Christian Perfectionism: When "Should" Isn't God's Voice | 028

Christian Perfectionism: When “Should” Isn’t God’s Voice (with Mary Gallagher)

Have you ever felt like you’re never doing enough for God… no matter how hard you try?

In this powerful episode of The Redeemed Perfectionist, Lenee' Pezzano sits down with Mary Gallagher to uncover the hidden burden of Christian perfectionism, and how the word “should” may be quietly fueling your exhaustion, shame, and spiritual burnout.

If you’ve ever thought:

• “I should be a better Christian…”
• “I should be doing more for God…”
• “I shouldn’t feel this way…”

…this conversation will help you discern whether that voice is truly God—or religious pressure disguised as obedience

Together, we explore:

•  The difference between Holy Spirit conviction vs. shame and condemnation
•  Why God does not motivate through “shoulds”
•  How perfectionism leads to spiritual burnout and anxiety
•  The root of perfectionism: shame, fear, and identity distortion
•  How to recognize God’s voice—one that invites, not pressures
•  Practical steps to break free from performance-based faith 

This episode is for the woman who loves God deeply…
 but feels exhausted trying to live up to expectations she was never meant to carry.

✨ In This Episode, You’ll Learn:

•  Why “should” language reveals hidden perfectionism 
•  How religious environments can distort God’s voice 
•  The truth about identity in Christ vs performance-based Christianity
•  How to stop striving and start walking in grace and freedom
•  A simple exercise to identify and release “should” thinking 

⏱️ Timestamps:

00:00 Is every “should” really God’s voice?
 03:00 Mary’s story of religious pressure
 11:00 “Gold stars for Jesus” & burnout
 17:00 The moment God spoke truth
 28:00 Hearing God vs religious pressure
 32:00 Is perfectionism rooted in shame?
 45:00 First step to break free from striving
 54:00 Closing prayer

FREE RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

Are You Living from Grace or Performance? Take the Faith-Based Perfectionism Quiz. 

Download Mary Gallagher’s Free Identity Guide.  Get it here.

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Transcript

Christian Perfectionism: When “Should” Isn’t God’s Voice | 028

[00:00:00] Have you ever obeyed so hard that you lost yourself? You're so determined to get gold stars from Jesus that you don't stop no matter the cost, and then in spite of the exhaustion, you still feel like God is so disappointed with you and you just can't please Him. 

Today we are talking about one small word that may be quietly driving more exhaustion in your life than you realize.

That word…is should. 

I should do more. I should be further along. I should be a better Christian. I should be stronger. I shouldn't feel this way, but what if that voice isn't God? 

In this deeply honest conversation, my guest, Mary Gallagher and I unpack how 

[00:01:00] religious pressure, perfectionism, and hidden shame can disguise themselves as obedience.

And how God gently leads us out of striving and back into truth. 

If you've ever feared disappointing God, if you've ever confused performance with faithfulness, and if you've ever lived under crushing expectations, this episode's for you because God does not speak in shoulds. 

He invites. He convicts and He leads.

And this conversation might help you hear the difference. 

If this is your first episode, welcome. I'm your host, Lenee’ Pezzano, and for over 20 years in my walk with the Lord, I operated mostly from a place of should. But guess what? Not every should is God's voice. And God in His mercy began restoring the authentic sound of His voice.

And now I'm on a mission to help other women discern the difference between

[00:02:00] Holy Spirit conviction and religious pressure disguised as obedience. 

Because one leads to freedom and the other leads to bondage.  And today's conversation might help you begin to untangle the two. 

Now, here's the thing. Don't get me wrong,God does have standards. But He doesn't motivate through shame. 

And before we begin, if this podcast has been a companion to you in your own healing journey, would you consider following the show, sharing the episode, or leaving a short review? Helping one more woman hear the true voice of God over the voice of shame is work worth doing together?

 Let's dive in.

MUSIC
 
 Audio Only - All Participants: Well, hello Mary Gallagher. Welcome to the Redeemed Perfectionist podcast. We are so glad to have you today, my friend. 

[00:03:00 Thank you so much. I feel like I've been preparing for this podcast my whole life. Exactly. When the scriptures talk about the older women teaching the younger, I am just honored, to walk alongside you.

We are of a similar generation. I know we have similar stories, and for the listener's sake, I am just really excited about the conversation today. I've been doing a lot around identity. 

We've been seeing a lot on that macro level where God is really showing up and helping women truly find their identity in Him. And your story is such a precious one, Mary. 

Today is gonna be all about the word should. And for the listeners, Mary is somebody who came to realize after years of living under expectations that she would say she did not consciously agree to, faithfully doing what was required and expected from others.

[00:04:00] But then you were slowly losing touch with God and who He created you to be. And so He led you not out of what would've been potentially called rebellion, but led you into truth. 

One of the things that you say - and I'm reading this from your identity guide - is that God does not speak in shoulds.

He invites, and you say, when you began to lay down labels and listen for His voice, instead of seeking the approval of others, something in you finally exhaled and letting go, allowed you to take the first step into your God-given identity and ultimately your purpose. Let's just get into this, Mary.

Tell us who Mary Gallagher is. 

I don't know. I like to use the word try hard. I'm a try-hard person, and I know you can relate to that. And something that you said in a podcast that I listened to of yours, 

[00:05:00] I, I wrote it down and I just want you to know your quote has made its way into my book because you said this.

Voices reveal their source by how they motivate. And I just, I think somewhere subconsciously I knew that. But when you said it in those words, all of a sudden I consciously understood I wasn't listening to the right voice. 

