Coherent
Melanie Nelson hosts in-depth interviews unpacking the political issues shaping Aotearoa New Zealand today. Join us as we explore the sweeping reforms transforming our society, affecting areas like the environment, Indigenous rights, and social cohesion. Our conversations provide clarity, context and hope in uncertain times.
Coherent
#21: Poverty by design: Rebecca Macfie on justice, systems, and what needs to change
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Video episode available for free on my Substack.
What if poverty in New Zealand isn’t accidental — but the result of how our systems are designed?
In this episode of the Coherent podcast, I speak with journalist and author Rebecca Macfie about her recent books Hardship and Hope: Stories of Resistance in the Fight Against Poverty in Aotearoa and Pakukore: Poverty by Design. We also discuss the upcoming conference, Kia Tika, Kia Pono: For a Just Society, which she is helping to organise.
We explore what sits behind the idea of “poverty by design” — from labour market reforms and welfare systems, to education, housing, and the long shadow of colonisation. Rebecca explains how disadvantage compounds across generations, and how policy settings, institutional behaviour, and public narratives all play a role in shaping outcomes.
But this conversation isn’t only about diagnosis.
Drawing on her writing, Rebecca also shares stories of resistance, community-led solutions, and what she’s come to understand about hope — not as optimism, but as action. From papakāinga developments to frontline service innovation, she reflects on the depth of talent and capability that exists within communities, and what’s lost when systems fail to support it.
We also discuss:
- why poverty is often framed as individual failure — and what that obscures
- how distrust and rigid systems can make crises worse
- the concept of a “pipeline” into the justice system for Māori
- what a genuinely “just society” might look like in practice
- and whether we’re moving closer to it — or further away
This is a wide-ranging and deeply grounded conversation about how inequality is produced - and what it would take to do things differently.
The Kia Tika, Kia Pono: For a Just Society conference is open to anyone wanting to engage with these ideas and explore new ways of thinking about justice in New Zealand.
Video episode available for free on my Substack.
Resources:
Kia Tika, Kia Pono - For a Just Society Conference
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