Spiraling Up — Marketing For Professional Services

Is LinkedIn Cringe? + Busting Myths About Podcasting, with John Tyreman

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How do High Growth professional services firms go to market today? Download the 2025 High Growth Study to find out: https://www.hingemarketing.com/highgrowth

In today's episode of Spiraling Up, Austin, Joe, and MB look at the cringy side of LinkedIn, exploring some of the most awkward moments on the platform. Then, they welcome podcast expert John Tyreman to debunk common myths about podcasting in professional services, like:

  • Myth #1: Podcasts don't work in professional services
  • Myth #2: You need a huge audience to start a podcast
  • Myth #3: Only charismatic personalities can be successful hosts
  • Myth #4: Creating ROI from a podcast is impossible
  • Myth #5: Podcasting is a fad that will soon fade away

Connect with John Tyreman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johntyreman/
Visit the Red Cedar Marketing website: https://www.redcedarmarketing.com/

Austin McNair:

In today's episode of Spiraling Up, we'll take a look at the cringing your side of LinkedIn, and then we're talking to podcast expert John Tyreman so that we can bust some myths about podcasting in the professional services space. Welcome everyone. This is spiraling up with Hinge. All right. Welcome everybody to Spiraling Up the marketing podcast That puts a playful twist on the Usual Marketing podcast. If you're a marketer or a business leader in the professional services world, then you are in the right place. What do we do on this podcast? Well, in each episode, we will cover notable stories in the world of marketing, and then we'll invite some leading voices in the industry to play games or take on some hard challenges to share. Their honest insights on what works and what doesn't work in the space of professional services marketing. We are early in this podcast experience. I'm joined by my co-host, Joe Pope. Mary Blanche Kramer. How are you guys doing?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Doing good. Doing good.

Austin McNair:

Mb, I know that you were just traveling in London, England. How was that trip? I know that Joe and I are especially jealous'cause Joe and I are both big English Premier League fans. So the only thing I'm thinking about is did you go see any soccer games? I'm assuming the answer's no. But tell us what did.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

It was great. It was great. We had so much fun. Um, I do a trip every year with, uh, one of my best girlfriends from, from growing up. We just like a different place every year. And this year was London. Uh, so we had a great time. Um, lots of shopping, retail therapy, if you will. Um, but we, we went to the theater. Um, so, uh, gotta see a play. That was fun. Did a

Joe Pope:

What play did you guys see?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Harry Potter

Joe Pope:

Yes,

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

ER's child. We were, um, big Harry Potter nerds as kids. so naturally we had to, we had to just come full circle. honestly, it was great. Some of the, uh, like motion mechanics and kinda like little tricks that they did. Um, really cool, really cool stuff. Um, we went to, we did a tour, like a double decker tour bus. Ate at some great restaurants, beat bopped around, uh, did kind of like an impromptu day trip to Belgium, which, uh, honestly was probably my favorite part of the trip. Um, but yeah, it was a good time.

Austin McNair:

I love that. Just being able to hop over to another country real fast, hop back, no big deal. That's cool. Awesome. Well, I'm glad you got some, some r and r and some time to, to, to refresh. Welcome back, Joe. Everything going good for you?

Joe Pope:

Yeah. Uh, other than if you're talking soccer, my team lost in a very tragic fashion. Uh, and I thought you were gonna go there when you were teeing up mb. But, uh, you know, I think, I think it's great, you know, and one thing mb that stands out to me, uh, and I know you've been a big advocate for this and you talk to some of our other colleagues and so forth, is the idea of taking these types of. Impromptu trips or impromptu activities involving yourself in like this r and r type of process. So you can rest, refresh, and then come back and ready to roll. Uh, it's so cool to, you know, even just hear this rundown of how you guys have had it such a good time doing this.

Austin McNair:

Well, uh, I imagine that today's pivotal story does not have a lot to do with your trip in London. Hopefully you were able to stay off the internet and specifically maybe stay off of LinkedIn. Uh, why don't you tell us about what our pivotal story is about today?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Sure. All right. So Austin, you sent around a, a funny video earlier in the week, and that's really what sparked the topic for today's pivotal story. So today we're gonna be talking all things LinkedIn. Now, as professional services marketers, we know the importance that LinkedIn plays as a social platform, but in pop culture, LinkedIn has been known to have a bit of a funny reputation, honestly. Um, but before I say more Austin, let's. How about you pull up the video that, that you sent around to, to kind of kick us off here?

Austin McNair:

All right, let's, let's pull it up and, uh, take, take a watch at this.

N/A:

Moved on within a week with my. Best friend's mom, and at first I was totally crushed, but the more that I thought about it, I realized that. I had failed to conduct a proper competitive analysis. Here's how that heartbreak taught me everything that I need to know about B2B sales. One. I assumed I was the only vendor in the pipeline. Nope, Barbara was there. Two, I neglected to assess the competitive landscape. Sometimes your CU customer is wanting to go with a more mature option. Somebody that's been around for longer, like your best friend's mom. Great salespeople know that deals don't go cold without reason, and if they suddenly walk away, chances are they found a better alternative and sometimes it's Barbara hashtag B2B sales. Hashtag Know your Market. Hashtag Love where you work.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

I had to get in that third hashtag.

