Church: An unlikely ally

In this episode, Pacey and Bonnie Violet discuss the overwhelming feelings of the relentless news cycle. Sometimes, the best antidote to feeling overwhelmed is by being in community, which is why Trans Joy Boise will be hosting a café on the 25th of January at the Boise Unitarian Universalist Fellowship. 

Yes, you read that right. The café will be at a church. Before you make your mind up, hear us out! Pacey and Bonnie Violet go into great detail about past and present feelings with religion and "church". We want to assure our dear listeners that all feelings are valid, however, we may have unexpected allies in places we have typically written off in the past. 

Transcript

Hi, everyone. How's it going? I'm Bonnie Violet. I'm a trans, femme, genderqueer, spiritual drag artist and digital chaplain. And welcome to Trans Joy Boise, the podcast where we celebrate the vibrant stories, resilience, and connections of Boise's trans community. Through heartfelt conversations, uplifting narratives, and shared experiences, we explore the many ways trans joy thrives despite challenges. I'm going to make you do it. OK. Each episode highlights inspiring voices from local advocates and artists to everyday heroes, showcasing the beauty and strength of being trans and voice and beyond. Together, we foster understanding, amplify voices, and create a space for joy, healing, and solidarity. That's part two. Sure, yeah. No. No? All right. Tune in, connect, and celebrate with us. Trans joy is here, and it's unstoppable. I know. You're better at that part. Well, we'll figure it out. I was like, I don't want to hog up all this space. And did you introduce yourself, though? Oh, no, I'm Pacey. I'm trans masc. I use they, he pronouns. I'm a mental health and recovery advocate. Woo. Yeah, got that out of the way. Awesome, right? Mm-hmm. How have you been? Stressed. Yeah? Yeah. Well, I mean, what for? Right? It's so delightful right now. Right? just everything going on. It's at first, it seems like gradual, like every few days you would see something on your phone that was devastating. And now it's like, it feels like every time I'm looking at my phone, I'm seeing something that is horrific, you know, anti-trans anti-queer whatever. And it's overwhelming. yeah yeah I've definitely seen just more trans everything on like all my socials and everything you have whether it's more trans creators uh talking about stuff or more meeting new trans people all the time or definitely yeah a lot of like just the this bill that bill we're gonna lose this we're gonna lose that I even saw laverne cox talking about like she was like telling people like if you can be stealth be stealth if you can flee flee and I was just like damn I was like I was because I hear you all I hear people say that and I understand it but to hear laverne cox say it was just like a whole another level and I was just like thinking Oh, should I, should I be, you know? And it's, I think that's, I think that's something that's been ongoing for me. And it, you know, it's just like, it's like this push and pull of like, how freaked out should we be? And how freaked out shouldn't we be? And like all these sorts of things. And it's just interesting. And then we have also people who are choosing to come out who've been stealth, you know, because they've seen what's happening and they're like, no, this is not okay. Like I've been living in this safety all this time. Now I need to, no, I need to do something. something you know so it's such this interesting space that people are in but I think it's it's you know it's that what fight flight is it Fawn yeah and freeze and freeze yeah yes I loved that um yes those four I know Fawn was a newer one but I think we're just definitely seeing a lot of that which is basically says there's a lot of space for fear and a lot of ways in which we're going to I guess respond to it. Yeah, it's it's really impressive to me when people that have been living stealth are now deciding to be more public about it. We have someone that is going to be working with us who is doing that very thing. And it's I'm just so impressed by him. Yeah. But it's it's interesting because I'll talk to some people. and I've even researched this, where a lot of the propaganda that we're seeing, like the anti-trans propaganda, is very similar to a lot of the propaganda that was around in the forties. And that's alarming, right? So then you think of, you talk to people that are like, well back then in the forties you wonder about these people that didn't leave you know why didn't they leave and then we're in a situation that is sort of similar I mean we have no idea what's going to happen but it's like the way that they're talking about things is eerily reminiscent of it and you know we're still here you know we're not going anywhere so And in Idaho, we've been dealing with this crap they've been talking about at a national level now. We've been dealing with it already. And yes, we're still here. It's kind of like the boiling frogs thing. You put frogs in hot water and they don't jump out because it's just kind of warm. And then the hotter it gets, they still don't. But then by the time they're boiling, it's too late. And I think that we have been very gradually been exposed to a lot of this anti-trans rhetoric and legislation. And now it's really starting to ramp up. Yeah, yeah. Well, we were like, you know, for folks, you might be wondering, like, why we do this podcast or how we come think to come up with what we do. But we literally were just talking for the podcast. We're trying to see, like, what makes the most sense to be talking about with you all, not only today, but just also like in the future and how this might look too so we really are trying to do our best to really kind of like speak to what is happening right now and hopefully helping people because this is not this fear this seeing the doom scrolling that like this is something that's going to be happening over and over and over for the next few weeks and so we're really hoping to be maybe a soft space where folks can land to either learn a little bit about this or even just be in community while you're kind of like