Spiraling Up — Marketing For Professional Services

Don't SEVER Your Personality at Work, with John Garrett

• Hinge • Season 1 • Episode 14

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Fight back against toxic workplace cultures ✊

In this episode of Spiraling Up, the Hinge team dives into the evolving landscape of work culture, featuring an insightful discussion with John Garrett, author of 'What's Your And?' Garrett emphasizes the importance of valuing employees beyond their job titles and integrating personal passions into professional life. The conversation also explores the impact of AI on productivity, managing work-life balance, and creating a people-centric workplace. 

CHAPTERS:
00:00 Introduction
04:54 Introduction to John Garrett
11:27 Toxic Takes
13:01 Toxic Trait #1
20:21 Toxic Trait #2
22:53 Toxic Trait #3
30:22 Practical Ways to Apply Your 'And'
35:43 Toxic Trait #4
39:46 Sharing Hidden Talents
43:01 Connect With John Garrett
44:01 Pivotal Story: The Infinite Workday
54:41 Final Thoughts

Connect with John Garrett on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thejohngarrett/
Visit John Garrett's Website: https://www.thejohngarrett.com/

Austin McNair:

In today's episode of Spiraling Up, a new report from Microsoft suggests that the nine to five is dead. We're always working. How about that? But first we're gonna be speaking with the author of What's Your and John Garrett about how we can all value each other beyond the work we do during the week. It's gonna be a great conversation. Welcome everyone. This is Spiraling Up with Hinge. Welcome everyone, to spiraling up the podcast for professional services marketers and business leaders. My name is Austin McNair, and as always, I am joined by my colleagues and co-hosts, Mary Blanche Kramer,

Joe Pope:

What up, Austin?

Austin McNair:

and on the other side of the room, Joe Pope.

Joe Pope:

You just broke the 14 episode streak of saying, Hey, hey, after you were introduced, I mean, hey is a pretty good one.

Austin McNair:

you guys are together. Uh, what's going on? I mean, this is, this is, uh, kind of a novelty, right? We're usually in separate locations. What's going on?

Joe Pope:

Yeah. Uh, We are both in hinges, Roslyn, Virginia office. we're heading to a networking event tonight. Uh, we're, have a partnership sponsorship with the local DC chapter of s and PS, uh, and they've got a, they've got an event planned. Few of us are gonna go out. Mary Blanch made the drive up. Uh, but yeah, novel. We get to sit in a room and attempt to podcast in the same room. I hear people try this.

Austin McNair:

I love it. And, and I, you know, of course, wish I could be there with you guys, but it sounds like you guys have a cool event planned. we've got a great podcast episode planned. Awesome guest today, John Garrett. Joe, you and I spoke with John, uh, a couple of weeks ago. Uh, I think we can tell people from the beginning here this episode will be a little bit different. we're talking about marketing, but beyond that, I mean, I think. You know, John's premise and his book, what's Your, and really is about, you know, who you are as a person, what you, you know, what you bring to the table beyond just your technical skills. as a worker, John himself, you know, he describes himself as, a recovering CPA and a, former standup comedian. I, I, I guess just to kind of kick us off here, I, you know, I'm excited to talk about what our ends are and, and stuff with John, but, You know, former standup comedian, it stood out to me. I mean, have you guys had any experience doing anything like that? Being in front of people, having to give, you know, presentations, speeches, comedy, et cetera?

Joe Pope:

Yeah, I think we do that all the time in, in our, our, our jobs, like speaking engagements. But I'm trying to think outside of work, because that's what he is talking about, right? Is like, you know, the things that you enjoy outside of work. I MCed our, uh, 10th grade, talent show. So, um, I have that feather in my cap. but other than that, like we're talking about being on stage, like the only other things that come to mind are like. Show choir and competition, cheerleading. Um, because outside of, you know, speaking professionally for work, I don't, I don't find myself on a stage much these days. What about you? Uh, yeah, I, I did have a, a turn in high school as a actor or wannabe thespian. Player, I think is what they call it. Right. Uh, but no, my high school had a really intense drama department that was pretty diverse. I mean, we had jocks and geeks and nerds, whatever you wanna say, all together, uh, and relatively recognized with award-winning productions and so forth. We were like the first high school to do Miz, which was like a huge deal. And now every high school does es uh, so yeah, no, I mean that's, that's probably it. I was usually like. Third back, you know the character that dies like six or seven times throughout a play. What about you, Austin?

Austin McNair:

I mean, I, I don't think a lot of people know this about me, but I, I got a lot of public Speaking experience back. I, I describe it as my nonprofit era. I was both, uh, kind of working as a marketer at a nonprofit, so I would run a lot of charity events and have some speaking roles there, but I was also heavily involved in a church and I would even preach from time to time in front of people. far. Cry from standup comedy. I never got a lot of laughs whenever I was preaching. But, uh, it was definitely a fun experience to, you know, try to prepare something formal and bring it to the table. And I think a lot of those skills of, like John's book said, you know, carried into who I am today. You know, in, in the work I do with Hinge and even my present, you know, my presentation skills and hosting skills, I, I, I got a lot of those chops from that. Era in that time when I was doing a lot of that public speaking. So, a lot of what John says, um, man, I, I really resonated. I know that we do as well. so I'm excited to bring that to our, our listeners. So why don't we go ahead now and introduce, our speaker, John Garrett. We're honored to, welcome to today's guest, John Garrett. a people-centric leadership, keynote speaker, and a self-described recovering CPA and former professional standup comedian, John empowers leaders and organizations to boost employee engagement and productivity by cultivating a positive workplace culture. John, welcome to Spiraling Up.

