Marketing Lessons from the Super Bowl + the High Growth Firms

How do High Growth professional services firms go to market today? Download the 2025 High Growth Study to find out: https://www.hingemarketing.com/highgrowth

In this episode of Spiraling Up, the gang draws parallels between Super Bowl advertisements and professional services marketing. Then, Austin tries to trick Joe and MB in a marketing game of “Fact or Fiction” based on the results of Hinge’s recent 2025 High Growth Study. In this episode, you’ll learn:

• If creating content is still the top marketing priority
• What percentage of revenue firms dedicate to marketing today
• The key business challenges firms face, like AI integration
• How proficient firms are in using marketing metrics
• The impact of speaking at targeted events
• The effectiveness of webinars in current marketing strategies
• What type of research High-Growth firms focus on

Transcript

Austin McNair: 0:00

In this week's episode of spiraling up, our team discusses the Superbowl and it's not so many B2B advertisements. And then Joe and MB are going to go head to head against me. In fact, checking this year's data on the fastest growing professional services firm. Will I be able to outsmart them? Let's find out. Welcome everybody. This is spiraling up with hinge marketing. Welcome to spiraling up the marketing podcast that puts a playful twist on the usual marketing podcast. If you're a marketer or business leader in the professional services world, then welcome. You are in the right place. Each episode, we're going to cover notable stories in the world of marketing, as well as we are going to invite. Leading voices in the industry to play games and share their honest insights on what works, what doesn't work, and what's next in the world of professional services marketing. Welcome to this episode. MB, Joe, I'm, uh, happy to, uh, be on this episode again with you guys. Welcome to another one of our first episodes of Spiraling Up. How are you guys doing? Um,

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 1:10

doing good. Made it to another day.

Joe Pope: 1:13

Yeah, well, I was just excited to hear that we're having leading voices. And since we don't have a guest today, that inherently allows me to claim being a leading voice. I will add that to my headline on LinkedIn probably within the next two hours.

Austin McNair: 1:27

I love that. You know what I hate? I added it up before the episode, I think between the three of us, we've got over 24 years of experience in professional services marketing. I think that that'll do for today, but yeah, you're, you're right. We're going to, uh, you

Joe Pope: 1:42

one third of a leading voice. Yeah,

Austin McNair: 1:45

in future episodes here, we're going to be talking to people from various industries. Leading consultants in different spaces, different specializations. So, uh, yeah, stay tuned. We're really excited, um, for that, but let's turn to today's pivotal story. MB, why don't you tell us about this week's pivotal story and what we're doing?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 2:03

Yeah, awesome. So let me start just by explaining a little bit about what pivotal stories are. So in this segment, our intent is really to explore the intersection between business and culture, where we uncover key moments and trends that are shaping our world. And how they're impacting the marketing landscape today. So we're going to be talking about things like dissecting current events, you know, analyzing consumer behavior and extracting actionable insights that you can use to elevate your marketing game. So this week we are talking about all things. Superbowl. And I know for you guys, Superbowl Sunday, it's all about football for me. We know, you know, I love a good halftime show, but as marketers, I think that, you know, we can all really appreciate the creativity and the strategic thinking that goes into a lot of these high profile Superbowl commercials. Um, so let's get into it. You know, what were the ads that stood out to you guys the most this year?

Joe Pope: 2:59

Oh, good, good, good question. Um, the one that comes to mind right off the bat. And this is probably mostly because of my undying love for Baja Blast Zero, which is, in my opinion, the overall number one seed of software, uh, soft drinks is the Taco Bell seal seal, uh, where he's seal, you know, seal, the singer is, uh, superimposed on his. An actual seal and he starts singing his, he starts singing his ballad. It's been transitioned to be Taco Bell themed. Honestly, the world would be a better place with more seal. If we're being honest, just, he can just sing. He's like, uh, he's like Morgan Freeman where it's like, you want him to narrate your life seal. He should just sing to me on a daily basis.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 3:40

Real talk, the only thing that I thought after I watched that commercial was that is going to give my kids nightmares for sure.

Joe Pope: 3:48

It's a dark, dark look into how my mind thinks is causing children nightmares. So, uh, Austin, you up?

Austin McNair: 3:54

Yeah, I mean, I think I'm on your children's nightmare theme as well. My favorite was the, uh, Tostino's Pizza Rolls, uh, commercial, mostly because I love, uh, Tim Robinson and Sam, Sam Richardson. They're two comedians that, uh, make a show on Netflix called, I think you should leave. Which I highly recommend. I do get, you know, I do recommend this show to a lot of friends. It's not for everybody. Um, but wow, seeing them in a Super Bowl commercial, uh, brought a lot of delight to my heart. Even if, uh, it, you know, that commercial also with like a little alien that was there, uh, May have been a little awkward for, uh, some kids and families as well, too. Especially, I think they released a separate, like, internet only version, which is like a little bit more intense. But no, creative, clever, and had my two favorite, uh Celebrities in there. MB, what about you?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 4:45

that was a good one. Um, I liked the, the Michelob ultra pickleball, uh, commercial. I thought that that was just like, it was funny, but not too slapstick, funny, uh, kind of clever. Um, so that was a good one. But the one that just like totally stole the show for me was the Nike ad. You can't win. So when, um, I just thought the delivery was just. Absolutely iconic. And it was a great example of purpose driven marketing. Um, after the Super Bowl, they actually, they interviewed, uh, Nike's chief marketing marketing officer, um, Nicole Hubbard Graham, um, and not a direct quote, but she's basically talking about, you know, how the Nike brand, you know, it wasn't built on. Google ads or Google clicks. It was, you know, it's really built on feelings and, you know, big, disruptive, irreverent, emotional ideas. And I just, I thought that they really executed on that. And, um, I think when you, you know, can connect with your audience on that deeper level, being able to do that, you know, you are able to create that, that positive brand perception, which. obviously like ultimately leads to, uh, the brand loyalty, um, which is, which is the goal.

