Spiraling Up — Marketing For Professional Services

Buy or Sell: The Case for Building B2B Relationships, with Dr. Ryan O’Sullivan

• Hinge • Season 1 • Episode 15

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Buy or Sell? Relationships are the #1 asset to your organization.

In this episode of Spiraling Up, Austin, Joe, and Mary-Blanche sit down with Dr. Ryan O'Sullivan, Global Account Manager at Introhive for a game of ‘Buy or Sell?’ This fun conversation centers on the importance of building stronger business relationships. 

Then, the gang cuts through the GEO vs. SEO hype in this week’s Pivotal Story inspired by a post by Jeremy Moser.

CHAPTERS:
00:00 Welcome
04:26 Dr. Ryan O’Sullivan
08:29 Gameshow - Buy or Sell?
10:50 Buy or Sell #1
14:35 Buy or Sell #2
20:54 Buy or Sell #3
24:36 Buy or Sell #4
31:49 Buy or Sell #5
35:38 Buy or Sell #6
39:42 Buy or Sell #7
44:28 Buy or Sell #8
48:52 Pivotal Story

Connect with Ryan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryan-osullivan-uk/
Visit IntroHive: https://www.introhive.com/

Austin Mcnair:

In today's episode of Spiraling Up, we're speaking with researcher and keynote speaker Dr. Ryan O'Sullivan about the power of building stronger business relationships, and then is the hype around GEO versus SEO. Nothing more than just hype. Our team's gonna discuss. Welcome, everyone. This is spiraling up with Hinge. Welcome everyone to spiraling up the podcast for professional services marketers and business leaders. My name is Austin McNair, and as always, I am joined by my colleagues and co-hosts, Mary Blanche Kramer.

Mary Blanche:

Greetings and salutations Austin.

Austin Mcnair:

Greetings and Salutations, and Joe Pope. What's up Joe?

Joe Pope:

I officially rose the desk today so I could really hit the dancing intro piece that's in our show notes.

Austin Mcnair:

Absolutely. Yeah, the energy is great. Today we've got a great guest who we're gonna be speaking with, Dr. Ryan O'Sullivan. I wanna say hey to everybody who is joining us again for another episode of Spiraling Up. As always, we want to thank you for listening to the podcast. This is a new podcast. We're just getting started. Please make sure you. Like the video, subscribe to our YouTube channel, and if you are listening on an audio platform, go and leave us a review guys. I actually have some sad news. Right now, at the moment, we only have one review, and I think it's on Apple. We have zero on Spotify. We only have one on Apple. So if you're listening, please leave us a review. If you've liked the podcast, if you've enjoyed any of our episodes, uh, send, leave us a review. Tell us what you like. Tell us what your favorite episode WA was. Tell us which one of us you like more. Is it Mary Blanche? Is it Joe? Is it me? Let us know. Just leave us a review. It's gonna help the, uh, podcast a lot as we continue to grow. Invite on new guests. What's happening, guys?

Joe Pope:

I have a solution to our review problem.

Austin Mcnair:

Oh yeah. What's that,

Joe Pope:

Uh, we just need Taylor Swift to join the podcast. She's doing podcasts now. It's gonna be an easy solution. She joins the podcast. Millions of views.

Austin Mcnair:

Joe? Tell us. Tell us what's going on with that. Like, I'm excited because football season is here, but it seems like you've been more excited this week because of a new Taylor Swift album announcement.

Joe Pope:

correct. She announced it, uh, on her boyfriend and, uh, his brother. It's podcast Travis and Jason Kelsey, new Taylor Swift album. The Life of Life of a Showgirl. Did I botch that? I think it is. It's the life of a Showgirl, right?

Austin Mcnair:

And what do we think about that as a, as a marketing play? I mean, she's got a huge audience. She's released tons of albums. Joe, where do you rate this on a scale of, you know, one to 10 in terms of her album releases?

Joe Pope:

I think it's a perfect point to make in the idea of relationship growth. So the. Action of Taylor and, Travis Kelsey's relationship. They've been using it to raise the profile of everyone around them. I know we're gonna talk with, uh, Dr. Ryan Oel today, and he talks all about relationships. so it's a, it's a nice tie in. I mean, you, I, now we've got, uh, Jason Kelsey's wife has a podcast. The mom is all over commercials. you know, we can't get enough Taylor Swift on tv. Um, I think she made a joke about that in the intro of the podcast about. That's what male sports fans want is more Taylor Swift on their screens. So it's, uh, I, I do think it really does make a good tie in though to the relationship piece,

Mary Blanche:

Did she say when it, when it's being released?

Joe Pope:

the album itself.

Mary Blanche:

Yeah. Or just that there was one.

Joe Pope:

she did say, and I don't have the date up in front of me, so I guess I'm a terrible swifty.

Austin Mcnair:

Well, while you're excited for Taylor Swift, Mary Blanche and I are just excited that football's back and we'll be watching, uh, watching our favorite teams go and setting up hopefully an office fantasy League one that traditionally.

Mary Blanche:

what I.

Austin Mcnair:

Sorry.