John Garrett:

thanks for having me on. This is gonna be a blast.

Joe Pope:

John really excited. Uh, you've got such an interesting angle. I enjoyed, uh, our prep call we did a few weeks back, but I'd love if you could kind of just give us a quick summary of what's your and, and why you think it's so important for professional services organizations.

John Garrett:

Absolutely. Uh, what's your end is just, uh, who else are you beyond the job title? You're a CPA and a college football fan. You're an attorney and a ballroom dancer and a volunteer at the dog shelter. What are these hobbies and passions and interests that you have beyond work? because so many people get wrapped up in their identity being their job title, and you are not an engineer. You're a human being who does engineering work. Uh, and it's so crazy that, that we allow ourselves to allow our identity to become. and that's not who you are. You're a human being that does that work. And especially as people-centric leaders, it's shining a light on those for yourself, but also your people. Uh, what lights your people up on a soul level.

Joe Pope:

John, I was actually, uh, listening to on the, on the drive up to, to DC this morning, I was listening to one of your keynote speeches actually, and it was, you were telling the story about, an IT guy that you interviewed and, uh, he happened to love singing. and he said that singing was like, breathing and happy. And I I love that, really resonated with me. And so I wanted to ask you what breathing and happy looks like for you.

John Garrett:

Yeah, mark Windberg, uh, amazing, right? Because he said breathing in happy, it was singing. And I was like, well, what about it? Control audits, you know? And he's like, nah, nah. Like,

Joe Pope:

That do it for you.

John Garrett:

Right? Does that do it for you? but that's how people act. for me, my breathing in happy College football, I love college football. I went to Notre Dame, but all college football, of course. Uh, I love going to concerts, love music, love, all that stuff. I saw that, Joe, that's good. If you had three thumbs down, if you had three

Joe Pope:

Uh, it's still a sore subject.

John Garrett:

Right, right. I love ice cream. Uh, I play the piano. these are things that bring me joy. and I love travel as well. you meet a lot of people and, and they've forgotten, they've abandoned that part of themselves for the sake of quote unquote success. And, then I ask them, and, and some people stumble and give yourself some grace. You know, if you don't have something off the top of your head, just go back in time. what did I used to love to do before I had kids? Or before I was married, or before, you know, college or before, whatever. You know, like, there's, There's other parts of you that are still there.

Joe Pope:

Well, I know one of the things that, uh, and the reason you got the two thumbs down is, uh, college football's a big thing for me as well, and, uh, unfortunately the team that I support, Penn State, lost to Notre Dame in

John Garrett:

Yeah. Still a great season though, you

Joe Pope:

That was great. Well, thank you for the optimism's. Great.

John Garrett:

yeah.

Joe Pope:

Um, but no, I mean, you're exactly right. It's what is the passion that is the reason why you go to work every day? I mean, we can talk about our kids, we can talk about Things that we enjoy in life and, and so forth and as marketers and a podcast that was designed for professional services marketers and those that are in this space, being able to tell these stories, even if it is sometimes for the boring professional service stuff, but the energy behind it. Right? It means a lot. And I think that was one of the biggest reasons why we thought you would be a great guest to bring in John to help bring some of this energy, right? Because we're storytellers at our, at our core, and that's, that's what we need to do. We need to find energy and storytelling.

John Garrett:

Yeah. We're humans and those stories are what, what makes things sticky with clients because clients also like Penn State football or mountain biking or whatever your jam is. and I focus almost exclusively Lee on turning that internally. Um, which is where marketing can also come into play, And, because if, you get all the clients but you don't have any staff, well then you're not gonna have any clients left'cause no one's doing the work. you know, that's why the people centric leadership is take care of your people first and then that will help the client service the succession planning, the consistency of service, and you, you create those human relationships and that's what matters.

Joe Pope:

And, and, uh, said the Penn State example, but just to finish your question about my hands, uh, it's continuing to pretend that I can still play sports at close to 40 years old, playing

John Garrett:

There you go.

Joe Pope:

in the mall, and brewing beer. I love brewing beer. It's

John Garrett:

Okay. Okay. That's awesome. Yeah. What about you, Mary?

Joe Pope:

so for me, paddle boarding, I love that. I love snowboarding. tennis is another, sport. I enjoy. I love wineries wine.

John Garrett:

Okay.

Joe Pope:

yeah, traveling and music. I love going to concerts.

John Garrett:

Yeah. Very cool. That's awesome. Austin.

Austin McNair:

Yeah, I mean, I'm also a big football fan, but down here in Brazil we call it Fuji Ball, not,

John Garrett:

Oh, right.

Austin McNair:

I'm a big soccer fan. Um, I've, I've been supporting a Premier League team now for like, over a decade. My family, like randomly just got really into it. So it's a real cool way for me to like, stay in touch with my brother, stay in touch with my dad and some friends back home, just to like, watch the games together, talk about what's happening following a team. but other than that, man, I, I'm one of these people with maybe too many, ands my wife gets annoyed with me anytime I start to pick up a new hobby, during the pandemic, I went through a chess phase. back in 2018 I started doing Juujitsu. So I've been doing Juujitsu for now for, oh, like seven

John Garrett:

Wow.

Austin McNair:

And then when we moved to Brazil, I was like, ah, the ocean's right there. I better start surfing too. So just, I like to throw the ants on top of the ants and, and, and drive the

John Garrett:

Yeah,

Austin McNair:

Mm-hmm.