sitting through some of this stuff because self-care, managing your consumption of this stuff, spending time with friends and loved ones, all that stuff is going to become, I think, even more and more important over the next few weeks. Absolutely. I think that everybody gets to decide how much media they're consuming, and where they're consuming it. I think, you know, I myself am on Reddit far too much, so I am inundated by a lot of horrific, just, I get the news almost immediately of the anti-trans stuff that's happening, and everyone's different. Some people can handle looking at that all the time, but then other people, it's just too much, and that's okay for it to be too much. so we kind of want to be a place where you can kind of go to get some updates and news but in a little bit of a softer fashion right yeah and really kind of helping to sift out the urgency of things or I don't know we'll like we'll have to play by ear because we have yet to see how things are really gonna pulled, I guess, come undone, so to speak. But we are doing our best to keep our ears to the ground and talk with other folks. And we're hoping to have people on over the next few weeks who can tell you a little bit, speak more about some of these things as well. I know one of the things we wanted to spend some time on today was, I guess, talking about maybe an unlikely collaborator, or I know it's a collaborator that... is one that we say, oh, we're working with the Unitarian Universalist Church. And people are like, huh? Church? Trans people? Gender nonconforming people in church? Those people are horrible to us. They are awful. And yes, there are many of them that are. So why work with... Why are we deciding to work with the UU? Yeah, I think that this is a really important topic because I know that I've spoken to a lot of people in our community about this event that we're doing and events in the past and I'll say it's at a church and immediately I know what the response is going to be because it was my response, honestly. It was like, no, gross. Why the fuck is it at a church? Because a huge percentage of trans and non-binary people have religious trauma. And that doesn't necessarily have to be at a church, but it can just be from religious people. And I think hosting anything at a church is going to be triggering for many people. And that's why we wanna talk about it today. Yeah, we really wanna talk about it in the sense that we know and understand that it's a difficult situation and difficult spot that might not be for everybody. But we also wanted to give some like, I guess just a little bit more, like let you like see the thought and the grappling that we've gone through, even just the two of us and in conversations with other people around, you know, working with the UU and I know, I first started working with Unitarian Church back when I was doing more drag work versus trans work. And I had just moved back to Idaho, and I was really looking for a church or a faith community that would be open to having drag artists come in and be a part of their service and part of what they do. um because that was something that I've gotten booked and I've done in other cities and other other states but I hadn't didn't know if that was something that would be happening here and the unitarian church was I said met reverend sarah lawall and at first I just saw her come to all these different things where she was like she was at the trans day of visibility event she was speaking at this she was speaking at that she was coordinating things around trans everything, you know, like I think if anybody's been in Boise for any amount of time and been looking at trans and non-binary kind of like activism or advocacy, they're going to know Reverend Sarah Lawal because she just does so much and has been doing so much for a long time. She has a trans child, which for me was something that led me to feel a little bit more comfortable as well, because I think there are plenty of churches and plenty of church people who might say They love us and affirm us, but are they actually going to do that? That's a whole nother question. And that's something I think that takes time to really figure out because I think there's a lot of well-meaning people who have the best of intentions, but at the end of the day, they can be harmful to us and our community. And so, but we feel good about this and it's not like the long-term plan. No, I think right now for our community, a lot of these things, like maybe collaborations or places that are open to us and available to us, are going to be coming from a place of necessity for us. We are doing the cafe where we're helping people getting their documentation figured out. And we need a place to do that. And this place happens to be open and wanting us to go. And they want to help us do this. for me it's it's difficult because I have like I had the quintessential aa experience right like I went in I was really vulnerable and they convinced me that the only way you're going to get clean is with god right I ended up with a stereotypical aa religious tattoo and then I was just like this is ridiculous because I had never been religious my entire life and uh And I thought that that was really predatory and gross. And I've seen countless people be turned away essentially from recovery because they don't believe in God or they're uncomfortable with it. So I like to go and make sure that that doesn't happen because it really shouldn't be about a higher power at all. It should be about you. So my experience in religion really is I was really affiliated with the Satanic temple because I was a part of the sober faction there. So in order to be, to facilitate my own meetings, I had to be an ordained minister in the Satanic temple. So I did that and I hosted weekly meetings with their sober faction, which I thought was great because it's secular. Like they don't actually believe in Satan. And I felt like we helped people a lot more than, other typical twelve steps and I just have so it makes me so worried with church just because of all of the negative harmful bullshit that I've seen so I just kind of want to help represent anyone who has similar feelings as myself. Like