Spiraling Up — Marketing For Professional Services

Swipe Right: The Business Development Dating Game

• Hinge • Season 1 • Episode 18

Share episode

What if winning work felt a little more like dating? 

In this episode of Spiraling Up, Joe and Mary-Blanche sit down with marketing pros Amy Cuddy (Wilmot Sanz) and Abby Harrington (Gilbane Building Company) to unpack the parallels between proposal pursuits and modern matchmaking. From the principal in charge who “flies in and out” to the designer who just can’t stop tweaking, Amy and Abby share how to manage every personality type you’ll encounter in business development — and when it’s time to swipe left.

They’ll also play a round of The Business Development Dating Game, where red flags and green flags fly fast. Whether you’re chasing RFPs, courting clients, or trying to build better teaming partnerships, this episode will help you navigate the pursuit process with humor, empathy, and a few laughs along the way.

00:00 Welcome to Spiraling Up
03:19 Introducing Amy and Abby
07:52 Principal In Charge
08:48 Project Manager
12:42 Marketing Manager
14:43 Marketing Director
16:02 Business Development
18:35 Swipe Left Or Right?
20:03 Pick Up Line 1
21:30 Pick Up Line 2
23:38 Pick Up Line 3
26:29 Pick Up Line 4
27:54 Pick Up Line 5
29:38 Pick Up Line 6
30:56 Pick Up Line 7 
32:42 Pick Up Line 8 
35:36 Pick Up Line 9
38:09 Pick Up Line 10 
39:30 Pick Up Line 11 
41:18 Pick Up Line 12
42:30 Conclusion

Connect with Amy Cuddy: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amypcuddy/
Learn more about Wilmot Sanz: https://www.wilmot.com/

Connect with Abby Harrington: https://www.linkedin.com/in/abby-f-harrington/
Learn more about Gilbane Building Company: https://www.gilbaneco.com/

Austin McNair:

In today's episode of Spiraling Up. We're finally doing it. We're swiping left. We're swiping right. We're having a great conversation with our guests today. This week, Joe and Mary Blanche sit down with two exceptional professional services marketing leaders on navigating the different personalities you deal with in proposal and business development endeavors. Welcome everybody. This is spiraling up with Hinge Inch. All right. Welcome everyone to Spiraling Up the podcast for professional services marketers. My name is Austin McNair, and as always, I'm joined by my colleagues and co-host Joe Pope and Mary Blanche Kramer. As we get started, I want to say thank you to all of our listeners and those watching on YouTube. Please hit the subscribe button, like the video. Uh, if you're listening on an audio platform, make sure when you're, you know, probably if you're probably driving in a car right now or something, get to a safe spot, leave us a review, support the show. All the engagement and interaction really helps and lets us know, uh, that people are listening and what you guys like to hear. Joe, uh, you. Are one of our two guests here that got to go and sit down with Abby and Amy, um, to talk about their presentation that they did at a recent SMPS, uh, summit event. Uh, I unfortunately could not make the trip all the way up to the Hinge office, but I know that you and Mary Blanc were there with our two guests. Uh, tell us about it. What can, uh, how did this all come about?

Joe Pope:

Well, I think we've been trying to find more and more ways to do it live, if you will. I mean, the, the ability to sit down with folks, uh, and have, uh, face-to-face conversations leads to good content. I don't know if you knew this, but if you've seen other podcasts when they do that, you'll, a lot of times you'll get a really good, uh, you'll get a good experience from that. And of course, we wanna lean into those types of experiences as well. Yeah, Abby and Amy are two awesome friends of Hinge and, and folks that we interact with quite a bit, uh, through their local s and PS DC chapter. Both the former presidents of that chapter, and they recently were selected to speak at the annual s and PS Amplify Conference, which is a once a year. They bring together all of these different chapters at a pretty large conference This year was in Columbus, Ohio, and they were selected to speak and talk about well swiping right, swiping left, uh, particularly focused on the business development and capture process and well as. I worked for Hinge, sitting in the audience, I couldn't help but feel like there was a natural connection there. Uh, and so I, I walked up to Amy and Abey after the, at one of the networking events and I said, Hey, we gotta bring this to the pod. We gotta talk about how we win. Opportunities and how we manage all the different personalities, and frankly, which ones are we trying to send to the curb. So, uh, yeah, like you, like you hinted at in the intro, we, uh, we're finally doing it. We are leaning into this and, and I think, uh, the audience is really gonna enjoy what Amy and Abby had to say on how we manage these different personalities.

Austin McNair:

Yeah, it, it's a great I interview and, um, I know everybody who's listening is gonna really enjoy it. So why don't we turn now then to, uh, Joe and Mary Blanche's conversation with Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington.

Mary Blanche:

Okay. Well thank you guys for joining us. Uh, first let's start with some introductions. Okay. Do you guys mind doing a quick round? Sure.

