111 - The 3 Secrets That’ll Turn Any Law Firm Owner Into A Rainmaker

Steve is a driven, focused, and passionate about helping law firm owners and partners to reach their full potential. Steve Fretzin is regarded as the premier coach, skills trainer, and roundtable facilitator on business development for law firm owners.

Over the past 17 years, Steve Fretzin has devoted his career to helping lawyers master the art of business development to achieve their business goals and the peace of mind that comes with developing a successful law practice.

In addition to writing four books on legal marketing and business development, Steve has a highly-rated podcast, BE THAT LAWYER, which is findable on our website, and Above the Law, where he also writes a monthly column.

In this episode, we break down three secret elements that law firm owners need to learn in order to become true rainmakers.

To find out more about Steve and his programs:

Website: www.fretzin.com

Podcast: www.fretzin.com/podcast

Above the Law (online publication, big in the US): https://abovethelaw.com/tag/steve-fretzin/

About Dan:
Dan provides law firm owners with the skills and capital investment to increase their profits while reducing their workload. Over the last five years, Dan’s clients have grown their revenues from 20% to 392% in one year while more than halving their workload.

To find out about Dan's availability and programs, click here: 

Proudly edited with finesse by Mike at Making Digital Real ✨

Transcript

[Speaker 1]
Welcome to the Law Firm Owners Podcast. I am your host, Dan Warburton. If you are a law firm equity member, partner, CEO or MD who wants to increase your profits while reducing your workload, then you are in the right place.

[Speaker 2]
It's the skills that I needed to become a leader.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. I'm so happy that I've met you in my life. You've spoken about the revenue increase.

It went from like 70,000 to nearly half a million. What percentage increase is that? It's over 400% in that range.

[Speaker 2]
You know, our monetary returns have been insane. And what we have made in extra profit as compared to what we spent on you is incomparable.

[Speaker 1]
You've just trebled the firm's profits in one year. Yeah. Are you getting what I'm saying?

After working with Dan for a few months, my income is up. My happiness is up. This has changed my whole life.

Welcome to the Law Firm Owners Podcast with your host. That's me, Dan Warburton. I've got a gentleman here that I cannot wait to learn from.

His name is Steve Fretzin. He is driven, he's focused, and he's passionate about helping attorneys, or for us, lawyers and law firm owners, reach their full potential. Steve is regarded as the premier coach, skills trainer and roundtable facilitator on business development for attorneys.

Again, for us, lawyers, law firm owners. And over the last 17 years, he's devoted his career to helping lawyers master the art of business development to achieve their business goals and peace of mind that comes with developing a successful law practice. In addition to writing four books on legal marketing and business development, Steve is a highly rated podcast host of Be That Lawyer.

So I'll have notes, a link to that in the notes for this, so you've got to go and check that out. It's great. And on today's episode, what we're doing is we're covering the three secrets that will turn any law firm owner into a serious rainmaker.

Steve, it's brilliant to have you here. Yeah, thank you, Dan. I'm so happy to be on your show.

I know you've been on mine a few times, and so it's nice to come on board yours. Yes, it's funny. As Steve Jobs says, you can never connect the dots looking forwards.

You can only ever connect them looking backwards. Okay, there you go. Have you never heard that before?

I have not heard that, no. That's not one that I ask, actually, on my podcast for quotes of the show. No one's ever said that before.

Oh, wow. Yeah, it's like when you're in business and growing a business, you can only have a vague idea of which way you're going and how you're going to get there. You can never really know and plan what you're doing and why you're doing it.

But years down the road, you then realize, hang on a minute, I built this up, and that taught me this, and what I learned there made that possible, that gave me that connection, which made me hope in so on and so on. So you can't see the journey looking forward. You can only see the journey looking backwards.

Yeah. But we also have to focus on looking forwards and making tough decisions and pushing ourselves. And I know there are some people that learn from the past, and there's other people that just complain about the past.

I used to look at that quote, but I get that, you know, I look, I never would have been in the lawyer business development coaching business had I not met a coach myself, and I never would have met that coach myself had I not been introduced through this, that, and the other. So, yeah, the dots get connected very quickly. Yeah, yeah, that's it.

Well, look, I'm really keen to have you here. I know I'm going to learn a lot, you know, and one of the things that I hear a lot of lawyers, law firm owners struggle with, especially the early stages is, how do I get clients? How do I get enough business?