God's voice is not should. God's voice is not try harder.God's voice is not, I expect this and I'm gonna, I'm gonna move the goalpost once you get there. God's voice is not condemning; it's inviting, it's loving. It's his kindness that leads us to repentance and discipline when we need it. 

For me I obviously had the propensity to be a perfectionist.  I always liked to do things really well. And I learned that early on in school, 

[00:06:00] when I got all the accolades for getting a hundred percent on my papers and A+’s and gold stars. And I just ate that up and I went with it because it came natural and it was easy. But when I became a Christian, I didn't understand that I didn't have to earn things from God.

I knew I was loved, I knew about grace. But early on in my Christian walk as a baby Christian, and I was newly married, had an encounter with a church leader. He was my pastor at the time. And he confronted me and like I said, I was very new Christian, only about 25 years old, and I was working at a Christian school.

I was serving in the church. I was just so excited to be with Christians and with this community, and he started to confront me in a very condemning and abusive way and telling me that I wasn't spiritually mature and that I 

[00:07:00] needed to take his advice on everything and that I don't know who I thought I was, who you know, was that same old who do you think you are?

And I, when I'm pointing my finger at you, like in this camera, he was doing that to me. He was pointing his finger at me and as this conversation, and I use air quotes for that. It continued. I just felt myself shrinking and shrinking. Not only physically, I kept backing away from him and I was like in an enclosed space and I couldn't get away.

But just spiritually and emotionally I felt like blindsided. I didn't know what had just happened to me. 

My husband happened to be in the vicinity and when he came and saw me crying and this man like, cornering me, he's what's going on here? And I have to say without accusation, but it was a defining moment for me.  Because I felt so attacked for not living up to some standard. And basically what I finally said to him is, 

[00:08:00] are you telling me that as a Christian woman, I have to fit a mold? Because this was the first I was hearing of this, and he said, yes, Mary fit the mold. Mary fit the mold. 

Now, just for the listener's sake, how long had you been in ministry before that defining moment?

I had been a Christian for about four years at that point only. So still a baby Christian. That was my first church that my husband and I became members of, and that was the second pastor. Our initial pastor there, was, welcoming and we learned from him.

And then this pastor came into this community and he was very strong and very I don't say domineering in his approach. Yeah. That it felt like, wow. I really just felt the takeaway from this was I was doing something terribly wrong and I needed to fix it. 

[00:09:00] And I think I heard you say this was the first conversation.  There had not been any signs or anything to the contrary prior to this moment. So this had to have been quite the shock for you. 

Correct. 'cause he was rather new to the church. And I was cruising along working at the Christian school, just loving my life. And it was so shocking that I was in complete meltdown mode and tears and my husband's like, I don't know what just happened.

I'm like, I don't either, but we're doing something really wrong. You need to go talk to him. And so I went, to talk to him further and he continued to tell me that I was doing Christianity all wrong and that I needed to perform in these certain ways and these are things I should do and shouldn't do.

And I, I think the deep shame of what happened in that moment with him is what took that perfectionism, and I just went 

[00:10:00] like on this trajectory like what I say is what I was thinking was, you know what, I'm gonna get gold stars for Jesus and I'm gonna be an A+ Christian and no one will ever be able to humiliate me like this again.

Oh, Mary, it's interesting because much of the time perfectionism starts in childhood, which in your story kind of did, but yours was in a more positive way, if you will. Whereas, I look back at my own walk and I think much of mine was coming from being bullied and more negative, more traumatic kind of experiences that began to shape this belief system that I had to perform to a standard, a certain standard to be accepted and loved. And if I wasn't, then I would be not accepted. But there was really no defined standard. It was what whatever was made up in my head, combined with what the enemy attached to. And it was really, truly never attainable. 

[00:11:00] That's exactly. It's never attainable.  It's never attainable. Yeah. 

So what were some of the shoulds that he was putting on you? What was he saying needed to change? Can you remember? 

He said that I should do more in the church. That I was putting my career ahead of serving in the church, even though I was working in a Christian school in a, it was definitely a ministry in the Christian school.

But he said that I. I should do more in the church and that I should prove that I was humble by doing things like cleaning the bathrooms in the church and changing diapers in the nursery, in the church, even though my gift was teaching. Even though I did that, I was still teaching in the church. He also said that I should have been doing more for the other women in the church.

And I asked him about that and I said, I'm rather young and I'm newly married and I'm a still a relative baby Christian. 

[00:12:00] Shouldn't those women be mentoring me? Okay. And he didn't like when I asked questions back, but he had a lot of shoulds. He also had some shoulds about our marriage. He had some shoulds about relationships with other people.

In my family, there were a lot of shoulds, and that was just the beginning of it. So I felt very much the eye was on me that everything I did or didn't do, was I stepping out of line? Was I, going too far? And that was just the beginning of it. There were other situations that continued to build on that.  But those were some of the shoulds that he started to place on me. 

And when I talk about this in my book, and you mentioned identity, which as I was writing my book, I really didn't know that was the core of it until God revealed that was the core was identity. But I see all these shoulds along with expectations, along with lies that we believe, like you said, we put these demands on ourself.

[00:13:00]  Where did that even come from? I see those all as like layers over our real God-given identity. And each one just layers on top of another, on top of another. And you do get to that place where you're going. I don't even know who I am. I don’t know what I'm supposed to say I am. I don’t know who I'm supposed to be.