John Garrett:

well it, but that's important to note that like the, and is a container, kind of the eye of the hurricane. Uh, it's your rock. And it doesn't have to be the same thing all the time, and, it's just as long as there's something in there, you know, then, then you're good. because everything else around us is always changing. I mean, your job's changing, you're getting promoted or you're going to an new organization, whatever it is. Like that's changing. The technology's changing. It's just constant change. And if you put your identity out in that, well, good luck.'cause you don't even know who you are anymore. But if your identity is at the core, well then whatever you can do, go nuts all around me and I'm good'cause I got that to fall back on.

Austin McNair:

So, John, I, I think this is gonna be a really fun segment that we've got planned for you today. So because I think what, one thing that you, what you talk about, I think, resonates so deeply with people because it cuts right to the heart of like, who we are as people, right? And a lot of people kind of, it's like an existential question. Like, how much of myself should I bring to work? um, if I'm managing a team, how should I, you know. Bring out the best in people? Like what you talk about resonates and kind of cuts through the best of all of those questions. And so what we wanted to do today, John, is to share some thoughts that other people have, some other mindsets that are out there in the business community

John Garrett:

Oh, this is gonna be so fun.

Austin McNair:

this issue of like, who, who should you be at work, how do, how do you manage teams? we'd like to go into this segment, which we're tentatively calling here, toxic Takes. We wanna see where you maybe think like,

John Garrett:

Yeah.

Austin McNair:

a people centered, mindset here, or there's a little bit of toxicity here. Uh, and just get your thoughts on the back of, some of these, these clips that we've identified. All right, John. So our video to watch together is a guy named Julian Cole. Julian is a self-described strategist and coach. he's got a huge Instagram following, LinkedIn following and YouTube following whatever. and I actually like a lot of his videos, but after we talked a couple weeks ago, this was the first video I thought of. And so I'm really interested to see what you think. Julian, Cole has to stay here.​Okay, John. So the worst thing you can do is be yourself at work according to Julian Cole. I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

John Garrett:

yes and no. I love how he says that's your, your role at work. and don't marry your identity and your self-worth and all of that to your work I disagree. The no comes in the divorcing it. When you leave, it's still part of you. When you leave work, can you like not take your right arm? no. It's, it's, it's who I am. I mean, you can't not have that as a part of you Now, does that part need to be driving the bus? No, and that's the thing that I think a lot of people conflate is that, there's a work identity that you have. Don't abandon that for sure. there's a family identity that you have and certainly don't abandon that. But there's also a you identity that's just you, And that identity existed before, anything and that's the first one that we abandoned so that's why I say yes and no. But he's right. Of course he's trying to get clicks and what have you. I'm sure. So, and maybe he truly does believe it, and I gotta work on an accent. That's what I took away from that video. Uh, so you're not truly being an actor and you're not truly divorcing at all. It's all you. It's just which side's in charge.

Austin McNair:

John, when we talked before and I watched this video again, it, it, I couldn't help but think of an a TV show I watched called Severance, on Apple tv, which is like this, dystopian world where this, ominous company, they plant a chip in their employees brains that when they walk in the door they don't remember what their life is outside. They have an Audi and then they have an in,

John Garrett:

Okay.

Austin McNair:

which is the personality that you know is in the workspace and then they leave. it, it's a crazy TV show'cause it's like a lot of cultural commentary there of like, how it can be soul killing if you completely try to separate. What you do at work and who you are at home that can actually, damage you, you know, a lot.

John Garrett:

very much so. There's actually research that shows how terrible it is, uh, at Northwestern University. That is study that found that, yeah, the more you separate your at work identity and your outside of work identity, the more likely you're gonna make bad moral decisions because, well, I make some shady moves at work. It doesn't make me a bad parent or a bad spouse or a bad friend. but the more that you bring that wall down and bring the two together and you realize like, oh. It's all me, then the more that you'll make better moral choices at work. So it makes you a better professional to have an and and share it and bring it with you.

Joe Pope:

So, John, let's pull on that bit further. How could a leader or a manager, director, whatever it might be, promote a culture that makes their mid-level staff, even the junior folks just coming in and starting their careers feel more comfortable to bring that personality to work so they aren't trying to just create this divorce, if you will.

John Garrett:

a great way would be to lead by example. if you were to share, this weekend I'm heading to a winery and I, you know, I'm, gonna do a tour and like, I'm really into that. What are you into, you know, those sort of things where if you share first, then it's like the universe is out of balance. And then you ask them, they can't be like, uh, nothing. you know, or, or whatever You, hopefully they don't say that, I also think that if it's just eventually part of the culture where, maybe there's an all staff meeting that we do every quarter or every whatever, and then a different person gets up and does like three minutes, and, all of a sudden now there's some emotion at work. So it's just, it's just a little peek behind the curtain. It's not, you know, getting super vulnerable, but just like a little bit.

Austin McNair:

I am gonna put Mary Blanche on the spot here'cause this is actually something that she and a couple of our other colleagues at Hinge organized for our own company, where on the occasional Monday they, a, a, a particular hinge, has like kind of spotlighted and kind of given almost like a presentation about themselves. Mb do you wanna talk about kind of like, where that came from and how that, how you think that's gone?

