Spiraling Up — Marketing For Professional Services

Fractional EVERYTHING + Business Operations ‘Blind Rankings’ Game with Jen Hamilton

• Hinge • Season 1 • Episode 9

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In this episode of Spiraling Up, the Hinge team dives into the growing trend of fractional executives in professional services. Austin, Mary-Blanche, and Joe are joined by Jen Hamilton, a fractional COO and mentor to COOs, to play a game of “Blind Rankings” in a fun exploration of on-demand work in various aspects of business operations. 

Austin McNair:

In today's episode of Spiraling Up, our team discusses the rise of fractional executives and professional services, and then we're gonna speak with fractional COO all star Jen Hamilton about all things happening in operations. This is a really insightful episode. Welcome everyone. This is spiraling up with Hinge Marketing. All right. Welcome back to another episode of Spiraling Up. My name is Austin and I am joined by my co-host, Mary Blanche Kramer and Joe Pope. Mary Blanche. Joe, how are you guys doing today?

Mary Blanche:

Doing good.

Joe Pope:

Yeah, man. Doing good. Excited to get going and have some conversations about, well, the fractional world that we're living in.

Austin McNair:

That's, that's right. Uh, I want to give a quick shout out to our listeners. We've had a lot of great feedback on the podcast recently. If you're listening again to this episode, please. Leave a like, subscribe, comment, send us some feedback. guys, I, I'm very excited because, uh, we're gonna be very focused in this episode. It's not often that, you know, in every episode we kind of dive into one topic, but today we really are, we're kind of. Focusing more on this, uh, you know, area of fractional executives on demand work. How has it crept into your life recently? How, how has it been more, you know, why did we bring this to the table?

Joe Pope:

You're all things ai. I saw your post you put up yesterday, Austin. Right. You were talking about, I. I think we can probably get into it in a, in another pivotal story, but I embraced AI in a fractional manner that I felt, uh, was relevant to folks. Did you know that you can basically use your phone now as like A FaceTime with like a Gemini or chat gt and talk to it as you try to do a various, you know, thing? For me it was cooking of which I'm not good at, and I had an AI companion be my fractional sous chef. Sous chef. Is that how you say that?

Mary Blanche:

Sous chef. Yeah, so it told you kind of what to do. You like, here's the next step in your meal, or,

Joe Pope:

E Exactly. It was a running dialogue for like 35, 40 minutes of us just talking back and forth. Uh, you know, I, I was trying to use cast iron because, you know, fancy and, well, you know, you can screw that up real quick. Um, so, you know, I was asking how to season, how to prep. Uh, I was cooking some like onions and pepper and mushroom medley to put on top of a steak because of course steak. Um, so yeah, no, I thought that this was just so interesting. It's that type of insight. To be at my fingertips and to basically allow me to make something that was edible was, uh, that, that's my fractional story of the week.

Mary Blanche:

I like that. I'm gonna have to try that. So, I mean, could you down to saying, how should I season said steak and it would say X, Y, Z. 1, 2, 3.

Joe Pope:

Yeah. I mean, the transcript of this would've been super insightful. I mean, it, it was, it was like the most polite response to my stupid rambling about various things. It'd be like, of course, Joe, that sounds like a great idea. You should definitely consider this though. And I'm like, oh, okay.

Mary Blanche:

Also pumps you up while you're, while

Joe Pope:

Yeah. Right. I mean, it was like a motivational sous

Mary Blanche:

Yep. That's awesome. Well, I mean, I, when I think of fractional things that, that I use, I mean, Instacart is what comes to mind. I mean, I do not, I would not make it a week without Instacart. I instacart everything and it, um, saves me so much time because I do not like going aisle by aisle through. The

Austin McNair:

Is Instacart. I actually am not joking. I have no idea what Instacart is.

Mary Blanche:

store stop. You don't know what Instacart is.

Austin McNair:

I don't,

Joe Pope:

Right

Mary Blanche:

What?

Austin McNair:

whatever Instacart is, they don't have it where I live,

Mary Blanche:

They don't have it.

Austin McNair:

so I dunno what it's,

Mary Blanche:

that's fair. It's basically an app where you can pick a grocery store close to you. You pick out everything that you want, um, from that grocery store, and then someone goes and shops for you, picks it up and brings it to your house. It is, hmm.

Austin McNair:

for Uber, for groceries.

Joe Pope:

It. It's exactly right. Except, except for if you have a Chase Visa card, they give you a credit every month. So it's, I went, I went the Instacart route. But yeah, I guess Instacart, Southern Brazil, they have not yet expanded their territory down there.

Austin McNair:

It has not made it here yet. No.

Joe Pope:

No. No. So what's your, anything fractional from your perspective then? Uh, Austin.

Austin McNair:

Joe, I, I relate to what you were saying, like, you know, in terms of how you're interacting with Gemini and ai. Um, I mean, I, I think just in general, and you guys know that I'm like. Like bursting at the seams to like talk more about some of the, the AI stuff, future pivotal story, uh, for, for next week. Um, but yeah, I mean, I, I, I think, you know, while it won't be like meant necessarily a fractional executive or the value you get from a, a human being kind of being brought into the loop with all their experience, I think that, you know, the way that people are using these large language models is very similar to kind of like, you know. Fractional support fractional work,

Joe Pope:

on demand.

Austin McNair:

Even, even preparing for this podcast, you know, we, we now heavily use tools like Gemini and, and chat GPT to, um, kind of speed up the process, right? For, for ideation and for brainstorming and for, you know, summarizing intros and stuff like that. So things that you, you know. Just a couple years ago like that, those tools, you know, it didn't exist and now we have them. Um, so yeah, uh, there's the technology aspect to it, but then there's also the humans in the loop. And I, and I think that's what I'm most excited to talk about. And actually I think that that lends itself well to a transition here to our Pivotal story this week. And b, do you wanna go ahead and introduce this week's pivotal story?

