Spiraling Up — Marketing For Professional Services

M&A Brand Therapy: Sorren’s Approach to Uniting 16 Firms

• Hinge • Season 1 • Episode 20

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In today’s episode of Spiraling Up, we explore one of the boldest moves in the accounting world: the creation of Sorren, a new Top 50 accounting firm formed through the merger of 16 independent firms.

We’re joined by two of the leaders behind this remarkable merger — Tara Davis, National Marketing Director, and Heath Alloway, Growth Partner — who take us inside the real story:

  • How five long-time peer firms planted the seed for a larger merger
  • How the idea spread to 16 firms within the BDO Alliance
  • What it takes to align cultures, systems, processes, and people
  • How they brought together hundreds of employees under a new shared mission, vision, and values

From the M&A strategy to the brand rollout, from overcoming fears and rumor mills to building trust and identity, Tara and Heath share candid insights into the challenges and breakthroughs that shaped Sorren’s launch.

Whether you're navigating a merger, thinking about joining one, or simply curious about how large-scale integration actually happens, tune in for this masterclass in communication, culture, and leadership during transformation.

CHAPTERS:
00:00 Introduction
00:34 Welcome
01:30 Mergers and Acquisitions
05:42 Background
14:36 M&A Brand Therapy Session
15:29 How Do We Bring 16 Firms Together? 
23:07 Rebranding Worries
26:03 Rebranded Company's History
29:32 How To Advise An Exhausted Rumor Killer
33:58 We've Been Bought Out By The Man
39:45 The Impact on a CPA'S Career Trajectory
48:04 How Will a legacy Employee's Voice be Heard? 
51:47 Pivotal Story
52:21 Welcome
52:47 All Things M&A
53:31 Current Climate For Quality
55:36 Due Dilligence Before Brand Integration
57:27 Success Stories and Nightmares

Visit Sorren's website: https://sorren.com/
Connect with Heath on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/heath-alloway/
Connect with Tara on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/taradavis-sorren/

Austin McNair:

In today's episode of Spiraling Up, what Happens when 16 Firms Merge Together into One? Today we're talking with two of the leaders behind the remarkable launch of Sorin, a new top 50 accounting firm. And then we're gonna speak with hinges managing partner Carl Feldman and get his thoughts on the hot. M and a market that's out there right now, guys, it's the m and a episode of Spiraling Up. Welcome everybody. Welcome everyone to Spiraling Up the podcast for professional services marketers and business leaders. My name is Austin McNair, and as always, I am joined by my colleagues and co-hosts, Mary Blanc Kramer,

Mary Blanche:

Hey, Austin.

Austin McNair:

and Mr. Joe Pope.

Joe Pope:

16 firms. That sounds like a heck of a party.

Austin McNair:

Yes, it is. And I'm super excited for today's interview, uh, as we get started. Thank you to all of you listening. Uh, if you're watching on YouTube, hit a hit the like button, subscribe button. Leave us a comment, let us know. Uh, what's your, what's your favorite part of the episode is, uh, all your engagement helps us grow the podcast. And for those listening, leave us a review. Same thing. It really helps us, uh. Get feedback on the podcast and continue to grow what we're doing. And if you wanna send us a note, you can always do that by sending us an email to podcast@hingemarketing.com. You guys, we got the m and a episode happening today, mergers and acquisitions. Uh, Joe, this is something we've written a lot of content about, um, but I can't think of a time in my. Time at Hinge where, um, what's happening in the space of m and a has been more important to the kind of stuff that we do.

Joe Pope:

Yeah, it's, it's an, it's omnipresent, frankly, and if they're organizations that come to us with some of their challenges in the marketing and branding space aren't actively participating in m and a. It's usually coming up that it's a factor that they're paying attention to or something that is, you know, resonating. Uh, it's interesting. One of the biggest reasons why we felt like our guests today were good examples is because they weren't necessarily a bunch of, like a large firm, for example, swallowing up a bunch of small firms. They were a lot of small groups that came together in a like-minded approach. So the types of folks that we know are listening to this podcast, they, they are that type of group. So how is one organization's way of going about this? Effective and, and so forth. But I think in general though, we know that this is not going away. This is the reality of kind of what we're living in. And as organizations are continuing to look to grow and find pathways to do so, uh, this is a consideration that they need to pay attention to.

Austin McNair:

yeah, Mary Blanche. And, you know, in our conversation with, uh, our guests, I mean, part of the m and a side too, and like in the integration, it's like, it's not just about branding, marketing, and I mean, even business strategy, like a lot of that integration has to do with like firm culture and that kind of thing as well, which I know you wrote some questions about.

Mary Blanche:

Yeah, I mean, and I, this is why I'm glad that we brought, um, our guest Carl in, uh, today to talk about a little on the, the m and a side too, and that being one of his. Areas of expertise by wing culture plays a huge part, in this. And I think, when you're bringing something like 16 firms together, I mean, that's gonna be more important, um, than ever to evaluate what each of those individual cultures look like and then how you bring that into one, uh, cohesive structure. So I'm excited to talk to our guest today.

Austin McNair:

All right. Well, uh, without further ado, let's go and meet our guests. We're super excited to get to our next segment with our guests, but first I wanted to let you know about something that we just finished writing and just published. It is Hinge new lead generating website guide. You guys know we love talking about websites. We've co, we've take all of our collective thinking on websites, everything I could get my hands on, every perspective, every interview we took it. We put it into our newly refreshed lead generating website guide, and people can get that. Right now it's free. It's, on our website, hinge marketing.com. And you will get the brand new edition of our guide, and we hope you find it helpful. Now, let's get to our interview. Well, we're honored to be joined by two incredible guests today. First we have Tara Davis. Tara is the. National Marketing Director at Soren. With more than 16 years of marketing experience, including 11 years in the accounting industry, Tara leads a firm-wide marketing strategy focused on brand growth, innovation, and alignment with Soren's strategic goals. Welcome to Spiraling Up, Tara.

Tara Davis:

Thank you. appreciate you having me.

Austin McNair:

And with us as well. We're so happy to be able to get to the chance to talk with Heath Allway Heath is a growth partner at Sorin, driven by a deep commitment to building a thriving culture, developing future leaders, and helping people and organizations leave a lasting legacy. I love that. Uh, introduction. Heath, uh, welcome to the podcast. Yeah.

Heath Alloway:

Thank you. Appreciate the opportunity.