if you are worried about religion, if you're not religious, if you hate religion, it's still a safe place because there are going to be other people like you. I will be there. And it's not, we're not going there for any church reason at all right you know and it's a non-denominational church which helps this church well and it's a unitarian church and so like for people who might not be familiar with kind of the unitarians and I'm going to speak fairly loosely of my understanding um but like like with the even with this unitarian church they do everything like I went to a solstice service service which was wiccan and done by a witch in the unitarian church they've they've done um They have drum circles on a regular basis. They have fascist meetings. They have all these really cool, or not fascist meetings. I didn't even catch it. I was just like, yeah, cool. Freedom from fascist, I think, groups. Don't say it. I just assumed that you meant anti-fascist groups. Anti-fascist, totally, yeah. I love it. Yes, they do not have fascist groups. They have anti-fascist groups. And the Unitarians themselves, they do have kind of like a creed like any other church would as far as like what they believe and don't believe. But they're not necessarily a Bible church. They're not a... And a lot of times they'll actually have different faiths and different communities represented or even like host the service or they'll have side services. And one of the things that the Unitarian has been big on is actually comprehensive sex education. And so they've provided comprehensive sex education from pre-K to teens for decades. and it's and it's not just like a abstinence based only kind of crap yeah like it's actual like they go through the comprehensive sex ed so they talk about sexuality they talk about gender and it's all in a way that's affirming um spiritually affirming as well as you know everything else and they've been doing this for a really long time and so I think there's all these little boxes that kind of click that is like, if we're gonna work with any of them, Like this is the group to work with. Right. Because there's one because of the pastor, what she stands for and the work that she's done. And you can just look and see what happens within there and see that it's stuff that that is affirming to us as individuals, regardless of how you feel about like the religious stuff, which I understand and I get wholeheartedly. There's not like crosses everywhere. There's not religious iconography like it's obviously a church and it looks like a church in the sense that a church looks like a church yeah minus the iconography um but it's I don't know so I I want people to understand that like I want to be like it's not like that church but it is still a church you know um and so It's totally reasonable to have the fears, to have the anxieties, to even be like, I'm not going to do it. And one of the things that we're hoping to do is to be able to not have these things happen just here, but also being able to help connect people to the same services or the same people outside of this particular moment on this particular Saturday once a month. And eventually, maybe we'll be able to do it at a different location that might feel a little bit more comfortable for more people. But it is a safe space. They have a lot of space. They're not charging us. They're going to help with food and all these sorts of things. And so I think in a lot of ways with where we're at, it makes a lot of sense that there's somebody that we would collaborate with. And I personally have worked with them a lot for a couple of years now. personally I do vouch for it do vouch for it um but it is a church and it's full of people and people hurt people regardless of where you're at and so there's obviously some sense of bravery that it's going to take to come into the space but I would really encourage folks to lean into that if they're able me too I really I really hope that people will still go I think it's going to be really beneficial for a lot of reasons, I mean, it's gonna be nice to get help with like name changes, gender marker changes, all of those things, but also just to be amongst like-minded people that are going through the same thing and having similar experiences. I think there's so much value in that and regardless of where that takes place. And I know that It's going to be uncomfortable for a lot of people, but I really hope that you can push past that. And if you're uncomfortable, if you do go and you're uncomfortable for any reason, like you can pull me aside and talk to me about it because I have a lot of experience with that kind of thing just in recovery. I would almost exclusively work with people in recovery that had religious trauma because I would just be like, please don't leave. Don't leave because of this. I can offer you other options. You need to recover. Don't let this... god shit or religious shit get in the way of what you need for yourself to be okay and that's kind of what I would challenge in this particular situation don't let religion or the perception of religion or god or whatever keep you from getting what you need and that might be being with community getting help with your paperwork um whatever brings you there that you know don't let that rob that from you because at the end of the day then they win yeah it's interesting now because we're so under fire that we're starting to see unlikely allies and I think that's really cool well and you can look like the unitarian church in particular has been involved with social justice movements like I think probably since their inception you know and and if you look in a lot of history like even with like with Martin Luther King, and you look at a lot of the movements over the decades, church was involved. Often church was the oppressor, but it was also the liberator or a channel for the liberation, right? And so I think part of that is just figuring out because the church is powerful, is figuring out how can we tap into that power in order to really meet the times that we're in right now. I love that you mentioned Martin Luther King Jr. because it's his birthday today and he's one of my heroes. I love him