Episode 17 - Drawn From The Headwaters

Headlines race ahead of facts, and the first loud version often becomes the truth we trust. We gather a panel to ask a bracing question: who gets to tell sacred and truth-bearing stories, and how do those stories shape who belongs, who is feared, and what we excuse? From a Monty Python hymn at a funeral to anime, Good Omens, and Lucifer, we trace how pop culture remixes Scripture, how satire reframes power, and why reinterpretation can feel liberating to some and threatening to others.

Our guests—Rev. Dave Holmes, justice advocate Robin Padani, filmmaker Nick Johnson (Sunburnt Unicorn), and regular contributor Ricardo Di Menezes—dig into permission, appropriation, and consent. We talk about turning land acknowledgments into living commitments, survivor-led storytelling that moves courts and cabinets, and the difficult line between empathy and co‑opting. We name the markers of misuse: narratives that reduce, divide, dehumanize, or aggrandize the teller. We confront political myth-making, softened histories of slavery, and weaponized texts that trade complexity for control.

Then we pivot to what sets people free. Nick shares the heart of Sunburnt Unicorn: you don’t need to be special to be worthy of love. Dave explores Scripture as a living conversation, where struggle can redeem and still leave a limp. Robin shows how agency and proximity transform “casework” into community power. Ricardo challenges anti‑fat bias and tokenism, calling for stories that honor the whole person. We close with a simple charge: tell the truth without turning it into a weapon; hold stories with open hands; choose belovedness over performance.

If this conversation moved you, follow the show, share it with a friend who cares about narrative and justice, and leave a review with the one story you think the world needs to hear next.

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Transcript

Opening: Stories Versus Facts

Bill 0:01

Friends, we are living in a world where stories move faster than facts. And the first version that people hear, or the loudest version that people hear, often becomes the version that they trust. All it takes is for a headline to land or a clip to get shared, maybe a common thread ignites, and before we have even taken a breath and cleared our heads, someone has already handed us the villain, the victim, the moral, and the marching orders. Stories have always had a strange power over our lives, and we have been telling them since the dawn of humanity. Because stories don't simply describe the world to us, they shape the world around us. They shape our understanding of who belongs, they shape our understanding of who is feared, they tell us who is believed and what we excuse and what we condemn and what we refuse to see. So tonight we are asking a question that sounds simple and yet carries real weight. Who gets to tell a sacred story? There is a hymn that says, You will never walk on water if you are not prepared to drink. Friends, I am Bill Bleaver, and there is one story I know to be true. This is Prepared to Dream. Let's take the plunge together. And we were thinking about Dante and Monty Python, and in fact, uh uh funeral that I recently did where they played Always Look on the Bright Side of Life as the closing uh song that the family walked out to, and somebody approached me after the funeral and said, I am so sorry that they did that to you. And uh I was left going, why? It's the the best possible song you could ever end a funeral with. Um We're also thinking about anime and uh streaming good omens and Lucifer and all of that on whether it be Prime or Netflix, uh, the way that scripture keeps showing up in unexpected places, being retold or reimagined, or sometimes even parodied or uh engaging in the time-honored tradition of satire. But the longer that we were sitting with this theme, the more we realized it isn't just about biblical reinterpretation, but about something bigger than that. It's about all of our truth stories. Uh all the stories that we tell ourselves and each other, the narratives that claim to tell us who we are, what's right, who's wrong, and how the world works. Scripture is one of those, and it's an important one of those, but so are some of our national myths, uh, justice narratives, villain origin stories, as my kids are hooked on wicked, uh, institutional damage control, and even our own personal testimonies. Because stories don't just entertain us, they form us, they shape our moral imagination, and when those stories are retold or reclaimed or reframed or satirized or challenged, something shifts for a lot of people. Sometimes that shift feels liberating, sometimes it feels destabilizing, and in the case of that one individual after that funeral, sometimes it feels threatening. So tonight we are asking who gets to tell a truth story in this day and age? What happens when that story leaves its assumed authority, and how do we retell powerful powerful narratives with integrity and compassion? In order to make that happen, I cannot do that on my own, and we are joined with a panel of fantastic individuals who have agreed to explore this topic with us. I am joined tonight by Robin Padani. He's IJM's IGM Canada's Director of Development and Mobilization for the Prairies. He works at the intersection of justice, storytelling, and action, where the way a story is framed can mobilize hope, uh, can mobilize resources, and can mobilize real real world change. So thank you for being here tonight, Robin.

