This or That: What High-Growth Professional Services Firms Do Differently

Download the executive summary of the 2026 High Growth Study: www.hingemarketing.com/hgs

What marketing decisions truly drive growth in professional services firms?

In this episode of Spiraling Up, the team explores findings from Hinge’s 2026 High Growth Study through a structured “This or That” conversation, examining the strategic choices that differentiate high-growth firms from their slower-growing peers.

Rather than relying on opinions or industry hype, Austin McNair, Joe Pope, and Mary-Blanche Kraemer use research-backed insights to unpack common marketing tradeoffs—revealing where high-growth firms focus, where they don’t, and why many popular debates miss the point entirely.

Topics include:

• How high-growth firms balance brand building and demand generation
• The role of thought leadership, SEO, and visibility in long-term growth
• Why specialization consistently outperforms broad positioning
• How data—not instinct—should guide marketing strategy

This episode is designed for professional services marketers and firm leaders looking to move beyond surface-level tactics and make smarter, more strategic decisions backed by evidence.

If you want to understand what high-growth firms actually do differently, this conversation delivers the clarity.

Transcript

Austin McNair 0:00

The last 12 months have been some of the most stressful months for marketers maybe ever. Think about it, marketing budgets, they're tighter. The marketplace is full of layoffs. AI bots running around everywhere. There couldn't be more changing right now, and it's been. Very stressful for us. So what do we need going into the new year? We need research. We need something that can guide the way for us and at least shine some light in terms of what is happening in the marketplace. So in today's episode of Spiraling Up, we're gonna be looking at the new research report, our 2026 high growth study, and playing a little game of this or that to uncover some of the key findings that can tell us what the heck is going on this year. Welcome everyone. This is Spiraling Up with Hinge Live in Richmond, Virginia. Welcome everyone to spiraling Up the podcast for professional services marketers and business leaders. My name is Austin, and as always, but not usually, I'm here in Richmond, Virginia with my colleagues and co-hosts, Mary Blanche Kramer.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 1:08

Hey Austin, we're excited you're here.

Austin McNair 1:10

And Joe Pope, we just had to fly

Joe Pope 1:12

to the Northern Hemisphere to get you here.

Austin McNair 1:14

That's right. Yeah. No, we're all here together. Live in Richmond, shooting a couple of podcast episodes for you. Happy New Year everybody. Uh, if you're watching on YouTube, make sure you, uh, do us a favor, like the video, subscribe. We've, we've arrived today in this beautiful podcast studio. Yeah, this is awesome. Here in Richmond to, uh, shoot a couple of great episodes for you. And we hope that, uh, you find value in them. So like, subscribe, do all the things to support our channel. We have such a cool episode planned today because this is, um. A, a, a unique time of the year, every year, our new high growth study, uh, drops. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And we get to go through the, this like fresh new data about what's happening in professional services, marketing and mb I know that you've planned,

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 1:57

I've got a good game, a great

Austin McNair 1:58

game for us today. but before we get to that, I, I think I need to take a moment and pause and celebrate something. Oh, no.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 2:05

Oh, no. I

Austin McNair 2:07

Some of our listeners will know that none of our listeners will care. Our, our our at at Hinge, we have a internal Fantasy Football League, and I am proud to say that as of right now. I think I'm winning. As of right now. I think I am the champion of the Fantasy Football League. I know for a fact I, you know, there's one game left. It's possible I might lose to someone else, but I know that I beat you and I beat you. And, uh, that just makes me, uh, and I beat producer John. Uh, so the, that brings a lot of delight to my heart. How does it make you feel, Joe?

Joe Pope 2:37

It makes me feel like I've looked at our demographics of people who are watching the show on YouTube, Uhhuh, and I'm gonna tell you that the percentage of people who don't care. Is high.

Austin McNair 2:45

Yeah.

Joe Pope 2:46

Okay. Well,

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 2:47

well we care Joe. And um, I would like to say that I got fourth place, um, which I have battled between second and fourth place for four straight years. First year I got second. Mm-hmm. Second year I got fourth. Third year I got second and then we took a pause. I don't think we did it last year. Yeah. And then I'm back at the number four spot. So you know I didn't beat you, but I did beat. I did beat Joe. So yeah, that's all that really matters.

Joe Pope 3:12

You're gonna get like a banner. They put it up in the rafters. I beat Joe.

Austin McNair 3:16

We all beat Joe. Well, and BI, I don't know any of the details. You have been the architect of this, uh, episode along with producer John. Uh, it sounds like I'm gonna get another chance today to try to beat Joe Head to head to game. Love this for you.

Joe Pope 3:30

It's a OC recurring bit on this podcast,

Austin McNair 3:32

reoccurring bit of, of trying to beat Joe. Let's

Joe Pope 3:34

beat Jeff.

Austin McNair 3:35

But, uh, no, we, uh, are gonna turn now to our segment as we unpack some of the findings of the 2026 high growth study in head-to-head game of this or that.

3:50

All right, everyone. Before we get to today's game, we can't start without saying that right now. The new 2026 high-growth study executive summary is available and free on hinges website, hinge marketing.com/hgs. This 40 page report goes into deep detail about what the fastest growing professional services firms are doing. With their marketing, how much effort are they putting into certain techniques? Where are they seeing the most impact? This report has it all, so go ahead and download it. Uh, hinge marketing.com/hgs. Joe, you excited for the research results? I want more leads. Did you download it yet? No, but I hope other people do, so they give us their email. Okay, great. Give it. Well, Joe wants your email and go ahead and go to hinge marketing.com/hds. Give joe your email, but you'll also get the, uh, full results of the, the executive summary. I think it's a fair trade. It's a good trade. Yeah.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 4:44

So producer John and I have spent some quality time with the brand new high growth study report and the executive summary, honestly, you guys was, it's an absolute goldmine. Um, so instead of just waxing poetic on the findings, we thought it would make a little bit more sense to make the game, make a game, make it a little bit more interesting. Um, so we've done some digging on the data to pull 10 key findings, and we're putting both of you in the hot seat. Um, here are the rules. I'm gonna read the question around a stat or a finding and then you guys are gonna give me the answer. Uh, producer John is gonna keep score and the highest score wins the title of, what do we wanna call it? High Growth Steady Extraordinaire.

Austin McNair 5:27

Sounds good to me. Yeah,

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 5:28

I love that. Bragging rights for a whole year.

Austin McNair 5:30

Love that.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 5:31

All right. You guys ready to put your knowledge to the test?

Austin McNair 5:33

I'm ready. And I'll tell you that I, um, usually have, have my eyeballs like really close to this research about this time of the year. Mm-hmm. And, uh, at your request, I have laid back a little bit. Mm-hmm. So that this will be a fair competition. I have not, uh, internalized all the data yet. So this will be one of my first experiences as well, kind of getting into the data. I'm very excited about that.

