115 - Consultant Lawyer Versus Law Firm Owner & Which Is Best

In this episode, I got to speak to Isabel Bathurst, the CEO and owner of a Consultancy firm called IB Consulting. She is also a solicitor under the umbrella of Scott Moncrieff, where she practices and has her own cases with a team of lawyers carrying the weight for her.

Her focus is on catastrophic injury cases and fatal accidents, including those with a foreign element.

Isabel is accredited as a senior litigator with APIL, as a high court advocate, and was one of the 14 solicitors representing the bereaved families on the Grenfell Civil Claims and has also represented many claimants in several top news cases globally.

Today’s episode covers being a consultant lawyer versus a law firm owner and what each makes possible for business and lifestyle.

https://www.isabelbathurstconsulting.com/

https://www.scomo.com/our-people/isabel-bathurst.html

https://uk.linkedin.com/in/isabel-bathurst

About Dan:
Dan provides law firm owners with the skills and capital investment to increase their profits while reducing their workload. Over the last five years, Dan’s clients have grown their revenues from 20% to 392% in one year while more than halving their workload.

To find out about Dan's availability and programs, click here: https://www.danwarburton.com/

Proudly edited with finesse by Mike at Making Digital Real ✨

Transcript

Welcome to the Law Firm Owners Podcast. I am your host, Dan Warburton. If you are a law firm equity member, partner, CEO or MD who wants to increase your profits while reducing your workload, then you are in the right place.

It's the skills that I needed to become a leader. Yeah. I'm so happy that I've met you in my life.

You've spoken about the revenue increase. It went from like 70,000 to nearly half a million. What percentage increase is that? It's over 400% in that range.

Our monetary returns have been insane. And what we have made in extra profit as compared to what we spent on you is incomparable. You've just trebled the firm's profits in one year.

Yeah. Are you getting what I'm saying? After working with Dan for a few months, my income is up. My happiness is up.

This has changed my whole life. Welcome to the Law Firm Owners Podcast with your host, that's me, Dan Warburton. I am here with a wonderful lady called Isabel Bathurst.

She is the CEO and owner of a consultancy called IB Consulting and is a solicitor under the umbrella of Scott Moncrief, if I've pronounced that correctly, where she practices as a solicitor and has her own cases with a team of lawyers carrying the weight for her. Her focus is on catastrophic industry cases and fatal accidents, including those with a foreign element. She's accredited as a senior litigator with APIL and is a high court advocate as well as a solicitor.

Isabel was also one of the 14 solicitors representing the bereaved families on the Grenfell civil claims. So those terrible fires that we all heard about and has represented many claimants in several top news cases that are basically worthy of top news around the world globally. And on today's episode, what we're covering is the difference between being a consultant versus being a law firm owner and what each makes possible.

Isabel, it's brilliant to have you here. Oh, it's wonderful to be here. Thank you for having me, Dan.

It's great to see you and to be on your podcast. Yeah, well, the honour's mine, honestly. I'm going to be sitting here learning a lot from you You know, a lot of law firm owners, they know they should be delegating more, that you know is my thing.

I do. I've listened. Yes, as you said, you've listened and you've started to implement it.

What difference has delegating made to your business? Everything. And I think that's really what changed how I practice as a consultant solicitor. So I took on the role as a consultant solicitor when I came out of private practice, but had cases that were referred to me personally.

And I was introduced to the alternative business structure model where you become a consultant with a profit share. But you're on your own and you're running a business. So that's where I set up my consultancy to be able to start to run a business and learn about that.

But all the basic rules of being in a law firm apply when you're a consultant, you've still got to follow all the basic principles. And I was feeling a bit overwhelmed, if I'm honest. A lot of work. 

I was doing everything. I was chief cook and bottle washer, you know, and it starts to get tricky. And, you know, it was really listening to people like, well, you really, about delegation.