Robin 3:57

Yeah, thanks for having me, Bill.

Bill 3:59

Beside him is uh Reverend Dave Holmes. He's a longtime United Church minister. He was my minister when I was a teenager. Uh, he is currently the minister at St. Andrews United Church in Lacombe. He has spent decades, over three decades, almost four decades, preaching sacred texts, watching how the same story can be wound in one way in one season and in another way in another season, and how it can heal or how it can harm. He's also a musician and a birder, and I know him as a man who pays attention to the patterns and the things in life that many of us miss. So thank you for being here tonight, Dave. It's a privilege.

Dave 4:37

Thanks.

Bill 4:38

And sitting right to my right is Nick Johnson. He's a writer and director and cartoonist and the creator of the animated feature Sunburnt Unicorn that you can watch on Amazon Prime, which explores myth and identity and narrative through surreal, very surreal storytelling. Uh he teaches illustration and character design, which means he knows how to shape how characters are seen and understood. So thank you for being here as well tonight, Nick.

Nick 5:03

Thank you for having me.

Bill 5:04

And then rounding out the panel is our regular Ricardo Di Menezes, who is here uh wearing many hats uh and certainly a regular uh on this podcast. And as always, glad to have you here, good sir, on the other end of the table from me. Hi, so I want to start simple, and maybe it's not actually that simple, but when you hear the phrase retelling a secret story or retelling a truth story, what is the first reaction that that elicits for you?

Dave 5:40

Dead silence. Well, I can say this is my job. That's what I do. Um I I am I am uh paid, I guess, and called to retell the stories every Sunday. Uh and uh yeah, I I mean that's that that's the first reaction. That's that's my job.

Bill 6:05

So have you ever preached a text? I know the answer to this, but I'm gonna ask it to you anyway. Have you ever preached a text one way early in your ministry and then gone back to it years later and realized that it actually meant something completely different than how you first preached it?

Introducing The Panel

Dave 6:19

Sure, sure. And the the story around that one is is actually too long to tell here, probably. Uh but there's there was uh I don't know if you if you know a one of the parables, it's it's a it's a parable uh where there's uh uh king going off on a journey and he gives uh some some uh uh some money to each of three of his servants, talents. They're there there, it's a which is a uh an old measure of money. Uh and the the servants are supposed to trade with it while the master is gone. Uh and he comes home and one of them has made a lot of money trading and gets rewarded. Another one has made yeah, not a lot of money, but not quite as much, and gets rewarded. And one of them has simply um hidden, buried his his master's talent and gives gives the talent back again. And that servant is vilified and cast into the outer darkness where men shall weep and gnash their teeth. Uh and uh I always heard that as you gotta use the gifts God gives you. And then somebody at a workshop uh actually did some historical work and said, uh, you know what, there's a lot of really funny stuff in this, uh, and totally changed the way I look at that. Uh and uh yeah, once once you once you see, you you can't unsee.

Robin 7:47

Um I think that retelling piece is is uh is really key because I I find my experience of hearing something again and again and again, and you're dead into it at some point. And uh the example I'll think of this is I was at an event one time, it was uh at the Calgary Library downtown, and um it was a a workshop put on by an elder residence on how to tell uh a land acknowledgement, but in your own words. And too often it it takes the tone of you know, the the bathrooms are here, smoking is outside, and oh by the way, we're acknowledging that we're on Treaty 7 land. And it becomes this afterthought in the same monotonous voice as you would use, you know, talking about the logistics of the day. And that challenge really I took away from that the opportunity to sit down, take the wording of a land acknowledgement, and frame it as if I were saying it. Um and it was it was really interesting because I remember I had a chance to to um MC an event shared in my own words, even language where you know we say truth and reconciliation, truth it it becomes a buzzword. But even changing how I approached the root of those terms and said, you know, in order for us to be reconciled one to another, we need to acknowledge what was true about our history and and what has been done in our country. And same root words, truth and reconciliation, but just changing how I phrased it. People afterwards said, wow, that was really struck out, you know, stood out to me how you shared that land acknowledgement. Some people asked me for the wording of it, which kind of defeats the purpose of doing it in your own voice. But to me, that that retelling of a text, sometimes you just need to hear it, even if it's in the same it's using the same form of the same words, but in a different way. And that's often where I think truth it it becomes new again. We can hear it with fresh ears if it's not just said the same way over and over and over again.

