The Hidden Imprints of Trauma in the Body and Nervous System | E60

What if healing isn’t just physical?

In this deeply thought-provoking episode, Dr. Ayla Wolf sits down with somatic practitioner and Inner Space Technique regression therapist Bre Hibbs to explore the fascinating relationship between trauma, the nervous system, body memory, and healing beyond the physical body.

Together, they discuss the idea that our bodies may store not only physical trauma, but also emotional experiences, subconscious conditioning, stress patterns, and even energetic imprints that continue influencing our health, behavior, pain, and recovery long after an event has passed. 

The conversation explores:

•  How trauma can become “stored” in the body 
•  The connection between chronic pain and emotional stress 
•  Somatic awareness and nervous system regulation 
•  Dissociation and feeling disconnected from the body 
•  Why some people remain “stuck” despite trying many therapies 
•  The role of subconscious conditioning in health and behavior 
•  Meditation, energy awareness, and subtle body practices 
•  How slowing down and reconnecting with the body may support healing 

Bre also shares insights from her work in somatic healing, meditation-based regression therapy, and yoga, including practical ways people can begin developing a deeper awareness of their own body and nervous system.

This episode offers a compassionate and expansive perspective on healing—one that bridges neuroscience, somatics, consciousness, and the wisdom of the body.

If you’re navigating post-concussion syndrome, chronic symptoms, or trauma stored in the body, listen through and see what lands. Subscribe for more concussion recovery conversations, share this with someone who feels stuck, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway.

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Medical disclaimer: this video or podcast is for general informational purposes only, and does not constitute the practice of medicine or other professional healthcare services, including the giving of medical advice. No doctor patient relationship is formed. The use of this information and materials included is at the user's own risk. The content of this video or podcast is not intended to be a substitute for medical advice diagnosis or treatment. Consumers of this information should seek the advice of a medical professional for any and all health related issues. 

Transcript

Somatic Movement And The Welcome

Bre Hibbs 0:00

That invitation for people to enter different parts of themselves and to let the body, the physical body, the muscles, you know, the ligaments, the connective tissue to kind of highlight either what's stuck or what feels really good, or just what wants or needs a couple, like you said, a couple rounds of breath. Like you can just stay in this shape that it doesn't have a name. That's usually also the way I lead. It's like I'm not going to prescribe every single pose by name. It's like you're going to find something that feels good or necessary in your body and then, you know, pause there. It's going to look different than your neighbors.

Dr. Ayla Wolf 0:35

Welcome to Life After Impact, the Concussion Recovery Podcast. I'm Dr. Ayla Wolf , and I'll be hosting today's episode where we help you navigate the often confusing, frustrating, and overwhelming journey of concussion and brain injury recovery. This podcast is your go-to resource for actionable information. Whether you're dealing with a recent concussion, struggling with post-concussion syndrome, or just feeling stuck in your healing process, know that you are not alone. This podcast can be your guide and partner in recovery, helping you build a better life after impact. Bre Hibbs, welcome to Life After Impact, the Concussion Recovery Podcast. Hello, so excited to be here. Yeah, so you are an inner space technique regression therapist, which is a type of somatic-based bodywork. And I've had the opportunity, I mean, we've known each other for about 10 or more years now, maybe 12. And we've had the opportunity to be at numerous different retreats together. I've had the opportunity to receive your work, but I would love to just have you talk a little bit more about your background and the work that you do, and specifically in the context of trauma, because there's so much out there now on the internet these days that talks about how you know physical and emotional trauma can get stored in the body. And that's really kind of at the heart of the work that you do, which is very sensitive work, and you just have such great energy and you create such a great safe space. And so I would love for you to give an introduction of who you are and then your journey through the process of learning this type of body work and how that's evolved, and then we can talk more about some specifics. How does that sound? Yes, sounds great.

Bre Hibbs 2:27

Okay, super. Um yeah, I mean, 10 or a little bit more years ago, I was kind of just starting out as a yoga teacher, but was really engaged in and looking for a either a modality and or a tradition with depth. And so I tried over the years, I tried a lot of things, both as a receiver of lots of kinds of body work and energy work, and then also um, you know, went to some shorter term trainings over time to see what was really for me. And um, about six years ago, I found a particular school in a particular modality that just

Bree’s Path Into Inner Space Work

Bre Hibbs 3:05

spoke to and speaks to everything inside of me. And so for the last um three years, I've been studying full-time at a meditation retreat center that also offers training in these therapeutic and healing modalities. And that has been what I've been doing for the last number of years so that I could become a practitioner of this work. And so, inner space techniques, what that means is a um, and and regression therapy within this context is it's not hypnosis-based. So the inner space techniques points to using meditation-based techniques to go into the inner world, the inner landscape, the inner space, and from there allowing things that are inside to rise to the surface. And it's exactly like what you said, as far as um, you know, people know the the terms kind of issues are stored in the tissues or the book, the body keeps the score. That is absolutely one level of it. It's that our our cells, our tissues, our body has essentially memory and stores anything from traumatic events, for sure, as you said, but also any events that have some level of gravitas or gravity in our lives. And so sometimes those can also be really joyful or just really like high anxiety or high excitement times. And so all of that can get stored. Um, and then from there, there's an additional aspect, which is from the perspective of like an energy body model or a subtle body model, which is that some of those imprints actually also live at levels that are not even physical. Um, and so that can be pointed to in something like our energy body. If someone wants to entertain the an idea or a philosophy or cosmology that we have bodies that aren't just our physical body. And so that modality, the inner space techniques, is a way of through going inside, you can access the body memory side or the somatic side of things, and then you can also access these other energetic places where imprints are also stored that are sometimes harder to get to. And so that's the inner space technique, that's the regression therapy and the um the kind of idea or like a main principle of why it's helpful to source or to, you know, work on healing both or all levels of something like trauma or impact.