Austin McNair:

Absolutely. Well, we've sort of teed it up a little bit earlier in the episode, um, and we have a fun segment planned with you guys today. But I just wanna start here. I just wanna lay this out on the table. Uh, 16 different firms merging together. Like actually 16. Um. For, for those in our audience who are unfamiliar with the Soren story, uh, I was wondering if we could just start and have you guys give us a breakdown and a, some background on how this all happened and what roles did you guys play in this, um, you know, huge brand launch.

Tara Davis:

Yeah, we are gluttons for punishment. That's, that's where it starts. It, it, it, it grew to 16, but it, um, it really started with five sounding firms and, and those. Firms had a really lengthy relationship through, uh, the VDO Alliance. Um, our five founding partners were on the same managing round, uh, managing partner round table. And so they had known each other for years. They had been talking about their struggles for years and, one day just kind of decided that what if we tried to do this together? I really wish I had been a fly on the wall for that conversation. But, so that's where it really started, was just this idea. I think it was probably a year or two in the making before it actually happened, but, that, that was the foundation, which is a great foundation to start on. It wasn't, you know, a bunch of random firms coming together. So, um, so. They, they were able to find an investor that could help us launch this forward. And, um, and, and Harris, a legacy firm named Harris is, which is where I'm coming from, uh, based in Idaho, was the first one to go. Um, and that was January, 2024. And we were really gonna take our time. We were going to have these five firms come together throughout 2024 and do it. We, we weren't rushing anything. We were trying to make sure we were quiet about it too, and just kind of trying to make sure that we were. Thinking through and taking care of our people and analyzing where we wanted it to go. So, um, that, that's kind of where it ended. I think we had, uh, six firms by the end of 2024, silently kind of coming together. And then 2025 is when we started to, um, we had spread the word internally. We'd reached out to other people in our network and. And, and found some other firms that loved the idea. They wanted to be part of it. They wanted to contribute to it. Um, in the end, we all benefit from coming together and sharing resources and creating this new infrastructure. And, and it was solving all these problems that we've had for years in the industry. And so, um, it, it got popular pretty quick. And then in 2025, um, that's when we had additional firms come on. So by the time we launched our brand, um, it was. 13 firms coming together, and that was May 20, 25. And, uh, today is 16th. So it's been an impressive journey and, um, a bunch of like-minded firms, which makes everything easier. But, but that's, that's the high level story.

Austin McNair:

Yeah. And, and I, I know we're gonna cut into some more of the details there, especially on like the marketing and branding integrations that you've gone through in your experience there, Tara Heath, what was, uh, kind of your role, um, as all of this was happening? I.

Heath Alloway:

I chose to be there. Uh, so I had a little different way of getting involved. So I was with, um, upstream Academy and I knew Josh and the Harris, legacy Harris firm, and I had kind of a, I'll say a peek behind the curtains and knew some of this was going on, and then in, I guess it was. Late 2024 had some discussions about some ideas that have been kind of brewing in my mind for the last seven or eight years. And I had talked to a couple different firms and, and Josh and the Harris team was the first firm to jump at at some of those ideas. And so I joined the firm on April 1st before the new brand launch. So a lot of this was already in the works. I wish I could take credit for a lot of that. Uh, but I, I, I joined the team April 1st and then, you know, became part of Soren. And you talked about the change aspect of, or the number of firms coming together. It's a lot of the stuff that I love. I love the, the change in working through that. I, I love culture, uh, and building that within the other firms. And, uh, going back to like, you know, bringing that many firms together. I actually had one retired managing partner when I was talking to him about it. He said, I've been praying for you every night. That, that was his words of advice for me.

Joe Pope:

That's so well said, Heath. And, and I, I know when you had referenced your work with upstream, I know that a lot of that you've been seeing this bubbling beneath the surface, not just with Soren for example, but across the industry in general. I, I'd love kind of your input on kind of how. In a sense, this idea, this m and a idea and Soren's example for one, but certainly across the accounting space, professional services, have you seen these things really start to evolve, especially in the last five, six years?

Heath Alloway:

Uh, it's, it's been, the last couple years have been, I think it's accelerated quite, quite a bit. Um, let me preface this statement with a, I, I am a big believer that, you know, every firm has to do what's right for them and where they want to go as a firm. And not only that, I, you know, whether you stay independent, you go with an outside investor, you decide to merge into another firm. Uh, I truly believe it's the American dream. I mean, you have a chance to be in a business or be an owner in a business. And so I just wanted to preface my, my answer with that. Uh, I think there's driving factors, Joe. I mean, you look at technology costs, you look at fewer, all the stats, fewer people coming into the profession. That's not just our profession, by the way. That's.

Joe Pope:

Right.

Heath Alloway:

Into the workforce in, in general. And so you have those kind of discussions and you, you think about what is it going to take to run a firm in the infrastructure? And, you know, firms are, they, they hit a point where it's are, are we going to stay independent? And if we are. How are we going to have to invest? Am I gonna go back to my eight or 10 partners and are all of us willing to do this? Or could we find a a, a merger opportunity that's a good fit for our firm, our culture, we see opportunity and then we make the right fit. And, and that's the decision in the direction they go. I don't think it's gonna slow down anytime either, Joe. I think it's, um, you know, I think it's still gonna be front and center for the next few, few years.

Joe Pope:

Yeah. And you referenced the, the culture piece and I you then you say a number like 16, that's a lot of different cultures. Uh, how do you guys tackle that on a, on a day-to-day basis?

Heath Alloway:

Uh, I'm gonna start with our, we have our annual partner meeting coming up in November. Our theme for that annual partner meeting, the first one we've ever done, where this will be the first time many of us will be together in person. The theme's rooted in legacy, the power of one, so honoring our legacies, but coming together truly as one firm to do something special. And another thing I wish I could take credit for, but I love that it was already in the works. Uh, the firm had invested a substantial amount of time on surveying. Tara, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we had like eight or 900 responses from all of the firms, all, all levels. Um, regarding firm culture, the things that they, they loved the most about it. That led to cultural workshops with people at all levels from different offices. Where they came together, they worked on what are the values, who do we want to be? And then from that, um, our new vision, mission, and values was rolled out within the firm. And then each, um, office, each service line, they're going through a thematic goal process that is focusing on one of those cultural values. And that is a project where everyone in that office, they're coming together to focus on that project, to live the mission, the vision, and the values, and bring, bring all of that to life.