Retelling As A Calling

Ricardo 9:44

Not to be the pessimist in the room, but uh in my line of work right now, I I think the retelling of stories is framed uh most concerningly in today's day and age as history starting to repeat itself. Um the way the world is functioning right now with uh I mean, just yesterday the announcement from our premier about uh referendum that she's holding and immigration is is such a is such a catch coin word right now as well, right? Without understanding the full nuances of the reasons people want to migrate and work in other places and live in other places and whether or not we value the work and this then the skills that they bring. But also um just uh the devaluing and the the pressure on working people to um stay at work and work for the meager wages that they earn is history repeating itself. Uh um you know, in World War II, that's the first thing that they did in Europe was to attack the people that worked um in the trade union movement in order to suppress their their thought and their ideas and keep them working so they could be subservient to the government. We live in a world now where after World War II the working class ballooned and became the richest time that that happened, and in the 90s uh it started to deteriorate again. And we're at the point now where you know um people have to make a choice on whether or not they pay rent or feed their families, and they don't have the capacity or the bandwidth to even think about um your neighbor uh and how the actions of government are affecting them as well, right? Um so that's that's when I think about storytelling, and and especially in my experience right now in the world is uh I'm fighting the constant one step forward, three steps back uh in in the world we live in. Um and so storytelling in many ways um is a nice escape. It's a nice it's a nice way for us to envision and what what we could have in a world, right?

Dave 11:45

Well, like except that I I do think that what you know politicians are doing right now is attempting to control the stories by which we understand the world. And and those are incredibly important because you know, I mean it it's you know I always hate it when people say it's just a story. Um you know, it's just a story that that says that you know the immigrants are the problem, that it's immigrants that are are are uh causing us to have unaffordable housing or inaccessible health care or or what have you. And like I I look to this to the states and and see that that uh you know the current administration is is doing things like um uh dictating what museums can show. Yeah. Uh and it's it it's controlling the story by which we understand our society. That's incredibly important, I think. Uh and and so it it's yeah, I I mean that because what what like our whole understanding of our society is really a selection of stories.

Robin 12:59

Is that appropriation of of uh a story for a some sort of purpose or some sort of end? That's what you're talking about, David.

Fresh Language For Land Acknowledgments

Dave 13:06

I mean it is, but it it it's like for me, it's it's even deeper, like all of like how we understand our world is is a story. You know, the the the theory of evolution by natural selection is a story. It's a story that that that attempts to explain a um a set of observations. And and uh that's you know it it whether it's a a story that that talks about about uh how workers have you know lifted an economy or a s I mean it's it it's it's all story. Uh and and whoever kind of controls the story gets to control how a society moves. Uh and yeah, it I mean it it's it's a I don't know. I'll stop there.

Nick 14:00

Uh the first thing that jumped into my mind when you posed the question was be careful. Be careful. And be considerate. Um the idea of retelling someone else's sacred story is a really uh is something you definitely have to think about before you go on and reframe it and maybe tell your own version of it. Um I work with students at uh an art university, and a lot of them are creating their own uh characters and stories and ideas, and the best way to do that is to do your research, learn about different cultures, different uh places in the world, different kinds of stories. You have to be really careful about not just like yoinking some story and you have no idea what the context is and you start proliferating it and using it for your own uh devices, let's say. Um if uh yeah, so right now I'm working with an artist as well, and she's Ukrainian, she really wants to create this Ukrainian uh folk tale story, but that's not my background. So a huge part of that is researching it, talking to other people who have researched it. And while I do want to ensure that there's a theme to that story that I can relate to, so I'm invested, I need to make sure that I'm also uh honoring the themes that are part of that original story and part of their background as well, right? Uh because you use that word appropriation, um, which is the dangerous kind of zone, right?