And I started putting feelers about, do I want to be a consultant solicitor? How do I do this well? And that's how I literally started building a business within a business or learn who I was. Who am I? What are my skill sets? What do I do? And how do I run that business? My consultancy business well as being a solicitor. And I think, you know, the good thing about being a consultant, I'm not responsible for all the difficult stuff.

That's all the responsibility of Scott Moncrieff, all the compliance, professional indemnity, all of that type of stuff. But trying to do everything else on my own, it just got too much. Okay. 

Okay. So how have you solved that? Well, I did sort of think about what I was doing and I started taking on paralegals, those that were wanting qualified work experience. I really enjoy working with and training younger people because they're often, you know, they know what the law is.

They've just studied it. And they're really enthusiastic, keen to learn. And that's where I started. 

I took on paralegals. The only problem with that is that there's me right at my level of experience, which is a little bit beyond. And you haven't got that company structure that you normally have.

Well, that's it. You see, I'm wondering, how did you manage that being already so stretched with demands to then having others that needed so much support and training? Well, that was the thing. I needed to sort of put in those people in the ranks that support them with me in a more overseeing role.

I needed to learn to step back and delegate. What is it you always say, Dan? And I basically learned what I should have known all the way along is that actually working with other senior solicitors in my team. So I've got now a senior solicitor, trainee paralegal and legal assistant alongside me.

And so I can delegate effectively. I'm not working sort of in the cases in the same way. I'm overseeing.

Yeah. And we are motoring through cases. It's fantastic.

Wow. That's only with the five of us. Amazing.

And I see this time and time again. Law firm owners think that, oh, let me keep costs to a low. Let me just get a paralegal in.

That can help out here and there. But in the end, the main brunt of the work still falls on your shoulders. And the key is to go and find somebody who's, you know, PQE qualified by a few more years that can just take the work and run with it and instantly free up your time to then focus on the bigger vision and everything else.

Exactly. And it took me a while to see it. And I was happy to pay people.

And I did. Sorry. I'll start that again.

I was happy to pay people and employ people and have always had a team. But I hadn't made that jump to go for a senior solicitor in the team. And with the consultancy model, I've got a solicitor who's still working on the same fee sharing basis that I am.

So I don't actually have any employees. They're all contracted. And they all work through the consultancy model by being paid either on a contracted basis.

So my legal assistant is a contracted individual, a virtual assistant. The others are paid through the business. And they get a bonus structure from the outcome of the case at the end.

So I don't even have employees. And I've got five people working with me. OK.

Interesting. Interesting. But you're operating under a consultancy model for another firm.

And then the people that you then have work with you, you then have them on a consultancy model as well. Yes. But interestingly, it was LinkedIn that helped me understand my identity in that.

And I had a LinkedIn advisor who said, well, do you realize that you're invoicing for your payment? So they're, Scott McReefer, effectively my client, even though they provide that structure. And that was a change in emphasis for me as to how I run my business. And, you know, I'm supervised by Lucy.

I work with her incredibly well. She's an amazing support. And me running my business well means that the rest of that business runs well.

Yeah. And we get more cases into the business. And so it just changed the dynamic, usually just understanding who am I, what is my business, and how does it actually operate, and how can I then operate and function with that structure? Yeah.

And of course, that puts you in a position where you can go out and win more clients. Exactly. And that's what I've just been tasked to do by the team.

Can we take on more work? They're, like, so excited. And so, yeah, that's exactly what I'm doing, is opening up the conversation to take on new inquiries. When I thought, no, I'm at capacity, can't take any more, I've tipped that right on its head by literally running the business more effectively with more people delegating and looking at what the structure is and how does it work well.

Yeah. Brilliant. Brilliant.

So break it down. Why would you have others be subcontracted as consultants underneath you rather than employing them? I think I'd be comfortable with either, but with employment comes a lot of responsibility, whereas with being subcontracted, they're also running their own business and building their own cases, so there's more incentive. You've got, they are understanding the business, not just the tasks or the individual elements.

They've got a buy-in. It's like having skin in the game, but in a different way. Okay.