Joe Pope:

Yeah, we started doing that as it maybe, I mean, it's been close to a year and each month we pick, a different, h in the organization and they just take about 15, 20 minutes, um, in our weekly all staff meeting and just so we can learn a little bit more about them. And it's nice because it's both personally and professionally, so they are, you know, telling us the things that they enjoy, but they're also saying like, Hey, this is, you know, I really respond well, to this or when, someone talks to me in this way. So it's also learning, um, almost different like strategies and ways to, you know, know their working style better. And, yeah, it's, it's been, it's been really fun. Let me ask you a question. Do you think there's such thing as being to yourself at work? So whether that's maybe someone who's oversharing or,

John Garrett:

Oh yeah. Uh, if it's drama like, Hey, we don't need to hear about your 10th breakup this week. Okay, that's not a thing. In my book I talk about how the definition of professionalism has evolved so rapidly. I mean, in the last five years, but even the last a hundred years. that it's hard to even define professional anymore. Um, but unprofessional has always been and will always be. If you're inhibiting your ability to do your work or someone else's ability to do theirs. So, I love to play the electric guitar. Do you bring in your amp and crank it on 10? No, you can't. Now if, if it's part of your 15 minutes, hinge meeting presentation, then yeah, play the guitar. That'd be freaking awesome. what I found from working with clients This bridges the gaps between DEI conversations. It bridges the gaps between generational difference conversations. It bridges the gaps between critical feedback conversations. It just makes everything better where it's like, oh, we're two humans, and then we can have a conversation as opposed to, you are this and I'm that, and ah I used to joke when I speak that like, you know, if, if nudist is your and, uh, maybe not that, um, you know, like that's, you know, I'm just, John Garrett said I should just, no, you shouldn't. Um, and actually put a coat on on top of the clothes, like, yeah,

Joe Pope:

That's probably a really good segue, uh, in terms of the ones that

John Garrett:

Okay.

Joe Pope:

gonna find a way to, into the next piece of this, this, discussion. Uh, well in terms of things that really stand out and sometimes in the negatives, there's a variety of, social profiles that like to poke fun at LinkedIn specifically. A few of'em are, uh, best of LinkedIn on, uh, the on Instagram and LinkedIn lunatics on X Twitter. Uh, those are ones that this group regularly shares with each other. we thought that it might be fun to maybe scroll through there and find one that stood out to us. Uh, I think Austin.

Austin McNair:

Yeah, I'll, I'll read it for the sake of our podcast listeners. and we'll, blur who this person is on, on, on YouTube. Um, but yeah, so what do you think about this? Take John, true or false? The people who say LinkedIn is only for weekdays are the same ones who live for Friday. Like, it's freedom. Let that sink in. If you only show up when the world or your job tells you to, who's really in charge of your life, hashtag fulfillment spelled incorrectly.

John Garrett:

yeah. And I wish that the, the full had two Ls.'cause then it would be like, well, you know, but the fulfillment had two Ls. Like, come on now. yeah, that's, interesting. cause that's actually, that's kind of deep, the people that are telling you that, LinkedIn is only for weekdays, know, are the same people that are, trapped at their work. they're not living their best life. because, and if you're not living your best life, you're not gonna do your best work. and so probably. They don't have an and either because it's been probably just sucked out of them. And it's interesting too because so many people allow someone who's given up on their dreams to tell you to give up on yours. you're not a good role model, but you're, you're a partner or you are a manager. you're, you're what success is at this organization. And so I'm willing to cut out my heart to be successful. You're Never going to catch it. There's never enough money. There's never enough status. There's never enough. And, and it doesn't mean don't be good at your job and don't be proud of what you do. It's just, if you really think about you as a human, the work, you 10, 15% maybe, I mean friends and faith and family and hobbies and passions and interests and all these other dimensions to who you are, and yet it's so easy for us to allow that work to become 100%.

Austin McNair:

John, one of my ands, or maybe it's more of like a fun fact, is that when I was college, I actually studied philosophy, how I made it into a career in marketing. It was a windy, very, interesting road, but,

John Garrett:

yeah.

Austin McNair:

philosophy is what I studied in college. And still to this day, one of the things I like to do is kind of still dabble in that world of philosophy and kind of, what thinkers, you know, are saying, or, you know, commentary about, different, great minds of the past. So, I love this account. this is a guy, who runs an account called Philosophy Minis. His name is Johnny Thompson. And what I want to know, John, is, what do you think here about a take from Aristotle? We wanna know, do you think Aristotle is toxic or more people-centric? Let's hear, uh. All right, John, what do you think about Aristotle?

John Garrett:

I've never heard of Aris. No, I'm just teasing. Uh, that's it. That's exactly it. What's your and is just repackaged that, eudaimonia, he talks about, and that's the optimal state of human existence. It's bringing all of who you are to everything that you do. That's a piece of my book. I love Aristotle and, I mean there's a small percentage based on my research, let's, it's around 8% that work is their aunt. That's, that's what their whole identity and that's okay-ish. but what's, what's also okay is the 92% to not have work be their dream day in the future you know? but the problem is, is that 8% is bullied. The 92% to stifle. It. and if you have something, why, your free time, you should be doing more work. And if you don't do more work, then why would you talk about it at work? Are you crazy? that's the mentality that people have. And so I love all of that times a thousand. I would imagine it hinge like projects go so much better and you're way more creative together when you know who each other is. and you're able to play, you're able to have some fun, you're able to let the guard down, you're able to fail a little bit because holy crap, we didn't fail on that one. We accidentally created magic. you know, where if you just play down the middle and bring the bumper rails in super tight, then nothing, nothing good's going to happen. and so yeah, so there's a time and a place for that. But, for me, I mean, I was a CPA and obviously accounting's not a space for, creativity, But for me, like my creativity muscle was being exercised outside of work, when I was doing standup, and improv and things like that. Then when it came time to, go do an audit and you bring a sense of humor as an auditor, cool. You're the best auditor ever. I mean, they tell you some stuff that you probably shouldn't know, but as an auditor you should know. But like, you know, they just tell you things and that's the thing is like you and isn't just a waste of time, like he said. I mean, this is the only time that you really have. but it's also a developing a muscle that gives you a skillset that you bring to work. And if you leave those out, well then you're not bringing all of who you are and you're also then completely forgettable because you're sitting in a chair that someone else sat in and when you leave, someone else is gonna sit in your chair and do your job. Maybe even better. I mean, woo, that hurts. but what's not replaceable is the technical skills with the personality and the hobbies and the passions and all those other dimensions of, of that's you bring the human out from the behind the job title. That's, that's permanent.