Dr. Ayla Wolf 5:27

Yeah, you just said something that was kind of mind-blowing to me because everybody talks about how we store negative negative emotions and trauma in our body. Nobody ever talks about the fact that we can store like good events or exciting things in our body either. And I'm like, well, what does that manifest as? Uh, and funny that we only ever focus on the storing negative things. Nobody ever talks about storing positive things.

Bre Hibbs 5:54

Yeah, I mean, I think the the best example is probably um the feelings that we get sometimes when we, for example, travel back to a place from earlier in our life or our childhood. And there's some level of um, you know, like depth of feeling of memory or longing for a time in our lives that was simpler or fill in the blank. Um, and the reason why it's more than just a memory,

Trauma Memory In Body And Energy

Bre Hibbs 6:30

and I think usually people can relate to this example, is there'll be like this welling up of something like emotion or feeling. And whether it's, you know, being moved to tears or whether it's um gosh, I'm even forgetting the word right now. What's the word when you have like a um like a longing for a past moment? Anyways, that that's funny that I can't remember the word, but this this feeling of like nostalgia? Yes, exactly. Yes, okay. Um very strong nostalgia. You know, I have it sometimes when like I drive by my high school, you know, and it's like there's no part of me that wants to relive my high school years. And for some reason, when I'm like up on that side of the hill in Bend, Oregon, it's like something in me remembers very strongly, much more than just a memory in my mind, this time of life that was, you know, me in high school. And so that that's an example of something that can be stored also.

Dr. Ayla Wolf 7:28

Yeah. You know, one of the things that uh, and maybe I'm, you know, sometimes we can tell ourselves story, whether those stories are true or not is a totally different conversation. But I feel like sometimes my body has a memory of an event, say that happened, let's just say September 1st or whatever. Something happened September 1st, it was a big deal, and it caused me to be very depressed or whatever. And then three years go by, and then for some reason I'm like super depressed in September, right? And then all of a sudden it's kind of like, oh, is my body just remembering that three years ago, like at this moment in time, I got super depressed, and then my body's just kind of remembering that, and it's like kind of coming up because now it's the exact same time of year. And so I've had those moments where I've just kind of wondered, is what I'm feeling now actually just some bodily memory of what I was going through years ago that's kind of like my ex subconscious calendar is remembering.

Bre Hibbs 8:26

Yeah, I feel like there's multiple levels that are so interesting, but you know, something like seasonal affect disorder. I don't even know if it's a disorder. I think it's honestly our human and animal bodies being like slowed down, you know, like this is not the season to do fill in the blank. Um, but I think there is some level of like our body clock, our natural rhythms, our the way that our ancestors used to live in alignment with, you know, the sun, the moon, the planets, the stars, the seasons. That is a way bigger part or affects us way more than maybe modern day humans either want to admit, andor with all of modern day technology and the fact that, you know, we can have as much light as we want way before the sun comes up and way after the sun comes up, like we can be very productive outside of the daylight times. I think we're on some level, very basic level, we're overriding some of those rhythms. Um, and then the the specific thing of like a date or a specific, you know, month or a specific season. There is a level, I mean, it might be a good time to just introduce something like the fourfold model of subtle bodies. And I think the disclaimer here is this is one model of many models of energy and subtle bodies. So it isn't that it's the only one, it's just a lens through which we can look at things. And so in that model, we have it's pretty simple. We have a physical body, that's usually pretty obvious to people. We have an etheric body or a body of prana or chi, which is our life force. Those words are sometimes also familiar to people. The third level is we have an emotional/slash mental body. In this model, it's called the astral body. And then we have a higher self. And the something like these imprints, whether they're quote positive, negative, or neutral, but something big happens and then it's remembered in the physical body at the level of cells, tissues, body memory. Um, we also have sometimes imprints in the astral body and at the emotional mental level of us. And so the example or like the kind of ancient word to point to there is samskara. It's a Sanskrit word, and it essentially means an emotional or mental scar.

Dr. Ayla Wolf 10:48

And the samsara, this is samskara.

Bre Hibbs 10:53

Yes, with a K, exactly. But interestingly, I mean, you can see how the root might be slightly related because samsara is this ongoing reincarnation into the cycle of suffering and reincarnation until we become enlightened. And so you can see how samskara is could be connected to, which is we keep getting these samskaras, whether it's just in this life or if someone believes in past lives, we have them from past lives. And then we just reincarnate over and over into bodies that essentially repeat our core samskaras. So we experience these things life after life, or again, if someone doesn't believe in past lives, in this life, you can use the example of like, well, I just keep dating the same person. They just kind of look a little bit different, but they basically act the same.

Dr. Ayla Wolf 11:41

So that could be an inference. Right. And maybe they have certain characteristics of one of my parents. Totally, exactly. Yeah.

Bre Hibbs 11:50

And multiple potentially layers of either small samaras or big samkaras from when we were children, for example.

Dr. Ayla Wolf 11:59

Uh it's kind of that thing of our unconscious tapes that we run kind of run our show. And the bigger the gap is between our conscious understanding

Nostalgia, Seasons, And Body Calendars

Dr. Ayla Wolf 12:10

of who we are and what we're doing and what we're thinking and the stories we tell ourselves versus our unconscious mind, the bigger that gap is, the more out of control we are in our lives, the more reactive we are versus being proactive and kind of in choosing to be in control of our thoughts, our actions, our behaviors, our words. And so is that part, I mean, I know that you're not doing talk therapy, but I would imagine that there's still this kind of integration piece that you see happen between kind of someone's subconscious and their conscious with the work that you do.