so much. But you're absolutely right. I didn't really think about that. Yeah. I mean, Maya Angelou, you know, there's Frederick Douglass, you know, there's a lot of really great people who have spent time in churches and with church people working toward the liberation of all people, you know, and I don't see why. And religion has been harmful to them as well. You know what I mean? Like around, you know, there was religious religion was used to like say that slavery was okay. You know, religion has been used to, you know, press gay people and trans people and, you know, women and women. Exactly. Fucking terrible. So. Um, but I think it also has had the, it also, I think because it's, but it's so hard because it's like, it's like feeling like you're becoming friends with the oppressor. Oh, totally. Which is, it's not easy. And I, yeah. And I felt, I mean, when I met Sarah, I mean, she's really nice, lovely person. But when I initially met her, I was like, why are we meeting? Why are we meeting with a pastor? Yeah, genuinely. Cause I was like, why? Like, why is she here? Um, And I feel like in most instances, like I would stand by that, but with her, I think it's different. And I think right now, just because things are shifting and things are changing so quickly and we're so under attack that we're going to be needing to accept help and support where we can get it. You know, when it's coming from someone who genuinely wants to help and they're being authentically kind. And there's going to be times when, like, she's not actually even going to be there. Like, she's really just given us the space to take over and use as we fit. So, yeah. um it's not about even like you know it's not about them getting gold stars or you know whatever you get for doing good these days um exactly but like she's just like oh yeah I have a space like I mean they already did the paperwork party there and a lot of people turned out and it was great and so this is really just kind of like a super size me if you will and something that's hopefully well and it's something that's a little bit more trans and non-binary led I guess even though she works very closely with trans and non-binary people and they have been uh they were part of the process too so I don't I don't want to say that you know what I mean yeah I think it's really just about expanding it and building from it versus starting completely over from something new well I think that you're right I mean we've talked about it before where there are a lot of people right now that are interested in kind of capitalizing on how controversial, like, trans and non-binary people are, and this is not that. Like, when I met Sarah, she's really a cool, cool person, and I would have totally missed out on that if I would have just been like, you're a pastor, ew, you know? But... She would be like, yeah, I know. Yeah, but it's still, yeah. So I think that it's going to be an interesting intersection of people, I guess. It's the biggest takeaway I want people to get from this episode is that it might be uncomfortable, but try and push through it because it's you know, it's gonna be beneficial. Yeah. And tell us about it, like tell us about it. And if you have solution or ideas, like let us know as well. Yeah, absolutely. And like just envision kind of a little bit about what it would look like is that trans and non-binary people will greet you as you get there, take you into the space for coffee and snacks. And that could be all that you do. Hang out in a little cafe, eat coffees and snacks, and just chit-chat with folks. But there will also be these other opportunities where you could go off into another side room or whatever and meet with a lawyer or meet with a uh clerk of the court or meet with um another trans or non-binary person who's went through the process of getting documentation um they're also you know we're hoping to have like the boise trans collective and trans homing project and any other organizations that provide services to trans non-binary people we would love to invite you to be there with us so that we can let folks know about you and vice versa. So this really is going to be hopefully a safe space and probably maybe one of the very few places that is really for trans and non-binary people across the age spectrum as well. It's not like a twenty one and over scene. It's, you know, accessible. So if you you know use a wheelchair or have challenges in other ways it's accessible in in that way too um yeah and I think I mean I think folks might have a hard time getting there um but that might be something we can figure out and how we can help people get into the actual event if travel is an issue if travel is an issue and you want to go reach out to us see what we can do to try to make that happen Is there anything else we wanted to try to touch bases on in this conversation? I know we just felt like it was important to, I guess, put it out there, you know? Because we know that this is probably the things that people are thinking. Yeah, and I don't want people to think that TransJoy Boise is religious in any way, shape, or form because, like, absolutely not. and I I just worried that people would kind of equate like oh they're doing this in a church like maybe they're trying to talk about we've done some no no way yeah we've done some and I know part of that might be my issue I know I'm a chaplain so I'm kind of do a lot of spiritual so I know that can be confusing yeah but it's not religious I agree but some for some people it's not yeah um the nuance isn't clear I get that. I get that wholeheartedly. That's partially why I've gotten, I've become a chaplain is to be with other trans and non-binary and queer folks and help them deal with that religious trauma and help them get what they need to get their life and to live a life worth living. And sometimes we have to heal from some of that shit. And sometimes that is finding a different place spiritual understanding or just completely getting away but like there's a harm there it creates shame in us it creates um behavioral you know there's just some like I know a lot of my addiction and a lot of my challenges with addiction being in violent situations and