How do I do it? And then the next phase is, they get too many clients, they get too busy, and then there's that whole growth challenges going from there, and as you know, my whole thing is delegate, delegate your work, let it create space going forwards. But bringing it back to your speciality, rainmaking, what would you say is the first thing that a law firm owner needs to overcome to get good at rainmaking and creating those dream clients?

I think the first thing would be to understand that it has become a part of the practice of law, that just, you know, being a member at a firm or running your own firm and knowing that you're a great lawyer is a big part of it, but that's not the only part of it, that there are elements of operations, technology, sales, marketing, networking, relationships, client retention, you know, process and procedure that needs to also be learned. So I would say it's become a student of the game of the business of law as opposed to just being a great lawyer, which by the way, you can be a great lawyer and you can get through your entire career unscathed, but I think that's more unusual than it used to be if we go back, you know, 20 to 30 years.

I think today, you have to understand, look, you know, where's my next client coming from? How am I going to generate business today and tomorrow and how am I going to brand myself so people think of me when they run into a matter or a client that could use my services? So it's really that element of learning and understanding that this is a big part of the practice of law today.

Okay, so break it down. What is this first thing that lawyers need to basically overcome to start creating those amazing clients? I think it's identification of the gaps and this sometimes takes a professional like yourself or myself to sit down and understand what someone's really strong at doing and where they can shine and where their gaps may be and the gaps that exist could be a lack of planning, of a written plan of how you're going to approach the market.

How are you going to leverage yourself? Doing a basic SWOT analysis, which is strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, threats. It's a basic marketing analysis.

Evaluating where the low-hanging fruit would be, where you need to spend your time, how you need to spend your time, with whom, and how you're going to actually behave and participate and get traction. And these are all things that, as I said before, lawyers don't know. And so buying books, listening to podcasts, videos on YouTube, like absorb any and all information that you can, that's going to help you start learning that side of it.

Because if you just say, hey, lawyer, sit down and write a plan, that plan is not going to look like a plan, for example, that I would help someone with. So, you know, I think that's where that first step is just identification of gaps and understanding where you need to invest time and energy to learn and fill those gaps. Yeah, great.

So what I'm hearing here is determine the gap that you need to close. Like you haven't got clients right now, so you got to work out why. Why haven't you?

And what actions can you take to start creating those clients? And one thing that you said really stood out for me is what's the low-hanging fruit? You know, what's those opportunities?

What would you say is usually the low-hanging fruit for creating new business opportunities for a law firm owner? I would say, yeah, that's a great question. And there's usually two or three that stand at the top of all others because the idea that you need to start writing or speaking or going out and networking, those take time and those are high apples on the top of the tree.

If we think about who do we already have in our network? Who did we go to high school, college with, undergrad, law school? Did we keep relationships up with them?

If not, can we rebuild them? What jobs have we had in our lifetime? Who worked there?

Who could help advance us in that direction? I'm a part of a temple. I'm a part of a church.

I'm a part of a private club. Where are people that I already know that trust me and like me already that I could spend time with? Maybe I've already developed 20, 30, 40 clients and I'm not really leveraging them for introductions to new strategic partners, referral partners, or new clients.

It's really about focusing on the people that already know you and like you and trust you and leveraging that. Now, how do you leverage that? That might lead into another step that we talk about but ultimately, getting a list together of all of these relationships that you've scraped together through your lifetime, whether you haven't talked to them in 10 years or you spoke to them 10 minutes ago, you can create a list that will help you start to realize, hey, I have something here or geez, I'm new to this area.

I don't know anybody and I've got to start from nothing, in which case, there may be no low-hanging fruit. Yeah. I'm loving this.

It seems so obvious, you know, and you're right. You start thinking about, oh, going out and networking to really awkward events where you don't know anyone or speaking at events or writing a big blog piece or whatever else but no, it's much, much more simple than that. Who do you already know who's likely to know others who are going to need the services that you offer?

It's that simple and you've already got the ice broken because you already know them so it's quite easy to go and meet them, take them out for lunch, pick up the phone to them or just text them, right? Well, let's take it a step back because where we might think it's easy for you and I, for lawyers that are just getting started, putting a list together is, you know, it's challenging. They don't know who should be on the list.