Joe Pope: 5:55

Yeah. Yeah. And that was their first commercial in a long time, right. In terms of a super bowl spot.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 6:01

Yeah. 27 years. So they haven't done a super bowl ad since 1998. I know. I was surprised by that too.

Austin McNair: 6:07

I did not know that at

Joe Pope: 6:09

Yeah. Seriously. Because I mean, you think Nike being synonymous with football all the time, right. Uh, but I, I, I think the purpose angle there, Nike's definitely embraced that in the last decade. Uh, but, and, and especially right now with lots going on that it was a very timely, uh, an advertisement, but, and one of the things when we were talking about what the, this pivotal story section should be this week, uh, in this podcast was, we just rattled off a bunch of different commercials. We didn't, you know, we didn't really say like, let's make sure one's B2B, one's B2C, things along those lines. and one of the things that was super interesting to us when I know when we were talking about this segment and it's, uh, in its entirety was an article recently. Vanessa Chin, uh, penned something for, she penned an article for AdWeek, uh, on their website. It's making the case for why B2B should try to buck that trend. Why there's actually a place for that style of, uh, that style of advertisement to make its appearance on the biggest stage. A few of the, a few of those reasons that she cited, uh, some of them, probably the obvious ones, 120 million plus eyes on it, TV and streaming. And I believe this was actually the most watched. Super Bowl of all time. NFL could not be a hotter ticket. And you know, you add in like you said, and be the reasons people watch the Super Bowl. They're not always football. Um, they are things like commercial. They are seeing what's going to happen in the halftime show. You know, how is Drake going to get dissed this time? Uh, we, poor Drake. He's having a rough go. Uh, but yeah, I mean, there was another reason though. And now for trying to really big. Resonate this to professional services. She referenced a study that was conducted by a Bain and Google, two big names, uh, that found that B2B buyers will make a list of vendors at the beginning of their consideration search, uh, and that list that they then bring into the evaluation, the interview process 90 percent of the time that. List will contain the ending choice. The group that they select will come from that original day one list. Well, when you're making a day one list, a lot of times think about how you're, what's the process you're going to go through. It's going to be what pops into your mind. What's what's the brand that resonates with me. So if, if we are making a case for initiatives or efforts to grow your brand visibility, it's right there, right? Because if you're not on that day, one list, you're having to, in a sense, unseat. That day, 1 list, you're having to climb an even taller hill to get there. in professional services, in a sense, you have to think that way as well. You have to be able to build that brand visibility as a part of your overall larger strategy.

Austin McNair: 8:55

Yeah. Joe, one thing that you're saying that, that stands out to me, um, it's about that visibility piece. This, this might be a surprise to some people, you know, who have managed a marketing budget for quite a while, or, you know, you, you, every year you're deciding what should go in your marketing budget. So our, our benchmark for high growth firms shows that the fastest growing professional services firms, they're putting 50 percent of their effort and investment into the top of the funnel marketing techniques. So when we're talking about super bowl ads, you know, professional services, you know, 99. 9 percent of professional service companies. The Super Bowl is like way even, it's so far out of the stratosphere, it's not even possible, right? But, what about like, what about like a conference, right? Like a conference sponsorship, where the leading voices and the leading players are. Like, is there, have you invested in a strategy there, even though it's a little bit more soft, it's a little bit more higher in the marketing funnel per se, as you might say. Um, I, I, when we talk to a lot of our clients, I, they are surprised to hear that so much effort and investment. into that top of funnel visibility piece. Um, like Vanessa said in the article, it, you know, I, you want to be top of mind. You want to be first on that, on that first list. So making visibility plays, even though they don't necessarily generate leads right away or convert right away, it's still got to be a part of the marketing mix, I think.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 10:17

There's also just the reality of the, you know, the, the marketing budget, right? I mean, if we're trying to equate this to the Super Bowl ads, I mean, I think it was 8, 000, 000, uh, for a 30, 30 seconds of airtime for a Super Bowl commercial this year. It's just not in the cards for a lot of B2B. And as you said, 99. 9, uh, probably a percent of. Okay. Professional services firms,

Austin McNair: 10:39

yeah, and it's not to say that there were zero, right? Like Joe, I think you, you called out that like Salesforce, they, they ran a spot and there was a couple others and what, what were the themes of those ads, right? They were, they were star studded. Um, Joe, I think you were talking about that, that before.

Joe Pope: 10:55

Yeah. Matthew McConaughey. Uh, he's, he's, he's been the Salesforce figurehead for a couple of years now. Uh, and I think this year he's getting like rained on, for example. And, uh, you know, uh, you got Woody Harrelson hanging out across the street. And so there's like a humor play to this as well, and creating and tying in how, Salesforce products, I Our boy, Matt, you know, he's not going to get rained on because he wouldn't be booked into an outdoor spot during a storm. Right? So there's some humor. There's some levity to that. Uh, you know, but I think one of the things that really stood out as well in what you were saying earlier in terms of the emotion side of this, uh, that's a, that's another angle to here too. Right? Like, cause if you can draw to a specific, yeah. And this is what I was talking about with the B2B side, that issue, those challenges, things along those lines. I don't think you need to be in the Superbowl stratosphere to be able to capture that type of expertise and that type of the space of the marketplace of ideas. Um, you know, I think one thing from the hinge perspective that we've seen over and over and over again, both with our clients and in our research is that when organizations make an investment into. Visibility of their experts, their individuals that allows you to really kind of play off the one to one emotion, right? It's you're not the big brand anymore. You're Austin McNair. You're Mary Blanche, right? I mean, there's there is a connection piece there that can help make. Uh, and and seal the deal when somebody is going through and thinking, who are the experts in the space? Or who's the talker? Who's the person who's talking on this issue these days? And and when we go back to that larger discussion point about being on that day, 1 list, that's an angle that doesn't cost you millions upon millions of dollars to build. Organizations in the professional services space. I mean, if you're not content marketing right now, you're not, you're not marketing, right? I don't think I need to explain that to anybody who's going to listen to this podcast, but start to brand those efforts around individuals, around experts. I there what's there. I remember the old thinking there was, and we've heard, certainly we've heard people say this. It's you take an expert. What happens if they leave? I'm like, okay, well, what happens if they don't stay? If you're not thinking along the lines of being productive and forward thinking, you're going to continue to run into those types of challenges. So, I mean, when somebody says that to me, it's I have to a lot of times resist the urge to eye roll. Now that we're all on zoom, uh, and in high definition, uh, but yeah, I mean, it's, it is a constant fact here that if we can make the right types of investments in the right places, you don't need millions of dollars. It's. Okay. Being smart with those dollars.