Mary Blanche:

I said that's what I'm most excited about, less watching of the football, more of the, uh, just beating both of you again this year and,

Austin Mcnair:

Yeah. You're only excited about fantasy football because somehow some way you always find a way to win, uh, the league. So, well, I don't wanna delay much further. We've got a great guest here. He's waiting for us. Let's turn now to our, really, I, I, I think it's gonna be really insightful. Interview with Dr. Ryan O. Sullivan. All right, well, we are honored to welcome today's guest, Dr. Ryan O'Sullivan. Ryan has spent over 20 years researching and evangelizing a relationship. First approach to growing revenue. Ryan spent seven years researching his topic for his PhD. He's a regular speaker on. This subject at industry events and guest lectures at universities. He is a global account manager for Intro Hive, a company that provides relationship mapping software. Ryan has recently published a book on how to identify and map and develop key relationships. Dr. Ryan, welcome to Spiraling Up.

Ryan O'Sullivan:

My pleasure. Thanks for, thanks for welcoming me. I'm look, really looking forward to today.

Joe Pope:

Well, I have to say, uh, Dr. Ryan, you interrupted my typical summer reading, which I, this year is rereading the Harry Potter book series with your book. Building B2B relationships. Uh, I will say it's a welcome breakup. I, you know, I'll get back to the half plug Prince, uh, next week. But I've really enjoyed diving into a topic that I think a lot of times marketers, you, you always think so global, right? So, and, and so big idea and, and some of the concepts though certainly borrows from some bigger ideas. But this relationship mapping, right? I mean, there's this concept of just bringing people together and understanding a lot. To reflect on, and I think we're gonna have a great time today talking through some of these key topics for the audience.

Ryan O'Sullivan:

Great. And yeah, thanks for the honor with, uh, the Dr. Ryan, but we can just stick to playing old Ryan if that's okay with you. I was chatting to a, a good friend of mine, uh, recently and we, we were talking about the doctor and he said, lemme just get this straight. What type of doctor are you? Are you like Dr. Phil, Dr. Joe, Joe Biden? Are you like Dr. Dre? So I said out of the three, I'm closer to Dr. Jill Biden. So it's, it's not a medical doctor, it is a real, uh, PhD, but, uh, not, I'm not able to, uh, to save, save anybody on an airplane. If they says there a doctor on board, I'll try, but I'm not sure I'll help.

Mary Blanche:

Okay, well then Ryan, um, you know, at Hinge we we're big believers in using research to guide our thought leadership content. So could you tell the audience a little bit more about the research that you've done to guide your thinking?

Ryan O'Sullivan:

So having spent a career in sales, uh, it's very common for salespeople or client facing people in general to to have very rose tinted glasses about the quality of the relationships that they have. So I was no different to that. I guess as, as going through that, that process of learning and, and, uh, understanding, uh, how relationships are formed. when I was at Infosys, that's a big, large, uh, IT services firm, so spent eight and a half years there. That's where I really honed this, passion, I guess of, and curiosity around relationships. So, uh, I was managing different parts of the business over there, but really just trying to double click into what is. A high quality relationship and what are the, the different factors that, that contribute to that. And that was the, the genesis of my, my doctorate research. And that just set me off on, on the, career trajectory I'm on today. I suppose that that knowledge helped me as part of my, my general, general role in, in a client facing role. But it led me to Intra Hive, which is a, uh, a software that helps to map and measure the quality of relationships. So. I'm there at the moment, and in, in the meantime, I've written the book, which we already discussed. So, uh, just a really a real passion and, and desire to understand what relationships are in at their heart. And, and my, my wife always, uh, raises an, an eyebrow when I'm described as a relationship expert, but I, I always have to say that it's business relationships and then she understands. So.

Austin Mcnair:

Well, Ryan, we're, we're really excited to dive into today's segment. We're gonna play a little game of buy or sell, uh, today in our call. You know, you're, these relationships that you talk, talk about the ones that are central in your book, like you said, business relationships, and a lot of them are about, you know, that, that moment of when we, as you know. People who are trying to develop business, trying to grow our businesses, we're always thinking about these relationships and really thinking in terms of like, how do I maximize them? How do I keep developing and growing them? And you, you lay out beautifully in the book, kind of the role that relationships play in business development and why they're so essential. But you know, a lot of people have. Other kinds of perspectives. And a lot of marketing people, especially on my side of the table, we like to bring other things to the table and say, no, no, you know, relationships are great, but like let's, you know, build the brand, let's build the marketing and stuff like that. So today we wanted to present you with three scenarios, kind of three levels of, different moments of the relationship or different kinds of relationships. And just ask a few statements, you know, would you buy this or would you sell them. And basically, do you agree with it or. Do you not agree with it? How's that sound?

Ryan O'Sullivan:

Sounds great, and I think, you know, I've done so many of these podcasts now over the years and, uh. This is a really fresh, inventive way of doing things and obviously part of my preparation, I was looking at your previous guests and the previous podcast, and you always come up with a, a different way to, to engage the guests. So, you know, kudos for that.

