Prepared to Drown: Deep Dives into an Expansive Faith
A monthly podcast featuring informative and diverse voices exploring contemporary topics ranging from religious deconstruction, anti-racism, and sexuality to holy texts, labour unions, and artificial intelligence.
Prepared to Drown: Deep Dives into an Expansive Faith
Episode 10 - Cannonballs and Bellyflops: Making a Splash with Listener Questions!
What happens when our three panelists put down their notes and just respond to whatever questions come their way? Magic, vulnerability, and surprisingly deep theology.
In our season finale, we're opening the floor to you—our listeners—taking on the questions you've been curious about all season long. From deeply personal reflections on bucket lists and finding joy to theological explorations of a non-binary God and whether church should ever make us uncomfortable, this raw, unscripted conversation covers terrain we hadn't planned to explore.
The episode begins with personal revelations about how we see our life goals, where we find happiness outside work, and the challenge of extending to ourselves the same grace we offer others. Bill opens up about his journey to therapy, Ricardo reflects on recognizing burnout, and Joanne shares how her adult children help her see herself more clearly. These vulnerable moments remind us that those who lead spiritual communities are navigating the same human struggles as everyone else.
Our theological discussion takes fascinating turns as we explore God beyond gender binaries, what it means for divine love to be "promiscuous," and how churches can balance creating safe spaces while still challenging comfortable assumptions. We also reflect candidly on our podcast journey—what surprised us, what we'd do differently, and the topics that still keep us up at night.
Though planned as our final episode of Season 1, we reveal an exciting surprise—a bonus episode coming in August featuring Sarah Charters from the United Church of Canada Foundation, recorded during General Council 45 in Calgary. And yes, Season 2 is already taking shape with deeper dives into Christian nationalism, embodied theology, and interfaith dialogue.
Whether you're a long-time listener or joining us for the first time, this episode showcases what makes theology worth exploring together—not the certainty of answers, but the courage to keep asking questions that matter.
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Continue the conversation over at our Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/PreparedtoDrown
All right, friends, this one's a little different, for our final episode of Season 1, we're handing the mic over to you, your questions, your curiosities, your reflections on this wild and beautiful and soul-stretching season of Prepared to Drown. We're live tonight, with no edits, no scripts, just three friends and co-conspirators reflecting on what it means to do theology in real time, to talk about God, grief, queerness, grace, and the way it all hits when the microphones are off and real life keeps happening. What have we learned? What surprised us, what still needs to be said and what's next? And maybe most importantly, what kind of expansive, holy, justice-loving faith are we still daring to imagine? Together?
Bill:I'm Bill Weaver and this is Prepared to Drown, and we are here on a gorgeous July evening here in the basement of McDougal United Church, for our latest episode of Prepared to Drown. And we are excited about this one because this is answering listener questions. We have been getting some questions sent in to us from our listeners over the past couple of months and we are here to try to answer them all off. So, to start with tonight, we are going to go inward a little bit before we get into the big ideas and thorny topics that will come after the intermission. The first questions are more personal. They're about joy and grace and dreams and the kind of stuff that lives under the surface for us most days. You ready for this one?
Bill:There's a line in Psalm 42 that says deep calls to deep, and I've always loved the poetry of the Psalms, especially this line, because it reminds me that we don't meet God by climbing into certainty or by getting all the answers right. Sometimes we meet God by going deep into our own lives and in that depth of our own stories we find the depth of God in our midst as well. So I really do believe that the more honest we are with ourselves and about ourselves, the more room we make to encounter something holy. So with that, before we jump into theology and systems and work stuff, we're going to start with some real talk about what brings us joy, what weighs on us and how we are trying to give ourselves a little bit more grace along the way, because people wanted to know about it. So I'll put the first question out there and whoever wants to answer first can answer first on this one. Do you have a bucket list?
Joanne:No, no, no, I think for me, you, like, I sort of think of life as a web, right, and that you take a step and then you have like 10 options in front of you and you take, you know, you choose one of those paths and then another 10 options open up and if you have a bucket list like these are the things I want to do, you really limit what the possibilities are for your life, right, because you always it's like I always say, the difference between me and my husband Dave, is that he is destination oriented, he wants to get someplace, and if something gets in the way of him getting there, he gets frustrated, whereas I'm journey oriented and I'm like oh, this is an interesting twist, let's see where that leads. So no bucket lists. Interesting twist, let's see where that leads. So no bucket lists.
Joanne:When I was young, I had a bucket list. Actually, like I was like eight years old and I was born in the States. So I remember telling my friends well, first I'm going to be the prime minister of Canada and then I'm going to be the president of the United States. Because I could, because I was born there, I had very many lofty goals when I was young and you get to a certain point in your life where you're like, oh, it's too late for that. Oh, no, can't do that anymore, can't do this. So then you get to the point where you're like, I'm just going to open myself to what life has, and in the midst of that is not just your accomplishments, it's also, you know, the failures, the things that hit you that really knock you down. All that happens. So you got to adjust your life. A lot, you know, particularly as you get older and health issues happen. So you know, I just like to grab opportunities as they come. So no, I do not have a bucket list.
Ricardo:I don't know. It seems like every questionnaire and form that I have put in front of me over the past number of years I've said I wanted to be in a 300 pounds, so we'll see if that ever happens.
Joanne:I have clothes that are a bucket list, yeah.
Ricardo:I have a bucket list box of smaller clothes Me too.
Joanne:Maybe I'll wear that again. Who cares if it's?
Ricardo:out of style, yeah.
Joanne:I'm here, I'm there with you.
Ricardo:You're right, like when I was a kid I mean I always wanted to be a bus driver. It was so weird. It was so weird it was, I don't know, I think in the summertime my dad used to take time off and we used to go all over Calgary by the bus and I fell in love with it. So I fell into the job that I'm in pretty pretty I don't know what the word is like just kind of happened. Right, my bucket list would just be you know, I mean, everyone has those goals of like being gazillionaire and being the prime minister, and then everybody wants to go later on when they realize that you know, you only earn so much money per hour and maybe I'll focus on traveling. I guess now it's like let's see if I can keep my NMAX bill under $300 a month.
Joanne:So it's um.
Ricardo:I think it's just, yeah, it just it becomes more realistic and more, more, uh, more pragmatic think in a lot of ways, but my bucket list is still to see the world. I'm born and raised in Calgary and my family's all in Calgary and Calgary will always be home base for me, but there's a giant big world out there to see and I find that's my one main goal in life is to see a world and see other cultures and see other people, Because I actually know a lot of Albertans that have never left the four corners of this province.
Ricardo:Never, Right. I know a lot of people that have never left the four corners of this province and and you know it's like, oh, where have you been? And I was like, well, I've been all over this place, these, these places here, and oh, I've never really been anywhere Edmonton, whatever, whatever. So and I think that feeds into a lot of the like, some of the narratives that they have about the rest of Canada and this province. But, yeah, traveling for sure. You know, I'm fortunate to have a good job now, and so I save a little bit of money every check and I try and go somewhere new every year.
Joanne:So, yeah, I'm guessing the guy who needs to close his rings every day has a bucket list. I have a bucket list, See.
Bill:I think it's a competitive thing too. I'm also young, right. So I hear, when I was young I had one. It's like okay, then I don't feel so bad, because, yes, I do.
Bill:And I mean, like some of them are certainly no secret, like most of the world now knows, because I am that pretentious about it, that I will run a marathon before I'm 50, right, and that has like consumed my life for the past couple of years at least. And yeah, I'm enslaved to my rings and I'm enslaved to the training and the failures and the oh my pace is down and oh, my endurance is up, and you know, like just all that kind of stuff, right, and all the things that go along with it, like in the sort of the messy fitness industry that, uh, like I weigh myself every day and there's I like I'm constantly like checking out like what's the new app, what's the new, you know, and like it. It just it consumes uh so much of so much of time. But but yeah, I mean, like I would say like for me, travel is also a big one because, um, when I was younger I traveled more and I can remember, in simpler times when I had minimal responsibilities and if I wanted to.
Bill:I would just like randomly say you know what, screw it, I'm driving to Ontario and just pack my car and go and sort of the freedom to do that. But also, like I've been through every state except for Alaska and not spent any real time in any of them, but certainly, like you know, purely for the ability to say that I've been through every state, you know we'll take the scenic route to get from point A to point B so that I can pass through. You know C and D in the process.
Bill:And so.
Joanne:I'd like to, I'd like to actually, well, there are a few times where it's like oh sorry, did it happen already? Oh yeah, especially in the States. They're so small yeah no-transcript.
Bill:Less and less like that, you know, with every person.
Joanne:I talk to Freedom, 75.
Bill:Right and and and maybe we actually need to start, you know, like how, how are we going to see Ireland together or Scotland together or Scotland together or any of these places that are actually on our bucket list of places? So I can say that I have traveled North America extensively, but not necessarily with any kind of emotional engagement in any way, and I love 10 years of work projects in Mexico and the whole experience of kind of being. I've never done resort Mexico. I've only done.
Joanne:Oh, I have yeah.
Bill:I've only done.
Joanne:Barcelo.
Bill:I've only done Tijuana Upper Baja working in Orfeo.
Ricardo:When I was a kid, we would drive everywhere.
Joanne:Yes, us too yeah.
Ricardo:You know, like we half of my family's in England, so we'd go once in once every few years to London to see family. But we drive everywhere and as kids we would that Plymouth Voyager with no DVD player and we could have been a horse and buggy and through red hot coals if there was a swimming pool at the hotel at the other end of that trip. Right, yeah, that's right. If there was a pool at that stop at the Super 8 Motel, my parents could take us anywhere. We went to Florida once, I think from Calgary, to Florida.
Ricardo:Yes, yes and that's the thing with the Voyager, yeah, yeah.
Joanne:Yeah, my, our road trips when I was young I'm older than you had eight track tapes.
Bill:So you know, for me still, I remember and I feel so naive about this one, but I wanted to write. I actually wanted to, and I still do. I still think there's at least two or three good books in me. I wanted to be a theological writer. I remember standing up on the night before my ordination and they had asked the people that were going to be ordained the next day oh, what is the thing you are going to do to contribute to the benefit of the church beyond just your ministry? And I stood up there with my microphone. I was like I'm going to write the next great theological book and, oh, I feel like such an idiot now because.
Joanne:I mean— you still got time.
Bill:Well, I had our prof, right, we had a prof that actually came and did the um, the, the, uh, the, the service for my ordination, and, uh, a prof that we both had in seminary, and he said, like here, here, I'm giving you this, uh, like this book, pen, like the whole thing, everything you need so that you can write, I think you'd like, I think you've got it in you kind of thing right, and that book is still in my desk upstairs, unt, untouched, the pen is still in it, it has never even been touched or opened, and like there are days like I hear what you say, though, about the frustration of the obstacles in between, right, because how do you not, 10 years later now, almost look back and go what the hell have I been doing with my life?
Joanne:I think you have three children, and I'm here to tell you that once your children are out of school, they might still live with you in their 30s, but you're not responsible for them.