Robin 15:14

Um then it it it can be self-serving or it's serving an end for which it wasn't created in the first place. But especially when you're talking about a personal story. But even what you were saying, Dave, is more even if you're talking about um stories about groups of people and and and how Yeah, who are we to to then take that and say, well, this is how I think it should have been intended or how it should have been used, and so I'm gonna shoehorn it into my purpose this way. Or from now on, it means this.

Politics, Myths, And Control

Nick 15:43

Right. Yeah. Uh in the but saying that though, um I feel and I think somebody was touching on this earlier, but the idea that like to make a story relevant to you and to make it relevant for these times, it kind of has to be retold. Um I was doing a lot of research into the art of adaptation a few years ago for my masters, and there was this really great line how um all uh adaptation is an act of reinterpretation. You must bring something of yourself to this in order to first honor that original work, but also to give it modern relevance. Um so while keeping in mind that you don't want to do the uh uh you don't want to twist what the original meaning was, you do need to give it that extra bit of your own personal experience uh to um to say something that means something to you and something that does feel pertinent. I think that's okay though.

Robin 16:39

Like I think that is good. Yeah, that that's where you're you're it's you know, we're all making meaning in our world of things that we hear. Um I often get accused of this in in conversations with some family where my wife reminds me, you know, just when someone is telling you something, to my often way of connecting and making that um like relational connection is to, you know, say, oh, I had a story like that, and I'm I'm trying to relate, but instead often what I'm doing is it it can feel like a one-upmanship. And catching that and going, well, where's the difference between, oh, I'm trying to empathize and understand what you're feeling versus I'm trying to now make it about me and my lens. Um I haven't quite figured it out yet. So if anyone else has any tips on that, but I know when I've overstepped and I know when it doesn't feel like a connection, it's like a it's a look at me moment. Um trying to figure out that way to how do I make meaning of whether it's a larger narrative or a more unique individual story without co-opting it.

Bill 17:39

Yeah, it's usually right about the time that they look at that they look at you and go, no, that's not actually what it's like at all, right? Um that you go, oh yeah, but maybe it isn't actually. Um there's there's always commonalities in our human experience. Yeah. Um, but there's also so much difference as well, right? And being able to recognize that that will be the case um you know in in every situation, that there will there will there will be places where our lives kind of intersect um and where the experience might be a shared experience, but the um the experience itself will be um done vastly different across um individuals and and cultures as well. Um so uh we're already kind of touching on something that I wonder a bit more about, and I want to come back to you, Nick, because um I'm gonna use the word permission. Um and I'm I'm gonna actually start with I'm not sure that's the right word, and you may have a better word for it. Um but uh what gives an artist permission to reimp reinterpret a story that is sacred to somebody else or speaks a truth to a different uh group or individual? What gives an artist permission uh to reinterpret that story? Permission may not be the right word.

Nick 18:43

Permission's a huge part of my practice in everything I do. Like I almost can't walk forward until I've kind of given myself permission in certain ways. And sometimes I hold myself back in my storytelling and in my art until I see another artist who's pushed themselves way further. You know, like, oh, they did that. That gives me permission to, you know, they did a whole movie that's one camera shot that doesn't move, you know, and it's an hour and a half. That gives me permission to do a long take somewhere in my film, you know. Um but uh yeah, there's no easy answer in in like when where can I get that permission? I think taking the time to reflect on it and find and come at it from your own perspective and find what matters to you so that at least you know you did the work before just jumping on board and and pushing the story that you actually don't know what it's about, for instance. Um and for me, I think a really core part of the experience is running it by peers and uh workshopping it with other people uh before I release my work because you know I embed certain things in there naturally or uh subliminally that I may not even be aware of. Um you think about certain like patriarchal speech or colonial speech that kind of embeds itself in your language, and sometimes the only way you can kind of really notice it is if somebody else points it out to you and you're like, oops. Um so I think, yeah, permission, it's internal, but it's also uh external from people that you trust. Um but at some point you kind of just have to take that risk and take that leap and um be ready to uh be rebuked and to to change and to learn and move on.

