The Human Advantage: Why EQ Beats AI

Now that AI is inundated across everything that we do at work, what are the most  important leadership skills to prioritize in your organization?

In this episode of Spiraling Up, Dr. Mikah Sellers takes on our Blind Rankings challenge — and the results reveal the true skill gaps shaping the future of business leaders.

From EQ and power skills to AI literacy and data fluency, this playful experiment uncovers the capabilities leaders must prioritize as technology accelerates faster than ever. Stay to the end for a Pivotal Story with Hinge Managing Partner, Liz Harr, adding a real-world lens to the trends redefining the professional services landscape.

CHAPTERS:
00:00 Welcome
03:33 Introduction and Guest Welcome
04:17 Emotional Intelligence in Leadership
06:50 Blind Rankings Game Introduction
08:38 Data Fluency and Literacy
10:01 Inspirational Communication
12:04 Relationship Building
18:40 AI Interfacing Skills
24:30 Emotional Intelligence
31:15 Key Skills for Future Marketers
31:27 AI's Role in Seamless Customer Journeys
33:42 Adaptability and Continuous Learning
35:52 Maintaining Core Principles in Marketing
41:20 Ethical AI and Responsible Innovation
48:08 Concluding Thoughts on AI and Leadership
49:17 Introduction to the 2026 High Growth Study
51:44 Key Insights from the High Growth Study
54:20 The Impact of Hosting Events and Conferences
58:04 Final Thoughts and Podcast Sign-Off

Connect with Dr. Mikah Sellers: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikah-sellers/

Transcript

Austin McNair: 0:00

Now that AI is inundated across everything that we do at work, what are the most important leadership skills that we have to bring to work every day? Well, in today's episode of Spiraling Up, we are interviewing an AI workforce. Futurist named Dr. Micah Sellers, and he's going to blind rank the leadership skills that we need to have as we go into the future as marketers and business leaders. Welcome everyone. This is spiraling up with Hinge. Welcome everyone to Spiraling Up the podcast for professional services, business leaders and marketers. My name is Austin McNair, and as always, I'm joined with my co-hosts and colleagues, Mary Blanche Kramer

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 0:44

Hey, Austin.

Austin McNair: 0:45

and Senior Joe Pope. What's up, Joe?

Joe Pope: 0:49

I don't have nearly the command of foreign languages to be able to come in with something witty, so not much brother.

Austin McNair: 0:58

Thanks everybody for watching today's episode. Please be sure to like and subscribe if you're watching on YouTube and for all of you listening on the audio channel. Leave us a review. You can send all podcast feedback to us via email to podcast@hingemarketing.com. And yeah, we we have an amazing episode, uh, for you today. Uh, we are talking at the end of the episode with hinges managing partner. Liz Har. We're gonna get a little bit of a preview about the upcoming high growth study, which is very exciting. Uh, new project, new data. Dropping here, uh, in, I don't know, like less than just a few weeks here. Uh, and then. Before that we were talking to Dr. Micah Sellers, which guys for me, everyone's talking about ai, everyone's talking about how AI's gonna be shifting the workforce, the workplace we saw this week, um, where this past month, really just how many layoffs have been happening across different industries. A lot of people are saying that these are AI related, uh, layoffs. But I, it's just a good time right now to be thinking about this issue, about how is AI changing work? Specifically, like what skills do we need to develop as leaders, uh, and as marketers to kind of enter this new area? Era. So I, I, I'm very excited. Joe. I know you talked to Micah ahead of, uh, the interview. Uh, what were you most excited to talk about?

Joe Pope: 2:16

Yeah, he was introduced to us through, uh, Liz, who you referenced, is gonna join us at the end of today's episode. Uh, and, and they were actually colleagues years and years of year ago. Uh, but he's gone on this super interesting journey, uh, of discovery. Honestly, he's gone through all of these higher education steps and learned a lot about how there's an intersection nowadays between emotional intelligence and technology and that if. Leaders in the workforce, especially in the professional services and business to business type workforces aren't acknowledging this and figuring out how those two factors come together. They will get left behind and get left behind extremely quickly. Uh, I think, uh, the Reed you talked about, it is a futurist and he's very much in that realm. It was an extremely exciting opportunity to be able to talk with them in the lead up to this podcast, and I think the audience is really gonna get to learn something interesting today.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 3:06

Yeah, I thought it was awesome the way he brought to such unique, um, and important topics and kind of brought them together. I think it's a really interesting take that a lot of people are gonna be interested to hear.

Austin McNair: 3:16

Great. So if, if you guys are watching and you wanna find out where will, uh, Dr. Micah Sellers rank these important leadership skills in terms of their importance now that AI is the, uh, the dominant narrative across the board? Stay tuned. Let's, uh, let's go ahead and go meet Micah. All right. Well, we are incredibly fortunate to be joined today by Dr. Micah Sellers. Micah is a workforce futurist and an enterprise transformation architect, and the author of a compelling new book, forging Emotionally Intelligent Leaders in the Age of AI with two decades of experience. Previous roles as a Chief Innovation Officer and Chief Digital Officer, and a doctoral in organizational leadership. Micah is the ultimate expert on bridging the gap between cutting edge technology and human potential in the C-Suite. So Micah, welcome to Spiraling Up.

Mikah Sellers: 4:12

thanks so much, Austin. I'm glad to, to join you. Uh, thanks Joe and Mary, I'm, I'm looking forward to the conversation.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 4:17

Micah, one of the things you talk a lot about in your book is, uh, is that emotional intelligence is the defining human advantage in an AI driven world. Can you talk a little bit kind of how you've come to that conclusion?