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

I'm Abby Harrington. I work for Gilbane Building Company. I am the sales operations manager, which means exactly what it means. I handle all the marketing, our oversee marketing for our division. So I focus a lot on proposals, presentations, um, just selling what Gilbane does to our clients. Absolutely. Great. I'm Amy Cudi. I'm the Director of marketing, uh, and HR at Wilmont Sands. Uh, we're a healthcare design firm. We focus on, you know, on a hundred percent healthcare hospitals, right. Um, I do marketing communications, um, proposals. And just recently took on hr, which is a whole new adventure.

Mary Blanche:

So just a light workload just to keep yourself. Yeah, for sure. Well, in between all of that, I know both of you're heavily active in our local s and PS chapter S and PSDC. Yeah. And as a part of that, we all got together at the Amplify Conference that s and PS and PS puts on annually. Uh, and that was in Columbus this year. And I got to hear you guys both speak about a certain topic near and dear. To our hearts, which is the just general capture process that we go through in professional services. You guys had a unique take on how we talked about this. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

Sure. Well, we, um, you know, Abby and I have both been working in proposals for our entire careers. Yeah. Um, and so we really wanted to talk about the pursuit process and how to be a good pursuit partner. Um, so, you know, we're always in different partnerships. Whether it's a prime sub or a design build. And you know, we've worked with lots of great partners and then we've worked with lots of not so great partners. Um, so, you know, we really kind of wanted to break it down and try to inspire people to be that ultimate pursuit partner. Mm-hmm. Um, and so we thought it would be really fun to do a, a cool scene, something we know nothing about, um, because we've. Both been married for a while now, but we hear there's dating apps. Yes. And you can swipe left or right and I still don't know which way is good and which way is bad, so right. Swipe myself. This podcast need to help. Swipe right is good.

Mary Blanche:

We're really all showing our Yes. Now.

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

Yes. Swipe right is green. Yes, exactly what you need to say because I know color codes. Right, exactly. Um, so we put this big spin on it and really talked about like the different relationships and how you can respond in different scenarios, kind of like you would do in online dating. Yeah. You know, you shot, you show up for a first date, um, and then. You know, it really, uh, you know, how are you responding to different, um, different people and their reactions? Yeah. With kind of all the typical players that we see in our pursuit process. Like, you know, the people in the room, like we generalize. Not saying they're all the same, but a lot of them kind of share some similarities. So that's what we picked up on. And then we just talk about ways to work around some of the challenges with the different personalities. Yeah. Yeah. And so this being the Spiraling Up Podcast, we love to gamify phe and this also being a podcast hosted by Hinge, which may or may not have a naming similarity to one of these applications that you're referencing. I think I've heard that before. Yeah.

Mary Blanche:

I also know that we had the name first just saying, don't come after us, Angie. Uh, we can't afford that. Yeah. Uh, but no, we, we thought that this just was a natural. Opportunity for us to talk about a topic that just comes outside the a EC industry as well. Because frankly, a lot of times, especially in the small, mid-size businesses, we have, uh, marketing resources that wear a lot of different hats. And you were, Amy, you were just talking about a few hats, including a new one that you've just taken on. Uh, so this was a good opportunity for us to. We'll say, provide some insights and information mm-hmm. To some of our, friends who listen in and, and understanding how they could potentially deal with some characters Yep. If you will. So some, uh, prospective people for us to swipe right or left on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. Well, uh, Mary Blanc, do you want to talk through a few of these characters? I do. And I just have to say before we get started, this was one of my favorite parts of y'all's presentation and producer John will be including, uh, some of the memes that you guys included for each one of these. Um, but I just thought this was such a awesome way to engage the audience and just really give the context, like for the game that, that we're about to play. Um, all right. So first up. Uh, tell us a little bit about the principal in charge.

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

Okay, so if it was a dating profile, I think something that the principal in charge would have on it is they're the big ideas person. Mm. They're gonna fly in, fly out. They might not get super specific about details. And one of the challenges that comes with that is, you know, they don't have a lot of time and so they might come in and want. Sweeping changes at the last minute. So that's, that's kind of the challenge that you deal with. Mm-hmm.

Mary Blanche:

Yeah. And across professional services, you could think of this as managing partners and other folks who will have a great interest in being successful in winning work.

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

Absolutely.

Mary Blanche:

But maybe not a lot of time to actually help. Make it be successful. Exactly

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

right. Yeah. They also hold a lot of power in the process.

Mary Blanche:

That's right.

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

Um, they can push a button and turn things to chaos. So you have to really get them on your side or manage that. Yeah,

Mary Blanche:

yeah, yeah. Well, another role that, uh, transcends across all professional services is the project manager role. Tell us a little bit about that.