They don't know, you know, who would qualify for, you know, they'd be terrified of, like if I had to call someone I haven't talked to in 10 years that's now the CEO of a company and say, hey, I haven't talked to you in 10 years but I now have my own law practice and I need you to throw me business. Now, no one's going to say that, I don't think. Not many people are going to say that but that may be what a lawyer has in his or her mind that could be intimidating and may cause them to get analysis paralysis where they have all these great names but they're afraid to email them, they're afraid to reach out.

It's scary because I don't know what to do, I don't know what to say, I don't know how to approach it. So, I think, I think on one hand it's easy to say, hey, I can put a list of people together but I think it's much more challenging for lawyers to, for them to know, hey, how do I actually go after and how do I do it in a way that doesn't make me feel icky or salesy or gross. Got it, got it.

Okay, so number one is define the gap. What are the gaps you do need to close before you start creating those clients? Ideally define that low-hanging fruit and then how do they overcome now that they've defined that low-hanging fruit to actually take action to make that happen?

Well, we're going to go back to our old faithful of become a student of the game because the steps and the process and the language, it's all available. I teach it every day so it's available through coaching but it's also available through my books, it's available through, you know, things that you might pick up. So just as an example, you go to my blog on my website and I'll, you know, provide the link but you can type in a keyword like, like, you know, questions to ask or you could type in something that, you know, that represents the area of how do I approach decision makers.

Whatever it might be and you could do that on the internet too but generally the idea is that that there are steps and language that you can learn and follow that will make something that's highly uncomfortable more comfortable and even then it may not be fully comfortable because you still have to do it and get the words out and send out that email but I think if you can get an email script together that you can be comfortable to say, hey, I know we haven't spoken in like 10 years, it's all on me, I feel terrible, I know we had so much fun at the university together going out and getting stupid together, whatever it might be but I'm in my own practice, I'd love to get some advice from you, I see that you're a successful CEO, when can we get together? Here are 3-4 dates that work for me, I'd love to come, I'll come to your office, whatever, just to get on your schedule for a few minutes would be amazing. That email sets up not that I want to meet you with you to sell you something but I want to meet with you because I've been neglectful, I'm taking responsibility for that even though it's a two-way street, still take responsibility and saying, hey, I'd like to meet with you to get your advice, that's much more easy for someone to take that meeting than saying, hey, I have my own law practice, I need business, I need you to send me stuff and again, that's just incredibly uncomfortable and most people would never have the moxie or the guts or whatever to handle something that way and it would turn people off anyway.

Got it. So, I'm hearing here the second tip is to reach out to these people in a manner that suits the past relationship you have with that individual and if that means being tactful and even saying that you're reaching out to catch up on an old relationship and for advice. I mean, who doesn't like to be approached being asked for advice, right?

I think that's brilliant. You know, you're coming across humble and you're coming across complimentary and it's not fake like this person does know a lot more than you potentially so, you know, why not meet with a general counsel, a CEO, another lawyer that may be able to throw business your way and ask for advice and ask for help and say, look, this is a new part. I've got, you know, 10 years of top-notch legal experience.

I've been on my own for a month and I would love to hear how you're doing it. I'd love to hear what makes you tick and why you're so successful. I'm hard-pressed to find someone that wouldn't want to meet with someone with that request.

Yeah, nice. I really like that. I really like that.

And as you say, for me and you, it might be straightforward because we're kind of, you know, up front. Yeah, you can call me and say, I need you to introduce me to so-and-so and I'm going to jump on it right away and I feel like I could do the same. So, I think there are relationships where you could say, hey, jackass or whatever, you know, you know, you want to say to someone that you're good friends with, I need this and you know these people and I need you to help me and they would be all over it all day.

And then there's 98% of the other people that, you know, that's not going to work. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

You know, in England, we're not like you guys in America. You're usually much more open and easy to conversation and, you know, starting conversation relations. In England, they tend to be or we tend to be more reserved, you know, and what advice would you give us to becoming a bit more American in how we network?

Well, you think that I'm going to tell you to be more over the top, more outrageous, more straightforward. I actually go the other way. So, the first book I wrote is called Sales Free Selling and the theme of it and everything that I teach lawyers is to not be salesy and to not be aggressive and to not do things that are going to turn anyone off.