Joe Pope:

It's always that one.

Austin McNair:

Okay.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Oh, that's good. So I mean, it's, it's true, right? People can, they can be a little odd on LinkedIn sometimes. And you know, I think particularly here, the stretch to drawing on real world examples like this one, you know, they are, they are sometimes over the top, but, uh, what do you guys think is, is LinkedIn cringe? Um, Joe, let's start with you. What's your take?

Joe Pope:

there's a channel on Instagram, uh, called Best of LinkedIn that has become a, a mainstay in the dms of I. Believe the three of us in sharing some of the best examples in terms of some of the more outrageous ways that folks are expressing themselves on the platform. Uh, one that stood out to me recently was a gentleman named Peter, uh, whose title, and obviously I'm not gonna go any further than that, but his title is Search Engine Optimization Specialist and Freelancer. And, uh, it starts with, I have a Secret. Okay. Let's, let's hear it Peter. Most people are not even aware that this is a real thing, but since 2015, I have struggled with peeing in public restrooms.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Stop it.

Joe Pope:

Three sentences in, and I know more about Peter than I think anybody would ever wanna know about Peter, but yes, he did find a way to tie it into a recent trip to Europe, which is why I think this stood out to me. And I'm absolutely not gonna ask you about your, uh, your preferences mb, but I think in general, the challenge with Peter and the fact that the, he has to reference. Urination as a part of a business networking site is already showing something that should just never exist. I don't even think it should exist on any social media platform, let alone LinkedIn.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

It's a bridge too far.

Joe Pope:

It's just very far. I.

Austin McNair:

think that's the point. I mean, I think you know, one of the reasons this, this story. Stood out to us as like, okay, so this is a tension that I think we need to live in as professionals and especially professionals in the professional services marketing space. Like yes, you know, being on LinkedIn does have, its kind of like awkward moments and sometimes you have to be a little bit more enthusiastic about work stuff. Then maybe you really are, you know, sometimes that's the case. But I mean, the bottom line is that in the professional services world, people are using it. For meaningful networking experiences. They're doing it to share thought leadership. And if you can build a community of people in your space that can't be more authentic and like bring real value and expertise to the space we've seen with our clients, with ourselves and from the data that actually it, it, it is a valuable marketing strategy that can't really be ignored. So if I actually go to the. The data from our most recent high growth, study. number two on the list of marketing techniques that are used most often by the fastest growing firms is networking on social media. And then only just below that is, Actually promoting thought leadership on social media as well. And this isn't any social media. We also ask like, what platforms are you using? And LinkedIn is like the dominant one. So there's not really a question about what our data is indicating or saying there. LinkedIn is a space that really matters. I mean, what, so, you know, with that, with that being said, how do you guys handle that tension between, you know, the cringiness of LinkedIn, um, with the actual professional value that we know it has?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Yeah. Well, Austin, let me go back to one of the points you just said about the authenticity piece because I, I think that's so important and such. Just a, a key factor in, in how you do just that. Um,'cause it's at the very core of. Building these meaningful professional relationships and establishing your, you know, your own strong personal brand.'cause people, you know, they, they want that transparency. They, they appreciate honesty and this can make them more inclined to, to want to engage with you. And so then when you compare authenticity with educational meaningful content people, they begin to start to see you as a valuable resource. You know, someone that they can trust for advice or for collaboration, which as we all know, naturally translates into opportunities, whether it's, you know, a job offer, a partnership, a mentorship,

Joe Pope:

some of these platforms can be their own worst enemy though, with that MBI, LinkedIn was purchased by Microsoft in 2016, I believe. Something like 26, 20$5 billion. Makes sense. Software company is trying to get in on the game, especially with meta Facebook buying up everything and Google already having their natural leg up in terms of search engine and so forth. But one feature that's. Stood out and, you know, this is absolutely driven by Microsoft and their AI models is, LinkedIn is offering to provide AI services for your posts. So like type your, type your, uh, thoughts into this and LinkedIn will produce an AI print ready solution for you to get yourself out there in the networking space. And, and all I can think about every time I see that is. Cringe. It's like this is not authentic. It's not something that is almost certainly gonna be tied back to the individual, and that's what these platforms are supposed to be. It's this collection of individuals connecting and conversating with each other.

Austin McNair:

I, I can give an example of for the balance between being authentic, but also like staying professional and kind of creating some values. So at the beginning of the year, um. My wife and I welcomed our third kid into the home. on the professional side, hinge was releasing our brand new research report. We were also launching a brand new podcast, there was like all this stuff. Ha. And it was the, the beginning of the year and you have like those New Year's resolution, like fuzzies kind of going. And so like, I made a post about that where I was just like, you know, carrying a lot of positive energy and kind of like. You know, all about new beginnings kind of into the space. And I can tell you that since that post, and I was a little, you know, kind of apprehensive about sharing that on LinkedIn, I've had like three or four people in my professional network, clients, prospects actually bring up like, hey, like I saw that, you know, you had, you know, you guys had a new baby and stuff like that. And it, it didn't feel weird or awkward. It was like. Great. I'm glad I could shed a little bit of light into kind of who I am as a person, but also celebrate some of the stuff that we have going on professionally as well. I think that was, that would be my example Any other final thoughts from you guys on this?