Mikah Sellers: 4:30

The reality is, you know, we're at a point now, AI's been around forever. We all, we can all recognize that, right? We're going back to like early machine learning. AI is not a new thing, but generative AI and AI, as we we're, we're, we know it today, right, has really evolved in like the last 10 years. And what you're seeing now with, with AI orchestration, AI tool chaining, uh, the coming right, uh, wave of ai, which will be. Phenomenally different than what we're seeing today. 2027, 2029, we're gonna see ai, you know, essentially operating almost autonomously with less human in the loop intervention. And we're seeing now AI replacing information workers right across the board. You know, whether, you know, you're looking at things like HR or accounting and finance, you're looking at operations, supply chain. We're looking now, marketing and sales, right? Companies are starting, you know, to look at what's the ratio of human workers to agents and, and the reason that em, emotional intelligence both, well, we'll talk about power skills and generative skills'cause they're very different, right? But power skills like emotional intelligence, moral and ethical discernment are really important because as you're acting as a human in the loop, you know, kind of manager to ai. You know, the ability to recognize, you know, um, a challenging situation for a customer, right? When the AI is actually, you know, executing its workflows, being able to intervene and like kinda hit the pause button is really, really important. You know, ai, you know, um, can synthesize. Emotional intelligence. Right? You like it can, it can, it can synthesize empathy, right? But it's not an actual felt response. You know, emotional intelligence is, is uniquely human, right? We feel emotions, right? We, you know, we have the ability to kind of dive back in our memory banks and think about a time, you know, where we. Needed empathy. A machine can't do that, right? Uh, machines can, you know, can do probabilistic, you know, um, assumptions of a, a moral or an ethical decision, but it can't do that based on your, your actual lived experiences, which is really important, you know, for us to continue to, and interject that into the process as we allow AI to take on more and more of this information work.

Austin McNair: 6:49

It, it makes a lot of sense Micah. And honestly, it's the best introduction and primer into kind of the challenge or game that we want to play with you today on our segment and spiraling up, which, uh, is a game of blind rankings. So, Micah, what our team did, you know, having reviewed your book, is we took a list of some technology skills, like some, you know, some little bit. Softer, but some more you like, you know, strict technology skills and also some human skills. And we made a list and what we want you to do, Micah, is rank them on, uh, on the scale of one to 10, uh, and you get one slot for each answer. So number one is gonna be the thing that you think is the most important. So, uh, the kicker is you don't know what's coming next, so you gotta be careful where you place things on the list, and that's kind of the fun of the game. But we've got 10 things that we want to go through with you today and just kind of ask you questions about, but to have you rank them, how does, how does that sound

Mikah Sellers: 7:46

Well, well, yeah, without knowing that right. I could either come out looking like a genius or you know, like a total IBU soul.

Austin McNair: 7:54

that.

Joe Pope: 7:55

Well, I think that's, I think that'll be part, part of the fun here, Mike. And what, and what we'd love for you to do is to just share some of your thoughts on these skills. Uh, so as you kind of go through, you can, in a sense, explain why we feel this is in the middle of the board or why this is number one, things along those lines. And if you see one that obviously is poorly ranked as we get further down the line, feel free to explain where. You might have made, made a different decision had you known further on and ahead,

Austin McNair: 8:21

all right, Joe, uh, you wanna kick us off? What's our, what's the number one? We randomized the list here, so this is a random list. Micah doesn't know the list. Uh, the hinge team here we're, we kind of shuffle everything up. So, uh, Joe, what's our, what's our opening thing on our list here?

Joe Pope: 8:34

Yeah, random order, random order generator.com helped us out with this. But number one on the list is, uh, data fluency and literacy. So we're defining this as the skill to translate data, campaign data, marketing data, anything along those lines into a proven business outcome and challenges, underlying assumptions about performance. Where do we feel that data fluency and literacy falls for leaders in 2026?

Mikah Sellers: 9:01

Let's go with five.

Austin McNair: 9:02

so Michael, when it comes to data fluency and literacy, what is in, what is important for those, that skillset for marketing leaders?

Mikah Sellers: 9:09

I think it's decidedly less technical than it was, you know. Four or five years ago, I think with, you know, AI assisted data analysis, you know, the really, the critical things are, you know, understanding, you know, what good structured data looks like. You know what is clean, you know, understanding the data sources, understanding how to plug those in, you know, for AI assisted analysis. Um, which is in, you know, becoming increasingly more the norm, uh, than, you know, the data, the type of data analysis may maybe we did four or five years ago. So, you know, while it's, it's a, a super important skill, right? For any CMO, any CSO, anybody, you know, who's, you know, kind of at that CRO level, I don't think it's most the most important skillset.

Austin McNair: 9:54

Got it. The on on the other end of the spectrum, I think we're, we're gonna swing to more of the human side here. The next one. That we want to have you rank is inspirational communication. So thinking about leadership positions and just in general, having the ability to articulate a marketing vision to stakeholders to motivate team members, uh, to achieve high performance, where would you rank, uh, the ability to be like a strong, inspirational communicator, uh, you know, as a, as a skillset moving forward?

Mikah Sellers: 10:27

Let's throw that at number four.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 10:29

I like that. What, uh, talk to us a little bit about your, your thinking there.

Mikah Sellers: 10:33

Yeah. I mean, you know, when you think about, you know. Transformational leadership styles, right? Or, you know, leaders who are, are really good at, at being able to articulate a vision and kinda get everybody harmonized onto, onto, you know, a single lane right of, of, of strategy or single lane of thinking. It's really important and it, and it is, it is a, a, a skill set that, you know, you develop over time. You know, a lot of people say, you know, people are innate leaders. I don't believe that. Right. I, I don't believe you're that there are like exceptional born leaders. I think you become a exceptional leader. By being tested by fire, by making mistakes, right? By having been led by bad leaders, right. Who were incapable of inspirational communication. Right. And I, I'm sure we've all had those leaders in our lives at one point in time. Um, and you know, as, as you, as you refine your ability, right, to be a good communicator, to understand what it takes to motivate others, you know, and to, to align people, I think. You know, obviously your, your, your ability to execute just increases exponentially. I think it's a really important skill. Again, I don't think it's top three, uh, but you know, I, I would definitely maybe slot it in there at four, not knowing what's coming next.

Joe Pope: 11:54

That make, that makes a ton of sense. Uh, Micah, definitely. I think it actually plays really well with our next one. Mb do you wanna jump in with it?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 12:00

Yeah, I was gonna say, I wanna pull on the people thread, uh, a little bit more there. So, uh, relationship building is our, uh, third, uh, skill for you to rank. And we're defining this as, you know, really building those genuine trust-based relationships that, you know, directly drive sales, long-term client loyalty and, and also referrals.

Mikah Sellers: 12:21

Yeah, well, re relationship management is a, is a core pillar and emotional intelligence, right? Um, when you, you know, you look at, you know, Daniel Goldman's, you know, emotional social competence. I. I would put, you know, relationships at three. And, and it's not just relationships with your clients, it's external and internal stakeholders, right? I mean, at end of the day, you know, your, your ability to build, you know, a, a relationship with a client as a trusted advisor is as important as it is to develop that with your, you know, your dotted line peers, you know, uh, the people who, who you may be reporting to, whether it's the CEO, the board, whomever, but also as a trusted advisor. You know, to your direct reports, right? You know that you are there right, to be a resource to them. And a lot of that is in relationship building. You have to establish trust, enough trust for them to come to you with those challenges, to feel like they're in a psychologically safe space to ask questions without, you know, feeling like they, they may, you know, have the wrong answer and, and be punished for the, for saying something that they feel is, you know, either inaccurate or, or, you know. Doesn't necessarily, you know, hit the nail, if that makes sense.

