117 - The 4 Principles of Law Firm Leadership

Simon Tupman is the author of The Heart of Practice: Leadership Principles for Legal Professionals. He is also a brilliant speaker and has been a mentor to law firms and legal professionals for over thirty years.

Having started his career as a practising solicitor in London, he moved into the business of law and moved to New Zealand in the early ‘90s.

Simon now specialises in helping develop leadership in law firms large and small.

To find out more, see his website here: https://www.simontupman.com/

Or get a copy of his book here:
https://www.simontupman.com/the-heart-of-practice-2023

About Dan:
Dan provides law firm owners with skills proven to increase their profits while reducing their workload. Over the last five years, Dan’s clients have grown their revenues from 15% to 392% while more than halving their workload in less than one year.

To find out about Dan's availability and programs, click here: https://www.danwarburton.com/

Proudly edited with finesse by Mike at Making Digital Real ✨

Transcript

Welcome to the Law Firm Owners Podcast with your host, that's me Dan Warburton. I'm absolutely honored here to have Simon Tupman. He's an author, speaker and mentor to law firms and legal professionals and has been for over 30 years. 

He started his career as a practicing solicitor in London and then he moved into the business of law and moved down under in the early 90s. He's now based in New Zealand and specializes in helping law firms develop leadership and in law firms at a large, small and even mid-size of all sorts. And for me it's an honor to have Simon here because I spoke to Simon early on in my journey to becoming a law firm growth consultant and he was a great support to me and he's renowned by many of the people that I connect with and speak to. 

And today what we're going to be speaking about is the four principles of law firm leadership. Simon, it's great to have you here. Nice to be here, thank you for inviting me.

So leadership in law firms, when I think of that I think of law firm owners and partners that say oh yeah yeah we do that, yeah yeah yeah yeah we do that, yeah we got it, yeah yeah we know we're doing, yeah yeah. And then you find out that they're working 50, 60, 70, 80 hours, they're exhausted, they're burnt out, they're tired, they're fed up. Many of them end up in a law firm they can't sell because they can't afford the PI of runoff insurance and they're still saying yeah yeah I've got it, I know what I'm doing. 

What would you say to all of that? It doesn't sound like they're leading very well and those are the symptoms that you and I experience I guess on a fairly regular basis. And you know when people are so busy like that and they're chasing these targets and they are maybe unashamedly making money for the firm, they don't feel it's sometimes necessary or they don't have the time to get off the conveyor belt and actually stand back and think about why are we doing it this way. And in part the leadership piece that I've been working on in the last two or three years in particular has really tried to focus on that issue and encourage very busy legal professionals to actually take stock of what they're doing and why they're doing it and to determine whether or they are actually leading their businesses properly and that involves leading themselves and being good at leading people as well and those are some of the things that I think we might be able to explore today. 

Yeah nice, nice. Your book The Heart of Practice, it was a brilliant read, I really enjoyed it. Thank you. 

So one of these four principles that you've seen are kind of like the foundation of law firm owners starting to lead their team members effectively so they finally get their life back and enjoy just greater performance from everyone around them. Well you know like the cover, you can see it over my shoulder here, but that's the cover of it, you see this little blue heart where my finger is there. And leadership represents the heart or the heartbeat of any legal practice in my view and some firms have it on a scale of one to ten, some firms might be two out of ten, some firms might be eight or nine out of ten, but I think that also is an indication of how healthy the heartbeat is and if it's not beating well then there's obviously a risk that you might have a heart attack as it were. 

And so what I'm really driving at here is that I think firms need to actually have a think about how good leadership is in their firm and how well it is actually driving the pulse of the firm so that it is functioning effectively. And I think when I did my research for the book a couple of years ago, I wanted to combine my experiences, Dan, with those of people who'd been in the driving seat, who've actually been leading firms in their firms and that led me to interview 10 people in the UK, Canada, Australia and here in New Zealand to try and get their take on it from a very pragmatic point of view. And so you know the book is effectively a synthesis of, I won't say my words to theory because they're very much based on over 30 years experience of working with legal professionals around the globe and understanding what they do well and what they don't well. 