Bill:The same way that you can open up your life to other things, Sure, there's a dark part of me that I don't let out at parties that says I heard the same thing about once your kids aren't toddlers anymore and then, oh, once your kids aren't like kindergartners anymore.
Joanne:people keep moving the goalposts over and over and over again right, it's when they get to school and you have to drive them around. That's a problem. But I wanted to say, bill, you might not have written a great book, but you are a great liturgist, you write wonderful liturgies and so you are using your theological education that way. And the other thing that was on your bucket list when we were in seminary was tasting beers. How many did you?
Bill:get Different beers In seminary, just in seminary. Yes, well, we were in Atlantic Canada with lots of pubs, I did 500 unique beers from the first day of seminary to the last day of seminary.
Ricardo:I was going to ask about the time frame.
Bill:Yeah, yeah so.
Joanne:Yeah, it wasn't like three weeks. No, no, no, it was a long period of time.
Bill:It works out to a different beer every three days, see, and that's why I think that bucket lists.
Joanne:Really, people who are very competitive have bucket lists right. And, as those who know me well know, you know I'm not a competitive person Like my husband and I. Our first date was playing squash and I said to him do we have to keep score? Can't we just hit the ball around?
Bill:Maybe we could just see how many times? And did he say yes, absolutely there has to be. No, no, he needs to keep score.
Ricardo:Remember destination oriented yes exactly.
Bill:Anyway, we could go all day on this one.
Ricardo:I've always wanted to learn another language too. I mean, I don't have a master's in German studies, but it's always been something to learn another language, Even if you just go to Montreal for a little while and you think to yourself that's such a cool thing to have another language under your belt and do that. There are so many apps now that'll apparently help you learn language in no time, but I couldn't even keep up with MyFitnessPal, let alone do that.
Ricardo:That's right. No, I couldn't, but I mean people. I take inspiration out of my bucket list from others Like Bill, like your, your running journey has been quite inspirational for me, Like I watched it from the beginning when you like started and you quit smoking year marathon.
Bill:Yeah, dropped. I mean, I dropped 70 pounds.
Ricardo:It's now still. Yeah, yeah, there you go.
Bill:It's not that low anymore, but it's getting better.
Ricardo:I think this is like the third year in a row where I've told you that I'm going to run with you at the next Pride marathon and haven't Yep.
Bill:But I think next year might be my year. Well, they've canceled. But here's the thing they the police marathon this year.
Joanne:That'll go over well. Yeah, I think it's an interesting decision.
Bill:Yep, anyhow. The next question that came in again under the personal category. You all have difficult jobs at times. Where do you find joy or happiness?
Ricardo:when you aren't at work? Well, when I have my dogs, of course my dogs, because one of them is like my buddy he's the older one and he's never left my side. It's actually sad now, because he has bad legs and his whole life he's wanted to be beside me, so if I get up to go to the office he follows me. So now, if I get up to go to the office, I have to help pick him up off the floor so he can follow me there. Just take it down again.
Ricardo:I'm like are you figuring outa in a couple of symphony orchestras in Calgary? And music is my big release, because I can keep my phone in my bag far, far away from me while I'm on stage and play with a group of people that I really admire and love, and so music is definitely my escape from the professional world, because it's a completely different world than union organizing and labor relations, right. And so at some point in time, though, I have to start like and that was that last year I had to tell a lot of orchestras, sorry, I can't like, I actually still do have a full-time job that I need to focus on, and so I'm happy with the Calgary Civic Symphony and the Rocky Mountain Symphony Orchestra. I have a great group of people there and we practice every week, so it's been good.
Joanne:Yeah, for me. I mean, I actually don't do this as much as I used to, but something I really enjoy is a truly good meal at a good restaurant, you know, having a leisurely dinner and with really good food. My husband and I are even with some other friends. I like to have a dinner party where it's good conversation. I say one of my favorite things is God talk. But it goes deeper than that. It's not just talk about God or theology, it talks about intentional living. So if I can have a good dinner conversation with people who are thoughtful and intentional about living, that is like the biggest buzz for me. I find a lot of joy there. And plus also, you know, british procedural police procedurals is also my other. I find a lot of joy there too. Seen them all, I think.
Ricardo:But anyways, British police procedurals yes oh.
Joanne:Yes, I love British television as opposed to American television, because the people are more real, yeah, and they always have a kind of a wry sense of humor.
Joanne:You know they're very able to laugh at themselves, as Canadians are too they don't take themselves so seriously, but in every police drama you can bet that there's police corruption Like that's the interesting thing too. We were watching one the other day and I'm like oh yeah, there's going to be some police officer who's in trouble right, as opposed to American things where you know the police are. So so is trouble right, as opposed to American things where you know the police are so so is that.
Ricardo:anyways, I won't go on about that.
Joanne:God talk and police procedurals, that's my joy Good meals and police procedurals.
Bill:Good meals. Don't forget that. More recently for me, like the shift has actually been for me, I'm starting to find joy in cultivating experiences, or maybe even like consuming experiences. So, funnily enough, even last night my wife and I were kind of you know at the end of the day the kids had just gone to bed and she's kind of you know looking through the different emails. She has so many subscriptions to so many just like random things that cross her inbox and and. And she says you know, like we could, we could go on this particular day that we both have free on the calendar right now. We could go on this day and you get a free beer and you make a terrarium for 40 bucks. I was like, hey, let's do it, that sounds awesome, right? And her she's like that's way too expensive.
Joanne:What are you talking about?
Bill:That's perfect. It's like a free beer and we make terrarium. She's like why do you need a terrarium?
Ricardo:What does it matter?
Bill:Let's just go do it. And there's like so many like again. We just for the first time ever, I think, we have season tickets now to Vertigo Theater, like you know like even trying to find, you know like let's go do a couple's painting night, or you know like anything that we can do.
Bill:That is actually just kind of like a one-off, like it's not something that you need to be married to for any length of time, pun intended Except for your wife, yeah, but whether it be together or even just on my own, like something that you can do once without having to commit for all time, like something that you don't need to go out and buy all the gear for right, or, you know, like train or learn a new language or anything for really. So like there's been just a lot of that kind of you know again, like even when we went on vacation last summer through BC, all these places where I was going, like I could come back here for just a day, right, like wouldn't want to stay here for any length of time. Like there's there's one trail here that I haven't walked or one brewery that I'd love to check out.
Bill:Like just something where it's like a like just a hit and then get out, kind of thing, right, so, um, I'm finding that it's harder to settle now um, because there's just all these random things that I want to do once and then you know, just like again, not bucket list even, but just been there, done it and on my way, but it does get pricey.
Joanne:It does get pricey Costs are going up.
Bill:All right, here's one of the tough ones. In church we often speak of grace. Is there something you can share? When somebody told you to give yourself grace, Did you take their advice? Was it difficult, because you're usually the one who says the words give yourself grace?
Joanne:You know, I think for me it's perhaps my kids who do that for me, because I am very hard on myself, like if I've made a mistake or I've hurt someone's feelings, like I really internalize it, it being part of a denomination and of a church where demographics are such that people die, people don't come to church. And I've been at this church for 10 years almost now, and I had been at a previous church where it just kept growing over 10 years, and that has not been my experience here, and so I always think I've done something wrong. It's me, you know, and my kids are the ones who are just like Mom, no, you know, and they're the ones who kind of shake me and say you're doing the right thing, you know. They have all kinds of reasons, like it's just in the wrong place or, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, but they're the ones still who say you are way too hard on yourself and encourage me to be kinder to myself, be kinder to myself, and that's I.
Joanne:Having a kind of adult relationship with adult children is a real gift, you know, because when they're little they're a lot of work, and if this was television you could see Bill's face, and if this was television, you could see Bill's face. And then they're not so much work anymore. Then they're in your life as friends and as sometimes confidants, and as support and encouragement, and you get to carry each other and that's a beautiful thing. So I would say that's where the grace comes. Like I'm hardest on myself at home, they're the ones who see it, and my kids, of course. My husband's always good and I'm saying that because he's sitting with headphones at the back, not just because that, because he's always been a cheerleader for me, which is a great great thing. It's a great great thing. But having my kids, you know, say you're, you're okay, that's. That's been a real um encouragement for me in my life and support for me. So so be nice to your mom, ricardo, your parents.
Bill:I am, I think for me it's been a lot of.
Ricardo:You're not alone in this. It's been a challenging year for me at work, Very challenging. I've been very short staffed. We have a fight with a large, multi-billion dollar grocer right now Safeway. By the way, remember, they rolled back the wages six and a half percent, so we're fighting with them and it's just nonstop and I find myself burning out a lot of the time and burnout when it manifests itself to each individual person. It manifests itself in a different way for each person and for me. I've always been very jovial and happy and so, for the first time, people were telling me what's wrong.
Ricardo:You're not yourself and I don't understand it or feel it because I'm so busy and crazy and that's, I guess, the sign of burnout. And so when I started talking about these things with friends or even my therapist, they're like, yeah, you're showing the signs of burnout and depression. And I said, well, fuck. And so I talk about it with my coworkers, especially my coworker, linda, who's the same level as me but operates out of Edmonton. She's like it's just, it's just what's happening right now. She's like your body's not reacting to it.
Ricardo:But you're not alone, right, like I felt like every the whole, the weight of the entire local was on my shoulders and and I was failing at every juncture and every single day.
Ricardo:Right, and to know that I can rely on people and, um, to be, I guess I always knew that, but you just never want to, right, you never want to be that person that has to ask for help sometimes, and just to know that we're a team. And so I will say my team at work has been a real strength for me, right, and so that, coupled with, like you know, a great friendship group and great family who are here in Calgary, that it's been good. But just reminding that I'm not alone, right? It's okay to ask for help. It's okay to even take a step back and say no, I can't do that, sorry, right? Um, everyone's biggest fear is having to say no. And then we're all surprised when the answer of no is like okay, well, let's figure out a way to do it, rather than you think you're going to get a bat in the head, right, but no it's not like that at all, so yeah that's basically yeah, yeah, I.
Bill:So I I know that if I don't answer this honestly I'm going to get called to task for it, because about a year ago I actually started seeing a psychologist taking some counseling. I was not in a really great headspace overall and there was just again, like it was, a lot of stuff that was still residual, even from the pandemic and from a pretty major like church project loss that happened a couple of years ago and a number of things and things weren't feeling right professionally, personally, kind of all over the map. And I sat for a very long time in front of a computer, days in front of a computer actually, where I had filled out the application form to actually go in and talk to someone, and then I closed it and said no, and then no, I got to do this, I'm not okay. And then fill it out again and then no, can't do it. And then you know, the next day again fill it out again and finally just like click, submit and said like whatever will be will be, and and so much of our conversations.