Joe Pope: 13:34

It does.

Austin McNair: 13:36

Micah, there's a, there's a lot of us, you know. Younger marketers who have kind of started our careers in this like era of like a lot of digital marketing and digital marketing strategies that aren't really, you know. It's directly connected to relationship building. Uh, so there's a lot of us that the relationship building aspect is something that, um, is a new kind of skillset that we're trying to grow as we develop our careers and open up, you know, and broaden our network of relationships. What kind of advice would you offer people that are kind of like in, in their mid careers and they're trying to open up their, their book of relationships and they're trying to. To, to deepen relationships? Like what, what kind of things do you think they should be doing on a weekly or even daily basis to, to, to challenge themselves and to get out there and build more relationships?

Mikah Sellers: 14:27

be value added, right? Like, you know, one of the things, you know, that I just really, you know, detest right? Is, you know, we're, we're all on LinkedIn, right? Um, and we get a lot of people who. Reach out to us on LinkedIn and you know, the first thing they do is they either ask you for something or ask you to buy something. And you know, I'm, that, to me, that puts me off, right? Um, I'm all about like, what value are you bringing to me and what value am I bringing to you? So if I'm gonna reach out to somebody, right, the first thing that I'll do is I'll tell them how I can add value to them. For free. Right. You know, whether it's, you know, tapping into my network, you know, um, helping, helping them to enter a new space, a new market, um, helping them, you know, with a problem that they might have, you know, just saying, Hey, I'm a resource. I'm here, I'm here to help. Right. Um, I think that's, that's critically important. Uh, you know, and I think, you know, a lot of the reality is, you know, we don't. Train people for this. Right. And, and in, you know, undergraduate education, right? We don't train them how to build and, and, and, and, and strengthen relationships. You know, everything that happens, you know, in college is real, real, you know, outside of your friend group, right? Is really. Transactional. Right. Um, in, in

riverside_dr._mikah sellers_raw-synced-video-cfr_spiraling_up studio_0386: 15:47

nature, in terms, in terms of,

Mikah Sellers: 15:49

you know, even the relationships, you, relationships you have with professors is very transactional. You know, uh, especially if you're at a larger university, right? Where, where you may, you know, actually engage with a professor once or twice, you know, throughout a semester. The rest of the time you're talking to TAs, right? So like you don't really build those skills where you're trying to build relationships. At the next level above you, right? So I think it's important you know that when you get into the, into enterprise, right? That you reach out to people who have that experience and help have them help you build that skillset.

Joe Pope: 16:23

Yeah. I, I think seeking out those opportunities as early as possible Makes sense. I'm, I'm hearing you talk about the undergraduate. Experience. I couldn't agree more. I mean, it's, it is an experience where I feel like I learned more skills being a part of clubs and fraternity than I did from, uh, the actual ed educational process. And certainly how you invest in your own education can certainly play a factor there. And I. Found myself gravitated to communication and all those types of elements versus, uh, well, pre-medicine, which is why I never ended up being a doctor. But regardless, I mean, like those types of things can certainly be, uh, a part of their journey. Right. So whether it's at the educational level or early on in career, mid-career, seeking out these examples of folks, uh, whether it's leaders or others that you feel have done really well relationships. I, I, I gravitate to that very much so.

Mikah Sellers: 17:13

Yeah. You know, I, I, I think, I think you're absolutely right and I, you know, the reality is I think, you know, the kind of pedagological approach, right? The methodologies we use for educating undergrads, like it's really antiquated. It's kinda based on like a 1950s era, you know, um, method of teaching students and even the curriculums that we develop are still rather antiquated. Uh, I also think there's a, a larger problem, right? I, I think one of the challenges that we see is that, you know, we get, and I, I experienced this as, you know, A CDO, as a CIO and in my past, right, where you get people who are coming in straight outta school, and a lot of times organizations don't have. The right development curriculum in place. Right. The l and d curriculum to, you know, upskill and reskill people as needed. Right. Um, as we're looking for them to advance, having the right scaffolding in place, having, you know, kind of mentor protege relationships in place to provide kind of continuous guidance. Right. And a lot of times. People don't get that until they run into a wall or a manager sees that they've run into a wall, and now it's like, oh, we're gonna help you develop your skills. Right. I, I think it's important, you know, to kind of build that as an anchor into your infrastructure. Right. Um, so that people feel supported, that they have all the tools they need to continuously develop.

Austin McNair: 18:33

Hmm.

Joe Pope: 18:35

So let's talk about some of these tools now with this next one specifically. Uh, and we've already hinted at it a few times, but how would you put the skill of actively interfacing with AI in terms of importance on this list? So when we're saying that we're meaning mastering the techniques required to effectively create together, prompt, supervise these tools to maximize their efficiency and the output you receive from'em, where are we going?

Mikah Sellers: 19:03

Two.

Joe Pope: 19:05

Oh, all right. So we've been working our way up the list.

Austin McNair: 19:09

Yeah, we have.

Joe Pope: 19:10

where we're gonna

Mikah Sellers: 19:11

Yeah.

Joe Pope: 19:12

So two is important. Uh, tell us more.