Interesting. Do you not feel that they could go off and go and find work elsewhere as well, and they might end up overwhelmed with workload from somewhere else? That's a concern. Yes, of course, but we have a monthly, we have a weekly meeting where we check in and look at workloads.

And I think because we've got a mutual understanding of how we operate and what our mutual end or aim is, that it's working together to make sure that you're not overloaded. And actually, when you are under an umbrella organisation and your professional identity works through that, you're all working towards ensuring the same objective. Right.

So it really is about listening, getting into the world of each consultant, finding out what they want to succeed at and achieve and creating a real teamwork and collaboration so you both succeed at what matters to each of you. Yes, but a consultant solicitor, someone that's decided to be a consultant solicitor has already got that entrepreneurial mindset. They've stepped out of that being employed environment.

So they are thinking, I need to actually operate in a way that pays me personally, but also pays for what my outlay is. Yeah. So you've already got a tipping point in relation to how that person's thinking anyway.

Yeah. Because you're starting to think as a business owner as opposed to running cases for a profit share, if that makes sense. It's a tipping point on how your mindset works in relation to how you run the business.

Yeah, because as an employee, you expect to be fed, you wait to be fed, you get told what to do. As a consultant lawyer, you don't expect to be fed. You're going out there knowing that it's you that needs to go and win the work or at least go upstream to you to request for more work.

Well, it's not just the more work request. It's how you function day to day. It's that how you operate in terms of being efficient because you've got that objective insight at all times.

It's a fundamental mind shift that just transforms every day, not just how you do business development, for example. Yeah, interesting. What I'm starting to find is that the consultancy model is, you know, it's probably working better than it ever has done out there.

But the firms I think that have really mastered it is they're doing both. Yeah. They've got a core that's employed that they primarily work to keep, you know, busy with work.

And then they've got a whole ring of consultants around them so that then when their core team become too busy, they could spill the work off so their core team don't get burnt out. That sounds so much better because then you've got the best of both worlds really. And I think certainly for junior lawyers, the burden of a business can be overwhelming.

Yeah. If you've got the opportunity to grow into that role whereby you can become a consultant and actually think about running a business without necessarily becoming a partner, which is not everybody's objective nowadays, is a really exciting way to work because you can work on the cases, learn all that you need to do, and then go into that consultancy role with a bit more flexibility, but with the support of the team around you. So yeah, I think that's inspired.

I think that's a really good way to go. Yeah, absolutely. I don't know if you know, but I'm in the process of buying a first law firm myself.

Buying a law firm? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow.

Yeah, yeah. Goodness, how exciting. So when I said to you at the beginning of this call, I'm going to be learning a lot from you, I meant it.

Oh my gosh, you so are. That's really exciting. Why the jump to a law firm? That's excellent.

Simply because being a solo consultant that goes out there and advises, coaches, mentors, other law firm owners to succeed, it takes so much business development work to be able to get into conversation with the next one, to then work with them, and then they pay me a bit of money up front and then they go on to achieve this massive success where they end up increasing their profits and revenue so much more, and then they disappear, and then I'm back to the whole business development cycle. And so all my clients, nine out of ten of them all have the same problem. They all have too much work they can't keep up with.

So what I've learned is there's two different kinds of businesses. One kind of business that requires a lot of business development up front and a lot of work to create a client, and then you make the one sale and then they disappear and it's over, and then you've got to start all that again. And the opposite end of the spectrum is you've got work that doesn't require that much business development.

It comes to you quite easily, and then when that client becomes a client, then there's lots of repeat business, so they have a long lifetime value to that client. So I'm moving from one business model to that second business model. So basically I'm going to be doing exactly what I'm doing now.

I'm going to be working with the leaders of a firm and showing them how to delegate their workload away, empower their whole teams, achieve whole new levels of performance, except I'm the one that's actually owning the firm. How good is that? With the right structure in place, that is what will be transformational because lawyers aren't taught anything about business. In their journey.

At all. By default. I'm only just a baby when it comes to business.