Joe Pope:

I, you guys want me to share one more? Best of LinkedIn.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

I do, yes.

Austin McNair:

Yeah, let's do one more. Why not? People want to see it.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

These are my

Joe Pope:

The give. Give the people what they want. All right. This one's from Jason. Uh, according to best of LinkedIn, this was two days ago. We're a third connection. Uh, here's what happened In the six months after I got locked out of the house by my ex. I moved in with my parents, lost 10 pounds, and I picked up my belongings a month later. Then two months after that, he started seeing a therapist and feels better with the direction things are going. Take a guess what Jason's title is underneath his name.

Austin McNair:

Does that have to do with B2B sales?

Joe Pope:

No, it's a men's divorce coach.

Austin McNair:

Ouch.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Oh man. Also, I love how your voice immediately changed as you started to read his post

Austin McNair:

uh, well we've got a great segment coming up here with our friend John Tyreman. If you are a professional that has thought about, ah, should our business start a new podcast, should we consider this for experts that work at our company, should we think about maybe advertising on podcasts? I think you're gonna get a lot of value out of our conversation coming up with John, so stay tuned. Hey Joe Mb, do you guys smell that

Joe Pope:

No, what is it?

Austin McNair:

it is not the smell of this not so great Brazilian coffee that I'm drinking? You know what it is? It is the smell of fresh research, baby. I'm talking about. The high growth study. Okay. If you've listened to some other episodes, you know, we've been talking about this in the middle of every episode, we reference this data in every episode. That's because every year we conduct this research on the professional services marketplace. And this year it was the 10th edition of the studies, a huge milestone. Um, I mean, over the years, Joe, what is it? 50,000? Different companies, that

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

A.

Austin McNair:

in climbing, uh, organizations that we've researched over the years. This year we had a great sample. If you want to know what the fastest growing professional services firms are doing with their marketing and with their business development, what do they gotta do mb What do they gotta go do? What do they gotta go download

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

But high growth study.

Austin McNair:

The high growth study, it's

Joe Pope:

No one does it dead or baby.

Austin McNair:

No one does it better. So go to hinge marketing.com/high growth and you'll get the executive summary of the research report. Totally for free. And if you want to dive a little bit deeper, there are industry specific reports, consulting, architecture, engineering and construction, technology and software. We got you. It's all there. We've got six different industry reports on sale if you want to cut a layer deeper, and those are available as well. So we hope you pick those up. We hope you download the executive summary no matter what. Let's get back to the episode. All right. I wanna welcome to the Spiraling Up Podcast, Mr. John Tyreman. John is a professional services marketer and podcast strategist. With over 10 years of experience helping firms win new business, he leverages his expertise in podcasting to help businesses build trust with buyers, showcase their expertise, and generate content. He currently hosts two podcasts, breaking Biz Dev and Podcasting in Professional Services, and I don't think it will be hard for people to put one and one together. John was definitely very helpful in helping us make this podcast a reality. So John, we're really excited to have you here on the podcast with us today to talk about all things. Um, podcasting and professional services firms. But first I want to ask you, we just had a segment, uh, where we were talking about, uh, how LinkedIn can sometimes be a space, uh, that can be a little bit cringey. Um, I know you spend a lot of time on LinkedIn. I'm sure you've seen some stuff over the years. We wanted to ask you before we dive into today's segment, what's the CRST thing you've seen on LinkedIn? Come on, man. Tell us the real deal. What have you, what have you, what have you seen?

John Tyreman:

Man, I've seen some really creative things on LinkedIn and, and, uh, you know, uh, hats off to, uh, Logan Lyles. I think he's one, he's a great creator on there, but I. There have been some really cringe things that I've seen a few years ago. Like there was a bunch of tech layoffs and there was this one crying, CEO, and he would, you know, did the selfie video of him crying because he had to let go, all of it, like half of his employees. And that was super cringe. He went viral and I'm sure that he probably, you know, found some opportunities from it just by here, happenstance and, but that was super cringe. Probably the most that I've come across.

Austin McNair:

Yeah.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

cr.

John Tyreman:

I'm sure that someone will probably like beat that at some point, but

Joe Pope:

He is gonna get tagged in some sort of video that we put out for this. Now he's gonna come find you, John. Now it's so funny you, you use that example and I immediately, it just comes straight to my mind. I remember watching that. I might even interacted with you about it too.'cause this, I mean, this was. And years ago, the during the Covid layoffs. But yeah, I can't, I can't get that fit. How could you sit there and even just turn the camera on to watch yourself do that? It's beyond me.