Tara Davis:

Yeah. And while we were separate, we all had foundational elements that were the same. And that's what those interviews brought out of the, uh, we had an outside consultant help us with parts of that, and it was what they were noticing. They were starting to get the same answers from everybody we in or. Interviewed employees, we interviewed clients, um, other people in the community and brought it all together. And everybody was saying the same thing about our firms, our reputations and, and what we stood for. So then, you know, you already have a great foundation and, and I guess to go all the way back to the beginning, not every firm is a good fit too. We wanna make sure that we're all good culture fits up front. And, and I think there was a lot of work done in that area through conversations and kind of, and, and just establish relationships too. I mean. We already knew quite a bit about the firms coming in, uh, most of them. So, so those, those secured the, the way we were able to come together because everybody had input in it and they had a voice in it, and, and that was absolutely most important to us.

Joe Pope:

Followers of Hinge. This podcast specifically will know that Hinge is a huge believer in due diligence and hearing that research led the way. It means music to our ears. I mean, we, we preach that all of the time because frankly, you're in the professional services space. This is not an impulse sale. You've got relationships, you've got trust. If you don't build these things, you lose them and you then will lose the opportunity to have success and growth. So founding a brand and research is, we, we completely agree. We're part of the reason why we wanted to have y'all on is because there's a lot of alignment here in best practices for organizations that grow. Faster and when you are growing through m and a, doing it the right way is important.

Tara Davis:

Yeah, absolutely.

Austin McNair:

We briefed you guys ahead of time. You guys are completely prepared here. Uh, you know that on our podcast we like to have a little bit of fun. We mix it up, we kind of come up with these games, we come up with creative challenges. Uh, we'd like to now turn towards kind of our creative challenge of the episode, which, um, I know that we're gonna be able to dig deeper into this story. Um, and, and your experience in this space. Mary Blanche, do you wanna, uh, introduce and tell us what is our, what is our challenge for the day,

Mary Blanche:

yep. Uh, let me tee it up a little bit for us here. Uh, so now we're gonna be diving into the trenches of post merger integration. And when you integrate. Any new acquisition, you inherit a complex web of integration challenges that touch every part of the business. Right? And at the heart of all of this complexity are real people with legitimate anxieties and fears about their careers and about their firm's future. So in this segment, which we are calling the m and a brands. Therapy session. Uh, we wanna turn to your firsthand experience and leadership in this space and ask you, you know, how would you help address these different m and a anxieties and strategically guide team members through these very real integration challenges. Um, so Austin, I think you're the first one, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna kick it over to you first.

Austin McNair:

Yeah, sure. Um, so. From the perspective of a marketing manager going into, uh, an acquired firm or, uh, their companies being acquired. Tara, uh, how would you address this kind of like anxiety here? Uh, when someone comes and says, I don't understand. We have, we're gonna have 13 different websites now. We're gonna have, you know, 13 different email systems, 13 social channels. Like, how are we gonna bring this all together? Like, how long is this gonna take?

Tara Davis:

It definitely is a challenge to come together. Everybody had their own way of doing everything, but on some level, when you come together, in the end, if you have enough foresight. You're gonna get the best of the best of what everybody had. So a lot of research goes into this. First, just like developing any kind of brand. When you're trying to bring these things together, you, there's a full research mode of what, uh, what are you communicating through your websites, what's working, what's not working. And also like setting egos aside for like, let's just be open to what's not working and how we could do this better. But, um, establishing our processes, the technology that we had. Um, the evaluation period was a few months of, of what we, what our starting points were, what the processes of each firm. That has, and there's all different levels of sophistication. Some did no marketing, some did a lot of marketing, some had marketing people, some didn't. So, so it's trying to bring that together, but then it's like you're identifying where you wanna go once you're all together, and then how you get there. So your roadmap is the most important thing, and communication is the most important thing. But, but we, we were in a position just, uh, on Soren side where. Um, there actually wasn't a ton of technology to choose from it. Not all 16 firms had sophisticated marketing departments, so that was a little bit of an advantage. And I think in my past m and a experience that's also the case is typically you're kind of bringing people into what you've already established. So for the website. We downloaded all the content from every single website coming in. We looked at who had blogs, who had content, whose content was working, who had great social channels and engagement, and what were they doing. That worked well. And then we started over and then we created a new plan. Um, and we also. Looked at our own team. Uh, I, I was, uh, I guess a year ago now, a team of two. Um, believe it or not, I'm a team of 10 today and we, we strategically decided what roles we were gonna bring on to support the, uh, initiatives we wanted to do, but we were slow in that and trying to make sure that we weren't jumping the gun. You can't go from zero to 60. It's not a race, and it is gonna take a few years, and that's okay. So. You have to identify what's realistic, upfront and what timeline you can do that in and also push back. But what we've gotten out of that. Is a website that represents every single service that we had individually, but now unites'em all together. It starts to bring teams together. It's actually been a really cool feature for us where, uh, it's our own directory now. We know everybody that works here and it's also been a really good to just get face. We're starting to get some video on our website. It's starting to get some more personality on it, um, and, and bring our voices into it. And then social. That, that's another, you've all got different ways of, some had great strategic plans and some had set up a page 10 years ago and hadn't touched it since. So, uh, our whole goal, when you first come together and you're bringing firms together, the goal should be to retell your story.

Joe Pope:

Yeah. And, and Heath, so from your perspective and coming in as the growth partner and hearing some of these different fears on the marketing side, how do you hear those types of concerns when it's talking about technology integrations, websites, so on and so forth?

Heath Alloway:

Yeah. Well Joe, before we jump in is you said it was a game, so I wanted to ask are we keeping score? So like how do I know how I did at the end? Like, are, are we gonna do a comparison between me and me and Tara?

Joe Pope:

We might put up a poll and we'll let, uh, we'll let you guys, we'll let you guys duke it out on social media because that drives engagement and we're all about engagement.