What they don't do well rather and you know before I sort of delve into these principles, I think contextually it's important to remind people of some of the preconceptions that I think are driving people's thought processes in law firms because I think they've been so inculcated to believe certain things like these sort of long-held truths that in fact don't actually hold up in today's market. So for example, if I can give you an example of some of these, what I might refer to loosely as these sort of misconceptions. One would be the idea that because you're a partner, you're a leader because you have seniority or a title therefore you're entitled to call yourself a leader because you're working those 80 hours a week and you're busy and you're bringing in the money to the firm that entitles you to call yourself a leader. 

And I think that is a misconception and I think it's fair to say we all know of firms where there are people who are partners but they have no leadership qualities whatsoever that they might be good at with good lawyers but what we're talking about here is not about being a good lawyer. We're talking about basically being a better person, a leader of people. I think one of the other beliefs anyway is the idea that the purpose behind doing what we all do is to make money. 

It's profit and it's a question sometimes I've asked at my retreats. I sort of say, show of hands, what is the purpose? Why does your firm exist? And people confuse their own personal agenda, their own drivers. In other words, we need to earn a living, we need to work, we need to do meaningful work to pay the mortgage, to put the kids through school or whatever. 

But don't confuse that with the raison d'etre of your business. And I don't think that any law firm exists to make money. Yes, it's a test of their financial viability but that's not the reason it exists.

And the answer to that question is to be found in what your clients would say if you ask them, what do we do for you? And if those clients said, you help us, I would argue that that's very much where your purpose is founded. That's what you're in business to do is to help your clients. The third belief that I think has permeated and existed in this profession industry for a number of years is the fact that time is money. 

The belief that many lawyers think is that they sell time. And there will be many thousands of lawyers who disagree with me and they believe that the way our firm is structured, the way we have budgets, the way we put a price on our services by giving ourselves an hourly rate means that we are in the business of selling time. But in fact, that's not what your clients are buying. 

And we all know that no one goes along to a law firm to say, well, can I buy your time, please? They have an issue they want it dealt with. And quite often they'll be happy to pay a fixed price to have that dealt with, whether it's in a day or whether it takes a week, it doesn't matter. But I'm just having my roof painted by a painter at the moment. 

I don't care how long it's going to take him to do it, but I've agreed a fixed fee in advance. He knows what the job's going to take. He takes on the risk, not me as the client. 

And then I think the fourth belief that I think enshrouds this profession is the fact that language and words are very powerful here, but we talk about human resources, not just in the legal profession, but right across the world of industry. And I think that's a dangerous definition. I explain in my book why I think we should be talking about people, not human resources, like they can be sacked on whim. 

And we know there are certain leaders around the world at the moment who do take that view. So I think we've got to firstly challenge the entrenched beliefs that we may hold onto and look for examples of other legal professionals who are actually doing it differently. And that's one of the reasons why I sort of profile some of these other business leaders, legal professionals in the back of my book.

So that's the first part of it. Now, I haven't answered your question yet, and I will get to it, but before I explain to you what these four leadership principles were, I wanted to explain that we are sort of shrouded, I think, in sort of archaic work practices, and that for leadership to take hold, we really have to be challenging the status quo and say, okay, let's just talk about why we believe these things. And when I break the concept of leadership down, I guess the other thing I should really do, and I try to do when I'm speaking to the audiences that I do, is to say, well, what do you regard as being leadership? Because you could ask thousands of people, and they all have their own definition. 

And in my book, I sort of asked all the interviewees to give their own versions of it. And there were a number of consistencies right across those definitions, one of which was around the concept of people, and that nearly all the legal professionals that I interviewed in the book placed people as their priority before the bottom line. And I think that's a significant difference compared with lots of firms.

So what is leadership? It's a concept, I think, that is a bit hazy in a lot of people's minds. You know, there are thousands of business books written on the topic, but not many for law firms, which is one of the reasons I wanted to write The Heart of Practice, is to try and clarify the distinction between that and management, and there are some overlaps. And if it's helpful, I'm gonna throw at you a definition which I put in the book, and it's from one of the books on the shelves behind me here. 