Robin 20:22

And to be very humble and apologize. Yeah, absolutely. That's where I think that that piece of grace can can exist. Where uh you know, if if we're there's this tension of we don't want to just walk around like bulls in china shops thinking that we can say whatever, do whatever, and because, well, you know, it's just a story. Well, you were saying, Dave, it's not just a story. There's substance and meaning in it shaping our world through these stories. But we also don't want to, you know, walk around on eggshells terrified of of saying anything and everything. Um but recognizing that you know, in order to be able to um in order to call out things like you know, you were talking to Ricardo about the history repeating itself and being able to call out the things that you're seeing, um at some point you have to be willing to tell that story. You've heard it enough times from the people you work with, you feel like they trust you with it, you feel like you can confidently tell it, and then if you step on something, you feel like there's a grace in those relationships for them to tell you. Exactly.

Permission, Appropriation, And Research

Ricardo 21:28

I I also um dwelling on on Bill's newest question or or topic, when you talk about history repeating itself too, like right now we are Black History Month, and um we see down in the US and in some parts of Canada people want to to soften or rewrite the story of of black Canadians and Americans. So I I was just listening to The Economist the other day on how like the state of Florida has changed the education system to to uh rewrite the s the history of slavery to say it was more of a skills building opportunity for black people. Than it was for slavery. Right? Or a lot of southern states are starting to um ensure that there is content devoted to um uh Confederate leaders and stuff like that, right? And you know, the the the fight is going on, and and you know, the fight continues when when when people are muzzled from their stories because they don't want to, because one s faction doesn't want to lose that history either. But it's when we talk about stories and reframing stories, we're not eliminating one side of a story in order to amplify one side of a story. We're telling the perspective of the people that were oppressed, right? Yeah. So when we build statues and name schools after after Confederate leaders and and people, like I think of the Langevin Bridge that was now the reconciliation bridge downtown.

Bill 22:50

And Langevin School near it is now Riverside.

Ricardo 22:53

It's not erasing Langevin. He existed. We can still tell his story, but we're telling the truth as to what he actually did when it came to residential schools. Uh and and and so somebody had said um the other day, I don't know what what when I was listening to, but I was in I was in Vancouver, and um, you know, some person was talking on TV about like, oh, you know, white people can be reuniting. I'm like, it's possible that white people can be uniting, but we can't also forget that they still hung people from trees. Um and in Germany, they don't have schools and statues named after you know Nazi generals and leaders and stuff like that. So at some point in time we have to reframe the stories and make sure that people know the truth of when when one uh facet of humanity um treats another uh area of humanity in a very, very demeaning and harsh way. It has to be told that so it never happens again. We can soften it and retell it so that you know there was some positive pieces to it, right? Uh I'm reading a book right now called Burn Master's House Down. It was just written published in in January by a gay author, and he the story talks about um a group of slaves that are trying to escape the plantation, and two of the link the leaders of the the the group running away are a gay couple. Um and um what he tells in the beginning in his in his forward is that you know this is this book is meant to be raw, and even if these things I don't have proof that these things happen in the way the slaves were treated by the master at some point in time through the 200 and some odd year history of slavery, someone did that to someone, right? And we have to accept that. And then for us to even soften the story in any way by saying, Oh well, black people way way back in the day, they used to enslave each other. And to say to say that is automatically lessening the impact of the race-driven oppression of black people in North America versus the indentured servitude system they had in the African continent, right? Where ownership and generational ownership and property ownership of a human being was way different than paying back a debt, right? So when we muddy the waters in storytelling, um, we don't ask permission from the people that were affected by it, right? We try and soften that so that it it de-amplifies their voices. Uh, because we all know till today, and maybe people don't, that um the effects of slavery and the effects of race relations in North America still has an adverse impact on people of color in society today. While black people are hypothetically and I guess even legally allowed to buy the same house a white person can, there are still social and psychological and emotional hurdles that they have to overcome with a white mortgage broker, a banker, or a white realtor, then other people will not have to do. Um, and I'll but I'll say this before I let someone else talk. There was a show I was watching where um uh a black couple was trying to sell their house, and uh the re the the realtor kept quoting them this price that they didn't feel right with because all the houses on the block were sorry, no, the realtor that was showing the house kept under bidding. And and they said, We're not accepting that because all the other houses here were were selling for way more. And what they did was they took their pictures of their family, their black family down and just bought a bunch of pictures from Michaels with white families on them and put it up, and all of a sudden the bids were over list, right? So it doesn't mean that people are bad in inherently, uh it's the stories that they're told because none of us in this room experienced or went through slavery. But it's what we're told and how we craft it and how the messaging is crafted. And when we have people and groups in society who want to lessen that impact and retell that story in ways that soften soften the reality, then we have we have problems starting, and that's where full circle we just talked about in the car, history repeating itself happens, right?

