Spiraling Up — Marketing For Professional Services

Crazy, Stupid Rebrands (and How to Avoid Catastrophe)

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Rebrands are hard. And when they go wrong, they can be really wrong.

In this episode of Spiraling Up, the Hinge team takes a playful—but deeply practical—look at Crazy, Stupid Rebrands: the most common ways professional services firms sabotage their own brand transformations.

Using a game-based format inspired by classic romantic comedies, the team dissects real branding blunders—from research-free repositioning and internal power struggles to rushed launches that leave teams confused and clients unconvinced.

Listeners will learn:

  • Why most rebrands fail before design even begins
  • How internal alignment breaks down during brand transitions
  • What separates a “clean breakup” from a branding disaster
  • The strategic foundations every successful rebrand needs

This episode is equal parts entertaining and educational—and a must-listen for marketing leaders, firm partners, and executives navigating brand change.

Untitled CAM 1 02:

It's that time of year again, it's the season of Valentine's Day, the season of love and flowers and chocolate covered strawberries, but. Right now, somewhere, sometime soon, There's gonna be a brand that makes a consequential branding blunder. They are gonna break up with their brand It could be a clean breakup, A new brand, a brand that propels them into a new era of growth and prosperity. Or the breakup could go poorly. It could be a breakup that is dragged out. dirty people are hurt it leaves the company confused No one knows what's going on anymore with the brand. Rebrands are hard. We know this. And so for Valentine's Day, while you might be watching the movie, crazy, stupid Love, we're gonna do a segment today called Crazy Stupid Rebrands. Welcome everyone. This is Spiraling Up with Hinge.

Austin McNair:

Welcome everyone to the Spiraling Up Podcast, the podcast for professional services marketers and business leaders. My name is Austin, and once again, we are here in the Richmond podcast studio, uh, together with Mary Blanc Kramer.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Hey, Austin.

Austin McNair:

And Joe Pope, how are we doing? We're here in Richmond with our, uh, you know, some, some old stomping grounds for you. That's right, Joe, as I understand it. And, and Mary Blanche. I mean, you live, you live nearby. You guys have got a lot of history here, but, uh, we have been, you know, in Richmond for a few days now spending time together. That's right. Frequenting some breweries, some old lunch spots that, that's right. It's been, it's been a great time so far.

Joe Pope:

Yeah. The Spiraling Up podcast crew has a lot of connection with the, the university or VCU, uh, it was where I went for undergrad. Nothing to do with. Podcasting. I was a biology pre-med student, so shout out to the School of Science and, and, and, uh, school of Life Sciences here at at VCU. But Mary Blanc, you've got something that's a bit more relevant right now. You're, you're here at VCU getting your MBA.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Yep. Yep. Getting my MBA class of, uh, 26. And actually we have, uh, Tamika here with us today from the brand center. She's getting her master's at the brand center at BCU. So yeah, it's, uh. A lot going on.

Austin McNair:

Well, I love all the Richmond connections. It's been, like I said, just a great time spending time with you guys filming a few episodes of the Spiraling Up podcast. For those listening, for those watching on YouTube, give us a like, uh, subscribe to the show. If you haven't done that, leave us a review. It really helps support the show. That's right. We've got a really. I would say dynamic experimental show today. Uh, we know the topic is gonna be all about rebranding, mary Blanc, you came up with a really creative game. You did. So

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

why don't we get into that? Let's do it.

Untitled CAM 3 03:

whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on, hold on. Before we get into our great segment here on crazy stupid Rebrands, I want to take a moment and say that if you has. Still haven't downloaded hinges. New 2026 high growth study executive summary. You're gonna wanna do that now. This free 40 page report talks all about how the fastest growing professional services firms, what they're doing with their marketing, how they're, what is their strategy, what, what techniques do they put more effort in? Where do they see the most marketing impact? It's free, and it's on our website@hingemarketing.com slash hgs. There you just put in your email and. You get the free report and we hope you find it useful.

Austin McNair:

All right, so listeners of the show will know that we've had kind of a recurring bit going on on the podcast now for, I think this will be our third episode. Right. And I don't know how we stumbled into it, but we have, we have designed a few episodes around these classic romantic comedy we did an episode called. 10 things we hate. Not about you, but about websites. Uh, we did not how to lose a man in 10 days. It was how to lose a lead in 10 days.

Joe Pope:

How to lose a guy in 10 days. But that,

Austin McNair:

that's fine. Okay. Okay. That's fine. The MCOM expert, I'm, I am not the romantic. You said how expert that you are.

Joe Pope:

Yeah. You said how did we stumble across this? It is because I'm

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

100%

Joe Pope:

Joe Love with romcom movies.

Austin McNair:

There you go. Okay. So today. Right. Uh, we are gonna do a segment called Crazy Stupid Rebrands. And of course, this is a playoff, the hilarious Steve Carell and Ryan Gosling movie, crazy, stupid Love and Mary Blanche, you planned this segment for us today. Did, why don't you tell us how it works?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Okay. Let's do it all right, well, we spent all morning dissecting some of the most baffling, what were they thinking? Rebrands in history. And now it's time to see if we can do any better. So today we're playing a game called Crazy Stupid Rebrands. And if you've ever played the game, apples to Apples, you'll know the setup. But we've given it a little bit of a corporate twist. So in the center we're gonna have a deck of branding blunder cards, and these represent those classic rebrand fails that we all love to hate. We also each have a hand of solutions cards, and these are gonna be our strategic fixes and the ways we try to mitigate the disaster to save the brand. So each round will flip over a blunder card and play the best suited solution from our hand. We'll talk through which fixes would actually work. Which ones can make things 10 times worse and how we would really handle the fallout. You guys ready to give it a shot?

Austin McNair:

I'm so ready to give this a shot. This is, uh, one of those ideas that I feel like really works'cause we're in the studio together. Yeah. And so I'm, I'm really excited to dive in.

Joe Pope:

Yeah. I don't think this would work if we were just on our computers.

Austin McNair:

Yeah. Not as, not as well, not

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

cards.

Austin McNair:

Yeah. You know,

Joe Pope:

we got props.

Austin McNair:

We're pretty creative.

Joe Pope:

Thank you. CVS at Richmond.