Mikah Sellers: 19:16

look, I mean, I, I think, you know, the reality is, you know, we're gonna see. In the next four to five years in particular. Right. You know, in the, in the, the, large enterprise space, probably 25 to 30% reduction in force, you know, across the

riverside_joe_pope_raw-synced-video-cfr_spiraling_up studio_0385: 19:38

So it's

Mikah Sellers: 19:39

A a almost every we saw what, you know, this recently happened with AWS, we had a 14,000 people at the corporate level, right. Almost all of that was driven by genic ai. Um, you're, you know, I think there's a three legged stool that's gonna come into play. And in, in the very near future in in AI literacy, right, technical literacy. As it relates to AI is one of those stools, one of the legs of the stool rather. And then the other two are power skills and generative skills. But if you don't understand, you know, um, ai, all you do is produce slop, right? AI slop. And we see it all the time. You know, people putting out ai lop from a marketing perspective, it's just, it's trash content, right? It's content that doesn't look like much thought was put into it. You're not, you're not using the right prompts, you're not really, you're not really drilling in right. To, to get the AI to actually. Design the content for the audience that you're targeting. It's just faster, faster is not better. Right? Um, so it, it, it takes, I think when you look at, you know, actively interfacing with ai, a lot of that right. Is what I would classify as generative skills, right. And that's, you know, your ability to think critically, right? Uh, your, your ability to understand, um, what, what creativity looks like, what innovation looks like, right? Um. You know, your, your, your ability to understand how the AI is actually working, right. So that you can actually engage and, and ask the right questions.'cause that, that's the most important thing, right? Is asking the right questions. And, and the reality is, you know, going back to, you know, to the, the undergraduate, you know, thing we're talking about earlier. A lot of times we don't train people Right. How to ask really, really good questions. And, and I think that's increasingly important when we're, when we're talking about interfacing with ai, you know, it's Geico, right? Garbage in, garbage out. You ask a garbage question, you get a garbage response.

Austin McNair: 21:33

So, I mean that that aligns you, you mentioned the, the upskilling piece of that and you, you kind of. Um, talk, you touched a little bit there on how maybe some forms of, uh, traditional academia might be behind or a little bit disconnected for those of us, like already in the workforce, already actively trying to use and practice these tools. I mean, o other than just rolling up your sleeves and, and like using them and interfacing with them directly, like. What resources do you turn towards or do you recommend, um, people use to, um, you know, upskill this at, at, at a faster level?

Mikah Sellers: 22:10

Yeah, I mean, you know, look, I'm a, I'm a big believer in lifelong learning. I mean, like, I'm sure if you've looked at my cv, like you've seen, like, I basically spent, t 20 years in school, right? So to me that was really Um, you know, when I was, when I was working, um, uh, through the academic blocks in my, in my, in my dissertation, um, I was actually working for a company called Ever Rise, and I was doing AI implementations. Um, at scale for companies in, in, in Asia. But when I, when I took the sabbatical, you know, to kind of focus full-time, all my studies, you know, I was, I was noticing right, the rapid pace, right of the development of new generative models. And, you know, the, the coming rate of genic ai and for me, I, I knew that I need, I needed to upskill, right? So I took a step back. I signed up for a course at the University of Texas, the McComb School of Business, AI for Leaders, right? Which was a very broad ranging course. Everything from machine learning all the way through AI orchestration, uh, both theory and application. But you know, even after completing that, I go to Coursera like weekly, right? I'm in, I'm in Coursera looking for a new course. I'm doing a course right now on generative AI for hr, right? Like, it's, it's really important to really kind of think about what are your areas of opportunity, right? I wanna call'em weaknesses. They're just areas of opportunity. You know, what, what, what, what skills do you need to fill? And if you don't know that. Maybe reach out to somebody, right? Who's a level or two ahead of you, right? And, and really, really proficient and say, Hey, like, you know, can you help me with like a self-assessment, right? Help me fill, figure out the gaps that I need to fill in, in my, in my knowledge base in order to be really, really, you know, um, beneficial, right? Uh, or, or, or, you know, more, more so how can I be an asset to the organization, right? By, by filling in these skills.

Austin McNair: 24:06

Uh, I love that advice. Um, all right, the number one spot is still for grabs here. Um, I, I anticipate, I know what's about to happen. Um, Joe, uh, oh, it's actually on me. I got the next one. Yeah. So I anticipate, uh, I know where, where this next one's going. So with the number one spot available and kind of the bottom of the list open for us, uh,

riverside_austin_mcnair_raw-synced-video-cfr_spiraling_up studio_0387: 24:29

Dr. Sellers,

Austin McNair: 24:30

um, our, our next one is emotional intelligence.

Mikah Sellers: 24:35

Yeah.

Austin McNair: 24:36

which actually I would like you instead of me giving kind of our interpretation of this, like. How do you define emotional intelligence? Um, and, you know, where would you put it on, on the list?

Mikah Sellers: 24:46

up? Number one and

Austin McNair: 24:49

Okay.

Mikah Sellers: 24:50

Pec es, especially for leaders. Right. You know, um, fundamentally it's about the ability to understand and recognize, uh, our emotions, right? To recognize and understand and influence the emotions of others. Right. When you think about, you know, kind of, you know, as I mentioned, you know, Goldman's esky, right? And we're, we don't have to get into all of the, the underlying, um, components of this, you know, broadly, you know, you could bucket that into self-awareness, self-management, right? That's on your side of the equation. And on the other side of the equation is, you know, relationship management and social awareness, right? So we're, we're thinking about ourselves, right? Like, you know, how do I recognize, you know, when I am in a heightened state of emotion, right? How do I recognize, you know what, I might be broadcasting to others, right? You know, I, I've, I've worked for leaders in the past, right? Who, you know, they, they, they, they tried to self-regulate. They tried to, you know. Kind of put things in the, in the background and not let it out. But you can see emotion on your face, right? Uh, you can see when somebody's stressed out or when they're angry, and being able to recognize that and being able to process it and then adapt to the situation so that you're not, you know, influencing others, right? It's like, you know, you're con I call it cont emotional contamination, right? Emotional, you know, uh, you know, you're, you're, when you put that out there, others receive it, and all of a sudden now. They're, they're, they're gonna respond differently than they would if you had, you know, been aware of it, self-regulated and adapted to the situation. So I think, I think, you know, emotional intelligence is critically important when it comes to managing and understanding our emotions. But when it comes to relationship management, you know, being able, you know, being able to understand, right, uh, personal dynamics, right. How we're, we're relating to others or, or how we're not relating to others, right? How we're not, you know, um. Uh, making the right connections, being able to understand, you know, um, di the dynamics within the organization being, you know, being aware of what's happening in your environment, you know, your team dynamics. Right. You know, it's, it's really funny when I, I remember when I went back to, to Wharton to go to the advanced management program. I did a disc analysis. Which is, you know, not nearly as, as deep as the esky, for example. But, you know, I did a disc and I, you know, I have one perception of how I was operating as a leader, and then when I got to the a NP and we unpacked my disc, I was like, wow, man, I got a lot to work on. You know, I wasn't, I wasn't as emotionally intelligent as I thought I was. So, you know, I, I, I took the time to unpack, you know, the areas of opportunity I had as a leader and, and to, you know, really refine those skills. So when, when I went back, you know, I, I could, I could engage as a more emotionally intelligent, more emotionally available leader.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 27:47

I, I have to ask, um, I, so I'm getting my MBA right now, and we actually did that same assessment. What, um, are you a, D, EIS, or C?