Joe Pope:

In, in a space professional services where differentiation is extremely difficult. You were poking fun already at the CPAs who all basically just say the same things because we're your trusted advisor became their, the solution. Right. Uh,

John Garrett:

even get me going on that. Oh my gosh. There's no trust because you're not showing people who you really are. Just because you have all the answers. That's not trust. that's chat. GPT ai fakeness. It's artificial intel. It's artificial, it's in the name. I mean, it's right there, but developing trust is being human and, and creating that human connection. No one calls themselves trusted advisors except for you. It's like giving yourself your own nickname in high school. And that doesn't work like that just gets you stuck in the locker.

Austin McNair:

John, you just dropped a big buzzword, uh, with ai. Uh, Joe, you wanna, you wanna introduce our next one?

Joe Pope:

we, we do research John, annually, and we ask questions to organizations and the ones that are growing faster than their peers. We try to hone in on what's the biggest issues, right? what's really the things that they're paying attention to, that way others can learn, right? and mirror and make changes and so forth. AI was the number one business challenge, cross professional service this year, which makes a ton of sense. How is it gonna get incorporated specifically into workflows? And Gary v being a guy who knows how to influence is all over the top of something that people are typing into searches and, and so forth. But marketers, business leaders, they're concerned. is AI going to take your job or your team's job? Or things along those lines. Uh, how do we move forward in a world where, in that circumstance where these folks may not be here, uh, how are we gonna encourage our teams to still want to learn and bring their personalities and things along those lines? Uh, and, and why don't we listen to what Gary's gotta say on that?

John Garrett:

Yeah, I mean, he's absolutely right. that we will default to fear. for sure. Uh, everything's scary. I would imagine the same thing happened when computers came out and Excel was there and accountants had to move away from green bar paper. Uh, imagine when the calculator came out and the abacus had to go away. so if you look at AI as a tool, that you can use, then that's great. you're still in charge. The human still has to put the input in and the human still has to decipher what comes out. So you can't just let it run and then just autopilot in and out'cause that's gonna be garbage, but. the InBetween things, you know, some of the tasks and, and it can allow you to fail because you can fail super fast. Um, you know, type of thing. And so then, uh, so I, I use it as kind of like a smart best friend. Like, Hey, let's chat this out.

Joe Pope:

John, for a marketing leader, what would you say is the most practical first step to start bringing out that human plus technical combo in, in someone's own firm?

John Garrett:

Yeah. I think on the bio page of your organization. and if people push back on that, make it at the bottom, whatever. But I've seen organizations where it, it's really cool. Like It'll have like the team and then when you mouse over the person, it flips around to them at a concert. It's like, this is their headshot and then that's them at their concert. Like, so it's, it's almost like you get to see both sides right there and then in the bio it's, when you know, she's not, you know, da da da da, she's riding horses, you know, or whatever it is, and also too, like we don't need eight paragraphs of. All the work stuff. you're good at your job, we get it. It's almost like the more bio you need, the more you're trying to convince yourself that you're even good at your job. let alone the people looking at it, which no one's doing. Um, and, and they're not reading all of that. They're not. Um, I always go to the very bottom'cause I'm like, well, who are you? Like what lights you up? See what happens when clients are like, Hey, so I saw in your bio you ride horses like me too. That's cool. What kind of horse? no one's gonna not choose you because you ride horses. That's crazy. I would say that that would be a good first step and also make sure it goes vertical. That's super important. Oftentimes like the partner group is like, well, we all know each other. I'm like, yeah, but does the staff person know? Does the manager know? And so that's important too. So, uh, I dunno, but I'm also open to ideas if you guys have seen things as well that are like, oh, I mean, that's a good first step. The about us page too Ho Yeah. We do audit, tax and advisory work. That's one sentence and then it's paragraphs of the charity work or the community work or the other things that we do. That's pictures and paragraphs. That's the about us.

Austin McNair:

We, uh, I mean we're big subscribers to this idea of like the visible expert, like, so, I mean, hinge, we're always encouraging our clients, we're always talking to, you know, on webinars and on podcasts about like, getting your people out there more. And I think that, um, you know, what aligns so well with what you're saying is that, you know, the, for any expert to put themselves out there more, they're gonna have to bring some of that personality. It can't just be the technical skills that the personal stuff is going to kind of fold in at some point, even if it's limited to just the way that you convey inf information,

John Garrett:

Yeah.

Austin McNair:

like a, a technical engineer and you're very focused on like the details. I mean. Part of that will, will be reflected in like kind of the things that you're doing outside of the office as well. Um, but like we're, we're big on the visible expert. We're big on companies going and putting their people out there and encouraging them to show like the whole person, not just kind of the, the name of the position. I mean, we, we regularly critique professional services websites where they show, you know, they'll do a couple of things. They'll show just their leadership team. Um, they'll do like

John Garrett:

Yeah.

Austin McNair:

bios, like this is the person, this is what they do. And it's just like, man, you're leaving so much on the table that could convey so much extra information. And we, you know, one thing that we've seen just in our experience in designing websites and our clients using the websites we've designed is they're always blown away by how much activity happening on their website, on the people pages. Like, oh, like once we added the people portfolio and the people directory to our website. We found that our users were going there more than our about Us page. Is that a problem? It's like, no. Those people, you know, your use

John Garrett:

Right.

Austin McNair:

instead of learning about your company, they're learning about the person they just spoke to on the phone.