And it's from probably a seminal work on leadership by American authors, Cousins, and Posner, in which they say, the most significant contribution that leaders make is not simply to today's bottom line, it's to the long-term development of people and institutions so that they can adapt, change, prosper, and grow. I think, you know, you like that? Yeah, yeah, nice. Yeah. 

And for me, I mean, there are three aspects to that definition that stand out for me. First, the concept of contribution, that leaders aren't all about, you know, taking all the time and checking my budgets and how can I acquire, you know, reputation, status, all the rest of it in my firm. You reach a certain stage in your career where you may have achieved all of that, achieved your budgets, you've reached the status and all that stuff, and yet it's time to hand back and give back and help other people elevate their careers. 

So, contribution is one part of it. The second one is taking a long-term view, which is something that lawyers aren't great at doing. You know, the knee-jerk reaction, you know, comes about when you see the results from the accountant, the management accounts, you know, every quarter or every annual partner's meeting, you know, how are we doing here? We're sort of looking over our shoulder at, you know, indicators that happened in the last 12 months, not in terms of where we see ourselves going in the next one to three years. 

So, taking a longer-term view, which often requires firms to actually invest and pause rather than taking short-term decisions. And then I think the third aspect of that is people, you know, so that your people can grow and prosper. So, that's a bit of, you know, contextualizing for you, Dan. 

So, what I didn't... Yeah, I love it, absolutely love it. And I think what would be useful is, for the listener, is to really start to understand what's the value and importance of learning leadership. So, what would you say goes on in a law firm that lacks leadership skill and effective leadership from its leaders? What goes on, what happens in such a law firm? Well, a number of things. 

And by explaining these four domains of leadership, I argue that if you fail in any one of the four, then there is a risk that your leadership will be compromised altogether. And so, to answer that question, let me just explain those four areas that I break it down into. First is the area of self-leadership. 

And that's the responsibility that everyone, not just partners, but everyone in a firm has to advance their career, to behave in certain ways that help them to become more confident and influential people. Such as doing what you say you'll do by when you say you'll do it, speaking kindly to people, not getting angry, creating a safe space for people to express their problems and troubles. Yeah, yeah, great. 

Exactly. We all see those bad behaviour aspects taking hold in many firms. I mean, when I first wrote my very first book, Why Lawyers Should Eat Bananas, 25 years ago, I then pointed to some fairly alarming statistics about mental health in law firms. 

And to be honest, not a hell of a lot has changed in 25 years. We still have high rates of depression, even suicide, bullying. And that has created its own kind of cultural crisis, I think, in various jurisdictions around the world. 

So, the concept of self-leadership, I think, is really important. It's not about being a better lawyer. It's effectively about being a better person, a better communicator, having more skills, and being able to embrace all of that. 

And I don't think age is discriminatory. I think I've met people who are in their 20s who demonstrate more leadership qualities than some of those partners who are in their 50s or 60s. Yeah. 

So, leadership isn't just the domain of people who are old farts, basically. So, that's the first thing I want to say. The second area relates to people leadership. 

So, you can have people who are very good self-starters. They may have those behavioral attributes that make them good leaders, but the ability to lead people and to put people at the heart of your decision-making, which involves being compassionate, being empathetic, being a good listener, all those things, I think is absolutely vital, and not treating them as human resources. The third area where I think things can go wrong is in terms of how legal professionals lead their business. 

And for me, this is probably the biggie in that you've got very capable lawyers who are often very nice people. They're often quite good with leading the people who work in those firms, but they are hopeless business people. And when it comes to a range of issues that ensure that the firm can tick over effectively, it tends to fall down, particularly in the smaller to mid-size firms that have yet to understand the power of delegating administrative managerial decisions to an executive suite. 

You end up with a situation with a partnership where every partner feels that he or she has a say in every decision that's made about that firm. You cannot run a business on that basis. And the fourth area, which is arguably... Just remind us, what was the title of that third one again? Business leadership.