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

So the project manager is really somebody that, um, is focused on that budget, that schedule. They're really detail oriented. Um, you know, they wanna know what they're supposed to be doing and by when. Um, but they're, you know, sometimes they can't be very flexible. Um, sometimes they have problems with soft skills and maybe communication. Um, spreadsheet analysis. No. No offense to any project managers out there because they do vary. But, um, you know, they're very focused on the details and um, you know, they kind of wanna look in their one lane, um, and maybe not see the whole big picture. Um, so it's really, you know, it's your job as the marketer to help them see that big picture. Yeah. And I find they're also, they're kind of the doer on the other, other side of the table, on the operation side of the table. They're the ones that are pulling the schedule for us. Together. Um, so they, they kind of have a big weight on them that's very specific and not always strategy driven. So I think part of our job is to remind them of the strategy that, you know, what's our win strategy? How are we gonna get, get to the cell? Exactly. Absolutely. Yeah.

Mary Blanche:

All right. Next step is the designer.

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

Oh, well, I've worked for architecture firms my whole career, so I have a soft spot for designers. Um, even when they're chasing after me with the red pen as a proposal is going out the door. Blue pens only in this studio. Okay, sounds good. Um, so designers, I feel like you really just have to get to know what their hot buttons are. Their quirks. Their quirks, yes. You know, I, I love designers, but you know, you really need to con, constantly remind them of, you know, deadlines. You need to remind them that we're all in a shared interest and like you appreciate their vision. You want their vision to be incorporated. Um, but remind them like we do have a. Um, to think about and what is realistic. So sometimes they'll, you know, they'll embrace the vision over practicality. Yeah. Um, and you need to really focus, focus them in. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think, you know, I do that with like, you know, daily check-ins. How's it going? Oh, this looks great. I also, you know, stroke the ego a little bit, um, just because I think compliments go a really long way. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, everybody likes to hear how great they're doing. Yeah. Um, but also, you know, make sure that they realize we're also in a competition for this. So you have to think about who we're competing against as well. Um, yeah, and just really keep. Keep a close eye, I would say on the designers. I was gonna say, I know on my side of the table, so I'm with a construction firm, so I, I would work across the table with a designer and I find that pencils down becomes really important with'em. Or I think they will edit forever. Yes. Uh, truly these, the term pencils down too. Yeah. So it's like you do have to add guardrails for, um, a personality. Like that, who is going to want perfection, but we can't let perfection hold us back from getting the deadline done, getting job done. Yeah. Yeah. I also find that with designers, um, defining the scope of what their deliverables are, like you're gonna do two renderings. One's gonna be this view, one's gonna be that view. You're gonna do a site plan, you're gonna do Yeah. Sharply this, like, it's very, they need help defining that because they won't, like, they'll see this vision and then they won't know how to conceptualize it into actual deliverables. For your proposal document, for your interview. You know, slide deck and you know, they need that concrete reality versus like just continuing to sketch or like, let's have another 90 minute charette. Yeah. It's like what is coming out of that? Right. So do I need to be included? Yes. Always, always, always the answer, please.

Mary Blanche:

All right. Let's go on to the marketing manager.

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

I mean, that's kind of me. And so I do love that. That's our people the most, no, they're the, you know, they're the doer. They're the organizer. I think organ organization is one of their skillset. So they're the ones kind of steering the ship, keeping everybody on task. They're sending out the, um, draft schedule and when we need everything back by. And so I think. For maybe a coordinator or possibly like a specialist that's trying to work with that manager. What's important is for you to tell them how you can contribute, right? Because I don't always know what you're best at or what you want to work on, but I love when someone actually. Pulls me aside and says like, Abby, I would really love to do this section. Like I'm really trying to work on my graphic skills, whatever it is. That kind of knowledge is so helpful for me. So I have a better idea of where to assign people and what they are contributing. So I think that's important, and especially if you're in a teaming arrangement. So let's say if I am, um, like on a design build team, so that means I'm the. I'm working as the designer, Abby's the prime in that relationship, so I'm kind of reporting to her as the marketing person on the design side. I'm gonna go to Abby and say, how can I support you in this pursuit? Because typically it would just be like resumes, projects, and then my design team is, you know, delivering her a design and an approach. Mm-hmm. But that doesn't mean that I can't support her in different ways. Mm-hmm. Maybe I'm doing background research on the client, maybe I'm helping. You know, collect sub information or reformatting it for her just to take load off of her plate. And I feel like in lots of prime sub relationships that can really go a long way. What questions are you asking to that? You know, prime marketing point of contact, like how can I help? Yeah. Um, you know, further the team, because you're all in it for the same goal.

Mary Blanche:

Mm-hmm. For the same reason.

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

Yeah. So now on

Mary Blanche:

a similar lane, what about the marketing director?