Mikah Sellers: 27:59

Well, the, the disc is a, is a range of things, right? Like they, they, the readouts are, are like, you know. Different than DISC. I can't remember exactly what my readout was. It was like 12 years ago. But you know, needless to say, there are, there are a bunch of the dimensions, right, that. Uh, I fell short on, you know, in particular, right when it, when it came to my, my relationship skills, you know, I wa I wa I was definitely mu at the time, a much more of a command and control kind of a leader, right? Like essentially setting the agenda, you know, providing, providing what I thought was really good direction, but not necessarily being as supportive, um, as I could have been, and not necessarily being as empathetic, right to the, to the workloads. That I was doling out. Right. Not understanding, you know, how that impacted people's, you know, work life balance and, you know, their, their, their, their ha their happiness quotient, which is really important as a leader. Right. You know, you need to be able to. Ensure that you're providing people, uh, with, with adequate amount of work, but, but not overtaxing them. Because at some point, like, you know, there's a, there's a, um, you're getting a negative return, right? You know, when, when, when you're, you're asking them to do too much, all of a sudden, you know, the, the, the quality of that work is gonna deteriorate, right? So you want to, you wanna make sure that you're providing the balance and also understanding, you know, how that's translating right to their, to their, their balance at home.

riverside_mary-blanche_raw-synced-video-cfr_spiraling_up studio_0388: 29:25

I just wanted to ask because I found a lot of value. And like the two perception, right? Like the, uh, the way you perceive yourself, like versus actuality, and then how you can like, take those learnings and then like bring more, like bring forth more authenticity, like through the different learnings of the assessments. So, no, I just found that really interesting.

riverside_dr._mikah sellers_raw-synced-video-cfr_spiraling_up studio_0386: 29:43

Yeah. You know, you hit on something there, which is really important, right. Which is self identity. And I think, you know, as, as leaders, right? Um, you know, the identity that we see, right? That mirror that we see our, our reflection in the mirror, how we perceive that is very different than how others perceive it. And I think it's really critically important, right? For, to use things like the disc or other types of assessments, you know? To, uh, help us to improve, to help us understand right where, where we are positionally as leaders. I think a lot of times, you know, we. We try to evaluate ourselves, but the reality is we have too much bias. We're not really critical of ourselves. Um, and it's important right, to, to, to not just, you know, to do the gut check, like with, you know, with your, maybe your upline, right? Or with your peers.'cause again, you know, depending on the, how, the nature of that relationship, they may not necessarily be as comfortable in telling you the truth, right? Uh, as, as the truth that you really need to hear. Right. Using these tools, using these assessments, or even going outside, right, to get executive coaching right. Um, is, is is a great way, right, for us to develop, um, that skillset. I, and I think it's, I think it's probably, again, I, you know, emotional intelligence from my perspective, you know, in, in this, you know, age of AI is absolutely the most important skill set.

Austin McNair: 31:14

Excellent. All right, well, we've got the, the bottom of the list here that we, we still want you to, to rank. we can go through these ones a bit, uh, a bit quicker now that we've got your, your top five here. Uh, and BI think you got the next one.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 31:26

Yeah, I do. Okay. So the next one is seamless customer journey design. Uh, and so we're defining this one as designing and managing personalized, cohesive experiences across digital and physical channels. Okay.

riverside_dr._mikah sellers_raw-synced-video-cfr_spiraling_up studio_0386: 31:41

I'm gonna throw that at nine. And the, and, and, and the reason I'm throwing it at nine right, is, you know, AI is just so good at that now, right? If, if you're, if you're providing it with all the right data, right? You're, you know, you're, you're. Building those personas, right, that you can bake into the system, you know, you're providing, you know, transactional data, you know, from previous journeys, and you can see all the breakpoints. AI can orchestrate like a, a seamless customer journey really well, and it's adaptive. It can do it, it can make adaptations in real time, right? So. I think, you know, what we used to, you know, look at as kind of journey mapping, um, is a little different in the age of AI than it was say, you know, five, even five years ago.

riverside_joe_pope_raw-synced-video-cfr_spiraling_up studio_0385: 32:27

Uh,

Joe Pope: 32:27

so you would say that maybe 10, 15 years ago if you were asked this question, I'm guessing it would be in the top half.

Mikah Sellers: 32:33

Yeah, it would probably be closer to like a five or a six, you know, um, certainly if we're just looking at it from a. You know, a, a competitive standpoint, like from the brand's perspective, right? Being able to be competitive. It's certainly, it's, it's not that it's not important anymore. I just think ai, uh, is so much better at doing this, right, with the da, with the data sources that we could provide today. And it's in the past, right? Like we, we would do these things in cycles, right? We, we would. You know, architect a, you know, customer journey. We, we would implement it and then we would go back and we'd look at the data and we'd see, you know, where were we, right, where were we wrong? Right. And then we would, we would, you know, redo it. The reality is now this could be done in real time. Right. You know, it, it could actually adaptations in real time and, you know, looking at, you know, personas right. In buckets and, you know, kind of changing, right. The routes that, that the customers are going through. Your systems.

Joe Pope: 33:29

So I like the angle of learning and the fact that AI can help do that at lightning speed. Let's talk about learning though, and, and I, this is where this gets hard, right? Because we chose 10 that we felt like were important skills, but we only have the bottom of the list. Where would you put adaptability and continuous learning, Mr. Dr. Mic Sellers with your years of education behind you? Where are we going with that one?

Mikah Sellers: 33:52

Now, now I'm gonna have to put it at six because I filled up the, it's certainly important, you know, um, for sure. I think, you know, and adaptability, right? Um, is again, you know, we're, we're looking at, you know, kind of almost a combination, right? Of power skills and generative skills. I, I think, you know, our ability to. See challenges kind of in real time to be able to, to critically think about how to, how to, how to change, right? Is really important. But then on the other side of that, right, is also the emotional intelligence, right? Being able to not panic, right? Being able to self-regulate, being able to sense in others, right? Like the panic, right, of a situation that may be emerging or something that's changing within the organization and then being able to. Manage and lead through that change, right. With, with, with emotional intelligence, uh, being able to understand, you know, what, what does adaptability mean in the context of your organization? You know, whether you have, you know, the, the, the human or the capital resources necessary, right? To adjust in real time. And if not, like what, what are you gonna bring to the table? In terms of ingenuity, not innovation, but ingenuity, right? Um, you know, that kind of MacGyver ish type of skillset, right? Where it's bailing wire and, and duct tape to fix something in real time.