Business leadership, yeah. And the fourth area is community leadership, which obviously takes on greater importance when you start delving down into the area of environmental and social governance and those kinds of issues. And so those are the four domains. 

And each domain, as I've suggested in my book, is backed up by a principle. So when it comes to self-leadership, I'm arguing that before you lead others, learn to lead yourself. In terms of the second domain, people leadership, I'm arguing that you should treat people as you would like to be treated. 

Principle number three in terms of business leadership is run your firm as a business entity, not just a collection of sole practitioners trading under one roof and sharing office space and secretarial support and so on. And point number four, community leadership, the principle there has helped solve some of the world's problems. And to answer your question, where do firms go wrong? I think a lot of firms hire people for their, particularly in the lawyer suite, they hire them for their legal skills and expertise and experience. 

But sometimes they don't delve deeper in terms of their leadership qualities or their capabilities in terms of leading teams. And typically, you must have come across this when you sort of talk to team leads and say, what do you talk about those Monday morning meetings? And a lot of the feedback I get is that they're a complete waste of time. We just, did you have a nice weekend and get a cup of coffee? Nothing's really sort of focused on workload, client needs, many of the important performance indicators that we need to focus on, workload level, delegation, all those kinds of issues.

Yeah. And in terms of business leadership, I think there's a huge amount that can be achieved here by firms if a lot of those lawyers are prepared to kind of let go and, or roll their sleeves up and get themselves educated in terms of what is needed to run their law firms more as a business entity and less like a barrister's chambers, if I could put it that way. Yeah.

So I hope this is making sense for you. It's really good. I think it's still really useful to really break down like what happens if people don't have these leadership practices implemented in their firm? Like what are the classic breakdowns that you see going on law firms that continue because their owners don't have these leadership skills? Well, I see basically staff getting pissed off because there is no leadership, particularly younger people who want to see leadership from their business owners or from their team leaders.

Why do they get pissed off? Like what is it that they experience? Because they're treated as human resources, not as people. There's perhaps little focus on career development. They're not trusted enough in the workplace. 

I've sometimes likened law firms to a bit like boarding schools. Every power is based on seniority. And I think those days are over. 

And there are plenty of examples that indicate that the more you trust your people, the more you're going to get back from them. So that's one indicator. And the fact that people are being asked to keep timesheets, we're judging their performance based on the wrong things, on billable hours. 

How exciting is that to come to work and say, I've got to fill out that timesheet today? How about getting feedback from clients in terms of the outcomes that they develop for them? Is that not an important measure of success? Isn't that the reason that you're in business, not to fill out timesheets to make money for the business, but it goes over and beyond that? So not having enough client contact or feedback from the clients coming into the business I think is another reason. And that firms are trying to make decisions about what's in the best interest of their firm with sometimes no client data whatsoever. But how's that affected by a lack of leadership or caused by a lack of leadership? Because I think it's the leader's responsibility to actually go and solicit or elicit feedback from clients and get input from clients into some of the decision-making process. 

And yet a lot of people who would consider themselves to be leaders, but they're not, they're senior people in law firms, you know, you know, actually push back on the concept saying, you know, we're in the business of giving advice, not taking it sort of stuff. So it's, you know, we're not going to clients giving us feedback. We know we've done a good job for them. 

This sort of, and if they, if we weren't doing a job, a good job for them, they'd complain. That sort of stuff is what you get, you know, a lot of. So that to me is a fault of leadership.

And I think it's prevalent in a lot of firms. Yeah. Yeah. 

So you get, you get the young people not getting the recognition or the career progression they want. So they often leave, which keeps adding to that high staff turnover. You also get the, the business owners as such.

They, they don't listen. They, they feel like they've got it all handled. They know everything we're in the business of giving advice, not receiving advice. 

And so because of that, they haven't got their ears to the ground of what's really going on in their firms and in their world of their clients. So they don't adapt and elevate their services effectively enough to make the most out of their client base. Right. 