John Tyreman:

I mean, I understand being vulnerable, but that's just a little forced, you know?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Premeditated.

Austin McNair:

All right, team. Well, I've got a question for you. Do you guys have your lab coats ready? How about your safety goggles? Because it is time to play marketing Myth Busters. All right. Yeah. You know, you remember Myth Busters Beloved TV franchise. Uh, and similar to the show, uh, we're gonna dive into the world of marketing folklore to separate fact from fiction. John, as our guest, you, we are gonna present you with this challenge, right? We're gonna present you with some common myths or some widely held objections that people have in the space of podcasting, in the marketing world. And it's your challenge, man, uh, to use your expertise data, real world examples. Experience, whatever you've got in the bag of tricks to either confirm or debunk these claims. Do you think you've got what it takes to play marketing MythBusters with us?

John Tyreman:

The first image that comes to mind is that that bald guy with a mustache, right? And so I feel like I fit the part of

Austin McNair:

Yeah.

John Tyreman:

now. I'm ready. Let's go, man.

Austin McNair:

Awesome. Well, uh, mb I think you've got the prompts ready for today. We've got some great things to, to, to, to tee up for John here.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Yep. All right, well, let's dive into it then. I've got a couple good ones here for you. All right, let's start with this one, John. Some people say podcasts. They're just entertainment. They're great for storytelling or comedy, but they don't really work for serious B2B or professional services companies. What say you.

John Tyreman:

Okay. All right. So I'm gonna try to bust this myth. Well, first of all, I just want to call out that storytelling is a, a critical part of new business development, and I think there's a lot that we can learn from storytelling and apply to business. But that as an aside, um, business podcasts are the fourth most popular genre of podcasts. Um, and that they represent about 8.9% of all podcasts. So I think it's a after, like society and culture, arts and entertainment, I wanna say those are like the top three. And then business podcasts are like the next biggest one. And um, so I think that in of itself, just to show you that there, there is a lot of business podcasts out there. Um, but to your point, Mary Blanche is like, okay, well is there demand for it? Right. You know, are people actually listening to that? Um, so if we dig down a little bit further, there was, and we were just talking about LinkedIn actually, they, they put out a study of I think like 2,700 users and they found that 44% of department heads, VPs owners, and C-Suite individuals listen to podcasts. So I think that that, you know, if we look at it through the lens of, um, the most popular professional networking platform, I think that just goes to show that there is a market, there is demand for business podcasts.

Joe Pope:

Part of that myth I think is just generated by how people utilize and what their experience is with the platform. Uh, one of the things that has stood out to me, I. And I think, uh, Austin, you already teed it up. John was a big piece of how we came to put this podcast together. I think it was originally generated over, uh, Tex-Mex and Beers, right? Like all good ideas. Uh, but I was one of these folks right, where I, I remember John specifically. I was. Questioning, gosh, I just can't get into business podcasts. I, I, you know, I consume blogs, I go to webinars, I do all those types of things, and I struggle to make those connections, uh, for the reasons of entertainment, authenticity, and those types of elements. The storytelling piece that you just referenced, that's what stands out to me, right? Because there's a difference between having a story to tell and just standing in front of a microphone, or sitting, I guess, in front of a microphone.

John Tyreman:

A hundred percent. Yeah. Um, and, and I think that's where, you know, you can draw from your experience and you can tell stories of your, uh, and, and I think that shows if, if we're talking about professional services, you know, you're in the business of expertise. So the extent to which you can reference stories, um, that show that you have helped a certain clientele in the past and that you, you, you know what to look for and you can guide them around corners, you know, that that goes a long way, especially in a, in a medium, like a podcast where it's a little bit more informal and it's a little bit more conversational.

Joe Pope:

Mm-hmm.

John Tyreman:

I think it, it just, it's, it's like kinda like hanging out with at, at happy hour with folks that are in your industry. Right? That's how I look at it.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Yeah, I feel that way too. So I'm kind of, was on the opposite side of the coin from Joe initially when we started talking about this, because for me, podcasts have, you know, for a while now have just been such an integrated part of my, my week over week. You know, I do have my favorite business podcast I listen to, whether that's, you know, I only have 10 minutes, I'm gonna pick up the kids from dance or if I'm on a trip and I get to listen to, you know, maybe like binge three episodes in a row. But, um, just find so much value in them. Um.

John Tyreman:

What's your favorite show?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

it's called the All In podcast.

John Tyreman:

The All In podcast,

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Yeah, it's a bunch of PE guys and they just talk about what's going on in, in tech, it, what they're up to, and they're um, they call themselves the besties, um, so that you can tell they're all really good friends. And so like, you

Austin McNair:

Ah.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

you'll get 10, 15 minutes in and you're just kind of laughing along with just like their banter in general. So kind of speaking to a little bit of what you were saying too, John, I just. You know, you just kind of feel like you're, you're almost right there with them and happy hour, just kinda, you know, listening in. So.