Mary Blanche:

Yeah. All right, let's do it. So welcome back to another Pivotal story. Uh, today is all about the rise of fractional executives gaining traction in the business world. And we recently saw an article on Reworked that really took a deep dive here and it got us wondering how our clients. Even our own agency could be tapping into this model Now, for a long time, the standard C-suite model has been pretty set in stone. So why now? You know, why are more companies starting to bring in these fractional executives? Well, the article laid out some pretty compelling reasons, and it's everything from needing to cut costs in uncertain times. To filling specific gaps during periods of rapid growth or change. Uh, so Joe, I wanna kick it to you first today. Tell us, have you seen companies you work with embracing this fractional executive model? And what do you think are the biggest benefits or challenges of bringing on leadership in this way?

Joe Pope:

I mean, you absolutely are seeing it, and we're gonna have, uh, one of them come on, uh, in terms of an, A specialist in this, Jen, a little later in this episode. But I think the biggest thing that stands out to me in this world now where you have access to expertise in a. You know, part-time manner is the effectiveness for organizations that wouldn't have had that access previously. I mean, especially your small to mid-size groups, uh, you know, you had to rely on hopefully making a really good hire or you had to rely on having a budget to afford a McKenzie or somebody like that, right? Who brings in a consulting type service. But, you know, there is an alternative now, uh, much like I. Have, uh, an alternative sous chef. I used to have to pull open a, a big book, and that relies on my ability to read and keep my eyes on one thing while try not to burn something else. And I mean, you could think about it from the perspective of, uh, these, we'll say smaller businesses now who are going through a period of growth or maybe bringing on a rebranding type initiative, uh, and they're not quite ready to make that jump to the higher price. Consultancy type group and this, this provides a really interesting alternative across all major areas of the C-suite from the executive to operations, marketing and growth, business development, things along those lines as well.

Mary Blanche:

Yeah, solid points. Awesome. What's your take?

Austin McNair:

Well for me, you guys know, I like to turn to the hinge, hinge research to see like is there anything that we can glean from, um, our research and how it applies to the trends that we talk about? And actually there is in this case. So one thing that we've seen, this is something we've seen for. Probably five or six years running in the study since we've studied, kind of incorporated into our high growth study, is that faster growing companies are more likely to outsource. Then slower growing companies, and I think we can break that down. So, you know, I think from the perspective of our high growth study, we're thinking a lot about marketing. So a lot of the stuff on the list includes like video graphic design, website management, SEO. But there are some things on the list like strategy. Which, you know, if you think about outsourcing strategy, what would that look like? Well, it would look like bringing in some kind of executive to help, you know, some executive level thinking to help kind of set the table, you know, either during like a season of transition or a season of growth. Like those things you mentioned mb. Even there, we're seeing that high growth firms are leveraging those outside resources for things like strategy, more of those executive level things. So I mean, my, my takeaway is that, you know, I think this seems like something that is totally on the table, and especially in lines of what we, what we see from our, our high growth data.

Joe Pope:

It is interesting. I mean, we've talked about some of these big benefits. I I, there are a few things that come to mind though. Anytime you think about bringing somebody kind of from the cold, if you will, they may have all this experience. They've worked with a variety of different industries, maybe or um, sizes of organizations, and that's all. Great, because that person can bring that insight to, to your team. But the another thing that comes to mind on the, on the negative side though, is this whole cultural integration, right? The idea of you're bringing this expert in and they're expected to kinda hit the wrong running and be ready to roll. But, you know, organizations have their own behaviors and these groups could run into some challenges, especially if the executive who you're bringing in to shake things up, proceeds to shake things up. Uh, so I, I do think that there are some. Important elements here in terms of like how you vet out who your resource is, making sure it's not going to be something that is, uh, gonna bring your functions to a screeching halt, but not able to restart as a part of this new, uh, this new era, if you will.

Austin McNair:

Well, I, I can think of no better way of continuing this conversation than to talk with our guest, Jen Hamilton. She's a fractional COO. She is, um, like I mentioned before, uh, just a wealth of insight and I'm really excited to kind of dig in and kind of put her to the test a little bit to hear. What kind of things as a co fractional COO does she kind of rank in terms of importance? So why don't we turn to that segment now for our next segment in spiraling up? Well, we know that operations leaders are often the unsung heroes of the business world. If they're successful, most people won't notice, and if they mess up. Everybody knows it, so it takes a special kind of person to love that kind of role and to make it work. This is why today we're so excited to be joined by our guest, Jen Hamilton. Jen is a fractional COO and a mentor to other COOs out there in the professional services space. Jen, welcome to Spiraling Up.

Jen Hamilton:

Thank you so much. I'm really excited to be here. It's gonna be fun.

Austin McNair:

Jen, I was, um, looking at your LinkedIn profile and it was really striking to me that, uh, when I went to your bio section, um, you actually led off with a story. You, it was just kind of like a family story. Would you mind sharing like this passion that you have for helping businesses kind of grow and thrive?

Jen Hamilton:

Yeah, it's interesting because I'm sure I'm not the only one who. Doesn't always understand your origin story of what pulls you and calls you to your work. And I started to put the pieces together and I realized why I've, why have I always wanted to work with small businesses to do good in the world. You know, like those who are like out there to really help someone. And it started back when I was a teenager and even some somewhat before that. So my. Grandparents own a small hardware store in town where I grew up and my entire family worked there, including myself, my sis sister, and my cousins. When we were super young, it was my first job when I was nine. I was counting like washers and screws and things for inventory and I thought it was the best thing ever.'cause I got paid$2 an hour and, and like hot chocolate. I'm like, this is great. And it made me. Probably started an addiction to work. I just love working. Um, but it was fast forward in when I was about, I think 13 or 14 when Home Depot came into town and it seemed like overnight this hardware store was gone. And, and it wasn't just the stores gone, like my entire family was outta work and just what does that look like? What are we doing? That kind of thing. And um, the thing that really struck me though is like. Having a kid version of looking at business saying, why did the good people lose? You know, why is it they are so well loved by their customers? They, they've put their heart and soul into it, and why didn't they make it? And it was because they didn't have the business acumen. So it put me on the trajectory to, to be able to say, okay, how can I go save others? And it was interesting because, um, the side note to that story is this company still exists, but it morphed, it morphed from a hardware store into real estate investment because they had two superheroes come in, an accountant and a lawyer to save the day. To basically tell them you have an asset. You are on some incredible land. Let's make this a family legacy. And it's a business that I will be inheriting. It still exists. Um, and my mom and her brother still say, we have no idea how to do business. We know hardware. But, um, they are smart enough to surround themselves with folks in the professional service world who do know what they're doing. And it's part of why this has always been my story, uh, to. I've always envisioned myself, it seems so silly, but now I have it on my website where I feel like I'm in a suit and wearing a cape basically that's superhero to save the day and, and it's how I see. I'm probably one of the only people who see accountants and lawyers as superheroes, but I do.