Yeah, that's certainly, you know, part of it. And I think another thing that I'll touch on as well, when it comes to particularly this aspect of business leadership, you know, last year I, or in fact, 18 months ago, I ran my last law firm leadership survey. Um, and four, four key themes came out of that, which will help answer this question. 

Firstly, firms said they were unprepared for the future. I didn't have time thinking about what's around the corner. Okay. 

Impact of AI or, uh, you know, what could go on if there was a recession that no one predicted COVID, but they adjusted. Or the owners getting so old that they're thinking of leaving, you know, but really don't know what they're doing. Well, that was my, that was my fourth point, little or no banning these firms, uh, you know, what are we going to do in the event that someone's has cancer or is it dies suddenly or whatever? Um, uh, second point, little or no strategic agenda. 

Um, and, and so often these firms, you know, people like to be working in a business where they've got some clarity around a, how the firm's currently doing and B what its ambitions are for the future. And a lot of the clients that I've been working with, um, uh, are surprisingly naked when it comes to those two aspects. You know, they've tried business planning. 

It doesn't really work for the party because they don't know how to go about doing any form of business planning. Um, they're lawyers, they're not business people. Um, and so, you know, sometimes it pays for them to engage outsiders.

Um, and you know, in terms of, um, overall, um, how are we doing in terms of performance? You know, it's amazing how, um, opaque firms are about money. Certainly here in New Zealand, they don't like talking about money. They're almost embarrassed to talk about how much we're making or how, you know, what profitability was. 

So all these people are going to work in the dark and they're having, not having a clue how the firm's performing financially or where, you know, where its ambitions lie in terms of where we're going in the future. Um, the third part of it, which I think is absolutely critical. Um, you know, if you're talking about a partnership model and you've got partners in there and it could be, I don't know, it could be anywhere between one and 10, or there could be hundreds of them, depending on the size of your firm. 

Um, but obviously, uh, it's important that there has to be some degree of consensus or unity, um, at the very least about working together as a group of people in the same firm, you know, tied together by the same degree of values. But you know, what I've, I've found, um, certainly consistently, and not just in my survey of 18 months ago is that, you know, there are still those partnerships there where you might have some partners who are happy to collaborate, but there's perhaps the high fee earning partner who is a law to him or herself, her own self. And they don't want to play ball.

They just want to be working in a silo, doing their own thing, uh, making as much money as they can and screw everyone else. Um, and, and, you know, I don't know how on a business and how leadership can thrive in a business if you've got, um, the business being held to ransom in that way. Yeah. 

Yeah. And everything you say resonates with all the conversations and the work I've done with, with my clients. And one of the biggest breakdowns I see from a lack of leadership is, is delegation. 

It's where they don't trust their team members. So then they don't even delegate any of their workload away. So then they end up working round the clock doing the work they've had, or they've, that they've always done for their clients they've had for years.

And then on top of that, they're supposed to be managing doing future forecasting, you know, and, and leading the firm through the constantly changing economy. And they end up just absolutely miserable, exhausted, and just not enjoying owning their firms at all anymore. So, and that, you know, it's like the snowball effects, as you say, you know, they don't delegate, they don't trust their team enough. 

So they, they think it's quicker to do it themselves. Yeah. Um, they get terribly stressed out. 

Uh, they can't, you know, they're human beings after all trying to deal with all that pressure. And this is where I think the transition from lawyer to leader is something that really thought about is that, you know, you start off, um, you know, uh, trying to build a career, then you start trying to build business for your employers, and then you start building, building a business as an owner, an employer, and as a leader. And, and, you know, the demands placed on you as an individual are very, very different from, you know, the early stages of your career to moving along that continuum. 

And, and yet there are lots of lawyers we know who say it's good enough to be a good lawyer and bringing money into this practice. And, you know, that's not leadership. Yeah. 

Uh, you know, years ago, I remember, um, you know, doing one of the first workshops I did when I was doing my consulting was on delegation, funnily enough, and it was an oversubscribed workshop in Sydney. Everyone was fascinated with this topic and they all ended up basically saying, you know, we're too busy holding onto files. And I said, well, you know, learn to delegate, learn to give people the confidence because how else are they going to pick up the skills? So I applaud you in the work you're doing because it's still very much needed today. 