Joe Pope 5:56

You're giving a little behind the scenes look there right now, because Austin, like you've, you've just hinted at. You are the master of all things high growth study statistics.

Austin McNair 6:04

I try.

Joe Pope 6:05

Yeah,

Austin McNair 6:05

I try.

Joe Pope 6:06

Which is why in previous versions of games that we've played involving the high growth study, you usually win.

Austin McNair 6:11

Yeah. Yeah. It's on a theme. It's on theme for, for beating jail. Let's beating

Joe Pope 6:15

Joe again. So we're letting everybody behind the scenes here. Austin does not know the answers. That's true. I don't. I have a fighting chance. You have a fighting chance and I'm still gonna lose. All right, let's do this. All right. Nb, how does it work?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 6:26

Okay, so question number one. In the 2025 high growth study, the median annual growth rate was 11.6%. So do you guys think the median growth rate in the 2026 study is over or under that 11.6%?

Austin McNair 6:45

I think 2025 was for businesses, a pretty tight year. As we mentioned, kind of in the beginning of the podcast, this has been a year, I think, defined by a lot of layoffs. I think it's been defined by a lot of, just general uncertainty kind of creeping back into the market. I'm gonna go under, I think that we've, we've slowed down in terms of growth, uh, this year, but it's just a feeling.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 7:08

Okay. Joe.

Joe Pope 7:10

Yeah, so I think this is a challenge because there's one factor. I agree with everything you just said there, Austin, but there's one factor which is hard to capture in this study, and that is the impact of private equity and roll-ups, which in turn would result in organizations growing faster. I will take over, and the reason I'm taking that is solely based off of those types of factors.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 7:31

All right. Drum roll. Uh, the answer is under, ah yes. Go

Austin McNair 7:35

off to a hot start. Let's

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 7:37

go. So in the 2026 high growth study, the median annual growth rate was 9.9%, which is an eight year

Joe Pope 7:44

low. So it dropped off 2%, basically. Mm-hmm.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 7:47

Okay, next question. According to hinges 2024 and 2025, high growth studies, the percent of revenue dedicated to marketing stayed consistently at 7%. Now in this 20, 26 edition, do you think firms spent more or less on marketing as a percentage of revenue?

Austin McNair 8:07

Joe, I think you get to go first this time.

Joe Pope 8:08

Yeah. Well, I'm already in the hole, which makes sense. Uh, I will say that we are, so, 7% was last year.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 8:18

Seven. Yep.

Joe Pope 8:19

7%. So we're gonna say higher or lower in terms of, uh, percentage of spend. Revenues were down. I'm gonna go with under Okay. That the spend was less. Uh, but I don't think it will be much. I think it'll be right around

Austin McNair 8:31

Do I, do I have to choose the other answer or can I also Definitely You can just, yeah. Okay. Yeah, I would say that I, I would guess the under for this answer as well, just because, um, I think that in my experience talking to marketing leaders, most of them are talking about how they don't feel like they have the resources, the necessary resources available to do all the things they want. Mm-hmm. Whether that's hiring people internally or, um, whether that's, um, you know, outsourcing to specialists. Uh, but I will say that, you know, one stat I do know from the high growth study is that the high growth firms are the ones that usually spend. Twice as much. Mm-hmm. On average. Yep. And that trend's been going up. So, but, but for the general population, I don't know. I mean, I'm interested, are we, am I right? Are we right or wrong here? I'm gonna go under as well.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 9:20

Okay. So you both went with less. Mm-hmm. And the answer is more.

Austin McNair 9:25

Ah,

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 9:26

uh, so in the 2026 study, the median percent of revenue dedicated to marketing increased slightly to 8%. Okay. So

Joe Pope 9:33

it is right around seven. Uh

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 9:34

yep. So marketing the first upward shift, uh, from a five year low.

Joe Pope 9:37

Interesting.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 9:38

Yep.

Joe Pope 9:38

Yeah, so I, I think that this is like what you were just saying there, Austin, in terms of where organizations that are growing faster do spend more money. Mm-hmm.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 9:46

But

Joe Pope 9:46

I think it's probably not on the internal staff. Right. We talked about it already. There's anxiety when it comes to those types of things. It's in the specialist places, so I, I, I figured right around that number made a lot of sense and, and it's coming through right around there.

Austin McNair 10:00

Yeah. And, and it varies greatly from industry to industry, right? We do, uh, every year a report, or it's every other year with the Association for Accounting Marketing, and we know that. Accounting firms, you know, if you compare different industries, they tend to be a little bit more risk averse mm-hmm. In terms of their marketing budget, uh, coming around about 1% of revenue. Mm. Okay. But it's still, it's those high growth firms, even in that research report. Totally separate from the high growth study. Yeah. 2%. Mm-hmm. Like, it's, it's, it's a double, uh, you know, high growth firms, those that are growing faster, they're spending double their peers. So, um, I think one thing our listeners can take away, and I think every marketer should kind of. Where as a chip on their shoulder, especially when they're talking with their firm leadership is like, Hey, you know, we've looked at the research. There's certainly a correlation between the companies that are spending more on marketing and those that are growing faster. Um, so if 7% even or 8% sounds. Like, wow, that's, that's a crazy marketing budget. We, our company would never, ever fund that level of marketing spend. You can still kind of take with you the principle of, you know, this research finding and, and carry it forward. But, uh, no, very, very fascinating. We both got it wrong. So what's the score? Uh,

Joe Pope 11:10

I have not gotten the question right yet. Okay, cool. One to zero. So yeah, that makes

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 11:15

All right, next question. Uh, according to the 2025 high growth study, more than 50% of respondents identified incorporating AI and automation into their business as a top challenge. Now in the 2026 high growth study, do you think more firms are struggling with this challenge or are fewer firms.

Austin McNair 11:35

I really hope that the answer is more because I, I, uh, it seems that's kind of what it feels like that, uh, every conversation in 2025 has been centered around. Integrating ai, using it for efficiency. upskilling your team to kind of use the tools more, test the tools in kind of safe and secure ways. So I'm gonna guess that that went up, um, just based off of my anecdotal experience.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 12:02

Okay. So more firms for you, Joe?

Joe Pope 12:04

Yeah, I mean, anecdotal is the answer here and I can't remember, and all I do is answer calls, right? People calling in to figure out from their perspective how an agency like Hinge can support them. AI comes up in literally every conversation. Now, some folks are, some folks are on top of it. People are embracing it or figuring out ways that they can incorporate it into new and impressive workflows, maximizing content creation, things along those lines. So if it's not, if the answer's not more here, I'd be very surprised. Like it just completely blown away.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 12:37

Okay, so the answer is. Fewer.

