Chicago working for the outfit. So yes, we find out they were in Chicago and then later find out they were working with Capone. And then even later, Annie puts together that the Irish beer and the Italian wine that they have at their juke joint.

Tug McTighe (27:10)
They fucked both

ethnicities on their way out of town.

Matt (27:13)
Yeah, they were playing both sides. So I've given a lot of thought to the title sinners. And there are lot of ways where it fits. But I think this is one of them. Their sins in Chicago are following them home. So there's no getting out of it for them. There's probably not going to be a happy ending for these two guys. But the story is so well crafted. Like I said, you don't get an exposition dump where they just say,

Tug McTighe (27:16)
Yeah

No, it's not

just any just espousing these things that she knows that we don't know. It's doled out in a way again, through action and dialogue and, and, performance. It's just really good. Yeah. It's trust us as you, you loved, yeah. You love to be trusted to, know what's going on or to fit that, not to know Matt, but to figure it out. And if I can't figure it out as a viewer, it's the writer's fault.

Matt (27:46)
and trusting the audience, trusting us to be able to put these things together.

Tug McTighe (28:00)
100 % ⁓ Okay. So like you said, they're all sinners. There's no way for anybody to be okay here, They're all sinners in their own way. They're all doing something that they shouldn't be doing We see that in the bookends of the film at the church, right? Preacher boys being asked by his father to repent You're pretty sure in the beginning that he's not going to and you know at the end he's not going to And we're proved right. So again, it's just a nice nice way to frame everything up

Matt (28:00)
Right. Right.

Right, so the smokestack twins have money that they've stolen and it allows them to purchase a sawmill from a land over named Hogwood who I had a bad feeling about from the start. Yeah, absolutely. So they want to start a juke joint. It's been their dream for local black community. Their younger cousin Sammy, who's a singer and guitarist, joins them despite his pastor father jettadize warnings about warnings about the sins of blues music.

Tug McTighe (28:34)
The second we meet him I'm like, that guy's definitely a of the clan.

Matt (28:51)
There's a scene which I want to go back and watch where you're leaning against the car and Michael B. Jordan first because their costumes were amazing. They look super cool.

Tug McTighe (28:54)
when they're leaning against the car? Yeah.

Yeah,

right. And we got one blue hat one red hat. Yeah.

Matt (29:03)
yeah, very

cool. And they're standing next to one another. And you know, it's Michael B. Jordan playing two roles, but he's handing. You forget that they're not two people, because he's handing a lighter back and forth to himself. Yep.

Tug McTighe (29:08)
Right, you fucking forget that it's one dude, man.

Well, he's rolling a cigarette at first,

and then he hands a cigarette, he lights it, they're passing it back and forth, and it's flawless.

Matt (29:23)
They took, I think, a lot of work to make that work, but that's pretty impressive.

Tug McTighe (29:26)
I love it.

Yeah. And you've got these already, Matt, you know, he mentioned Coppola as a, as an influence. Well, right away you're getting the pastor Jetta dial warning the son about the sins of blues music. You're getting right away the juxtaposition of evil and religion, right? Which we got blown up in our faces in the Godfathers.

And I still find this friction between religion and doing being religious or professing your faith while doing evil to be really fertile ground for storytelling. I really like it.

Matt (30:00)
Yeah, absolutely.

Tug McTighe (30:02)
Okay. All right. Smoke and stack recruit a pianist Delta slim as a performer. That's Delroy Lindo. Uh, they're friends with these local Chinese shopkeepers, grace and bow. Um, they're supplying them. They need a sign. They need this and that. And the third thing, and they're all like, I love their, they're all, um, negotiating with each other. I'll give you 14, 17, 50, 15 done. So I liked all that. Um, they go get cornbread out of the field cause you need a bouncer.

Matt (30:20)
Right.

Thank

Tug McTighe (30:28)
They bring smoke's wife Annie in as a cook or is it his wife her wife? They have a baby, but either way his love the love of his life. I would say

Matt (30:36)
I think it's why

his wife I just think after they lost her baby. just skipped out.

Tug McTighe (30:41)
Yeah, he

Annie is a conjure woman Who practices who do not voodoo? It's a different kind of religion and she she tells a smoke that I who do you think was keeping you safe in the fucking war and in Chicago because I put the Wards on you and and he has the little necklace with the herbs in it, right the little mojo bag

Matt (31:01)
Right. Well,

job, Eric.