Austin Mcnair:

We appreciate it. So, Ryan, our our first. Our first scenario is about the first contact and first impressions. I think this was, this was foundational and kind of gets to the heart of the work and what you wrote about in your book. you know, like I mentioned, in, in especially in the marketing world, we live in like this world of automated emails, LinkedIn messages, and there's always a pressure that I think marketers have and salespeople. To go out and hunt for new business. but your research, the core premise was, you know that there's a lot more, there's a, there's a more powerful or smarter way to, to play this game. So we've got some buy or sell questions here, and it's really challenging that conventional spray and pray wisdom, with a relationship first strategy, which you talk about. So, Ryan, first one on the list here, buy or sell in today's market. A perfectly crafted cold email is still more effective than maybe leveraging a tenuous existing relationship.

Ryan O'Sullivan:

I'd say sell, I think even More so now than ever. You've got, like we just discussed, the, the automated messages, whether you per individually, personally crafted, or whether it's done with support from, uh, ai. Everybody is being hit with cold outreach and I, I think people just aren't getting to even read it Nowadays. You might have a catchy, uh, a catchy sub, title, but then people have now got wise to the ones that trick you into opening the messages as well. So tenuous depends how tenuous, I guess the point would be, are they engaging with you? What's the context? I think there's obviously, there's a context question to a lot of these things, but I would always try to leverage a relationship first and whether that individual is willing, to introduce you like as a warm introduction is one thing.'cause that might, not necessarily feel comfortable doing that, but at least they will give you some, what I call, uh. Intelligence. So they're going to help you understand a bit about the organization, help you understand a bit about the individual who you may be trying to reach out to, maybe be able to introduce you to some other people that might be better placed to. to do that introduction. So I think for, for all of those reasons, that would be the, the, the pathway I would take. And I think, to me, when the request comes on the other side, if you think about the other side of, of, of the, of the equation here, if it's coming from someone who they recognize versus someone, someone, an email coming in cold. That's always gonna have the difference as well. So you imagine if someone is, even on LinkedIn, if somebody reaches out to me or I recognize the name, I'm always going to read the message. So. You, you've got a much higher probability that they are going to read what is shared. So I think there's a lot more choreographing you need to do around, that process of who is the person who you've identified it's a tenuous relationship with you, or is it tenuous relationship with the person you want an introduction to or both. So figure that dynamic out. Figure out what they can provide as intelligence and then craft something which is, which is useful if you've got a strong relationship with them, the person you're asking for help, but they have a tenuous relationship with the, the person you're trying to contact. That's a slightly different strategy in the messaging as well. So it might be a bit more of a, a pitch because you might not have much more time than that, but you can still craft it in a clever way.

Joe Pope:

Ryan, your point about LinkedIn specifically, and, uh, I I, I, I think we all get hit with how many cold outreach in messages in LinkedIn every single day, but. If I think I even slightly recognize the name in my inbox, at a minimum I'm gonna read the message. And if we're just talking about trying to make the connection, if you're already overcoming the bias of just being hit marked spam, delete, whatever it is to showing up, your chances are monumentally increased because otherwise it was zero. If they're just gonna delete it, you're never gonna see it.

Ryan O'Sullivan:

And you talk about the deleting thing as a funny story. My colleague was joking about today, I don't delete any messages, and she was shocked to see I've got 34,000 unread emails in my mailbox

Joe Pope:

You are not a male zero inbox guy.

Ryan O'Sullivan:

I don't even waste time deleting them. I just ignore them. So.

Austin Mcnair:

Well, I wanna, I wanna move on to, kind, kind of building on that point. So, Ryan, buy or sell the value of your relationship network is a tangible asset that can be quantified just like financial or academic capital.

Ryan O'Sullivan:

Oh, well that's definitely a buy, strong buy for me. So if you think about capital in, in the true sense of the word, you know, we understand financial capital, we understand, what that means, what have you got in your bank account, what equity in your house, all of these types of things. That's the simplest one to understand. And then you think about your maybe professional capital if you put it like that. So your work experience. Where have you worked? What skills have you got? Uh, what are you bringing to the table that is probably most strongly going to get you in a, in a position career? If you're talking professionally, uh, that would what is most important and you've got your academic capital, if you think about it like that. But I think at a certain level, certainly in, in, in the professional world, your network is an asset that, is so valuable because if you're going into a role and you are even expected to bring some type of network to the table, depending on the type of role you have, which is fine and I think that is almost implicit, but if we just take a step back and think about. How you can leverage a network and it's linked to your first question in some ways because it doesn't matter what you want to do where you want to go or who you want to be. If you can access relationships that can give you some intelligence again and some insights and guidance that's worth its weighting gold more, you know, even more than what chat GPT can give you nowadays or whatever else. Because if you talk to someone on a human level. You, you build a relationship with them, maybe through a tenuous relationship you have. Maybe you're just a, a student who wants to get a, an internship or something like that. You know, if you start to think about who, where did I want to work? what type of company? What type of profile, who can I talk to? And you leverage that network, it bubbles up, and the universe sort of orientates itself around helping you. If you know what you're looking for. And then those types of conversations can lead to, uh, insights and support in, in helping you fulfill your dreams. And I think a lot of people, overlook that we're all humans. And I think that is now going to be. Even more prevalent. So we, we, we are missing this human connection, but it's, it's easier to have these relationships like we've never met, but I feel like we know you through the preparation and the other stuff. So we've got this virtual world where we can build relationships with literally anyone, anyone around the world. So I think that network is such a powerful, thing to have. And to leverage, whether it's for your own personal gain or whether it's to help someone else or whether it's professionally and, and I think when you're going into a job, this is. if you're applying for a role or you know, you're, you're looking for to progress your career and you're having a conversation, trying to pitch yourself in some form or fashion, I would always consider that as well as an asset that you're bringing to the table in those conversations. So always think about your network and the relationships you have and, and how that can help you and, and others. Obviously, it's not to be so selfish that how can someone help you? It doesn't need to be a, a two-way street.