Heath Alloway:

I, I like it. I like it, Joe. Um, so I'm, I'm gonna go back to something Mary said about the real fears of the anxieties. And you, you, you mentioned like websites, you mentioned technology integration, all of the different moving parts from a foundational standpoint. What I've observed the past several years is that most people tend to focus on the negatives first of everything that could go wrong. I mean, there are studies that show like, what is it, like 12,000 to. 60,000 thoughts a day. 80% are negative, 95% are repetitive. So automatically people start off thinking of everything that could go wrong. I always try to challenge people instead of that. If the like, thinking in the future, if it hasn't happened, why would we not focus on the things that that could go right? And when you talk about that many firms coming together. And from a growth in a firm, we just accelerated our, our, our scale across the firm. now we have a team that's supporting that many firms moving in one direction. Um, so I think in the, just addressing like the negativity and trying to get, um, you know, in, in a good place, it goes back to the communication piece of it, of like, why are we doing, like why did you do this in the first place if your agreement was to come on to do something special together? Yes, there is going to be some change. Change is hard. There's fear in that. But think of the things that could go right and in that way, like most of the negativity comes in when you set expectations here, realities here, and I don't know if people can see my hands, but expectations are usually way higher. And I've seen in a lot of mergers or change, it's like, and I'm guilty of this too. Um. Where I've went in and like almost tried to sell the idea of it. And that's not effective communication. Um, telling people what to expect, the change of what to expect, how is this going to impact me? And that helps you move. Whether that's branding, whether that's tech stack, whether that's processes, I'm not saying it solves everything, but it's a foundational, um, part that I think sets you up for success.

Joe Pope:

Yeah, I was, I was reading, uh, an article last night. I'm blanking on the exact, uh, author of it. Maybe I'll figure it out and edit it in post-production. But, uh, specifically it was talking about mindset and when it comes to elite runners and the idea is that if the, the runners and they did this like large scientific study, the runners that have a mindset that's more. I've gone this far. Versus I have this far to go and the performance that you'll find in those types of runners and those experience, that there was a notable scientific difference between those that are thinking more in that positive light, that more direction, this is why we've done this, this is why I ran this place, versus, oh, shoot, I've still got miles and miles to go. And I, I, I hear you talking, Heath. And it just directly resonates to that whole psychology of setting that kind of. Expectation. And, and Tara, I know you were, you were referencing that expectation piece too when you were talking through, uh, some of that initial onboarding and, and so forth of these different sites.

Heath Alloway:

Joe, from like a CMO standpoint too, my, my, like, my advice to them would be don't sit back and wait. be an advisor in your own role and have a plan. And then when you can communicate that plan to the partner group, it's going to get them more in line and on board with what you're trying to do. And I think that's an important part too, and guiding a lot of that change, especially from a, a marketing or branding standpoint.

Joe Pope:

So we got some more questions for you and I, we didn't say it at the jump, but we're thinking they're gonna actually get harder as it goes along, so

Austin McNair:

That's the game right there. It's like that hot wing show where. The the questions and are gonna get spicier as we go.

Heath Alloway:

Like it.

Joe Pope:

We'll let you, we'll let you tee off this one first. Uh, I'm going to give you the prompt. We've got a partner, so a leader at one of these acquired firms, one of these 13, 16 different organizations, and they were a believer in the project, but they're also a real big believer in their brand as it stands today. And they're worried specifically, Hey, we've established this strength and we, we have this region on lock. And, and while we wanna bring that to the table, we're worried a rebrand is gonna erase. All of that equity that we've built over these years in our region, how do you handle that type of question?

Heath Alloway:

Yeah, Joe, I think it's one, I, I would acknowledge it. I mean, for, for a partner or if it's like passed down from generations, that that's an emotional thing. Um, so I think just knowing that going into it is. Is important. Also, going back to that you made the decision to go this way. So some of that should be flushed out before making that decision. Um, but I would also, like, if a partner's feeling that way, my advice to them is, A, a brand isn't going to change the relationships that, that you've built. Um, you know, if someone's going to leave your firm because of something like this, maybe the relationship wasn't as strong as you. Thought it was, and I would recommend that they, they focus on the controllables, and that's, you know, how they show up. That's their attitude. That's how they communicate to their clients. And, and I think that's a, a, a, a big part of that. Um, so that, that would be my advice to a partner that may be, uh, feeling that way. Your, your brand is still what you think and what you value and what you believe, the things you say, the things you do, you do have some control of how that goes in the, in, in the, in the future. Uh, so that, that would be my advice.

Tara Davis:

Yeah, I, I do think that from a brand perspective, you have a lot of opportunity to still tell your historic story too. That doesn't have to start over. We all have a foundation that we were built on, and so you. And do that through your marketing materials, through your website, you can talk about your entire history, not just the one that starts, uh, at emerge. And, um, especially through your website, there's a lot of opportunity. I've seen a lot of firms do a great job with a historic timeline that talks about many different firm names that they've gone, gone through, and who was involved in that name and, and have that be a permanent part of your website. Um, but then also, you know, when you talk about different locations, you have, if different locations you have, have different histories. Highlight them, you know, they're somebody that's being led to that page and is gonna call that office is from that community generally, and they wanna know about who they're gonna work with. So, so I think you should never be afraid to talk about it. Um, also, I, we've had a question internally. Come up recently actually about awards we had won in the past with our old name and they got piled up and they got put in the corner and I was like, whoa, what are we doing? No. Like, this is who we were. This is how we got here. And, and this is something we're gonna continue to carry forward. We just have a new name, but we're for the same people. We're still here. So.

Mary Blanche:

Okay, Tara, we've got a, um, kinda a spicier version of, of this question for you. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna go there next. Um, now this is, uh, another partner, uh, of one of the acquired firms. And, you know, they're concerned. They're thinking, you know, my. My grandfather built this company, uh, you know, the firm's name reflects his legacy. How, how will that history really, really be able to come through in, in this new brand?

Tara Davis:

That's a good question. There's a, there's a lot of different angles you can take with that, but, but I would challenge that partner to ask their client. If they care what the name is and, and does that and is that person That's working with them? And it's not generally going to be, and so that name that you have that is related to a single person, it has now become a team. It's now representing a team either way, which. Which is a benefit for you, but you don't ever, just like I mentioned, you don't wanna erase that legacy either. And so if you decide to move away from these historic names like this, you're still paying homage to that in your materials and visually and within your offices and, and the way you talk. But, um, but, but knowing that the name. Is not the reason why the clients choose you. It is the relationship that they have that they have always had with you. So the messaging really should be, we're still here. We're still here, but this is now what we can do for you.

Joe Pope:

That's right. Yeah. The, I love how you described that, Tara. It's a we, I can remember clients of ours having that exact same concern, and your answer is pretty much right in line. And you pointed to the research, which is super important because at the end of the day, that brand is not a name or colors or a logo. It's not a building that you were in. Uh, it is the intersection of your reputation and your visibility and that reputation that that person's grandfather had developed so many years ago was established. And we are transitioning that reputation through into what our new organization's going to be. We used research to make sure that we were pulling the best of the best and we're maybe throwing in, redoing some of the stuff that didn't really work all that well.