Tug McTighe (31:03)
He's wearing it, Matt. he, even though he sort of, it's like, who do she, I see you the bag, right? that will come back to your point. stack then they've separated to run all their errands to get the juke joint ready stacks. He's Mary on the train platform who he abandoned to protect her from the white community. They're in love. He's like, you pass as white. You, you cannot be with me. You've got to go get a white husband in a white town and what she does and she's miserable.

And then we, we see this guy running to this house. He's running away from these Choctaw native Americans. And he, that's when he goes into Burt's house and he says, I just need help. And he's getting burned because the sun's coming up. And that's your first.

Little bit of the vampire and then you see that you see that he looks over and there's a clan robe and then He goes into their house and then we see the chalk talk coming And they're this like group of vampire hunters And they're talking to Bert and his wife and they're like well the person you brought in there I don't think you should have brought him in and the other guy goes Hey, man, the Sun's going now. We need to get the fuck out of here. And so they get out

Matt (32:01)
Right. And then he says

something, he says something in Choctaw, which is translated as good luck. You're going to need it.

Tug McTighe (32:07)
Very funny. So that was a funny bit. ⁓

Matt (32:08)
Yeah, I thought that was funny. Yeah, I didn't know who

do was a thing,

Tug McTighe (32:13)
I'm going to

please allow me to enlighten you, Matt, but I'm only enlightening you because I was enlightened by an episode of another podcast, which is in fact my favorite podcast, imaginary worlds with Eric Malinsky. He just did an episode about centers and about who do, and it talks about the, the trope of the conjure woman. It talks about the differences between voodoo and who do, and what this is. it's an earth.

base roots and herbs and that sort of thing. go listen to that episode. Go listen to imaginary worlds for God's sake. It's a fucking great podcast, but it, I actually listened to it before I watched sinners. Cause I liked, I just listened to every episode. so go check that out. Really, really good. But I got, did have a little annoyance that the, that the chalk tall were, were coming in as the magic vampire hunters.

Like we never saw them again. It was just like a Native American trope like the medicine man. I don't know. There was just something about it I didn't like. I got over really quickly because the movie is great and it moves.

Matt (33:14)
Yeah, and I know they

wanted to make a connection between the Irish, the Southern blacks and the Choctaw because they all have something in common. There's something about the Choctaw and the Irish had supported each other because after the Trail of Tears, the Choctaw there's kind of a solidarity between those two communities. So that was part of it.

Tug McTighe (33:21)
Yeah, 100%.

I love it. Yeah. Well, I'm going to talk about that in

a minute. So yeah, it put a pin in it

Matt (33:38)
Got it.

Tug McTighe (33:38)
So on the juke joints opening night Sammy Delta swim and purlene a singer with whom Sammy becomes enamored perform on stage

Matt (33:46)
So I'm obsessed with everybody's sins now. So Perline already told us she's married because she told Sammy that when she met him at the train station. He's saying and you know how that had the effect that has on the ladies. Yeah, so they hooked up in the back room. So she's committing adultery and he's complicit. the song he plays. So I thought this was really interesting. So how did you feel about that scene?

Tug McTighe (33:52)
right away he's like whoo-wee are you gonna sing tonight?

They did more than spring, didn't they, Matt?

⁓ I think it's the centerpiece of the whole movie. At the beginning of the movie, remember, they tell us some of these people had the power to break through space and time with their music and bring the past and the present and the future together and the ancestors and the future ancestors and us now. And that's what he does. And I thought that that

the visualization by Kugler of that where he had Sammy, it's like a big room circular camera coming around Sammy's playing. You suddenly see like a black guy rock, like a P-Funk guy rocking out on guitar. They go over the shoulder of a DJ who's like, your boy like in the house, like doing that, like, and then it goes to African dancers and other roots music. And it's just all happening in this three or four minute scene.

Matt (34:40)
He was like a part, like a P-Funk guy, right?

Tug McTighe (34:57)
And I know I think it's stunning. And I will tell you that if you like that scene, Matt, please listen to that episode of measure worlds because they talk about it at length. really great. ⁓ really moving. thought, no, yeah.

Matt (35:09)
Yeah, I thought it was really

creatively impressive. And the other thing, remember, they said at the beginning is that the people that can do this, that can pierce that veil of time and space also attract these kind of demons.

Tug McTighe (35:23)
attract

these other forces exactly.

Matt (35:27)
So,

of course, this performance attracts Remic and his vampires.

Tug McTighe (35:30)
Yes, so he's now turned Bert and his wife into vampires. They come up to the juke joint with their instruments and say, Hey, we're just good people wanting to have a good time and we want to play some music for you guys. And they play a song for them and you know, sort of a Irish blue grassy sounding, tune. and they offer, money and music in exchange for entry. Now remember a vampire cannot come in unless invited.