Austin McNair: 13:38

Well, these are, uh, some pretty, I would say rock solid, uh, Reflections here on the Super Bowl advertising. I mean, I don't, I'm glad that we're focused on the, the advertising piece, because I don't want to think about the, the game. Uh, the Eagles, uh, not a fan. Joe, not a fan. Uh, NB, I can't remember. What, what, what NFL team do you, do you back?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 14:00

lines all

Austin McNair: 14:01

Lions. Okay, we've got a couple of Lions

Joe Pope: 14:03

Well, that worked well for us

Austin McNair: 14:04

Yeah, that worked well for the commanders

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 14:06

Yeah. Let's,

Austin McNair: 14:07

Uh, but yeah, hopefully next year, uh, I'm not going to complain though. Whatever, you know, let's, uh, transition now into our next segment, uh, which we are calling fact or fiction. Alright everyone, this is the, uh, portion of the podcast here where I want to pause. I want to let you know that, uh, if you haven't yet, you need to download Hinge's High growth study. And that's from this year, 2025, you go to hinge marketing. com slash high growth. You'll get the free executive summary of the research results. It's something we're going to be using and talking about in our next segment here. But if you haven't read, gotten that yet, go to that URL, pick up your free report. Uh, it is a great way to kind of get to know what the fastest growing, uh, firms, uh, are doing in the professional services space.

Joe Pope: 14:54

We just talked about visible expertise. Visible expertise is an important piece of any marketing program for professional services organizations. So important, in fact, that we've written now two books on this, including the Visible Expert Revolution. And you can find the Visible Expert Revolution on Amazon. I think that's pretty much the place where we've committed to making it available, but you can have it in paper copy. Uh, you can have it in hardback. And for those of you who are being sustainability focused. You can download it for your e reader as well.

Austin McNair: 15:25

There is an e reader version, that's true. Cool. So, High Growth Study, Visible Expert Book. There's a lot of resources out there that we're putting out there to help you grow in your professional services career and help your company grow faster. Enjoy. All right. It's time to move to our second segment of the podcast. As you guys know, in spiraling up, we like to have a little bit of fun, bring a little bit of lightness and, and, and, and good positive energy to the world of professional services marketing. We do that by playing some games. And so in today's game. Uh, we're going to go head to head. It's going to be MB and Joe versus myself. You guys, I have put together a series of, I think it's seven statements and they're going to either be true or false. And the source of this is going to be from our 2025 high growth study. So my intent here is to see if I can trick you with some of these statements. See if I can lead you, you know, kind of in certain directions, but ultimately here, what we're trying to decide, what we're trying to, to, to share with our audience is what were some of the primary findings from the 2025 high growth study and how could they implement some of that at their business? You guys ready to get started?

Joe Pope: 16:38

going seven for seven.

Austin McNair: 16:39

All right. Seven for seven. He said,

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 16:41

I'm gonna be scorekeeper,

Austin McNair: 16:43

okay, yeah, be scorekeeper

Joe Pope: 16:45

have like a pad of paper. You're going to keep score.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 16:48

You sure do.

Austin McNair: 16:49

Okay. Yeah. If I didn't say it, we're going with this week's game is fact or fiction. So Joe and be number one fact or fiction. The percentage of revenue that professional services firms dedicate to their marketing is actually going up right now. Fact or fiction.

Joe Pope: 17:13

Okay. So we want us to work together on this, right? Like

Austin McNair: 17:16

Yeah. Work together. What do

Joe Pope: 17:17

together with a combined answer. So I know last year that, uh, marketing expenses went down. Uh, that was, uh, that was a finding that I remember from this study. Uh, now of course. You know, there's so many factors that lead into various things here. I don't know. And B, I think my mind immediately goes towards that because it went down last year, then spend probably went up this year. You know, just, you know, your rise, you've got your equaling out, if you will, like you're progressing to the mean, if you would talk about a three year average. So do you like that logic or,

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 17:54

It's, yeah, I'm going with fact. A hundred percent. And this also just makes me think of a whole nother game that we have to have eventually, where it's like you hit the buzzer. Because if we had been playing that way and we were playing against each other, I was, I mean, no thought required,

Joe Pope: 18:08

Oh, so you were, you were, you were fat from the start. Okay. We're going seven for seven. And be as confident, I think we're supposed to say final answer. Is

Austin McNair: 18:17

Okay. Final answer is in. So you guys, you guys, what I'm hearing you say is there's a bounce back here in terms of marketing spending. You guys were right that last year marketing spending was down. However, you were wrong because it continued to stay down in 2025. So according to our data between 2020 and 2022 professional services firms Made big investments in marketing everything like the whole percentage of revenue shot up. I think it was around 15 percent somewhere between 12 50 percent over that three year period but then Last year big pullback and actually it has stayed down at those levels for this past year as well So actually I'm one for one. I tricked you guys but I, I'm more curious. What do you guys think? Um, you know, I, I know there's a lot of, uh, marketing directors out there that are trying to advocate for, for more marketing dollars right now. Um, what kind of advice do we usually typically give when marketing directors are trying to fight for more, um, you know, a larger percentage of, of, of money to come their way?