Bill:When I, when I am in talking to her and she listens to this podcast, so she'll either cheer loudly that I'm doing this or I know what we're going to talk about the next time that I see her. But so much of what we talk about is the fact that not even that I am hard on myself, but that I am so deficit-focused or deficit-based in my focus on myself that I am borderline in an abusive relationship with myself. And so the constant question is like we will talk about scenarios, things what's going on at work, what's going on at home, what's happening in your life? And we're constantly coming back to like you give grace to so many other people, you have expectations for so many other people that are so much kinder than your expectations for yourself, for the stuff you tell yourself, for the things you believe about yourself, and so much of that work is really difficult work to unpack, to struggle with whether or not you were ever enough, or whether, or whether failures are actually failures. Right, that's like that's difficult, difficult stuff to unpack and, interestingly enough, so much of it ties back to, you know, my childhood and messages that I, you know I had understood growing up, about who I was and where my place was in the world.
Bill:And you know I joke a lot about, you know, expecting to disappoint people at a rate that they can handle, in part because, you know, I expect to disappoint people, right, and so much of the work that I've had to work on over the last year, so much of the progress I've made over the last year, has been around finding ways to fail and be okay with it, or to reframe even what I think looks like failure at the beginning in a way that actually at least makes space to recognize that my opinion of myself is likely limited to me and not shared by anyone beyond right, which is similar in some ways to what you talk about too, right. So, in the absence of having adult children, who will tell me?
Bill:to you know my kids still tell me I'm great, but I usually say you're 12. What the hell do you know? But, in the absence, like being able to recognize. Whose voice is it that's actually talking in my head, right? Is it my dad's? If so, probably not. The authority on you know whether or not um.
Bill:I deserve grace, right, um, and, and. So that's been, that's been a really long, hard journey that I'm not done by any stretch of the imagination. Um, uh, it's been. It's been difficult to recognize just how um twisted my ability to give myself permission to be good enough. Um really is Um, and it impacts so many aspects of my life. Um, and it has also impacted so many of my and so many aspects of my life as I try to change those patterns as well, right, and change those behaviors. Um. So, if nothing else, let it never be said that I was not honest on this podcast. Um and uh, and, and like that's not easy to. It's not actually easy to talk about because, like I'm still aware, even like to this day, the reason I kept closing that screen is like, for me, it felt like an admission of failure to ask for help, right, um, yeah, to say I'm not okay felt like, well then, what the hell's wrong with you? Right, because people got it worse than you do, brother, and suck it up, right, yeah.
Joanne:I mean, I think we all tend to do that. It's like there's lots of people who are starving. When I was young, it was there's children starving in Africa.
Joanne:eat your dinner, kind of thing, but it's still your life you know, and when you're in a role of leadership, particularly when you're a spiritual leader of some kind, people don't expect you to be vulnerable and questioning and you know, and the expectation and I think we have that on ourselves is that you're going to show some kind of strength and be the non-anxious presence and all these things that we're trained to do and ultimately we're just human beings.
Bill:Yeah, but I also think there's a piece to it Like I was trying to explain it to somebody a few months ago actually that everybody wants to know that their minister loves them. Right, Right, Everybody wants to know that their minister loves them.
Joanne:Right.
Bill:Right. And yet we also know that the people in our lives that we love are also the people that when something happens to them, it hurts us too, right, when they struggle, we struggle Like. Love is opening yourself up to all of that shared vulnerability and mutual concern for each other, right. And so when you get to that place where, like I will say, I love the people that I care, the people that I serve in all of our churches, and when you open yourself up to that, you have to deal with the same grief, loss, pain, heartache, betrayal, like all of that stuff that plays out in the same way that they do, and the question always tends to at least be on the surface or around the edges of who's taking care of the caregiver, right In the middle of it all. Right, if the expectation is that you're providing this care and support and concern for folks, who's providing that care and support and concern for you? So I mean, my psychologist, at our last thing, said don't you think everybody should be in therapy?
Ricardo:Right, I don't feel bad for therapists, right?
Joanne:Well, there's a whole thing about right now about more people are in therapy than ever before and we're more mentally ill and struggling and there's almost this backlash to it Like actually all this introspection has not been that good for us.
Bill:I'm not sure I agree with that necessarily.
Joanne:I'm just saying I'm not sure I do either, but there's this kind of backlash to therapy Like maybe, anyways, we won't go there.
Bill:But I think it's interesting because, like, there was a time, I remember, when people said, wow, like cases of domestic violence seem to be on the rise, and it's like they're not actually on the rise, people are just able to talk about it. Now, right, and I think that's the same kind of thing when you look at questions around mental health, right, oh for sure, like more men are in therapy now, or more men are, mental health is on the rise because more men are in therapy and blah, blah, blah. Well, no, men are actually now safe to actually go do that without. You know, sorry, language Companies and benefit plans are increasing therapy benefits.
Ricardo:I mean, I think it's Bell that just makes it unlimited now and my employer gives us like $5,000 a year now for towards a therapist. Just because they understand the nexus between, like, what we do for work, the constant struggle, and you know, the work that you do as spiritual leaders and what I do as a union leader is not that much different in that we're helping people in their most vulnerable, painful times.
Joanne:Right, yes.
Ricardo:For me, it's like you know job loss is the worst thing that could happen to someone after 30 years at a grocery store, right? And so I have to sit there and help them through it, with very little to give them, but with very real stakes. Exactly yeah, exactly Right. And so just saying yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, all the time, and saying, yes, I'll help you, yes, I'll help you, with no real plan in the moment and just doing your best with how you've been trained wears down on someone completely, and so, like, all of this needs to be given to somebody, and so my therapist often tells me that she sees a therapist too.
Joanne:Yeah.
Ricardo:That person's called my grand therapist, apparently.
Joanne:Yeah, there you go.
Ricardo:So it's a circle of life.
Joanne:Yeah, right, yeah.
Ricardo:But you're right, bill, it's like people are able to talk about it. More life, yeah, right, yeah. But you're right, bill, it's like people are able to talk about it. More Men, men's mental health is, I see. I see movements and pictures and videos all the time about like two perfectly straight men that cuddle on a couch and show each other affection. Because it's just, it should be a natural thing.
Joanne:Well, those cuddle parties, right? Yeah, they used to have those before COVID, I think.
Ricardo:I think the systematic dismantling of toxic masculinity and those gender norms and stereotypes has gone a long way to get men to open up. I think everyone to open up and be more vulnerable and be more real with how they're feeling. Like when you were kids, even as a female too, they would stop crying, right, don't cry. And so we should encourage children to cry and grownups to cry.
Joanne:Oh yeah, absolutely Right. So, yep, that's, absolutely true.
Bill:I'm going to shift into the professional now and then we'll break and we'll get a couple of them out of the way and then we'll move into the intermission and then come back to finish it up. I was thinking a bit about because we're talking about ministry and union organizing and showing up in public ways that aren't always easy, whether it's church life or union life, community life. All of us have jobs that ask a lot of us and sometimes they pull us in directions we didn't expect. So there's a verse in Micah that grounds so much at least of what I try to do. My grand aspiration, if there was to be a scripture attached to it, is what does the Lord require of you? Right, seek justice, love, kindness and walk humbly with God right.
Bill:And it sounds beautiful and I will probably, at some point in time, end up tattooing it on myself as a testament to my failure, but anyone who's tried to live it knows that it's also really quite messy. It doesn't matter what you do in life. It takes guts and humility, and sometimes it means navigating systems that weren't built for justice or mercy in the first place.
Bill:Especially your work, ricardo let's be honest right the first place, especially your work, Ricardo, let's be honest, right. So I wanted to kind of duck into a couple of these questions that are intersectional in some ways, because they also emerged, I think, out of specific episodes that we've done this year. And the first one is actually a really fascinating one because, Joanne, you weren't actually here for this episode last month, but one of the questions that emerged from it we may not have actually answered in our time last month and I'm not sure if we'll be able to answer it tonight, but in the spirit of honoring the question, let's give it a go anyway. What would a non-binary God look like.
Joanne:Well, first of all, god is non-binary, right, like there's no. God is queer, yes, like in my mind, completely right, because all the iterations of humanity are contained in God, right? Yep, I mean we would believe that, like, if God is the creative force behind it, then every kind of human being God has had within God's self. So the queerest of all, yeah, so here's the thing about God to me is a queer God is not a God who erases your sexuality or your gender or your human expression or anything like that, but celebrates it with you. So the queer God delights in every aspect of humanity and every way we struggle and every way we overcome, every way we express ourselves, all the love that we give and the ways that we give it. God delights in that and that you know.
Joanne:If you want to say a non-binary God or a queer God, that is how God relates to humanity to me, relates to humanity to me. There can't be in a God who has created this beautiful plethora of human experience and expression, there can't be favorites, there can't be. This is the best expression of humanity, right? Also, this queer God grieves at boundaries that separate us, at us trying to fit ourselves into boxes because we want to be acceptable, of finding different ways to believe. We're not good enough. This God grieves the expressions of humanity that actually make us smaller, not bigger, that diminish love instead of expanding love. So I like to say that God's love is promiscuous, meaning that it's overflowing, it goes everywhere and it doesn't in any way, you know, discriminate. So that's what I would have said if I was here last month.
Ricardo:God is most definitely Aslan off of Chronicles of Narnia. Okay, no, god is.
Joanne:Deep magic. Deep magic.
Ricardo:I think every time we see good in humanity and good things happen, that's where God is Right. Um, it's funny. Um, somebody was. I was at the gas station just down the street, the shell, and there was a um, a less fortunate person I don't want to say they were unhoused was less fortunate person picking through the garbage can and getting the bottles right and I had like eight or five, seven or eight bottles in the back of my truck. So I said I picked them all out and I said here you go, have them. He's like oh, thank you so much. And somebody's like why are you giving that to them? Like a complete stranger comes to me eight bottles at 10 cents each. You're worried about my 80 cents. And I'm thinking to myself. The first thing I said like why do you care?
Joanne:Yeah.
Ricardo:And so he says well, what do you know what he was going to do with that money? I was like I don't care, I don't even care what you're doing with your money. Exactly, I'm pretty sure the going rate for any drug is not 80 cents, right.
Joanne:You can't even get a chocolate bar for 80 cents.
Ricardo:Exactly. And I think to myself like that's not God, right? Right, the people that give of themselves and the good things that happen in the world, right, that's God. And when people go that extra mile and do something out of their comfort zone or just doing good, is the most natural human thing that I can see people doing. And seeing the effort that people have to put in to be awful to one another, the effort that's being put in being awful to one another south of the border, the effort that's being put in right here in Alberta, with town halls over separating and, and you know, restricting books and all that kind of stuff that's happening, and that the effort that gets put in is not where God is. Because you can see and feel, um, the I don't even want to say evil, but you can see and feel that it's not. It's not what. What even those people would have been taught in church, right, I mean, what even those people would have been taught in church, right, I mean, unless they went to Westboro Baptist Church. That's a different thing.
Ricardo:But so, yeah, that's what I feel God is like. I don't, I don't ever picture God as like even a human form. That's why I said Aslan in the beginning. I just think that God is an entity, that that just travels through us and within us and surrounds us, and when we do good and when we do the easy thing, which is just being kind and loving one another, that's where God is.