Austin McNair:

So I've got the bowl of blunder cards here, right? Yeah. Branding blunder. Branding blunder cards here. Branding blunder cards. So should we get started? Should I just pull the first one and then we'll go around and, and pass it around? All right. These are all mixed up, by the way. So did you

Joe Pope:

strategically mix mix them? Huh? Did you mix them beforehand?

Austin McNair:

I, I'm mixing'em right now. Okay. Oh, hold on.

Joe Pope:

I'll just,

Austin McNair:

you want pick the first, not

Joe Pope:

for the, for the listeners at home. He is mixing,

Austin McNair:

I'm mixing. He's mixing

Joe Pope:

the bowl.

Austin McNair:

Okay. Uh, I'll read the first blunder card and then why don't we, uh, discuss which solution. Is the best for us to to, to put towards it. Alright. Alright, so this one is called the group Think Gang. So the leadership team is launching a brand. Purely based on their gut feelings or how about vibes, right? Yeah, the vibes, uh, ignoring research that shows that they likely have an 80% gap in understanding of who their actual competitors are, uh, the vibes based rebrand. Um, so guys, what solution would you, uh. Would you maybe put down for this?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Mm.

Austin McNair:

And then we'll decide which one we like the best.

Joe Pope:

I mean, I think everybody who's ever touched a, a rebrand in, in the business to business world is kind of run across this type of thing. What did you, what did, what's the percentage of 80%

Austin McNair:

80% gap? Yeah. I mean, I, I think most, uh, you know, the idea is that the, the marketplace is full of competitors sometimes. We don't have a good eye on that. And so without secondary research, right, and you're going into a rebranding exercise. If you're not really looking around, if you're not trying to, you know, if you're not talking to your customers, if you're not looking at the competitive environment, again, it's just kind of vibes like, oh, I just feel like we need to, uh, change the name or do this or that. And, uh, I don't know. It seems risky to me.

Joe Pope:

It does. Which is why we have these amazing solution cards.

Austin McNair:

Yeah. So which one you got, Joe?

Joe Pope:

Well, I have the scientific Strategy Solution card.

Austin McNair:

Oh,

Joe Pope:

okay. Which basically says that. Everything that you just described in that branding blunder is being erased because we are gonna ground every branding decision in research facts rather than subjective gut feelings of partners. Okay, so I got to erase everything that they came in there.

Austin McNair:

What about you, mayor Blanc?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Well, on a similar note, um, I mean, Austin, you summed it up pretty well, but, uh, I went with independent client research. Ah, so hiring an impartial third party to interview clients and prospects to eliminate the 80% competitor perception. Yeah.

Austin McNair:

Interesting. Okay, so you guys are kind of both playing like a research forward. Uh,

Joe Pope:

we're, we are

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

erase card. We're anti anti vibes.

Joe Pope:

We are an, we are erasing their vibes with good, hard data.

Austin McNair:

You can't play this every, every round now, so you're getting rid of your, your research cards. Now. I might, hold on Marley.

Joe Pope:

I think I'm gonna hide it. It's gonna come back

Austin McNair:

out. I, I'll play the, the high growth differentiators. Now, can you get to good differentiators without research? Maybe not. So maybe I'm making a big mistake here, but you know, when we talk about, uh, rebrands or any kind of brand strategy, we're really thinking about how, what makes our company different and stand apart in a meaningful way. Um, the way that we measure this is three criteria. Mm-hmm. Is it true? Is it relevant? Like do people care about it and is it provable?

Joe Pope:

Mm-hmm.

Austin McNair:

It's kind of like three legs of a stool and if you take one of'em out, then it falls

Joe Pope:

right

Austin McNair:

over, it kind of falls, falls over. So it's the key part of the brand strategy. So I think for the group think gang that just is trying to make a vibe based rebrand, I would want to throw, I, I'd want to like pause and be like, okay, can we at least try to identify what are our real differentiators? But I will also say that without good research or a science based strategy mm-hmm. What you were talking about, that might be hard to do.

Joe Pope:

I think if we brought all three of these to the table, we are more than. Acceptably of, uh, averting this crisis, if you will, of the vibes based rebrand.

Austin McNair:

Okay. But who do we think has the best answer?'cause we've gotta give someone the point here.

Joe Pope:

I think we're gonna give it to Mary Blanche. She's referencing an independent third party agency that can do research as part of a rebranding decision. Thank you very much. I even know of one of those agencies. And if you'd like to talk to me about it, feel free to reach out, Joe Pope.

Austin McNair:

Alright, Joe, why

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

barking.com?

Austin McNair:

Why don't you pull our next, uh, branding Wonder Card card here?

Joe Pope:

That's, we are stirring the ball. Again, for those who are not enjoying us on YouTube,

Austin McNair:

let's create a discard pile as well.

Joe Pope:

Where's the discard? Just throw it.

Austin McNair:

Yeah, throw it on the

Joe Pope:

ground. Sorry to mess up your studio guys.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Just throw it on the ground.

Joe Pope:

All right, throw it on the ground. All right, I've drawn the next one. This branding blunder is known as the 50 shades of blue safety net. We're keeping the movie theme going aren't? Yeah, we really are. I guess technically it was a book for, I don't think that's

Austin McNair:

a romantic comedy though.

Joe Pope:

No, it's, go ahead. It's definitely not. There's some romance involved in that movie, but move on. Not the comedy. Okay, we're moving that. Alright. Uh, a shareholding partner insists on using a blue, a shade of blue, if you will. Mm-hmm. In the brand identity because every other competitor does this.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Hmm.

Joe Pope:

Interesting. So they want to use blue because they're afraid of looking different.

Austin McNair:

Mm-hmm.

Untitled CAM 2 01:

Um.

Joe Pope:

I mean, there's the obvious challenge right there. Anytime you do something like that, it makes it impossible for prospects to tell you apart.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Mm.

Joe Pope:

And part of a good brandy engagement is differentiation. We talked about differentiators.

Austin McNair:

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Joe Pope:

So how are we going to avoid the crisis of 50 shades of blue?

Austin McNair:

Okay. Mayor Blanche, what's your, what? Which option do you have?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Oh, y'all don't go to me first. This is a tough one for me. I don't have a great one for this one, but I All right. You got it.