So, when I give an approach like being self-deprecating and being apologetic and being humble and asking for permission and advice, these are all things I think that, you know, people in the UK could lean into because it isn't what you might think all Americans are like and many are, you know, aggressive and pushy and all that. I take the complete opposite approach which is why I think this would work so well, you know, for everybody but introverted attorneys and people who are incredibly polite would want to have more of a sales-free methodology and approach to how they do business development because it's going to fit their personality or in this case, fit the culture better than any kind of traditional approaches which might be more aggressive.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I love it.

I love the idea of sales-free selling which is getting into conversation with people without leaving people with a feeling they're being sold to as such. Yeah. Yeah, I hate it.

I've been in sales for since I'm 16 years old so we're coming up on, you know, I'm going to say close to 40 years that I've been in sales and I never enjoyed selling somebody something that wasn't a perfect fit, right? Yeah. I'd rather walk a buyer through a buying decision for a mutually beneficial win-win outcome and that's not how people have made money in sales for all these years.

It's been, you know, jamming a square peg in a round hole and pushing until it goes through and nobody likes that. It's not the future. It's not what's happening now and it's not the future of anyone that's going to want to buy from someone that's aggressive and overtly salesy.

Yeah, absolutely. I very much follow your ethos. Just keep giving and giving and giving and then the right people will turn around and then say, I want more of this.

I want to start paying you for it. Yes and no. I think that there's a philosophy out there of givers gain and give till it hurts and don't stop giving and it'll come back to you and what I've found is that that's generally true.

However, what I also experienced myself and found I had to change and now teach is give but give with intelligence. So, for example, let's say that I'm an estate planning attorney or estate planning lawyer and there's a financial advisor that I'm looking to partner with and I'm giving to that financial advisor multiple clients, okay, and they're getting all this business and I'm helping them and coaching them to reciprocate and feed me business back because that's the relationship that would make the most sense long-term and the person either refuses to help me or isn't organized enough or doesn't have the capabilities or interest in helping me.

Maybe they're feeding someone else and they just think because they're so great at financial advising that they should get this business from me. How much more am I going to give this person without seeing a return in that reciprocation in, you know, in me trying to generate business for my law practice in this hypothetical scenario I just made up. So, I think we have to give but we're giving because it's the right thing to do but we also want to give intelligently which means we're testing the waters.

So, I'm giving a good client to you, Dan, and I'm not, you know, sitting here waiting and waiting and waiting like, you know, conniving to see when you return but if you ask me, Steve, how can I help you and I'm explaining to you and you come up with a name of a lawyer who you feel would be really terrific for me and make that quality introduction and I actually get a meeting out of it that's going to give me a lot more energy to want to continue to give to you versus someone else who might do something similar.

And lawyers can learn a lot from that because ultimately there's an 80-20 rule here that will apply the Pareto Principle where if you can spend 80% of your time building a network of 20% then spend 80% of your time with the 20%. So, you don't have to be out there networking and meeting millions of people once you've developed strong strategic referral partners that get you and refer you and you can refer invest more of your time in them and you don't have to spend as much time out in the field trying to meet new people. Yeah, nice.

Love it. Love it. So, define the gap.

See where the gaps are and why you're not selling. Look for that low-hanging fruit. Go for that.

Number two, reach out consciously with care with the right method depending on the relationship you have with that individual. And then the third one here it's how would you sum it up? I would say that it's give but give with intelligence.

Give with intelligence. And develop and develop develop strong strategic partnerships. People that have the same client base as you but do something different or maybe they do the same thing as you but they are conflicted out of matters and business on a regular basis.