Austin McNair:

feel like I've listened to that one too. That's the billionaire besties. Right? They're all like the Silicon Valley billionaires. Yeah, I, I that Um, John, I'm, you know, I think a lot of the myths that we'll talk about today, um, they come from a place of hesitation, right? What would you say to the, part of like the role of how podcasts don't just have to stay on podcast platforms, but that, episodes can be content that contributes to other parts of your, marketing funnel marketing channels that you're, you're doing, I know that when we were working with you, that was kind of a theme that you kept talking about. I think it's really important that people get to that. I don't think we have any kind of questions that they're gonna touch on that topic. So I'm, I'm just kind of curious like I. W how do you normally frame that up for people and like, handling the objection.

John Tyreman:

I subscribe to the Challenger Sale mentality of know you like you, trust you. Especially in professional services where buyers first they need to know you, then they need to like you, then they need to trust you in order to, um, do business with you. And so the way that I look at it is to get to know someone first, you need to become familiar with them, right? So familiarity is kind of a stepping stone to trust. And so if you're talking about what, what I call content distribution, that's what I like. That's the term that I use to talk about what you're talking about. Austin, I think I. And, um, on my podcast, podcasting and professional services, I interviewed, uh, Ross Simmons. And, um, he has this mantra, create Once, distribute Forever. It's the name of one of his books that he just wrote, and it's this concept of, you know, you, you record a podcast or you create a long form article or a PDF or something and that's your core content that you can then. Repurpose, you know, copy and paste a paragraph from the text and that becomes a LinkedIn post, right? Or in a podcast sense, you know, create a long form, 45, 50 minute conversation, and then chop that up into 10 different clips that you're pushing out on social media. And so then that signals, you know, folks that are on LinkedIn, for example, since we were just talking about that, they're scrolling through their feed and then they see your face on a screen. They hear your voice and they're like, oh, okay. You know, that's Austin, that's Joe, that's mb. And then a couple weeks later, they see it again and again and again. And then in a couple weeks they listen to one of those video shorts. And then that captures their attention so much that they click through and listen to a full length podcast episode and then they subscribe to it. And so that's kind of the bridge between the familiarity to knowing you to liking you. And then when you have people that subscribe to your show, you can build trust with them over time, through your conversations, through the value that you provide to them, via guests, via the topics you talk about. Um, so that's how I think content distribution overlays into that trust equation.

Joe Pope:

Mm-hmm.

Austin McNair:

What's up next? MB.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

All right. Let's see. Next up. Some people say that you need a huge audience to start a successful podcast.

John Tyreman:

Hmm. That's the, that's the people are saying. That's the myth. We're gonna bust it up. Alright. So, um, I will say that podcasts are a phenomenal way to engage your existing audience. So if you have an existing audience of email subscribers, um, then a podcast is a natural transition to engage more deeply with them. That being said. You can use a podcast to accelerate your networking growth. So what I mean by that is, is like, do you wanna be a guest of my podcast? That is a much stronger offer than, Hey, you wanna hop on an intro call, you wanna hop on a Zoom call? So you're providing value to the other person as opposed to asking for value, asking for their time. You're saying, Hey, I'm, I'm asking for your time, but I'm gonna give you. You know, a video of you talking about you. Right? So that's like, first of all, like, I think that because of that, your connection rates are much higher with people that you reach out to. Um, those connections are much deeper because you're having deeper conversations, right? And you're promoting them. You're putting value into that, that relationship. And so like if you're playing on the cognitive bias of reciprocity, right? With that upfront deposit into that relationship. So it, it's a way to accelerate your networking growth. I'll give you an example. So, um, I'm working with a fractional chief operating officer, and he, it is a, um, EOS integrator and he wants to, a referral source for him are EOS implementers. So what we're gonna do is we're gonna go out and we're going to network with these E Ossis we're calling them and they, that is a referral source, that's the target guest for the show. So we want to put deposit value into those referral sources so that they think of this fractional COO and wanna refer'em.

Joe Pope:

I was just gonna say an EOS for those who are running to Google real quick is the entrepreneurial operating system. In a fairly honestly, fast growing way of how, especially small businesses, uh, are, uh, uh, bringing into practice a process that allows them to grow quickly. So I can see great synergies here, especially if that's your target audience and that's who you're trying to speak to in, uh, in being able to kind of talk around that experience, that expertise.

John Tyreman:

Yeah, it's a, and so it's a faster way to network with a key referral source, deposit relationships into them. And then the strategy is, is that he will be the first fractional COO that they think of.

Joe Pope:

What did Mr. Eeo s's, uh, net we'll say visibility look like before the podcast? What, what was he rocking in terms of email subscribers, so on and so forth?

John Tyreman:

It's a small email list, you know, a few hundred on the, on an email list. He's a, he's a fractional, um, chief operating officer, and he wants to build a firm. So he's, he's working with other fractional COOs. And then when he finds a good fit, you know, he refers business to them, but it's sort of a consortium. Of these different fractional executives. So it's an interesting model and it's, it's cool how you know these different solo business owners are kind of working together in that capacity.