Joe Pope: 19:30

Yeah. I it's a, it's a good question. I mean, other than being able to point to things like the high gross study and some of the various ways of which organizations are getting the best bang from their buck in terms of. Efforts or channels, tactics, elements along those lines. It's a big reason why we make such a commitment to developing these types of content pieces and putting them out into the sphere of words and thoughts. But I mean, a few that come to mind certainly are that just. Because times may change. I mean, you talk about that bubble, if you will, if we're going to use that term, I think a major piece of that was, of course, the influx of money that was being pushed into the marketing space through things like PPP loans and other areas. Right? So, um, you know, you get that type of experience, you get that type of element, but it doesn't change the fact that organizations are going to need to put themselves out there, market themselves. The space can't be getting even more competitive than it is. You've got. Challenges of differentiation, you've got mergers and acquisitions running rampant and, you know, M and a, although a way to grow an organization is not a marketing tactic. Right? And it's also not realistic for a good portion of people and organizations. So, uh, you can't just expect to think that if you don't put any time or thought or money into this, that you're going to see results, uh, generative AI. That's the big topic right now. Right? In terms of, uh, where. Yeah. SEO was king for a while, and now you're seeing editorials saying SEO is dead. So there is still a place for marketing investment. If, if I'm answering your question and also touting the fact that you've got agencies like ours that understand this space and we're, you know, we're capable of helping you get there.

Austin McNair: 21:18

Definitely. Any other thoughts for you? I mean, I know you've talked to a lot of our clients over the years about, um, you know, how they make investments in marketing. I mean, have you noticed any, any kind of particular challenges that clients are typically having when it comes to advocating for more marketing dollars?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 21:36

Yeah, you know, well, first, I think I have to taper my confidence a little bit because I was really, really sure of my answer. So congrats on the first point. Um, but, you know, no, I, I think, you know, with the clients that we have, you know, I think one of the reasons I was. you know, so surprised is because, you know, from an account perspective for hand, you know, we are continuing to build into these accounts with a lot of the routine based model that we have around the different digital content creation. And so, um, we're seeing a lot of success there. Um, so it is, I find it very, very interesting that that's, you know, It's a little different than, than what the

Joe Pope: 22:20

At the global level.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 22:21

Yeah, right. Yeah.

Austin McNair: 22:22

Yeah. I mean, one kind of to put kind of tie a bow on this. I mean, if you're looking for any kind of advocacy, or point or research statement to kind of back up advocating for more marketing spend. Our high growth study validates that high growth firms actually spend more on marketing than slower growing companies. So there is a correlation there between the companies that are paying attention more, there are investing more, they are, you know, going deeper, like you're saying, and be into kind of the content marketing space and really taking it levels deeper. Um, there is a correlation there between those and the companies that are growing faster.

Joe Pope: 22:58

makes sense. That makes sense.

Austin McNair: 23:00

All right. So it's one to zero. I, um, I, did you guys think I was going to start off with a lie? Ah, I'm kind of a tricky guy. So don't try to, uh, don't, don't, don't think of it like

Joe Pope: 23:10

into it.

Austin McNair: 23:11

Don't. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, you know, maybe, maybe I did make the, the, the, maybe these are all going to be lies. We'll see. Um, all right. Fact or fiction creating content is the top marketing priority of 2025 for high growth firms. Let me give you a little bit of color commentary here. Here's some other options that might be the number one answer. Uh, outreach for speaking and writing, developing thought leaders, social media marketing, and brand differentiation. So there's, there's four other options for you. Uh, and then what I'm saying is that content marketing was the top priority of high growth firms. What do you think? Fact or fiction? Ha ha ha.

Joe Pope: 23:56

I kind of like the last one, if I'm being honest, the brand differentiation as a, like a, as a concern. I mean, content marketing is obviously an extremely important piece and we talked it already, but talk about it a few times already in this episode. Um, Also, I don't trust you at this point. You're just going to keep giving us false ones to make us look bad. So, uh, Envy, what do you think?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 24:21

Uh, I was feeling good about content marketing until I heard,

Joe Pope: 24:26

All

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 24:27

I heard the last one. Now I'm not sure. No, I, I feel, I feel confident it's not the middle three. So, what do you think?

Joe Pope: 24:33

yeah, let's, let's, let's go false. Ah,

Austin McNair: 24:38

it's going to be two to zero. My direction here, uh, content creation actually is the top marketing priority of 2025. Um, and I did kind of a reverse order there. Number two on the list was brand differentiation, followed by social media marketing, um, developing thought leaders was four, and then outreach and speaking and writing was number five. Um, Yeah, this is this has stood out to me, um, in in previous years as well, because I think in the 2024 study, this was, um, also the number one answer. Brand differentiation. If you kind of look back a few years in our research, this is a 10 year old study, by the way. So this is we've been doing this for a while. Um, the brand differentiation was number one for quite some time. Um, and we did talk, you know, as a marketing agency, especially like, how do we help companies differentiate themselves? Um, we've entered a period now, though, where I think that As far as like a non negotiable marketing priority for high growth firms, it starts with the content. And then you can even fold in the layers of those other options I gave you, like how do we make con content, for example, that is differentiated, that is a little bit different. How do we make content that does develop our thought leaders and kind of raise their v their their expertise of the visibility of their expertise. Um, but yeah, content marketing is the number one priority. You guys have any thoughts on that?