Joe Pope 12:41

Oh,

Austin McNair 12:41

wow. Fewer.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 12:42

Yep. So in the 2026 study, 45.9% identified incorporating AI and automation into their business as a top challenge. So slightly lower than the 50.4%. Who identified that response in the 2025 study?

Joe Pope 12:57

Do you know right off the top of your head if it was still the top challenge?'cause I know last year it was.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 13:01

It was, yeah.

Joe Pope 13:02

Okay. Yeah. So it still makes sense, right? I mean, this is the thing that people in professional services are thinking about. And we're picking NIS on percentages, which makes sense because we're trying to make me look stupid on this podcast. So I, I'm, I'm here for it though. I mean, the larger. Takeaway is still the same. Uh, AI is the most impactful thing happening in professional services marketing today.

Austin McNair 13:24

I, I do wonder though, if it's starting to dry up a little bit. Like, I think, you know, if you, if you look back, I, I look back to the first sort of blog post I. I, I authored for Hinge, just about chat, GPT and how that would change content marketing. When was that? It was a couple years ago. That was three years ago. It was three years ago. It was a while ago. So, I mean, I wonder if the conversation is drying up a little bit in terms of like, okay, we have these tools now. Let's move on, like what's next? Like let's get back into the, you know, fundamentals of, you know, positioning and strategy and like doing great marketing. Um, I certainly, you know, I think there's a lot of potential and we've had some good cut. Conversations this year on the podcast about, uh, AI and what leaders need to be focused on Sure. And how they should be using it. But I don't know that maybe, maybe we're turning a corner here and now the, you know, we need to get back to some of the fundamentals of marketing, uh, outside of just. Some, uh, a less hype around, around that.

Joe Pope 14:20

We've had a lot of good conversations about some of the traditional pieces that have really picked itself back up too. I mean, we've had numerous in-person podcasts that we've done. Certainly seen how, uh, especially in a conference environment, we've got a return to those types of events. We had a great podcast with our friends at Teal and Team a few months back. Uh, we, we missed you at that one buddy. We did. Mm-hmm. The budget for s filing up to get you to fly Sure. To North America's doesn't quite afford that, but Sure. Okay. But yeah, I mean we, we were able to talk, uh, with Paige and e uh, at Teon team about the Hilton Trends report and some of those different factors of putting together in-person events. Mm-hmm. And it, it's getting back to the basics in certain ways makes, makes some sense. But to see that it's still the number one challenge that that checks on the anecdotal box. Yep.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 15:06

okay guys, so this next set of questions is gonna be exclusively focused on high growth firms. So data from 2025 and 2026. So which marketing technique did high growth firms rate as more impactful? Traditional advertising. So print, radio, billboards, uh, or PPC and display ads.

Joe Pope 15:26

I think, Joe, you get to, to pick first. More impactful. So, um, spending money on, out of home billboards, things along those lines. Mm-hmm. Versus digital PPC. I, I, I'm gonna stick with digital though. I do think that some of the traditional spend elements have probably increased recently, aligned with the fact that just, frankly, the, on the digital side, it's becoming harder and harder to do things organically. It's been harder to do things in the paid realm, so as organizations are looking to maximize and improve their marketing results. Uh, I do think traditional is on the way up, but I'll still take the, that if we're doing this or that. Mm-hmm. And the, that being PPC and digital ads.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 16:08

Okay.

Austin McNair 16:08

Awesome. I'll, I'll go the other way. I, I think on the traditional side right now, I think a lot of people responding to our survey will, um, sort of. by the way that our, our surveys run, like they will, they will include things like, you know, their conference sponsorships and some of that in terms of traditional advertising. I just, in my experience, we work with a lot of companies. We do a lot of marketing audits every year. Um, and traditionally I see that, um, a lot of these companies are, perceiving that the return on impact is lower for their. Paid search and paid social campaigns mostly. That's because of, you know, the bigger strategy. It's not necessarily tied directly to the, you know, actual X's and O's of, you know, setting up a, a search campaign. Mm-hmm. It, it, it always ties back to like, you know, what is the main call to action? What is the offer? What are you, you know, what is the bigger, you know, instrument of, you know, driving the success of your. Search and social campaigns, and a lot of companies out there, um, you know, while they might be getting right in some points, in some parts, I think in other parts they, they still struggle with that. Why? I personally think, you know, it's a great thing to work with a specialist on. Mm-hmm. If I was a marketing director and I planning my marketing budget, um, and we had, you know, some team members that were good but not great at planning and I think it's a great. You know, not an advertisement for Hinge, but semi advertisement for Hinge. It's a good thing to outsource to a specialist. That's really good on, yeah. Now, um, so yeah, for those reasons, I'm gonna go traditional.

Joe Pope 17:40

Before you read the answer, I have a feeling that everything Austin just justified, especially recognizing he's all over the data, that the, the rationale that you just shared mm-hmm. Sounds very accurate. I am terrified. I'm about to go own four. I'm gonna change my answer. I'm gonna go traditional. Are you switched? And I'm gonna, I'm gonna justify it as the, the way that you make decisions in professional services marketing. Mm-hmm. And the way you buy professional services in general is that you listen to experts. Yeah. This is your field, Uhhuh. I'm gonna change my answer. I'm going Traditional, I flip flopped.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 18:14

Oh, I love this. It is traditional. Okay. Good joke. This one. What? Careful.

Austin McNair 18:18

Imagine if you had flip flopped and then they

Joe Pope 18:20

wrong and then we were both wrong. Yeah. Actually that would've been hilarious if it would've been a clippable piece of podcast culture. I know we, we recently recorded with producer John a rollup of. Last, uh, year's worth 20, 25 years worth of pods and, and I'm sure that he would've loved to clip that one for 2020 six's rollup episode. What, what's

Austin McNair 18:36

the threshold of questions that we get wrong where we just scrap the episode?'cause clearly we don't know what we're talking about. Um, good. I'm glad we both got that one right. That flip flopping. Yeah. Good for

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 18:46

you guys. Okay. So the high growth firms gave this an average impact rating of 6.3 compared to the 5.6 for PPC. That's similar though. That's

Joe Pope 18:55

the stat. It's not that too far off.

Austin McNair 18:57

I, I, I'd like to talk to some marketing directors this year about how they're doing these more traditional ad campaigns.'cause I think especially for, I, one thing I do know about this sample from this year's study was that we got a lot more of the mid-size and larger firms to participate than we did in years past. Mm-hmm. In years past. Our high growth study included, uh, a number, and it's not that we don't want them in the study, but there is a lot more, um, of the smaller kind of, um. Uh, consulting firms, you know, 10 person shops or fewer. Um, and this year we intentionally, not that we always weren't intentionally doing it, but this year we, we, we made a very concentrated effort to get more of the larger mid-size firms in. Mm-hmm. And they're the companies that are gonna have those budgets for traditional advertising. Yeah. So I, I'm really, I'd like to talk to some people this year about, you know, what kind of campaigns they're running and finding this impact, and I think it's a good topic.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 19:46

All right, so our next, this or that is a true or false question.