Bre Hibbs 12:44

Yeah, absolutely. It's actually a pretty big, it's probably one of the couple of like main pillars or principles of something like this form of regression work, but also is really present in, you know, both Western models of psychology and then also, you know, eastern or ancient models of spiritual work, which is this principle of deconstruction and de-identification, essentially. And so what you're pointing to are these levels of conditioning that we all have as humans being alive on the planet right now. We'll just keep it pretty simple. If you're a human alive on the planet right now, you have conditioning, period. Even if you don't want to look at it, and even if you don't want to admit it, or even if some people don't even some people love their conditioning, you know, some people want to get free of it, and some people are like, I don't, I don't even care. So no judgment in any direction. Um, but essentially, this to some degree, we think we're really free and we actually aren't, which is exactly what you're saying. There's all these subconscious things that are kind of running our decisions in the background. And so when I say deconstruction, what I mean is deconstruction can be at the level of belief systems. So someone grows up in a family andor a religion andor in a country where there's certain belief systems. We all have those. There's levels of values. I like to ask people when I do workshops or when sometimes in one-on-one work, it's like, okay, so you value this, you have these values. It's like, did you choose those or did someone else or some other did your job give them to you? Do you value it because you have this job? And then why do you have that job? Do you have that job because you grew up in a household that had, you know, a certain amount of chaos? And so now you've become a scammer. I mean, this is kind of a funny example, right? Like their values, you know, our values come from somewhere. Usually they aren't chosen unless we've done some like, you know, intentional work around that. You can deconstruct worldviews. So, like the huge big picture of how someone views the world, like that's a pretty big level of conditioning that essentially may or may not be connected to reality. Um, and I mean reality in kind of a capital R sense. If someone's interested in getting closer to real reality, it's like deconstruction of those levels has to happen so that the subconscious, exactly like what you're saying, isn't running the show. And I have an example that's similar to the scammers example, although I'm not a scammer, which is I had a past life regression experience a number of years ago about, you know, being in a woman in whatever era, it maybe doesn't even matter what the story is, but you know, being victimized, kind of over and over, tortured, et cetera, fill in the blank. And I studied in this life, I was super passionate about I studied women's studies and feminism and was an activist for like most of the early part of my career after leaving my master's degree. And I just saw, like, it's not that women's studies and feminism doesn't matter to me anymore or doesn't matter to a higher part of me, but I could just see, I was like, I was drawn to that particular program, that particular time of my life because I have a samskara from a past life. I was like trying to make it right, you know, trying to create justice, trying, trying to create equality because I have a samskara around that. And that's just a crazy thing to see. It's like I didn't make that choice from a place of freedom. And again, it was beautiful and is beautiful. It's still a huge part of my life. But now I've like chosen those values from a slightly different place because I saw the wounded part that also was a part of it.

Dr. Ayla Wolf 16:26

Okay, so um, let's talk about the the body as a historian. Let's get back to the somatics here.

Bre Hibbs 16:33

Cool. Well, so there's um in this model that we've sort of introduced in the fourfold body subtle uh fourfold model of subtle bodies, there's a little bit of a reversal of causality. And so, in particularly a very Western mindset or a Western worldview, causality is usually at the level of either the physical body and or its functions or functionalities. I specifically, I think in the realm of healing, you know, the nervous system is a big one. It's like we point to the nervous system or some level of dysregulation happening, and then it causes all these other things to happen. And so, in something like, again, just offering it up as a lens, in something like the fourfold model of subtle bodies, this would also be true of like if someone is familiar with the Vedic system of the koshas, um if someone's familiar with, you know, the chakra system, something like this would be relevant, which is that the level of causality is non-physical. And the physical body is actually just a receptor for things that are happening on much, much more subtle levels. So, in thinking about some of this or kind of applying what we're talking about as the body is the historian, the samskara that's in the mental-emotional body, the astral body, that imprint is the level that causes other things to then go awry in the physical body, whether it's the nervous system or you know, issues being stored in the tissues, et cetera, et cetera. So the thing that happens first, let's say, or closer to first, closer to the source, is the energetic scar or the samskara. And so it's just, it's again, I'm not saying that that's the truth. Just offering it up as, oh, it's it's kind of interesting to think about like if I'm in a car accident, and obviously your area of extreme, amazing, beautiful expertise that I'm always in awe in is around concussions. It's like,

Samskara And The Unconscious Autopilot

Bre Hibbs 18:40

is the thing that happened the impact down here on the level of the physical body and what happened in the brain? Of course, but also at this other level, is the is the impact somewhere in, I'm pointing up here, even though it's not really dimensionally up here, but at the level of the mental emotional body closer to the source, or that's the cause, and then all these other kind of things are like trickle-down effects. So even though I don't know all the brain science around, or even close to all the brain science around concussions, it's like, oh, what could someone do? And I know you do this work too, to unwind or help heal or transform the level that is like not on the physical plane at all when someone comes to you for support or someone comes to meet, you know, for a different kind of support. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ayla Wolf 19:30

Yeah. I mean, this might be a little bit different, but I will say that having studied Qigong, having studied Tai Chi, having studied craniosacral therapy and biodynamic craniosacral therapy, sometimes information just kind of comes to me whether it's true or not, but there's just different impressions that kind of come to me. And there are times when I will have somebody who maybe was just recently in a car accident and they're laying on my table, and there's just kind of this sense of like this person is not in their body right now. Like it's just, you know, there, there's it's like something is is not grounded, right? And um, what is often beautiful is is when you see that shift. And uh sometimes acupuncture can be the vector for which all of a sudden um you're inserting needles into the body, and then the person is just all of a sudden, it's just like they're they're there, they're back in their body, they're engaging with you, they're present, they're making eye contact, and all of a sudden their their personality shines through, and you're like, oh, hi, like, welcome back to your body.