John Garrett:

Yeah.

Austin McNair:

rechecking you out. And they're going, wait, who is this again? Or they're referencing like, oh, I spoke to them last time, I wanna speak to them again.

John Garrett:

Yeah.

Austin McNair:

so from Hinge perspective, I think we're, we're, we're in in big alignment.

John Garrett:

And I promise you that talent is looking at that as well. Uh, when you're recruiting and when you're college recruiting, uh, I promise you they are. And, uh, freebie, uh, you, if you align someone when they come in for the interview with someone. You know what their and is, and then you match them up to interview with someone who has a similar, and, well, now you have a friend that works here already, uh, not a colleague, but a friend. And that's a deeper level of like, I mean, I spoke at a conference and, uh, in January and after, uh, somebody had to go to a, a, a online meeting with a bunch of interns that were happening in their city. It was an association thing. And an intern said, I'm a music minor. Am I going to have to stop playing the piano to be successful as a CPA? So not only did he think this, the intern, but he, he thought it enough to ask it out loud in public to a group. And that's how like real it is. And this kid is willing to. Give up the thing that lights him up the most, I mean, this is a part of who you are. Like why would you let the core of who you are just die on the vine? I mean, if that goes, then everything else is weaker and doesn't matter.

Austin McNair:

So John, to get people to be themselves at work. I got one more video for you here. This comes from, he, I, I would say like, he's, Kind of like an online comedian. I'm not sure that he does standup comedy or anything like that, but his name is Tom Fell. And I think that his work aligns with kind of this big, boom of online, culture that we've seen. Uh, there were a lot of stories, news stories about this a few years ago about a subreddit called Anti Work and a lot of anti work content about, you know, workers, you know, kind of setting clear boundaries about who they are, what they do, their job, and then not pushing past that. and you know, as a marketer and as people, you know, talking a lot about employee engagement and like healthy work culture, there's definitely some friction between these two ideas. So I wanna show you, this is a fun, this is a pretty entertaining one. Uh, Tom's video and then get your reaction to this one.

Joe Pope:

So

John Garrett:

that's great. That's so good. Yeah. Uh, he's obviously working at the wrong place. Um,

Joe Pope:

do TikTok videos.

John Garrett:

the thing is, imagine if he was in their marketing department, that organization would be on fire right now. I don't even know where he works, but just drop that dude in the marketing department and, but instead what they're gonna do is they're gonna be like, uh, yeah, you gotta, you gotta just cut your TikTok account and you gotta stop doing that. And, and here's what's gonna happen. That dude's gonna quit. immediately I hope, where like, I hope HR brings him in and says, Hey, you can't, oh really? Well, I also can't work here anymore by, because it's, it's, it's alarming to me where companies have the audacity and the arrogance to think. That you are gonna choose the company. Are you drunk? Like are you serious? Like, no. Like I, I was doing these way before you and I'm gonna be doing'em after. Like I don't, the logo on my fleece is what's drawing me in here. No, I don't care. Uh, I'm gonna go do the thing that lights me up, but I'm gonna find a place that allows me to do that thing and also contribute to work. Um, but if you are a people-centric leader and you know this about this guy and you're like, Hey, maybe accounts payable's probably not your job. You should be over in marketing and we're about ready to go on fire and that's what you do. Because that, that guy would be like, oh yeah, let's do that. And then he would be excited about that that's probably even revenue producing for that dude. So, uh, I'm just jealous of his mustache, but whatever, um, you know, it, it would take me like nine months to get it, even half of that. Um, so good for him.

Joe Pope:

Yeah, I tend to agree. One of the nuggets in there, uh, he talked about the hidden skills being used without pay. how would you say sharing your and actually protects you rather than exploits you.

John Garrett:

I think that these hidden talents you have anyway, so that's part of the job. I mean, and also leaders hired all of you, not just the work part of you. And nurture all of those parts. there's, there's one, organization I talk about in the book where, they do a raffle thing every quarter and somebody's like, it's, it's like, uh, their dream vacation and they provide up to a certain dollar amount, like a good dollar amount or a dream thing, kind of a, it's not a Make-A-Wish, but kind of like that idea. And one person grew up in, and they, the, in the restaurant, their grandparents had a restaurant or something like that, and then they wanted to go to chef school. So the firm, he, he won. So the firm bought him an amazing set of knives and sent him to a chef training for a week. thing is, is though, you have to come back and tell us about. The thing you did and why that? Um, we need pictures. We need to Why was this your, your dream thing? you know, one, one other person there, her husband was a firefighter. They wanted to go to the nine 11 memorial. you know, and why that mattered and all of this, and, and, and so, uh, so, but they also have a break room. And that dude makes things all the time now using his chef training to make things in the break room. And, and that's, not being exploited, that's allowing you to flourish. That's allowing your soul to sing, through, that's allowing you to breathe in happy. allowing you to, to just be fully activated. So it's, it's not really being exploited. it's you bringing some muscle behind your technical skills. that's your magic. Um, and so it's. If you think it's being exploited, or if you think you should be paid more because of something, well then be better at the work and then get promoted or carve yourself out a whole new role that only you can live in, because I'm the only odds shaped piece that fits in this puzzle. and so, you know, I, I think that people, people that get fear, of like, people are gonna use this against me. Um, this is gonna be, you know, like, uh, uh, you know, people are gonna use it to manipulate me or whatever. It's like, well then just don't work there. Just leave. I mean, get a new job. Uh, there are plenty of places like Hinge and other organizations that care about you as humans. I mean, I could just tell from the examples that you guys have shared. Um, you know, so, so find those places. There's enough of them out there now that, you know, when I started it was just shut your mouth and be glad you have a job. And nowadays it's. Leaders are like, oh, thank God you came back from lunch. I was worried. Um, you know, type of thing. Um, so, uh, you know, and, and that's how it has to be, uh, you know, from leaders' perspectives is, you know, people first, uh, clients, uh, you know, not first. Um, really, I mean, it's, it is just true. Uh, and it it that I'm not saying to abandon them and, and give up on clients. It's just, Hey, if I have to choose between a client and my people, I'm picking my people every time, every single time.