circumstances we're all really based in the initial shame in being queer person and the belief that God no longer loved me or somehow I lost my soul, which is all bullshit. And that's still not something like, Like, I don't know, that's a lot to go into this conversation because the cafe has nothing to do with that. But I think it's just, I think we just wanted to make sure people understood, I guess. And there's a part of me, yeah, that I don't know. I just want my people to be taken care of. My people, not my people, but my community, the people that I get to call friends or be in community with. And like, I'm looking, I want to look out for us just like I want people looking out for me, you know? I would never intentionally invite somebody into a space to be harmed. And yet I know I can't promise that it's not going to be a good place for you. And that's something you have to determine for yourself. And if it is a space issue, please still reach out to us and we'll find ways to meet with you one-on-one or however way we need to get you connected and get you the support that you need. So hang with us. Yeah, and if anyone is struggling with their recovery, reach out. I mean, that is something that I genuinely enjoy helping people with I've done it for sixteen years so you know I would I would love to help if there's any way that I can I know that it's going to be difficult for people in recovery in recovery from anything really in the next four years because it's going to be so stressful like you're just barraged by all of this horrible news and all of these things these terrible realities your rights being taken away and of course you naturally are just like what can I do to to kind of numb this to soften the blow yeah exactly so and hopefully that's something that trans right boise can do is help soften the blow of life and the things that are coming at us because it is hard and it's real and that's not to mean you yeah I don't know because some people you're going to use substances and you're going to like and that's going to be okay for you yeah but for some of us we can't and so that's you also know that there's hope and there's you know a soft place to land as well and use fentanyl testing strips please yes wow how did this how did this conversation feel good good I think it think it'll clear it up I just had a lot of anxiety about you know people thinking that we were trying to sell really or like trick them into being like hey let us help you with something really important and as soon as they were there just like let's talk about jesus no that's not in it at all so yeah and I think that's the biggest thing was just having transparency and working towards something that hopefully will be better for more. But until we, but I think one of the, I was having a conversation with some, with another advocate the other day, and they were like planning this like in a year and this in like, eighteen months and this, and I'm like, but what about fucking now? Like, we can't wait a year or eighteen months. I mean, that's cool for the long game. But like, what are we doing right now? And what can we do right now? To me, that's what's important to me. I'm happy that all that shit is happening for the long game, but I feel like we're really at a point where we've got to be thinking about how can we help and be with one another right now. It almost feels impossible to be planning something that far out just because of how uncertain things are right now. Yeah, and there's still probably going to be a need for trans and non-binary folks to have some sort of support. You know what I mean? That's probably trans and non-binary-led. Yeah. no matter how things play out, whether, yeah. But I know, but it's like, yeah. Yeah, it's just stressful. You know, it's... an interesting time to live through. I feel like I've said that several times for the last decade, really. Yeah, right. No, it's just about the pandemic. Like, oh, what an interesting time to live through. Or even in twenty sixteen when Trump was elected the first time. Wow, what an interesting time to live through. It's like it just keeps fucking happening and getting worse. And I'm just like, I heard there's this Twitter thread that I'll have to link it somewhere because it kind of cracks me up, but it scares me. Remember when the world was supposed to end in twenty twelve? Oh, yeah. It was like the like the Mayan calendar or something. What was that called? Y-to-K, right? No, is that before? It was two thousand. Oh, I don't know. No, in twenty twelve, it was like the Aztec or Mayan calendar. I don't remember. But YTK was a thing. That also happened. Gosh, that was, you know, I'm not completely. But they thought that. the world was supposed to end in twenty twelve and it was like this huge thing right and this guy goes into it thinking that and he's speculating but he backs it up with like credible citations that the world sort of did end in twenty twelve and now this is like an alternate reality and he goes through all of these absolutely bizarro things that have happened since then and at first you're reading it and you're like okay this guy's fucking crazy but by the end of it you're just kind of like hmm maybe did it that's how did it end that's how conspiracy works yeah and I'm just perpetuating because I found it I'm gonna I'm gonna find it and link it because like it's really interesting I mean so much is so much is about perspective and point of view I mean like a lot of people feel like we're in we're in war already with like social media and like media wars and all this sort of stuff there's like maybe we are like shooting people with guns and which is happening too but but there's still like these wars these devists I mean even thinking about this with trans rights and non-binary rights and whatever in some ways this is kind of a war and they are taking this out they are taking those out but absolutely yeah I think we're rambling now yeah it's feeling like that's the end do you want to say goodbye sure uh thank you all for being here with us this week and I hope that you are at least thinking about going to the cafe and we will see you next week yes stay close to your loved ones bye-bye