I know what other people think I am or want me to be, but I got to a place where I truly just didn't know who I was. And it, it was so burdensome that I remember just saying I just wanna be simply and honestly myself, but I don't even remember who that person is anymore. Yeah, exactly. It sounds like little by little you weren't living in harmony with yourself.

You certainly couldn't have been living in harmony with the Lord. And so how long did that go on and what are the kinds of activities you started to 

[00:14:00] do to win those gold stars for Jesus? 

Oh, that's a good question. It was showing up whenever the church doors were open.  Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday vacation, Bible school, if it was if I was asked to serve in any way.

And this went on even after we left that church, but went into a similar type church. My husband and I would set up church. We do tear down church. If I was asked to teach junior high, I did.  If I was asked to change diapers, I did. If I was asked to bake, if there were prayer meetings and I didn't have a babysitter, I still was expected and it just went on and on and I remember, and just to give you an idea of what my day of rest was like, and I say day of rest again in air quotes. Yeah.

I remember getting up at six in the morning and this was when my kids were little on a Sunday, and I would leave the house and I would walk for an hour and a half 

[00:15:00] and just pray and cry my heart out to the Lord to prepare myself for my Sunday because it meant getting ready for church and then getting there early and doing all the pre things that we had to do.

And then serving for two services and then staying after and tearing down or whatever and then going home and taking care of my family, getting lunch or dinner and all these things, and then zooming back out again and doing it again for the whole Sunday evening. And if we ever missed, there were consequences.

And I say that in a way where it was, we were asked, where were you? Why didn't you come? What happened? What were you doing? Because it was a very small church at that point, that both those churches were small, but was similar leadership. And so that was my salvation was that morning routine where I would walk and pray and cry my heart out to the Lord.

[00:16:00] And mostly just preparing myself because I knew it was going to be a day of exhaustion. I don't really think that God expected that. I had little children. I worked full time. I had a husband. This was crazy. When I look back on it and I remember, I would say to my husband if for whatever reason we would have to miss something, I would be frantic and tell him, text the pastor and tell him why we're not coming.

And I remember my husband always saying, why do you feel we need to explain ourselves? And I was like, because I'm not gonna get the gold star on the chart for those, I'm gonna get it a demerit, is that what we used to call it? So those were the kinds of shoulds. But then it went beyond that.

I was told once by the pastor's wife that I didn't smile enough. Oh my goodness. So then you're constantly like monitoring your expressions and monitoring your outward behavior. 

[00:17:00] And then it was, how to discipline your children. So I was on pins and needles with my children that they were going to do something that was gonna be called out.

And, it just went on and on. And I believed that this is what God saw of me and expected of me. And so I remember one Sunday after I did my morning thing, then I got ready for church, and then we would drive separately because I always had to be there longer or he had to be there longer.

We couldn't even go to church as a family. And I was driving by myself and I got to the end of our little street and I stopped at the stop sign. And I was so overwhelmed. I felt so condemned. And I put my head down and I said, Lord, why are you so angry with me? I felt like God was angry with me because I couldn't keep up with it all.  I couldn't do enough. 

And Lenee’, I'll never forget, He spoke to me. He spoke to me and He said, Mary, I can be no more angry 

[00:18:00] with you than I can be with my own Son, because when I look at you, I only see Him. You're covered in his righteousness. Wow. And I sat there and just cried and cried. And that was a breaking point for me.

Then I knew that God was trying to get me out of all of this. You know, it’d be a while before I untangled it all. But that was a defining moment for me. 

Oh, absolutely. Had your husband been experiencing the same control from the, this couple as well. Okay. So it wasn't just you and it wasn't just women?

No. the first pastor was definitely focused on women. I later found out he had similar encounters or counseling sessions as he called them with other women. The other church it was a lot of everybody feeling that. And eventually, those churches just implode because it's not Godly and it's not built on grace.

And then once we were all able to compare notes, you're like, 

[00:19:00] oh, that was happening to you too. But yeah, my husband was feeling a lot of condemnation too. But I think it's easier. And I'm, I always say this, and I know maybe some people won't like hearing this, but I feel for women, it's harder for us in the church, I feel for women we are told from the minute we step out of the womb, you're just not enough, in society and then in church. And we're being told that we're less than. So it ramps up that need for us to prove ourselves. It ramps up people pleasing behavior where my husband felt it, but he by nature is not a people pleaser.  He's a little bit more of a rebel. 

I'm by nature. I want you to like me, so yeah, I'll do whatever you say if it'll take, that condemnation off of me. And to your point, you didn't know that the enemy was setting you up for deception. And what I love about this story that we 

[00:20:00] will continue to unpack is how God was allowing the entire thing actually to establish your identity.  So what the enemy intended for evil God was gonna turn to good. 

And we're gonna get to hear more of that today, but it's so amazing to me how the counterfeit I say this a lot, wherever there's an authentic, there's a counterfeit and it'll show up in religious ways. Yes, of course. But not relationship ways.

I even think of the task master, I think of Pharaoh always expecting more, but taking away the resources to be able to do the job right. And you were being expected to do more on little capacity and there was no grace to help you with more resources of any kind.

Emotional, physical, spiritual, so Wow. Like just a religious spirit all the way around. Yes. Controlling and manipulative. Yes. 

[00:21:00] I love the defining moment. I'm thankful you could hear God and you knew he was speaking to you. Had that been your relationship with God? Had you had encounters where you knew his voice pretty well, would you say?