Joe Pope:

We have plenty of accountant and lawyer clients who love the idea of being considered superheroes. So I, I, I think that nobody would mind that. And Jen, your story really resonated with me. My, I. Uh, my best friend growing ups, family owned a hardware store. So when we saw that on, uh, on your website, it really, uh, I was the, I was one of the guys. I didn't get paid. I mostly just sat there and hung out in the basement. But I also, uh, moved washers around and, you know, listened to the old guys talk and so forth. But it's a great story, Jen. Uh, really appreciate you sharing it with everyone here.

Jen Hamilton:

Thank you.

Austin McNair:

So you know, you've, you've gathered all this experience now in your long career in professional services and particularly in this space of operations. Right? And so we're really excited to. Play a game with you. today.'cause operations, I mean, this spans so many categories and it was really hard for our team to choose just like one area to dive into today. So we narrowed it down to three. So we're gonna talk today about client experience, company culture, and business intelligence. So, Jen, the game that we would like to play is blind rankings and here's how it will work. We're gonna play three rounds each focused on one of those critical areas that I mentioned that I think COOs at any professional services firms, they're gonna have their hands in in, in some degree. And what we'd like to do for each round is present you with a series of seven items, one by one, and have you rank them in terms of importance. The catch is. Of course, you're not gonna know what's coming next. So, that's the challenge. You'll get to rank them as we go, describing your reasoning, but at the end we'll take a look at the list and I don't know, maybe you'll be like, oh, I got it all. I, I, I want to train, I want to change it all. And that's all, that's, that's the whole fun bit. So any, any questions for us as we go into the game?

Jen Hamilton:

No, I am, uh, I'm gonna coin a, phrase that my friend said recently. I'm scare sighted, scared and excited.

Mary Blanche:

I love that.

Austin McNair:

Cool. Well, Uh, let's dive in Okay. So Jen, round one, our first category is client experience. Jen, before we dive into the options get your rankings, tell us about client experience when you're working as a fractional COO or working with some of the people you mentor, client experience, like going into this category, what are already some of the things you're thinking about?

Jen Hamilton:

of the things I think about with client experience is that most firms are wrapped around this. and from an operational point of view, you should be, these are the people that pay your bills. But the other thing too is, how can we make sure that they have. Not just an experience, I like to say that they have a wow experience, a way to just be so impressed that they refer people. So this is, to me, like the whole business wraps around how great the client experience is because it will keep you in business, not just because they pay your bills, but help you continue to build a reputation. So I, part of why I think. Going back to the whole hardware thing, I learned this by witnessing how incredibly gifted my family was and put their heart and soul into their clients. And to see that, that, well, that wasn't the reason they went away, but um, but it was the reason they stuck around for as long as they did do before, uh, a large company came in and out, uh, expense to them essentially. So,

Austin McNair:

Right, right, right. Well, let's get into it.'cause we've got seven items here. I think it's gonna be tough to, to prioritize'em, but you're the expert. So let's start out with first one. proactive project management and communication.

Jen Hamilton:

I, so this whole game is gonna be like picking my favorite kid. They're all gonna be hard. Um, proactive. I love proactive. Let's go with Three.

Austin McNair:

Three. Proactive project management and communication.

Jen Hamilton:

Okay. Oh, I'm already afraid. What's the next one?

Austin McNair:

All right, number two here, regularly scheduled client feedback surveys, so maybe like MPS or C stat.

Jen Hamilton:

yeah, exactly. Oh, I love the feedback. Okay. I'm gonna, I wanna leave space for some other things. So let's go with fifth.

Joe Pope:

Often, when you think about talking about regular schedule, what comes to mind there? Right. Are, are we, uh, every year, every other year? Is it monthly? Is it, you know, what does that typically look like, Jen, when you bring that type of suggestion to a team?

Jen Hamilton:

It's a great question. cause as you all know with marketing, you know, this is a really powerful way that you can share your story very, very quickly by understanding what it is that people would do to especially NPS, to be able to recommend. Others. And the thing that I. see is that people get the regularly scheduled is the part that I. love about it. And what they miss about it is that putting a system around it to cause it to happen. Of course, I'm gonna say that as an operations person, um, I, I would like someone to be touched if you will, asked once a year, but it doesn't, I think we're pe at least, um,'cause we don't want to overdo it. But you can also wrap in a testimonial kind of experience with it. You can also wrap in a referral type experience so you can really put some good. Systems around it because, uh, having that, that survey results can, you know, basically spur, trigger some other good activities, but you don't, the thing that people mess up to is like, they do it all at the same time. You could actually, you know, spread it out amongst different clients so that the trigger, if you will, is off of maybe their start date or, or something like that. Instead of like, okay, we have to do it on November 1st, or whatever.

Mary Blanche:

Yeah, I was gonna ask you if you ever do it, um, like deliverable base. So like when you finish a big, when you finish a big project or a big engagement, if you ever tie it to, um, maybe not necessarily like a, a time metric, but a yeah.