Joanne:Expanding love.
Ricardo:That's what God is right. Yeah, that's the. It's the energy that flows through us when we're, when we're doing good and we're feeling good, right.
Bill:Yeah, I mean you say Aslan, I would say, like on the Simpsons, God was the only five fingered character ever. But uh, um, I mean, for me, the challenge, the great challenge, um, in all of it has always been that, uh, um. Not that I'm trying to be argumentative at all, um, but um, you know, even even in the midst of the the, the misery and the hatred and the anger and the violence and just the shameful inhuman treatment happening south of the border and honestly, we don't even need to look south of the border it's happening up here too. Right, god is there. Right, it may not be of God, but even in that, god is there, right.
Bill:So it's this whole kind of messy idea that, whether you be the purest heart in the world or an orange-tinned American president or anything in between, you're held in God's grace regardless. Right, it doesn't mean that the trash you spout is godly or divine in any way, but you yourself are still a beloved child of God, right, and it's this idea that you know you hate that trans kid. Well, spoiler alert, god loves that trans kid and loves you even in your hatred, and wants better for you than this, right, and for me, every time I land in that space. That is the most challenging part of it all for me, right? Is you know, like the commandment to love your enemy is challenging, like really challenging, but to recognize that even God loves your enemy.
Joanne:But that's not a love, that is without, not condition, but without accountability.
Bill:Yes, right, yes.
Joanne:So you can and I agree. So if God is in everything, which I totally agree with that, is God grieving in that moment with you? Is God angry at that moment with you? Is God loving and joyful in that moment with you? Yeah, and to say you know God, we are all the beloved of God. I believe that too. I mean, I completely believe that. But that doesn't dismiss any of us from accountability for our actions towards other people.
Bill:Absolutely right. No, absolutely right.
Joanne:Before God either, right, god's not like. Oh you hate that trans kid, I love you, it doesn't matter.
Bill:Like we say, yeah, it's not, the kingdom is yours.
Joanne:We can say unconditional love, and there is unconditional love, but there is not lack of accountability in how we harm other people.
Bill:Yeah, I would say that we have sanitized love a bit in our society to be almost this permissive kind of sense of almost enabling. Right and realistically, that is actually that's kind of a concupiscence that happens as the result of mortality. Right and realistically, that is actually that's kind of a concupiscence that happens as the result of mortality. Right, we bend the virtuous towards less virtuous kind of expressions. Love can be like love or it can be obsession. It can be enabling great harm.
Bill:Some of the stories you would even hear out of 12-step programs right Around, like why didn't you intercede and get your loved? Well, because I loved him so much. I didn't want to, you know, destroy that relationship or cause them further harm or make them feel bad about themselves. But like, at some point in time your love needs to be enough to. You know, like get in the ring and put on some gloves and, you know, fight a couple of rounds, kind of love, right, and so, by all means, like, if we could get back to like a gritty, you know, at least quasi sharp-toothed love like that would probably be a good thing for all of us, right? A love that isn't conditional but does put a call on us at the same time.
Joanne:Yes, it calls to our better selves, right? Yeah?
Ricardo:And back to the original question about God being binary or non-binary. I think that a non-binary God would fight for breaking down the patriarchy or the male-dominated tone of most organized Christian religions. Right, like I saw Pope, the new Pope, leo Leo, he said no way to women priests. Right, he said Jesus hung out with 12 men and so he's going to be men only. It's like me. From an economic standpoint, I'm like there isn't exactly a huge lineup of people going to the priesthood right Well not only then that the first disciples were supported by rich women.
Ricardo:Exactly right.
Joanne:Christianity became the dominant religion. It is because of women converts to Christianity, who raised their children as Christians. So that's all. And there were way more than 12 people around Jesus. Anyway, I won't get into that now, sorry, ricardo.
Ricardo:But I was also just saying, like you know, I love the United Church for the fact that there are so many women in ministry, so many people in the queer community in ministry, but there are still so many, even like Protestant and evangelical denominations. We're still so heavily male dominated and the mothers with sometimes like 12 children are to be at home and doing their thing, right, and it's just so, I think, breaking down those barriers. I would love to see a situation where women are dominating in the church and in a lot of Christian circles, to prove a non-binary God and to prove a God that there is no show of force or there is no proof that the show of force comes from the man's mouth. Right, it's just. It needs to be more in that sense.
Bill:Parenthetically. Going back to the bucket list question, I too would like to be supported by rich women.
Joanne:I used to always say I would like to be dependently wealthy. I used to always say I would like to be dependently wealthy.
Bill:So there was a question that was asked that I'm going to tag an additional question onto, probably because I disagree with the answer to the question. But anyhow, the question was why does church have to be comfortable? To which I'm going to add does church have to be comfortable? To which I'm going to add does church have to be comfortable? But I think there is some value in talking about comfort or levels of comfortability in the church, because I don't think any of us aspires to really make church an uncomfortable place, really make church an uncomfortable place. But certainly I would observe that, yeah, there does seem to be at least some tension or some pressure around the. I come here to feel good, I come here to be entertained, I come here to—.
Joanne:Have tea with my friends.
Bill:Well and be validated that my viewpoint is good enough, right, and certainly we always hold that intention with all of the prophetic tradition and the nature of our world, and so if we can talk a bit about church and comfortable and sort of what it is that we think, but maybe let's let Ricardo go first because I know you and I could lean heavily into this, and Ricardo has some experience in a couple of traditions.
Ricardo:Actually, Well, that's what I'll reflect on in my answer, in the saying that I don't think church has to be comfortable. I think church has to be welcoming. But I think a lot of people love the routine of church. And you know, growing up in the Catholic tradition it was always we went on church at five o'clock mass every Saturday and went for dinner afterwards. And my parents still go to church every day if they can and you know they'll go for this celebration and that celebration. It's just so routine, like they know what to expect when they go for it. So mom's like, oh, I'm going to go for Easter Vigil Mass this year. She knows exactly what to expect.
Ricardo:So I think a change in routine would really that's uncomfortable enough for a lot of people, right, a change in like preaching, a change in the tone and the flavor of services is really an uncomfortable thing. And then we dip into churches like ours that talk about very heavy, heavy topics, very heavy, heavy, relevant social topics, which make a lot of people uncomfortable. What I love about this church is that everybody who doesn't like feeling comfortable around those topics just sits there and smiles through it. There's never a, there's never some revolution of people just getting up and walking out that I've seen yet.
Ricardo:Right so.
Joanne:Happens in the parking lot.
Ricardo:I guess. But but that's what I think I think a break in routine for people, because a lot of that's the part about church that I think a lot of people in the new generation just don't want to do anymore, right, like they don't want to have to, like put their Sunday best on and go to church on Sunday. They want a church that's fluid and happens on Tuesday afternoon or does different things throughout the community, and I think that's the uncomfortable part of a lot of of Christian uh uh, church goers and um, yeah, I think I think we're doing the right thing here, right, even though I don't come here on Sundays very often.
Ricardo:You're one of those young people, yeah one of those C and E Christian Church Christmas and Easter. Christmas and Easter yeah, it doesn't matter. One of those C and E? Christian yeah, that's right. Church Christmas and Easter.
Joanne:Christmas and Easter. Yeah, it doesn't matter. I always say you're always welcome. We don't take attendance.
Ricardo:We used to. When I first came to McDougal, we had the folders. Yeah, no, I know.
Joanne:I know. And then I asked what do we do with this information? And I was told nothing. And I'm like then let's collect it. Why do we? Yeah, anyway, I think we have to make a big distinction between the church writ large and our community, right.
Joanne:So, like Bonhoeffer is the one who said, the church is only the church when it is for others, right. And so there's this great line I'm sure we've all heard it before that the church is meant to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable right. So I think that if the church writ large, in other words, like our denomination or other Christians, aren't in the business of trying to redeem the world, they've lost the plot, right. And whether redeeming the world is through deeper relationships in the church or with our families, multiplying love, expanding the table I love the everyone has a place at the table idea If we're not doing that, then we've lost the plot. We're not the church anymore. We're, you know, a community organization, which there's nothing wrong with those either. You know, church is that there's also a difference between the church and what their purpose is, and spiritual practice. I think attending church is sometimes a spiritual practice, in other words, it's something that you do in order to give yourself strength to take on the bigger challenges of life, right? So I don't think that church necessarily has to be. You know, every week you go away.
Joanne:I remember there was a minister and I would say to them they probably say this about me too, because I tend to go on justice issues a lot but they go like why do you make me feel so guilty all the time? You make me feel so guilty and he goes. It's, you know, it's not me saying this. This is the gospel, right? This is the gospel of Jesus Christ. I think it's important to keep those redeem the world before us. When you're out in the world and someone says how come you're giving this? Do you know where it's spent? That you can respond and say I don't Giving human dignity to someone. I'm the same way. I don't care what they spend it on, it's their choice. I'm not gonna be paternalistic about other people or look down on them, but church is also spiritual practice, in other words.
Joanne:So you come, you sing, you pray, you commune with each other, you find strength and hopefully in the world, as part of the church writ large, as part of the church writ large, you make a difference in your life somehow. So I think, as leaders in the church, it's our job to provide a place where people belong, right. Number one you belong here. It's very hard to feel like you belong somewhere if you are constantly being told you're not enough right or that we need to be better at this or we need to do that. So having a church that's comfortable, where people belong, is really, really important. Building community is really important. The community of Christ, supporting each other, caring each other all these things are comfortable, but we also have to know that it's our job as the church to be the body of Christ, the hands and feet of Christ in the world, and there is a part of our lives and our community that needs to take on oppression and the issues of our day right the issues of our day.
Joanne:You know, becoming an affirming ministry here was not always easy. Like it wasn't easy, right? There's people who left the church when we became affirming people that have questions you know, like why—I remember one question was why do the gay people have to hold hands in church? I never—I don't do that and I'm like, but nobody would look askance at you if you did, do you know? So there would be these questions that people would have, which are honest questions that you have to talk about.
Joanne:So I don't think we should hide from difficult topics. I really believe that the church is the place where you can discuss anything and should discuss all the experience that humanity has, should be able to come into the church and have a conversation and a God perspective on it. But it's also I think we have to remember this is a spiritual practice for people to come to church on Sunday and if they don't feel comfortable. Cs Lewis said church should feel like an old shoe, like there should be a comfort to it where people are able to say in their life you know what? I know? God loves me, and so now I'm going to figure out how to love you more deeply too.
Bill:CS Lewis never trained for a marathon. Old shoe is the worst thing you can wear, okay, but yeah, I mean like my constant struggle always that keeps me up. Sometimes, depending on what the scriptures are, what the theme is for any given Sunday is always finding that place in the middle of. People need to be able to find themselves in the gospel, right, it needs to include them or it has nothing to do with them. And my belief is always, like these are stories and understandings of God and God's church, that everybody does have a place at the table, right. So I always try to make sure that people understand like.