Yeah, I would say God's given me that gift, that I would, first we all, people ask me, how do you hear God's voice? And I always say first we hear it in the word right. That's how we know when God's voice, because it has to be grounded in his word. And He'll speak through his word, but then there's those times He will just drop right into your spirit and or He'll speak through someone else.

Not a, not long after that encounter I was still teaching at the Christian school, and I went in the morning to get my, cup of tea in the teacher's lounge. And, another teacher came in, she was older, and she just looked at me. She said, Mary, how are you doing?

And I said I don't know. I just feel like God's upset with me all the time. I'm not doing it right. 

[00:22:00] And she immediately quoted out of Isaiah. It just flowed right out of her. For the Lord waits on high to have compassion towards you. And I broke down and I cried. I knew that was another way God was speaking to me.

Yeah, I do have those moments where I know God's voice and it's immediate and it's impactful and it just stops you in your tracks and you're going well, I would've never said that to myself. Yeah. I was too busy beating myself up, I wasn't gonna say those kind of things. So, you know it's God's voice.

And I think for me, looking back in my journey, I didn't recognize certain ways that He spoke. I came from the church world that didn't believe in the Spirit's real time voice, but yet scripture says, My sheep know My voice. And that's not a past tense thing. That's an ongoing, current relationship with Jesus.

And so we have to be so careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water because sure, there's counterfeit voices that show up, particularly in the gift realm. 

[00:23:00] But the Lord does speak to His children in very personal ways and it's delightful. 

As you and I are speaking, it is 2026. It is April. And right now just in the charismatic circles alone there's so much corruption and so much being exposed that God's allowing. And I'm very grateful for it. I'm afraid that many are throwing the baby out with the bath water and don't want anything to do with the giftings.

But I will say this He expects every one of us to know His voice. Yes. And He will do whatever He needs to do to train us up in that and to help us know it. Because He wants such an intimate relationship with you and me, and He wants us established in Him and in His truth. And He wants us walking freely in our identity because at the end of the day, it's me and Him.

That's right. And I will talk with Him, and I will have to 

[00:24:00] answer for why I chose somebody else's voice over His. Exactly. You know exactly your husband, that pastor, nobody get, gets to show up and advocate for you. It's you and the Lord right now. He's mercy and He is tender and compassionate and there's all these things.

So even now, I feel led to, there's that nudge that I feel from the Spirit. If you're listening to this and any of it's resonating, then Holy Spirit has likely been trying to open your eyes to something and awaken you, and you're not crazy, you're not. Follow that nudge, follow that voice. See where it leads.

And if it's leading to peace, it's a sure sign. That's one indicator that you're aligning back with the word of God and with truth. cause if you're having exhaustion and tears and you're condemned. All of that fruit is not fruit of the Holy Spirit. It's of a different spirit.

[00:25:00] It's a counterfeit, Mary, you mentioned it took a while for all of this to unravel. So take us through a little bit of that journey. 

After I finally was able to separate from those two types of churches, I felt that God led me through this.  I called a season of grace. I felt so much freedom that I had never felt before. And I remember feeling very confused about what I believed, except I knew I was saved. I knew my husband and I were married, had a solid relationship. And I remember just sitting down with the Bible and putting it on my lap and saying, God, I'm not gonna go anywhere until you show me in your word what is truth.

Because I had gotten those voices very mixed up in my head. I now call that spiritual clutter, right? Yeah. All the voices. Yeah. All the Bible studies, all the this is what good Christian women do. This is what good Christian women don't do. 

[00:26:00]  The shoulds, the expectations, the man-made expectations. So I sat there with the Lord and the first book that I worked through was Galatians, which of course we know is the Freedom Book, the Be Free.

You are free. And it was so much freedom. And I remember just thinking, I never wanna let this happen again. I never, I wanna have such discernment that I will see this coming from a mile away. So that was grace. And yet there was still a part of me that needed to be fully surrendered to the Lord, because what I did was I felt that I couldn't trust church leaders very much.

So instead of being in the center where all the action was, I moved to the outer ring of the churches. And I went to church and I did serve in some capacity. And I loved to go and I loved worship and hearing the word, but I was very guarded. It was like I walked in with a chip on my shoulder don't even go there.

[00:27:00] You have no access to me. 

And for clarity, was this the same church or had you left? 

We had moved actually. Okay. We had moved to another city. Okay. And we went to a new church and lovely church. And we stayed there for 11 years until we moved again. But I stayed very much on that outer ring.

And what I did then was I poured a lot of that energy that I had used in the church. I poured it into my career. Ah, okay. One form of perfectionism for another, and then here comes part two. Okay. So that just led to a different burnout.

I think I said this, on one of your Facebook posts was just, we can't outrun this.

Right. We just redirect it. So it has to come down to learning how to rest. And surrender. But I didn't know how to do that. I only knew how to keep going and keep doing Yeah. And keep praying that I was doing it right. And doing it good enough.

[00:28:00] And then I reached a different place of burnout In my career. And it just, that was really like like rock bottom because I had nowhere to go. I was so burned out and I, that had taken me so far from just the heart of God and what He wanted me to do with my life.

And then I was let go. I was laid off. 

And and now you're alone with yourself. Like now you're I'm alone. Alone. I had just moved yes. Outta state. My children were out of the home. Yeah. It was in a new city. I didn't have a new church yet. And now I don't even have this community home that I've been working with.

And. And now it was, God was like, okay, you're grounded. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I've got you. I had to put baby in a corner for just a moment. Yeah. And don't do anything else. Yeah. 