Austin McNair 19:50

Oh,

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 19:50

so true or false? Uh, high growth firms spend twice as much on marketing compared to no growth firms.

Austin McNair 19:57

Oh, well I think I already, uh, may have memorized that one and let that one outta the bag so that I'm gonna go true with that one.

Joe Pope 20:03

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we've seen that as well. You talked about it on, from the study we did with the Association of Accounting Marketing. Mm-hmm. The organizations that are growing faster than their peers spend more money on marketing. Uh, so is it 2%, or sorry, twice as much, for example? Uh, or is it slightly less? I mean, I'm sure that there's a way to try to make us look silly here too. So it could be like just shy of double, but, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna go with true.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 20:28

true. Yeah. Another point for you both. Uh, so in the 2026 high growth study, high growth firms spent a median 12% of revenue on marketing compared to five spent on marketing by no growth firms. Okay. So

Joe Pope 20:40

even more.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 20:40

Yeah.

Austin McNair 20:41

Right. Yeah. And I mean, like these actual percentages, I think we. The report always has like a little bit of disclaimer that the, the actual percentages might be a little bit higher just'cause, you know, we're not asking people for their exact marketing budgets. We're not asking for like, exact figures, but we're, we're, we're getting as close as we can. and so while those percentages might be higher than real life, again, already said this earlier, but the, I think every marketer should, should, should take this principle forward with them, which is that like, back yourself, back, your team like. Believe that the things that you're doing contribute to the growth of your firm. You gotta fight for your right to market. Ah,

Joe Pope 21:21

there we go. Boom. Little Beastie Boys. Action. While we're in a recording studio, I saw all the gold you had. You won in, saw all the gold records on the walls, so, you know, keep up, keep, keep it going.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 21:29

All right. Next question. Uh, this one's an over or under, so kind of a different version of the, the this or that, but, uh, 50% of high growth firms track leads by source as a key metric.

Joe Pope 21:40

good. Question over. Did we have a, or

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 21:42

under,

Joe Pope 21:42

did we ask this previously? Austin?

Austin McNair 21:44

Um,

Joe Pope 21:45

leads by

Austin McNair 21:46

source. Yes. I think the way that this works in the study is, um, we ask, how people would rate their company in terms of a scale of one to 10 in terms of how, well they do at tracking their marketing metrics. Mm-hmm. And, those that answer at like a six or above, they're asked this follow up question about, well, what metrics do you track?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 22:07

Mm-hmm.

Austin McNair 22:08

Um, and so. You know, the result here is going to be those companies, um, that are, you know, presumably better at attributing, you know, marketing results and, and, and tracking their, um, kind of their leads and stuff. but people are pretty bad at this too. So, like that, it's like 80% of people are, are really, they fall into that bucket of like, yeah, we're not very good at tracking our marketing results yet. Um, I'll go over on lead by source, uh, and.

Joe Pope 22:36

Yeah, I'll go over. Mm-hmm. Jim, I know that the answer is the high growth organizations do it better and do it more. But I think you, the logic that you got to at the end there about how people are just generally bad at this. Mm-hmm. Again, and this is now pure anecdotal, like people will come in and I will ask that question like, where do the majority of your leads come from? And I don't know, is usually the first thing A referral. Yeah. For example. All right, well if all your leads come in through referral and you tracked it through. What'd you track it through, like right. What, what was the mental thought process that you went through? And also just people's CRM data is just total crap. So, uh, I'll, I'll go with under and mostly just because I need to do something different like you said. Mm-hmm. But it could go either way.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 23:18

This one goes to Joe under, there

Joe Pope 23:20

you go, man. You've got one buddy. What is it like 49%?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 23:24

Uh, only 48%

Joe Pope 23:26

of firms

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 23:26

reported tracking leads by source as a market. That's amazing.

Austin McNair 23:29

Yeah. Oh, that was luck. Well, that's pretty remarkable. I mean, considering kind of how I broke that down and hopefully that was coherent in terms of how we do the data, right? It wasn't, it wasn't.

Joe Pope 23:37

No, but you can try again.

Austin McNair 23:39

The people who got, who answered this question were the people that were more likely to say that their company is better at tracking their marketing metrics. Got it. Those who, who were a six or an under rated themselves more poorly, we asked them why. And this is always like a really funny part of reading through the, the, the research report and the results is you get these people that are just like, well, it doesn't, you know, it doesn't. Matter, right?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 23:59

Mm-hmm.

Austin McNair 24:00

I don't need to track the results of my marketing. It just is a waste of time. Um, or you get people that just say, um, yeah, our technology just doesn't work for it. There's a lot of the broken CRM stuff. Our technology doesn't talk to each other. You need a plumber? Yeah. Friend Wayne Call to one of our, uh, Wayne Larson, one of our guests this year, the CRM plumber. Yeah. We, uh, people need, people need help and obviously if the, you know, the stronger side of this cohort are still saying that. Less than half of their leads can be attributed. Mm-hmm. Right. That's by lead source man. That's, uh, surprising to me.

Joe Pope 24:34

Yeah.

Austin McNair 24:34

But I mean, maybe it shouldn't be at this point. That's a, it's a real struggle. Attribution.

this-or-that-JP+AM 24:40

Yeah.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 24:41

All right. Moving on. Uh, which marketing priority was more likely to be on the 2026 roadmap for high growth firms? Is it developing thought leaders or marketing technology? AI and automation. Oh, boy.

Austin McNair 24:54

well, I know that in the 2025 study, developing thought leaders was something that we added to the list

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 24:59

mm-hmm.

Austin McNair 25:00

Of, um, marketing priorities, and it was an instant top five.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 25:03

Mm-hmm.

Austin McNair 25:04

Um, it for, for obvious reasons, right. I think professional services marketing is all about expertise and developing thought leaders. And Hinge has been beating that drum for. Our whole existence as a company. So I'm gonna choose developing thought leaders. Uh, if it's not higher on the list, it should be. I mean, I, I think that, um, it's a clear, uh, it's a clear priority and it's a skill that is different for a lot of marketing leaders, right? You, you're not. You're not just managing the marketing of your company and your company profiles, but you're actually working one-on-one with your company's experts, right. To help them build their visibility. Um, and that's, that's kind of a unique set of talents. Mm-hmm. I'm gonna go that direction.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 25:48

Okay. What about you, Joe?