Joe Pope: 26:00

well, I think you've kind of laid it out there and okay, here's my question since you've got the data right in front of you, what was the gap between content and brand differentiation

Austin McNair: 26:09

Okay, so you're asking about the, the, the gap between, uh, the

Joe Pope: 26:14

number one and two, if you will?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 26:16

Yeah.

Austin McNair: 26:16

It was about five percentage points. So it wasn't the, it wasn't a huge gap. It wasn't a small gap. Uh, it's, it's interesting. We'll put the chart on the screen for people, but it's kind of just goes down about three to four percentage points from content creation down to brand differentiation down to social media marketing. Um, and, and from there, um, so yeah, those were the top priorities for, for the high growth firms this year.

Joe Pope: 26:40

I think it's also just, I mean, we're obviously picking at various elements here, but everything that you referenced and everything that you can see on the screen is important. Like these are the top ways that organizations are utilizing as a part of their, their marketing approach. Apparatus, if you will,

Austin McNair: 26:58

All right. So it is two to zero. Uh, let's see if I can keep this going with, you know, my, my tricky fact or fiction questions. So Joe and B fact or fiction unpredictability in the marketplace is the number one business challenge of professional services firms. So let me, similar to the last one, let me give you a couple of alternatives that were at the top of the list. Uh, increased competition from new competitors. Was, was it within the top three? As well as incorporating AI and automation into your business. But my statement is saying that the number one is unpredictability in the marketplace. What do you guys think? Fact or fiction?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 27:41

I was gonna say a truth. It's, it's fact. It's a fact. Yeah.

Joe Pope: 27:44

I, I lean that way too. I think unpredictability, you've got plenty going on in the marketplace right now. That would make sense. Obviously these are the top three AI. Big, big, big talking point. But I also think that if you're talking about cross professional services, some of these sub industries and niches, they just, they're not in that realm yet. So AI doesn't make much sense to me. Watch it be AI, but yeah, we'll go with that.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 28:10

Well, but even with AI, like, I mean, I think there is some, like, uncertainty there as well, right? Um, with like what that is and what's to be and what's to be coming. So I, I, I even think that is a contributing factor to why it's a,

Austin McNair: 28:26

Mm hmm. So in, in 2024, unpredictability in the marketplace was the number one business challenge, but this year it was actually flipped. Incorporating AI and automation into your business was the number one business challenge of professional services firms across the board. So regardless of growth category, not high growth, not low growth, just like looking at the space in general, um, 50 percent uh, had this as the top challenge, uh, or as one of their top challenges. Um, the next one on the list was increased competition from new competitors. That was at 37%. So, when we talk about like AI and technology, uh, being kind of this big theme in the space, uh, it's clear that coming off of this big year of AI just being in every headline. Um, being in every advertisement, uh, being at the, you know, in every boardroom conversation, um, you know, this has translated into our data where people are wondering, marketers are wondering, how do we incorporate this into our workflows? How do we work, you know, into our business, um, and get something out of it? Because I think, I think a lot of people are worried or concerned that if they're not using AI and other people in the space are, that they're going to get left behind. Um, so. MBI, you know, I'll give you maybe a half a point there by saying that, you know, AI kind of, you know, as to the unpredictability. But, um, you know, one thing that we did see in this year's data is that the narrative really did kind of turn the page on unpredictability, which is really a sentiment from the era of the pandemic and like how businesses were feeling for that. And now it's like now we specifically know what's what the unpredictability is. It's all about AI and automation.

Joe Pope: 30:18

mean, I think there's logic behind it. The thing that surprises me is that while I could certainly see it in a few industries, uh, to have that be 50 percent across the board, recognizing that this study is, you know, what thousand plus respondents, right, Austin, uh, it is a big eye opener, especially for I think it's, it's, it's really Leaders and organizations that aren't talking about it, because if the organizations that are growing fast and their peers are talking about it and you're not connect the dots.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 30:50

Yeah, I mean, it's it's at the forefront of of everyone's mind right now. So, I think that definitely underscores kind of where we're headed.

Austin McNair: 30:58

it does. And I'm excited that in future episodes, we're going to get to talk to some guests who are kind of leaders in this space and maybe more in the cutting edge of this. I mean, I will say as someone myself who's trying to stay as like, you know, open to testing new tools and kind of integrating this into the way that we market ourselves. Um, it's challenging. I mean, it just changes every day. And then it's like you think you found like a good tool and it's like, Oh no, this one over here is way better. It's just like It's that the space is so hot and kind of bubbling right now with like new stuff Um, I can see why this was number one on the list All right. So I think that you guys I believe in you guys. I think that there is a way for you guys to come back I I know I've been a little bit, you know I led you off with a lie and then you know, I've been kind of teasing you a little bit I think you guys can make a comeback here. It

Joe Pope: 31:49

well, you did give us a free half point, which we are

Austin McNair: 31:51

Okay. Right. So it's three to three to 0. 5, I guess. Yeah. Um, let's go into this next one. All right. So MB Joe fact or fiction, most high growth firms rate themselves as highly proficient when it comes to capturing and using marketing metrics. So, this was a question that we included in this year's study. I think it was probably one of the, the most interesting, you know, uh, questions that we've added to the study this year. Um, and by growth category, we're looking at fast growing firms, slower growing firms. Um, my question to you guys is, of the high growth firms, were they confident, were they highly confident in the proficiency of capturing and using marketing, uh, metrics? It would make sense.