Matt (35:53)
Lost boys rules.

Tug McTighe (35:53)
So there's,

there's a little bit of that, right? so I want to talk about this being a mick tie and it being very close to St. Patrick's day and me wearing a green tie dye. ⁓ I love this Kugler. I found this interview where he said he made Remick Irish cause he wanted to explore the parallels between Irish and African-American history specifically regarding the shared experiences of colonization, suffering and music.

He said, I've always been inspired by Irish culture. I wanted to create this pre-colonial character whose history as an outsider to American racial dynamics. Let's him to not only interact with and support, but also prey upon the black folks in that 1932 community. so Remick we'll learn in a minute that he remembers when.

He was Celtic and the white people came and the English, the white people tug, the English came and colonized Ireland, jamming Catholicism down their throats. then jamming, first the Christians came and then the British came jamming Protestantism down their throats. So it's just this really interesting thing. We'll talk about it in a second. I don't want to get ahead of myself. So he's trying to get in and smoke who's the more

Grounded of the twins is like no way No way and and stack is like, I don't know. Let them in man. It'll be cool. It'll be cool So they they refuse don't let him in And then we get to a problem where the The community is trading in wood and nickels you've ever heard Never take a look. Don't take a wooden any wood nickels so they're trading in wood nickels and money that

that they have as valuable, but is not US tender.

Matt (37:31)
Right. So the companies that these people work for give them money that they can use in their own general stores and this sort of thing. So they get

Tug McTighe (37:36)
in their own community. Correct. And

it's worth it's valuable in those communities, but nowhere else. And smoke, knowing that they've stolen real green. He's like, No, we need to make real money. So it's a nice, nice tension, right? The stakes get raised a little bit.

Matt (37:53)
So Mary suggests that they need some outside income. since these white folks that showed up and played folk music for them showed some gold and like real gold, ⁓ she thought it might make sense for her to go out and talk to them and see if maybe they could because she passes his white. But she is turned by Remick.

Tug McTighe (38:02)
Like gold, a couple of gold pieces, like gold, like, yeah.

because she passes this way.

Didn't

take long, did it?

Matt (38:17)
It was pretty cool. She's walking away from you see Remick behind her just launch up into the sky was and then it cut. Very cool, ⁓ so she gets back inside. Seducer stack, which doesn't take a whole lot of work. And then she's interrupted by Sammy who thinks that.

Tug McTighe (38:23)
Yeah, like I'm flying. Again, lost voice. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, they're right there.

They're having sex. He says go get stack. He owns the door. He's like, you got to go get him. And then when smoke comes in, she's just chewing on him. Right. Blood is flying everywhere.

Matt (38:45)
Right. she,

yeah, gets up. She's like, we're to kill you all runs out the door. And we all believe now that stack is dead and she's gone. So that was pretty terrified. They shoot her, but she's on harm. Right. And then cornbread goes outside, use the bathroom and he get he gets turned in the middle of a bathroom break and then tries to get back and see

Tug McTighe (38:57)
Yeah, he gets shot like eight times, just runs out.

Yeah, cornbread, yeah.

Matt (39:07)
Then he tries to get back inside. So this is again, the Lost Boys rules, like he needs an invitation.

Tug McTighe (39:10)
N N N

Right, right. And Delroy Lindo's like, what do mean? You've been in and out of his place all night.

Matt (39:20)
So it went from being not about vampires to all about vampires.

Tug McTighe (39:20)
So,

Yeah, it went from not vampires to all vampires. So here's a bit of cornbread trying to get in.

Okay, so to your point about no, zero vampires to 10. It got super, super vampire-y all of a sudden. And Sean and I were watching my son, Sean, he'd seen it before he wanted to watch it again. We were both like, what, what, kind of vampires are these? Cause I'd seen the jumping, but then she says, we're, we're going to kill you all. And I'm like, hive mind. So I'm like, are these, wait a minute, Bella Lugosi vampires. I am count Dracula.

Vampires I am legend Zombie kind of vampires or to your question lost boys vampires and the answer is somewhere in the middle Yeah

Matt (40:02)
Right. Or creatures

from the thing where they can look like. Because we see like cornbread with his face completely ripped off and then we also see him looking perfectly fine. Robin wondered how they got all the blood off their clothes when they came back in. They must have wet wipes or towels or something, but.

Tug McTighe (40:05)
Where are they- yeah they're- right.