Austin McNair:

I'm ready. Okay. You start. So if we're gonna, if we're feeling more risk averse, and I think that's, you know, there's nothing outright wrong with that, especially for maybe brands that have a rich history. They have a strong, you know, identifi identifiable brand strategy or brand, you know, brand assets. Um, I could, I could, I understand to be sympathetic to partners that would not want to go a wholly different creative direction. I think that that situation is common and obviously, and honestly con respectable, what I would offer as a solution, right, is if we're being a little bit more risk averse, I would put into the, you know, solution pile, a unified brand positioning.

Joe Pope:

Mm.

Austin McNair:

So this is essentially three to five sentence North Star. Defines how and why you are different and why clients should choose you. Okay? We're going with more of a, of a traditional, um, you know, uh, brand, uh, assets. We're not changing it too much. Let's make sure that our positioning is super strong.

Joe Pope:

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So that

Austin McNair:

would be what I'm throwing.

Joe Pope:

It's not like a new card we were using on the previous one where we were basically fighting the fire with fire. In terms of talking about research and strategy, I'm gonna go a similar route to you, Austin. I'm gonna go with niche specialization.

Austin McNair:

Mm-hmm.

Joe Pope:

Okay, so we're gonna stick with blue. That's fine. Blue's, we gotta have blue. All right. A very passionate blue partner. Uh, and we're gonna make it a less blue. Circumstance with the brand by narrowing their target audience to a specific industry or role to grow faster and become three times more likely to have a strong differentiator. So if we are in marketing, which we are, ways that you can make yourself immediately become more apparent or visible. Is by narrowing your focus if you do everything for everyone. The generalist approach.

Austin McNair:

Mm-hmm.

Joe Pope:

Marketers hate that. Anybody listening to this podcast, who's a pure marketer, is gonna agree with that type of concept as well. So if we specialize and we develop our differentiators and our messaging around a specific area, or in professional services pain point, then we're more likely, um. According to this, three times more likely to have a strong differentiator.

Austin McNair:

Okay. So something in the positioning realm as well.

Joe Pope:

Yeah.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

All right. So I'm gonna take a little bit of what you both just talked about. So if we've got good positioning and we're differentiating ourself, uh, in the marketplace, I'm gonna take those two things and bring it to life on the website with a signature quality video, uh, to produce. High production value stories about your company or case studies to engage them to engage the modern watch rather than read buyer. So I think you kind of take both of those things. You know, you can bring it into like a visual approach on the website and can bring it home that way if you're limited in in some other areas.

Austin McNair:

Yeah, I like that a lot. I mean, if you're not gonna take, you know, if your company is rebranding or renaming and, um, you're not gonna depart creatively too much in the terms of, um, maybe what the logo looks like or what the Color Pal overall color palette is gonna look like, that doesn't mean that you can't have like. These additional video assets or creative elements that can bring the brand to life. Right. Right. Uh, so I like that. That's a good option. Alright. Um, so we went more the positioning way she went video. Mm-hmm. Which of these, uh, I don't know, which one of these, uh, do we feel is the strongest? Who do we want to give this card to?

Joe Pope:

I mean, I unanimously threw it to Mary Blanche last time, but I, I'm not, I'm not as solidly in your camp with the video. I do love video very much. I think

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

it goes to one of the two of you.

Joe Pope:

But I think, yeah, the idea of positioning and differentiation are always. Two amazing ways of setting an organization apart, even when they have to be blue.

Austin McNair:

Mm mm.

Joe Pope:

Austin, who do you like yours better?

Austin McNair:

I own, I think Mary Blanc is the tiebreaker here. Which one did you like better?

Joe Pope:

Yeah,

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

I think I'm good with Austin on this

Joe Pope:

one. Ah, love it. Yeah,

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

love it.

Joe Pope:

Well, good differentiators are built from a positioning statement.

Austin McNair:

Yep.

Joe Pope:

Yeah, it all kind of rolls up to that North star, so that's,

Austin McNair:

that's right. Where's

Joe Pope:

my,

Austin McNair:

where's my card?

Joe Pope:

I'm handing it over to you. There we go. There.

Austin McNair:

It's all right.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

It's my turn to pick, right?

Austin McNair:

Yeah. Here you go. This is getting market. We're losing solutions

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

as we go

Joe Pope:

along.

Austin McNair:

That's right. That's right. That's how the game works. We could always reshuffle, but I think it's more fun to let'em. Dry up, see what we get. Might get a little wacky at the end.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Okay. This one is the merger mashup.

Austin McNair:

Mm-hmm.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

So the company is thinking about smashing two firm names together into an unpronounceable 10 syllable acronym that no one can remember.

Joe Pope:

10 syllable

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

acronym Test, test, test.

Austin McNair:

This is probably one of the sillier options in the bucket.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Yes, I love

Austin McNair:

it. Uh, but renaming is a big, you know, a big decision. It is, right? It's, uh, and it's not an uncommon decision. I think we work with a lot of industries like, uh, accounting and financial services, law firms, law firms where they love a law. Um, you know, there's a lot of partners. Their names are put, pulled together. Oftentimes these, you know, come in the form or get condensed in the form of acronyms. Um, but there's a lot of acronyms out there, right? That's right. And so, for a lot of our clients, I know that we do do a lot of exploring in terms of renaming exercises to, you know, through research and, you know, through, you know, secondary research as well to, to understand like, okay, what a rename. Is this the time for a rename? If we're thinking about redoing the website, we're redoing the brand guidelines. Is this the time to pivot towards a new name? Uh, so what solutions would you guys bring to the table? This is

Joe Pope:

getting tougher now.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

I know

Austin McNair:

I can go first actually.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Okay.

Austin McNair:

the, the card that I have, I think maybe it's the best card that, that could, uh, help here is an internal brand launch. A really important part of like a, a new corporate identity, um, is that your internal people are aligned. So if the decision has been made and we are moving to this new fictional name mm-hmm. It might be too big. I at least want my team to all be on the same page. So I'm gonna bring together this internal brand lodge and make sure that the team is educated, that they're energized. That we, that we're clear about what our, our brand values are, and we go for it. Um, so if we can't get around the new the new name, I want to at least make sure that people are on board. Pumped with it. Pumped up, yeah. Pumped. Pumped up

Joe Pope:

with a terrible name.