Bill:This story is for you, whether you're on top of the world and you are successful and you know you're six figures a year and life is great and you don't have a care in the world. It's also for you if, like you are struggling to put food on the table or you just got that brand new diagnosis that you were not expecting um or um, you know, like you, you just lost this beloved family member. Like, like, whatever your story, wherever you are, um, um, like this, this is your story, right, and this is, this is a part of like you are a part of this family, and a part of this narrative, and and and this gospel is, is for you as well. Right, um, so, like, um, the. The struggle is always yes, like, like. This is for you if you are grieving, um, this is for you if you are living in poverty.
Bill:Part of the work, though, is to stop being okay with people living in poverty. Right, six figures, not a care in the world. Sitting, you know, two pews back or two chairs back from the person who you know has burnt out all their uses at the food bank and is wondering where food is going to come from. The message should land differently, and it really needs to like. It needs to land differently, and it's not about guilt, but, like in a lot of cases, guilt really is kind of the huh like. I'm feeling this for reasons that I know about my life.
Joanne:Right, it's the accountability thing.
Bill:It's not meant to be a shaming thing, and that's part of the struggle, right, is that discomfort is also the only way we move. The only way we change our behavior is if it's uncomfortable, and so the constant tension is always how do you move hearts graciously right, without leaving anyone behind or having anyone feel like this is no longer home for them? Right, and that is not easy work to do, but I know, do I be. I'm going to say it leverage their attendance or their participation in the community to stamp out their discomfort. Right, if we're going to go down this road, like you said, right, when McDougall was working to become an affirming ministry, some people said, like, if this is the road we're going down, we're leaving. Right on down, we're leaving right, and that kind of practice to me, has always been the most enraging practice out of all of them.
Bill:Right, I fully expect dissenting voices, I fully expect a diversity of opinions. I fully expect that not everyone has to agree all the time, right? But when your answer is this community that I have been a part of for decades, that I've sat with these people and greeted these people and celebrated marriages and baptisms and birthdays and the highs and lows of life together and suddenly, over this, I am cutting and running. There is something really broken in that. Not that you're broken, broken in that, not that you're broken, you're human. But that behavior is broken and is not again, is not of God, right?
Bill:So the challenge for me always ends up being the discomfort is going to come. Church will never, always be comfortable, and I remember hearing on the very first day of seminary in my very first class, like when you get there, don't change anything in a year because it'll make people uncomfortable, right. And I was going, like the place that I went to, the person there before me was a woman who had been there for 19 years, was old enough to be my grandmother, right, had just like the list of things that were different to begin with. It was like I've already failed. Like tell me not to change anything for a year. I don't wear skirts, I don't wear high heels, I don't right you should have.
Ricardo:That would have been interesting. I highly recommend it. Skirts are Well. Thank you.
Bill:I might try it out because my legs look better now than they did two years ago, but certainly like somebody came in on the very first day even and said you might as well quit now, you'll never be her, um, and it was just kind of this whole like man, like how do you not change anything? How do you not ever make anyone uncomfortable when um like that's, that's just kind of the, the nature of like transition in general, right, and for a gospel that is constantly moving and calling us to new understanding as our times change and as the issues of our day change, how can you not constantly have to reevaluate and kind of go like I'm here but I need to get to over here, and that requires me to actually let go of some things or take on some things or adapt to some things in a way that are intended to expand God's love and be more life-giving than the way things currently are right.
Joanne:I think what is really interesting like if we take the whole affirming thing, there were people who said you know, I'm not comfortable with this, I'm going to go someplace else. I think we have to be okay with that because we can't have a church that tries to keep everybody right. I mean, I went to a church before and they would say how can? We don't sing old hymns. And the minister would say you know, there's a church down the street that sings a lot of old hymns. I think you might like it there better. And I think you got to be able to say that.
Joanne:But what has been the joy of the affirming process which was probably what are we seven or eight years into being affirming is not the people who left. I don't mourn the people who left. I know that there are people in the community who wish they were still here. What has been the great joy is to see the people in the congregation who have learned so much about themselves, about their families, like the number of people in the church who have learned so much about themselves, about their families, like the number of people in the church who have gay kids or they have trans grandkids and all of a sudden they felt like it was okay that they could come out of the closet too. That was a real gift.
Joanne:It was a real gift to have people embrace this we're an affirming ministry and have it as a point of pride instead of wondering about if we were doing the right thing. So sometimes in these very difficult things, when you're in church and you're wondering is this the right way to go, should this happen, and you expend a lot of political capital as leaders, sometimes by going into these difficult places, eight years down the road you know it was the right thing and it becomes a part of the community that has enriched it and made it a place where everyone belongs or at least we have that before us as what we have said. We want to be. So you know it's okay if people want to, like Protestants, break up all the time. Protest is right in there.
Bill:Splinter groups everywhere, yep, yep.
Joanne:So people can go, it's true, and I don't think we should lose community with people because they decide they're not coming on Sunday morning anymore. A lot of the people who left the church still have really good friends here, yep, and I think that's a great thing.
Bill:It goes back to that. A lot of people who left the church are still really plugged into everything that's happening. Right, they may not be here physically on a Sunday morning. But they are just as connected.
Joanne:Right. Well, you know, when you get the letter from someone who's been in the church for 50 years and it's like a whole letter of I can't believe we're doing this, this is so not the gospel and all that kind of stuff, and you're a minister who's been here two years and you're like, oh my God, what have I done to this community? It's going to be ripped apart and it's going to fail and it's going to you know, all that stuff that I do where my kids have to say, mom, you're doing the right thing. You know, when we say God's time, is it a different rhythm? You start to understand that when you've been with a community for 10 years it's a different rhythm and we have to. If what we're doing is multiplying love in the world, we have to believe and persist on that path, because living a diminished love or one that is bounded by, you know, convention and stuff, will not get us to a place of true joy.
Bill:Feels like a good place to stop and refill our drinks and refill our refreshments and snacks, and we will return after a brief intermission to carry on with the rest of our questions. And we're back after the intermission. We're going to jump right back into the questions. We've got two more on the professional category and then we're going to jump into the last section of the day, First one being what's one thing that you wish you had explored more before you either went into ministry or union organizing?
Ricardo:I have a real love for cars. Like my fondest memory every year is going to the Calgary International Auto and Truck Show with my dad and I would sit in every vehicle, pick up every brochure and God love that man. He's got the patience of a saint, because from a little kid until today, and even with my ex-partner, I would be like we have to go to the auto show. We have to go to the auto show and Alex couldn't have cared about that. I don't know, but he did it anyway. And Alex couldn't have cared about that, I don't know, but he did it anyway. So at one point in time, when I was in grade 12 or just graduated from high school, I applied for mechanics at not at State, I actually applied in Saskatoon for some weird reason and I got in and I thought, oh, this is my chance, I can fix. And I always wanted to be a mechanic and, like whatever I did for my full-time career, I always wanted to be able to fix my own cars. And I didn't do that.
Joanne:I was going to say how'd that work out for you?
Ricardo:I didn't do that I can still. I can do the basics. I can, you know, change the oil, change the tire. But if you ask me to change the brake pads and all that stuff, I can't. But I still have an affinity for cars and I still love cars and I think maybe my calling might've been like or marketing. Maybe I'd have been a good used car salesman.
Ricardo:I don't know, where my automobile passion lay. But no, at one point in time I wanted to do, and a bunch of my uncles are mechanics, they own shops and so I think I just grew up in that culture. But that's one regret that I didn't do before.
Joanne:I took the job that I did now yeah. So obviously no wrong answers, but to clarify something about our which we wish we'd explored, I think that is more of the question.
Bill:Or something that you wish you knew more about when you entered into the field. Oh, sorry, I'll answer. Totally fine, because the next question is actually Okay, so you can cut that out.
Ricardo:I'm not going to cut that out.
Joanne:That's not how this works.
Ricardo:Yeah there are no wrong answers, but.
Joanne:I just wanted to be clear.
Ricardo:Okay, sorry what I knew, what I wanted to learn about my job before I did it.
Ricardo:So what's one thing you wish you had explored more before you went into, yeah, what the actual consequences of 40 years of conservative rule in Alberta meant for unions.
Ricardo:For me, when I joined social justice work and you know, I was going to university for social work to do, to be a social worker and when I was exploring my life as a union activist, I didn't realize how much law was centered around the rights of workers to earn a living and to, and, and how much of that law actually worked against workers right, and how much of it, um, like we lose.
Ricardo:Uh, how much governments will pivot to ensure that some people are just kept poor. Uh, and it's completely up to the government in power that will make the laws on how your work life is. And you can just see it in Canada, where we have I mean aside from the US, but in Canada, where we have a decentralized form of labor relations, just in the province next door in British Columbia. The rights that workers have in British Columbia, the rights that workers now have in Manitoba, the rights that we had under just four years of NDP rule, which were rolled back in the first session of legislature by Jason Kenney, shows you how political this job is and how. I wanted to just be in the trenches, organize workers, stand up for the revolution and big strike and this and that, but it's not actually. They make it really hard to do that kind of stuff that you see ideologically and in power, so yeah.
Joanne:It's really interesting. I was in a conversation with someone once and they were talking about someone in their family who worked at a pool, but it was, you know, not a public pool, it was the private pool, so the wages were a lot worse. And he was talking about the company. You know, they don't have to pay as much. And I I just said, is that a good thing or a bad thing?
Ricardo:Like it was hard to know and he goes he goes.
Joanne:I guess it depends on if you're the company or the employee, and that's, that's actually the reality.
Ricardo:Who are you? The employee or the company?
Joanne:Yeah, like is it a good thing or a bad thing? Yeah, I mean, I worked in a church before I became a minister, but I came out of the evangelical tradition where the ministers could do anything. You know essentially what they wanted. It could be accomplished if they chose to. Most of the ministers we had when I was young were not that kind, but ministers are certainly much more on a pedestal than they are in the United Church.
Joanne:And then I started working at a church and I remember thinking the minister there, he would go into a meeting and he would say, let's say it was music, it was a music meeting, it was nothing, not the board or anything. And he'd go well, I mean, you can do whatever you want. And I used to say to him don't give your power away. No, you don't want them to do whatever you want. There's a vision, a dream. We got to stick to that kind of thing. And he would say we have influence but not power as United Church ministers. Influence but not power. And I wish I could have understood that better before I became like a minister, because if you confuse your role you get resistance.
Joanne:And a church is owned by its congregation members. You know, owned is probably the wrong word, but they'll be here when I'm gone and they were here before I was here. And you're a leader and you have influence, but you don't have power to make decisions about things, and that's been the area, I think, in my ministry that's been the most difficult to navigate. Is like you have dreams and visions and I always say this church is a yes church, not a no church. So I have not, in the 10 years I've been here, encountered a lot of no. We can't do that. There's questions and if it seems valid, they'll say yes to it. But you got to enroll people in the vision. You can't just decide this is where we're going and everybody's just going to say, yeah, that's a good idea, right?
Ricardo:So understanding what it means to have influence but not power is probably I think our power in both of our professions come from the people that we serve.
Joanne:Right.