Mary, all along though, I call it hustle Hell you're in hustle Hell, yep. 

[00:29:00] What was, you, we know that at this point you had familiarity with the voice of God, but if your walk is anything like mine was, He tended to be put on the back burner in terms of quiet time with Him getting in the word, listening for His voice.

I always thought about Him and He was always at the center of every decision I was making so I thought but where was the voice of God in all of this?  Looking back was He trying to get your attention before all of this? What did that look like? 

I love that you said back burner 'cause I have used that term so many times. My back burner really was God. After I had gone through all of that turmoil and left those legalistic churches, God had showed me that He wanted me to write. And I, a lot of writers will say, I knew since I was seven years old, I was gonna be a writer.

[00:30:00] I was always good at writing and I enjoyed doing some creative writing. And I liked poetry, but I never thought of it as I'm a writer. And one day I was sitting there and I just, I felt a sentence drop into me and I wrote it down and a story came out. It was actually a story about my son who was born with an illness and what we went through.

And then I said I think He wants me to be a writer. And so actually that first thing that I ever really wrote that I felt was inspired, I took to a writer's group and they told me that it was good enough to submit. I ended up submitting that and it was accepted and put into an anthology. So it was kind of like, oh, there's a green light, right?

But like with most things, the logical part was like writing isn't gonna pay the bills and, you gotta do this. My career developed very effortlessly. I went from being a classroom teacher to working in corporate and never really had to strive to get there.

Jobs were gifted to me, people knew my work ethic, people knew I was capable. 

[00:31:00] So I progressed in my career and all the time there was that little thing on my shoulder going what about that writing? What about that writing? And I would like I'm gonna get to that, or, but Lord, I don't have time for that.

And that was the voice of God. Yep. at that season in my life, I would say His voice was more like wooing me. Yes, just wooing so good until I got to that place where, like you said, it was just me. I was alone and I knew in that moment, before I even got off the call with H.R, as they were telling me, today's your last day with the company, I was already praying and saying, okay, God, I know what you want me to do and I'm excited about it. 

That's so sweet. I think that there is a powerful revelation that's occurred and even spoke of today here, and that is the tone and the heart and the voice of God. There's a distinct difference. You will say, he doesn't should you into obedience.  He invites you. 

[00:32:00] We know that obedience is a requirement of our Holy Father. We get that. We get that. Yeah. But as I look back and it's so interesting because I had a spiritual father and there was a point at which the Lord had to rip me away from that relationship. And I say, rip me away, because I would've probably not left it on my own.

And so He had to bring a harsh environment so that would be cut quickly. And now I'm very thankful because it showed me that I hadn't come into my identity fully enough to realize that I had made an idol out of my spiritual father's voice over God's. I also was not mature yet enough to be confident in hearing God's voice for my own.

And as I compare both voices of both fathers, the spiritual natural faith father and the faith, and then God. 

[00:33:00] Yeah. Wow. Okay. Like God's voice. Has always, it's been so much more tender and compassionate. And even when He had to go to great lengths to stop me or, discipline me, the truth slayed, but it set free, as scripture says, it was clean, there wasn't condemnation pressure. The finger in your face, the tone, of just a haughtiness and a I'm not pleased with you. 

And again, even if He wasn't pleased, because maybe He had set the expectation enough that now He expected me and I still had no obeyed and He had to turn the heat up again it was still truth that was clean and it set free. The other voice was much more condemning and if I didn't do it immediately, I was like, I thought I was gonna be in wicked trouble and get kicked outta the Kingdom. 

[00:34:00] And I know the heart behind it was such that, there's been too much wrong use of grace and people are not accountable.

And we as a church have lacked in terms of true modeling, what it does look like to hold up the standards of God. But it was just all very mixed up in a way that combined with my own belief systems and my lens, I couldn't discern and God had to really begin to awaken me to some things. 

Thank God, right?  He leads us into all truth. That's part of what He promises through the Spirit of God, right? 

Again, if you're listening, take note of like, how do you hear the Lord? What do you believe His posture is? Because He would never should-shame you to death. 

So let's talk about where you and I share similar revelation on what has been at the heart of perfectionism.

[00:35:00] Yeah. What it's been rooted in for me, and I believe probably for most people, it's rooted in shame. Yeah. Absolutely. And that's hard to escape. Even if you have the most loving parents or the greatest environment, there's gonna be those moments of shame. Yep. I think for some people though, they can walk away from that easier than others.

I think, I am a what some people would call a highly sensitive person or a sensitive soul, and those things deeply embed themselves in me. For me I always looked for the approval of someone else to do or say anything. Sure. Though, a lot of people looked to me as a strong woman or a strong leader, they didn't know that inside I was constantly in turmoil looking for someone else's approval.

[00:36:00] And I remember reading and listening, doing some work around, Brene Brown, right? She's all about shame and belonging. And once I really understood shame I just sat there and I prayed and I said, Lord I let this go. I'm never, I just let it go. I don't wanna be motivated by shame.

And after that prayer, I started to recognize it. Yes, I would recognize when someone else was trying to shame me into behaving a certain way. And I was able to go, oh, I see what that is. Yes I see it. Or and like you said, God doesn't shame us. So why in the world would we accept that from others or from ourselves, right?

That inner critic voice, that's a voice of shame. Yes. And I was able to actually visualize my inner critic, with a little image movie across my mind. And I was able to say, oh, her name is shame. And she's huge. She put me in my place. Who do you think you are? 