Right, yeah.

Yeah, they're also future. They're also masters of time and space so they could fly to the future bring back wet naps. Yeah.

Matt (40:25)
Maybe, or

maybe they all have a change of clothes. don't know. Smoke decided to close the joint early and send everybody outside, which was a bad idea.

Tug McTighe (40:34)
Yeah, so

right. All hell hasn't broken loose. A little bit of hell has broken loose. And his answer is everybody out.

Matt (40:41)
And they all thought, good idea. ⁓

Tug McTighe (40:43)
Yeah,

we better go. So smoke closes the joint. Everybody leaves. They all get turned into vampires off screen. Stack revives as a vampire, but flees after Annie repels him with a jar of pickled garlic. So Annie realizes their assailants are vampires, not heights. I think she calls them heights, H-I-G-H-T, not whites, but heights. She tells everybody how to deter them and kill them.

Although Remick and his vampire share a hive mind Their unique personalities stay intact. They just know everything that the others know

Matt (41:13)
Maybe not exactly lost boys rule because killing Remick, if we remember back to Lost Boys, if you kill the head vampire, everybody else is freed. And this movie, Annie specifically says that is not going to happen, that they were just going to live independently. But it seems like with Remick there, they're really under his thrall. He they do. Yeah, whatever he wants them to do.

Tug McTighe (41:31)
They're definitely under his straw. And he

tells Sammy, I want you in me, in us, because I want your experience and your stories and your musicianship. right, the clan member, husband and wife, weren't musicians, I believe. But then suddenly, because they're in his brain, in his hive mind, they have all of his talent. And note, right, they know how to play.

fiddle and banjo, cetera. Cause you never see them playing the fiddle or banjo before. anyway, can I have a tone break alert slash exposition alert?

Andy sure knows a fucking lot about vampires.

Dracula with Bela Lugosi came out in 1931 a year before this film is set How in the fuck did she know so much about vampires garlic can't come in? Stake through the heart is that part of the hoodoo?

Matt (42:07)
Yeah.

Well, vampires weren't in weren't invented by the movie.

Tug McTighe (42:26)
They weren't invented by the movie, but all these tropes were invented over the passing 70 years

Matt (42:31)
Well, maybe they existed forever. Maybe they always knew that.

Tug McTighe (42:34)
I don't know. I don't think so. That's right. Yeah. Now, now again, because I know all that, I don't care. And because this went from, this is an interesting period piece about our history and, and, you know, black and white relations in Jim Crow South to holy fuck, what's going to happen with these vampires. So now I'm ready for the vampires.

Matt (42:36)
I don't know, didn't bother me. It didn't bother me, but...

Right. Well, good, because they're coming. ⁓ So they still they still can't get inside unless they're invited. So now Remick and now he's got this giant like massive people outside that are kind of there, but they're singing and they're dancing. They're all kind of under his sway. It was really a choreographed.

Tug McTighe (43:00)
Yeah, I'll say.

called a horde,

Yeah, they're all together right and that was funny I was like I

go to Sean I go Where the fuck did he get all those vampires and then he goes smoke sent everybody outside. I oh, yeah, that's That's All here, right

Matt (43:23)
That's right. How'd they learn that dance? They just kind of know it.

So he tries to negotiate by inviting the survivors to join him, saying that vampirism offers immortality and freedom from persecution, which of course is bullshit because they'll just be slaves to him.

Tug McTighe (43:39)
Well, correct, right? This is where we starting to lay on the slavery and Jim Crow stuff pretty thick. I will free you, cetera, et But no, you're not going to be free, is the juxtaposition. And that metaphor, that'll keep coming back.

Matt (43:51)
Yeah, but he said.

Yes, but he says if they give him Sammy, whose skills can summon the spirits of his lost community or bring back whatever his. He also tells them that Hogwarts Hogwarts, the guy that they bought the sawmill from, heads the local. He's a Klansman. He's a grand dragon, right? And he's going to attack the place at dawn because Bert is his son,

Tug McTighe (43:58)
Right. Right.

is in fact a Klansman, yeah.

All right, so, and of course they don't let him in. Remix says, I will go get Grace Chow because Bo has been turned so he knows everything Bo knows.

Matt (44:21)
But he also

speaks Chinese. So you're right. He does. He's gotten all the knowledge that all these people have. He gets once he turned them. I thought that

Tug McTighe (44:25)
Yes.

So now we're right, we're

mixing in the, Reverend mothers from Dune who know everything that the other mother Reverend mothers know. So anyway, so.