Joe Pope 25:49

I'm gonna, I'm gonna go the opposite. Uh, I think that the tech companies are drunk on power and everybody is inherently figuring out how do we bring to bear every ai the, the big hairy elephant in the room. If we could describe AI as something, a big, hairy elephant. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Terminator too is pretty good too. But you know, just Arnold Schwarzenegger. You seen the movie before? I, I have, yeah. I'm,

Austin McNair 26:16

I'm resisting to do a really bad Arnold and person. I, I'm not gonna do it. I was literally doing this for the purpose of trying to get, I'm not, I'm not gonna do it. You're not gonna take

Joe Pope 26:25

the bait. Well, I'll be back to trying to get you to do it later. Oh, geez.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 26:32

All right. Uh, the answer is developing thought leaders. Ah, so another one for Austin.

Austin McNair 26:37

Yeah.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 26:38

So a full 27% of high growth firms identified developing thought leaders as a top. Marketing priority for 2026 compared to the 24.4% who identified marketing, technology, ai, and automation.

Austin McNair 26:52

Good hand clap to all the people who, who put that as a top priority, as I already said, I think it's, uh, not that technology's not important. We gotta get our technology working and our technology right, but people are more complicated than technology systems and, uh, it should demand more of our attention.

Joe Pope 27:09

It's better for Hinge, maybe not for me in this category, but like you said, I mean, this is something that we've been at the forefront of. We've written two books on this topic. Mm-hmm. Uh, the Visible Expert Revolution, which came out, oh, two years now, at this point, two years ago, uh, I guess we'll have to write a third one soon.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 27:22

Mm-hmm.

Joe Pope 27:23

Uh, but that was a bestseller for a reason. So the trend is right there, and mostly, I'm just trying to beat you, so I gotta pick different answers, but, uh, I, I think, I think the, the logic is, is sound and, and it's, it's like you said, applause to the marketing folks who are leading that charge.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 27:37

Yeah. I mean, Austin, do you feel like this marks a shift in how people are viewing AI and automation?

Austin McNair 27:43

No, I mean, I think it's, I, I think it's still important, but I, I don't think that, you know, there are some, there are some businesses where you. When they, when you break down their marketing system, it's really about deploying like a strong ad strategy and scaling up with maybe AI tools to make things more efficient. Professional services is just a little bit different than that, right? Mm-hmm.'cause at the center of what we do is human beings, experts. Expertise. Right. Right. And so for our industries, I, I don't think we're ever gonna get around the fact that this needs to be a top priority. Mm-hmm. Um, and every client engagement, I mean, this is what we talk about constantly. Yeah. Yep. Um, I'm. I'm always interested in like, okay, well let's see how your newsletter's set up and this and that, and kind of the, you know, what I've described as the X's and o's of marketing, but behind all of that needs to be some kind of initiatives and systems to engage your experts mm-hmm. And get them out there. Mm-hmm. Uh, it's what high growth firms are doing. It's, um, the, the benefits are just, you know, plentiful when it comes to, to, to professional services,

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 28:50

All right. So another true or false question, um, and this is, this is another good one. So, um, high growth firms had twice as many doer sellers in their revenue organization than their low growth counterparts. Hmm. So true or false

Joe Pope 29:03

seller doers, doer sellers. so higher high growth organizations had twice as many people who were both selling and delivering on I'm gonna say, the low growth ones that a lot of times you're gonna rely on, I'm gonna say true.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 29:23

Okay.

Joe Pope 29:23

Um, and this is a good question. Thank you Producer John, and, and b, for writing something because I think that you can logic your way in different directions here with this specifically because true marketing and business development when done successfully is gonna be diverse. It's a team sport. There's a variety of different ways to play. It out. But, um, we also know that professional services is all about selling expertise. And the best way to sell expertise is to put it on display. And so when you can involve your doers in the selling and the marketing, talk about thought leaders for example, then you're going to improve upon it. So now I have logic to my way to a true. Can you just pick false so I can, I'll pick false just to

Austin McNair 30:03

see,

Joe Pope 30:03

uh, if I can climb it, if he gets this right. I swear I'm just gonna throw myself out of this room.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 30:08

It's true. Yes. Joe gets one. Um, alright, so here's the, he's tied

Joe Pope 30:13

now.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 30:14

Are, is he tied?

Joe Pope 30:15

No, I think I'm losing. No, it's tied. It's tied. Yeah. Oh, you should have said true.'cause you knew that that was the answer.

this-or-that-JP+AM 30:20

It's four to four.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 30:21

Oh, I love this. Thank you, producer,

Austin McNair 30:22

John. It's four to four. Okay, good. Well, we gotta keep it, I mean, the, the listeners wanna know who's gonna win. We can't, you know, let it be a blow. They only one. Yeah, but I

Joe Pope 30:29

literally just told you to pick their other answer so I could get it right. No, I said it was false. I didn't believe you.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 30:33

All right. I'm gonna give you guys the stats behind this. Okay. So Doer Sellers made up 34% of small, high growth firm FTEs. Doer sellers made up 14% of bin sized and. They made up 17% of large high growth firms. Oh,

Joe Pope 30:49

that's pretty interest definitive. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I think what were some of the stats for like the Nog growths?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 30:55

16%, um, for nog growth firms for the, uh, small size. Uh,

Joe Pope 31:00

okay. So still a number that's above like 10, 15,

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 31:02

yeah. 5.2 for midsize and then Oh, wow. 6.6. So a big drop off on, yeah. Okay.

Joe Pope 31:07

For large. So as the companies get bigger, if they are growing faster than their peers, they're involving their, their doers in the selling process. Mm-hmm. If they're, yeah. If they're making more money. So that's, that's striking. And I know that you said that the sample this year specifically Austin mm-hmm. Trended up a little bit more from previous years, but, so the, the folks who honestly, frankly, are listening to this podcast, that's something to take away big time.

Austin McNair 31:29

Yeah, for sure. Can we get, uh, let's get our Gemini robot to, uh, take your answer there and turn into a blog post for us. Okay. Yeah. Sound good?

Joe Pope 31:37

Producer, John,

John Tyreman 31:39

we got the

Joe Pope 31:40

transcript. We got the transcript. Transcript. All right. Turn into a blog post. I don't, I don't really wanna write so.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 31:45

All right, let's Um, all right, next question. So, high-growth firms are more likely to support their visible experts with either a social media support or b, budgeting for attending conferences and It's tough one.

Austin McNair 32:01

I'm gonna go with B. Uh, on the conferences and events side, I think that naturally. Thought leaders, like the event space is one of the main kind of channels for them.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 32:12

Mm-hmm.

Austin McNair 32:12

Whether it be speaking, whether it be, you know, supporting in any kind of capacity at, at an event. And I just know that, um, a lot of marketers out there are, um, rightfully resistant to take on publishing social media posts mm-hmm. For, for particular people.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 32:29

Yeah.