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

Ooh, the director. Do you wanna take that one? I mean, I mean, we're, I feel like that's your title. Yes. So like No, no, no. It's fine. It's fine. Like it's you. Uh, again, I think they're kind of the more big picture person, almost similar to a principal in charge, where they know the overall firm's strategy and that's really what they're gonna bring to the table. They just might not have time to dive down into the details. So I think it's important to sort of have a side conversation. Get them, um, like knowledge up. So when they come to the, whichever meeting they're able to come to, they know the background, that's gone back and forth. And so they're timing in with valuable input for their time. Yeah. Yeah, on um, at my previous firm I worked on a large team and I was managing all the pursuits going out. Right. And, you know, it was, you know, it was easy. It wasn't easy for me to get, um, up to speed on everything that was going on. Yeah. So my team was very good at. You know, kind of c clueing me in, um, on as I was reviewing things. Right. Um, so yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Mary Blanche:

All right. Well, last but not least, uh, and this is my favorite one that y'all did in the presentation because it was so spot on. I was elbowing Joe like the entire time. But tell us about the, uh, business development person.

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

I, I mean, they're like the client person, right? Yeah. They know everybody in town. They're gonna bring what should be a well thought out strategy, hopefully. Yep. But also, sometimes they add kind of unhelpful comments to the situation. Yeah. Or they can be a little ambiguous with the direction of where we need to go. Yes. Very vague. Sometimes they can be very vague sometimes, so it's, I do think it's our job on the marketing side. Again, to kind of reel out the details that we need from them. Mm-hmm. Because they have that background knowledge with the client. They have those deep relationships. So that's really what I rely on them for is, is bringing it all together and connecting the dots.

Mary Blanche:

Yeah, Abby re relationships has been a big talking point. Um, this podcast specifically as we've continued to dive in and trying to understand this whole life cycle that professional services organizations go through when they are trying to win work, retain, work, develop, training, relationships, partnerships, and that business development person, especially in the a EC space. But we'll, we'll see this in all industries, that early relationship piece, and then translating that into how we respond. Mm-hmm. And then how we present. Yes. Is truly what will set organizations apart. And I know that's, that's a topic hinge gets involved in a lot of times with our clients as the creative agency and the plugs in. Yeah. But it's taking not just imagery, but uh, it's taking the thoughts from these folks and translating that into creative, creative words, positioning, messaging, and so forth.

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

And it's an interesting balance because, um, our clients want to see the subject matter experts and maybe not necessarily somebody in a traditional BD role. Um, and so how do you translate, those relationships where you're, you have that frontline business development person, but they're also helping get those seller doers out there, right? Have them be a part of that relationship. And it's all kind of coming together into that package and that presentation and, um, it's kind of like a beautiful dance if you'll, yeah. Um, you just have to choreograph it correctly. Yeah. Maybe that will be the theme for our next, um, a beautiful session. Beautiful dance. A beautiful, yes. We can have a choreographed dance. That would be amazing. Yeah. Yeah. But it might not be a TikTok dance guys. Right. I don't

Mary Blanche:

think we're ready for that. I dunno. They have themes like our romcom. Uh, that's right. Yes. Yeah. We just did a episode, how to Lose a, how to Lose Lead in 10 Days. I Amazing Is the other one called, there's a follow up from, uh, 10. 10 things we hit about websites. Nice. Yeah. So we've got a little bit of, a bit starting to, to roll. That's great.

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

Yes.

Mary Blanche:

We'll work on it. Yeah. Good. Well, speaking of games, uh, movies and so forth, uh, with, let's start to dive in. Let's talk a little bit about the types of. Scenarios, pickup lines, if you will mm-hmm. That you might run into as you talk to these various personas. Sure.

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

Love it. All right,

Mary Blanche:

well, we have these branded, uh, branded note cards.

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

Oh, I did notice that. Pepsi. This is like a real day show for fun. Wow. Okay, game

Mary Blanche:

cards. Alright, so what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna tell you who, what persona it is. So if it's a project manager, graphic designer, I'll let you know who that is and then I'm gonna give you a quote from them. Okay. And y'all are gonna have to let us know are we swiping left or are we swiping right? Okay. And then. We'll talk a little bit about about why. Okay. Okay. Well, I was wondering before we dived in, do we have any visual elements that we could utilize in showing if we're gonna go right or left?

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

Uh, yes, we do. We do have them. All right. Here we go. We have our fantastic swipe right, swipe left. Wait, which pillar are you? I guess, do you wanna be good or bad? Uh, I You're wearing bad. Be bad. Oh yeah. Okay, fine.

Mary Blanche:

We need contrast depth contrast. I love that. We don't want the finger to disappear.

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

Disappear. I'm so ready for that left. Okay, fine. Right, right. And then this one has to go this way. That's right. Yeah. See if that left.

Mary Blanche:

It'll be great. I love it. Okay. Right. Alright, let's call. Good. Yeah. Prop. We're ready all. So first up, first Persona's gonna be the project manager. I color coded the schedule. So even your grandma could follow it.

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

Aw. Well I feel like that's a right. That's great. Yeah. That's going the extra mile. I mean, I love that. Yeah. Easy to read. That's good for the client. Like you don't wanna forget about. This is going to the client. It's not all what we like to see. It really needs to be easy to read too. Mm-hmm.