There's a whole process I teach to be an effective networker and how to give and how to receive how to maintain and sustain and develop loyalty and I can't get through all of it in this podcast but I want to give the general theme which is to your point be a giver but also be intelligent about it and think about who you're giving to why you're giving to them how is it coming back to you in spades and if something isn't how do we end that relationship nicely stay friends and move on to someone who's going to be more giving to you and helping you develop your business. Yeah, reciprocate in other words. The reciprocation, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I mean when I said just keep giving I was thinking more like you know if you had the energy to and the capacity to have a podcast be giving that away which me and you have have a blog which me and you have we keep giving that away. I also Well, giving, yeah giving content yeah, 100% give, give, give and but I thought you know, again I went down a whole different rabbit hole there for you but I think it's still a good rabbit hole because there are people who yeah, there are people who just think that if you just go out there and help everybody I mean, I did that I was connecting everyone I met with with three people two to three people and I was doing that four or five times a day I mean, we're talking about 12, 15 introductions a day that I was making and I was spending my entire time and it definitely worked to a degree but I look back and I shake my head I go it's a good thing I had nothing else to do because that was a full-time job you know, today actually you know, I'm very busy so it's like I have to be very careful and specific with who I meet with and also who I give and how I give and how I invest time in that yeah, and and the thing I found is really one of the reasons behind referring our connections to somebody else is to see in how they might reciprocate and if they do at all and there's a lot of times like you found it you've done quite a lot for somebody you've made a lot of introductions you've given them a lot of your time away insights, whatever else and you just get absolutely nothing back from them at all nothing but you won't know that you won't be able to find the right people to have as a referral partner until you keep doing that and then what starts to surface is those few people that do reciprocate back that do give referrals back and then that's the beginning of what can be an amazing relationship yeah I'm going to throw however in there and that is that there are people that have the capacity and interest in referring and helping they may just need a little bit of coaching and guidance okay they may not understand who your buyer persona is they may not understand what's the situation that's going down where you would be of value right so just as another example back to estate planning lawyers parents going on trips without their kids and the idea that if something happened to those parents what would happen to the kids and how would they be handled there's no will or estate in place right so I know like in the U.S. well the government's going to step in and they're going to assign someone to it and there could be an absolute free for all for the kids and the money and everything and it's going to be a messy messy scenario but putting that image or putting that idea in people's heads might say you know what I'm about to go on a trip with my wife and we don't have that in place and maybe we should talk so now but ultimately I think people need to help others help you if they're not knowledgeable or expertise enough expert enough to figure it out on their own I think some people are coachable and need it yeah got it so yeah we need to make sure that the people are clear on what kind of ideal connections we want referred back to us as such but I guess even when they're clear on that and they're aware of that and we've invested a lot of that relationship in them if they're still not referring people back our way then we need to be putting our energy into those relationships with others that do right yeah so it's a little bit like I'm a scout for the Premier League okay and I'm scouting for you know we can pick our favourite team you know everyone I talk to has got a different favourite team but you know let's say that we're trying to rebuild the Spurs okay and so I'm out on the street trying to find great players you know we need to replace players that are aging out we need to replace players that are injured we need to replace players who are not performing and so I want you to think of your network in a similar way that even though you have a great you know you know full back or you have a great you know centre back whatever it might be that we need to continue to explore new people that might be good replacements for people that that maybe aren't holding up their end of the bargain yeah brilliant brilliant I've got a referral network called the UK Legal Sector Alliance and it's it's 10 of us and we're all suppliers to the legal sector so we've all got many ideal clients for each other but I can clearly see a difference between the participation of everyone in the group and I'm not blaming anyone you know some are just too busy or you know or the way they work they don't even get into conversation with the ideal person in each firm to be able to introduce me to them you know so it's it's different with everyone everywhere right it is and there's going to be you know back to the 80-20 rule there's going to be you know 2 out of 10 that are going to over perform and that are going to be giving out connections and being thanked on a regular basis I run a number of networking groups in the US and it's the same I mean I run a group of 30 there's 4 people that get thanked every single meeting for connections and introductions and business that's done there's another 4 that get thanked once you know every other month and then there's everybody else yeah and again this is why I'm stepping into this group and trying to teach them networking best practices because if you're attending a group and you're not giving and you're not being helpful and adding value for others and then you're sitting there wondering why you're not getting anything in return well that's why it's you get you know back what you put out and people aren't doing it at the level they need to whether it's because they're busy or it's a lack of knowledge how to yeah yeah and you've you've maybe reflect on the participation of everyone now and yeah and to see what what coaching or guidance might they be missing from me towards them and how to participate for each of them to get the most out of the group as well mm-hmm yeah it's ultimately um you know it's a learn skill um how do we connect others I'll give you another great story example so I'm in a group of 30 we do breakouts so now there's 6 of us in a group and we have 20 minutes to basically say who we are what we do you know the typical infomercial yeah and also to share who do we want to meet as far as prospective clients and strategic partners referral partners okay and normally there'd be like 2 of us taking notes and we'll be the ones that kind of do this and there were 4 people who weren't I said everyone here pull out your phone pull out a pad of paper everyone here needs to take notes while everyone is talking and I said at the end of us going through each person we're each going to share who we think would be a good connector so I go through and or let's see the guy to my right goes through and he mentions that great connections for him are CPAs estate planning attorneys and financial advisors okay yeah now everyone has taken notes everyone knows the CPA financial advisor or an estate planning attorney this person now has 3 or 4 connections that are going to be made for him okay so we do this for 20 minutes 16 introductions were created in 20 minutes because we all had the intention of trying to figure out one good connection for each person and we took notes while people were speaking so that it didn't just didn't go through our ears and out and it's gone and I think there's not enough of that going on where either someone isn't saying who they want to meet and why and who good connections are or people aren't listening and taking notes and really being reflective on their networks and who they can bring to the table if both of those need to happen for it to work yeah brilliant I needed to hear this myself today I bought your notepad I mean but even what you're doing Dan in listening and repeating back what I'm saying is so critical to how we take in content and how we really process it and I'll give you a quick example I'm at a restaurant with my wife the waiter comes by and we do what's called a Jewish order I'm not offending any Jewish people here but it's never what's on the menu it's salmon that's made a certain way my wife wants it well done can we get this type of side instead of this kind of side do you know people that order like that?