Joe Pope:

What, what's growth looked like since you've launched the podcast?

John Tyreman:

We launched it last week,

Joe Pope:

Oh, okay. Sure. All right. Well, we'll have to, we'll have to do like an overlay of this video that says Results are in, or something like that. We can get a Morey overview.

John Tyreman:

there you go.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

All right, let's go to number three. So only charismatic personalities can be successful Podcast hosts.

John Tyreman:

Oh, I love this one because that is a myth, and I hear that all the time, and, um, I, I would, I would say that it's not entirely true Now, energetic, outgoing, well-spoken, charismatic people, I. Yes, like you could do a monologue, you could be on a co-hosted commentary, you could do an interview series if you can learn to shut up. But, um, like there are other podcast structures for different personality types. So like, are you provocative and snarky? Are you really like, really funny? Do you like, you know, have like good one-liners, zingers. You know, be a co-host with another expert or someone else who's a little bit more straight-laced. Right? And so to provide that kind of like fire and ice or like banter, um, maybe you're really introverted and really curious and inquisitive. Run an interview series and ask damn good questions. Right. So like there's a podcast structure for almost any personality type.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

This is about tailoring. Tailoring to your strengths,

John Tyreman:

Exactly. Yes.

Joe Pope:

Do you have an exercise? You typically go through John to help identify what that is, those strengths?

John Tyreman:

My typical sales process when I'm working with, um, experts or marketers who want to launch a podcast either for themselves or for someone within their organization. Uh, there is really a vibe check that goes on. And it's, it's, it's not really like a personality test per se, it's more of a feel thing. But you know, you get to know somebody and you get to understand their personality a little bit and you can kind of connect the dots and see, okay, this person would do really well in these scenarios, under these conditions, under this framework with this supporting cast. And then the vision kind of comes together.'cause there's a lot of different ingredients that go into. Launching a podcast as, as you all know, just from going through this experience,

Austin McNair:

john, uh, when we were, when we were writing the, the Visible expert book, we, we did like a kind of a similar thing, uh, adjacent to what you're saying about the different types of personality types being kind of different types of, uh, podcast hosts. We did something similar there with, with kind of talking about visible experts and how visible experts there could be different kinds of visible experts. Uh, I think the examples we use in the book. Uh, we talk about the bridge builder. So that's somebody who's kind of build, building a bridge between two different, uh, topics. Um, the laser. So that's usually like a specialist, someone who's like, highly, like, targeted on one little area. Uh, the curator, which is like maybe that role of like bringing other experts into the fold and like interviewing them. Um, like I like that example that you used. Um, then you have your first movers and your contrarians, which I think maybe. Of the different visible experts we talk about tend to be the ones with the most boisterous personalities, um, that could, you know, make for good pod, you know, podcast hosts or running a good podcast. Um, I just like the comparison there that, you know, you've kind of figured out how important that is in terms of designing a podcast for a different company like that. Fitting it to the personality really. Matters and makes a difference to kind of the output and the quality of it. Um, when we're talking to people about being a visible expert, it's the same thing. Like, what are your skill sets? What kind of, you know, what kind of way do you want to go to the marketplace and talk about your expertise. So I love the parallels there that, you know, what we saw with the visible expert kind of aligns with the podcasting angle as well.

John Tyreman:

Well, and then to add on to that, Austin, I think in the first visible expert book it was, there was like those three core skills, right? Like writing, speaking, and networking. And then you kind of like layer on from that. It's like, okay, well if you're good, really good at speaking, I. What kind of a speaker then look at it through the lens of that personality. Are you more of a bridge builder, a laser, a curator? First mover, contrarian, or the, like, the networking angle too. Like I could see these bridge builders being, like really good interview hosts and like, making connections with different guests, whereas like the curators could curate industry news and then kinda like broadcast it or present it or add their own twist to it. So there's, there's a lot of different ways that. Experts can tap into their expertise and their personality at the same time. And that's like the combination, uh, that's what's so beautiful about a podcast.

Austin McNair:

I love that.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Love that too. All right. Now I'm gonna go on to the next one. This is a, because this is a good one. Um, all right. Creating ROI from a podcast is nearly impossible and it's too much work. I.

John Tyreman:

Well, uh, you can get ROI from a podcast and there are a number of different ways you can realize that return on investment. So I'll give you one quick example before we dive into some more of the tangible things. Okay. One of my clients is in his late fifties. He's actually turning 60 this month, and he does not want to travel anymore to speaking engagements. He, he's just tired of flying all around the country, going to these speaking gigs, and he's try, has to pry speaking fees from these associations. And he's, he's done with it. He's fed up with it. So we launched a podcast, um, about six months ago and, um, he recently. Went to the biggest conference in the country now the, it's the Ground Transportation podcast. And they, we recently did this like challenge like, Hey, get a, get a selfie with us on the showroom floor and enter for a chance to win a plug for your business on the podcast. They were inundated with people trying to get selfies with them. So much so that Ken, my client, he had to fake that he was on the phone and like walk off the floor. And so I, it, long story short, like that was just kinda one signal that the podcast is helping him achieve that goal of delivering his message in a way that he doesn't have to do it at those speaking events and speaking engagements. So if you're, you know, cutting. Air airfare, right, is a form of, you know, cost cutting. You know, you could look at that as return on investment or the time it takes to travel and, and do that. Um, I thought that was a really funny story. But, uh, if we get back to some of the more, like, typical like ROI, like direct attribution, lead generation is the first place that I would point to, right? So referrals from guests that you have on. The guests themselves on your podcast. Um, after a few years, your listeners could become guests or could become opportunities, right? Hey, I've been listening to you for years and the opportunity to work with you just hasn't come up. But finally, like I'm in this space now where it makes sense to work together. Let's talk.

Joe Pope:

And that mirrors a lot of how we see some of these other visibility tactics that make up marketing strategies pay dividends too. Right. Especially that last one you referenced. It's in, you were talking about the idea of trust building, right? And the idea that these are folks that are getting to experience you in a setting that doesn't feel overly salesy, that doesn't feel like they're gonna have to. Hit ignore on a phone call that they're not quite wanting to do because it doesn't really make sense for them yet, and yet they just keep seeing it show up on their caller id. Uh, so I, I, I feel that in, in, in entirely. I think it also plays really well with what we're seeing in the shifts. In Google's algorithm and how people are using other tools or tactics to make decisions. So I, I, I think I've found a way to reference SEO is dead in some form or fashion on every podcast we've done thus far. Uh, which of course is overblown, but. The idea of SEO being a, just the primary focus of groups, and that's gonna just bring you the leads. They're gonna keep rolling in. Not so much. People are leaning on generative ai. They're leaning on other tactics. They're trusting networking venues, whether it's. Digital or in a traditional sense, the floor taking selfies with your guy. Uh, so yeah, I, I can just see that this is what part of that diversification strategy would be. You just have to understand it's part of a long game. Uh, if there's not a direct, we're getting the guest, for example, to be your business opportunity or the networking that you can potentially get from guests bringing and referring other folks in.

John Tyreman:

So I want to, I want to touch on that because yes, it is a long-term investment. However, there are ways to, uh, kind of offset some of your production costs. So sponsorships are one avenue to do that, and especially with business podcasts and in even somewhat, even more so in professional services where the audiences are so niche and narrow. Sponsorships. You know, value is in the eye of the beholder. So if you are a professional services firm, let's say you're an accounting firm and you launch a podcast and you want to find ways to offset the production costs, to extend the runway of your show so that you do have that calendar time to be able to prove return on investment in the form of leads. Then you get a sponsor to offset that cost and that extends your runway. So maybe you partner with a technology, or maybe it's like a SaaS platform or like, you know, like a block or like a blockchain ledger. Maybe you're in a, a progressive accounting firm that wants to go on the blockchain. I don't know. But um, that's kind of the point is it can extend your runway.

Joe Pope:

So what you're saying is you can sponsor more than golf tournaments.

John Tyreman:

Yes. And you should.

Austin McNair:

I, I was actually having a conversation with a client recently, um, and when the topic of podcasting came up, I thought they were going in the direction of talking about how I. They were thinking about starting a podcast for their, for their technology company, but what she was actually saying was, no, she had their, their company had actually aggressively gone out. And started buying advertising space on a lot of other different podcasts out there in the space. Um, and she said the results that they were getting from that, like far outpaced the spend that they were getting or that they were putting into like LinkedIn advertising and Google PA pay per click. Um, I thought that was very interesting. I'm sure there's a lot of, uh, professional services firms out there that, you know, would benefit from exploring that space a little bit. There's probably some, some untapped ground there.

John Tyreman:

Well, do you know why that is? Is because you've got highly engaged. Listeners that are in tune with a highly niche topic, and that's the ingredient right there. You, you, you know, just to drive this point home, um, on. Both on both of my shows and then on many of the shows across my portfolio. The consumption rate on YouTube, the YouTube variation of the show is much lower than the consumption rate. On the audio side, it's like 30% YouTube, 80% on the audio side. So people are listening much deeper into the episode via audio. So if you're advertising on, you know, long form audio podcasts, then yeah, I could totally see how that's. Proving to be like much higher. ROI.

Austin McNair:

That's awesome. All right. I think we've got one more. Is that right? MB.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Okay, we got one more. So last one. Podcasting is a fad that will soon fade away.