Yeah, thank you. I absolutely, I I've, I've clearly seen that a lot of the biggest challenges that law firm owners face, things like keeping up with compliance and regulations, uh, you know, business development, trying to create new business, all of this. It's, it's not that they can't do it. 

It's that they're not available to do it. That's their biggest challenge. And because they're not available to do and manage and handle these things, they're constantly having to just weather massive levels of stress constantly whilst doing this billable work. 

But if they learn to delegate away their billable work to their team members in a way that's reliable and has their clients be taken care of, that then reduces their workload. When it reduces their workload, they're then available and free to then start doing the business development, taking care of compliance and everything else. And that, that, that, well, basically their workload comes down, their profitability goes up.

So I've seen that delegating really is one of the most important skills and it, and it is part of the whole leadership and management, um, skill base. Yeah. Yeah.

Most definitely. And I think if, I think there's another aspect to this is that what you and I are talking about, uh, we understand and deeply believe that it makes sense. And you, you and I have got people that we've worked with over the years who say, yes, it works. 

And yet there are still the sceptics out there who'll say, Hmm, I'm, I'm not so sure. And this involves sort of like, um, taking a bit of a risk and, you know, while I'm, while we're doing okay. Um, then, you know, why should I actually make that transition or attempt to make that transition or be prepared to, you know, the old phrase, the Emperor's wearing no clothes. 

Why should I be prepared to sort of disrobe myself and sort of say, you know, throw myself out there and feel vulnerable. Um, and, and I think, you know, that is one of the roadblocks to progress, persuading people that what we're talking about isn't bullshit. If I can use that expression, it's deeply grounded in research. 

And, uh, there is plenty of evidence to show that people who can, uh, assume, uh, better leadership skills in their firms and better delegation skills are going to be much more productive, much happier. Um, and, their firms are going to be, I think, thriving in the longer term. Yeah, I absolutely agree. 

It's really music to my ears to hear, you know, you saying all this, you know, with, with 25 years more on my career, you know, as a, as a law firm consultant, it's fantastic to hear all this. What would you say to anyone who does own a law firm and thinks they have leadership, they have management in place, but yet they're working 50, 60, 70 hours or a bit miserable, fed up and tired. You know, what, what would you say to them are the first things to possibly look at to start having a breakthrough in their experience as a law firm owner? Well, one of the things that I encourage firms to do is to actually ask the people who work with them. 

Um, and these are often people who are not in the partnership boardroom. And that again is something that a lot of firms do, but there are also a lot of firms have never asked their people. What do you think of us? It's sort of like a form of like 360 feedback, if you like, but just, you know, I think a good leader has got to be prepared to, um, ask the questions and to really listen at what people are actually saying, rather than just try and sort of put it underneath the carpet. 

I think that's, that's one aspect to it. And that I think can feed into discussion debates, uh, around the partnership table about what people are thinking, what they're feeling. And I think that feedback can come from clients as much as it can from their people. 

And then if they recognize that there are aspects to their working life that lead them feeling unfulfilled or unproductive or overworked or stressed, um, they, uh, I think can call in outsiders, whether it's business coaches, whether it's people who can help with mental health, uh, people like yourself, or, you know, teaching them delegation skills, just know that there are people outside there who external influences who can come in and can actually contribute significantly to your firm. I think the other part of this too, is to make sure that you get organized, um, and don't try to be all things to all people. And in some firms that means, you know, sitting down and saying, okay, well, if we're going to roll up our sleeves, cause leadership isn't easy. 

Um, but it can, it can mean giving up one thing to assume another. So in your case, it might mean giving over those files to a younger person to free yourself up. So you can actually become a better delegate or a better leader of people and so on. 

Um, and I think, you know, therefore take away all this pressure on billable hours, reduce that maybe, and, and, and place the emphasis more on team leadership and make sure that the way that your firm is managed best reflects, you know, the ambition that you have for all your partners. Uh, you know, don't sell the management short, give the management authority and a mandate to do what they need to do. And in some firms you need to have a driver. 