Mary Blanche:

Yeah. Y'all talked in your presentation a lot about how first impressions matter. So when I read this one, I thought it just really tied well to some of the, you know, first impressions do matter, and I, I hear that coming out of the gate like, yep, I'm swiping.

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I would say that's really great, and I love that, you know, the project manager took time to do that. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, from the other side, um, I would say like, is it following the brand standards of our proposal? Yeah. Um, you know, does it, is it following what the client asked for? You know, did they ask for a bar chart? Did they. You know, so it's great that the PM took that initiative. Mm-hmm. But I also have PMs that do these like crazy, you know, Microsoft project schedules that like have eight point font. And so if they color coded that chart, um, like no one asked for that. Maybe we're in deep crap this one. So. Well, Abby has a great positive attitude about that. I always am like skeptical when PMs take stuff into their own hands. Mm-hmm. Without talking to me first. Yeah. Yeah. She's been hurt. I know. I, I live,

Mary Blanche:

she's been burned in the past. All right. We're going with, uh, business development role next. Um, the client values sustainability. Mm. Let's weave it in where it makes sense. I where it makes sense, I'm so okay with, as long as it's not the day that our pursuit is due, you know? Yeah. So I think it's a a right. With conditions. Yeah. I would say so. I would always ask, um, can you define sustainability? It's there. Yeah.'cause that, as

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

we said before, BD and vague points. Um, you know, was there a specific conversation that you had with somebody? Was it their director of sustainability? Did they talk about. Wind farms or solar voltaic or et cetera, et cetera. I'm not a sustainability expert, but can we weave in something more detailed than just our sustainability boilerplate narrative? Yeah. Yeah. Which is most likely already in our submission for, um, you know, compliance reasons.

Mary Blanche:

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Certainly, and I mean, this is the place where. Hinges research really uncovers kind of the, the things that tip the scale. And obviously having a tie to the key issues and topics and challenges that bother your, your clients, your customers on a day-to-day basis is really a big thing. But another big thing is also, uh, authenticity. Mm-hmm. And you can run a file very quick when you start to turn it into the copy and paste. Oh, well, sustainability, let's throw that in and we'll throw that in. Yeah. What's the acronym of the week? Right? Yeah. And we're just gonna throw that into our proposal response. So I think the, it makes sense. Place where it's like, yes, we're gonna add this. Where it makes sense is what makes it right.

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

I can talk on that immediately. Yeah. But I've, we, I've definitely been victim of bds who like to add everything in the kitchen sink, is what we call it. Yes. So any shiny object that comes along, they wanna. Shove it into the pursuit.

Mary Blanche:

We run into that in website engagements.

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

Oh,

Mary Blanche:

well you need this 50th division of our second practice group doesn't get its own special living page.

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or comments like, um, we can just put it in appendix. No way's gonna be that

Mary Blanche:

appendix not looking at it. Yeah. Alright. Next step. We're going back to the project manager role. Deadlines question mark. I thought those were more like suggestions.

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

Oh. Oh, no. Oh, that's gonna be over here. Yeah. Am I swiping the correct way? Last left. Last Left hard. Left. Hard left. Yeah. Last car race. Real left. Yeah. So I find that project managers really respond well to having that upfront schedule of like, you're at your kickoff, you have that outline, you have the expectations you have. You know, um, calendar invitations, reminders, like everything is laid out or sent out right after that project kickoff. And I work very hard to like, make sure that, that, you know. Is expectations are set so that people won't be disappointed. Um, you know, and I think I like to give people grace. So like, if you miss one deadline, it's like, okay, um, what happened? How can I help? If you missed two deadlines, then it's like, all right, let's refocus. How can we, um, support you? And this has to get done. Um. You know, it's not a like or else, but it's like, this has to get done, so what's the plan? And like, do we need to go talk to so and so? Mm-hmm. Um, you know, not a like threat, but yeah. Kind of a threat. I do. I think it's, you know, we're doling out responsibility at the kickoff at the beginning. Right. But it's kind of, it is up to us to build in the accountability as well, which is what I think you were speaking to. So everyone has other stuff on their. Plate and as the marketing manager, I do think we, we are the ones holding people accountable in the pursuit process. Mm-hmm. To get things done on time.

Mary Blanche:

Well, whether it's a pursuit or you're launching a visibility campaign or anything along those lines. Right. I think we can all understand and respect the need to following the schedule. Yeah. Because everything will go completely sideways, otherwise. I was in a project manager role years prior and it's like that, it's the Bible for the project, right? Yeah. So suggestions, no deadlines. Yes.

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

Yeah. Yes. And I feel like some teams think that like the internal deadlines can slide. Um, but I, I feel as though it's important to know that. Like everyone else gets stressed when it was internal deadlines slide. Mm-hmm. And then, and then you get closer and closer to the actual deadline. And so it's kind of like a lessons learned process. Um Right. You know, post, it's like, how did that go? Like if we had hit these deadlines, we wouldn't have had a, B and C close to the end. So. Right. And then what.