Bre Hibbs 20:32

Yeah. Yeah, that's such a um, again, I'll just keep bringing it back to the fourfold model because that's kind of my my realm that I play in or my sandbox. It really points to this. We have just a kind of further divide. We have a lower complex, which is the physical body and the etheric body. So our life force and our physical body down here. And then we have the astral body, mental, emotional, and our higher selves. And in this model, the upper complex, which is the astral body and the ego, or the, and I mean capital E ego. Sorry, I wasn't actually going to use that word because it confuses people, but it's the spirit. At night, when we dream, for example, that upper complex disconnects a little bit and goes and travels. And that's that's what sleeping and that's what dreaming is is traveling through the astral spheres, you know, which is not physical at all. It's not grounded in physical reality. So what that points to is we have a part of us that can exist independent to a degree from the physical body. So dreaming is one example, you know, traveling at night and dreaming is an example of the upper complex having some space from the lower complex. And trauma is another example of people create or experience, or as a result of the impact or the trauma, that level of separation. And it's true, they might exist for a certain period of weeks, months, or sometimes years without being super connected in the way that, like you and I, as grounded people. kind of in our bodies right now. They just are existing on some other in in a totally different state. And it is really, really healing to have a practitioner help someone in a really, you know, safe, trauma-informed way, whether it's gentle or sort of like a snapback, you know, but like to help someone navigate that part of themselves back to like reintegrate into the the lower complex essentially. And yes, acupuncture is such a beautiful way, one of many ways of it.

Dr. Ayla Wolf 22:28

And we have these, you know, we have these medical terms where we talk about dissociated states. And yet I think there's like so much more to unpack there in terms of what is that really and what is actually going on. And you know, in medicine, of course, we make it sound like this very kind of sterile thing, but we talk about dissociatives, right? Whether it's a a pharmaceutical or a plant medicine, like there are certain things that are dissociatives, but then there's also people who, like you said, they're walking around in dissociative states and they're not able to really fully integrate what's going on. And so I think there's just so much there that we still don't really fully understand. And obviously when we're only looking at it from purely a biological perspective, we're probably missing a lot. And you know that there have been certain times when I've worked with somebody and they're just not getting better. They're not getting better. They're not getting better. And so it's kind of like well this isn't working for you. So they go off and then they try something else and it might be some kind of like energy healing. And then they come back to me and they're like, oh well I went to this person, I did an energy healing session or I did Reiki or I did something and all of a sudden they're like 95% better. And I wouldn't have chosen that modality for you as like the thing that was going to turn the corner for you in such a dramatic way, but it did. And it's like maybe there's again a whole lot going on that I just wasn't picking up on from that energy perspective. Totally.

Bre Hibbs 24:02

I mean this is really like okay if I was going to say one thing that's really powerful about certain kinds of modalities where there's complete mystery, right? It's like there's certain things that at this time in human evolution that and and in our in let's say like spiritual teachings it's like the ordinary mind will not understand. So I'm just so it's a so it's a mystery. But it like feels like it has some kind of depth or truth you know behind it when people say it. And I think this is one of them which is the that you know let's say it's like okay someone's disconnected for any number of reasons they're upper complex a little bit they're disassociated is one of the clinical terms for sure and is a good term. And having a modality that reconnects that essentially what has occurred is someone has become reconnected to some degree with their highest spirit. And in a lot of these traditions not just one but many traditions the spirit is like the sun. So you imagine the earth let's say the earth had to go through a period of being further disconnected from the sun than we currently are life is hard life life would be really hard. Like we would struggle we wouldn't be able to grow food. We ourselves depend on sunlight. And so by bringing someone's son essentially like helping someone reconnect with their son, it essentially like sets back in motion the

The Body As Historian After Impact

Bre Hibbs 25:30

whole natural ecosystem of how for mysterious reasons we ourselves our bodies our spirits are any level of like know how to reorganize around that organizing principle of the sun. So it's like if someone a practitioner can help someone land back with some level of their spirit there's a whole bunch of natural healing let's call it or like innate healing that people's systems, bodies, minds, spirits just know how to do because they've gone back into orbit with themselves. That's the kind of a good analogy. And I would say again like that's almost like at the heart of the work I do actually it's hard to lead with that like oh I'm reconnecting someone with their son. But like that's really through a session or a series of session if even the tiniest little glimpse of someone having me not telling someone they're having that experience but someone genuinely having an experience of like a moment of glimpsing their own timelessness for example like themselves at every age in this life it does way more healing than anything I could ever do to someone.

Dr. Ayla Wolf 26:41

Yeah, yeah. And I often have said when I teach and when I talk, it I I've made the comment that especially with the the people that I work with that have had lingering post-concussion syndrome, many times when there is just really intense emotional trauma and a history of post-traumatic stress, whether it's related to the the thing that caused the concussion or not, I just there are certain people where it's like I can do I can work so hard for that person. I can give them so many different therapies and treatments and they just don't they're just not getting better. They're so stuck and it's kind of at that point where I'm like okay there's something else going on here that you need a different type of modality whether and and it's again it's like is that modality somatic work is it meditation is it breath work is it counseling is it EMDR? Like there's so many things out there. But there's certainly a lot of times when I just have to step back and say there's a blockage here and I um you know I'm not the one that wants to go hunting for it. And I don't know what it is, but you need to figure that out in some way. And I feel like either it's through kind of the psychology or the energy work. Let's like kind of one of those two things that needs to be explored further to figure out what is this block that is preventing somebody from integrating all of the other fabulous therapies that they're undergoing that simply aren't helping them.