Some firms will have a managing partner, but that can be a very demanding role on one single individual. So depending on the type of firm it is, you know, it might be that you split up and have the portfolio management system. So you've got a partner doing, you know, um, a business development, a partner in charge of it and, uh, uh, eight, another partner in charge of business development so that they're developing your expertise in each critical aspects of the firm's management and another partner, maybe in terms of finance as well. 

So, so those are the, those are the four, as you were, if you diced it and spliced it sort of thing. Um, but, but getting the more involved in, in the leadership and the, and the management side of the business without micromanaging and getting them perhaps away from just being pure black, lesser lawyers. Yeah. 

Yeah. Brilliant. Love it. 

Great insights there. I think one of the biggest challenges that law firm owners and partners face that are in that situation is this. It's easy if I just carry on as I've always been even like, even like, let's say I'm a law firm owner and I'm working 65 hours a week. 

I haven't been on a proper holiday for like a year and a half. My wife keeps telling me we can't ever go on holiday. You're always working. 

I haven't seen my kids grow up as much as I'd like to, you know, I'd love to restore an old car or have a hobby or something, but I've never got around to that. And you know what I could just carry on as I've always been. I'm all right. 

And, and that's the, that's the deadly trap here because it's easy for us to keep surviving what it is that we've always known how to survive, you know, but it can be daunting to let go of surviving all that and choosing a new future. Right. And it, and it often takes like a, like a, um, uh, a health scare or something to really shock us, to change the way we're doing things. 

And I think this is the biggest danger is that they're not, they're not at the rock bottom of rock bottom. And so they can just carry on as, as, as usual. Yeah. 

I quite agree with you and it doesn't necessarily take an earthquake or a heart attack to necessarily bring about change. I think, I think bringing about change, you know, it does require courage, but you can actually do it. And you know, one way is to fast forward, wind the clock and think to yourself, okay. 

Um, so something does happen to me and I end up in the grave earlier than I anticipated. What will people say? Well, they say here lies someone who made a profit. Here lies someone who did 1500 hours a year.

Here lies someone who never delegated. Here lies someone who neglected his kids or his family. And here lies someone who never fulfilled his passion for restoring motorcars, whatever it might be, or never had a holiday. 

You know, life is about, I believe, uh, grasping the opportunity and making decisions that, that might in the short term be a bit scary. Um, and might mean a reduction of income, but maybe sometimes, you know, your, your overheads reduce some of those as well, but take control, not just of your career, but of your life, uh, and determine what it is that is really going to fulfill you first and foremost, rather than flogging yourself to death doing something that you're not necessarily really enjoying. You know, the, the David Meister, who was one of my greatest influences in the early part of my career and several of his books on the shelves behind me here, I think in his, uh, his book, um, true professionalism that he talked about as part of his research, this is over 30 years ago, that maybe 10% of people, uh, in professional service firms actually love what they do. 

Um, a further like 65% or so just tolerate it because that's all they've ever known. And they find it difficult to jump off the conveyor belt, you know, and a further maybe 25% hate what they do and they definitely are stuck. So, you know, I want to say to those people who are in the middle or in the, in the bottom tier there to say, you know, you can, you can actually challenge what you're doing, but you have to be honest with yourself. 

Yeah. Brilliant. Simon, I've absolutely loved hosting on the show. 

I've gained loads of amazing insights and I'm sure the listeners will, uh, I'll put a link in the description to be able to get a copy of your book. I think it's very useful for any law firm owner or partner to read that. And yeah, thanks so much. 

I look forward to staying in touch and, uh, yeah, meeting when the time is right. Well, I hope so. Um, and hopefully we'll see you in New Zealand one of these days. 

Yes. Who knows? That's the place I've never been. Let's make it happen.

Good stuff. All right, Dan, nice talking to you. Thanks for having me on and, uh, all the best for the rest of this year and beyond. 

Cheers. Bye. Take care. 

Bye-bye.