Austin McNair 32:30

It's not that we haven't been asked to do that and we have done that and I, so we do quite a bit of it. Yeah. And I think that some, in some circumstances it makes a lot of sense, especially if you're working, say with like a company founder or ceo, right? And it's like, we need to get this person a little bit more activated. You know, more founder driven content. Mm-hmm. Um, I think there's a really good case there for marketers being more involved, having access to, you know, maybe publish on their behalf. In terms of LinkedIn, the problem is that that's not Mm. It's really, really difficult to do that for more than just a handful of people. And, um. So for that, you know, but, but on the other hand, people could have answered this as a way to just say that. Yeah, no, generally we're just advising our team. We're training our team. I saw some great LinkedIn posts this year about how some marketers are doing these creative LinkedIn trainings for their company, trying to get people to, you know. Just, uh, be a little bit more active mm-hmm. And engaged. Um, so maybe, maybe it'll be that answer, but I'm gonna go the events direction. Okay. I'm gonna

Joe Pope 33:29

go

Austin McNair 33:29

events.

Joe Pope 33:29

Great. LinkedIn trainings, like the ones you deliver?

Austin McNair 33:32

Yeah. Oh yeah. Stuff plugged. Yes. I will try, I will, I will convince you to use more.

Joe Pope 33:37

This is likely to end up being one of those clippable moments where I like wax poetic about something and I'm wrong, but I am hard the other direction I, I think it's social media and I think that the cat's out of the bag in terms of how people are successful on LinkedIn. And it is not by putting up company posts.

Austin McNair 33:52

Oh

Joe Pope 33:52

yeah. LinkedIn has suppressed company based posts unless you're paying for it for, I don't know, years at this point. So people know about that.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 33:59

Mm-hmm.

Joe Pope 34:00

And yet we just heard in one of our previous conversations about how, uh, developing thought leadership is, uh, one of those previous questions. Uh, developing thought leadership is super important. It's, it's a high priority type aspect. If we're talking about diversifying, where that thought of leadership goes, it then translates itself to social media, which is the nice, logical place. And if we're on LinkedIn, that means it's gotta be focused around individuals, not companies. I'm gonna say that companies that are growing faster than their peers are spending more money on social media promotion of their experts. All right. All right. Drum roll. It's social media support. Yes. Wow. Yeah. Oh no. Joe takes the lead. Oh,

Austin McNair 34:37

I'm like a loser. That

Joe Pope 34:37

was in my

Austin McNair 34:38

hands too, and I blew it. You did blow it. Interesting. What is, uh, you're the one who gives social media training. Yeah, I know. I just, I thought events would edge it out a little bit. What's the, what did this research say?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 34:47

Yeah, so this year, 54.3% of high growth firms identified social media support as an investment in their visible experts compared to 47.4%. Who identified financial support for attending conferences?

Joe Pope 35:02

I have a feeling that when you remove the high growth piece of that and you just look at the larger study, that the event one is gonna be higher. Interesting. Uh, because we've, we've talked about it, so the return to traditional type activities and things along those lines. Mm-hmm. But the higher growth ones have. Their eye on that thought leadership side. And that's probably what carries the, carries the, yeah.

Austin McNair 35:20

Well, I, I mean, I know that social media marketing is, is a priority for high growth firms. It's, it's, there's no getting around that. Um, where I think the big challenge is, is how marketers are handling that. And as you said, Joe, like what we do on our company profiles, you know, it matters a lot maybe for recruiting purposes, but for, and, and a lot of companies are using like these. Secondary channels like Instagram, um, for, for more of like the culture, company culture purposes. Um, but really, I mean, to be more visible, to grow the visibility of your company. It's about scaling, how your experts Yeah. Uh, get out there. So yeah. Good, good. Uh, thing for people to take, take away.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 36:02

All right fellas. Uh, we have a winner and it is Joe with a score of five Austin four.

Austin McNair 36:12

you

Joe Pope 36:12

squeaked in. I did squeak in. I finally did it. You broke the losing streak. That's the first time I've won something on this podcast.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 36:18

Hold on though. The judges have gotten together and we are actually taking one point away from Joe for changing his answer halfway through. Can't do that. Once. Can we do,

Joe Pope 36:29

there was no rule

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 36:30

that said I couldn't change my answer. I guess the rules

Joe Pope 36:32

the judges ruled out. The judges

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 36:33

have have decided. So Todd,

Joe Pope 36:35

what do we do in a time? Which judges the two of you sitting right there. Did you just decide that I can't win?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 36:40

Well, producer John and I anticipated that this might happen. So we have a tie breaker that I would

Joe Pope 36:44

change my answer or that you would take it away from me. Maybe a little bit of both. Oh God. Um,

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 36:49

and so we have a tiebreaker question for you. Winner takes all.

Austin McNair 36:52

It's good, man. The listeners get one more question answered. Come on, don't bragging rights for a whole year. Don't lose. Don't be a sore loser. The person who always stands. Actually, you haven't. You haven't, yeah. No one won yet. So you could still win. Sure. Okay. Tiebreaker, I'm into it. Let's go tiebreaker. Alright, let's

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 37:08

go now without going over. So, without going over, what percentage of high growth firms said they plan to learn more about AI in 2026?

Joe Pope 37:20

Without going over is the price, right? Maybe. Do we

Austin McNair 37:25

need to write these down?

Joe Pope 37:27

No. That's Jeopardy, dude.

Austin McNair 37:28

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Who gets to go first though? Yeah, she took your point away. I won. Why don't

Joe Pope 37:32

you go first? You want

Austin McNair 37:33

me to go first?

Joe Pope 37:34

Yes. That's

this-or-that-JP+AM 37:34

crap

Joe Pope 37:35

that I, that I want and then it has been taken away from me. So you go first. What percentage

Austin McNair 37:39

of high growth firms said that they plan to learn more about AI in 2026? I'm gonna say. 75%.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 37:48

75%. Okay.

Joe Pope 37:50

Well, as this is, the price is I will be going with 1%. 1%,$1. Oh yeah. Very strategic move. Maybe I shot too high there. That was exactly why I went with one

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 38:04

general. 85.2% I

Joe Pope 38:10

thought,

Austin McNair 38:12

I actually thought, and I started really doubting myself that maybe I did go, I went way too high there. 85.2%, 85%

Joe Pope 38:18

wanted to do more of ai. So mb what does that mean? Who is the winner of the, that means that this is the most rigged podcast of all time.

this-or-that-JP+AM 38:26

I,

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 38:26

I have no,

Joe Pope 38:27

I can't wait from next year's marketing draft where I'm guessing I'll pick last again.

Austin McNair 38:32

We can, yeah. Well, I mean, did you come in last place? So maybe you'll get the first round pick this time.