Jen Hamilton:

Yeah, that's a great example. You can also systematize it around a trigger event. It could be not just the end of the engagement where I think a lot of people do it, but where you can really get fancy and, um, you would have to work with your client service team. But it's very powerful if you, if you look at your overall engagement and you think of like. Where are some moments of the engagement, where they're really having a high, high and definitely not ask when they're having a low low. I mean, there are times we make our clients very, very happy and very, very upset. It's just part of the process, Right. Because we're advisors, I. We're telling them sometimes bad news, but then we also win the day. So if you can really trigger to those, whoa, the whoa moments, I'm really in love with you. That's the best time to ask for all three testimonials, NPS, referrals, all the things.

Austin McNair:

All right. The next one on the list is seamless transition from sales to service delivery.

Joe Pope:

Oh, close to my heart,

Austin McNair:

I.

Jen Hamilton:

I'm so afraid. I don't know what's gonna be number one, but I. wanna put a Two I wanna put a two maybe.

Austin McNair:

all.

Jen Hamilton:

Yeah.

Mary Blanche:

do you have any best practices with that? Like when you're advising your clients on, on how to have a seamless transition?

Joe Pope:

I.

Jen Hamilton:

I'm gonna say this, it seems so simple, but you need to have, and I'm gonna even go to marketing, right? Marketing, sales and service delivery to talk to each other, like at the leadership level if you have leaders of those different areas, but to really make sure that. What we're promising in our marketing, what we promise in our sales is what we're delivering and vice versa if something changes. So, like for me, um, another term for the work we do is called Integrator. And if you're familiar with EOS, and to me this is exactly why our, our role is called integrator. It's making sure we are integrating that everything is working in the same way. And so to have the leadership. Of each of those be able to do it. That's why when you're really, really, really tiny, like even a solopreneur, you can do this better than a large firm because you see every step of the process. You're a part of it. So you don't wanna lose that ability to feel confident that what your marketing promises and what your sales say, Yeah. we can put this together, is what you're gonna deliver. I have seen it go very badly when what is promised sounds so great and what is delivered is not.

Joe Pope:

Yeah, and I think one of the interesting things you said there is like, obviously with a smaller organization, your leaders pretty much have the opportunity to have that natural connection point, but even these larger organizations, just the best practice of keeping it simple, right? You, if you're not delivering what you're promising, the likelihood that your client's experience is gonna be solid is not likely. So that still best practice resonates with a company, you know, massive companies. They have to keep that type of process in their minds.

Jen Hamilton:

Yeah, they just have to work harder'cause they have more people.

Joe Pope:

That's right.

Austin McNair:

All right. Well, we kind of teed up this next one perfectly here. We still got the first spot. We've got the six and seven spots left, Jen. The next one is direct access to firm experts.

Jen Hamilton:

Hmm. Okay. I'm gonna go four. But Yeah. this is getting harder. Definitely getting harder. Um, you know, one of the things that I think why wouldn't put it number one?'cause you know, obviously I'm looking towards the top here with what I got left. Um, one of the things I would say is that if you truly can create a collaborative culture. it doesn't have to be that your, each client has direct access only to the firm expert, if that makes sense. If you truly work together, um, we all have different expertise. And so if you, if you have a collaborative culture, you can have access to multiple experts, and I think you can serve the client even better.

Austin McNair:

Okay, next on the list. Consistent, timely, follow up after key interactions.

Jen Hamilton:

I love the word consistent. Okay. I'm gonna go one

Austin McNair:

All right.

Joe Pope:

there's

Mary Blanche:

I love that my project management.

Jen Hamilton:

oh yeah. I mean, what did they say? The fortunes and the follow up talk about that in marketing, but it's the entire experience with the client and. Doggies. Like one of the things that Prime Amazon Prime has taught us is responsiveness and in client, um, based experience. While we can't like just say, order it and it's on your door and in 30 minutes, it's kind of what the overarching culture is expecting of us is extreme responsiveness. So that follow up now is like not an option. It's a, it's a necessity.

Joe Pope:

just inherently, as somebody who primarily does sales, right, I, I don't do as much billable work when it comes to the hinge side of the house. When I hear about things going wrong, it's very, I. Common that it's tied to a consistent, timely follow up where it really wasn't even necessarily an issue. But, you know, time passes, emotions, you know, go through thought processes and lead to miscommunication or losing just honestly, your hands on a wheel. And you see that across any industry, any honestly service that you're being provided that if you, if you lose track of that one, you're, you're in trouble. So I, I actually, I, I. I'm interested to see,'cause there's some others coming up that might make you worried, Jen. But that's a good number one from,

Jen Hamilton:

I know I.

Joe Pope:

this sales person's perspective.

Jen Hamilton:

I'm like seeing six and seven left. I'm like, oh, my babies are gonna go to the bottom and I want them to.

Austin McNair:

Well, let's do the reveal. So we, you got two slots here, left. Two options. the next one on the list is the ability to offer additional services based on evolving client needs.

Jen Hamilton:

okay. So good. Also really much more, uh, effective to sell to existing clients. So I'm gonna have to put it in six, like that's what I got left.

Austin McNair:

All right.

Jen Hamilton:

But I'll say I'm okay with it being a little bit lower because, um, sometimes the client exer experience team can identify it but not sell it well. Like they need a Joe in their world, so, okay. They at least need to identify it, but you. know, they need to partner with someone who can sell it sometimes.

Mary Blanche:

Yeah. Honestly, this is shaping up to be a pretty good list. Like I, I like your order here.

Jen Hamilton:

I'm worried. One

Austin McNair:

So well here. So here's the last option. We can see what we, we can debrief here on the the big list. So in the number seven spot would be brand experience across all touch points. So that would be number seven. How do we feel about that one being at the lower part of the list?

Jen Hamilton:

Ah, you know what? To me, uh, just because I wanna give myself an out, it feels a lot. Like two in terms of our conversation. Maybe not the same thing, but the intention when we were talking about two of having it be the same experience across, so, you know, maybe it higher, but we at least talked about how important it's.