Austin McNair:

Yep.

Joe Pope:

All right.

Austin McNair:

That's my

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

solution. Pump up. I'm ready to go. Alright. I can, unless you got it. Yeah, I can go next. Um, so I'm going with a small decision maker. Group. Okay. Um, so, you know, you think you're bringing these two huge companies together, right? That's a lot of cooks in the kitchen. Mm-hmm. Okay. I, you know, like being able to at least have alignment on this small group of decision makers that hopefully leads them to not a, to not do what they're doing.

Joe Pope:

Yeah. Okay.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

What about you, Joe?

Joe Pope:

Yeah, I, I like that. I, I, I actually did not have a, I, I like yours already, Mary, boy. So I think yours are probably gonna be the winner, but, uh, I did not have a, a strategic card, so I'm gonna have to deal with the fact that we now have a terrible name.

Austin McNair:

Mm-hmm.

Joe Pope:

I'm gonna have to own it.

Austin McNair:

Mm-hmm.

Joe Pope:

And I'm gonna help people in the marketplace understand it by doing a high profile interview series with key leaders from the organizations as they come together. So we are featuring these amazing names. And we're gonna feature them in the form of video. Mm-hmm. And we're gonna, you know, especially if it's based off founders and things along those lines, we're gonna help people in the marketplace understand who they are and what their expertise is. So we'll talk about the niches that they focus on, and we'll help develop credibility and visibility for everybody involved. So, at least with our terrible name, we've put some. Faces to the name.

Austin McNair:

Mm-hmm.

Joe Pope:

And helping us along the way.

Austin McNair:

Okay. Okay. So you and I kind of had to play, prevent there, you know, like we accepted that it's happening.

Joe Pope:

Damage control is probably a better way of saying

Austin McNair:

it. Mary Blanche is the only one that was like, yeah, we're gonna try to stop this before it happens. This is not happening. Stop this crazy stupid rebrand. Uh, so for that reason, I think I might go with Mary Blanche. Yeah, I think

Joe Pope:

Mary Blanche is one on this one too.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Thank you guys. I'll happily take my point and give you the bowl. Austin.

Joe Pope:

I will, I will point out there were now three things in and I have yet to win a card.

Austin McNair:

Yeah, it's kind of the theme for how this a theme in this podcast, theme of this podcast. Right? Um, okay. So our next branding blunder, uh, is called the Everything Everywhere, all At Once Trap.

Joe Pope:

We're keeping the movie themes going here. We really are.

Austin McNair:

Yeah, we love movies. Uh, big movie group, the, this is where an internal leader is refusing. To specialize their brand strategy out of the fear that they could be leaving money on the table. Uh, ensuring that the firm kind of remains indistinguishable as a commodity and that cannot command premium fees. So it's a, it's a fear-based brand strategy that says like, well, if we. Specialize, then maybe we're missing out over here. just real quick, like, on that issue, um, is that common? Do you, do we run into this

Joe Pope:

extremely common?

Austin McNair:

Yeah. Talk to us

Joe Pope:

about it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is, uh, Mary Blanc used a card in the last one to talk about making a decision making group smaller. And then, and we have already talked about research, and both of those are awesome solutions, but because of this game and the fact we've already burned those cards, we're probably gonna have to get a bit more creative on how we overcome this. But the, the idea here is that you truly can't be everything for everyone. Uh, and it's, it's so interesting that we see this a lot of times with websites as well, right? Mm-hmm. Where every single practice group feels like they need to have their own special subsite.

Austin McNair:

Hmm.

Joe Pope:

Microsite or things along those lines. But if you go to some of the largest consulting firms, your PWCs, your Deloitte, things along those lines, their navigations are simple. They're not, I mean, they do everything right. Yeah. These are massive groups, but they're not showing that on their forward facing assets because it gets extremely confusing. It doesn't allow them to stand out. So I would say, you know, it is a common thing that we run into, uh, and it is the type of thing that you do try to nip in the bud in any way you can.

Austin McNair:

Yeah. Um, okay, so for the everything everywhere, all at once, trap, Mary Blanche, do you have a card that you picked up?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

I do, I don't have a ton to pick from here, but I'm gonna go with the content marketing strategy. Mm-hmm. Right? Because if, you know, they're committed to, um, being everything to everyone, I'm gonna want to identify what all the everythings are, and then I'm gonna want to build a content strategy around that. Um, so being able to provide a steady stream of useful educational information to build trust and increase both their reputation and their visibility.

Joe Pope:

That's pretty good.

Austin McNair:

Yeah, that's a good one. Um, I, I, I'm tempted here to kind of play one that just like directly contradicts the, the card, but I instead, I'll, I'll say that we do a, uh, groundbreaking research project is the name of my card, uh, where we conduct an original industry study to become the defacto leader on an emerging issue. So in a sense, like again, if there's, um, internal friction where we are. Positioning ourselves a little bit more. As a generalist, I would at least want to have some research that informs a strong brand strategy, informs strong messaging, and still gets to the heart of like speaking to the right audience. Mm-hmm. Saying the right things that they care about. Um, I think even if, you know,'cause some, some companies will be. Like more generalists. And you mentioned a few, a few of the larger ones and how they do it. You can still kind of lead with messaging and um, like a brand strategy that speaks to the heart of, you know, what your, the audience is looking for. And I think that's, you know, some sort of research forward project can get you there,

Joe Pope:

right? So you're. In a sense, fighting poor branding with strong marketing.

Austin McNair:

Yes.

Joe Pope:

Yeah. Right. And you've got a piece, you got a piece of collateral and an asset that you can then dissect a hundred different ways. Anytime you do some sort of research report. I mean, you can turn a research report into webinars, blogs, newsletters, videos, everything. And you imagine mm-hmm. So we're, we're creating something that's groundbreaking. Mm-hmm. I like that. So we've got two in a sense. We've got some marketing tactics to overcome a, a poor brand strategy. I'm gonna complete that trifecta, which will make it. Interesting for us to decide who wins. Uh, but I'm gonna lead from the provocative newsletter perspective. Okay. So email is still king in marketing for obvious reasons. Allows us to keep track of our prospects who's engaging with our content, remarket them in various ways. But we're going to shift from company centric fluff

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

mm-hmm.