Bre Hibbs 28:15

Yeah. Yeah I definitely I don't I don't claim to know the answer either. I know you're not asking me for the answer but what it makes me think of or is um this again it's just it's a little bit of maybe like a mindset or a worldview reframe which is someone being able to ask themselves something like on how many levels of my being can I give care and love to this thing that's really hard right now. And so what are I you know what are the physical things that support me? Usually people have some idea of that um you know whether it's um eating well or there's some basic like health and wellness things that people can do. And I by basic I don't necessarily mean always easy but like some some foundational things. And then people getting to ask themselves like well how could I treat this? How could I address this? How could I give care on the level of my life force body or my psychological mental emotional body how could I give what are things like I think sometimes it's also like what are things that I just love that I don't give myself enough time or permission to do? And that could be something that reconnects someone with just some inherent kind of joy and that can do a lot as well. It doesn't have to always look like finding 10 practitioners. I know you weren't saying that either but having 10 practitioners do like 10 different things all at once sometimes that's not even helpful anyways um but what are things that are simple but then people really love and then you know that can set something in motion too.

Dr. Ayla Wolf 30:05

Can can you think of an example of maybe somebody who let's just take someone who has like chronic low back pain or some kind of chronic pain and maybe they've been to all kinds of great therapists. Maybe they've seen chiropractors and they've done physical therapy and they were doing acupuncture or massage or whatever. They're doing all these things and they're not getting better. Have you seen somebody kind of come to you for this type of somatic work and regression therapy and have a significant change in their physical symptom simply by doing this kind of work? Yeah.

Bre Hibbs 30:40

Yeah it's a it's a great question and yes um I myself have chronic low back pain and it's both an ongoing thing that I work with and it's also um something that I've seen um a lot of a lot of benefits and a lot of um transformation essentially I also have um uh endometriosis so my periods have been really really bad especially for the last 10 years of my life so some of the things also that I'm about to say have also helped with some of that. Again it's not gone I still have instead of having a bad really really bad moon cycle every month I have it like every three or four months let's say so definite improvement. I'll say something really broad that's not specific to low backs first, which is uh through an energy body or subtle body model like this, one of the one of the things that causes a lot of um uh grief is the wrong word because I don't mean emotional grief, but a lot of challenge in a lot of ways for all of us is just some level of really deep grasping. And the the grasp is um in the this fourfold model of subtle bodies it's so we've talked about when the upper complex someone disassociates that could be something where the upper complex kind of lifts away from the lower complex people are walking through life in something akin to kind of like a sleep or a dream state. That's essentially like a good analogy. There's also as humans alive on the planet in the 21st century all of us are grasped let's just say this isn't specific to any one group of people but where the lower complex essentially the astral body the mental emotional squeezes our life force or our etheric body tremendously and it's essentially like we're all walking around squeezed. And that squeeze manifests differently in different bodies anatomically and manifests in different bodies uh energetically. And so what I would say or do with someone who's experiencing chronic low back pain or maybe even any kind of chronic pain is I wouldn't necessarily approach it super differently than I would approach anybody, but what we would look for is a somatic way in or a handle into the physical sensation to

Dissociation And Coming Back Home

Bre Hibbs 33:10

start and then look for some kind of source maybe and that might be one or more sessions of going back in time. You know, so regression meaning like let's not try to go back to the earliest memory in your childhood where you remember this pain, but like let's just go back to like either a couple months ago or maybe a couple years ago where there's a significant memory of this really um like uh uh making something in your life really hard like whatever that might be and so starting to look back at earlier and earlier times or examples and then from there start to see if those like my my back used to go out. You know, I would be like completely laid up in bed. So starting to look at like okay what was happening in the weeks or months leading to my back going out was I in a time of high stress was it like when I was younger was it like right before finals or right after finals like I almost like my back would go out almost every Christmas like I would finish my my huge push in college or my master's program and then I would go home and something in me would just totally let go but then also my back would go out. So I think looking at patterns is obviously like a very helpful tool. And then the other side of that is what in meditation or this work as well we would call trying to cultivate peripheral awareness. And the the difference between a grasp is like a very, you know, something is like very tight and very grasped focused at the center. And I don't mean that that's very conscious for people, but again we all are kind of in that state. And then starting to whether it's through meditation or yoga or other like starting to learn how to be a little bit more peripheral sometimes. And that is a total long-term training like that isn't going to provide immediate relief for sure but it's gonna start to train me as someone who's very grasped I also have a lot of fire in my astrological charts. But like this this starting to like go through life a little bit softer, a little bit more peripheral a little bit gentler and that can again as a long-term solution it can be like a a way of using a um a model of consciousness. So model of consciousness being okay we're either grasp and focus at the center or we're peripheral like being able to do both of things is a really helpful thing to be able to do by choice essentially. So when someone's sitting in their uh chair at work and they feel their whole body tense and their low back chronic low back pain really inflamed tools for starting to be like okay how can I relax my physical body? How can I let my eyesight like my physical eyesight be more peripheral like okay seeing out to the edges of the room like there's all these somatic practices that help create a little bit more peripherality and a little less grasp in the moment. That was a long answer but it was a few layers.