Mary Blanche:

Yeah, Ryan, so you talked about a couple different categories there of background. So you know, your, your resume, your academic background, and then speaking about, um, the networking piece, what would you say to someone that you know. They have a great academic background. They've, they've got a great resume, but the idea of really expanding on and leveraging their network feels almost daunting for them. where's a good place to, to start?

Ryan O'Sullivan:

I think there is this also misconception, uh, around maybe what it, what it takes to build relationships and what, what are trusted relationships. So that's obviously part of my research as, as we talked about. And there's this cliche of the, the bombastic confident person that that always has an answer for, for every question. And very slick. And you know, that's great. And you see, you know, when you

Joe Pope:

I've never been accused of that. Ryan.

Austin Mcnair:

We're all looking at Joe right

Mary Blanche:

Yeah.

Ryan O'Sullivan:

But when you, you see that portrayed on films and, you know, in, in, in that type of environment. But the, the reality is when you, the introverts have a great opportunity to build real relationships, as I'd like to call them, because they're more inquisitive. They are. More likely to ask questions and understand the emotional side of, of what is going on and under the, in the detail. So I think if someone is hesitant, like you're suggesting there Mary Blanche, it might be because they don't feel confident enough to, to explore their network. But I think the question I'd have is, look, what are you looking to achieve? I think that is. Primarily it starts. So whether it's you're going on holiday to Nice, where I live and you, you, you think, well, you know, who can help me with insights and things to do? Who do I know that's there? And, and yeah, you might have a friend of yours, you know, just like coincidence that it's coming here next week. Oh, funnily enough, I just spoke to a guy that lives there. Let me put you in touch with him. So. Then because of our relationship, we would have that conversation and I, I'd, take care of them as best I could with some tips. But whether it's a career path, whether it's some advice or guidance, I think first of all, you need to figure out what are you looking for. Then who can help you? And you will always be surprised how willing people are to help. I think it's in people's general nature to want to help you feel good. Even when you give to the homeless, there's a selfish sense to it that you, you feel like you're doing something nice to someone else and you get a, you get a buzz of adrenaline from that. So all of that, I think to say that, uh. Prioritize on what the objective is and then start talking to people. And I think when you, when you maize this, this, uh, idea of what you want, often, like I said before, the universe can, uh, orientate itself around helping you.

Joe Pope:

Just.

Austin Mcnair:

All right, Ryan, I've got one more on this topic of, you know, first contact, first impressions. Let's say that you finally get that initial meeting with somebody that you know, you want to be talking to them. They're, uh, a prospect or they're a person of interest for you. buy or sell. The number one goal of every initial meeting with a new prospect is to get a second meeting.

Ryan O'Sullivan:

Yeah, buy, I'd say, yeah, strong buy again, that is the priority. And, and how do you do that? It's not about telling them what you have to offer, it's about convincing them you can help them solve their problems or achieve their objectives. That's really what a real relationship is about. And I'll call back to some of the interviews I did for my doctorate. My doctorate research was interviewing CXOs, you know, very, very senior people. Some of these people worked, uh, like CIO at JP Morgan or Amex or bp. of these people were literally had billions of dollars in spend per year. You know, others, hundreds of millions. So they know what it's like to meet someone when someone's meeting them for the first time. When I asked them to describe the best person they've ever worked with from the supplier or vendor side and what made them so special. And we just talked about that. And that was my data set for my, doctorate research. And I looked for patterns there. And what we found is that almost across the board, they never really, understood or acknowledged that this person was trying to sell them anything. The very best of the best. We're only trying to help them solve their problem, understand their business, see around corners, all this stuff. So it's about, you know, it's a cliche again, of the trusted advisor, but, and I've got the book behind me there, the famous book about the, the trust equation. So. We know this stuff. We, we see this stuff a lot, but living it and breathing it is a lot more difficult than it sounds, even though the principles are easy. So if you want to be successful in selling, don't sell. You know, it sounds a bit counterintuitive. You have to serve, you have to understand, you have to put the effort in. Before you even walk in the door for that meeting, you need to have had five meetings with people that know that person, understand their priorities. So when you walk in, it's not a question of, uh, what's keeping you awake at night? And as, as one of those guys I interviewed said, if somebody comes in and asks me that question, I throw them outta my office because they should already know what keeps me awake at night. And they should be coming in to talk about that and what challenges and opportunities they're seeing to solve. Problem. So yeah, I think that's probably the easiest way to do it.