Joe Pope:

To industry or multiple industry focused newsletters that deliver controversial or groundbreaking value. Hmm. So we're gonna try to zig when everybody else zags or whatever that phrase is. Mm-hmm. Uh, and create some sort of content that allows us to speak to these various industries that, of course we're everything for, uh, in a way that at least allows us to stand out.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Okay.

Austin McNair:

Where are you leaning?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

I don't know. This is a tough one. We kind of all came at it from a, a different angle.

Joe Pope:

I, all right. I have an idea. We have our intern, Tamika, who she's joined us in the studio. Tamika, help us out. Who wins. Joe?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Yes.

Austin McNair:

Yeah. Okay.

Joe Pope:

I

Austin McNair:

love it. I was sort of leaning Joe your way too.'cause I think yours was the most tactical, right? So for marketers that are put in this kind of situation, um, you know, I think the newsletter strategy is big right now. Yeah. Especially if you combine it. We haven't really talked about visible experts yet. I'm sure one of you guys is sitting on that card. Um, but the, um, you know, having some sort of, um. Targeted proactive newsletter like you described. I see, I see. As a great strategy to try to, you know, work through.

Joe Pope:

It's provocative.

Austin McNair:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Prob it's provocative. Yeah.

Joe Pope:

Yeah. Gets the people going.

Austin McNair:

Gets the people going. Alright. Joe, you're, uh, you're pulling our next card here.

Joe Pope:

Yeah. I got, I'm off the, I'm on off the, I

Austin McNair:

think we've got three, I I think we've got room for three rounds yet before we might have to reshuffle these cards or something, but let's, I think we got three rounds

Joe Pope:

here. Yeah. Okay. Let's see. Uh, I have just drawn a card. For the ones who are not watching on YouTube. Mm-hmm. I've been told by Austin that I need to describe things for those that are listening.

Austin McNair:

Correct? Yes, that's

Joe Pope:

right. Yes.

Austin McNair:

This is a audio forward medium as well.

Joe Pope:

Yes, that's right. Uh, the internal proxy war is our oh boy, branding blunder. Uh, so rival practice leaders are using the branding process as a Game of Thrones. No, I added that, uh, as a battleground over firm direction. And they're turning simple strategic decisions into a fight for status. That ignores the realities of the marketplace.

Austin McNair:

This was one of your favorites as we were planning this episode. Yeah. Uh, what, what, what have you seen in this front, like in terms of, you know, talking to, to companies that are thinking about going through this rebranding process? How does this sort of, uh, enter the fold?

Joe Pope:

Uh, this almost always will come out in initial conversations with prospects, and then this includes when they even deliver a request for a proposal. Style approach to branding. Mm-hmm. And you can start to read between the lines of why some of the reasons are for the rebrand. It's al it's amazing. You'll, you'll know that this is coming before it actually occurs. Uh, and, and in those circumstances, again, prevention is key because. If you allow a rebrand to become a runaway freight train of people's opinions and thoughts.

Austin McNair:

Yeah,

Joe Pope:

and we talked about strategy and data earlier. It can get sideways real quick, but yeah. This one, uh, it's interesting that you'll, you'll hear this in a variety of industries, professional services across the board. Uh, you can't help but get a bunch of strong-willed people, uh, taking this as their opportunity to leave their mark.

Austin McNair:

Yeah. Yeah. Mary Blanche, uh, what, what are you bringing to the table here? We're, we're down to fewer cards now. This is getting challenging.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Mm-hmm. I, I am gonna have to get a little creative here, but I, I think the best suited, one of what I have left is the vetted feedback loop. Mm-hmm. Um, I'll read what the card says and then I'll kinda give my rationale. So vetted feedback loop, uh, organizing all internal feedback and resolving conflict. Points of view before sending them to the creative team. So I think that's what you gotta do. You gotta find a way that you can organize all of, of that feedback and all the, the conflict that's going on back and forth. Game of Thrones as as as you say. And you know, once you can really. Get all those cards on the table, no pun intended. Um, you can, you can really start to work through some, some solutions.

Austin McNair:

Yeah, I think that's a pretty good answer. That's gonna be hard to be, that's gonna be hard be, um, mine I'm picking is gonna be secondary market research. So, you know, if you're trying to build alignment, um, as you described them, uh, amongst a group of strong-willed. Leaders, Kings. Kings, you know, that are spread out across an organization. Um, you have to speak to them in a way that, um, they can trust and that they can, you know, maybe gather around. So I've got secondary market research. You know, this could be economic data by behavior studies, uh, any kind of data that could validate, um, you know, if you know what the, what the right brand strategy or approach should be. Mm-hmm. To try to just. Coalesce and, and build a little bit more internal alignment. Yep. Although I can see how that would, uh, kind of be difficult.

Joe Pope:

Mm-hmm.

Austin McNair:

Joe, what do you got?

Joe Pope:

All right. Well, I, I think I have a card that potentially could rival Mary Blanche's answer. Okay. And I'm gonna designate a single point of contact. Mm-hmm. I'm gonna add who sits on the Iron Throne. And so we're gonna assign one person who's gonna oversee the large communication basis or process throughout the organization so they can speak directly to the branding partner to streamline. The process throughout. Mm-hmm. And, and hopefully in that type of circumstance, if we can get single points of contact into place, then the branding partner can, uh, in a sense feed them the information they need to help overcome the warring kings and queens and move the branding process forward in a way that doesn't become unruly or bloody.

Austin McNair:

Really good.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Yeah.

Austin McNair:

I mean, I think between both of your answers, you had the, the, the two best. Mm-hmm. If I'm the tiebreaker in this scenario, I'm probably gonna go towards Joe.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

I think Joe has the better between the two of us. I

Joe Pope:

think it's just because I started talking about Game of Thrones analogies, but Sure.