Matt (44:36)
That's right.

Tug McTighe (44:38)
Again, you loved that part where they were all singing and dancing that iris song And again kugler has mentioned over and over in these interviews I see these similarities in the way black sharecroppers and white iris workers were treated You know again you're you're We're neither one of us is sure Yes, he's a vampire for sure. But is he a demon? Is he the devil himself? It's it's it's all

jumbled up and in a good way, I think not a not a Telegraphed way. It's like you kind of decide kind of way

Matt (45:10)
Right. My brother Alex, who thinks about this stuff a lot, he's a very good Catholic boy. He told me once he saw proof of Satan's existence in the attractiveness of sin, how we see something that we shouldn't do, that we know is bad and we just want to do it. So I think when Remix suggests Christianity came and destroyed his belief system, I think you're right. It was his pagan belief system that was taken away.

Tug McTighe (45:32)
correct, correct. His pre right his pre Christian, whatever they believe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So in the in the early 19th and 20th centuries, Irish immigrants in America faced terrific discrimination. And I did when I was doing my research, labeled often labeled as black, or Negroes turned inside out.

Matt (45:36)
Yeah, so when you talk about the Celts,

Tug McTighe (45:55)
which is just really fucking racist and disgusting. But this was like connecting them to this low social status and at times, again, marginalizing them alongside African Americans. So this idea is also explored in, are you sitting down? Mel Brooks's Blazing Saddles. When the railroad workers of Rock Ridge, or the railroad workers come to help the citizens of Rock Ridge fight off Headley Lamar, they're like, all right, we'll take the Chinese,

We'll take the Africans, we'll take the blacks, we'll take the Italians, but we don't want the Irish. then, no deal. And he goes, prairie shit, everybody. My sheriff Bart says no deal, but it's just, again, so when you start to unpack why this guy's Irish, Kugler surely was studying this and learning about it and making these connections. I thought that was fascinating once I did a deeper dive.

Matt (46:25)
That's right, Sheriff Barton says no deal. Okay, everybody.

Yep. So Grace is enraged because they've said they're going to go to town and just murder her daughter. So she says, come on in, MFs. And that's their invitation.

Tug McTighe (46:54)
She said, come in motherfuckers. So right away she gets the

rewatchables, a Butch's girlfriend award for the weak link of the film by bringing the vampires in. You're like, all we have to do is wait until dawn. It's two hours away. Good Lord. ⁓ smoke. Yeah, big, big set piece between smoke and stack.

Matt (47:05)
Right.

And everybody's like, why did you do this? ⁓ my gosh. And then you get a pretty good fight sequence.

Tug McTighe (47:19)
Once again, if you thought the cigarette rolling was flawless, this is the same guy playing two guys fighting. If there's an Oscar for best stand-ins, these guys should get it. So they have a big fight and he's about to kill, stack, but we don't see him kill stack. We were led to believe he kills that we do not see it.

Matt (47:36)
Right, because the next time we see him is when a steak gets stabbed through the chest of Remic who's out in the lake. Yeah.

Tug McTighe (47:44)
the chest out out out yes out out in

the out of the pasture there. Yeah.

Matt (47:49)
He's in the lake with Sammy right in the pond, so there's a kind of a baptism scene, right?

Tug McTighe (47:51)
Correct.

my God, of course I lean over Sean. go, that was the baptism. Watch out. Yeah. By the way, hold on, Matt, if you ever fucking ask me again, if somebody's head gets dipped into water in a movie at a pivotal moment, yes, it's a baptism. So PS said it misses PSA. Yes. I said that exact thing to Sean. Hey, if they also, if somebody runs outside at a terrible part of their life, when

Matt (47:56)
And there's just so many things.

Okay, well that's for our listeners at home.

Tug McTighe (48:17)
when all is lost at the all is lost moment, and it starts raining. That's a baptism also. So you know, they're going to get reborn into the next thing. But they did it for sure. And purposeful. None of it was accidental. What's that, Matt? baptism. That's correct.

Matt (48:25)
Right. But with the time he's about to-

Sammy's baptism, right?

Okay. So Robin and I thought the sun rose pretty quick here, cause it seemed like the moon was up and then it's like two minutes later.

Tug McTighe (48:37)
Yeah, yeah, it was like below the

trees and then

Matt (48:42)
Okay, so Sammy starts reciting the Lord's Prayer and he thinks it's going to save him, but Remick and everybody else joins in it too, which is very biblical in Book of Matthew when Satan tries to tempt Jesus. He uses scripture against him and Jesus says, you know, get away Satan.