Dr. Ayla Wolf 36:10

Okay and and tell me if I'm kind of on point or not here but this gr this concept of grasping it kind of reminds me of if we're not in the present moment, we are often either thinking about the past, whether that's good or bad, uh, or we are worrying about the future um I would definitely fall into that camp where I feel like I am so often stuck in my head about my to my my perpetual and very long to-do list, right? I feel like I've been hearing if I hear myself saying out loud lately, the thing I've been saying a lot is I feel like my entire existence is one big giant to-do list. And that is like for me that sense of being grasped of I am just constantly thinking about what do I have to accomplish in the next minute, in the next hour, in the next day and in the next month and in the next year. And that kind of takes my breath away right kind of gives me this feeling of like and as soon as one thing gets off of my plate two more things get stacked on my plate. And so um to to feel like you're drowning uh is that sense of being grasped, I think too, right? And so what you're saying is the more you can be in the moment and let go and like just not be so drowning in in the the future um your body then can be in a more physically relaxed place and something like low back pain might actually get a little bit better.

Bre Hibbs 37:52

Yeah. Yeah definitely because there's there's very obvious levels of our grasping if if we if we pause and look at them similar to what you're saying, there's some obvious levels I can relate to everything that you just said about to-do lists and being a very driven person and you know having a lot of creative energy and um showing up for a lot of people in my life. And so there's there's obvious reasons and then just to throw something in that's that's a little bit outside of the obvious reasons, it's like somewhere as like in our animal bodies because we share a lot of our physiological, anatomical and even you know nervous system levels with animal bodies we there's there is an inherent survival grasp that we all just basically have. And that one we probably aren't ever going to let go of completely, but it's kind of powerful through whether it's just through like hearing these words and being like, oh I've never thought of that or through something like a systematic meditation practice, a systematic regression practice, a systematic fill like spiritual practice fill in the blink there could there's a lot of avenues. But to start to feel where in our systems we hold some level of really innate grasp where essentially what's driving all of us all day every day is survival, trying not to die, trying to work our way up some kind of animalistic ladder of sorts. And again there's higher modes of all of this like service and you know people wanting to be successful and being really creative. I'm not necessarily pointing to all of that, but underneath all of that

Chronic Pain, Grasping, And Softening Focus

Bre Hibbs 39:40

for all of us, there is an innate pretty deep survival grasp. And so that's interesting on kind of like a philosophical or esoteric level if anyone wants to take take it and run to their practitioner or their therapist.

Dr. Ayla Wolf 39:54

And then on the day-to-day level it's like yeah where do you where do we just find ourselves sitting at our computer my shoulder like sometimes I'll be like my shoulders are up to my ears and I'm typing and I'm like breathing heavy and it's like dude this does not call for that level of response you know yeah yeah yeah yeah and those moments where we find ourselves maybe overreacting to something really could serve as one of those um check-in points to be like oh why did I just have that level of response um my life is not being threatened right I'm my survival grasp is not the one that's happening right now.

Bre Hibbs 40:37

Yep.

Dr. Ayla Wolf 40:38

Yeah. Okay so let's talk about this idea of how do you as a practitioner help someone to have some kind of transformational healing without trying to force it.

Bre Hibbs 40:54

Yeah that is uh as a practitioner it's a really beautiful you know journey to walk with someone as someone who's received a lot of as a clip a lot of modalities as a client it's such a important mindset for me. It's like I always want everything to be faster and more efficient. You know I'm like why isn't my healing going faster? Why isn't this changing more rapidly? Um and so that I think there's probably a couple of levels um and I know in my experience with you as a practitioner this happens which is setting some kind of a space or a container whether it's a one-on-one space or a group container for there to be just some initial like slowing down changing the pace letting there be space for someone to kind of enter parts of ourselves that are maybe not as like mentally intelligent but are that that are deeply wise deeply have a sense of deep knowing that's that's one aspect of it I feel like always is the container um and then there's you know there's a certain line of that I or we that I use in this specific form of regression therapy which is dialogue and questions and that's really common across different modalities obviously but um questions that try to surpass or that in a partnership of working with someone inside of a session for example questions that I hope that someone's ordinary mind doesn't try to answer or that we can slightly and slowly start to get below the surface of some of those oops really conditioned levels and start to let other deeper levels respond to questions. And that's really an art I think it's part of it is making sure that when we first start someone goes into a mindful state or moves into that inner space, the inner space techniques moves into that inner space so that they're in a different state of mind or a different state of consciousness so that other parts of them start to respond. And then I think another thing is holding as a practitioner I'm sure you do this all the time which is the art of someone usually comes to us as practitioners with a very specific question, challenge or like thing that they want to work on. And it's like how to hold that really you know sacredly and important in the space while also not being super attached or too attached to outcomes in a way that like other possibilities and other spontaneous things can arise that might have a lot of deep meaning or a lot of transformative impact. And it might be nonlinear like someone might come to four to six sessions to work on a very specific like behavior change that they haven't gotten traction around. And we might go through a very Very like winding process over those four to six sessions. Um, but ultimately it's like as a practitioner, I'm still holding that intent desire-longing that the person came with. And hopefully by the end of those sessions, we've at least woven something of coherence together that both answers their initial question or longing, and then also maybe some other really cool things or magical things have also unfolded.

Dr. Ayla Wolf 44:30

Yeah. Okay, that was a lot. Um and I I I was tracking you. I was tracking you the whole time. Um I think it speaks to again going this back to the idea of people sometimes will come in with an agenda and their maybe their body's own wisdom has a different agenda that comes up and shows up in that moment. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

Bre Hibbs 45:00

And that's uh I mean, I think that's probably one of the greatest gifts of this, you know, your initial question that I kind of went on a tangent about, maybe, but the the not forcing is such a in some ways it's very subtle. It's like we all are sort of like, yeah, I get it. And then on another level, um, when there's something that feels kind of dire or important in our lives, it's it's really easy to be like, but I want this, I need this to change. And that's just kind of running in the background, let's say. And so to see the wisdom of the body rise up, let's say, or this the somatic wisdom or some deeper part of someone kind of rise up and be like, but this other thing is more important, or like this is the roundabout way to get to this other thing. I mean, that's that's so beautiful. I uh I think that can sometimes be seen as a roadblock. Probably not. I think most people really like honor and respect those things, but it really is almost like the the breadcrumb. Like that's kind of the point.