Tara Davis:

Yeah, absolutely.

Joe Pope:

Heath, what do you think of when you hear the the, my granddad built this place.

Heath Alloway:

Yeah, this, this, I'm gonna laugh ahead of time because this may sound a, a little morbid the way I'm going to describe it, but, you know, I just, hearing Tara talk and hearing the group talk, I think about like, I'll use retirement instead the end of my time. How about that? Because I was gonna say like, at the end of my time, I don't want people to remember me from like as a partner at Soren or whatever firm I'm at. I want them to remember me from. The impact or the difference that I've made in their careers or in our clients and my, I grew up in a family owned business, and I remember my parents going through and they actually sold their business. And so just hearing and thinking about my grandfather and my father, even that legacy, although it was not in public accounting, I'm still trying to live that legacy and everything that I do. And so the, again, maybe that sounds a little morbid, but that, that would be some of my advice of, similar to what Tara said, like, do do your clients. Do they care what that is? It's more of like, what difference can you make for them?

Joe Pope:

Yeah, yeah. Well, we're a PG 13 podcast, so you can be a little morbid, but not too morbid.

Heath Alloway:

Gotcha. Good deal. Good to know. I didn't know that ahead of time.

Mary Blanche:

All right. I wanna pivot us a little bit into the realm of hr. Um, now we've named her Deborah, and she is the head of hr. Um, and she's been recently elevated from one of the acquired firms. And you know, she just feels completely. Exhausted from, you know, feeling like she has to be a, a rumor killer. Uh, you know, people are kind of creating their own assumptions about what's happening, and she's just thinking to herself, you know, gosh, like, what do, what do I tell them? Uh, Tara, what would be be your advice to her in that situation?

Tara Davis:

Um, um, I think a rumor mill is kind of a natural part of, uh, change and I think the best advice is to get out in front of it. I, I kind of lean back on. Everybody has a different communication style. Some people wanna see you face to face, have they wanna be part of a town hall, they wanna be part of a meeting. Other people are gonna be maybe more introverted. They wanna read what's about to change or what's going on, or other people are too busy and they just wanna find the information when they have time. So my best advice is that your message is spread out there on every communication channel that you can think of. So that you're speaking to all different styles. People aren't wondering what's going on and be honest and transparent about what's happening and what it means for them, but also focus on the benefits for people too. There's a lot of positivity that's happening and it's easy to get caught up in the change. And change is scary. And then also. If you have, you know, kind of look at, at how that conversation is happening between different departments. Are there some departments maybe more worried than others? Go to those department leaders and make sure that they understand how to communicate this to them. Give them as much information as you can get in front of everybody in their department, attend one of their meetings. Like I'm, I'm a big proponent of just getting out in front of it and ahead of it, but also answering it transparently. You're trying to build. reputations as you all come together, you're all getting to know each other too, and you need to build that trust and you don't do that unless you're, you're, you're really attacking it nonstop.

Austin McNair:

getting in front of it over communicate as a marketer, I've, I've, I've learned as I've, um, kind of. Gotten more mature in my career, just like the need for over communication. It's like you, you, you almost can't over communicate, I think in the profession, in a modern professional working environment just because people are moving at a very, you know, pace of life. Like work life is just so fast right now, and like that over communication is almost necessary sometimes. Um, Tara, what I'm wondering is like, what is like the, the groundwork that has to. To happen before the over communicating starts. Like what? Like, like what's the essence of like, okay, we're gonna be communicating about this new, you know, brand, uh, acquisition integration project. Like what are like the two or three things that are like, okay, this is the details we have to have so that we can over communicate about them.

Tara Davis:

I think it's best to, um, have some honest conversations with a, a few different types of audiences. So, you know where we went were I, I go back to your client. your community and your employees, if you had conversations with, with each of them. first. and really trying to understand what their co concerns, what their worries are, that's how you get ahead of it. You start to create some messaging that, that stills that fear. but I think that, creates some good groundwork for staying ahead of it in the future. Um, but that would be my, my best advice.

Heath Alloway:

One of the other things that I, I think whether it's HR, partner, whoever it is, I also think taking the time to seek, to understand or to truly listen, because in our world of busy, like I think our list, we think sometimes our listening skills are truly are better than what they actually are. And so sometimes, although it's a rumor mill, if they're hearing things. Sometimes there might be some truth to it. So I would also say, listen to learn, and then that can give you insight to what people are thinking. So then you can step in and help address the rumor mill and the, the negative thoughts. I, I would challenge'em, like if they are only thinking about all the things that could go wrong. Write down what could go right too, because like there's, if you're, this is all you're thinking about, you're missing all of the upside in why we did this in the first place. So I think those can be two, two pretty powerful. Things when it comes to communication and, and trying to address the rumor mill.

Austin McNair:

All right, uh, Heath, we got another one here for you. Um, this spicier, slightly spicier concern or anxiety, is coming from, someone who's just been a bit more regionally based and their concern is. We've been building deep client relationships within our local network for years now, and now one of my clients thinks that we've been bought out by the man. Uh, what should we be telling them now that we've been bought out by the man? We're gonna lose our regional flavor.

Heath Alloway:

Are we at like a level three spice now? So can I give like APIC your answer?

Austin McNair:

Yeah. Oh

Joe Pope:

absolutely.

Heath Alloway:

I would say, I would say it's, it sounds like an excuse, uh, in some ways of like all the reasons why it, it won't work, and I get the relationships that have been built and all those efforts, but the back to relationships, they're built on trust. Just because something like this happens doesn't change trust, could there be change with what we're doing? A hundred percent. Some of that goes to the regional sales person or it goes to the partner of how are you effectively communicating that? Why do they have that perception? And then, you know, thinking about your own messaging of like, what does that mean to the clients? Gosh, you still have me here regionally. You still have my relationship. Oh, by the way, now we have these resources. Skills, expertise and people around the firm that you did not have access to before. So it's thinking about the messaging and, and overcoming those hurdles. Sometimes when you're asked those hard questions, I think people naturally go on the defense and they can kind of fall in that, that trap instead of like being truthful about this is why we're doing it and, and what, what's the value? Why, why is that? Why is that important to you? And so hopefully that helps'em guide through that kind of thought process.