Ricardo:And that our influence turns into power through those people.
Ricardo:My work would not be here without my members, right, my influence would not be influential without my members, right, my influence would not be influential without my members. And, while you know, local 401 has 33,000 members across Alberta and maybe a small fraction or percentage of them are active members. Stomping their hands in the workplace to be able to rally your coworkers, the same way you rally your congregants around a cause or a vision, is where your influence becomes power as leaders, right? And so I think we often forget all three of us around this table that our leaders we don't. We are leaders and we are mentors, and that we have to.
Ricardo:We're not going to change the world, right, we're not. The world is way more complicated and screwed up than we might think, but we'll move minds and we'll build relationships and we'll move people and we'll get people to support us. And, whether it's a congregation or whether it's a workplace, if you have those people supporting you as a leader, then you can make a lot of movement and change, and that goes for both of our professions, right? I definitely don't forget that both of our professions right?
Bill:I definitely don't forget that. Interesting, because my initial response, and still my response to this question in particular, is, honestly, furnace maintenance and sort of that kind of stuff. I wish I knew more. So many of my ministry contacts even, like some folks will know, some folks won't know, some folks won't know on the airwaves obviously, I was at MacDougall for a time before I left to go to seminary and go be minister at Ogden and then, through the partnership and everything that we have, now I'm at both Ogden we're all at Ogden and MacDougall, and Red Deer Lake United Church as well and so I've just kind of come back in the last few years.
Bill:But in virtually every ministry context up until this most recent stint here at McDougall and even that would be questionable there's always been some kind of a requirement. The sheer number of times I had to repair the furnaces at Ogden. On a Sunday morning you walk in it's minus 20 in the sanctuary and you don't want to pour water in the baptism font because you're pretty sure it's going to freeze before you got to put it on the kid and you're down in the basement of the church trying to get this furnace that's older than Jesus to actually like fire up again right and so many like I can remember being out on the front sidewalk of Ogden one day when it was 25 degrees out and I was in. I think I just finished a funeral collar and the whole nine yards pouring concrete and repairing a sidewalk that had cracked to the point that it was a tripping hazard and people were hurting themselves on it.
Bill:Or you know, when everyone got together and said, hey, we're going to rebuild the accessibility ramp and all right, sure, I'll be there and help out, and it's like what the hell do I know about? You know, building a ramp that isn't just going to collapse under the weight of you know, it has to support somebody in an electric wheelchair, right, that's right and just all these sort of like. All of this stuff was the stuff that there used to be language in sort of job descriptions for ministry in the United Church that I think we've aspirationally stamped out, but maybe not Other duties as required.
Joanne:I say that is your job description. Other duties as required.
Bill:And I mean certainly that has been my lived experience. I think the entirety of my ministry is the oh wait, I mean, let's be honest, I'm helping with a musical theater camp starting on Monday, when neither music nor theater is what I do, right? So there's just a lot of this like, wow, ministry really is the stuff you do after you've made your plans, right. Do you know what's?
Joanne:really interesting, though, is that and maybe it's because I'm a woman I've never had to fix a furnace, I've never poured concrete, I've never built a ramp, I've never done any of that stuff. But one of the differences between you and I is like every church that I served, except for Oyen, right where I did my internship rural.
Joanne:Alberta was a large multi-staff church so they had lots of committees. They hired people to do things. So that was always my expectation of church. When I went to Oyen they didn't have an admin assistant, so you did all your own kind of admin stuff. Fine, I don't mind doing that, I can do that. I've been an admin assistant.
Joanne:The minister there, helen was her name love her dearly. She'd be out there shoveling the walk and putting the, you know. And they had someone who was a volunteer who cleaned the church, but not as often probably as it needed to be. And I remember saying one day she said, no, you just have to do this stuff when you're the minister. And I said, look, the day they have me clean the toilets, I am out of here. It was just like that was where I drew the line. But understanding the difference between being a single minister at a smaller church and being part of a multi-staff church A single minister at a smaller church and being part of a multi-staff church, it's a really different thing. But also, you know, like I don't know if anyone would ever expect me—I couldn't fix a furnace. Let's be honest, bill, I could not do it.
Bill:Neither could I right. I mean, I could probably now, but again like it would depend. I can now fix old-timey furnaces probably now, but again like it would depend. I can now fix old timey furnaces like. I now know that there was a time when we built furnaces to last and they had nine parts and they, like they run long after. Everybody that built them is dead, right, um, but we've moved into a world now where everything is like compartmental and modular and, you know, disposable. So you like they've got 50 parts now in a furnace and this one can break and your only option is to buy a new one and replace it. Right, and they're component parts. Now, altogether, I can't fix those, but if we're talking one of those old-timey built-like-a-brick-you-know-what house and nine parts, yeah, I could probably bang it back into working order.
Joanne:See, here's a true.
Bill:For Jesus. For Jesus, you could do anything for Jesus.
Joanne:Here's where my feminism breaks down, because if I was in a church like that and a furnace needed fixing, I'd call my Dave and he would do it. And my husband, over the 25 years I've been working in churches, has been voluntold a lot in my life and I am forever grateful for him. He would shovel the walk. He would do all those things and has. The amount of labor he's put into congregations that I've served is phenomenal. So there's, like I said, where my feminism breaks down just because he's so good at it.
Bill:At that same dinner that I said I was going to write, I also said that there's a special place in heaven for clergy spouses. Yes, for sure, and that is definitely the case. All right, so part B of the question. Ricardo already kind of foreshadowed it what would you do if you weren't doing this?
Joanne:So yeah, you know, when I was young I was a little bit I remember telling my mom I want to be a movie star and a singer right, and she told me I was probably eight years old. Like who wouldn't say that at eight? She said I would rather I can't even remember what she said you be something like a grocer than be in that business.
Ricardo:Nothing wrong with grocery, no.
Joanne:Unless you're working for Safeway Anyway so I mean, I I'm doing that musical theater camp too. But I do do music and theater and and have always been a singer and you know I've had music teachers tell me that I should be a professional musician. People have always, you know, enjoyed my singing and but I always that what my mom saying that has always made me think that was never an option for me. That you know she kind of instilled in me that my voice was for God and no one else, no one else. And so I actually wish there was one time I was in Toronto where I decided, yeah, I'm going to try and be a singer.
Joanne:I was like in my twenties and I went and and found an agent actually, and then he went out of business like the next week and I never went any further with that. But I wish I had explored the possibility of, you know, singing as a profession when I was much younger. Love, love music. And of course I was a lawyer and lots of times I sit there and think like why didn't I just stick with that? Why didn't I stick with that?
Ricardo:I'd have my mortgage paid off now, but anyway, I will say earlier in the episode, like today I said I wanted to be a bus driver at one point in time. So every year I look at my pension statement and see how much closer I am to retirement.
Joanne:Yeah.
Ricardo:And then I say I'm just going to quit what I'm doing now and just drive a bus. Drive a bus, and Lord knows I'm not diminishing bus drivers' work, because right now they probably work harder.
Joanne:I was going to say, do you?
Ricardo:think and are abused more than any time.
Joanne:The bus driver is easy yeah.
Ricardo:No, I don't think that at all, but I just something. I like something more repetitive Right In that sense right, yeah, something less yeah.
Joanne:Less hectic.
Ricardo:Hectic is a good word. Yes, exactly, I didn't say taxing, but hectic.
Bill:I actually have two answers to this one that I couldn't distinguish between the two. Actually they both carry equal weight, I guess. For me, the first one, honestly I never get to do it enough. But there is something I truly love, even in my amateur status, about carpentry and building things and yeah, I mean you can't see it if you're listening on the radio, but Ricardo just tapped the tables actually that we are sitting at for our podcast because, yeah, I built these right With help, we had volunteer help with it.
Bill:But certainly, like the construction of things and building of things and has always been, I've always kind of thought like if I actually learned how to do this well, it would be.
Bill:There's something for me really life-giving and really kind of just like it feels good when you complete something of medium or format right To achieve something that is yours and that you have built, you know, from your own skill set, just really.
Bill:But at the same time, the other thing, honestly, that I've never been able to shake, kind of the question about or the wondering about, is a bartender, in all honesty, like at a local community pub, kind of like relational, conversational I used to think barista, but, and I'm sorry, starbucks patrons, y'all are a pretentious lot with your, your orders that are longer than they need to be, but like just where, where people would be, you know again, like just you know enjoying a drink and casual conversation and you know just kind of the knowing everybody and everybody knowing me and like you know, knowing what their usual is and not quite cheers, but the same kind of, the same kind of idea, right, and like all of that kind of again, maybe maybe it's the naive kind of sense that you know it would be all of that relational stuff that I love about ministry, without all of the stakes and grief Different kind of stake, yeah yeah.
Bill:And so I mean, like those are the two and I do actually know how to. I have a number of books at home on mixing different drinks and I have a very well-stocked liquor cabinet and I am certainly not a prohibitionist in any way, shape or form. So, all right, funnily enough maybe not funnily enough most of the questions we received were podcast related, and that's not surprising because this podcast, obviously this is our first season. This was a very new kind, you know, kind of venture for folks, and I think even some of the folks that have been sitting in our chairs have been kind of doing it with morbid curiosity about just what exactly this thing is.
Bill:So when I was thinking about scriptures, I was actually thinking about the moment in Luke's gospel after the resurrection, when the two disciples are walking along the road and they're confused about what just kind of happened and trying to make sense of everything, and then Jesus shows up to them and joins them in conversation and they don't even recognize him at first, and then eventually they get to the point where they look back at everything that had happened with Jesus on the road and go wait a second, like that was a divine moment that actually mattered. Right. That was something more than what we thought it was, and that's how this podcast has certainly for me at least, felt a lot of the time right. It was best to begin with, a noble failure with potential and a grand holy experiment. And yet here we are at the end of a year, basically at this point, and with a few hundred listeners and followers and some growth and some excitement and a second season on the way.
Bill:So there's a number of podcast questions here and we're just going to jump right into them. What's your favorite part of having a podcast, being on a podcast? Jump right into them.
Joanne:What's your favorite part of having a podcast? Being on a podcast? Well, like I said before, what's my favorite thing to do? Have an intentional conversation about things that really matter. It's what I love doing, and so having this opportunity to sit there and talk about God, or talk about love, or talk about, you know, sex or any of those things that really matter to people's lives and and to be able to, like, go deeper, I love that. That's for me, for sure.
Ricardo:Yeah, I agree, and.
Ricardo:I think the three of us are. We work quite well together when we have our conversations, which helps a lot. And I just two things further to that I mean. The first is that you know it's so many amazing perspectives we get from the guests on this show, honestly, even from people that I know, like Derek Cook from the Poverty Institute.