Tug McTighe (48:56)
That's correct. That's correct. So this

is another connection back to Ireland map. Again, like I said, ostensibly when the Christians came to convert to Celts, which by my research was about fifth century AD. So that makes Remick pretty old. If Remick was there in Ireland and was a Celtic pagan and then the Christians came the first time, yeah, he's pretty old.

Which again, I think about this a lot in vampire movies. I'm like, God damn. 1500 years old, man, aren't you, you're over it, aren't you? You just want to go. Yeah. So anyway, um, so smoke sent Sammy home, uh, cause everybody's it's suns up. All the vampires are dead. They burned up.

Matt (49:25)
I think so.

Yes, the sun rose and they just burst into flames.

Tug McTighe (49:39)
smoke Sammy his guitar is broken cuz he Fucking hit Remick in the head with it and that metal disc Dobro cut his head in half and half is really good scene So smoke sent Sammy home and he drags these boxes out these wooden boxes out of his truck and he opens them up

Matt (49:56)
He's back at the sawmill.

Tug McTighe (49:57)
back at the yeah, he's back at the yeah back at the sawmill he opens them up and I'm gonna let you know Tarantino must have taken over for five minutes because this turns into a gigantic shootout where the war hero smoke is mowing down the clan members and PS chefs kiss They deserved every bullet they got Yeah

Matt (50:22)
Yeah, I no problem with that.

But that was they'd mentioned multiple times that they were soldiers.

Tug McTighe (50:27)
that everybody knew they were in. Yes, they served their country in World War I. That's right.

Matt (50:31)
Right. And I

say back, they're back at the sawmill. They were always at the sawmill. They were at the juke joint. So, but yeah, all these clan guys show up thinking they're just gonna, they're gonna kill everybody there, which.

Tug McTighe (50:36)
That was all, yeah, that was the play, yeah. They were in the morning because they were gonna burn it out, yeah.

Yeah. And

this, and this part is Annie, Annie says to smoke. If something, if I get bit, you kill me before I turn. Cause I can't turn into one of these undead demons and he does. And everybody's, you know, that's when, Mary and stack are there, they want Mary and stack. Now vampires want smoke and Annie to come with them and be vampires and be together forever. I mean, he kills her promising her.

And at the very beginning of the movie, when he comes home, he puts flowers by a little grave outside of Annie's house. And it's Annie's and his dead infant daughter. And then we see Annie nursing when he's about to die and he's killed the Klansman. He's about to die. He sees her nursing says, put that cigarette out and I'll let you hold her. And then he kills the Klansman and then he goes with her to heaven.

Matt (51:29)
So that was nice.

Tug McTighe (51:30)
It was nice.

Matt (51:30)
And then we come back to full circle. We're back at the beginning of the movie. Yeah, and Sammy walks into the church and he's holding the guitar and his father tells him to drop it. You know, literally and figuratively just be done. Drop, drop the part of the guitar you have, but also just be done. And we pan on pan in on him gripping that broken neck of the guitar and then cut. I think a lesser filmmaker would have tried to shoehorn in some kind of monologue or have him say something.

Tug McTighe (51:32)
same scene we had at beginning,

repent.

This is show don't tell We know that he's not gonna drop it. I Don't need him proselytizing about why and why not we know by now Right, we know by now why he's not gonna repent So now Matt you just turned it off now

You just turn the movie off now.

Matt (52:11)
I did!

Tug McTighe (52:12)
Yeah, so mad just so the written and directed by Ryan Coogan amounts like boy that was great.

Matt (52:17)
Yeah, the first time I watched this, I was like, well, I guess that's I guess that's the end. So.

Tug McTighe (52:21)
Tell the people how you fouled up, Matt.

Matt (52:23)
because there's like 10 minutes left in the movie.

Tug McTighe (52:25)
There's a

giant important 10 minute sequence coming up.

Matt (52:28)
I'm my said yeah, like when they showed up at the end. was like we showed up at the end. Alright, so in 1992 fast forward.

Tug McTighe (52:32)
You're like, what? Hold on, what?

So yeah, in

a mid credit sequence.

Matt (52:41)
Yes, fast forward 60 and it is their fault for running the credits. It's like Ryan Coogler film like damage. So 60 years hence Sammy now elderly and looking very much like Buddy Guy. Who in his as he was? Is this successful? Yes, he has a big claw mark scar on his face. He's now a successful blues musician. He's playing in a club and I don't remember what's it called. ⁓ really?

Tug McTighe (52:45)
I could not agree more. We'll talk about it a sec.