Austin McNair:

Anything else you'd change on the list in terms of like the, blind rankings here? I mean. MB already gave her endorsement.

Jen Hamilton:

Oh gosh. Um, you know what? I do think it, it, it turned out pretty well. I might move the additional services up a little higher. I gotta say leaving sales towards the end doesn't make me feel super great. But yeah,

Joe Pope:

Maybe you just have such a really good marketing team on hand that all these leads are

Jen Hamilton:

there you go.

Joe Pope:

in and it's not as important.

Austin McNair:

Well, speaking of supporting each other, that, that, that lends itself to our next category. Jen, let's talk, let, let's talk about a new list, new blind rankings. Let's talk about company culture. Obviously another key area when you think about, you know, operations of a business. Of all sizes, right? Large business, small business, medium sized business company culture is such a key aspect of, you know, what drives performance, what drives, you know, that client experience that we were just talking about. Jen, for you, when you're, you know, as a fractional, COO, you know, what are some of the things you look for when you're thinking about company culture and you enter into a new engagement?

Jen Hamilton:

So. I'll say some of the things I look for are what brings them in to me most often. Um, and it's almost like I look for it even in the marketing side of things to just see if there's something, uh, aligned with our approach and what they need and the. The two major things that I see on the problematic side is that their people aren't, um, taking initiative, like coming up with their own ideas and they're not accountable. They feel like they can't trust them to do what they promise, you know? So those are the two big things. I haven't been into a company. To start with where those things are in place because they wouldn't be calling me. I mean, really at the heart of it, if we can't trust our people to do what they're gonna do or have them make decisions or problem solve on their own, especially in professional services. We are doomed, you know, so to me, all of the pieces, and I'm sure you'll reveal some things, even though I don't know what they are. But, um, I think that you'll see they all support in some way, shape or form. People being able to do their job well and take some initiative to, uh, like, here's what I think might need to be fixed, or here's an opportunity when we can get those two pieces together, the culture just starts to fall in place.

Austin McNair:

All right. Well, let's, let's get to the list. I'm super excited to see what, where, where you place these things. Let's start, uh, I'll start with a little bit of an easier one maybe here. How about flexibility in work arrangements? So like, are we hybrid, are we remote? Do we, are we full-time in office In terms of company culture? I know that, you know, post pandemic, that that is a huge conversation right now in the world. Um, how would you rank it in terms of importance?

Jen Hamilton:

Uh, that's the hard part because I do think it's critical the workforce is asking for it. But in terms of what else could be on my list, I'm gonna go five and I hope I don't regret that.

Austin McNair:

All

Jen Hamilton:

And I'll say this, um, this is one of the things. That annoys me is, um, we're talking a little bit about going old school on certain ways of thinking. Um, I don't like being in office because I need to micromanage you and I don't trust you. So it's the why you're in the office. Um, so that's why I kind of like, okay, you know, like we have to have a reason. You can be flexible and hybrid, or in the office if it's just because I'm too, I'm gonna get a little preachy here. I'm too lazy of a leader to actually be a leader and trust you no matter what your environment is. I'm not okay with that. That is a broken culture.

Joe Pope:

Yeah, I was hearing, uh, from a a, um, try to be vague here'cause I don't wanna call them out too much, but I was hearing from a family member who works for a large company and they are pushing to do a back to office type approach. You know, he doesn't live close to the office right now. He, I. Travels every couple weeks to do a day or two. Uh, but they're now pushing for, as a part of a corporate rollout, three day in office with the intention of potentially going all the way back to five day in office. And then you get a certain amount of quote flexible days. Best part about this though is this individual's boss doesn't live in the state where the office is. Therefore they won't be there. It's just something that they're pushing the team to have to do.

Jen Hamilton:

Yeah. I, I don't like where this post pandemic trend is. Um, and I, I. don't know this for sure, but I think I heard something about like zoom going back in the office, like, really zoom? Are you kidding me? Um, and maybe that was just a me or a joke, but anyway, the, my point is like everything needs a purpose. Whatever your work arrangement is. Have a purpose, so have flexibility in the purpose and in the individual when the day is done, if you can get more productivity out of an individual because they can have that flexibility, why wouldn't you?

Mary Blanche:

you have any advice for companies that are actually largely remote? Like how, how you keep that kind of comradery and you know, collective culture?

Jen Hamilton:

Well, and that's sometimes the, um. The like shiny version of why we need you back in the office, Right. Or we're, we're gonna lose our culture. We have to have the camaraderie. So I'm glad you brought that up. But it again, like the undertones, if it's really just like, we don't trust you unless we can see what that you're working, you know what, they're gonna figure that out and be like, eh, pH if I may. Um, so I think the thing is, is that you have to really understand why hu, how humans connect and it. Yes, I hundred percent agree. You can connect more in person, but that doesn't have to be every day. You know, I have worked remote for many, many years. My client, many, many, many years. I didn't wanna, you know, like basically my son's graduating from college, and you can do the math. I started being flexible with it when he, when he was born. But, uh, so before it was cool, let's put it that way. But the thing, the thing is, is that I don't feel not connected to my people. My clients are. All remote. when we do have like an annual planning session or something and we come together, absolutely there is more connection. You can't pass that up, but it doesn't have to be every day. You know you can do other things, but when the day is done, are you listening to what matters to your team and doing your best to. Honor what matters to them. You know, it's not just a paycheck. It's not just, being in person or whatever, or like, Hey, we got some cool donuts coming in on Monday, so you should show up. What matters is do they feel like you care about them, that what they do you see as important and it contributes. So it doesn't matter if you're remote or in person, if you're not doing that piece, they're not connected. The culture isn't strong.

Joe Pope:

To answer the question of Zoom's remote policy, Gemini has informed me that employees within 50 miles of the office are required to work at least two days of the week in the office. And the determining factor, the determining factor is the mileage. And I just have a question. Is that as the bird flies or are we talking like miles where you have to drive?