Joe Pope: 32:41

I'm going to say fiction right off the bat and there is probably the worst scientific rationale behind this. Based on the conversations that I fairly regularly have in my role here at Inge in talking to organizations of all different shapes and sizes and all different growth categories, if they're saying that they're highly proficient. In this study, I'm concerned with what actually a lot of other pieces are coming from because a good portion of them are not. And if they feel like they are, the actual results that they're getting from it aren't very solid. And we just see that across, it's, it's one of the biggest things that we're helping clients with on an ongoing basis is helping them develop that proficiency. And unifying efforts at the top end of the funnel all the way down to the bottom. So, uh, clearly I'm very passionate about this. So MB, talk me out of it. 1.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 33:39

no, I'm not gonna talk you out of it. I was gonna say for your last point. Um, I, I would, I would agree with you.

Austin McNair: 33:45

Uh, you guys are right. Yeah, that's now, uh, three, three to one and a half, uh, on the scoreboard here. Yeah.

Joe Pope: 33:54

call it a comeback.

Austin McNair: 33:55

To me, I, you know, Joe, I, I know that you're kind of on the front lines, especially with talking with some of our prospects and kind of newer clients about this. And, um, but it has been a theme that's been coming up quite a bit is just how, um, you know, when it comes to using the marketing metrics and capturing them, um, Um, Um, it is a challenge. I mean, there's so many in people's tech stacks. Smart tech stacks are all completely different. You have people that are in the Salesforce side, you know, universe, you have people in the HubSpot universe and then all these kind of shared platforms in between platforms like LinkedIn, then everybody's on, you know, different email marketing platforms. Uh, I mean, it, it gets messy. And I think that most people, most professional services firms have their own unique challenges. Um, and so, So, when it came to the actual confidence levels of, who was saying that they were proficient, like, or highly proficient in their, using marketing, and business development metrics, only 11 percent of the high growth

Joe Pope: 34:56

that makes sense.

Austin McNair: 34:57

tag themselves as highly proficient. Now, there was an advantage there, the, the, the low growth firms, the no growth firms. Um, they were far less likely to say they were highly proficient, even somewhat proficient. They were less likely of the low growth category. It was 66 percent said they had low proficiency, um, in, in capturing and using marketing and business development metrics. It just seems like a big theme that I think we should continue to explore and touch on because. I have a feeling that this is secretly a big challenge for marketers. Um, I'm going to go out and just say kind of a bold statement. Like I think as marketers, we are expected to be thinking about ROI all the time, right? It's like one on one level marketing. It's the, it's like what we learn in marketing school, right? It's like you, you do the marketing thing and you measure the results. But I, I, I honestly think that, um, It is the best kept secret in marketing right now that people are really having a hard time. So, like having solid, more concrete, uh, use out of their marketing metrics and marketing data. I think people are really, um, struggling with just the volume of it and the disorganized, disorganization of it.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 36:15

Yeah, well, there's so many tools out there now. Um, you know, it's kind of hard to, to know, you know, which one to go with or which has, you know, the most accurate data. And I think 1 thing that we're seeing a lot of too, is that because there are so many systems I've built within an infrastructure of an organization, you know. They're, they're siloed and that data, the data isn't all necessarily talking to one another. So, you know, when you can create, uh, an environment where you have an ecosystem of tools that are all speaking to one another, and then using that to create the dashboards to give you those marketing metrics, I mean, that's, that's the gold

Austin McNair: 36:51

So, um, one of the ways that when we did this part of the research, one of the interesting things we did. We first had people rate themselves, you know, on a scale of one to ten, which is where we land the highly proficient, somewhat proficient, or low proficiency. If the company said that they were in that low proficiency category, we actually gave them a verbatim box, and we just said, why did you give that answer? Like, why did you say that you feel like you have a low proficiency? Here, here's some of the things that they came up with. Lack of bandwidth and lack of expertise. Not systematically capturing the data, low return on investment. So there's an idea there that, you know, actually, actually cap, you know, paying attention to your marketing mix or marketing, uh, metrics is not worth the time. Um, we also had someone saying the data is not accurate or reliable. It takes too much time. Uh, time, time. I see time a lot on here. Uh, we don't measure. Uh, we don't have time. It's just a lot of the same

Joe Pope: 37:58

so wild.

Austin McNair: 37:59

Um, but it's just really fascinating, the reasons. And I'm excited to unpack this more in future episodes when we talk to folks about this. But it's like, again, I can't go, I can't stress enough. It seems like, um, this is a more obvious problem that people, that many professional services marketers are willing to admit.

Joe Pope: 38:18

Yeah. It's the time thing is so crazy, right? Because in, in concept, if you're using these types of tools, getting this data and information should be faster. should be at your fingertips. It should be going through the dashboards and graphics that are promised to you by the numerous SAS organizations that we've referenced in some of which can afford Superbowl ads. But what this to me, like you said, shines a big light on is, is probably opportunity, frankly speaking, that if high growth firms are kind of at a level, but no, and low growth firms are like bottomed out, completely not there. If you're. Even just trying to make inroads into being able to find success with, from your marketing efforts, making a good commitment to this. And that probably comes in all different shapes and sizes. Sounds like we definitely need to get a guest in this space on the implementation side to join us and discuss it. Um, yeah, I, I think that there's an inroad there that are, that our listeners, that marketers specifically need to be thinking about.

Austin McNair: 39:25

Alright, so MB, can you remind us, what's the score? Right now,

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 39:30

you would often, uh, it is three to 1. 5.

Austin McNair: 39:35

three to 1. 5. Okay, great.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 39:38

call it a comeback yet, but

Joe Pope: 39:39

No, it's about to happen though. We're going to two goal lead in hockey is the most dangerous lead. And then you've got a two and a half goalie or

Austin McNair: 39:46

There we go.

Joe Pope: 39:47

I can't do math.

Austin McNair: 39:49

All right. And be Joe factor fiction speaking at targeted events has the best return on effort for high growth firms. So all of the marketing techniques that we asked companies about what they do, how much effort do they put into it? And then also how much impact they get back from it. My statement is that the number one, uh, marketing technique on that list is speaking at targeted conferences. What say you? Fact or fiction?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 40:20

you give us some

Joe Pope: 40:21

Yeah. Are we getting the top three?