Dr. Ayla Wolf 46:06

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, as somebody who does a lot of acupuncture and hands-on work, you know, uh after 20 years of that, it is no longer shocking or surprising to me when all of a sudden somebody bursts into tears as soon as I touch a part of their spine or I insert a needle into the heart point in the inner ear, and all of a sudden they burst out crying. Like these things are, and it's, you know, it surprises people sometimes when they're that's their reaction. Um, doesn't surprise me anymore, but uh and sometimes it surprises people that they're holding on to emotion uh in the way that they are.

Bre Hibbs 46:49

Yeah. Yeah. We don't live in a culture either that is particularly welcoming all the time of emotion and or, you know, really like a depth of feeling. Like there always has to be a reason why we're crying. And it's like sometimes life moves me so deeply that it's just like tears come, you know, it's not attached to a specific moment or event or memory. I don't need to like process it with anybody. It's just like feeling deeply moved. And I think, yeah, in in the West in particular, in the US in particular, at least in like the part of the world that I grew up in, it's like those things don't make sense to people, or there's not a lot of space for that kind of expression all the time. Um, but it's a really beautiful part of life, I think.

Dr. Ayla Wolf 47:41

Yeah. I mean, I cried during the Super Bowl commercial with the the Budweiser stallion and the eagle, baby. And I'm like, it's allergies. I just have allergies.

Creating Change Without Forcing Outcomes

Dr. Ayla Wolf 47:56

Yeah, exactly. Oh boy. Yeah. Um anyway. Well, the other thing that you do is you teach yoga. And coming from um, you know, I would say my background when I've been doing yoga is more of this like hot yoga, sweat it out, everybody does the same pose and holds it for the same time, and it's very kind of militant. And that's been my 20 years experience of doing hot yoga. And so when I uh came down to Pranamaya resort for the retreat that um you were teaching the yoga and doing the somatic body work at, um, well, A, it my logical brain was like, what? We have to do yoga twice a day. Like that's seriously. I'm like, what? I have to do yoga twice a day. And then obviously I found myself looking forward to it very quickly and like realizing, oh my gosh, this is amazing to be able to do yoga twice a day. But what it's so funny how my brain, my brain is just like it gets locked into these mindsets. And to go to your class and for you to be like, okay, move your body around in a circle. And when you get to a point where your body says, ooh, that feel like I want to spend more time there than hang out there, I'm like, really? Like I can do something different from the person next to me. Like, that's okay to do. I mean, it's just, it was funny how many like kind of mindsets I like it, just like the whole week I was realizing how rigid my thinking had become when it came to yoga. And you just you made it fun and you made me like get out of my mind and get into my body in a way that was just so uh so needed. Um, you know, people often talk about yin and yang and this idea of like yin yoga, or but it really it was more about like just, hey, like yoga doesn't have to be this rigid routine that everybody's doing together and it's identical and it looks the same. It's like, no, this can be a very somatic experience that is relaxing and the point is not to sweat 10 pounds out while you're doing it. Um, although down there when the sun's beaten on you, you sweat a little bit. But um, I just I absolutely love your yoga classes. I love your teaching, I love your style. Where did you um kind of where did you get your inspiration from? Because what you do is just so different from what I've been used to, and I I love it.

Bre Hibbs 50:34

I love that you love it. That's great, great news and yeah, a huge compliment. Um I have done a number of yoga teacher trainings over the last 15 years that have been beautiful. So it's a weaving of a lot of things and a lot of you know, teachers and mentors that that I feel like have informed that. And then my the regression work that I do now for the last five years is definitely the most recent. But before that, I was doing a lot of um uh I had been a clinical somatic educator for a number of years. That was kind of one of my big trainings that I did further along ago. Um, and I would say that the somatic, you know, philosophies, the somatic experiencing, the somatic-based practices moved from being something that I did just one-on-one in um what used to be more like coaching that coach coaching sessions with people less therapeutic. But at that time, um, that I feel like is at the heart of yoga for me these days, both in my personal practice, although I totally go to hot yoga still and I love the I mean, yoga, the yoga asana of the yogic tradition is a deep physical training. Like it's hard. That is a part of it. It's a will engagement into creating the physical body as a way for higher states of consciousness to land. So I love that side of things. And then also in this line of the somatic experiencing or following felt sense, it's like that invitation for people to enter different parts of themselves and to let the body, the physical body, the muscles, you know, the ligaments, the connective tissue to kind of highlight either what's stuck or what feels really good, or just what wants or needs a couple, like you said, a couple rounds of breath. Like you can just stay in this shape that it doesn't have a name. That's usually also the way I lead. It's like, I'm not gonna prescribe every single pose by name. It's like you're gonna find something that feels good or necessary in your body, and then you know, pause there. It's gonna look different than your neighbor. So that um that felt sense or that like following inside experiences feels like it's really moved to the heart of how I teach groups.

Dr. Ayla Wolf 52:56

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, I love it. Uh, why don't you tell us a little bit about kind of where you are, what you're doing, where you're teaching, uh, where people can find you.