Austin McNair:

Well, John, we, we love your message. Um, we love, you know, kind of your perspectives on, on this. It wasn't, we didn't identify anything too toxic within here. You you had some good takes in here. This is, this is a, I think a pretty, uh, well-rounded good conversation. Some good and some bad from all of them.

John Garrett:

No, I thought it was great. Uh, so, so I loved it. It was super, super fun to be a part of this. And thanks for inviting me.

Austin McNair:

Yeah. John, where can people learn more about you, um, and, and kind of get in touch with you?

John Garrett:

Yeah, I mean, what's your, and.com is the podcast and the book, uh, if you want more of the speaking and, and the, you know, the outsourced chief culture officer kind of work and one-to-one coaching stuff that I do. That's the john garrett.com, but it all connects. So, uh, so yeah, looking forward to connecting to people on socials and the LinkedIn and all the things.

Austin McNair:

right, John. Well thank you so much and uh, we'll keep in touch.

John Garrett:

you.

Joe Pope:

It.

Mary Blanche:

All right guys. Do you ever feel like you're stuck in an endless loop of emails pings and back-to-back meetings with zero time to actually think, well, Microsoft has just dropped a work lab report that puts numbers to that feeling. A hundred plus emails, chats and meetings, hijacking your most productive work hours. They're calling it the infinite workday. Frankly, it's burning people out. So begs the question, what, what is the solve? Is it ai? Is it redesigning how teams collaborate together? Now, I'm curious to hear y'all's take on this. So what do, what do we think needs to change for marketing teams to to really be able to take back control of their time?

Austin McNair:

Well, I guess to your first question, do we feel it? I'd say yes. I think everybody feels it right now. Um, and I, I'd say Hinge is no exception, right? We work with, a lot of clients with, you know, big demands, compliment complicated projects. at Hinge we're running our own marketing system and marketing program as well. So there's just a lot of moving pieces, a lot of things happening, and I, I, I think one problem too. There's like a lot of places where information is, being shared, right? So there's email, there's chat, there's tools like Monday, there's, um, I I, it just feels like there's a lot of places and then you kind of bring all of those onto your cellular device as well, and it's just like compounded, right? Joe? I, I mean, do you feel the same way and you're kind of into the table?

Joe Pope:

It is communication overload. Frankly, it's, and Mary Blanc and the Reed talked about the a hundred plus emails. This, this report said that the average worker is getting 117 emails and 153 teams messages. There's your Microsoft branding, but we'll just say at 153, chats, slacks, whatever it might be, and. Between all of that, it's a fragmented reality of every few minutes you've got a meeting, an email, a notification, something just popping up to put your brain in a different place than where frankly, sometimes it needs to be. So I think what ends up happening is people just naturally start to divide up that day to keep their brains sane. So I think one thing, like for example, that I do is if I've got a. Call that doesn't require me to be on Zoom or teams, or you name the video application, uh, where I can just kind of dial into it and it's in the middle of the day. I'm going for a walk. I take those calls on the move, take my two dogs for a walk, try to get two miles in, uh, nice, hilly area. So it's like we, I think we've inherently, especially people that have some amount of flexibility in how they work or where they work. We've started to build in the breaks, if you will, which extends the day because you still got a boatload of work to do. I think it also really, it, it's, it's how you work well with your team. Like who are your team members and how can you best work with them. I know one thing for me, the back to back meeting fatigue, I mean, that will really get to me, especially the way I work. I, I'm a. A morning person. And so I do my best thinking time and my best actual doing of the things in the morning. So when I have a, a week where I have a bunch of morning meetings back to back, and then I'm getting to the afternoon, I mean, that's tough, right? So I think when you are able to have that open communication with your team about working styles and, and how people work together, you can really, you can really help to eliminate some of that meeting fatigue and finding a way that that works well for you.

Austin McNair:

I agree with that. And I would say another kind of muscle I've been flexing recently is just saying no, like, you know, maybe you're, maybe you are added to like a call where there's already, a hefty representation of. People on your team or, you know, maybe it's, something that could be kind of kicked down the road like a week. You know, I think earlier in my career I was kind of, I, I, I wouldn't speak up and say like, Hey, like. This isn't the right priority for right now. I would kind of just lean on, maybe it's a project manager or maybe it's, you know, the director of a project or an initiative. but now, and I think, you know, this works really well at Hinge'cause we have a lot of trust together. But, you know, if you have a clear sense of like what priorities, need to be focused on speaking up and saying like. Hey, let's move this. But, you know, coming with a proposal, right? Like, I understand this is a priority. I understand that this does not need to be like ignored, but at the moment there's already a lot happening. and I'll do that like, and be like you said, like sometimes I'll see like. In between like this nice, beautiful two hour gap during the day where I don't have any meetings and there's just like a 15 minute meeting put on my calendar or a 30 minute meeting. Sometimes I'll ask if that can slide around because I need those bigger working spaces to actually do the work. Uh, and so I, you know, I think one muscle people can. Flex is, you know, speaking up, understanding the priorities and trying to kind of, communicate that, it's actually in everyone's interest too. Make the move and making a case for why. I think a lot about how marketers should be thinking about this, because I think marketers sometimes are ones that are adding a lot of demand to people's plates. You know, I'm thinking about like an accounting firm. Where, where during busy season, you know, everyone is cranking super long hours. Um, but that doesn't mean that the demands for marketing your business are just going away, right? Maybe you have to write some blog posts or get some new videos up, or you've, you know, you're overhauling your career section. You need to get some stuff from people and. I, I think marketers, we have a special responsibility that when we are interfacing with people who are, um, very client facing and very billable or, you know, have a lot of demands for on the business development side that we have to make. Our asks very clear. Just like in good marketing, right? Very simple ask and we will have to have front loaded the work and come prepared, right? Um, I can say, I can tell you from my experience and maybe even mistakes I've made in the past. Um, nothing will frustrate your team more than you showing up and just kind of opening some, opening up a meeting or opening up a conversation for like a big brainstorming session. And, and people will feel like my time is being wasted right now. I need to be working on these like high priority client projects. But now the marketing team is asking for a brainstorming session. I think marketers need to, especially right now, be very sensitive to the demands people are facing. You know, the stuff outlined in the report mb and make things as easy as possible. Um, for the, for the team members that you're working with, what do you guys think about that