[00:37:00] And once I was able to see her and visualize her, I realized how I could tame her and let her go.  And that was part of the process of letting go of the perfectionism. I didn't need to be perfect. I was accepted and loved for who I was. 

And like we said, it's a losing game anyway. You're never ever going to attain it. So why waste all this mental and emotional energy trying to get there?

Yeah. I remember the day that I had the revelation that shame was my issue and that my nervous system, so there was also a physiological piece to this. For me, my nervous system was constantly still in fight or flight mode. Perfectionism is a method of self-preservation, correct? It was as if that that person inside of me was scanning every situation, every day, all day long, scanning on the outside of me, scanning on the inside of me.

[00:38:00] That's that inner critic measuring, grading, everything, like my brain was just constantly on Yes. And living and reliving trauma and just, so it was always trying to guard me. My brain was always in self-preservation mode. so while intellectually I was starting to understand, okay shame is definitely, fear these are at the root, right?  I still didn't know how to regulate. And that came a little bit later and I began to be able to learn how to regulate. 

So combined with a new belief system and regulating my nervous system, now I was starting to be transformed by the renewing of my mind. And I was learning how to take captive the thoughts and make them obedient to Christ, which is what you just described.

And so often I listen to people and I'm like, you, 

[00:39:00] I tend to prefer to have people like me, although I'm not afraid to confront, but Right. That's typical, right. People pleasing is pretty common amongst the perfectionist.

One of the things I've encountered and as my story has begun to unfold.

I will say that shame and fear were really at the heart of my perfectionism because a lot of people wanna push back on me and say it's pride. And I'm like, no. Technically, if you wanna technically talk about perfectionism, you could say it's pride because you're trying to take things into your own hands and not give it over to God and walk in your own strength and you're trying to justify yourself by the works of the law.

And so Galatians was also a huge revelation for me. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm walking in another gospel. This isn't even in the gospel, right? But I said, you have to understand 

[00:40:00] what drove. Right then to perfectionism to begin with. The fear and the shame and the condemnation and all the things.

Yeah. The compassion that God has put in my heart for perfectionists and for people who struggle with this stuff is I will not let anybody talk me out of my belief system on that. I just won't do it. 

You know what really helped me understand and accept this was learning about the Enneagram. Now, a lot of Christians will give themselves a number and say, this is who I am.

But the truth of that is you are not that Enneagram. You are not that number. That's just the way that you saw to protect and cope with life. Okay? And so for us it was number one, the perfectionist. But I remember listening to the podcast about this and they were saying, first of all, to your point. 

[00:41:00] It is the most difficult of all the numbers, to be it the podcaster was saying, I have so much compassion for people who identify as the perfectionist because this is like being trapped in your own self and it's not about pride.

Look at me, I'm doing so well. It's about what will happen if I don't do this so well. That's right. I will fall apart, my family will fall apart. People will be disappointed, people will be hurt because I not only drove myself and my own career, but I've took on the weight and responsibility of other people's success in their career.

I felt responsible for everybody within my sphere, and I had to make it all perfect so that they wouldn't be in pain or so they wouldn't fail. And so people who don't understand that, don't understand what a burden is to right. Be a perfectionist. However, what I loved is when they took this one step further and they said, that's not your identity.

[00:42:00] It's just the way you found worked for you to cope with life. And that set me free. 'cause I was able to say, okay, I've got these tendencies, but that's still not my identity. That's right. My identity is in Christ. And he can take this desire for things to be perfect or nice or clean or whole.

Really that's what it is. It's about we like wholeness, we don't like holes and brokenness. That's a Godly Right. quality. But He can take that and He can use it in a Godly way. Instead of me striving to try to fix the world around me. 

I had I was not conscious that I was doing this. I'm a very generous giver and I was trying to help fundraise for a family who desperately needed it. And the Lord paused me because I was striving. 

[00:43:00] I didn't have the time to really be doing it. But I felt obligated. But I also loved to give. So there was a part of me that was taking it on in, in a good way. And I said, why, Lord, why would you have me not do this?

And he said, you actually don't believe that I can take care of this. Yes. And I about lost it. I could not. He was right. That's, that is, that's what people mean when they say that, oh, perfectionists are full of pride. That I wasn't conscious. That was a symptom, again, of deeper issues like we've already discussed.

Yes. But I immediately humbled myself and surrendered that. And that has made a huge difference in how I approach those things And as we get healed, it takes time. It's a process. That was the other thing, is I had to give myself permission for the process and have grace. He keeps telling me time and time again to not be hard on myself, not condemn myself.

[00:44:00] That's probably one of the pieces of residue that have remained more than any other, is I've been terribly hard on myself. Yes. More than He has. And I'm learning to let that go as well. And just receive His grace and love in a deeper way. Because again, his voice was condemning in my mind, punishing.

And if I wasn't obeying, and if I wasn't obeying fast enough, then I wasn't pleasing the Father. I tell my listeners all the time when He showed up and began to bring the Lamb, I say, I knew Him as the Lion. I didn't know Him as the Lamb. And when He came as compassionate and tender and merciful, I thought it was a counterfeit.

Wow. I really thought it was a counterfeit showing up as an angel of light. Oh my goodness. And he had to confirm in so many ways that no, this is also me. Like I can, I am both great and terrible. Scripture says, yeah, mercy and

 [00:45:00] truth purge iniquity, not just truth and not just mercy. Wow. So it's crazy. But once you start to your point, learning and seeing it and receiving it and believing it, you start to get real freedom. 