Ricardo:I've known Derek since I was a child because he's married to my cousin, like known him for 30 years, june from Action Dignity. I've known him for a long time and and things that they said on our podcast that I didn't know about them or that, or that they they uh, a perspective that they had that I never knew about them was it was really cool for me to to enjoy and listen to. Um, every single guest on this podcast has been truly exceptional, and the number of book recommendations that I have I think I've said this on the podcast before buying books is a completely separate hobby than actually reading the books, and so I have to now start catching up on reading the books. I have to now start catching up on reading the books. And my final beautiful goal in this podcast, and the manifestation of why I keep doing this, is that one person in Japan that literally keeps listening to us every month on end. If I need to like, we should do like a special Podcast live from Japan.
Bill:Yeah, we're all going to fly to Japan, live from Japan. Our special guest're all going to fly to Japan, live from Japan.
Ricardo:Our special guest is the one devoted from the start listener from Japan that listens to our podcast religiously, so shout out to that person.
Joanne:Tell us all about yourself please, you are what keeps. Ricardo showing up.
Ricardo:Tell us all about yourself, please yeah.
Bill:Yeah, I mean for me it's been largely the same thing. But I would mean for me it's been it's been largely the same thing. But I would like I would say that for me the the greatest joy that I've had, or my favorite part of being on the podcast, has been the response from guests. Right Like when we started, I actually kind of anticipated that it was going to be pulling teeth trying to get people to actually come and and sit down and have these conversations.
Bill:And in fact, the response has been like quite fantastic and quite phenomenal. Right, it gets to the point where, um, or it's gotten to the point now where, um, I still expect to hear a no, um, but you know, asking anyway just makes sense, right, and uh, and yet, uh, we haven't really received a no yet. I don't think to any request we've made.
Ricardo:We've received some resistance to our format, or they want things to go their way when they're putting themselves on being recorded, but once they listen to one of our episodes, I think all those walls break down.
Bill:Yeah, I mean, in fairness, I think they had a sense that we were expecting talking points from them, as opposed to just come and be a part of right and and and.
Bill:As soon as they yeah, as you said, as soon as they listened to even one episode, it was a well, no wait, it's like throw my talking points out. I'd much rather do what you're doing, right. So so I mean, like it has been, it has been like really exciting and really fun to to chase the, you know, chase, chase the guests that you're, you know, you really want to have there and actually have them say, yeah, I'll be there, right, um, and they're never talking, you know, about their wheelhouse. They're talking kind of you know, wheelhouse adjacent right Um, which is, um, again, like just so fun to see them do the same work that we do around trying to bring it into, you know, the sphere of the issue from outside or from, you know, a peripheral kind of viewpoint. So I've really enjoyed it. So the next question, because I want to get through as many of them as we can who would be your dream podcast guest?
Joanne:Barack Obama.
Bill:Okay.
Joanne:Shoot for the stars Yep.
Bill:Yep.
Ricardo:Unattainable.
Bill:Dream.
Ricardo:Dream.
Bill:Dream.
Ricardo:Jagmeet Singh or some high profile liberal politician, maybe even Prime Minister Carney, right, I think Nahid Nenshi would be cool to have here too, right? Bernie Sanders yeah, that's right. Right Out of politics and mixing social justice with religion. William Barber yeah, he's a really interesting man, william Barber. William Barber with the.
Joanne:William Barber yeah, he's a really interesting man, william Barber.
Ricardo:William Barber with the Poor People's Campaign yeah, he's actually has a podcast with the Poor People's Campaign, but to have him like he's actually like. When I was interviewing for my job at the union 16 years ago, they asked me who my heroes were and I said William Barber was one of my heroes because I still had a deep root in my faith. This was before I joined McDougal and he ties together faith with social justice. So well For sure, right. And so William Barber would be your dream podcast person. I would just be like, right, yeah, for sure. So, interestingly enough, the answer I would just be like right, yeah, for sure.
Bill:Um, so, interestingly enough, the answer I was going to give I can't give, and I'll tell you why in a moment. But, uh, um, uh, in all honesty, my number one, um, my number one dream podcast guest has been for the entirety of this time, um, somebody that probably nobody has heard of maybe they have Josie Balka, who is. She's one of the morning show hosts of Country 105, but she's also like on Instagram. She's a poet. She has a New York Times bestselling poetry book that just came out, called I Hope you Remember, and when the pandemic started in 2020, and we all were kind of, you know, forced to isolate and stay at home, my wife was still working. She was at one of the approved childcare centers or whatever that was staying open for frontline workers, and so I was at home, the kids were at home, the kids were in online school. Things are crazy. Isolation was a really big thing. We were leading worship out of my living room off my iPhone, tied to a two by four on Sunday morning, and a lot of the work was just around trying to teach people how to engage with technology and social media in ways that they hadn't before. I was trying to learn a bunch of new things. The stress was high and the morning show became kind of my outside world interaction from start to finish right, and so much of Greg and Josie's morning show was kind of central to my ability to stay sane in the midst of everything that was happening and there was, rightly or wrongly.
Bill:My assumption always is that the listenership for Country 105 is probably more conservative than, say, some of the other radio stations that there might be. We are in Alberta. There are a lot of pickup trucks with testicles hanging off their trailer hitches and yet at the same time, like Josie Balka has talked about you know her own mental health struggles, her own like she's getting married this year and her poetry that she shares on social media that has been compiled in her book is all about the beauty and tragedy of human living and she brought so much of that and so much of herself into and still does bring so much of that into everything she does you feel cared for, even by a morning show, and she would be a fascinating person for me to be on the podcast because of the depth of her humanity and just the experience of listening to her for so many years. So the other person that I would normally say would be Sarah Charters, was a huge guest dream of mine to have Sarah Charters, who is the United Church of Canada Foundation President and the Philanthropy Unit's lead, whatever the I can't remember right now chair of the Philanthropy Unit. Whatever the title is sorry, sarah, I've already got it wrong Anyhow, she is actually going to be our guest and this was.
Bill:This was one of those really weird moments, like I was saying earlier, where, like we're having general council 45 here in Calgary in August and it's going to be, there's going to be so much about it that's quite meaningful and historic. It's the start of the next 100 years of the United Church of Canada. There's going to be a historic apology to the 2SLGBTQIA community. That is going to happen in worship during General Council 45 at Knox United Church here in Calgary. There's just so many milestone moments that are going to happen here in Calgary as a part of GC45.
Bill:And so, like I took the shot and everyone said, like don't bother asking her, like they're all going to be really busy, right? And I emailed her and I started with it I know you're going to be busy and you're probably going to tell me no, right? And she was like, absolutely Like, tell me when I'll be there. And it was like, okay, I totally expect you to say no, give me a minute here to figure all this out, right? So she's coming in August and she's coming the night before general council starts to be. A here in our studio, recording with us on that night is going to be a really exciting thing. So where we thought this was our last episode, we got one more before the season ends now that we never thought was coming. So yeah, I mean, but still Josie Balka would be mine. So, yeah, I mean, but still Josie Balka would be mine.
Joanne:So I have to give a shout out to Wab Kanu because, I was thinking. There's someone I listen to. Now I keep saying I love everything he says and it's Wab Kanu, who's the premier of Manitoba. And what a wonderful human being At least he seems to be to me as far as politicians go Well more than politicians. I just I would love to have a conversation with him.
Ricardo:He brings humanity to the pulpit. He sure does, he sure does there was a lot of pushback when the province of Manitoba did that, brought those Palestinian children in for cancer treatment. When we're standing in front of our creator. We couldn't end all wars, but we did what we could.
Joanne:Yes, that's exactly right. That's exactly the message people need to hear. Yeah, so real and lovely.
Bill:Have there been any surprising takeaways from this podcast experience?
Ricardo:No, I don't. I expected a sense of fulfillment, to be honest, with you, I expected a sense of, I expected an experience, and it's been a great one, right. When I first started this, you're right it seemed like doomed to fail. Right, and I was so honored and proud that you guys asked me to be on this podcast with you, and I think it was a great, um, a great experience. But I didn't know how long it will last, for Right. And look, here we are almost a year later, Um and uh, I uh hold very sacred in my calendar podcast days, right, and I tell my assistant you don't schedule anything in the podcast day. Right, In fact, I have to go to Edmonton after this podcast, but I stayed till I could do podcasts and drive to Edmonton right afterwards. Right, and I find myself now selling the podcast.
Ricardo:I send the link all the time to my friends Listen to our podcast episode and so many of my friends listen to it and it's great. And that's the unexpected thing that I like. I'm literally like I'm an advertiser, right, but I'm advertising like something that I'm actually passionate about, like I'm passionate about labor rights and labor relations and all that kind of thing, but it's like oh yeah, look at this article about Safeway, we're going to strike over here, support us. That stuff's easy to put on Facebook, right, because someone else is creating that communication poster for me. But for this, listen to me speak from the heart for an hour and a half, and people are doing it and it brings me great joy. So that's the experience, and the fulfillment is actually how. How good the experience has been and how fulfilled I get from this podcast has been a shock to me and I'm truly happy for it.
Joanne:So Well, yeah, I'm, I always have this. Notwithstanding that, every Sunday I stand up in front of people and, you know, basically present a short essay, I still think who cares what I think? Who cares what I think? So I love having conversations with you. That there's anybody outside of, people who know us and are sitting here, that listen is really always amazing to me. It's incredible. I think wow and had no expectations is really always amazing to me, like it's incredible, like I think wow, um, and had no expectations that that was going to happen. Um, probably the other thing that surprised not not surprised me, but I'm proud about is how much bill you have taken this as your baby in some ways. Um, you know this is is your dream. You dedicate hours to it, you are still excited and energized by the project and you know, it's just almost like a mother and, let's be honest, I'm old enough to be your mother but like just watching how you have loved this into being has been such joy for me and that has been my surprise.
Bill:That has been my surprise takeaway from it is just how how fun this has been and how engaging this has been and how much, how much this has become, you know, kind of my. It started off like we joked, right, this is my passion project, right, and now it's kind of the um, you know, like it's, it's it's fulfillment, in a way, like it's it's almost guilty for this to be part of the you know um, part of the, the work, the work of ministry in the church. Right, it's too much fun to be in ministry and I should probably apologize somewhere, but yeah, I mean it's been. I think for me, the stuff that has made it so important and worthwhile and keeps me going is the awareness that the voice we are trying to put out into the world does not have the same budget as the voice we're speaking against, and that you can go anywhere and hear messages of hate, discrimination, division, and they're bankrolled in ways that we certainly are not. Let's be honest, this is an amateur production that happens in the basement of a church on off hours and not on prime time, and yet, at the same time, it matters to people and it resonates with people, it matters to people and it resonates with people and I hope, and certainly I believe, that it provides a message for people that hear everywhere else that they don't matter, that they're not enough, that there is something wrong with them, and we have fun doing it too.
Bill:Right, like that's the. It's not like we sit here and grieve and lament all the time. I spend a lot of time editing out laughter volume in the course of it. Right, like that's the. It's not like we sit here and grieve and lament all the time. Like I spend a lot of time editing out laughter volume um, in the course of it. Right, we, we can have fun talking about things that matter without losing the um, the gravity of it at the same time. Right, so I think. I think there's something about modeling um good, respectful. About modeling good, respectful, dignified, human, not too serious but not diminutive conversation that is missing in our world. Right, and that's just. It's been a joy. I'm looking forward to like continuing this right as long as possible, for that very reason.