Austin Mcnair:

I love that. All right, Joe, we've got a different scenario here, kind of taking a, taking a turn in a different different direction. What do you got?

Joe Pope:

Yeah. Uh, a direction that is near and dear to the professional services marketer and business development at heart, the RFP. Our dear old friend with occasional benefits For many companies, you know, it's the call to arms. It's the reason to burn the midnight oil. It put together a massive hulking document that drives us all insane. but Ryan, you've got a more provocative take on the RFP. It has come across in the content we've read your book and, and also some other materials. Uh, you've argued that the moment a business receives one. Especially outta the blue, you should act with some caution. You should say, hold on, let's take a second here. There's a good chance it might even be too late. so this round of buy or sell is about separating winnable opportunities from the wasted efforts by looking beyond an RFP document itself. You're up for this one.

Ryan O'Sullivan:

I am. Yeah, let's do it.

Joe Pope:

All right, buy or sell. If an RFP comes in for a company you've never worked with out of the blue, your best move is to ignore it unless you have an existing relationship with a decision maker.

Ryan O'Sullivan:

I would say, yeah, if it's, I would say that's a buy. Yeah, buy that one.

Joe Pope:

so then there's the immediate follow up question. How do you explain that to leadership? Because they might see this and say, I see six figures, seven figures. I think we should go after it. So Ryan, tell me why we need to convince leadership.

Ryan O'Sullivan:

There May I, and I, I will put a caveat there. So like, if it's a decision between buy or sell, my decision is buy. There's a caveat there, Maybe you just ignore it. But if you're talking about leadership, this one's just come in, what are we gonna do? How busy are you? You know, these are the top. If you, if you, if you're, if you're hungry for business, that's, that's fine. If you're very busy, swamped. Have you got the resources to adequately respond? I mean, when I was, I mentioned Infosys before, but that's the same across the industry. For us to respond to an RFP would cost over a million dollars.

Joe Pope:

Yeah.

Ryan O'Sullivan:

how much you would be investing to go through and not win. So, so, and obviously for SAT companies, like where I'm at now with, in Introhive, it's a lot of a smaller investment, but we're a smaller company, so the principle still holds true. Uh, so I guess with AI as well, how easy it is to complete that RFP, but it is not about the process of completing it. It's like, what's the probability of winning? there's a caveat to. what I'm about to say is that the purpose of responding to an RFP is to win the, win the deal. But I guess a, a caveat to that is if it's a company that is specifically in your ICP, maybe you've never worked with them because,

Joe Pope:

There you go.

Ryan O'Sullivan:

so then you've got an opportunity to create some new relationships, to build some relationships, haven't you? Through this, yes. Assuming you're going to fail, but that's just the start of. Uh, future RFPs, maybe you'll fail 2, 3, 4, 5 in a row. But then you're on a path. You've, they've seen your, how you operate, they've seen the quality of your responses. So if you're looking at it more of a long term perspective, strategic perspective to, to crack that must have logo, then there's some, some considerations to say, well let, let's at least give it a go. And I think if on that point as well, what I often talk about is if it does come out of the blue, you would obviously be very, very quickly be able to identify who the key people are. There are some scenarios like maybe. That's a competitor to one of your clients and you've delivered sort of a groundbreaking, innovative solution for their competitor. Somebody moves over to that Untaped account that you haven't got any relationships with yet. They've talked about what you've done, and that's why you've got the RFP land in your inbox. there's a few caveats, as I say, as to all, all of the complexities of it, but it does lead all roles lead back to the relationship. So in the scenario just described, someone might have moved over, mentioned you, or they might have seen what you've done and want to engage you. So then it's a question of doing the analysis on that target account, figuring out has anyone moved from any of your key clients to this, this prospect? Figuring out if they're willing to engage with you as well. If, you can't pick up anyone in particular, you know who the decision makers are likely to be. So engage with'em. do they show some love, willing to engage? If they completely ignore you, then I think that would be the due diligence management would look for to then say, right, fair enough. Maybe we pass on this one.

Joe Pope:

I'm already thinking, Ryan, of the, the top 10 checklist when you receive an RFP blog that you and I can co-write coming out of this because everything you're saying really resonates with me. As the reviewer in chief of any RFPs that we receive, uh, there's always the due diligence piece that needs to happen. So maybe it's not just ignore the RFP, but you need to think to yourself, okay, does this check the right boxes?

Ryan O'Sullivan:

correct Jeff. I'm up for that.

Austin Mcnair:

I love what Ryan is saying too, about just like the relationship building aspect that can be kind of. Part of the opportunity of responding to an RFP Joe, I'm thinking of a story of an RFP that we responded to, that we lost, and it was actually with a person or a group that we had. We had built a pretty decent relationship with them ahead of time. We had actually even helped them. Build the RFP

Joe Pope:

Oh yeah.