Austin McNair: 40:23

Uh, top three I don't have, but some other examples would be things like, uh, social, networking on social media, email marketing, um, Uh, I probably should have had a top three here to confuse you guys. So considering I don't have the top three ready for you guys, what do you guys think? Factor fiction.

Joe Pope: 40:47

Since you don't have the top three ready for us. I, I really definitely lean towards the fiction angle, especially since you've now given that would probably be the, what, the fourth of five fictions. And you, you seem to be playing that role today.

Austin McNair: 41:02

I'll give you another chance here. I don't have an alternative for you. This is kind of my statement. Is it fact or fiction?

Joe Pope: 41:10

I think speaking is important. I'm sure it's in the top five. Um, but I, I'm really, I'm going to lean into the, I think you are continued to try to jerk us around. So I'm going to go with fiction with that. I also know that last year there was a huge business development tools, collaterals, material angle on this exact same question, uh, in 2024. So, uh, I'm going to stick with that, that being kind of probably what's at the top and I'll go with fiction. How did I sound? Did I sound convincing and be me versus Austin in this circumstance?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 41:46

I'm going to go with fiction too. I think it's up there. I just don't think it's. That's the number one.

Austin McNair: 41:52

I tried to give you guys a chance there. It is a fact. It is a fact. It is the number one, uh, uh, marketing technique when it comes to return on effort. Now, Joe, I think what you were thinking through was we also measure impact, right? What are the top things where high growth firms get the most impact? And there you see things like demos and consultation offers, business development materials, the things that help close deals, right? That's the easiest thing to kind of like adjust and say, well, there's the impact. We used that, we sold the deal. Speaking engagements was the number one thing when it came to return on effort for high growth firms. I think it just goes into the nature of what it means to be an authoritative voice and to be in a space of people that are relevant to the buyers that you're trying to get in front of. And if you have that combination of like you're speaking directly to a challenge that your buyers have and you're, you're, you're in a position of authority, it works really, really well. And I think it stands behind kind of like, That overall strategy of having thought leaders at your company. Be a part of the marketing program. So, uh, yeah, I tried to steer you guys kind of towards the fact that time. But what do you think? Does it make sense?

Joe Pope: 43:12

Yeah, I mean, it's, uh, it's a clearly an amazing way to create visibility, especially when it's paired with some of the other activities that, you know, organizations who are taking a serious approach to conferences, not just the, you know, let's just fly out there and have a good time. Not that I'm against that. I think we're going to be heading to a conference. A few of us. In Arizona with our, our friends at the association of accounting marketing, and that's always a good time. Uh, but you know, the idea that, you know, on top of that, if you can create visibility by having one of those experts of which we've been talking about the benefit of that, um, there's a nice way to just create that. Flagpole in a issue or a topic or things along those lines, because, I mean, if you've got someone who's able to able to stand up on that stage for 10, 15, 30, 60 minutes and deliver something that is of value, that is insightful, that it's tied to data and metrics, then, uh. Yeah, impact should follow

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 44:12

Yeah, I mean, this is another one where it's like, you know, we push this so much with our own clients and our visible expert program, you know, it's just, it's, it's really important and, you know, you need to, you need to be doing it, especially, you know, if you want to differentiate yourself and in the marketplace with your firm and, and just yourself as a visible expert. Um, so again, like, I'm still surprised it's number one, but, um, yeah. Congrats on the point, Austin.

Austin McNair: 44:40

Thank you. Yeah, that might we might need to put this set the point system aside here in a minute. Um, I mean,

Joe Pope: 44:47

Jesus

Austin McNair: 44:48

look, we're learning here. This was challenging. You know, I'm putting you guys on the spot with, you know, with with regard to data. It's not always the easiest thing to it. To to know, you know, what's fact and fiction right off the spot. I've got two more for you though. Let's, let's run through these. So fact or fiction while once more impactful, uh, in the past, presenting in webinars reported to be low impact, a low impact marketing technique today, webinars, do we think that they, uh, tend to be impactful today or, um, has their day since passed and they're no longer. uh, impactful.

Joe Pope: 45:27

Hmm.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 45:29

I don't think their day has passed.

Joe Pope: 45:30

Yeah. I don't know if I'd say it's past like that. It's that it's low impact. So are you saying that more high growth organizations, if we unpack the angle of the question, more high growth organizations are saying that webinars are low impact for them.

Austin McNair: 45:46

The result of this answer is going to be either that it was at the bottom of the list or it was like towards the top of the list. So it's like, it's not in the middle. It's, it's either one or the other. It's like, it's very clearly on one side.

Joe Pope: 45:59

Hmm. Yeah. I don't know if it's low impact. I have a hard time believing that it's low impact. And if it is, that's a bit of an eye opener because it's such a significant effort. That organizations take on in order to create content, uh, and certainly if you're doing it, right, you're not just talking in a webinar. I mean, you're using it as a part of a larger nurture sequence. You're chopping up topics and points, putting them into social media, pose, inviting co presenters. So, yeah, I'd be surprised if it was a low, low. And so I'm agreeing with you, like you said, I don't think it's low.

Austin McNair: 46:43

All right. Final answer.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 46:45

Final answer.