Mary Blanche:

Slides internally. What it ends up doing is creates more stress on whoever the dependency was for the next. It's like a trickle

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

down kind of. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Not great. Yes, exactly. So we're we're, none of us are gonna date that one.

Mary Blanche:

We're not. All right. Next one up is a designer who says, I mocked up two layouts. Pick your favorite and I promise not to reinvent it at 3:00 AM All right. I

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

mean, I, you have some apprehension. I'm always like, I'm just gonna go right? Like, I think I'm gonna date a lot of people. I. Anybody? Well, I've been married longer than you, so, um, so I feel like, all right, so is this a designer, like a graphic designer or is this like a designer? Like she's so worried already. She's so worried. More work context before I say yes

Mary Blanche:

to. They're not your favorite designer. Someone, I just say graphic designer. Trusted.

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

Trusted. So I. I do trust graphic designers, especially one that are on my team. Yeah. Um, you know, I feel like they, they're wizards in a sense. Um, and I usually have really great relationships with graphic designers. Um, but. So I would, I would agree with Abby Architects, um, when they're designing like buildings or things like that and they say they're not gonna change it, that's like boldface lie. Um, they're gonna change it up until the last minute. Yeah. So, graphic designers out. I'll go on a David. Okay.

Mary Blanche:

We got one. Okay. We're sticking with designers. Okay. But, all right. Um, we still have an hour before submission. Let's swap out all 30 graphics.

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

I mean, I, yeah, I think that's what Amy is concerned about. No, all that's all. Yeah. Yes. They've been

Mary Blanche:

known to have an epiphany in a shower, right. Where it's just like the water was falling down their face and thought to themselves, well, why not change every single graphic for this mission vision? Yeah.

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

Right. So what I do in that scenario is I ask the why. Mm-hmm. Why do we need to change this graphic? And sometimes there is a really good reason. Yeah. Like I read this article. Last night when I couldn't sleep about this proposal and the president of, you know, this institution said this, this, and this. And so we really need to hone in on yeah, this, or we need to have like a, you know, some sort of image that ties to this topic. And so. In that sense, I would say, okay, well we're not gonna change all 30 images, but let's change out five and then let's go through and talk about this. Let's take 30 minutes. Yeah. And I always give it like a time block because we can't sit there for hours. Mm-hmm. Um, and do that. Yeah. Yeah. So it's kind of giving the Yes, but also the no. Yeah.

Mary Blanche:

Yeah. That's good advice.

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

I like to think of that as the yes and yes. That's correct. And it sounds nice when you say it, but you're actually giving them parameters around which they need to follow. Yes. So yeah, like, yes, we can do it. And it's only gonna be five images. Yes.

Mary Blanche:

Not 35, right? Yeah. All right. Let's switch it up to marketing director. Marketing director comes to you and says. I cleared an hour to workshop win themes with you because if we're going whale hunting, we'd better have the right bait.

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

I know this one's making me think. I just think I would need to know how far down the line we are with Yeah. Is, are we already into two weeks out a specific pursuit Weeks? Mm-hmm. Yeah. We already focused on a project and we're. Working on that? Or are we at the very beginning of the opening game, pre-sell and then, and we truly are going whale hunting, like as in we haven't even picked a project yet. Mm-hmm. Right. If that's where she's getting or he, she's getting involved. That's awesome. Yeah, like let's do it. I love brainstorming. I think it's super helpful to set the tone, but if we're two days further down the line Yeah. From the submission and you can talk about themes. So left.

Mary Blanche:

That's that's the phrase right there. Yeah. If we're thinking when themes, this is early on in any sort of pursuit process. It

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

has to be. Yeah. Because if

Mary Blanche:

you're at the end of a pursuit process and you still haven't yet decided what your win themes are mm-hmm. Your chances of being successful here means, uh, pretty minimal, frankly. Yeah. Uh, you, you could luck into it, but that's not the good way to go about having a, a good, solid process. Yeah. Yes. Yep. All right. Principal in charge comes to you and says, let's align for 15 minutes so I can share my vision. Then I will disappear like a good magician.

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

I, I mean. I would appreciate that. Like, you know, I could

Mary Blanche:

please disappear after 15.

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

Exactly. Right. Like, yeah, don't linger behind me, but just come in, let's have a quick alignment meeting, and then I can bring that forth to the full stakeholder meeting that has everybody involved without getting. Sidetracked completely on what their vision is. Mm-hmm. Because that's kind of what can happen is they bring a vision to our big stakeholder meeting and then the whole meeting is going sideways quickly.'cause they're focusing in on a tangent, basically. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree with that. Although I would swipe left in that I would be scared that they would not disappear forever and that they would keep also 15 minutes. Coming back back, they always save five minutes, but then it turns into like 90 minutes. No, I, I don't, I

Mary Blanche:

You haven't eaten lunch now and you're moving into your next one.