Austin Mcnair:

and we, and we thought that that was kind of, you know, oh, if we're helping build the RFP, that's kind of like a lock that we, you know, we're gonna be making the final cut at least. Um, but didn't win it. But what happened on the back end of that is that that team of people, have still remained closer relationships with us. And we've started to get, you know, 3, 4, 5 years down the road. Opportunities and referrals from this group, even though they didn't select us, the value we provided during that process that they went through, they still think very highly of Joe and our team. and I just think that there's a lot to what you're saying, Ryan, about even an RFP, which can feel a little bit more like cold and dry and formal. There's still that relationship building opportunity behind that.

Ryan O'Sullivan:

I think there's a, yeah, again, in the old days, I say old as in pre COVID, you would get a lot more opportunity to meet, ideally, unless it's a government type of, uh, RFP, where they lock a lot of that down. But you would get those chances to have the, have some in initial conversation. I think since the, the, to more of an online, it's a bit more difficult, I think, at least initially in those, in those round, if you say with an RFP or an RFI. So they would be looking more of the, data in the document. But again, if they want you to take this seriously, they will engage with you outside of that process. That is a LIMUS test for me. If they're giving you a bit of time, doesn't need to be all the, the secrets to win under the table. So, but at least they need to show some indication that look. we're engaging with you a bit. We are showing you that we, we like you, we want you to, uh, to take this seriously.

Joe Pope:

Uh, that is on, uh, that checklist I was referencing for our future blog. Uh, it is, will they exchange Minimum a Q and A process, but really a lot of times, will they hop on a zoom? Will they look at us in the face and talk to us and say, this is what this is, this is how we found you. Things along those lines. If there's none of that, it's an instant No, thank you. From, from my perspective.

Ryan O'Sullivan:

another aspect to this is like back to the intelligence gathering component I mentioned, which is, prevalent in all of these scenarios is look who do you know that works there? Not the decision makers, but what's the vibe, what's the competitor landscape? You know, even who used to work there, who is a contact? So then they might be more willing to share even more details than they would if they're actually an employee there. So. that helps with a bit of a dynamic understanding of, the landscape in the organization as well.

Joe Pope:

Okay. I love it. I, I've got another one here coming up that I think is another interesting one. Especially if we think, okay, well this might make it easier for us to respond, but buy or sell. A strong track record of success and a high quality solution that matches the requirements are enough to win an RFP even if there are no internal supporters.

Ryan O'Sullivan:

I would say sell on that one. I don't think you can win a deal because whatever's on paper, on PowerPoint slides, they need to look people in the eye. It depends what type of solution you're dealing with. I mean, look, I'm talking B2B high value. You know, very mission critical type of solutions, and we all go to Amazon or wherever and buy some stuff online without meeting anyone. But, uh, if you're talking about something where there is an element of, critical impact on their business, put it that way in a sort of a broad umbrella term, it, it, it needs to work well for them. to function as an organization, then there has to be trust. There has to be looking someone in the eye and saying, right, I can trust this person'cause it is a people business in the end. And, and no matter, even in the SaaS world, it's, there's a SaaS solution that you are delivering. But I know on the professional services side. Always a person at the end of that dollar of, or a pound or euro of revenue. There's a, there's a relationship on both sides. So I think, it's very unlikely that someone would be willing to go to that level of, of awarding business without having any relationships outta thought.

Joe Pope:

Hinges research would agree with you. In our, we actually have an ongoing initiative called Inside the Buyer's Brain, where we ask these types of questions. And the number one scale tipper, if you will, a deciding factor if you will, uh, was existing relationships. so above things like relevant experience, talented staff, knowledge of the industry.

Ryan O'Sullivan:

well, I'll tell you a funny story. Well, not a funny story, but it's an anecdote from my book. I was talking, uh. As one of my clients is at one of the, uh, the global head of sales enablement at one of the big four. And, you know, we were just chatting. He did an endorsement for the book as well, actually. But through that conversation he was saying, we've done all the analysis of our deals and they, you know, you're talking about billion dollar deals down to tens of millions or what have you. So we've done is that we've done the analysis, we know why we win. It's always because of our relationship. And then he said, and we've done the analysis as well. We know why we lose. It's not because of price or solution, it's because of the relationship and that I just thought that was so profound and it, it is. It's really the bonsai.

Austin Mcnair:

All right. Well. gonna transition us straight into our next scenario here. Mary Blanche, do you wanna introduce this one because it's right on par with what Ryan is talking about?

Mary Blanche:

Yeah, it's a good segue. So this last scenario is gonna be around building trust. Uh, so as we know, every firm wants to be a trusted partner. It is the ultimate goal. but you know, what does that really mean? Is it just a buzzword or is it a tangible competitive advantage? So Ryan, your work identifies three distinct types of B2B relationships, and your doctoral research with Fortune 500 executives has broken down. What constitutes a high quality trusted relationship into science. Uh, so this round is gonna be all about exploring the long game. You know, what does it truly take to build that kind of a deep collaborative trust that can't really easily be replicated by a competitor and how that trust ultimately drives success. So your first buy or sell is gonna be the most important asset an organization has, is its relationship, not its brand.