John Tyreman:

All right, buckle up. We're getting in into our time machines here. Okay. We're gonna go back to 1895.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

We're going, we're going way back

John Tyreman:

going way back. That's when the, that's when the radio was invented. Okay. Now we all know that, like, I think it was actually, it was when I was, uh, hosting the Visible Expert podcast. Kelly and I were interviewing Scott McCain and he is part of the National Speakers Association and he likened podcasts to on Demand Niche Radio. I thought that was such an accurate description of what podcasting is. And so if we kind of like think about radio has trained humans to like be familiar with that format. Right. So it's, you know, generations of humans and digital radio actually, so recorded radio and then transferred from computer to computer actually predates the internet. Um, and it was first called a podcast. In the early two thousands, I think 2001, 2002, that's right around when the RSS, um, feeds became available. And then Apple actually introduced the podcast app on their phone, I think in like oh five or oh six. So they've been very forward thinking in terms of like this as a content vehicle, according to Edison research, so that every year they do this study called the infinite Dial. And they found that in two, in 2025, more than half of Americans, 12 or older will have listened to podcast audio in the last month. And so like we as a, as a nation in the United States are getting used to listening to podcast audio. I mean, just look at the impact on the last presidential election, right? I

Joe Pope:

Yeah.

John Tyreman:

the both candidates were on all sorts of podcasts. And then I think like Musk is on Joe Rogan. Trump's on Joe Rogan. Vance is on Joe Rogan. Like that seems to be

Joe Pope:

It became a whole talking point, right? There was this whole drama, like, um, Harris didn't want to join or Joe didn't wanna have her or was moving around, and that became a bigger talking point than the actual issues. So I, I think the podcast piece there is, is so interesting,

John Tyreman:

well, the, the fact that they, they both, they both targeted podcasts as their media channel of preference, I think spoke volumes about how they see, like the American media and how they consume content. I.

Austin McNair:

And even though one of them, uh, even though both of them did go on different podcasts, one of them did a lot more than the other and he was the one that won the election.

John Tyreman:

Yep.

Joe Pope:

So call her. Daddy didn't call her daddy didn't get it done.

Austin McNair:

No, I don't think calling daddy was enough.

Joe Pope:

bummer.

Austin McNair:

All right. Well, uh, John, this has been great. I mean, I, I would say of the myths that we've proposed, you've, you've fully busted them, but there may be some marketing teams out there that are still, uh, wondering like, okay, how do I actually. Take steps and make this a reality. Like it, the idea of starting a podcast is such a big endeavor that it feels very mythical, right? Like, how am I gonna find the right people to do it, organize the right things, and honestly, the long-term commitment of it as well. I mean, I'll, I'll be transparent. When we started, I. Planning for this podcast. I mean, the thing that I continually went back to in conversations with you and with Joe and B and the whole team was we've gotta be looking at this for like, you know, a foresee, an investment for the foreseeable future. I'm curious, you know, kind of, you know, to those out there who may still be doubters, but maybe not even doubters, maybe they're bought in but they just don't know what to do with this, you know, do next in terms of, uh, make. Making the next step, like what would you encourage them to do? Like how can professional services firms take the first step to assess if podcasting is the right fit for them, and then actually start making it happen?

John Tyreman:

Well first I think you've gotta have somebody who's willing and able, right? So someone needs to volunteer to get behind the mic. That's like the first. First step, if someone's willing to do that and walk that path, then I would say the next step would be to record a pilot episode and much like we did when we were producing or you know, launching Spiraling Up this show. Um, I do offer a pilot episode package to, to my audience, and it's not a free engagement because there is a lot of work that goes into producing a pilot episode. Um, but that's, you know, I, I do offer that so that firms can get a taste of what it's like. They can go through the motions, they can feel it before they invest in a long-term investment because you don't wanna. Uh, commit to a six month, a 12 month investment before you truly understand what it's like to go through those motions. So that's what I would recommend is coming up with a pilot test to make it real before you go all in.

Joe Pope:

The most. Sorry, Austin, just one thing to really hearing you say that, John, it just makes such perfect sense. The most impactful business development and marketing technique we saw in our high growth study recently was live product and service demonstrations. So while there's a bleeding line there between whether it's something you do as a part of your business development or if it's kind of, the appetizer. that is so logical, right? You just want to have an opportunity to experience this to see if it's for you without necessarily having to go all in.

Austin McNair:

All right, John. Uh, where can people learn more about what you do and how can they get in touch with you? Uh, what's, what's the, what's the best way for, for people to learn more about your services and, and what you're up to?

John Tyreman:

Yeah, connect with me on LinkedIn. Um, check out red cedar marketing.com. Uh, subscribe to Breaking Biz Dev wherever you get your podcasts. spiraling up is a lot about marketing for professional services. Breaking Biz dev is more on the business development side of things. So if you enjoy this show, chances are you'll probably enjoy that show as well.

Austin McNair:

Awesome. Well, uh, thanks for, for your contributions here, breaking some of these myths, letting us know, you know, kind of what the world of professional services, marketing and, and specifically podcasting is, is looking like. Good luck with everything that you're doing and I. Uh, to all of our listeners, if you made it this far in the episode, we just wanna thank you for listening. Make sure you hit the subscribe button, make sure you like the post, make sure you download the episode. Leave us a rating. If you leave us a rating, we'll read it on the next episode. Uh, we're building a community here. Uh, we're having some fun. We appreciate you guys listening to this episode of Spiraling Up, and we will see you on the next one. Take care everybody.