Austin McNair:

There's definitely some people out there doing that math. so Jen, next on the list here is related, right? We were kind of just touching on it, but, the social events and team building activities. So, I mean this, I definitely has overlap with what you were just saying, but how would you rank that in terms of importance?

Jen Hamilton:

Just because I'm thinking other things are gonna be more important. I'm gonna put it in seven, we'll see how it goes. And I kind of already shared that, right. It's, it's what you do in those events that matters, not the events themselves.

Austin McNair:

Love

Mary Blanche:

any? Good examples of like what you've seen work really well.

Jen Hamilton:

Yeah. I'll give an example that that worked. Um. Really well that I recently just did, and you can do this hybrid or in person. Um, it was very, it was a little bit more vulnerable, but we truly got connected and knew each other. Very quickly, which was we made a, a collective, playlist and we put in our, like three songs that kind of define us. And so, but that was submitted in advance. someone else made the playlist and then when we did, the event we had as part of it was kind of like, not just name that tune, but name that who, who was the one that submitted it, and then you had to share like, why, what, how does this represent you now? With a smaller group, you have a bigger group, you're, it's gonna take a long time, but man, did our playlist come out great too.

Mary Blanche:

That's

Austin McNair:

feel like if we did that all of, you know, half the songs for uh, would be like a bunch of emo post punk songs that Joe and I put in there.

Joe Pope:

Yeah, that's right.

Austin McNair:

be tons of Taylor Swift. Yeah, it'd be a big combination of that. Um, okay, next on the list here, strong onboarding programs for new hires.

Jen Hamilton:

I put it two.

Austin McNair:

Oh.

Jen Hamilton:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Joe Pope:

It seems to be a pretty confident choice to throw that right up there at the top. I, I'm guessing there's some horror stories of ones that you've,'cause I'm guessing you don't necessarily come in and you see a bunch of strong onboarding programs. Any, any horror stories that come to mind on onboarding approaches, uh, that you had to. Kill very quickly.

Jen Hamilton:

Um, basically it's more that they're non-existent in most companies I walk into versus like, really, really bad. The bad is not having one or, or like thinking it's onboarding. And part of why like the first 90 days in any relationship, um, is really critical, right? You get to start to build a habit. Together and you start to get to know each other. And so we wanna, I mean, any 90 days of anything, right. That's where you really ingrain habits. So if we don't do it intentionally, we're not clear on what's expected of them. We're not clear on what our culture is. We're not clear on how they fit and how this is all gonna work, which is what is lacking in basically every onboarding program I've ever. Um, boarding program I've ever walked into. it starts them off. Really set up to fail. And then what will happen is oftentimes the blaming of the person, um, you know, that, that it's their person versus really if you stop step back and see is like, did we set them up for success or failure? And so much of what I see culturally that doesn't go well. Is poor communication of expectations, and so an onboarding is really a communication of what do we expect you to do in this job? You have 90 days for us to really train you and support you, and guide you and kind of shape you into being super clear on the expectations so that you have the chance to demonstrate you can do it.

Austin McNair:

so halfway mark here. Uh, the next one on the list is Clear Career Paths and Opportunities for Advancement.

Jen Hamilton:

This kind lives with like flexibility. So I'm gonna put it in six just to again, be, be again. It's like. Both flexibility and career. growth plans are super important for our, our youngest generations in the workforce. Like this is what they look for, but I. will tell you, this is what they say they look for, which is why I'm putting it a little bit lower. I go back to the what? The career growth plans and opportunities for advancement. It's code for tell me I matter and that I'm important. So if we could do that, like in strong onboarding programs, like really being clear like, this is your role, this is why it's so important, and keep saying that and you're doing a great job. yes, it's important for them to know there's a place to grow into it, but just having them understand that they are growing where they are is. More important than like, you're getting to the next point because you also don't want people who are there just for the flexibility or just for the career paths. So if you tailor everything around what the, uh, newer generation, which my son is one, he is stepping into a professional service firm after college in the fall. And so, you know, I, I know what they're asking, but what you really. What he really wants is just to know that I can keep growing and I don't have to say, okay, I get this title, or whatever. They'll ask for it. But what they're really asking for is acknowledgement. You see me, you see that I'm doing a good job and I'm getting better and I'm helping.

Austin McNair:

You've got some, some top picks here left, and I think you're gonna be happy with yourself here'cause I in, in some of the answers here that you've, you've said, you've alluded to some of these things. The next one is a supportive and inclusive team environment.

Jen Hamilton:

That's really everything. I wanna put it one. We're gonna go one. We're going one.

Joe Pope:

You, you just pitched it for the last, like three to four minutes, so I,

Jen Hamilton:

How can I not?

Joe Pope:

yeah.

Jen Hamilton:

That's everything we've been talking about. Absolutely.

Joe Pope:

Yeah, absolutely. In terms of some coaching tips on how to promote that type of thing.'cause I think you see those words supportive, you see inclusive, like

Jen Hamilton:

Right.

Joe Pope:

that being said, a lot of times you'll also see organizations just use those words on a website and do absolutely nothing else that's going to help that type of person be successful. What are some tips you typically give folks? You know, this is number one on how to bring those types of things in.

Jen Hamilton:

So I can't stand words on a wall like you just said. You know, like, we say this, but we don't do it. Whether it's a website wall or a physical wall, doesn't really matter. Um, and to that point, it's, it's all about the tone at the top. What is the leadership doing? Are they truly creating an environment that they want? If. If they just think back about like when I was in the position because they grew to this position most likely, or even if they were in a different firm and came here and was like. You know, at some point we all had to start. Right? And my biggest coaching tip is understand human nature. So a lot of times I think people say, oh, it's culturally different, or maybe it's age different, or gender different, or whatever. No, no, no, no. Get yes and no. Where you can be super effective and kind of have a shortcut is understanding human nature. And so my favorite shortcut is Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. If you can just understand that we, this is what a human needs and the best you can to be able to provide. Some of the things we've been talking about, I see that you are getting mastery. I see that you are, you know, really gifted at this. This is like your purpose. This is what you're good at. I. you feel part of a culture. We see your needs, we care for you, feel supported, you feel secure, like that is your shortcut to human motivation and influence.