Joe Pope: 35:13

That sounds good. Yeah, no, I, I think you did a great job in, uh, getting it up higher, even though the spaces didn't necessarily exist for you.

Austin McNair: 35:21

I, I like how our, our random order generator, uh, is, is stacking these two together. Um, Dr. Sellers, I'll tell you, I, me, Joe Mary Blanche, we're all big sports fans. Uh, and for me especially, I can tell you I've always gravitated towards those coaches that just emphasize like, we have a strong identity. We are, you know. We are a defense first team, or whatever they say. Right. Um, I, I've always just resonated with leaders that come out and say like, these are our core principles. These are like what we stand for. So I wanted to to, to, you know, coming off the back of adaptability there, um, how about maintaining core principles? Uh, so like guiding marketing, marketing decisions with strong integrity, clear ethical standards, uh, even when. Data or decisions might be kind of at a crossroads or more ambiguous.

Mikah Sellers: 36:13

Yeah. Again, you know, not knowing where these things were gonna come in, I would've probably put that higher on the list. Right. But we're gonna have to go a seven now that I don't have the ability to move it further up, you know? And, and you know, I think I mentioned before, you know, in terms of the, the, the three legs of the stool, right? You know, those. Power skills, right? Uh, those, those gender skills, this, this is one of those that goes into the power skill bucket, right? Emotional and moral discernment are really, really important. Um, and again, you know. We're not necessarily born with these things, right? Like, these are things we learn from life lessons, right? Both experienced and observed, right? We see, you know, we learn right and wrong, you know, by making mistakes, right? Um, there's some things innately of, of course, we know are right and wrong, but you know, when it comes to making you, I'll give you an example on the age of ai, right? You know. W we, we have the ability, right? Let's say, you know, using a genetic AI right, to wipe out 80% of our human workforce, right? Um, is, is it the right thing to do? You know, that's, that's, that's, that's a tough question, right? Um, you know, if you're in a Fortune 500, it might be right for the shareholders, right? But, but is it right for the people that have, have given you, you know, their blood, sweat and tears, maybe for. A decade or more. Right. Uh, to put them on the Uh, you know, you know, when we are, you know, developing a new, a new agent right. Tying it into data sources that we may, that, that might be a little fast than loose. Right. Um, is it, is it the right thing to do? Maybe it's expedient, right? But is it the right thing to do? We've seen, for example, you know, generative ai, right? That was tied into. Some bad data sources and all of a sudden, you know, it's producing some slightly racist responses. You know, um, you, you, you know, uh, a leader could have said, Hey, um, maybe, you know, tying it into this particular data source isn't the best idea. Right? And let me give you five or six reasons why, right? Um, you know, using that imal and, and ethical discernment, right? Uh, to hit the pause button and say, I know we need to move at speed, but maybe right now is the time to actually slow down. And let's think more critically about this decision before we move forward.

Joe Pope: 38:31

Yeah. And I think you're getting a lot of head nods here from the millennial mid-career people that you have on the call here. In terms of what we've seen and, uh, certainly experienced through our own, uh, experiences in the professional space. It's, it's, uh. It's gonna be continuing to be a big talking point. We're, we're hearing in the news left and right. Uh, large organizations who may be catering more to shareholders at the moment than they are to their workforce are gonna have to grapple what some of these realities are. And, and eventually everything comes due. Uh, you'll have, uh, folks that will gravitate to organizations that care and, uh, and then ones who. Ones who don't care, organizations that don't care, they'll start to lose some of that str uh, that strength in their brands. Uh, that is also important in maintaining their organizational structure in, in decades to come.

Mikah Sellers: 39:22

Everything is moving so fast today, right? And, and AI right, moves so fast. And the evolution, right, of ai, the introduction of new models, new capabilities, is happening so fast. You know, I think it's really, really critical for leaders to know when to slow down. Right? know, when you know when, when, when to make, you know, when to take the time, right? To make more deliberate decisions about how to speed up as opposed to just jumping on and going, all right, let's, let's just keep going. Break no breaks, right? No breaks. Let's just keep, let's just keep this train going because we've seen, right? Um, where to your point. You gain efficiencies, but you also lose, you know, some of the, some of those efficiencies. Right. And I, and I, you know, I give great example, right? Like, you know, I'm sure you have the same disdain, right? For, you know, um, AI driven, you know, customer experience, you know, support, right? Like when, you know, I just noticed, you know, it was about two months ago, maybe three months ago, that for example, Squarespace cut off all human support. There is no. Human support whatsoever. Right. And I, I have a couple websites on there, um, and it's like, really there's nobody I could talk to. My only option, right, is, is, you know, AI driven, email based support. You know, like I used to love Squarespace. The brand relationship I had for a decade was really, really solid. Now I just kind of ambivalent about them. It was like, yeah, you know, it's, it's an okay platform and I use it because it's easy. But not because I love the brand. When I used to have, you know, humans that I could reach out to and who, who could empathize maybe with the problem that I was having and kinda helped me walk through it, you know, definitely had a stronger connection to the brand.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer: 41:12

Dr. Sellers, you talk a lot about, um, you know, this AI driven world that we live in, um, and then just reference brand. Um, where would you put the digital brand governance in this list? So just maintaining a consistent brand message across, across the platform.

Mikah Sellers: 41:31

yeah, I mean I think, you know, I think digital brand governance is super important, but I would take it beyond kinda the brand standards, right. I think just. Governance as it relates to AI is super important. You know, um, you know, we're, there's, there's not much regulation out there, right, uh, right now in terms of how we apply ai, right? And I think there's this laissez-faire. Attitude in government, right? That we're gonna self-regulate corporations that are gonna self-regulate. I think it's really important for companies in general when we're thinking about using ai, whether it's in in marketing and sales, or in support, you know, developing governance structures that allow us to kind of really evaluate. Systems to put constraints in place before we ever deploy them. And then when they're out there, you know, in the wild we're when we're, we're using them to engage with customers. Right. You know, being able to understand when we need to, like actually, you know, kind of intervene and, you know, analyze, you know, interactions to make sure that we're not going off the rails. Um, certainly I would throw that in there at eight.