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

I, I work with great, um, great design partners and I, I think that they're very succinct in what they want. It depends on who you're working with, right. Um, you have to know, you have to know your personalities. Yeah. Time to get to know your personalities. Mm-hmm. Right. Um, I definitely have a principal in charge. I abso a hundred percent believe that he would just give me his vision and walk away. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And then there's others where I'd be like, uh, I dunno. Now you're just gonna hear back from you. Like, you're gonna be more involved. You're

Mary Blanche:

gonna be here for a little while. They walk in, they have their lunch with them, they put it on the table. It just so happens you've got time. Right. All right, um, let's go to marketing coordinator next. Um, comes to you and says, I locked, I locked the draft at 2:00 PM Sharp. So any last minute edits, can kindly take a hike.

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

Okay. So marketing coordinators are my heroes. Um, my personal heroes. Um, so. I would usually always give them a pass. Mm-hmm. However, that's not very flexible or adaptable, which marketing coordinators need to be to be. Yeah. Um, and so while they are my heroes and I love them, um, they need to understand that, you know, you have to. Accommodate everyone. Mm-hmm. And their schedules. And sometimes that can be really hard and frustrating. Um, so let's say a principal in charge comes with like two more comments. Now if it's like, you need to change this word from team organizational chart to organizational chart, like we're not Yeah. That's not a title flock. Yeah. Yeah. If we have spelled the client's name wrong. Or they caught another client's name somewhere on the page, like we're unlocking that draft. Yeah. Um, so, you know, it's all about perspective and what time we're at, I think. And, you know, understanding that, you know, there are certain things like I know Abby talked about in our presentation, like having a shared draft and comments and um mm-hmm. Making sure that. Everybody can see the comments so that there's like issues resolved between people. So it's not falling on the marketing coordinator mm-hmm. To decide that. Yeah, I do. That is a good, um, opportunity for collaboration where there's whole conversations happening in the sidebar of our, we use Adobe for the LiveLike. Sure. So everyone can comment and see everybody else's comments. The other thing that we do though, is we send out a final review draft. That goes to everybody. And then we send a fatal flaw that goes to the key players only, which is generally probably four of us.

Mary Blanche:

Right? Yeah. You know, like it is truly

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

just the BD marketing principle in charge like, and so it's a very small group for that. Fatal flaw. Yeah. Compliance issue, sort of hot button comments only. Mm-hmm.

Mary Blanche:

Yeah. We have a lot of similarities in the marketing world and that, uh, when we are going through a creative exercise, for example, whether it's a website or a logo or things along those lines, there's kind of two distinctive groups mm-hmm. Of which you would want to have creative and yeah. That fatal flaw slash slash last. DecisionMaker slash Yes. Okay, we're moving forward with, uh, you know, whatever periwinkle as a new color. Uh, like that's gotta get through that small working group. But if you start to involve the opinions of everyone at that point, then we're in trouble. Yeah. Likelihood quick. Yeah. Yeah. The likelihood of having to them restart is, is a challenge. So, uh, I think there's a great. Synergy there between both pursuit and then the creative side of marketing as well. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. For sure. Okay. Now same role marketing coordinator. Um, they come to you and they say, wait, oh my gosh, I had no idea that was due today. How do you handle something like that?

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

Oh, we're gonna have to have a one-on-one about that. That's like a really big red flag.

Mary Blanche:

So what's worse than swiping left? I

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

don't think I wanna say it out loud, but like, that would really consider me fire, so yeah, that be great. Yeah. So I feel like there would be two responses for me as, um, so right now in my current role we're, I'm at a smaller firm, we're about 50 people, so I don't have any direct reports coordinators. Um, but we, um, in my previous role, I would say like, okay, um, we're gonna talk about how we missed this deadline later, however. We need to get this deadline done, so let's work a plan. Um, you know, and then I would jump in and put my marketing manager hat on, you know, take a step down and then all hands, all hands in, like, get it out, finish line. Yeah. Which is what I love about a, a c marketers and also what I hate about a c marketers is that those. The team mentality is strong. It is, the team mentality is strong, but also the expectations that you are going to just put everything in your life aside to get the deadline done. And that goes for like, you know, the principals think that you know, that you're, that you can work 24 7 and to get it done or review it or whatever, like, and it's different. Between different firms. But I think that Right. Um, yeah. You know, it's an ethos. It is an ethos, yes. And I feel like we need to change it. Mm-hmm. Um, so let's get off my soapbox. No, it's, it's, I love it. I, I was picking up what you were picking down.