Joe Pope 38:36

Oh, because it's reverse, right? Right. Yeah. Like the fantasy football too. Yeah, exactly. Sure. Okay. No, that'll rule. Get randomized and I'll finish last.

Austin McNair 38:44

I will say that maybe that win has an asterisk by it, but a win's a win. A win

Joe Pope 38:48

is

Austin McNair 38:48

a win. We do, we

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 38:48

need like a full list of our wins so we can. You can keep, keep score. I don't think we have that.

Joe Pope 38:54

Yeah. Get your, get your girls to do an arts and crafts for that. I love that. Yeah. It's a little

Mary-Blanche Kraemer 38:57

scoreboard. We'll just like keep it behind us. Alright, well, well that concludes this episode of this or that.

Austin McNair 39:04

This is another episode of Austin winning a Game on a podcast. Thanks for everybody for, for tuning in. Uh, but no, I will, I will, I will close this out here and say thanks to everybody for listening. Hopefully you found this. Fun, insightful, entertaining. That's why we do this podcast. Uh, we hope you find it valuable and helpful. The new 2026 high growth study is now available. You can go to hinge marketing.com/hgs. High growth study. High growth study, uh, and that's where you can pick up the executive summary. The executive summary is completely free, and it's like over 40 pages. Packed, uh, with details about what the fastest growing professional services firms are doing with their marketing and business development. We hope you find that helpful as a free resources and free resource. And if you're interested in what just your industry segment looks like, we have those reports, uh, available for sale as well. So, thanks everybody for listening to a pod, uh, to our podcast today, Joe. Good game. Mm-hmm. You do a little good game. Good game. Appreciate. All right. Sure. Appreciate Mary B Blanc. John. Thank you guys for organizing for this, for us. This was, uh, a lot of fun. Focus, fun.