Tara Davis:

Well, and also during that conversation, I think too, you can fire back at the client like, Hey Joe Smith, remember last year when I had to send you elsewhere for your cost egg study? Well, hey, I don't have to do that anymore. Those are. This is, all these decisions are made based on a need and, and a desire to grow in what you can offer your clients. So the full scope of why we're doing what we're doing is so we can better serve our clients. So hopefully the message that you respond with, you know, it supports that

Joe Pope:

I I love hearing how you describe that one too. Tara w Hinge has done significant research into buyer behaviors, and at the end of the day, what, what tips the scale the most is that you solve their problems. So if you weren't able to solve their problems, but they really loved you, they loved working with you, you were that quote, trusted advisor, which you should never use as a messaging term by the way, but you were their trusted advisor. They, they believed in you, and then you kicked'em to the corner because you just didn't have that expertise. Now you do. And so if you can solve those issues and you make that a part of your larger message there, you've got some strength there.

Heath Alloway:

And Joe one, one last thought on like the being bought out, um, I think we have a pretty powerful story to tell there too.'cause there are negative perceptions about private equity coming into our profession, but it was truly a strategic decision. And if you are going to have an outside investor, or even from an m, m and A stand. It has to be the right cultural fit. And I will say, just from my experiences, although yes, we have an outside investor, they've been pretty hands off on how we're running the business and we're running it the way that we see that can make a positive impact. And so I, I know I wouldn't go necessarily like, that's not what I would say to a client, but we have a lot of autonomy and still over well over half owned by CPAs. So there's still a ton of autonomy there.

Joe Pope:

You, I, I love how you talked about the fit. If you are bringing investment with a PE group, for example, where somebody. Didn't necessarily have the right fit. What were some of those cultural pieces that you've seen? Like where PE went bad, for example, or the group had a different vision? Like what, how can you kinda see those things in advance? Is it there certain questions we should be asking?

Heath Alloway:

I, I think so. Some of the stories that I've, I've been told, this is before, like they've ever joined or went the private equity route. It's been on the front end and they, they weren't even red flags. They were, they were fireworks going off of like, it's not the right fit of like. A first 30 minute call with a managing partner, and they're telling'em who they already have lined up to come in and run their business, that that's not gonna fly in our profession. And so it's been examples like that of like, it just rubs people the wrong way and leaves a bad taste in their mouth. Um, there's one other example. I'm trying to think if I should say it or not, but actually I'll, I'll probably hold off on this one because it might give away too much information,

Joe Pope:

We could. We could always, we could always cut it. Heath, I don't know what you're worried about here.

Heath Alloway:

and this was not coming from the person. This is how rumors get started, but from another person. outside investor was talking to a female managing partner and said, who would I need to talk to? And she said, well, I'm the managing partner. No, who, who's the man that I would need to talk to? And I was like, there's no, like, are you kidding me? Like, yeah. So it's just stuff like that

Joe Pope:

I mean, Heath, you're giving pretty much the exact statement though, that we were, we were hoping to get outta this, is if there's smoke, there's gonna be fire here. So like, if you're seeing signs that this is not a good fit, right from the jump, you need to be trusting your gut. And, and there are, you know, smaller organizations, uh, managing partners, those types of folks who are gonna be considering, Hey, is it time or should we, should we listen to this conversation about some outside investment? And you know, if you're thinking 30 minutes in. I mean, you, you gave some real horror stories in your examples, but if you're still thinking 30 minutes in that there's some, there's some issues here, maybe we really do need to take a step back and make sure is this the right fit?'cause there are options. There are lots of options out there.

Heath Alloway:

firms have to answer two questions. Is it good for our people? Is it good for our clients? And if they can't answer that, it's usually a telltale sign.

Mary Blanche:

All right. Well, we still haven't talked about the CPAs. Um, so in this next one I have a CPA here. I'm gonna name him Samuel, because I really like giving my people names here. But you know, he's feeling like. His career path is a little bit out of his hands now, you know, there's a bigger entity involved that's guiding the strategy and, you know, he's wondering how, how is this gonna really impact my career trajectory? Um, Heath, let's go to you with this one first. What would you, how would you respond to that?

Heath Alloway:

for Samuel. I would have the conversation again about looking at like the facts and what's going on. I could point back to you, you look at all of our service line leaders, so we, you have assurance tax, C advisory, those leadership roles were not there before Soren. Now we have people from legacy firms stepping into these leadership roles. We have key industries where we're going to market in. We just announced national regional leaders for, for some of those industries, those positions were not there. When you have these leaders from the local offices that are taking on these new national roles. That's an open door opportunity in their local office to step up, raise their hand, take on more responsibility. And so that, that would be the starting point. Not only that, um, we are investing, whether it's through Upstream Academy or other, you know, um, educational career development type opportunities. There's a lot of that going on. Um, there's coaching, there's feedback, um, so there's all of that going on in investing in our, in our people. And so that is where I would start. And then this year we're. I could be wrong on the exact number, but with some of that change, we are right in the process of rolling out the vision for the path to partner and clear guidance on that. And we are naming, I believe it's 12, 12 new partners this year. And we already have our bench strength outline for potential two to three years down the road. And so there is a world of opportunity to take on. New responsibilities, potentially new service lines. If they want to take a deeper dive in an industry and, and build, you know, their reputation of that industry. It's an open door invitation. I would tell'em to lay out their career path. Where do they want to be three years from now? Now what does it take to get there? And then focus on that.

Austin McNair:

I mean, I, I, I think we have an example of that on the call with us here. I wa I was talking to Tara earlier this week, just a little bit about her career path and her story, and, uh, I don't know, Tara, if you wanna share quickly, but I, I, I was really inspired, you know, hearing you describe kind of your trajectory of like where you started, when you started with Harris and to to, to where you've arrived to today.