I'm just learning so much in a short time and really I've been a business owner for only the last five years, been a lawyer for a lot longer, or a solicitor for a lot longer, but it is a really good idea to provide a service for business, business structure, business advice and business development. Yeah. And it's great.

I mean, I'm loving what I'm doing now. I can just see, I can really speed up, the number of lives I can impact through the knowledge that I've got if I do it this way. I can empower absolutely everybody in the entire firm that then as a knock on effect, all their families, friends and everywhere.

But I'm interested to hear from you. Okay. When you have a firm that is a consultee basis, what happens to premises and people meeting in an office and working in an office and when and how, how have you found that? Okay.

So at Scott Moncrief, we have the main office where the main office staff work and operate. So they provide the back office functions. Yeah.

Post that kind of thing where you still do use post. And they're based in London, which is an office where they're situated and there are meeting rooms, which we can book and use to meet clients. So my actual office is in the city, city of London.

It's actually Temple Avenue, which is in the temple. So it's a lovely location where we can go in and use it. But if all the consultants went in, we can go and just literally log in and work, but there would be not enough space for all of us at any one time.

Yeah. And as a rule, we are virtual. In fact, funnily enough, I joined Scott Moncrief during the pandemic because they were already set up as a virtual law firm.

Yeah. And already had been. And so the need to go into the office is only when you really need to meet clients.

But our facility is there. But it means that I don't necessarily need my own office. I do have my own office, but it's a converted part of the garage and I work from home.

Yeah, sure. And travel and go and see clients, which is always what I used to do because with catastrophic injury clients, they tend to, you tend to go to them rather than them coming to you anyway. But I think it depends on the nature of your work.

But if you've got a different area of law, you've got office facilities to be able to utilize and certainly meeting rooms. Yeah. Nice.

And how do you create that like team and teamwork cohesion when you're all remote? That's a tricky one. But we have, with my team of five, a teams meeting first thing every Monday morning. Nice.

The young, I do have the benefit. They all go into the office and work together and I just go in every so often. I sort of swan in, whereas they all do work together.

But how do you inspire them to come into an office when you're not? They already were working in an office and they came to me. And so I feel the privileged one that I'm invited in and they open the teams for me. So I feel it came the other way around is that I'm the privileged one to be invited into their world as the one that sort of they look to.

Yeah, it's a bit like what Charlie from Charlie's Angels, I sort of phone in and give my bit and then go away and they get on with all the work. If you like, it's the other way around, but they do work together, but they don't always work in the office and they do work from home. I do think they like the in-person contacts for the work they're doing together.

Yeah. Equally when we, when we're all from home, it's not a problem to jump on teams calls. They call me if they need anything or just jump on a teams.

They are connected, even though we are not necessarily physically present. Yeah. Nice.

I think you've said it there having a weekly team call where everyone dials in creates this feeling of us. We're in this together. I think you've got to create that.

You've got to have time where you, you have that overview. Anyone can ask any question and you deal with any issue. Yeah.

And that's got to be yeah, weekly. Yeah. Nice.

And then, and then do you also offer one-on-one support to each team member? Oh, absolutely. Without question. They can call me and if they don't get through, I'll always call them back.

Okay. So you don't have that scheduled same time each week. That's just as, and when they need it.

If they need me, they can call me. Yeah. Okay.

Okay. And I get that needed to be scheduled for anyone. We, we would do that.

I would do that. Yeah. Yeah.

Cause one of the things I take my clients through is to actually schedule that with everyone every week. Okay. I need to do that then.

Because what happens is, is when somebody contacts us for a challenge or something they've got going on, then we handle that and it's done, but then the call ends and that's it. So there isn't this space that's specifically designated to ask them, how's it going? How's your workload? How are you doing this week? You know, what is it that you're looking to achieve and how much closer are you to it? What do you need from me? What can I do for you? Go on. I think I've already delegated that responsibility to the other senior solicitor, to be fair.

Okay. Okay. Nice.

That's the, that's what we've put in place. So I'm more a call if you need me, whereas the actual hands on pastoral, you know, manager, management is done by another senior solicitor. Okay.