Austin McNair:

Man, we are getting so much like deep insight here. I, I love this, Jen. Okay, the next one on the list is. Is a clear articulation and consistent reinforcement of core values.

Jen Hamilton:

Ooh, it's a good one. Okay, I'm gonna go three. I think people underestimate core values. and like we said, this is oftentimes where you see words on the wall. Um, core values aren't an exercise you do on a Saturday during a retreat and be like, these words sound great, you know, it's truly, look. Yes, I've heard people

Joe Pope:

I'm sure, uh, that had to have come from experience, but go ahead.

Jen Hamilton:

Um, what I, the exercise I do, if someone doesn't have core values or we really realize they're just not living their core values, the exercise we do is very, very, simple and very, very powerful, especially with the leadership team or maybe the whole team, if it's a smaller organization is, think about those people that you just. Love and would love to clone in your organization. Right. And what are some of their qualities? What are some of the things, when you think of those people, what are those things they sort of have in common? And then you ask the second question, which is, think of those people who are like, can we just fire them fast? And like, why are they even here? And think about what is the, they have in common, their qualities, the way they, their behavior, the way they thought. And write the, then write the opposite of that. And you're gonna see those two lists line up nicely. I haven't had a time where there isn't like, whoa, that's so cool. Look at how they overlap. What you have done as a group, you've define what truly fits here and it's gonna be different for every organization, but it, once you know what is our core, who we are, how we behave, how we work together, it makes a difference for everything in how you hire. How you do performance reviews, how you fire, how you decide everything else. You know, like based on our core values, are these the right clients for us? Is this the right team member for us? I. Is this the right social event for us? You know, Is this the right career path for us? It, it just should be part of your guardrails and making your decisions on what you do as a firm, as your core, as your core values. That's the power of core values. Not just like picking names,'cause you're told you're supposed to have core values.

Mary Blanche:

Is there like a magic number of of core values?

Jen Hamilton:

an excellent question. One of my, um, fun little games I like to play, which is kind of what we're doing here. Ironically, I didn't even think about this. So I like to take a larger list and combine them. You can hear me combining'em as we go along. Like those two things go together. So I'd rather have a long list. I think, oh, I did this retreat in, um. October and it was like, I think they literally had like 76 things, right?'cause we had so many people and I was able to bring it down to seven and then I made them pick five. I like three to five. but what I find is why I say I like to categorize things is because it gives more of the definition. When we start to see what are different versions of sort of the same thing. Um, so I'd say get the, get the whole thing out there and then just look for those commonalities, bring'em together. Having your top three of anything is very helpful. I. So I don't like to go more than five, but still, even then, force yourself to pick your top three because it's easy to remember three and, And you can have fun with it too. You can recognize around your core values, but at once the they're clear and people are truly embodying them and understanding them. It makes it much easier for you all to be rowing on the, in the same way.

Joe Pope:

and as long as you've done all those things, then we can put them on the wall.

Jen Hamilton:

Yes, I will let you.

Joe Pope:

Okay.

Jen Hamilton:

Great question Joe.

Austin McNair:

All right. Well that leaves the last spot here, right smack dab In the middle we have the final option, which was continuous learning and growth ecosystem.

Jen Hamilton:

You know what? I'm glad that is above the career path.'cause I think some people think those are the same thing. And I'm also glad it's separate. It is different. Um. It, it, oh, see, this is where I wanna combine things. I would say it's a bullet point under that supportive and inclusive team environment, right? Part of supporting that is that we all have a desire to continue to learn and to grow. And so to be able to really, um, understand. Especially in fields like we have where expertise is, is rewarded. You want them to be continuing to learn and grow. And I will say, just because I just said that expertise is rewarded, this should not be limited to technical skillset. Your learning and growth ecosystem needs to be eq, emotional intelligence, leadership, you know, just all of those things for them truly to grow.

Mary Blanche:

What advice would you give to a, a business leader who's thinking about, um, starting some sort of professional development program and they're not currently doing anything?

Jen Hamilton:

I always like to, you could probably hear this too, from the, the client experience. I like to listen for the complaints first, so we're in the same kind of vein. Where is the team complaints? About and what are those themes so that we can do some learning development around that. And I don't just mean about the team, it could be about leadership, right? What is leadership complaining about? The team, team, about the leadership, about the each other. We're gonna start to identify where are our weak points, and it can be technical and it can be, uh, essentially that emotional intelligence as well. So I like to, Always, uh, solve at the root cause. So if we can start to see those commonalities, those patterns around what's the, the culture really just breaking points, then we can build some intentional learning and development around that. You'll get much more from it if you kind of fill in the cracks of what's breaking around us. Um, and then the next learning and development can build on something that's stronger instead of, you know, kind of patchwork, quilting and putting these pieces together without intention.

Mary Blanche:

Yeah, that's great advice.

Austin McNair:

All right, well, two rounds down. Jen, what was that word you said at the beginning of the episode? You were like, scared and excited, scared, excited. Well, I, I feel like you're, uh, crushing. You're knocking it outta the park here. These rankings seem to be lining up, you know, well, with what, what you, what, what you kind of felt, you know, at the end of the rounds. Does that hold true for company culture? You feel good about the list?

Jen Hamilton:

I'm feeling pretty good. I'm feeling pretty good. Yeah. And now you set me up to totally tank.

Austin McNair:

That's right. That's right. And not, not, not only, uh, w we, we we're gonna add a little extra flavor to this one because we are, we're running out of time. We want to, we wanna make sure we can get through everything. Um, how about for this last round, round three, business intelligence, why don't we do a little bit of a lightning round?

Jen Hamilton:

Okay.