So what's life look like for you today, Mary? 

I would really say that I've had so much victory over all of this. One of the ways that I learned to identify when I was in striving mode was by the way my body was reacting.

And again, that comes back to I had the time and the space to really make these connections. When I was going, I just pushed through the pain, the migraine, the anxiety, the tension, the upset stomach. I just pushed through all that. Once I was able to step back, I realized those were all signs of stress, striving, trying to be perfect, worrying about what other people were thinking of me.

[00:46:00] And you mentioned having idols and I talk about this in my book too, I call it worshiping at the altar of productivity. I love that so much. And God had to say do you really thank your worth is in what you output. And just, I had to say such simple things to myself, like I am a human being.

Yes. Not a human doing. Yeah. And these things sound like they're so trite, but these were the things that I had to use, like you said, to renew my mind. And I had to replace those lies, those shoulds, those expectations with scripture, with truth. 

And then I would start to recognize that, okay, why do I have this tightness in my chest?  That's a sign that I'm going this way. Okay. Why do I feel like I gotta sit here and do one more thing at the computer when God's saying, go take a walk and nature and in, and talk to me, or, so I began to replace the lies, but I began to replace the activities too, and I began to listen to my body.

[00:47:00] Yeah. And that was the first time I ever allowed myself to listen to my body. So now for me, it shows up pretty quickly when I'll feel it in my body and I'll get that check in my spirit, but it's literally in my gut, and I'll be like, whoa, hold on. That can't be from God. Because God doesn't give me this bad feeling.

So my mornings are slow. My approach to projects is slow. I do my best, but I step away when I have to. I've also relaxed with everyone else because when a bomb explodes and there's that collateral damage, what collateral damage of being around someone who's so tightly wound is that other people, fall in, in your line of fire.

Not only do you expect yourself to be perfect and you're shoulding all over yourself, but you're doing it to your family and you're doing it to. Yeah. Versus new to friends and you're pushing people away. And I've now been able to not [00:48:00] do that to other people. And so I'm inviting people into my circle and they're saying, how did you stop stressing?

How did you stop striving? And I'm able to share that with them. So I always tell people, if you could see me 10 years ago Yes. You wouldn't even recognize me. Yeah. You would say, this isn't even the same woman. Yeah. Because I have changed so much. What the Lord has done in my life is incredible.

It is. It, I've even had a dear friend of mine just say to me, she said, Lenee’ six months ago, you were a whole different person. And I was like, what? Like really? But it's true. It's just, it's so true. Wow. 

If somebody listening feels stuck under the weight of should, what's a small step do you think that they could take today?

I think the first small step is to write it down. Because you even caught yourself just a minute ago, the word should came out. But I also wanna say it comes out in the negative too. 

[00:49:00] Like, I shouldn't, you'll hear women say, I should do this, but they'll also say, I shouldn't feel this way, but why shouldn't you feel that way?

Where's that written down? Where, where did that belief come from that you shouldn't feel frustrated or you shouldn't feel a little bit empty or whatever?  You're allowed to feel, whatever you feel, or you're allowed to want whatever you want. So I would say when you hear yourself saying it, or thinking it should or shouldn't, write it down.

And then, say it out loud and ask yourself how does my body feel when I say this? Am I tensing up? Am I clenching? Am I getting a little bit of stomach ache? And then ask yourself, is this truth or is it some external pressure or something I put on myself? Where does this come from?

Because oftentimes it is rooted in a lie, right? A lie that we either adopted or someone told us. And I talk about lies in my book too, a whole chapter on that. 

[00:50:00] Like, where did this lie come from that I'm this?  Who said I'm this way? Who said I'm argumentative? Did I say that? Did someone say that to me?

And then it became part of my identity. So just write it down. Ask God is it true or not? I would guarantee 99% of the time, you're gonna be so surprised when you allow God to reveal where that should or that lie came from and then just stop using it. Literally make a commitment to stop using it and be that place of peace for other women so that we can all, and I will point it out to the people that I work with and and when I say work with, like in, in the online space and people that I'm having one-on-ones with, and I'll be like, now I just heard you say, should I want you to take that outta your vocabulary so we can help each other get those shackles off.  Sure. I do believe we can do that. Absolutely.

[00:51:00] I think it all comes back to really the Lord bringing the healing we need internally to truly accept not just who we are in Him, but His heart, His true heart, and that's the thing. The enemy has so twisted the heart of God Yes. That so many believers have walked away because they're exhausted because they were trying to live up to a standard that was never God to begin with.

It was a counterfeit. And then of course the world looks at the believers and they're like yeah, I don't want anything to do with that if that's the way it is. So where's the joy? Where's the peace? Where's the joy? That's right. Where's the freedom? Absolutely. All people and yet often we’re the most bound.

And yeah I feel like, the Lord spoke through a friend of mine as I was going through the healling process. I was texting her back and forth, and I remember I was standing there. I had the phone in my hand. I was standing next to my bed and her text back to me was, you are a freedom warrior. 

[00:52:00] And I'm telling you, it was like the hot coals on Isaiah's lips.

Yes. I dropped that phone. I was like, whoa. I dropped it on the bed because it felt like, an invocation from God that He was seeing, because He never wastes our pain. Ever waste that pain. And I know what it feels like to be bound by perfectionism, the expectations of others, the shoulds, the fear.

What will people think of me? I don't want women to walk through that. We’ve got work to do for the Lord and His Kingdom. Yes. And we can't do it if we're only showing up as a fraction of our true selves. That's exactly right. 