Ryan O'Sullivan:

I think depends on, depends on the context and you might have a different view here. But if I'm looking at a company today, You talk about the Pareto rule. So you know, 80% of the revenue comes from 20% of their clients. And in the professional services world, I've had clients say to me jokingly, 99% of our revenue comes from 1% of our clients with the long tail of projects. So if you think about the value of the company, it's based on the revenue. And to me, the revenue is linked to those relationships. at the end of. Those services that you're delivering is a person. So I think it's about the relationships that you have that hold those accounts together. Obviously the broader story there. Is that people leave. There's a big attrition across all industries, so it can't be reliant on specific individuals. So I guess the way that that organization brings people in and helps them to manage people, that will be part of the enablement, onboarding, the mindset of the people they hire. So you assume that there's some type of filtering process that goes on to hire the right type of people. That could maybe bubble up to the brand in some sort of abstract way, I guess, talking, as a, as a salesperson. But my immediate, reaction to that would be, uh, the, the relationship is the important aspect when it comes to the value. I can't remember if that was, is that a buyer or a sell on the question? So.

Joe Pope:

You, you're, you are buying relationships as being more important than brands. And I, I, I think the last piece that you said Ryan really resonates with, at least from hinges perspective. in the professional services we define brand strength, if you will. As the intersection of your reputation and visibility if your reputation is as a group that develops relationships, cultivates them over time, delivers excellent service and grows from within, then I, could see a brand built on relationship building is as one that is a strong one.

Ryan O'Sullivan:

Yeah, and I'd maybe have a crossover there with culture, company culture. So you've got that. Is how they organize themselves. And that becomes part of the brand, I guess. And I'm no expert. You're more the experts on the brand side. But yeah, I think they do bleed together there, but it's what culture do you have as an organization and then you hire the right type of people that, that deliver that. And I think you mentioned at the beginning, Joe, about what do you say to the management about. Revenue. And I think there is a question to, to Mary Blanche's point at the beginning is around the beginning of your segment around long term. Because as we may all appreciate the relationships that I have today, I've built over my career and I'll carry them to wherever I go in my career. Back to the, uh, relationship capital point in your network, so. You as an individual are thinking like, this is me, this is my relationship. And obviously in the professional service world, you get people moving around and maybe taking, their black book these, the virtual black book nowadays. So there's an element of thinking long term for you personally, but there's the short term thinking at an organizational level, quarter to quarter. And this is where the two worlds collide. So if you have got a culture of Look, we need to just sell and that pressure. Emanates through you, uh, and the team to the client, and they're feeling this pressure to buy the services, then it's very hard to build a trusted long-term relationship because they'll just put you in the bucket as just another sales. Company or just another individual that just wants to sell us more stuff. So there's a paradox there, which I think I don't have the answer to, I'm afraid. But, uh, there, there's something that is an issue I think that, all companies will face.

Mary Blanche:

Okay, well, I think that's a good segue into our next buy or sell. So moving from a transactional relationship to a trusted integrated one is the single most important objective for a B2B organization.

Ryan O'Sullivan:

yeah, that's a tough one. I'll just. So maybe I'd, I'd err on the sell if I had to choose between the two, because not every client can be a strategic client, and if you're being so definitive, like that's the only way to go, I think in the B2B world, in the, Professional services world, if you're speaking broadly, and you're targeting your ICP properly, you would consider that most of those would be candidates for the toughest strategic, integrated relationship you're looking for. So in that scenario, maybe that is the ultimate. Journey you want to take them on, but not all companies fit into that bracket so broadly and not all, uh, suppliers, would want to target their entire ICP in that way. And, then on the, client side, they might not see you like that. They might not want to engage with you'cause there's an effort from their side as well. To move to a more strategic relationship. So it depends on what you're offering. You might have some great vision of how you want a strategic relationship with this fantastic company, but they're thinking, right, we only want to buy these widgets from you, or A, B, and C. So, you know, that's, that's the relationship level that you're at, unfortunately, even though it might even be your biggest client. You are just a tiny spoke in the wheel for them, so you've got a lot of things to consider. So long way to say sell, if I had to be, if it's a definitive uh, choice.

Joe Pope:

Well, that's part of the fun of the question.

Ryan O'Sullivan:

Yeah.

Austin Mcnair:

I hear what you're saying about qualifying it based off of, you know, who your clients are and what industry you're a part of. earlier you mentioned the big four. this is something that we see a lot happening right now in the accounting, and CPA industry is a lot of firms are sort of doing a repositioning right now, not just in terms of providing CPA services, but also providing advisory. We've had a number of clients even that have rebranded to include advisors or advisory in their name or in the handle of their, their website. do you think that that aligns with kind of. What you speak about often in the book is sort of trying that desire to move from that transactional relationship to a more integrated one. So in some industries, essentially it's imperative, I guess.