Austin McNair:

Well, I, you know, I, I know that we, we recommend this to our clients as they get organized to work with us, whether it be in a rebrand or just like a website redesign. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, who's the point of who, who, who is your champion? Mm-hmm. Who is the internal person? Who this big initiative is, they're gonna take responsibility for it. They're gonna be kind of the decision maker. I think without that clarity, like you said, this scenario can really, um, it can become costly too, right? Yeah. It's not just that red wedding. Yeah. It, it's not just that, that, that the, the output or the end product ends up being suboptimal. It could be costly in terms of, you know, dragging things out, adding things that were not necessarily needed. Um, so I think in that big scenario, like, I, I like your, your card there.

Joe Pope:

Brilliant. I love it.

Austin McNair:

Did I give it to you? Do you have it? I, I took it. You already have it very quickly. Yeah. Got it.

Joe Pope:

Snuck in there.

Austin McNair:

All right.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

All right. So what's the score now? I've got two.

Joe Pope:

I've got two.

Austin McNair:

Awesome. I've got one. So, okay. Maybe this is my chance to lose.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Ah, the great people cliche. So the HR director insists on using exceptional people as a primary differentiator. Failing to realize it is a weak unprovable claim that every competitor makes

Joe Pope:

our people make the difference.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Our people are the best.

Joe Pope:

Uh, yeah.

Austin McNair:

Okay, Joe, uh, before we get into the answers, what would you say? Why, why is that cliche.

Joe Pope:

I mean, it's, it's right up there. Next to we're your trusted advisor in terms of completely tired and useless differentiators. How many times have you seen it?

Austin McNair:

Yeah. I mean, it's all over the place, right?

Joe Pope:

Yeah. It's, it's on websites, it's how people talk. It's the first thing that people say when they, in their organization, people

Austin McNair:

are different. Yeah.

Joe Pope:

Yeah.

Austin McNair:

So what is the, like if we just were to zone in specifically, I know we're gonna talk solutions cards and we've each got a couple left, so this might get kind of creative. Um, but like generally when we, when, when companies, and we all do, you know, experts are at the forefront of how we go to market as professional services firms. Mm-hmm. What are ways that we can talk about our people that are. More differentiated,

Joe Pope:

centering it around their knowledge.

Austin McNair:

Mm-hmm.

Joe Pope:

Right. Like, so instead of saying, you know, our people are what make us different mm-hmm. Explain what your people actually do. Mm-hmm. That sets them apart.

Austin McNair:

Yeah.

Joe Pope:

Uh, that it, if you can, we talked about differentiators, right? And you, you broke it down earlier in the episode. Uh, what are the three keys again, Austin,

Austin McNair:

whether it is true. Whether it's relevant and whether it's provable.

Joe Pope:

Right. So you take those three elements to how we describe someone's knowledge. Mm-hmm. Some expert's knowledge and start leading with those types of details. Yeah. Versus, oh, our people are super cool. Then suddenly we have something that is, that truly resonates with folks. So I, I think you can, you can take the, our people are the difference and, and morph it. And maybe some of us have solutions cards mm-hmm. Remaining, although I don't, that will allow us to speak to that. But, uh, I'm interested to see what you guys come up with.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Well, you have perfectly teed me up, Joe, for my amazing Jumping right in Solution card. Um, so I have visible expert program. Okay. So, you know. Game

Joe Pope:

over. Game over.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Yeah. So, deliberately developing high profile experts to leverage the halo effect, which, uh, strengthens the entire firm's brand. So my thought here is, you know, if we're committed to saying that our people are the best, then I'm gonna leverage the Visible expert program to, to show them how they are the best and how they are the experts in their field. Why they, they should kind of come work with us.

Joe Pope:

Okay. Yeah. This is kinda like apples to apples, right? So I can just waste a card now because Nerd Blanc is already won. So what's, what's like my worst card remaining? I'll just try to wax poetic about why it's

Austin McNair:

okay. I've got a specialized industry conference, which I love, a specialized, you love a good conference. I love a good specialized industry conference. I'm not sure. How I could, uh, force that into this answer going, I'm gonna throw that on a

Joe Pope:

table. Keep spinning,

Austin McNair:

keep spinning, keep spinning. What do you got? What are you sacrificing?

Joe Pope:

I wanted to hear you try to explain how that was gonna, how we overcame it. You're just

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

gonna take

Austin McNair:

all the great, you're great people. You host a conference, you, you, you bring people, people in, let people see the people and see the people.

Joe Pope:

Yeah. Yeah. People with people.

Austin McNair:

No, there's a good answer. Isn there,

Joe Pope:

there's a song there too. Uhhuh. Alright. Yeah. I mean, I just got nothing here. Uh, so how do we make our people the difference?

Austin McNair:

Yeah.

Joe Pope:

Well we, we track. Baseline metrics.

Austin McNair:

Okay.

Joe Pope:

For these people. Mayor

Austin McNair:

Blanc, give her the card.

Joe Pope:

Wait, you're not gonna let me try to explain this.

Austin McNair:

Oh, go for it. Yes,

Joe Pope:

ahead. Sorry. Uh, we're establishing clear KPIs. People love KPIs. Mm-hmm. They love ROI. They love acronyms,

Austin McNair:

uhhuh,

Joe Pope:

these all are things that are important.

Austin McNair:

Yep.

Joe Pope:

And marketers have to put them together in reports.

Austin McNair:

Yep.

Joe Pope:

On a quarterly basis.

Austin McNair:

Yep.

Joe Pope:

And if we establish them together, we can move ourselves in a direction where our people are. The difference in data form.

Austin McNair:

Okay.

Joe Pope:

Yeah, all

Austin McNair:

mayor bla, you get mayor gets it. Okay. Which I think might be three for

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

me.

Austin McNair:

Yeah, I think

Joe Pope:

she just won.

Austin McNair:

I think I just won again. I think you just won, but I

Joe Pope:

still have We still have cards left though, right?

Austin McNair:

Have, let's do the last one. Let's do the last one. I got one card left. Here's

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

the quote.

Joe Pope:

I cannot wait to see how you use your one card.

Austin McNair:

Yeah. See, get, get real creative here.

Joe Pope:

Why do you have one card? And we have two cards.

Austin McNair:

That's a good question.

Joe Pope:

This just shows you the prep time that goes into the, uh, spiraling Up podcast. Okay. We have wrong number of cards.