And I'm just, again, I said it in the beginning, but I'm so honored to lock arms with women like you and just get our message out to the world because there's a whole nother generation coming up after us that need to have their foundation built upon these kinds of truths.

[00:53:00] And then there's a whole existing generation that needs to come back to the Lord, and I believe they're there. I believe their heart has been to serve God. They just didn't realize they were trying to serve Him under a wrong gospel, counterfeit gospel, really. And they need permission to be free and need help.

Mary, tell us where are you now? What? What are you doing? You mentioned a book. You have, I think you have a community. You have this wonderful free guide people can get. So take us through some of the ways in which people can connect with you and what resources you have to offer. 

Yeah, I would love to give away this free guide.

It's an identity guide and it is gonna start with all those shoulds. And there's a few activities in there that are very simple. And I always tell women there's no right or wrong. It's not like this isn't a test, you're not getting graded. There's no gold stars here. Take it, use it however it speaks to you, and allow the Lord to show you is this where I've been?

[00:54:00] What else God do you want to show me? And if that resonates then I really think that they will enjoy reading my book, which with, if they sign up for the free identity guide, that will put them on the email list so that I can give them announcements and updates as this book gets put out into the world, which should be very soon.

And it'll be my story, but also how to get free from all of that, the perfectionism, the productivity, the busyness, the lies, the shoulds. I have a whole chapter on should.  Something that I also will be publishing along with the book, is it companion workbook. So if you enjoy the identity guide you'll probably enjoy going deeper in that companion workbook.

And like you and I both said, it could be six months, it could be six years. There is no timeline. These are not seven steps to freedom in Christ. That's not how the Lord works. No. We're in a love, love this quote that I learned from Oswald Chambers where he 

[00:55:00] says, let God be as original with other people as He is with you.

Oh, so good. And I think what so beautiful, like every one of us, He's gonna lead us. And in Ephesians two 10, which is one of the anchor verses to my book, is about, we are His workmanship. And if you look at that in different translations, there's craftsmanship and the Greek root word of is poema.

We are each his poem. Yes. And as a poetry writer myself, I can tell you that a poem comes from your heart. Amen. And all two are the same. and so we owe it to ourselves to see ourselves that way and to allow God to take however long it takes to heal us and peel back all these layers and all these lies and all these expectations.

Because He loves us dearly. He is in, He is just created each one of us, so individual and unique. And that's the heart of what I want women to walk away with. 

[00:56:00] Amen. We are sure gonna make sure that the links are in the show notes so people can connect with you. 

Is there any final thought, anything that you wanna leave for the audience today that you haven't already shared?

I would say we always have this idea of trying harder. We think that is the answer to everything. If I try harder, I will lose weight. If I try harder, I will be a nicer person. If I try harder, I will be a better Christian. But I remember, I, I stumbled upon the book, Try Softer by Aundi Kolber and it just hit me like a brick.

Why try harder? What would happen if we tried softer? He's actually biblical. Wow. That sounds powerful. We're He's already done everything. We're completely helpless anyway, in saving ourselves and fixing ourselves. We're not broken, but we think we are. That's why we try harder. 

[00:57:00] So I guess my last words would be, you're not broken.

There's nothing wrong with you. You don't, you’ve been trying hard your whole life. What if you tried softer? Wow. And just step back from all of that and see where God takes you in that. That's so precious. That even speaks to me. 

Mary, are you comfortable? closing us out in prayer, 

Absolutely. I would love to. Thank you. Heavenly Father, thank you so much. Thank you. That you crafted and created each one of us so beautifully, so wonderfully. If we could each see the poem that we are crafted by your heart and your hand, if we could look in the mirror and just see ourselves the way you see us, not broken, not needing to be fixed, not too much, not less than enough, but just absolutely perfect in this moment, in this space, in this time, if we could just each exhale and rest in all that you've done for us and how much you love us.

[00:58:00] I, for every woman listening right now, that they will just say, Lord, I'm resting in you now, and stop striving that you will teach them how to do that. We thank you for your word because that's where the truth is. I pray that you would reveal and open their eyes and their hearts to see scripture in ways they've never seen it before, where suddenly verses that they've seen and heard their whole lives will take on new meaning in the light of how much you love them.

We lay aside our striving. We know that everything, as Jesus said, it is finished. It was done on the cross. There's nothing we can add to, nothing we can take away from. And when we walk in that fellowship and just abiding in you, we know that you'll use this for your kingdom and the purposes that you've placed in our hearts.

I pray that we would each have the courage to do that in Jesus name. Amen.

[00:59:00] Amen. 

Well, I sure hope that today's conversation put language to something maybe your soul has been carrying, and I hope you don't rush past that. Stay with what God might be showing you. 

And as a next step, I'd love for you to take my grace scale quiz. It's linked in the show notes. it might help you discern where religious pressure might still be masquerading as obedience and where God might be inviting you into deeper freedom.  You might be a little bit surprised actually. 

And of course I've already asked you to share, subscribe, you know all the things that help. But let's talk about what's coming next. We're going to continue with the theme of identity and the shoulds, and you get to hear how the shoulds of obedience broke our next guest. 

I sit down with a friend of mine who had four children and one miscarriage in her first five years of marriage, all because she thought she should obey her 

[01:00:00] husband and not wear birth control. 

Until next time, may you learn to recognize the voice that invites, reject the voice that shames and rest more deeply in the heart of God.