Austin McNair:

do, we'll get, we'll get producer John, John, throw in the, the thunder and lightning for us. Boom. There it was. Okay. At some point I want the ability to hit the sound

Joe Pope:

You need a soundboard,

Austin McNair:

I, I want the soundboard. Okay, Jen. So business intelligence, um, why don't we go through these quickly and then kind of round out the list at the end and, and see what you think. Does that sound

Jen Hamilton:

Okay.

Austin McNair:

All right.

Jen Hamilton:

do my best

Austin McNair:

So number one on the list here is defining clear measurable KPIs for all departments.

Jen Hamilton:

Two,

Austin McNair:

Two, it is for the clear and measurable KPIs. All right, number two, investing in a robust CRM system.

Jen Hamilton:

Okay. I'm surrounded by marketers. I'm gonna put three.

Joe Pope:

Thank you for throwing the bone

Austin McNair:

sounds like a biased

Jen Hamilton:

even if I wasn't, but I do know better.

Austin McNair:

I, I want to, I want to put a pin in that one and come back to it.

Joe Pope:

Roro robust is the key word there, but yeah, I agree. Let's, let's keep going.

Austin McNair:

Next on the list is utilizing data analytics to identify growth opportunities.

Jen Hamilton:

Five.

Austin McNair:

Five. All right.

Jen Hamilton:

Oh no.

Austin McNair:

On the list, conducting regular client profitability analysis.

Jen Hamilton:

Oh one.

Joe Pope:

Oh wow.

Mary Blanche:

I love that.

Austin McNair:

All right. Hold on. We're gonna have to pause the lightning round for a second. I know MB wants to ask a follow up question on that one.

Mary Blanche:

Uh, I'm, I'm just wondering like what your thought process is there?'cause I agree with you, but I, um, I'm almost like, say more.

Jen Hamilton:

Yes. Yeah. Okay. So one thing we didn't talk about is that career I started out of, um. College well went into was as a CPA. So profitability is really important to me. what I think is a real problem, and it can basically end in a firm or an organization, is not realizing that we're profitable. And so from a service line point of view, or from an individual point of view or a type of client, this can make or break a firm. So that's part of why I put it at the top, is that at the end of the day, this is the, this is the number that pays the bills and keeps paying them.

Austin McNair:

We can, we can nce here with the lightning round. That was, yeah, but I think, I feel, you know, that was number one. We had to kind of pause there for a second. All right. Lightning round is back on. We've got three more options here. So Jen, next one is standardizing operational processes.

Jen Hamilton:

You're saying this to? Oh. okay. We.

Austin McNair:

All right. Number four. It is. Okay. And then we've got tracking, employee utilization and productivity.

Jen Hamilton:

I'm afraid of what I'm gonna leave for number seven, but we're gonna go six.

Joe Pope:

we had an entire, like, segment of one of our previous episodes, Jen, on that very topic, I, I being the person who says I don't really want to fill out a time sheet and, and be our COO, if you will, telling me why I need to fill out a time sheet.

Austin McNair:

So Jen, that leaves for the seventh pick here, conducting post project reviews to capture lessons learned.

Jen Hamilton:

Okay. Okay.

Austin McNair:

All right.

Jen Hamilton:

have put it in number, like super in the top, super important. Um, I. it's part of that growth environment, right? That growth culture.

Joe Pope:

Mm-hmm.

Jen Hamilton:

Um, I can live with it being a little bit lower.

Austin McNair:

All right. Well, hey, congratulations for making it through the lightning round there. That was good. We, you know, we don't like to put the pressure on our guests too much, but you've been handling the pressure, uh, all episode. Tell us, uh, kind of wrap this up for us on business intelligence. What do you think of the list? Anything really stand out to you other than what we already talked about with the, the client profitability?

Jen Hamilton:

So I think, you know, overall, I would say, say this, if you are having trouble with productivity, it's probably this list. We, we can't really be as productive if we don't know what we're doing, what results it's causing, and if we have randomness of like people just kind of doing things their own way. So it, it is, I like to say that, um, profitability is determined by productivity of our team, especially in a service-based business. Like it's all about our people. So overarching, I think that might change things a little bit, but the overall message feels really good of like, we've got to know that what we're doing as a business is. Causing profitability in our operations is not just gonna fake profitability by throwing in some other numbers and keep measuring all of the things around that and having systems that keep us, Knowing what to do with our job, whether it's a process. I love what you said about that robust, not just a CRM. Robust is a very big difference between like what most CRMs I see is it truly using the tools we have around

Joe Pope:

That's right.

Jen Hamilton:

us better.

Austin McNair:

Well, Jen, we squeezed so many like great insights out of that session you did. Um, I feel like this is a real endorsement for us coming back to this game in the future. I mean, that was, um, really, really well done. We're so grateful that you were able to join us on this episode of, of Spiraling Up. where can people learn more about you, get in touch with you, tell people how they can, uh, follow what, what you're talking about and what, what, what kind of things, ways they can connect with you.

Jen Hamilton:

Well, sure. If you. wanna know more geeky stuff about operations, um, you can tell I geek out about this. Hamilton COOs is a plural.com. That's my website and I have all kinds of little videos. And tricks if you, if you are okay with this kind of personality, you're gonna see it on videos too. Free videos, free training round tables where we do come together as peers. All, all complimentary because at the end of the day, we gotta start by supporting each other.

Austin McNair:

Excellent. Well, for Jen, Joe, myself, Mary Blanche, thank you to all the listeners who've made it here to the end of the episode. If you haven't done so yet, make sure you subscribe to the YouTube channel. If you're watching on YouTube, hit the like button. Uh, or if you're listening on Apple, Spotify, or any other audio platform, leave us a review. Uh, this is still a new podcast and we are gonna continue to find more. Amazing, intelligent experts like Jen to come on and join us and to have fun so that we can continue to learn and grow together in the space of professional services, uh, branding, marketing, business development operations. We're, we're talking about it all. That's what we do on spiraling up. So thank you for listening and we will see you on the next one. Thank you everybody.