He has the claws on his face.

What's the club called?

Perolines.

Yep. Yes, it is place.

Matt (53:07)
must be his place.

And stack and Mary show up looking very much like the time.

Tug McTighe (53:13)
High 90s,

high in living color. 92, yes. She's wearing like the leather jacket and the running shorts with the crop top and the round. Yeah, it's high 90s. Baby, baby, it's high 90s, yeah.

Matt (53:16)
Yes, very much so with the high top eight and their circle.

He's got the Dwayne Wayne glasses from.

my gosh, so that was great. And so they show up at his club. He reveals stack reveals that smoke spared him at the joint on the condition that he let Sammy live in peace and he's on. now that he's released from the control of Merrick, he can have a little more agency.

Tug McTighe (53:39)
Right.

They're just

right. They're just their empires. They're immortal now, but they're they don't have to Right. There's no high mind controller. That's how I took it

Matt (53:52)
Did

they live on blood? Did they drink blood? All right. I wondered about that. Like you'd think people would know about. yeah, there's these string of ex sanguineations all over the country. Somebody's going around drinking people's blood.

Tug McTighe (53:54)
100 % yeah

You know,

man, think that's that's a plot hole we're willing to overlook in a lot of vampire movies.

Matt (54:09)
That's true. I'll let it go. ⁓

Tug McTighe (54:11)
But

you're right.

Matt (54:12)
but they offer him immortality.

Tug McTighe (54:15)
Hey, thanks for nothing, I'm fucking 90.

Matt (54:16)
Pretty much like that's what I'm thinking too. Sammy says that and he's not afraid of him, which I thought was pretty cool. He said that despite that night up until every all the shit went down, it was like the best day of his life. ⁓ And stacker grease.

Tug McTighe (54:22)
No, he's not.

And they agree. Mary and Zach

agree. And I love, he says, last time I saw smoke, last time I saw the sun and it was the only time we were ever truly free. Cause they are slaves now.

Matt (54:44)
Yes, but just for a few hours, they were running their own show. They were doing what they wanted to do. Nobody could tell them what to do.

Tug McTighe (54:44)
They can't go on the side.

just for a few hours, which I just got the chills

actually. And when you talk about it that way, you're like, wow, this is a really important idea for a black filmmaker to create this world where this is his thesis statement, largely black actors. That was the only time we were, Fred, it's really great.

Matt (55:06)
thought it was great. And again, back to Remick, the freedom that he offered wasn't freedom at all. We know that now. And even Stack offering an eternity of freedom to Sammy at the end, he'd seem pretty half-hearted. He didn't press him on it. Sammy said, no thanks. He's like, all right, that's cool. like I had to, but I don't blame him.

Tug McTighe (55:18)
Sammy, your boy, baby. Preach your boy.

No, for sure. And, and I love that stroke and stack had such

a relationship and such a, such a bond that even as a vampire, when, when, when he said, you got to leave Samuel, I won't kill you. Got to leave Samuel alone. And he left him alone for how long? About 70 years. Again, very, for me, very satisfying, glad I stuck around for it. Unlike some people.

⁓ That being said, why do you think this was a mid credits? Couldn't we just have gone? And again, I'm not a filmmaker, but to your point, you show him holding on to the broken guitar neck. You cut to black, you wait five seconds. You don't even have to put a title card up. You wait five seconds and you cut to that scene. either way, I'm glad we both saw it. It was a really satisfying ending and

Matt (56:03)
I have no idea.

Tug McTighe (56:09)
Again, I don't know why we stuck it in the credit sequence, but speaking of credit sequences In sinners, everybody's got a past bad choices questionable alliances Maybe even a few literal demons chasing them down And honestly if your brand's marketing looks like it made some bad choices, too Our friends at little bird graphics are here to drive a stake through the heart of your evil marketing materials They build killer websites slick logos brand and merch social ads the whole salvation package So if your current logo or advertising looks like it crawled out of the underworld of the 1930s

Maybe it's time to repent and redesign. Go to littlebear.gravits and check out Matt's work. Then let them turn your marketing sins into something a lot better and less bloodthirsty. Look, the sun's rising over Little Bear. Let's go!

Matt (56:48)
Okay, what do we think?

Tug McTighe (56:49)
You like

how I turned credit sequence into everybody's got a past because that's good transitioning.

Matt (56:56)
I did. I feel like we should do an episode where we just cut together all the little bear spots.

Tug McTighe (56:59)
Just

here's your here's our clip show. Bang, bang, bang, bang.