Austin McNair:

So we're, we're talking about a, uh, brand strategy, right? And avoiding these branding blunders. Uh, this one is called the Content Free Facade. Oh. So a company is spending a hundred thousand dollars on a gorgeous high performing website full of custom photography. Ooh, pretty fancy integrations. But neglects to include any thought leadership content required to build trust, improve expertise.

Joe Pope:

Oh,

Austin McNair:

um, yes. And so, and, and we, I think there's lots of examples of, um. How this can, can play out. But you, one thing we hadn't really mentioned that when we think about branding, we're not just thinking about logos, we're not thinking about brand guidelines, materials like a brand is your company's reputation combined with its visibility.

Joe Pope:

That's

Austin McNair:

right. And um, why is this a blender? I would say mostly because you're limiting the amount of visibility. That you can go out there and garner and generate for your company. Um, for, for many marketers out there, we know how difficult it can be to kickstart and to, uh, have a high performing content marketing strategy. But in the year of our Lord 2026, it is like a necessary thing, but that's right. Um, a a lot of companies still. Struggle with getting out a, a consistent high quality content strategy.

Joe Pope:

Yeah. When we were prepping for this episode, we were looking up examples of large brands who Hinge would never support. Right. B2C type corporations and things.

Austin McNair:

Yeah.

Joe Pope:

Mary Blanc, you brought up, uh, a good example for this. I think it was WeWork.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

WeWork, yep.

Joe Pope:

Yeah. They had a massive branding blunder when they had a failed IPO and mm-hmm. Leadership had to exit.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Yeah.

Joe Pope:

I think they made a good Apple TV series, or, I can't remember what streamer did this on this, but, uh. They, uh, they, they in a sense had to basically rapidly change what their image looks like. Mm-hmm. And they went with this minimalistic, sleek style website that, you know, while it looked cool. Nobody understood actually what was different about it.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Yeah. And it didn't build trust. There was, there was no information. There was No, it was, it was pretty, but

Joe Pope:

pretty.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Yeah. It lacked substance.

Joe Pope:

It probably cost more than a hundred thousand dollars too. I think for our card we only have a hundred thousand, but I would imagine there's say probably was a bit more.

Austin McNair:

So what are you guys gonna throw down here for the solution on the, the content free facade

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Well, I have the answer. Oh,

Joe Pope:

geez.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

So, uh, high, high performance website is, is a card and, uh, transform your site. Ub, a lead generation machine that focuses on educational content rather than just vibes. It's, it's literally likes a good, you

Austin McNair:

have the answer.

Joe Pope:

So she has the answer,

Austin McNair:

the, the, okay. The problem was on the table. She had the answer. What did you have, Joe?

Joe Pope:

Not that, uh, mine's kind of. Good. Not nearly that good. Uh, but a marketing strategy refresh. So we are replacing a tired, outdated, print, material based marketing strategy with digital e brochures, pitch decks, and meet the expert videos mm-hmm. That allow us to build confidence

Austin McNair:

mm-hmm.

Joe Pope:

In the, uh, solutions that our organization brings for the problems that their, their, uh, their clients have. So. Still not as high performance as Mary Blanche, but I, I think it, it kind of scratches the itch.

Austin McNair:

Mm-hmm.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Yeah. Yeah.

Austin McNair:

Uh, I don't think my card applies that well. Uh, mine is called the spin the Sacrifice play. Uh, pur purposely walk away from a generalist service line to gain total dominance in a high value niche. So, you know, if we're going content free. Uh, if we're not gonna be marketing with thought leadership content and getting out there, putting our experts out there, building trust, we need to at least position our business then so that it stands out on its own outside of a content marketing strategy. Mm-hmm. So I take it back to the branding strategy, focusing, dialing in on the positioning, getting that completely right, serving a, uh, underserved niche, high value niche, and, um, pressing hard into that.

Joe Pope:

Okay. Yeah. So I mean, if you're gonna have a hundred thousand dollars, uh, business card. Yeah. At least it speaks to one very important thing.

Austin McNair:

Correct.

Joe Pope:

All right.

Austin McNair:

Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Pope:

That's not a bad answer. You spun that pretty well actually. Yeah, you did. That was be much better than me trying to, what was the one I just spun? Yeah, nevermind. We'll just ignore what I did earlier.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Baseline metrics.

Joe Pope:

Baseline metrics, yeah.

Austin McNair:

KPIs. Let's do it. So, um, last card giveaway here. Um. I'm inclined to just let Mary Blanche run up the score. Here you go.

Joe Pope:

She's

Austin McNair:

just awesome. Congratulations. Thank Mary Blanc winning our crazy, stupid rebrands game. Crazy, stupid rebrand. Do you guys want hear some of the marketing blunders that Sure, yeah. We pull,

Untitled CAM 2 01:

let's

Joe Pope:

run

Austin McNair:

through. Okay. I'll read a couple of these and maybe we can just talk about why these are, these are issues. Um, and maybe close out with just like a couple words on, you know. If, if you're going through a rebrand, what would you,

Joe Pope:

yeah.

Austin McNair:

You know, what would the real process look like?

Joe Pope:

Let's provide educational content.

Austin McNair:

Yeah. Okay. So this one, uh, is called the Ghost Launch. So this is when, uh, uh, a marketing leader would, would treat the brand rollout as a technical task. And they would hit publish on a new website without giving the business development or sales team any talking points that they need to explain the new positioning. So like, Hey, we need, we need to push through this rebrand process as fast as possible. Focus all on the, you know, on the, on the, the website, the logo, you know, kind of the pretty things that people can see, but you're missing that internal alignment piece. Right?

Joe Pope:

You guys know I'm a huge action movie fan. Also a huge romantic comedy movie fan. I heard Ghost, I immediately went to the action classic Mission Impossible Ghost Protocol

Austin McNair:

Uhhuh

Joe Pope:

featuring a Tom Cruise, uh, in, in another amazing role. And, uh, in that movie, he was given a mission should he choose to accept it, uhhuh. And so we need to give our teams a mission for them to accept and, and that mission is to be able to speak to directly how this new brand. Is the brand to end all brands. It's the one that's gonna solve all of these challenges and problems in a niche and other cards that we've played thus far. Uh, so yeah, absolutely. We need to ghost protocol our way through. Uh, we need to send Ethan Hunt. He's gonna solve it for us, and we're gonna make sure that our sales team actually knows what the hell's going on before we launch a website.