Austin McNair: 42:36

Great. I'm gonna, I'm actually gonna bring over both of these last ones.'cause I feel like the, the, what you touched on is also kind of what was our last 10th option here? Um, which, which was kind of that conversation around ethical AI and, and responsible innovation. Would you throw, would you reorder those differently? Like between eight there?

Mikah Sellers: 42:54

Yeah. I'll probably reorder a bunch of things on this list list differently now, but, but certainly, yeah. I mean, you know, because I, when I look at, when I look at, you know, the, the, the brand governance, I think, you know, for me, brand is everything, right? It's, it's every single activity that happens within a company. All together that the, the totality of that, you know, your products, your services, your, your people, the way that they interact with the customers, all of that to me is brand.

Austin McNair: 43:20

All right, well, we we're gonna give you a couple of opportunities here. Here's the blind rankings list. We got it. We captured it. Uh, what would you switch, you know, it would give you the chance now to, to, to what was the biggest thing you, you, you'd switch here in terms of, you know, these, these skill sets that marketers should be developing, uh, in 2026 and beyond.

Mikah Sellers: 43:39

I would probably probably move, you know, adaptability and continuous learning, you know, up to number two.

Austin McNair: 43:47

Cool

Mikah Sellers: 43:48

for sure. I think, I think, you know, that that's gonna again, kind of get into. You know, those, those skills that I, I, I talked about as being really, really critical that those three legs of the stool, I don't, you know, there's no, there's, there's no, there's no end point, right? Like you're, you're never fully developed. Right? As a human being, we can always improve, you know, so whether it's, you know, our, our, our power skills, our generative skills, or our technical skills, you

riverside_dr._mikah sellers_raw-synced-video-cfr_spiraling_up studio_0386: 44:17

know,

Mikah Sellers: 44:19

continuously improving on those is really, really critical in my mind. Um, I would, I would definitely probably move from a leadership perspective, ethical and ethical AI and responsible innovation. Um, maybe up above data fluency and literacy. Right. Um, so maybe reordering those two. I, I think would be a, would be a good, a good move.'cause I think, you know, look, again, you know. A lot of times, you know, we're we, we, we end up in like the shiny object problem, right? Where it's know, we see something and we're like, Hey, this could create, you know, an efficiency at scale or, or it could provide a, you know, a quote unquote competitive edge. But we don't really take the time, you know, to really think through all the downstream implications of what this means, right? Both, you know, from a technical perspective and a human perspective. And I think, you know, being able to understand. You know, what eth, what ethical AI really looks like. Right. Uh, in terms of both, you know, design and implementation is really important. And then, you know, responsible innovation to me, you know, gets also into the human aspect of that, which we talked about a little bit earlier. It's like, just because you can doesn't mean you should. Right. You know, you know, you know, if you know, and, and I think we're gonna see this is a problem we're all gonna be running into. For the next four to five as we see, you know, genic, right? Really spread throughout the enterprise. And we see more of these, you know, 5,000, 10,000, 15,000, 20,000, you know, people rifts across the Fortune 500 and, and downstream and into the mid-market, right? Um, it's gonna create, you know, a significant problem for society. You know, what do these people do now that they're no longer doing what they did? Are we all gonna become vertical urban farmers? I, I, I hope pays really well.

Austin McNair: 46:17

If that's the alternative. Yeah, I don't know. That's a, there's some, some appeal there, but Wow, Dr. Sellers, this is such a fascinating conversation. I, I think I could speak on behalf of Joe and Mary Blanche that this, this is exactly the conversation we wanted to have with you today. Um, I think that you alluded to, and I think, you know, we're not the only ones, and I think all of our audience is experiencing some degree of anxiety around kind of the, um, you know, the changes that are happening right now with AI and technology, but I felt like you gave us a really grounded response with a lot of practical, um, insights and direction on where to go. I can say for me, the, the one that stood out to me in terms of your answers. Um, putting, actively interfacing with AI at all the way up towards the top of the list within your top three. For me, that's, you know, as much as I'm trying, it's still kind of a little bit of a kick in the rear end to like, okay, take it to the next take, take it to the next level. You mentioned some of those resources and diving into a Coursera course or something like that. Um, I think there's a lot of professional services marketers out there and, and business leaders in general that need to hear that, and they need to understand how important that is for us in kind of the moment that we live in. Um, Joe Mary Blanche, anything from, from your end, kind of big takeaways.

riverside_joe_pope_raw-synced-video-cfr_spiraling_up studio_0385: 47:29

I

Joe Pope: 47:29

think the biggest takeaway certainly is that we do see some of these AI pieces higher up on the list. And you know, just going back and hinges on research for the past five, six years, the massive rise of AI as a key talking point across professional services from outside of the top 10 to now. At the top spot for where business leaders' concerns are is so important. And, and that is where our hopes were in terms of having our conversation with you today, uh, centered around because it, it just truly is an important thing for professional services leaders and marketers to be thinking about. So, really do appreciate you, uh, you spending some time with us today.

Mikah Sellers: 48:07

Well, thank you for opportunity.

Austin McNair: 48:08

Well, Dr. Sellers, where can people follow you? Um, we definitely want to make sure when we'll put a link in the description to your book and as well as I heard you got a new podcast coming out. Where can, where can people follow you?

Mikah Sellers: 48:19

Yeah, I mean, you know, my, my website, uh, micah sellers.com. Um, I'm also on, on LinkedIn, you know, uh, power User. Um, it's a love, it's a love hate relationship, uh, with LinkedIn. Uh, and then, you know, you're right, I am watching, uh, a podcast, uh, end of this month. Uh, it will be called Forces of Change. And the website for that is Forces of Change fm. Um, I'm, I'm also on, uh, ig, just my first and last name. You know, you can find me there. Um, happy to, happy to, you know, answer any questions that your audience may have, both about my book, uh, but also about the topics that we discussed.

Austin McNair: 48:56

Excellent. Well, we'll put all the links to that in the description below. And, uh, Dr. Sellers, thank you so much for, for a, a fantastic conversation.

Mikah Sellers: 49:03

Excellent. Thank you, Austin. Thank you, Joe. Thank you, Mary. I really appreciate the, uh, the opportunity to join the podcast today.