And does she have weekly or monthly calls? Yes. Yeah. Great.

There you go. So you see, you have put it in place. I know.

I just feel like I'm not, I do feel like I've swanned in and I'm just utilizing all these lovely people who are amazing and I'm, I'm just sort of like floating over the top, but I guess that's what the objective is in many respects. That is exactly the objective. And to you, it sounds like you're just swanning in, but you're not.

You've actually understood what it means to communicate effectively with people, which is grounded in firstly listening. You really listen and get into the world of everybody in your team, what they're looking to achieve, what matters to them. And then you work with them collaboratively to succeed at everything that matters to them and to your vision as a whole, right? Yes.

There you go. Yes. You do not need me or what I do.

I do, but there's still a lot more for us all to learn. Well, yes, but what I'm saying is, is the reason why you've got this feeling of just swanning in is because you've mastered communication to such a high level that it gives you the experience of just swanning in because your team are achieving such great, you know, results. They're cohesive.

They're working as a team and you're going places. And so without you having to exhaust yourself and to carry loads of the weight and doing loads of the billable work. So that tells me that you're, you're really on track for a fantastic future.

Maybe I just need to open my own law firm then, Dan. Well, have you not already? No, not yet. I've looked at it.

Um, maybe that's what I should think about doing. I'm, I have thought about it a lot in the past. I have looked at it, sat down formally on two occasions to set up a law firm.

And, uh, yes, that would be my next objective. Yeah, I think, I think you're in a perfect place to be able to do that. You've tried this out with a consultancy model, which is, you know, it requires less responsibility as such because you're only paying people based on the hours that they bill, you know, uh, but at the same time, you'll now have an experience of how consistently you're enabling a core few to work around the clock.

So you could see, okay, so if I employed them, that would bring my overhead of employing them down to this, which will be way less, which instantly increases your profits. But then as I've learned, you want to maintain the consultancy model on the side as well so that then you don't burn out your core team. That's what I hadn't thought about doing is to do it.

The two alongside is where I'd had that sticking point of making that extra leap. I can see the benefits and what I've learned, but to actually structure the business in that way sounds a really good way of doing it to me. So you still need the advice.

Yeah. Do you know, um, Alex McPherson from Ignition Law? I have heard of Alex. Yes.

Not met him yet. Yeah. He's, I've hosted him on the podcast and, uh, we, I've just become good friends with him and we meet when we're in London and, you know, we, we speak, but he's built exactly that.

He's got a business that's now turning over. I think, uh, just ticked over the 5 million mark. And, uh, it's, it's got like a third of it is employees and two thirds is consultancy model.

Wow. And he said to me that he really likes the two working hand in hand because the consultants give you a lesser profit margin, but stable consistent because your overheads are stable versus, you know, what they bill. But he also likes the employees because they're always available.

Always. They're ready to go for the most important things. But there's some other fundamental elements about how law operates that are interesting to what you've just said, because I only get paid at the end of a case.

Hmm. Um, so with the structure you've just put in place, the transactional lawyers would be the bread and butter of the business. Whereas those that earn the money at the end of their, of their cases are that, that real input of capital, if you like, and to not rely on just me and my little business for the cases that we, we conclude and succeed on just seems to make the whole thing more effective.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I think this is the future of employee versus consultants. That's what's happening. There isn't going to be one taken over the other.

I think it's going to become a merging of the two. But it's also that, um, you know, that objective was always make partner, whereas not all young lawyers want that as their objective. They want to do law.

Well, and it's, it's always that thing. I don't know, just about in any area of work. If you became a manager, you lost working in the business or doing what you actually enjoyed.

And I think being a lawyer can be a bit like that. As a partner, you in a business, in a law firm, you can suddenly have all these management issues to deal with. You're not even trained on that.

You're taken away from the law. Whereas the model where you stay as a consultant dealing with cases, but with teams of people and the support around you, lawyers are going to stay doing what they love best. Yeah.

Yeah. So then you, so then you've got the opportunity to offer them which, which route they want to go. Yeah.