Mary Blanche:

Yeah. We, we've done a lot of research into employer brands specifically, and the types of things that mid to senior level folks are looking for. In the type of organizations that they work with. Mm-hmm. I mean, the younger folks, a lot of times they just don't quite even understand, like the culture they go into is what they, they think all culture is that way, for example. Yeah, yeah. But you know, organizations that do make a commitment to, uh, that balance, if you will, that understanding, or, you know, even in circumstances where when something goes sideways like that, it's not, oh, let's let marketing figure this. S out. Yeah. Like the leadership will help as well. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Uh, so I, I loved how Amy, how you broke down the, kind of the two angles here to this. It's like, one is, we'll figure out why this went sideways tomorrow. Yeah. Yeah. We need to get this figured out now. Yes. It's the right way of thinking through it. Yeah. As a team. Yeah. All right. So we're gonna stay on marketing, but we're gonna pivot to the director role. Uh, director comes in and says, i'm flying in for the final pitch, but don't expect me to touch the proposal prep.

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

Okay. I don't love that. Um, yeah, I'd probably swipe left. Yeah, I, uh, I would never, um, I'm very hands-on, but I do know that some people in this role are not very hands-on. Mm-hmm. Um, and I just see like, uh, a time bomb, like go off, that's not, that's just gonna throw ratchets in and make everybody nervous. I, mm-hmm. I think it's just respect for people's time. Yeah. Like, I want someone to come. Prepped, um, keyword prepped. Yeah, so read the proposal please and then you can start commenting and adding in.'cause I'm sure you have strategic valuable input. It's not that you don't, but you need to have the background knowledge of everything that we have been through to get to this point that we are at right now. Mm-hmm. So,'cause you do kind of bond as a proposal team, even from like the principal, the project manager, the designer, the super like, and there's like a back and forth, you know, where there's a reason we said yes to something and no to something. And so that they might not know that and then come in and. Right. Yeah. And yeah, you don't want somebody upsetting the apple cart, especially at the last, the 13th hour. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Mary Blanche:

Right. I'm excited for this next one. This is a good one. Okay. We're ready. We're ready? Yes. Uh, so business development is the persona. Okay. Uhhuh. Okay. Uhhuh. I promised the client the moon. I'm sure that you can figure out how to land it.

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

Okay. So I do feel like this has happened to probably both of us before. This does happen a lot actually. Yeah. Um, no Hate towards Speedy. Um, that's a lu. Yeah. Hello. Um, so I would say this would be a left and I would red flag it up to my technical team. Mm-hmm. Um. And say like, this has happened. Yeah. Like, we need to work the problem here and how are we going to figure this out? Yeah. Um, and I think. It would be, uh, you know, us using our knowledge of the client and what we've done with them in the past, hopefully, and what we know about them to understand like, okay, are we going to partner to offer them the moon? Mm-hmm. Um, do we need to think more strategically about what services we're offering? Um, but that would be my first thing is like, what did. Disty person promise. And then how can we deliver it by, you know, who do we know, who can we partner with? Um, what resources do we need? Do we need to make an external hire? Like what, how do we work this problem? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And then maybe there's a discussion about. Reigning in that BD person a little bit, especially with that client.

Mary Blanche:

Yeah, yeah. Like this has happened, so we're gonna address it, but also don't do that again. Exactly. Exactly.

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

So you're scaring me. Exactly. We'll do some research.

Mary Blanche:

All right, we've got one more. Um, so we're gonna end on a project manager persona. Okay. Um, I built a compliance checklist because nothing says romance like deadlines and spreadsheets.

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

I mean, I, I like that I'm gonna swipe right for that organization, taking responsibility, um, being prepared so that, you know, I usually feel it falls on me to do a compliance matrix. But when someone takes the initiative, like I love a check and balance. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, I don't need to be the only one calling all the shots like that. So I love when someone else's eyes are on that. Too. That's super helpful. I agree. Yeah. I think, um, you know, the project manager being really into details and, um, understanding that we need to, you know, cross every t and dot every, I like just someone that's gonna be in the weeds with us. Mm-hmm. Um, and that they care enough about the pursuit to be that dedicated Yeah. To do something like that. I'll, you know, I'll go in the trenches with them any day. Yep. Super appreciated.

Mary Blanche:

You'd say this is, uh, something that would fit into the love language category.

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

Oh yeah. Yes, exactly. Oh yeah.

Mary Blanche:

Terms of terms of endearments spreadsheet,

Amy Cuddy and Abby Harrington:

exactly. Compliance. Yeah.

Mary Blanche:

Abby, Amy, thank you both so much for joining us here on I Spiraling Up Today. I think we've covered quite a bit. We've had some great opportunities to dive into the different roles that folks will come in contact with when you are trying to win work in the professional services space. Yeah, I hopefully, uh, I think we've given some guidance to those who maybe haven't yet experienced the world of online dating life guidance in the, in the B2B sense, at least. Uh, so there's been a lot of great topics today. Uh, you know, thank you again for agreeing to jump on with us. Yeah, of course. Thanks for having us here. This was so much fun. Absolutely. It's our pleasure.