Austin McNair: 49:11

Excellent. All right. With that, we will, uh, turn to our next segment. All right. Well, we're joined by hinges managing partner Liz Harr, and we are gonna be talking about an early look into some of the results of the 2026 high growth study. Liz, how excited are you that we are now in the phase where we are analyzing the. Of this research and I,'cause I know that come January, it's the most exciting time of the year. It's when all the research drops. But tell us about this moment and, uh, and what we're learning kind of, uh, maybe give us a sneak peek. What are, what are we learning about this data?

Elizabeth Harr: 49:48

Well, first of all, you know how excited I am about this. I, this is just what I love about Hinge is the release of this. Very useful, very practical data. Um, I'm a little more excited than my sleeping pup behind me. I'll say my energy levels are a little bit higher about this study than his, but, um, I, I'm also really grateful So many people participated in the survey that feeds into the study that we're about to release in January. And you know, it takes. Time and effort. And I am amazed at the people who, it's a community of professional services leaders who participate in this every single year. Why do they do it? Because they're serious about growth. They're serious about smart and profitable growth, and that's really what this is all about. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you for everyone who has taken this survey and participated. I know there's lots of demands. On your time, and this is, uh, gonna be an amazing thing once we release it.

riverside_austin_mcnair_raw-synced-video-cfr_spiraling_up studio_0390: 50:58

That's right, Liz. Yeah. I mean, and what these people who take the study every year, like you mentioned, they, you know, the, I think the key insight, and for those who may not be as familiar with the high growth study. What we do is we ask, uh, a survey of questions on how firms are going to market. What is the par, what are the components of their marketing strategy? Where are they putting more effort? Where are they seeing more impact? And down the line from, uh, a bunch of other topics, how are we engaging visible experts? Uh, what are the top business challenges of your firm? And how are you using ai? So there's, there's a lot that we have coming, uh, when this report releases. And Liz, you published, a quick LinkedIn article this week just sharing, you know, a a, a sneak peek of some of the data. So what, what is, uh, what is some of the things that we learned?

Elizabeth Harr: 51:44

So I think one thing that's really interesting is on leads and where are they coming from, you know. Referrals are always going to be part of how the professional services pipeline gets made and how business is one that will never, ever, ever go away. However, referral business is declining. We've been seeing this year, after year after year, and uh, firms are now, they used to get, you know, 60%. Of their leads from referrals. So that's different from business, but 60% of their leads from referrals. Now it's 44% just leads. Then you have to close those deals. So what we are seeing surfacing is something really important with the high growth community of firms, and that is they're proficient in not only securing referrals through regular, traditional means. They are proficient. Securing referrals through digital means, and these are people they've never, ever met. We call them invisible referrals. When you build proficiency in the digital realm, your website is impressive and has an excellent cx. It educates everybody who goes there on your expertise, not just what you do, but what you know. You are out there, uh, being quoted. You are regularly published. All of these things create such important visibility, and when people read that, they become your advocate and you don't even know them. High growth firms are leveraging this and getting referrals this way, and it is a really important finding and speaks to why high growth firms invest so heavily in their digital presence.

riverside_austin_mcnair_raw-synced-video-cfr_spiraling_up studio_0390: 53:37

Yeah, that's right. And I, and I love the way that our team kind of took that question, um, sort of a step forward this year, every year we're doing these little things to make the survey more specific, more powerful in terms of the insights we're gaining. And Liz, one of the things that, um, was kind of a component there in terms of like how these different leads are coming in. Um, we also asked about events and like what kind of a role, uh, an event strategy plays, uh, in a marketing program. And similarly to what you were saying about the digital marketing side. We also saw right, that, um, a big portion, uh, of leads are coming from the way that high growth firms are going into these events and, and building a presence. And, and one of the things that I'd love to hear you comment on, um, new item that we added in this year as a technique was firms. Actually hosting their own events and conferences. Like actually, you know, you know, going to all the industry events, association events, but some select firms are actually going and taking the step of doing their own thing. Uh, and we saw that in terms of impact, those, you know, few firms that are doing it, the impact level was very high. I wanted to get your comment about that, um, as this I think is gonna be an interesting narrative going into this year's study.

Elizabeth Harr: 54:57

Yeah, I mean, for firms who can pull it off, uh, it delivers a huge ROI because you have a, uh, you're. You're really mixing and blending with an audience who is ready to receive your expertise. They're ready and willing. They want to hear from you. Um, I would say that similar to what I was talking about earlier, how marketing, successful marketing requires like an orchestra of, of, uh, techniques that work together and support each other. So to pull off. An event of your own, get enough people, get, get people to spend their time coming there. You have to have already made a case way beyond sending out great invites and making it look exciting, like you have to be well known in the digital hallways of LinkedIn. You have to look like a regular dialoguer of serious conversation that your clients are trying to have. You have to be, uh, well spoken and relevant with content that you put on your website and any other place that you disseminate it. Maybe it's an email newsletter, maybe it's podcasts. Whatever it is, you need to be out there in a relevant, differentiated manner. When you do that, then you can pull off. Hosting events and getting enough energy around it so that it's worth your time and effort. But once you're there and high growth firms are really good at this, yes, it delivers amazing impact. We're seeing, I know you've experienced this yourself, but we are seeing a resurgence in person get togethers. People are. Seeing the value of learning in face-to-face mode, and they're willing to spend time to do it because it does deliver the impact. So when you have that proficiency and you can pull that off, it is definitely something to prioritize.

riverside_austin_mcnair_raw-synced-video-cfr_spiraling_up studio_0390: 57:11

Absolutely. Well, Liz, I know that you and I could sit here and talk for hours about, uh, this data and what we're processing. Um, I'll just say the, the study comes out in January, early January. I think it'll be the second week of January. The executive summary will be coming out, and then the industry reports will be shortly followed and. Everyone who participated, again, thank you for participating. You will be getting your industry report for free, uh, as soon as they're released in January and early February. Um, we can't thank you enough for participating and for everyone else, if you have questions about the high growth study, leave us a comment, uh, send us a note and we'd be happy to share with you about what our research is and what we're learning, uh, as it comes out, uh, very soon. Thanks for talking with me, Liz.

Elizabeth Harr: 57:57

Thank you Austin, and uh, we'll see everybody in January when we release the study.

Austin McNair: 58:04

And that brings us to the end of this week's episode of Spiraling Up. Thank you everybody for listening. Make sure you like, subscribe, and, tell a friend about an episode. If you enjoyed our conversation with Liz, our conversation with Micah Sellers, make sure you subscribe and stay tuned, uh, because we have so much great content planned for the new year, and we are excited to keep it rolling. Thank you, and we will see you on the next one.