Tara Davis:

Yeah. I, that, that's a front desk to national success story. That is, um, I, I mean that's the benefit I've been with, um, the legacy from Harris for 12 years. So. Um, I, I was able to see a lot of different paths, but I started at a firm with 20 people. Um, I actually really intentionally loved small businesses. That was just kind of my bread and butter. I liked to get in there and do everything for them. Administrative. But marketing, marketing is my background and it is also, um, it, it's my passion. And so while I joined a firm that didn't have a dedicated marketing role, I weasel my way in there. Within a year, I was amplifying the things that we were doing. It was kind of a lot of low hanging fruit, to be honest, and, uh, was making a really good impact. But that's all I've ever wanted outta my career, was just to make an impact. Actually, that end of that first year, I also joined. The Association of Accounting Marketing, which I will plug for, because that was really game changer for my career. When you're working at a firm, that you don't have a lot of others that can mentor you in the marketing space, you have to go elsewhere. And, and that was life changing. It opened the door to how to market for this industry specifically. And, uh, I met so many great people over the last 12 years through that association. Um, but I was a department of one for a very long time, about 10 years. I was able to finally bring on an intern after a little while. Uh, and then, um, kind of, uh, like I said, two years ago it was me and an intern and then, you know, we know Soren is happening. We know that we need to start building pretty quickly here to support this. Um, and I brought on two managers next, uh, one to kind of oversee the digital side to support, um. What we were about to roll out. And then one, to support the brand and communication side. So, um, I had been aware of all hats for over a decade, a Department of one. Uh, those are my people, and I still lead a department of one circle at aim. And I, I said, please don't kick me outta here because I will always give back because I know how it feels too. I try to be tackling a lot, so it was a lot of right place at the right time and I'm, I'm grateful that I had a decade under my belt before this happened. Um, I think it gave me a really good perspective though, on how to build this and how to message things and how to help firms. stay local, still feel local, because that's where I came from and that's where I've been my whole career. Um, so I, you know, we're bringing in other resources to help me think national now, but I definitely, that, that's it, it's most important to me that. We don't lose that aspect and that personal touch that we had, and that we build teams the right way to make sure that we're supporting every office. And I look at every office as like an individual and how do I help them? And um, and I think it's hard, but it has been a, a very cool path.

Austin McNair:

Yeah. That's awesome.

Joe Pope:

We we're huge fan, uh, we're huge fans of aim. We've been Hinge has been working with AIM for a decade plus now partnering them when on the budget benchmarking study. Uh, these types of associations across professional services as a. Resource are, IM, is, they're just paramount. It's so important. And when we, uh, when folks can match up with mentors, specifically, uh, folks that can help drive that pathway, that's a great resource. And, and sometimes if you are. The Soren of the world or whatever it might be, just pushing our team members into those types of resources and, and, and supporting them and paying for the conference or things along those lines is the answer. Like it doesn't necessarily have to directly come from the larger firm. It's just providing that pathway for growth, however it may be, and, and it can be unique and different depending on who the, who the staff member is.

Tara Davis:

Definitely that might be a piece of unsolicited advice I might give though. I remember going to AIM conference my first year starting to meet people, and I overwhelmingly identified that I was the smallest firm there for sure. I could not find another single person that had under 20 people and. However, my takeaway from that was that I then realized in that moment how much that tiny firm I worked for valued marketing and the fact that they sent me there. And so my, my advice, I tell this to other marketers and departments all, all the time, advocate for yourself always. I also advocated as a department of one for, uh. Uh, progression in my own career path and title changes in advancement. And I, I kind of got made fun of internally. I was like, oh, who are you managing now? But it's like, it wasn't about that. It's like we also have career trajectories. And by doing that, I was able to align myself to, you know, other departments, um, even as a department of one. So I kind of was pretty intentional over the last decade of that. Like those things are very important to me and my career is very important. I just kind of wanted to show growth, so that helped in the end as well. So my advice is just to not only the partners that are leading firms, advocate for your marketing people to get more resources to start to bring you the ideas and you'll be shocked at what will happen because that resource, there is hundreds of people that do exactly what you do. Like that's pretty rare.

Joe Pope:

It's great advice. It's real sound advice. And for folks who hear this, almost certainly we're gonna clip it and put it in a nice little video clip because that was fantastic. But, uh, being able to hear that type of thing from somebody who's lived, what you've lived here already, uh, in the time period that you've started at that army in one and, and now leading a group of 10 as part of this group that's coming together. It's, it's exactly the type of pathway that by. You know, asking those questions and making those, making that advocacy for yourself what you can accomplish. So we've, we've got one more left and we're gonna take it to a, uh, a person who would maybe be at the other end of their career spectrum. So somebody's been around it as while. Um, I see that it has been, this person's been given a name, Sally. So Mary Blanche got into the show notes and gave my person a name. Uh, Sally is our longest tenured employee, so she's been around 30 years, 40 years, something along those lines. Uh, and, and she comes to the table post-integration and says, you know, I'm looking across the board here, and I've, I've been here a long time. I know where all the bodies are buried. How do I know my voice will be heard in this new organization moving forward? Uh, let's say, Terry, you go first, ladies first.

Tara Davis:

So I feel like the. Biggest benefit that person can contribute is their experience and their expertise, and, and that can. Be an incredible way to move this firm forward is sharing your knowledge so you know, you'll be a part of process changes, you'll be part of technology changes, and those things are harder at the end of your career, but the experience that you have and the way you work with clients and the relationships that you've, um, developed over the time. That's what you can teach to the rest of the people that you've now just joined as well. And so I think if you really just stop and reflect that you have a lot to contribute in that way, you start to see where your voice can be heard. So that would be, uh, that that'd be one area that, um. As you retire, there's a lot that's lost as well. And so, you know, even if you're 10 years from retirement, that's not too soon to start making sure you're bringing other people into relationships and you're starting to teach the younger people coming into your firm how you truly develop. Um, Trusted advisor. What is the next word we're gonna use? I don't know. But how you

Joe Pope:

need to get rid of that

Tara Davis:

that, how you become that for your client, because it's not, um, it's a hard skill and it's one that's just developed over time. So be part of that.

Joe Pope:

Yeah. Heath, how you talking to Sally?

Heath Alloway:

I would tell Sally to make sure to one, just keep speaking up because sometimes. People will sit and not share their thoughts or their opinions, and hopefully that's built into the culture ahead of time. If she did have a voice, be beforehand. So I have, I've watched leaders that will remain silent instead of truly speaking up when they truly believe something. So that would be the starting point. And then, you know, if they are closer to, you know, retiring, they've been there a long time, my guess is they probably have. Some mentors, they probably have some longstanding relationships with those that are stepping into leadership roles. And I would just encourage Sally to continue to lean on that trust in those relationships and making sure that her voice is being heard. Um, so that that's, that's what advice I would give to her.

Austin McNair:

Well, Tara and Heath, I, I just wanna say thank you again for joining us on the podcast. I mean, this has been such a unique perspective. Uh, again, just a remarkable, um, journey. You guys have gone on over the last couple of years here as. Soren has, has launched and these firms have come together. Um, man, I feel like there's still so much left on the table that we could talk about, so maybe we'll do a part two one day, but, uh, where can people learn more, uh, follow you guys and, and kind of follow what's happening with Soren?