Joe Pope:

Yeah, I think, I think one of, uh, what our, our project managers at Hinge are one thing that they're, they're so good at that really speaks to what you were just saying off. In is, um, you know, they will not only have an agenda in the calendar invite for like, this is what we're gonna cover. It's like, Hey, here's the information and I, I expect that you'll have reviewed this and come prepared to the meeting. So I think being able to have that, that prep work and that time and advance of a meeting, you know, then you're able to make the most of that time. And then the output is, um. Is what is intended to be.'cause it is, it's like when you're in these back to back meetings and then you, you know, you just, you just show up to a meeting. It's, it's not, um, it's not productive in the way it's intended to. Yeah, that's right. I mean, and it was unsurprising to see that Microsoft was pushing their AI agenda Yeah. In this report. Right. But I mean, reality is ai, as we've discussed numerous times on this show, is here to stay and how that can also play a role in. Breaking up meeting fatigue and a variety of other elements. A lot of times now you, if you don't join a me, sorry, if you join a meeting and you don't see one of these copilots or note takers or whatever it might be you. It's surprising, frankly, because. Nowadays, people can very much engage in this conversation, much unlike what we're doing in this podcast, but on their meetings with their colleagues or with their clients and things along those lines, and not necessarily have to focus on taking those notes or sending six other chats at the same time, leaning into some of these different tools. So it's, it's not, it's not surprising, right? And there are ways that you can leverage tools to help. Avoid the burnout feel. I think the report referenced one in three employees feel like their pace of work is unsustainable. Mm-hmm. You know, I think we're in an anxious world nowadays, right? You hear about it all the time. Uh, and so yeah, there's some solutions out there and, and some of it also comes down to what we talked about with John earlier, uh, the idea of, hey, how do we, how do we really kind of co about our life and when it comes to a personal life and a professional life? So it's, it, this is a great topic. It ties really well into his, his bit as well.

Austin McNair:

One thing I'll add, um. That I, that I've been thinking about on the topic of the AI tools and stuff is there's a lot of focus on the efficiency aspect of it, and one of the results of efficiency, right, is increased velocity. Velocity, right? We're doing things faster and, but as you just mentioned, Joe. The speed at which we're doing things is actually one of the things that's stressing us out the most. So there's a real dilemma here that I think we're starting to grapple with in terms of like, okay, even AI tools, you know, being presented and, and productized and marketed to us by Microsoft as being kind of this savior. I think it's actually still gonna be kind of one of the things that's stressing us out, because now. Everyone's expectations are, well just use AI'cause you can do it faster. Um, and so now everyone's expectation floor has re you know, risen for the, you know, what the work is and how much time you have to do it. Um, so I think we just need to be sensitive to that. And again, as marketers, I think, um, making sure that. In everything that you do, you're being intentional, that you're focusing on quality. And don't get too wrapped up on the speed and efficiency thing. If you, if it's gonna come at a, a heavy kind of personal cost, right? You're gonna stress everybody out. Um, you need to be mindful of those and it needs to be kind of in your calculus of, uh, your strategy. Like, is this worth it? Is the time it's gonna take gonna be worth it? And have I fully done everything on my end to be prepared and to make sure that the asks I'm making are gonna be, um, you know, worth the effort I'm asking from others. Um, so I don't know. I, it's something else I'm thinking about. AI is gonna make things easier, but it's also kind of fueling the stress a little bit too.

Joe Pope:

Great topic. I think that this really resonates across the board, uh, interesting episode. I know you teed it up that way in the beginning, Austin. Uh, and I think that there's still a lot of great tie-ins here for marketers, brand experts and so forth in how we as a modern workforce take on our day-to-day. Uh, so I, I really enjoyed this one. Uh, hopefully we can keep some of these more interesting topics going.

Austin McNair:

Yeah, well said Joe and, and mb great topic for the Pivotal story this week. Um, on behalf of Joe, Mary Blanche, myself, the whole team here at Hinge been another episode of Spiraling Up. Make sure you hit the like. Subscribe button. If you're on YouTube or if you are listening to us on Spotify, apple Podcasts, or any of those platforms, leave us a review. We would love a review. It helps, uh, with the algorithm. It helps get this podcast out there and if you're finding you know, that you want to hear about a certain topic, you can always email us at podcast@hingemarketing.com. Send us your comments, questions, topic ideas. Guest suggestions. We're open to hearing from it. We want to get as much feedback on this podcast as possible. Thank you everybody, and we will see you on the next one.