Austin McNair:

Maybe we need to launch like a meta game within the podcast of who can drop the most movie references through the episodes. Did I win that contest? Probably. You probably win that one. That one. Uh, okay. I'll quickly go through these other options that we had. So this one was the identity first sprint. So this is. Similar to the one we were just talking about. A team member is demanding cool logo design before the firm has even defined their strategy. Well, we wouldn't really recommend that we no focus on the brand positioning and the strategy. You

Joe Pope:

talked about what a brand was already, and, and identity is a way you respond and respect your brand, but not what your brand is.

Austin McNair:

All right, Mary Blanche, I'm interested in your thoughts on this one. This is, we call it this one, the kitchen cabinet approach. Mm-hmm. Which is when the leadership team, they're planning. They're choosing between a few different logo concepts. And so what they do is they send out, um, the three top options. Uh, to the entire staff of the company to see which, uh, which logo concept they feel like is the best cultural fit. Would you recommend doing that?

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Yeah, that's a mistake. That goes back to what I was talking about earlier, about having that either, well, Joe talked about the, the single point of contact or like a, like I was talking about the, the small focus group. But you need to keep a, a small, tight group of, of decision makers. So no, no e-blast of of decisions to the entire organization.

Austin McNair:

To the, yeah, to the whole team. Um. Here, Joe. This one is called the disengaged team. This was a branding blunder where we set the project lead, who presumably is managing this, this rebrand. Um, they allow work, you know, reality to intervene, right? Mm-hmm. Client work is here. Uh, life is hard. Like, you know, things are dragging and the company falls into a state of limbo where the, the, the brand is never, the new brand is never fully implemented.

Joe Pope:

Yeah. Yeah. This is what happens when you don't lead with strategy. Right. Yeah. Like if you don't have a game plan from the jump on how this brand is gonna come to play, this is honestly what you'll see happen a lot of times when organizations go identity first. Mm-hmm. Because, you know, you, you race to this process where you're like, oh yeah, we've got this new color, we've got this new logo. It's great. What do we do now?

Austin McNair:

Mm-hmm.

Joe Pope:

Right? But like, oh, okay, let's try to backwards compatible all these other pieces into this logo or these colors and things along those lines becomes a huge mess. So I, I, I think Mary Blanc was just talking to us about smaller decision making groups, things along those lines. That's another way that you can kind of have support. So if one of the decision makers of this small group is, uh, sidetracked for, you know, major client issue or things along those lines, mm-hmm. Uh, the rest of the crew can keep growing because they've, uh, keep going because they've, they've given each other that type of power.

Austin McNair:

Well said, um, Mary Blanche, this one's called the aspirational overload. The visionary founder has created a brand promise so unrealistic that it's not grounded in the firm's daily reality causing a loss of credibility and trust when the firm fails to deliver.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Yeah, that goes back to the research. So it, it all starts with research, and if you can stay grounded in, in those research findings, then, then you'll be, you'll be good.

Austin McNair:

All right, two more. So this one is the auto auto automation obsession. So an efficiency driven marketer is using generic AI to write all thought leadership content. Oh no. Providing to provide to, to provide unique, high value insights that cultivate trust and build visible expertise. I think that one's a little self-evident. Uh, our last one is the data hoarder. So a company conducted a massive client research project. Oh. But then is allowing internal fear of change to block any actual adjustments to the firm's strategy rendering the data investment useless.

Joe Pope:

That's a, you know, that's an interesting one. So like they did. The right thing. Mm-hmm. They went out and sought insight and information, hopefully from a third party provider or somebody who can provide that, you know, that neutral point of view, and collecting this insight and information. They were handed that data and then they completely paralysis over what we should do next. I think some of that comes down to the partners you choose to work with you on that type of engagement. You know how you present findings does matter.

Austin McNair:

Mm-hmm.

Joe Pope:

You know, because if you just dump a CSV file on people. I mean, there's people that really love CSV files, accountants, I'm looking at you. But everybody else in those types of circumstances, it can get really challenging. So yeah, again, I think that's where the, having a trusted partner, yeah, an advisor, if you will, but working with a group that maybe has some experience in this would help avoid that challenge.

Austin McNair:

Yeah. Um, well guys, this has been a lot of fun.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

This has been fun.

Austin McNair:

All the, all the ways that a rebrand could potentially go sideways, but I mean, let's not, uh, undermine the fact that any company that is going through some sort of rebrand that is going through any kind of change to their brand strategy, it's, it's kind of a scary moment, right? Mm-hmm. And, um, you know, I think that Hinge has written a lot on this topic. We have tons of resources on our website. We can link to those. In the description, we have

Joe Pope:

a rebranding guide.

Austin McNair:

We have a rebranding guide

Joe Pope:

available for an email.

Austin McNair:

And so, but I think the, the bottom line here, a couple of the themes that we've, we've underscored is, uh, it's important to choose the right. The right partner. Yeah. Yeah. It's important to, to lead with the research and the brand strategy first, not just jumping straight into designing logos and to doing all the fun stuff. Right. We need to, we have to have a strong positioning. Mm-hmm. We have to have a strong understanding of who our audience is. This was fun, guys. I love it. It was, yeah. Mayor Blanche, thanks for organizing Such a great game.

Mary-Blanche Kraemer:

Anytime. Yeah.

Austin McNair:

Well, for all of our viewers and listeners, uh, we hope that you found this entertaining, that you learned a little bit about a rebranding process and kind of the hinges perspectives mm-hmm. On what we think makes a really strong clean. Great, uh, rebranding process, rebranding strategy, brand strategy, all of the above. Um, and make sure you on your way out like the video, subscribe, send us your questions if you have questions, uh, comments, ideas.

Untitled CAM 2 01:

Yeah,

Austin McNair:

we're doing a mailbag.

Joe Pope:

We're doing a mailbag segment these days too.

Austin McNair:

Mailbag, segment, uh, questions. Send us an email at podcast@hingemarketing.com and we'll get back to you with some feedback, but another great episode. Thank you everybody. We'll see you on the next one.