Bre Hibbs 53:07

Yes. So I live and work um most of the year in Northern California at a meditation retreat center outside of a little town called Ravendale, which most people aren't gonna know, but we do offer uh courses there. Um we have a few public courses and then some courses for students who have been a part of the school for a long time. I spend the other part of the year in Bend, Oregon, which is where Dr. Ayla and I originally met, probably over 10 years ago. Um, and my family's here. So when I'm here, I offer workshops and classes and things. And then where Ayla and I have recently reconnected is at Pranamaya Island Resort in Placentia, Belize. And so I partner with the the founder of a luxury wellness retreat company. Her name is Dr. Mara Kevin. It's actually really hard to describe Pranamaya in different podcasting conversations that I have with people. It's think of luxury meets like wellness meets grounding and being barefoot for a week, meets um like beautiful, clean uh food is medicine, um, meets all the things. Yeah.

Dr. Ayla Wolf 54:21

There is something really awesome about wandering around a luxury resort barefoot for a week that it's irreplaceable.

Bre Hibbs 54:30

I know I always I one of the things I specifically point out is like because the restaurant is open air, meaning like it's covered, but it's open, and because probably culturally, it's obviously just a different place, like in Central America and on this private

Yoga Without Rigid Rules Or Named Poses

Bre Hibbs 54:45

island. You can even be barefoot in the restaurant. Like some part of me, you know, this like growing up of like no shirt, no shoes, no service. No service. Yeah, yep. Like I can be one in my bathing suit if I want to, and two, I can be uh barefoot in the restaurant and the bar. Yeah.

Dr. Ayla Wolf 55:04

Yes. No, I had that exact same, again, mindset like shift where it's like, oh, I can actually wander around barefoot even in the restaurant. That's okay. Oh my gosh, how exciting. Yep, amazing. And then you had a a gift for us. You uh were going to do a bit of a somatic experience here, if uh you still have time. Yes.

Bre Hibbs 55:29

Yeah, let's let's do a practice. So um this one is one that goes back to my early days of like discovering that I have more than a physical body. Okay. It is a very simple practice, and it might be familiar to some people, but I love it and it has a special place in my heart. So um if you're not driving, listening to this podcast, you can close your eyes. If you're driving, you can just have you know gentle awareness and listen to my voice. And just taking your hands and rubbing them together, creating a little bit of friction. We're starting to we'll do this for a few more seconds, but you're just bringing your awareness to the palms of the hands, the heat that's building the create there, the sensation of the friction. And then just slowly letting the palms come to pause, and they're just together in front of the chest or the belly, but not a particular place anywhere that's comfortable. And slowly start to move the hands apart really slowly. And you're just keeping your awareness, your attention in this space between the palms. And sometimes I describe it as you can either open the palms really slowly, or you can kind of open and close the palms almost like you're playing with imaginary taffy.

Dr. Ayla Wolf 57:20

There's almost like uh if you f want to, you could find a gentle pulsing motion.

Bre Hibbs 57:36

The invitation, or not that you're looking for something super specific, but this invitation to feel some level of the energy between the palms, it might feel like vibration, tingling.

Dr. Ayla Wolf 57:53

Sometimes it's a feeling almost like of a opposing magnet in the palm.

Bre Hibbs 58:20

Or as far apart as you want or need, but it's just following these qualities or sensations that are non-physical, but that feel very close to physical or that are registering in the palms, even though what we're playing with is a sense of the energy between the hands. And it might come and go as well. It might be like you feel it for a second, then you kind of lose it, you have to bring the palms closer together to reignite the sensation,

A Simple Practice To Feel Chi

Bre Hibbs 58:55

and then you'll re find it again. Any reflection if it makes sense, if it's relevant, just a sense of like what either awakens in you through this experience, what becomes enlivened.

Dr. Ayla Wolf 59:32

If anything.

Bre Hibbs 59:41

And then you can slowly start to bring your palms together and maybe move slower than you usually might go, because you can as you close the palms, you'll kind of feel the pressure, the density between the hands.

Dr. Ayla Wolf 59:59

As you close them back together.

Bre Hibbs 1:00:13

And then once the palms are together, take the hands, one hand on the heart and one hand on the belly, and maybe on your chest, depending on how your clothing is, see if you can come into contact maybe with your skin, because the hand, the palm might be quite warm or a bit warmer than it was before. And when you're ready, if your eyes are closed, you can gently start to open them and bring your hands back to your lap or wherever you would like them to sit.

Dr. Ayla Wolf 1:01:05

That's a very simple practice of feeling the etheric body or our prana or our chi. Which I love. Yeah, we have um done that a lot over the years in different qigong classes. That's often part of uh part of the the warm-up. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show and for sharing uh what I thought was a fabulous conversation about thinking about our physical symptoms in a little bit different light. And that there is uh so much more mystery to our human bodies and everything we experience than I think um we often acknowledge in our day-to-day world.

Bre Hibbs 1:01:55

Yeah, definitely. Thank you so much for having me and for the beautiful impacts that you create. I mean, that was kind of a pun unintended, but that you create through sharing this podcast and your your recent book. It's just it's so cool to see you just soaring as a practitioner and a published author and podcast host. And yeah, it's really beautiful.

Dr. Ayla Wolf 1:02:18

Thank you. Yeah. Uh this definitely 10 years ago, this was not on my radar that I'd be doing this. And so life has its amazing twists and turns.

Bre Hibbs 1:02:27

Yeah.

Dr. Ayla Wolf 1:02:28

Awesome. Awesome, Bree. Well, thank you so much. I will put all your contact info in the show notes so people know where to find you. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you. Medical disclaimer. This video or podcast is for general informational purposes only and does not constitute the practice of medicine or other professional healthcare services, including the giving of medical advice. No doctor-patient relationship is formed. The use of this information and materials included is at the user's own risk. The content of this video or podcast is not intended to be a substitute

Where To Find Bree And Final Takeaways

Dr. Ayla Wolf 1:03:05

for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment, and consumers of this information should seek the advice of a medical professional for any and all health related issues. A link to our full medical disclaimer is available in the notes.