Austin McNair: 46:46

You're correct, Joe. You're correct. That's actually a false statement. presenting and webinars is still reported to be in the top 10 marketing techniques in terms of impact for all professional services firms. I actually think it was, uh, I did a training on, on, on webinars earlier today coincidentally. Um, and I think number six, it's, it's number six on the list in terms of, um, uh, impact overall. I, you know, I think similar to some of those other lower funnel marketing techniques that we ask about. Webinars are a little bit of an easier marketing technique to kind of trace attribution, right? You run a webinar, you, you, you provide a call to action, people can accept that call to action. And then you have like a clear direct path from like, we did this thing. And, um, this person, this potential prospect or business opportunity responded to it. Um, and, and we can attribute it there. So generally speaking, yeah. Um, you know, but. Kind of going beyond just the easy attribution. I think it goes back to the thing too with speaking engagements where getting your experts in front of an audience of people who have, you know, taken, you know, they've blocked off their calendar. They're in the space to listen to your experts talk about key issues. I think it's really an invaluable, um, Um, thing to add into your marketing mix to give your experts that platform in kind of a virtual environment. So, you know, the jitters of public speaking are a little bit less, you know, um, acute. It's a little bit easier to talk in a webinar than it is like on a big stage. Um, and, you know, experts can get that time in front of their audience to share and to demonstrate their expertise. So, you know, Yeah, I agree with you guys. Uh, good, good selection there. Webinars are, are still to this day perceived to be very impactful for professional services marketing.

Joe Pope: 48:37

I'm just really happy that we're not selling trainings on a tactic that, uh, is not impactful because that would not be a good business model for us. So glad to hear that when you, you delivered that training today, it's still, it's still an important fact.

Austin McNair: 48:52

Absolutely. Alright, this is the last one. I think the scoreboard is pretty close. That, that, that brought you guys back a little bit. I think I might have sealed the deal at four points, but you guys are, you guys are getting close here. And I think it'll

Joe Pope: 49:04

need to find another half point somewhere.

Austin McNair: 49:06

We can actually make this last one, if you want, winner take all. Let's see, let's see what you think about this one. So,

Joe Pope: 49:11

final jeopardy. We

Austin McNair: 49:12

Final Jeopardy,

Joe Pope: 49:13

do we want

Austin McNair: 49:14

all the points. Yeah. Cause the points, they matter a lot right now.

Joe Pope: 49:18

Yeah.

Austin McNair: 49:20

So, MB, Joe, fact or fiction, the most common type of research that high growth firms conduct is competitive research. So they are doing research. on their competitors. That's the most common type of research that they are doing. Some alternatives to that would be client research, SEO, marketplace research. There's a few others on that list, but I'm saying that competitives, the competitors, that's what the high growth firms are focused on. What do you guys think? Fact or fiction?

Joe Pope: 49:58

Oof. MB, what do you think? Where's your mind go right off the bat? Because clearly when I've tried to steer us, it doesn't always go in the right direction.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 50:07

Uh, I mean, I was thinking, like, brand over, brand visibility over competitor.

Joe Pope: 50:15

Like what did our clients think of us or what does the marketplace think of us versus what is somebody else look like? Oh, I love that. Austin's nodding that that's a good sign. He's giving us the cue.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 50:26

Maybe gave it away.

Joe Pope: 50:27

I think he might've given it away there. This is why, this is why this needs to be a video podcast as opposed to us just talking because the viewer right now would have missed Austin nodding along to your very well thought out, uh, point there and be, I'm going fiction. It is not the top way that organizations are researching or high growth organizations are researching.

Austin McNair: 50:50

All right, if that's the final answer then yeah, you are correct that is in fact fiction the

Joe Pope: 50:59

been watching you the whole time. I could have probably gotten more of these right

Austin McNair: 51:02

You definitely would have

Joe Pope: 51:04

of staring off into the distance.

Austin McNair: 51:05

couple of questions ago I was like giving you like the answer. And you did, you weren't looking, uh, um, no, yeah. The most common type of research for high growth firms is actually, um, when they're focusing on their clients, it's the client research. Um, I think that is like a mentality shift, right? Like the, the mentality like MP was saying, it's like thinking about your own buyers, thinking about your own clients, understanding them. Um, there is a correlation there between the high growth firms and, and the ones that are, you know, prioritizing that. So yeah, you, you got it. I mean, anything else to say there kind of on that, that the distinction there about where, I mean, I guess one thing I would say is like, it's not the competitive research is not important. Like that was still high up on the list. And as you know, when we do research projects, we also factor in the competitive analysis as part of kind of the overall research project. But I think the non negotiable in the process is, Understanding your own buyers, understanding your own clients, and, and not taking that for granted, or not taking their perspectives for granted, and, and, and learning as much as you can from them. Uh, anything else to, to add there?

Joe Pope: 52:11

mean, the competitive space shifts so often that while I think competitive research has a good place, you know, whereas asking questions of our clients and where, where do we stay in the marketplace and in their perspective or the types of buyers we care about is going to carry more, just logically is going to carry more value. Uh, and, and as we know, organizations that grow fast in their peers, they typically do things that are going to carry more value, hence the reason they make more money and have higher profitability. So, yeah, I, I, I think we probably talked ourselves into it, uh, with the assistance of your nonverbal cues. Uh, please continue next time we play a game like this to not make us look the way we look today. Uh,

Austin McNair: 52:52

No, I, I mean, I think we put all the points on that last question, so you guys, you guys won. I, I got to have my fun, I got to be a little tricky. Um, thanks for participating with me, you guys. I mean, but this is the, you know, this is kind of the way that we want to approach this podcast. Let's have a little bit of fun. Let's gamify, you know, some of the data, some of the findings. And I'm excited that in upcoming episodes, we're going to get to do that. We're going to get some perspectives from some other leading voices. We may also do some other podcasts with just the three of us again, or some other, uh, hinge experts that, you know, are, you know, totally, you know, in terms of their space, their industry. Um, or their specialization, their, you know, masters of their craft. So, uh, I'm excited to, to, to, to run more episodes with you guys. I want to thank you for, you know, participating in today's episode. And to all those listening, thanks for listening. This has been another episode of spiraling up and we'll see you on the next one. Thank you.