it's not what's on the menu it's like they keep changing to the way they want it right? that's what we're doing we're just ordering the way we want it okay but there are waiters and waitresses who write it down and repeat it back to ensure that it was taken in properly and there are people who don't and guess what? the people who don't get it wrong we get upset it wasn't the way we wanted they gotta remake it the tip goes down everything falls apart and we can't learn this lesson in networking that we need to do that same thing with people yeah yeah brilliant I know I could keep talking forever to you let's go let's make this three hours come on I'm ready I got a free afternoon so I'm covering that third that third insight there is keep giving but give intelligently to the right people those that really do reciprocate and don't just think that because they're not reciprocating it's because they don't care about you or whatever they might just not understand what it is exactly you're looking for and have a conversation with them and ask them do you know anyone that fits this that needs this or needs this who can you think of? so yeah really really good I've taken a lot just from speaking to you today so I just know that your books and your content would be so useful to any law firm owner that's struggling to create you know that business brilliant yeah that's that's the hope is that the content you know my my deal is that I'm only working with around 20 lawyers I'm international I'm in Israel I'm in Brazil I'm in Saudi Arabia have yet to get my first UK client which I would love to have but I'm only working with 20 lawyers a year the rest of my time is spent podcasting writing books putting out articles like how can I help the industry become smarter and better at this skill that they were so lacking in law school it just wasn't now it's starting to come around a little bit where they're learning a little bit of the business side in law school but mostly not still and my goal is to really help the industry generate you know happier lives through through you know developing the element of clients and relationships that are long lasting so I appreciate you giving me the platform to kind of share my methodologies and thoughts on yeah no it's great yeah there's over a thousand members in the law firm owners club so they get contacted every so often about this podcast and yeah get you out there why not I absolutely love what you do you know and I must say I've experienced an amazing business manner from you the minute I met you you were just so out to serve me and to help me out in any way that you could and you have with connections clubs groups links I mean you know it's amazing it's like it's almost like you've got all the world all the time in the world just for me even though I know that's not the case you're really busy and so that's obviously what you teach and teach people how to come across and to create those amazing relationships you're brilliant at what you do I know it I know it thank you Dan I appreciate that and it's been an absolute pleasure you know here's the dirty little secret I'll share too is when I introduce you into clubs when I introduce you to people in my network and they're getting value from meeting you and from the relationship they're developing with you and the content you're creating it makes me look good so selfishly you know maybe I'm not doing this for everyone at the same level as you Dan because I think I put you kind of way up here but and I think that we both agree we're kind of both at kind of the top of the peak in our respective areas but I appreciate that and yeah I always will make time for you whether you need me for 30 minutes to advise on something or it's collaborating on something or connecting you yeah I'm definitely a sport for that well there you go you heard it here on the Law Firm Owners Podcast if you're struggling with business development building relationships to really take your business to the next level just reach out to Steve I guarantee you you'll get the warmest welcome ever Steve it's been brilliant having you here thanks so much cheers my friend thank you for listening to the Law Firm Owners Podcast with me your host Dan Warburton if you found this useful then join my Law Firm Owners Club which already has over 850 members it's free to join and as a member you'll get my very best episodes exclusive content free training tickets to events I'm speaking at and the opportunity to network and learn from other highly successful Law Firm Owners if you'd like to join this for free find out about working with me or contact me then click the link in the episode description