Tara Davis:

Yeah, we are, we're pretty active on LinkedIn at the moment. Um, but sorin.com is, is something we're continuing to build out. Uh, even our employees are going there to, our team is going there to really learn what all Sorin can do now. So, um, head on over, check us out.

Austin McNair:

well, thank you guys so much. And, uh, next we'll, we'll turn to our pivotal story.

Mary Blanche:

Forget the old sleepy world of professional services m and a is raging in the lower middle market, and it's being driven by a force that is completely changing the competitive landscape for small and mid-sized firms. We've got the professional services industry report for the first half of 2025 right here, and the data reveals a massive spike in deal volume, particularly fueled by private equity backed buyers. So the question is, is your firm prepared to acquire or are you about to be swallowed whole by a bigger, better funded competitor? Today we have Carl Feldman hinges managing partner here to dive into the data with us.

Karl Feldman:

Thanks for having me. Good to see you guys.

Joe Pope:

Carl, I told you we'd get you on the podcast.

Karl Feldman:

I, you know, finally, I'm finally here. How many? 10, 15 episodes in.

Joe Pope:

I think we're close to 20, but who's counting?

Karl Feldman:

I gotta catch up. It's good. It's good to be here. It's good to be here. You guys have done phenomenal and this is, this is a topic close to my heart.

Joe Pope:

That's, that's, and that's why you're here. Uh, you know, I I, when we were talking about the show prep and the idea that we were having our friends from Soren on talking specifically about the m and a world, uh, we know that of the hinges, you are definitely the person most plugged in.

Karl Feldman:

I have to say it is a fun and exciting time. Lots of opportunities, uh, no matter where you plug in to this kind of scenario. You know, I, I have a personally. My elevator pitch. I was pitching to VCs before I could drink. So this, this feels like fun to me. But, uh, I think there's, you know, coming back to business, there's just a ton of opportunity, whether you're the small, independent firm or the big platform that's bolting together, uh, strategically,

Austin McNair:

this particular research report, that we were, that we're focusing on here It mentions, PE firms are particularly looking for, companies with sticky client relationships, strong recurring revenue. Also kind of diving in deeper to smaller entities with maybe superior technology. You know, how, what are you seeing in the space right now for these, for these firms? Like, how are these good quality deals? What, what is coming together and what's working there on the marketing and branding side, um, as the, to make these deals happen and to make sure that they're good fits.

Karl Feldman:

Mm-hmm. Well, I, I do see a lot coming together, and this is independent of verticals. It could be accounting and financing. It could be in environmental engineering, it could be in technology. Uh, but one of the consistent threads, the ones that seem to have. More positive headwind have really paid attention to culture. And I'm not talking about soft culture, like fluffy culture, as in this is how we do things. You know, is there a methodical go-to market strategy? Is it accountable? You know, is data available even if it's on less sophisticated tools, does that culture exist? That can be augmented, uh, by more access to these tools. Investment, getting complimentary services. I think, uh, a keen attention to that, both by owners and the investors. That seems to really accelerate, uh, the progress and realize the opportunity, uh, when that, when that's not quite there, the fundamentals, then it's more challenging. Not that it can't be done, but it's more challenging.

Joe Pope:

well I think that's, that really has a lot of. Direct connotation and connection to, even if PE wasn't involved, if you're not doing the fundamentals right and you're in a professional services space where relationships and trust and all of these things are paramount, uh, if you're not doing those things, no amount of PE throwing money at you, it's likely to solve that. In fact, they were not gonna pay attention to you in the first place. so, Carl, let me ask you a question then. So if, if, if an organization does decide to go on the offensive and acquire another business. What would you say is the single biggest marketing due diligence step or brand integration type challenge they must solve right from the jump to prevent the deal from being a disaster?

Karl Feldman:

Well, I think what I mentioned earlier around culture and, uh, defining what cultural similarities they are, our goals shared, you know, the approach and thinking. And it's, this is different than collegial respect. You can have technicians and professionals that work fantastic in a fantastic way together, but don't share the same ideas about financial responsibility or attribution or return on investments. Those are the things that you can keep an eye on without any fancy tool set right from the get go. Uh, and then after that, I would say. Making sure that you have evidence of these things, doing your due diligence and understanding what kind of brand equity, and I'm saying real simple reputation and visibility, you know, what does that look like coming in? And you know, hinge is involved on a front end, sometimes afterwards when teams figure out, oh gosh, we should have done this before. Or we've ridden along with, you know, platform brands that are being acquired and. You know, somehow those have a more methodical approach than the others. There are lots of ways we, we come into that mix, but that's, that's a consistent thread, uh, as a real consistent thread. Having that kind of similarity approach, um, and just kind of openness, uh, to understand what are you, what have you got coming in, how complimentary is it? What do you have to build on that can inform valuation and upside?

Austin McNair:

Carl, I'll put you on the spot here. What are you seeing kind of on the ground right now in terms of like, um, things I, I would say success stories or maybe even like an example of like a nightmare. I mean, don't tell us who it is and stuff, but like, I, I, I don't know, just like to bring the words to life here. Do you, you got any stories for us that, that would, you know, resonate with the audience?

Karl Feldman:

what's interesting is that in this m and a scenario. Sometimes the smartest professionals are just completely lost with integration challenges. You know, culture communication is a big, big challenge that is completely underestimated until it comes to the fore. Sometimes that happens before we're involved. Sometimes it's part of our job highlighting exactly what that is and what to do about it. But I think that just like, you know, it's professional services, right? Because. We can do this ourselves. We're we're great consultants, we're great professionals, we're brilliant scientists, technicians, what have you. There is a DIY kind of entrepreneurial push that can get us in trouble. And I, I, you know, it's, it's easy to look in the mirror and always find opportunities that way too, but I think that's, that's the biggest thread that I see, being honest with yourself about that when it's time to call and help. And then actually follow the help and execute and be accountable to results. That's the secret sauce. I mean, it's not anything super fancy.

Austin McNair:

Excellent. Well, thank you so much Carl, and thanks to all of our listeners for, uh, sticking with us here through another great episode of Spiraling Up. On behalf of the whole Hinge team, thanks for listening. Please hit the like and subscribe button if you're watching on YouTube. And for any of our listeners listening across all different audio platforms, leave us a little review. Give us the five stars. It helps build the visibility of the show. Get great guests on and help us just continue to, to grow together. Thank you so much and we'll see you on the next one.