And you basically, by coming back to, you know, skilled communications, grounding, listening, getting into the world of each team member. And, you know, in this case, the more senior members that want to become partner, if they do or don't, is finding that out. And then based on that, you can create for them a working environment where you play to their strengths.

Because this is what I've learned. Okay. Delegating transforms law firms when its owners practice it effectively.

However, not all law firm owners want to delegate and manage people. And that's okay. However, there needs to be a group of, you know, team members at a senior level that are open to the management and are willing to do it and give up the billable work.

And there needs to be some understanding and remuneration structure that actually works with those that just want to bill versus those that just want to manage. Totally right. And there is exactly all of that that goes on in a law firm, but nobody that really sort of strategizes that.

It's like herding cats at times. Yeah. The key is understanding who you are and what you want to do, and that might change throughout your career.

you know, some very good lawyers do become excellent managers. Yeah. Law firms and businesses.

And some just like to stay doing the cases. And it's just knowing how to work with who you've got in your team and what you do best. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. And then working with them collaboratively to create opportunities that works for everyone involved. Yeah.

Talking of collaboratively, maybe think about a law firm, Dan. Yes, well, I'm always room to, you know, and open to more ideas. Absolutely.

Who knows? Who knows? I don't have the business sense, I can tell you. I might have the communication and the experience, but the business world is a whole new world to me. You say that, but all that business is, is human beings communicating and getting on with other human beings.

That's all that business is. I guess so. Well, good business is about building good relationships.

Relationships, that's it. Your employment, your employees, you know, I've always really watched law firms that have investors in people, that grow and develop succession plan well, you know, look after those junior lawyers throughout their journey. I'm so excited that, you know, a trainee that, when I was a trainee, I had a lot of support.

And I'm still in contact with all the very senior lawyers, some of whom are retiring. And it's so exciting that they still follow the journey. And I'm trying to do the same with those that I've nurtured.

Yeah. Nice. Yeah.

Brilliant. Brilliant. Really great.

Well, look, you know, I know I could talk to you for hours on end, and I'm inspired to follow your journey and see where you go. Thank you. To you, launching and owning a law firm.

Yes, absolutely. I say do it, go for it. That's my challenge then, isn't it? Yeah.

Have you, have you read my book? I haven't yet. It's probably on my shelf. Oh, delegate now to supercharge your profits.

I haven't read it yet. Have you not? But I will. Have you got it? This book here, have you got it on your shelf? It's on my, I'll go and get it.

I promise. Okay, brilliant. Brilliant.

Have a read of that. Because well, that's going to really empower you in how you basically lead and manage to get the best out of people so that then you basically end up leading a team of people where each and everybody in the team fulfills what matters to them. It is exactly what I need to read next because I'm on that page.

Do I take that leap? And I haven't read it because I thought, Oh no, I'll not do that. Whereas actually you've made me think, why not? You're, already leading and managing people already, just in a different structure. So I'm sure that with your already great communication skills, you're going to really enjoy it. 

And I would love that. It's just having the confidence, the tools, and it looks like you've got that all set out for me. I just need to open it, read it and digest it to understand what I need to do. 

Yeah, we'll do, promise. Great. Well, look, Isabel, I've really enjoyed speaking to you today. 

I look forward staying in touch and maybe meeting up in London sometime. I'd love to see you. I'm just in Temple and it's been absolutely delightful to talk to you today. 

You've made me think about so many things too. So thanks, Dan. Really appreciate it. 

You're welcome. Go forth and conquer. Absolutely. 

Thank you for listening to the Law Firm Owners Podcast with me, your host, Dan Warburton. If you found this useful, then join my Law Firm Owners Club, which already has over 850 members. It's free to join. 

And as a member, you'll get my very best episodes, exclusive content, free training, tickets to events I'm speaking at, and the opportunity to network and learn from other highly successful law firm owners. If you'd like to join this for free, find out about working with me or contact me, then click the link in the episode description. Transcribed by https://otter.ai