Ryan O'Sullivan:

Yeah, I think it is that survival die type of, uh, scenario. So there's there's a great, uh, lady I referenced in my book and she actually did the introduction to chapter nine, Heidi Gardner. So she's a Harvard professor. She spent her career analyzing this specific subject actually around how do you. enable clients to transition them into these high growth accounts? And it's about the number of service lines that you can, that you're, you're, that they're buying from you, should we put it that way? So I think you've got to, to understand what offerings you have and the broader, that seems to be the strategy, this one firm approach. So it doesn't necessarily me need to be like a. PWC or Deloitte, KPMG, everything for everyone. But you may have auxiliary services in your own area of specialty, and then you're trying to build out that specific niche, uh, if you will. So yeah, I think they, you do need to think about what other types of services go with your type of skillset for the type of clients you're working on. So definitely, yeah, that's an important point. And. We all need to grow, don't we? So how are you going to grow? It's either sell more stuff to, to, to, to the same or more clients or sell different stuff to, to the same clients. So, uh, but there's, it's, it's, it's not easy. I think you've got to, you've, it's got to be, uh, it's, it's got, to me, especially if you're in a smaller firm, is, is you've got to have some uniqueness to what you're proposing. And there's so many examples of firms just. Getting big and then buying some other types of air businesses that are not really related to them. And, and it, it failing drastically because your, your, your focus changes and the energy fo ch goes onto these other maybe shiny new things and you lose sight of what you're actually good at. So I think it's for brighter minds than me to determine like individual company strategies, but I think it's, uh, it's certainly something that. That all companies are considering.

Mary Blanche:

I think that's well said. so Brian, we have, we have one last buy or sell for you and. I personally love this one. Uh, so buy or sell trust is built in drops and lost in buckets.

Ryan O'Sullivan:

Yeah, that's definitely a strong, strong buy for me. I mean, we've touched on this a few times, but. there's a phase that I talk about in my book and the doctorate is from not knowing someone to them trusting you. There's this phase that, that I, talked about in the ary. It's called mutual disclosure. So it's when you are, you're first meeting someone and do they consider you just to be, you know, some other person or are they willing to, treat you a bit differently? Are they willing To open up about what they're working on, invest emotionally in the relationship because they believe you can help them with their problems. And, that that phase is the beginning of trust. So There's a three things actually that I talk about in the book. One of them is don't sell, which we've talked about already. And that is very, very important. If they can sense you're trying to sell, you cannot build a trusted relationship with someone because they think you're out for your own personal gain. The second one is a bit more of a difficult one, to comprehend, I guess is the, clash of personalities. So when I did those interviews, people talked about it's very difficult to get on with someone. if personalities clash. And, so it's hard if you, if, if there's a power balance and you are trying to build a relationship with someone and it's not, you can't do anything about the way you behave naturally, but if you are irritating them. Then it's wise for you to understand that. And there's, I talk about it in the book as well, where your listeners can go to YouTube to find out about what I call, uh, what's called, uh, social styles. You can, you can profile someone's personality, and then it gives you a bit of do's and dumps. So if someone's a driver. They are interested in outcomes and benefits. They're not interested in small talk and what do you do at the weekend? So that will irritate them. But I'm a bit more small talk chitchat to get to know someone. But if you're dealing with a driver and you spend five, 10 minutes talking about what you did at the weekend, they will become irritated very quickly and think you're wasting their time. So again, that's important. And the third one is you need to have something of value, which is back to the the original point, which is. What are they working on? What's important? How can you help them? So that comes back to the research that you've done, the intelligence gathering and how you come prepared for that conversation. So if you do those three things together and it works well, you've got a good chance that they'll open up and start to share some of the things that they think are important. And then you're on a pathway to a few, few more drops of, uh, of trust in, in the buckets.

Austin Mcnair:

I love that. Well, Ryan, I, I think I speak on behalf of the whole team here. just preparing for this interview and, and, and getting to speak and listen to you. I'm coming away with kind of a refreshed, uh, vision for how we can build and, and kind of develop better relationships and our business. And I know our listening audience will, will feel similarly. Ryan, where can people follow you or get in touch with you? or intro hive?

Ryan O'Sullivan:

Yeah, so I'm pretty much on LinkedIn. That's, that's where I place my bets if there, if that's the right phrase. But yeah, so contact me on LinkedIn. Happy to connect and continue the conversation. Intra hive. Through me if you'd like, or just through the website directly, if you want to hear a bit more about, uh, this software that helps you to, to understand and measure a map relationship. So I think that is, uh, as we've talked about, that is a company's most valuable asset are their relationships. So understanding who has them and, and how you can leverage them as an organization and collaborate better, I think is, is crucial in today's market.

Austin Mcnair:

Totally agree and, and for anyone who didn't, uh, catch it. Ryan's book is also available on Amazon everywhere where they, uh, sell books. Building B2B relationships, how to identify, map, and develop key relationships. Yeah, I put it back, I, I missed a tagline there. Building B2B relationships, how to identify, map, and develop key relationships to win more business. There it is. Uh, well, Ryan, thanks for your time today. we really enjoyed it.

Ryan O'Sullivan:

pleasure.