Ricardo:So I think a mark of your enthusiasm when you told me that your wife was starting to question your marital intentions, which is sort of finding polyamorous and open relationship.
Bill:Yeah, yeah, I mean like people people probably don't know in in in the audience that, uh, like, I do a lot of reading and research before every episode, um and uh, and because of that and because I buy most of my books digitally, um, my algorithms constantly change. So before we did the episode in February on sexual ethics and polyamory, I was reading up on it and all of my algorithms, and therefore a lot of the algorithms on shared devices in our house, started polyamory. And you know how do you have multiple partners?
Bill:Bill is there something you want to tell me, and there were questions around my house about, like, what are you doing in your off time there, sir? Right, and yeah, I mean like that's. The fun thing about it, though, is that like it's blown open, like even like I don't come to these conversations as any more of an expert than anyone else here, right, and the ability to like the privilege to be able to research and like try to frame these out and find questions and again to like figure out how it is that we shift and grow and like we're not running the same podcast. You know in the last few episodes that we were in our first two, right, it's humbling and yet fun to go back and listen, like listen to our first two. Right, it's humbling and yet fun to go back and listen, like listen to our first two episodes and where we're at now and where we've been for the last three or four right.
Joanne:When I wasn't here, you mean.
Bill:No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, joanne, it started, I mean-.
Joanne:Nobody wants to hear what I have to say anyway.
Bill:No, it's like it's. It's been fascinating to grow into it as much as anything, right, um, and and yeah, I mean it's been a, it's been a real joy, um.
Ricardo:I think and I don't think anybody in this room uh, um belittles the fact that this is also, like you know, you're working right now. This is part of your job as well, but it's. I'm part of, uh, our constituency group called outreach, which is the 2s lgbtq um committee, and we're putting a conference together on creating um queer allyship in our unions, especially with what's happening in the us, and the conference will be in philadelphia and I'm like completely enthralled with it right now and I want to do everything possible. I even asked him well, it's going to go three or four days early and help them set up and put courses and stuff like that.
Ricardo:And she's like, you know, you have like a job here in Alberta that you need to do, but you know it's the thing in your job that drives you Right. And I remember one time you know it was quite early on in the podcast when you were talking about podcast Bill and sending all the stats, and I said to you you like this. You're like, well, you know this week was particularly hard. I think you had like three funerals and one of them being one of the most difficult kind of funerals you could have, with the death of a child right, and then you got to work on a podcast and that is the most welcome distraction you could have and so.
Bill:Absolutely Even today, I mean, I went from funeral and, um, yeah, I mean like it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's been fun. It really has been. Um, the how much fun it's been has been surprising. Um and uh, and so yeah, two last questions Um, what topic from season one would you want to revisit and would you approach it differently? I'll answer that one. First I feel like I can pinpoint the minute and second, that we lost the handle on the February sex episode. Ah, yes, that ended up with an explicit content warning. Not that it was again. It's actually one of my favorite episodes, but it might've been too soon for people, and so I think that that is one that I would love to read, like if I knew then what I know now. Not that the content or whatever necessarily would have changed, but the framing of it might have. That would be my answer to that one.
Ricardo:It's still one of my favorite episodes, though I'm having trouble thinking now of which episode We've done so many.
Ricardo:I missed a couple because of work and uh and such, but um, I think that the pride one was um one that I'd like to have a bit more uh I don't know if structure is the word because we the topic was let my gender flow and talking about binaries and stuff like that, and I think a lot of it went a bit awry with respect to what and I think I said this when we were doing our prep that some of the most meaningful conversation we had around the topic of pride was like afterwards, when we had the Q&A right.
Bill:There's a substantial amount of Q&A content that didn't make it into the podcast because, for those listening, once we turn off the microphones, we have a Q&A portion. That happens Once the podcast proper finishes. We do a Q&A segment for the folks in the room, and that was a profound Q&A. It ran long and there was a lot of engagement and a lot of questioning. That was some of the. I think it speaks, though, to the content of the podcast itself.
Ricardo:Every seat in this house was packed from that episode. Every seat was full. I think there was two people standing actually, and I just would have liked to have digged deeper into it, especially the social implications of gender identity, gender expression. How you know like I feel personally in my life right now in Canada, we are creating a protective bubble around our human rights code Because it's being rolled back so much in the US, being rolled back so much in Eastern Europe.
Ricardo:But like, look what happened in Hungary, right, you know, victor, whatever his name is, orban Orban made pride illegal and 200,000 people came out and marched in a pride march. That's what pride is right, and so I think that just what pride is right, and so I think that just the pride episode for me was like a lot of storytelling which is perfectly valid and perfectly fine, um, but, um, we could have, we could dig deeper, um, especially with the way things are going right now, um, with our community, um, we have a real opportunity for that kind of stuff, and maybe Tracy was really good at talking really, really strong language around it. But I didn't feel unfulfilled. I definitely still sold that episode and it's doing quite well in terms of listenership.
Bill:I just maybe I Maybe it was the start of a larger conversation.
Ricardo:Exactly, that's exactly it. Right, that's exactly it. A conversation that could not be happening in an hour and a half right? So, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Joanne:And I would say missing that conversation is like my biggest regret from the season because I and maybe not from the issues of non-binary, but the idea that God is queer is a really important part of my theological perspective and examining that and exploring that further would have been like I you know I was in Eastern Canada. It was all great Love the ocean, newfoundland's wonderful. If anyone wants to go to a great city, st John's is great, but still, I would have loved to have been a part of that. Yeah, for sure.
Bill:All right, and then is there a topic you would be really excited to tackle in season two. That's going to be the one that stumps you Really. Yeah, huh.
Joanne:Well, I mean, I think we could go a lot more into fascism because it's unfolding and the Christian response to like Christian nationalism is something that really is heartbreaking for me, like really heartbreaking. Heartbreaking for me, like really heartbreaking, because I was part of the evangelical tradition and the way I was raised. It's just not on display anymore and Jesus is too woke for some of them. I just think it has profound implications not just for our faith tradition but also for our politics. So I know we've kind of touched on it many times here, but the whole idea of Christian nationalism and why it's so, so wrong. I saw an interview today, I think someone was on Joe Rogan and said the reason you need like theocracy is so bad is because you have a fanatic who is saying it's not just a fascist, it's a fascist who said this is God's way.
Joanne:You know, self-interested as the name that should not be mentioned in the States brings God into conversation all the time is a really dangerous precedent for our tradition. You know like I fear for the Christian faith from Christian nationalism, actually, because there will be a backlash, it will happen and we will be swept up in it, because, as much as progressives like to say that they're not really Christians, yeah, they are, they are. I mean, christiana has a long history of colonization and violence and all that. So that kind of thing. I would like to get somebody who's like an expert on Christian nationalism to come and chat with us.
Ricardo:I think two things. The first would be to delve a little deeper into the issue around racism. I think we touched on it a bit. So, for example, we've had a topic on poverty, on being good neighbors, on love, on pride, and what we don't touch too deeply about is the fact that people of color are disproportionately negatively affected by all of those topics. So in the queer community and even in the heterosexual community, people of color are often looked past for relationships or love In poverty. People of color are disproportionately poorer than you could live in the same trailer park as a white person but still be, you know, disproportionately less advantageous than a white person.
Ricardo:So systemic racism is a big problem and I always remember Wab Kanu, who says that you can go for a concert or the Calgary Stampede and you'll see a white person on the street who just threw up everywhere and everyone's like, oh God, it's just the Stampede, Look at those idiots. But you look right next door and there's an Indigenous person in the same circumstance and our reaction is completely different, rooted in the racism we feel towards our indigenous people. So racism is a big one for me and we've touched on it, and I'm not saying that we're avoiding it by any way, should perform, or maybe like a topic around around it. Um, and I think intersectionality around religion would be cool too, like having an imam, or there was that person who was of the Buddhist faith that came to our Souls in Sync lunch once.
Joanne:Yes, sensei, ken.
Ricardo:Yeah.
Joanne:He's moved.
Ricardo:I think that Christian nationalism, coupled with like how do other religions survive in the age of America? In Christian nationalism? Like, how do the Muslim people, how are they being treated right now? How are Jewish people being treated in Canada right now? Right, we're in Fairview, right next door, which is actually a very large Jewish community in Fairview with the Chabad-Lubowit Shillong-Lenmore Trail, but now we have the Fairview Mosque in the same community, so it's a really cool uh dynamic in this pocket of calgary. But I think intersectionality among religion would be really would be a really cool thing to do, right?
Bill:so yeah, and I mean for me, uh, one of the things that's always been kind of a strange uh wondering for me more than anything is around, uh, um sort of conversations around incarnation, um, or embodied um, embodied kind of faith, right. So, again, certainly in no small part due to the fact that, you know, I'm kind of, in this whole, like planning to run a marathon before I'm 50 and kind of skirting around the edges of the fitness kind of industry and messaging and what we're told about our bodies and what we're told about our health and our care and the purpose for our bodies. Even right that alongside all the other mental health things, eating disorders, all these other kinds of issues are on the rise that we still deal with. I think some messaging and even in the Christian tradition it's certainly rising out of some of the other kind of nonsensical stuff that we're hearing out of, some of the messaging coming largely out of the US, but again, not by any means not here in Canada as well, just around you know, like what a woman's body is supposed to be for, for instance, or why women should be taking care of themselves and how they should be looking and what they should be doing, but even expectations around men and masculinity and all that kind of stuff. I think that there's probably a need for there to be a different narrative out there than just the one that you can easily find, and I think there's a responsibility to respond in some ways to that kind of stuff. That would be, for me, a really deep and interesting. What does it mean to be made in the image of God, right? And then what is our response? That hopefully moves beyond your body as a temple, right, because that may or may not be the wrong bloody message.
Bill:So yeah, that covers the lion's share of the questions we were asked, covers the lion's share of the questions we were asked, and I think we have done the college try at keeping it honest and open and certainly sharing from the deep places where we can. So it seems like a good place for us to break for this evening. Normally I'd be saying that's the end of season one, but, as we have announced tonight, we have one more really exciting episode now that will be coming in August. So we will see you all at our next very special General Counsel 45 episode. That will happen in August, but until then, this is Prepared to Drown.
Bill:Signing off for the evening is prepared to drown. Signing off for the evening. And that's a wrap on season one. Thank you for the questions, the stories, the laughter and the vulnerability. Thank you for listening and thank you for showing us that the conversations matter and that theology can be curious and messy and brave and still be full of grace. We're not done. There's still one surprise left to come this summer summer and season two is already taking shape, with deeper dives, new guests and more questions. We're still learning how to ask. In the meantime, you can catch up on past episodes and find bonus content and connect with us at prepare to drowncom or over on patreon from all of us, from joanne ricardo and myself. Thank you truly. Until next time, stay curious, stay curious, stay kind and remember that grace is big enough for all of us, even when we're in over our heads.