Matt (57:02)
Here's 40 little bear spots. Which one do you like best? All right, closing thoughts, buddy. What do you think?

Tug McTighe (57:07)
Well, I loved it. I loved how it looked. I loved the performances. I loved the music. Everything beautifully made. I hope Kugel wins some Oscars. I think he will. it's of note, Matt, I looked this up, only seven black directors have ever been nominated for best director. John Singleton, Lee Daniels, Barry Jenkins, Jordan Peele, Spike Lee, Steve McQueen, and Ryan Coogler. Two films directed by black directors of One Best Picture, 12 Years a Slave, directed by Steve McQueen.

and Moonlight directed by Barry Jenkins. And other wins of note, Jordan Peele became the first black person to win best original screenplay for Get Out. So I think Google is going to win a couple Oscars for this ⁓ and well deserved. Yeah.

Matt (57:42)
I hope so.

That's a different Steve McQueen, right? Steve McQueen from Papillon, which I love that. I thought it was great and it's one of the few movies. I don't always say you should watch this twice, but I think you get a lot more out of it the second time you the first time you get caught up in the story. The second time you can appreciate the details and the costuming and the cinematography. Quick side note.

Tug McTighe (57:46)
Yes, it's not the Stephen Quaker picking up. It's not. It is not.

Matt (58:08)
I've been seeing a lot of this garbage show up on social media where it's like, you know, AI did this in one prompt and Hollywood's totally cooked. It's not the same. They don't know how to frame a shot. They don't know how to do any of these things. ⁓ I don't know. I definitely was glad I saw it twice.

Tug McTighe (58:17)
Cut the fuck out. Yeah.

No. No.

Yeah, Sean said the same thing. He goes, Hey, what are you doing sinners? And I go, well, this week, and he goes, well, just tell me when you're watching it. Cause I really want to watch it again. Cause he goes, I just want to see what I didn't see. And there's a lot to see what you didn't see.

Matt (58:41)
All right, see you in hit, see in a miss.

Tug McTighe (58:41)
All right, well, yeah,

I definitely got to watch it again. There's so much to unpack. I got the beats down now and I know what it is. And I love a movie, Matt, that's sad and funny and horrifying, just like real life. And this was all those things. What about you?

Matt (58:54)
Yeah,

I'm cougars and outdoor. I appreciate that. He elevates the art. It's not like when we were kids and they just cranked out movies and a lot of them were just terrible. I mean, I suppose they still do, but I look forward to many, many more excellent films by this guy. He's not even 40 years old. Yeah, he's going to be I'll be dead, but when he'll still be making movies so. ⁓

Tug McTighe (59:09)
incredible.

When I saw when

I did all that research on the Irish connection and saw those interviews with him. Yeah, man. He's a cool dude, too.

Matt (59:18)
Yeah, so it's gonna hit for me for sure.

Tug McTighe (59:20)
Yeah. All right. Thanks again, everyone, for listening to Cinemisses. If you like what we're doing here, please help us grow the show by subscribing, sharing some episodes, or writing a review. It really does help. And even better, tell someone you think might like it to give us a try. We want to hear from you. Follow and comment on socials. And please drop us a line at cinemisses at gmail.com with ideas to make the show better and recos for movies we may want to cover.

Matt.

Matt (59:41)
What?

Tug McTighe (59:41)
What is our next cinema miss? And what does our cinema mister think he knows?

Matt (59:45)
We were going to do no country for old men. ⁓

Tug McTighe (59:48)
Will that be our first Coen

Brothers picture?

Matt (59:50)
I think it might. I think you're right. So I know not much about it. Is this is Javier Bardem in this?

Tug McTighe (59:50)
I believe so. All right.

Yep, Javier Bardem plays Louis. I think it's Louis Shagur really bad dude.

Matt (1:00:01)
Yeah, I feel like he's just a scary guy and beyond that I don't know anything about it. ⁓

Tug McTighe (1:00:04)
very

All right,

well, you're going to we did weapons. Featuring it probably too old for his son, Josh Brolin, but Josh Brolin is in this and he's exactly the right age for this. Yeah, Colin brothers sort of a of a nouveau western.

Matt (1:00:17)
Perfect. All right, well, can we see it? ⁓

Interesting, well, always, their work's always interesting. all right, well, ⁓ that's it. Thanks for joining us. I'm Matt.

Tug McTighe (1:00:25)
Always.

I'm Tug, that was a wrap. Thanks buddy for fighting through the sickness. was a fun combo.

Matt (1:00:34)
It was.