mailbag-FULL 40:14

All right, everybody. Well, it's a new year, so we thought we'd introduce a new segment to the Spiraling Up podcast. This is our spiraling up mailbag. This is when you submit your questions to us, and as much as we can, we will answer your questions about professional services, marketing, everything that you're doing, everything we can answer. So if you do have questions in the future, you can submit those to podcast@hingemarketing.com. Maybe your question will be featured here on the, on, on the podcast in our next mailbag segment. Uh, and since we're doing a new segment, I thought we'd bring in producer John here, John John's on the receiving end of these questions. And so he's gonna help us out, uh, in reading today's question. So excited to do a new segment with you, John Austin. Thanks for having me join this segment. I'm excited to do this mailbag with you. We've been flooded with questions from, uh, listeners of the Spiraling Up Podcast, and I thought this would be a great way to kind of bring their questions to you and have y'all answer some mailbag questions. All right. Alright, so, uh, should we dig in? Let's do it. All right. Let's dig in to the digital mailbag here. We should really get a, like a bag that we can like pull these out of. I thought that there was a chance we were gonna sing the Blues Clue Song. Mail. Time. Time, mail Time, time, time. Okay. That didn't go as, as we thought it would. We're in a recording studio. We gotta, we gotta do it. We had to give it a shot. Alright, so pulling out our first question. is from Francis, who is the marketing director at a government contractor, and Francis says. Our website sucks. We believe it's actively losing us business, but the owners refuse to pay for a new website. How can I convince them that it's worth the investment? Joe, let's start with you. I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've heard this. There's a version of this. Let me see if I can describe this website for you too. Francis's Government contracting website. Yeah, that's right. Homepage. What do you think's on it? Washington Monument could be that. Austin, what do you think? American flags. American flags? Yeah. Old buildings. Maybe an eagle. Oh, an eagle. That would be guys. Probably per eagle. An eagle. Eagle. And I'm sure there's about 50 logos of agencies that they may or may not have worked with. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, this is a, this is a perennial challenge and the government contracting. Focus, especially if you're talking about defense and, and those types of areas. Uh, the, the thought process for the longest time is a website is just not an important piece of the puzzle. We're, we're doing RFPs and we've got boots on the ground at events and, and doing the capture process, but I mean. that story ended years ago and research that I know we've talked about extensively in the Spiraling Out podcast has disproven the importance specifically in the government contracting area where if you do not have a website that does represent not just who you work for but how you do it and how you solve their challenges and things along those lines, uh, you are gonna be missing out. It is also one thing that I know we've. We've done through associations and groups like PSC Professional Services Council, we've stood up where we've had members of agencies as well as, uh, practitioners, folks who are selling these services. And we're saying, Hey, is our, is part of the RFP process? Are you still, are you going to a website? And the answer is yes. Everybody's going to websites. So the number one thing that you gotta say in those circumstances is, yeah, we do have to encount, uh, we do have to incorporate website as part of our process. How do we convince them it's worth an investment. That's right. That's the big challenge here. So like how much money are we gonna spend on this website? Yeah, I mean, I, there's a bunch of ways to answer that questions, but I mean, one easy way is, well, let's look at the competitive landscape, right? If, if you're submitting an RFP, uh, and you're submitting against three or four other high quality, you know, firms with a good reputation, go and look at, you know. Their their websites. Yeah. And how does your stack up if you're like Francis here and your website is subpar, suboptimal. It's, it has a bad, he says it sucks Austin. He says it sucks. Yeah. Where Francis Ha has a, you know, lousy design, undifferentiated, you know, all the ways that websites can be bad. Um. You know, that you, you might not think it, it's as important, but it leaves a, you know, it leaves an impression there. And so, I mean, if you're trying, you know, if you're trying to have a conversation with owners, I mean, there's a lot of directions to take this. Joe mentioned the research, you know, there. It's never been more, more important to have a strong website. We always say that your website should be your hardest working employee company. Yep. Number one asset. And, and, and if yours is not, if yours is hindering, if you, even if you even catch a whiff that your website is one of the reasons you're, you're losing business. That is, that is the only reason you, you need to, to, to jump on it. Um, but I understand that that's hard and that owners, you know, websites are expensive. Finding the right website vendor is not easy. But, you know, take a look at those competitor websites. How do you stack up? Yeah. What are they doing that you're not doing? I mean, you can think about this for the way that you go to market and do marketing as well. But, um, that's one way you can kind of distinctly show like, here's where our competition is at. Here's where we're at. We believe this is one of the reasons we're losing. Government contractors love PowerPoints, so make a PowerPoint. Just take screenshots of. Your website versus your competitor's websites. Yeah, these are all golden nuggets of advice. Well, Francis, if you are listening to this and you're watching this and you want to get, go a little bit deeper, reach out to Joe or Austin and they can help you out with your website. If you're a government contractor watching this right now, and you are in Francis' Shoes and you want a new website. Reach out to Joe and Austin at Hinge and they'll take care of you. Alright, so this next question is from Margaret, who is a marketing director at a regional accounting firm, and Margaret says, this year our team lost its digital marketing specialist. The company has a hiring freeze right now. What should I do? Mb why don't you, uh, lead us off with this one? Yeah, well, I mean, I think my first, uh, question back to that would be, you know, if, and if you can't hire someone internally, what about externally? Right. You can completely change the, the structure and, you know, use your dollars differently. I know at Hinge, you know, we've had a lot of success with using external resources and it allows you to ebb and flow with the market, particularly in a situation like a, like a hiring freeze. Um, and it also really allows you to not. Not just find a generalist, but a specialist. Mm-hmm. So, you know, if you're able to source some things with your existing team, um, but you know, you don't, you, someone like paid ads, uh, and you know, they're the person in, in paid ads. Right. That's a good use of spend. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, that, I would say back to that, you know, just look at your overall structure to start. What about you, Austin? I would, um. Pick up the high growth study report that we've been talking about because in there, we, we, we do ask, um, teams to tell us about how many marketers, full-time marketers they have on their teams. And surprise, surprise, high growth firms have more marketing resources available to them. Mm-hmm. It's not just that they outsource more, which they do, but they also have more in-house talent, uh, as well. And so if I'm having a conversation with firm leadership about. Hey, we need, you know, we need more hands to do the, to do all these things, right? Marketing has evolved so much. It's not just that we need, you know, help on the digital side. Like, we wanna scale up and do more events. Well, doing more events takes a lot more, it takes more hands, right? Mm-hmm. We wanna have more hands-on training to get our visible experts out there doing more things that takes more hands, right? There's just some things that, you know, as much as, you know, hinge can be a trusted, you know, outsourced partner. And we are for a lot of clients, There's some things that in-house you have, you have, you just need some marketing bandwidth to do it really well. Yeah. And it takes time and it takes, and, and, and some of those things require building trust with people again. So it's like things that would be really hard to outsource. So, um, I would turn to the data and, and make a good compelling case. Why do you need to replace this person? but then come prepared to have a, a really substantive conversation about why, you know, your marketing team. Should be larger and how it would benefit the firm. I thought you were about to drop that hinges your trusted advisor line. No. Yeah, I, I know that that would immediately get me banned from the podcast. That's right. So what I hear you saying is, get creative with outsourcing to external service providers. Uh, look at market research and maybe push back a little bit on the hiring freeze and kind of bring some rationale as to why those hiring decisions need to be made. Well, and be, and be clear about what you're, what you're looking for. Be clear. Make it crystal clear what skills you need and what, um, you know, how, how a new person would help and fill a role. Excellent. Those are all really great points. Well, if you're struggling with how do I get past this hiring freeze, how do I make the right case for adding marketing head count? Give us a call at Hinge. Talk to Joe, talk to Austin, talk to Mary Blanche, and they can help you out with some of these questions as well. Alright, our final question on this mailbag segment comes from Dale, who is a CMO at an engineering firm, and Dale asks, Hey, we keep hearing about video marketing. Most of our team is remote. What are some scrappy ways that our team can get started with video marketing for the firm? Austin, do you wanna lead us off with this one? Yeah, sure. I mean, um. I, I would point to our podcast as an example of, uh, what, what's going on right now? I'm, I'm filming you. It's video marketing. Oh, yeah. It's so easy to just pick up a phone and, and, and, you know, start filming and stuff, which is true. But, you know, to get people to break through that comfort zone is not easy. Right? Yeah. That's right. Exactly. And that's where we've, we've, one of the themes of the episode has been working with thought leaders, building trust with your subject matter experts internally. And maybe one of the hardest, you know, trust barriers to break is that. Barrier of being on camera. Mm-hmm. Uh, people that are not, um, accustomed to being on camera, they're just uncomfortable with it. So that's where you have to start. Like who is your on-camera talent? You know, who are your best possible candidates? Um, and then work with them. Give them the tools they need. You know, uh, I, I think I would point to our, our podcast as a good example. I mean, um, we really for, for many years took a break, um, after the pandemic on creating more video content simply because, you know, we had. exited our, our office where we had a studio set up. Yeah. Lights. This whole, you know, everything that you see here, we had that. and it took us a few years to kind of pivot and realize like, Hey, it's perfectly okay to record kind of, uh, remote content, but it takes training, it takes time. Um, but I would say absolutely 100%. Start thinking about your video strategy because, um, with how, how search channels are changing, we need to be thinking about how we get more video content out there from our subject matter experts about what we do. Um, Joe, what do you think? Yeah, I mean, just look at the trends. I mean, the tiktoks a thing for a reason, right? RIP Vine, by the way, which is put back, well back. That's a but no, in general though. Nowadays, I picked up the phone. I was kind of kidding. But realistically, this phone's, the power that you have in your hand to create HD 4K con type content with an Apple iPhone is, is, gets you plenty of the way there. And if you're just thinking about simplistic microphones, things along those lines, the cost barrier for entry has completely evaporated. Mm-hmm. And when you can create that type of setup. Something as easy as that. Then you can focus on the thing that I think you brought up, which is most important, which is getting experts on camera folks. Yeah, of course people get nervous around those types of things, and there's challenges, but what people care about in professional services is expertise. So if they're just talking about the things that they know about, right, that the stuff that they sell on a day-to-day basis in terms of how they work with their clients. All those different areas and they're just talking about that it should come out and we can clip it down. Right? That's what Post pod's for, that's what for, that's what Producer John's for. We have, we have Producer John to help us. When I ramble on and on and on, like I'm doing right now, one of, one of the plays I'm recommending right now is for every company to kind of look at their website. Analytics, what are the top performing blog posts? How are people finding your website? What are they searching and what's performing well in terms of what people are reading? And then go back to those experts and see if they'd be willing to, to, to shoot a short interview with you about the blog post. Yeah, right. Create a video version of that. Publish the video on your website. And people will start getting views. It gives you kind of exposure to maybe a YouTube account or somewhere. Mm-hmm. but create a video version so people are more likely to engage with it. video goes much farther than just, you know, thinking about social media channels and things like that. Like we there a lot of, a lot of companies have produced really, really good quality research. guides. We'll take those and create video content outta it. That's right. It's, uh, it's, it's just a lane that, uh, should absolutely be explored. All right, so what I hear you saying is use the device that's in your pocket. Mm-hmm. Right? You've got the power of, you know, 4K cameras right at your disposal. but then also go back to the content that you've already created. That That's right. And repurpose that, recycle it, you know, embed that YouTube video on the blog page and so forth. So, If you've made it this far. Follow the show on YouTube. Follow the show on Apple Podcast, Spotify podcast. Uh, send your question to podcast@hingemarketing.com and we will read your question on the next edition of the Spiraling Up mailbag.