Empathy Without Co‑opting

Robin 26:55

I wanna I want to go back to something you said, Bill. Um because uh Ricardo, what you were just saying about um you know that that certain stories need to be told. We can't lessen them or soften them. Um and then your question, Bill, around like, well, then what what does give an artist or a storyteller um or an activist permission, license to tell someone else's sacred story? Um I I don't fully know. I mean, I I would start with this idea of going into that, you're not you're not trying to possess it. You're not saying that this is mine now, this is my story now. Um if you have an intent behind it, so we're entrusted at International Justice Mission, I'll I'll bring this to some of our work. Um because we're working with um survivors of sexual violence, exploitation around the world, um, men who've been forced into forced labor slavery in uh parts of South Asia, women and children who've either experienced uh domestic violence or sexual abuse. And because of the power dynamics at work, like we're aware that we're coming in a helping position of authority as legal experts in these countries around the world, um, 18 countries, 30 communities. But there's a dynamic that we have to be attentive to, that we're not coming into it thinking that we're neutral or that in light of this years and years of abuse and exploitation and oppression, that the story that's been told over this young woman or this child is not one of agency. It's not one of autonomy and of um of their own dignity to have and possess their own story. So as we have opportunities to tell their story, we have to be very mindful of that, that it might be very easy to get consent that doesn't feel like it was freely given because of those dynamics. And I've had this incredible experience where there was a young woman who um she was a survivor of sexual violence. Um, she had been a very powerful advocate, but at some point realized she didn't want to be known for that anymore. Like she didn't want that to be the defining characteristic of her story in her life, that before she entered the room, that story would precede her. And so she um withdrew her consent to be able to share that story as uh as a survivor. And I was so honored by how our organization communicated that. Um and it was it was very clear that as of this point forward, you know, we're not featuring her photos, her likeness, her story in any of our communications because it was her story and not ours. We were stewards of it, caretakers of it, um hopefully for the intent that she wanted it to be used for, but at some point she was allowed to retake um that agency. It was never it was never taken from her, but she knew, and and but you have to reinforce that. I think, especially when those dynamics are at play. Um and there's that question of well, when does something become in the public domain or not? I I think at any point, if if a person is trying to possess this for their own purposes, like if Ricardo's taking that story and and he's now trying to think, well, I think I know best what this community would want me to represent, versus constantly holding it with open hands to say, I want to be a good steward of it. Um, but at the same time, it's not mine. There's that tension there. And and I I was really like it was it was an interesting story because I remember hearing colleagues who were saying, like, oh, I'm so sorry that she's stepped away from survivor leadership. And I remember seeing it as a really dignifying moment to say, no, like she's she's reimagining her story now and saying, What else do I want to be known for? Yeah.

Bill 30:22

Yeah. And one of the things that I appreciate about IJM because we're using um we're using some of the resources from IJM through Lent here at McDougal and at Red Dear Lake United Church as well. And uh and and using some of the stories that you have provided with consent and with names changed. And um, but I also know that uh so much of your work is also about trying to um give people that agency over their own stories. So I know that they're like you've you've done uh you've set up podcast series for people to tell their own story and be able to um, you know, like share what they want to share, how they want to share it, um as they want to share it. Um you've given, you've given them kind of the the freedom and the space and the support to actually um reclaim their narrative, reclaim their dignity, and present what they want um their forward-facing um survivor story to be.

Consent, Agency, And Stewardship

Robin 31:10

And I will say that took us time as an organization to get there. I don't think we understood fully at the beginning. So IGEM started an operation, I think it was 1997. Um so this is Gary Haugen, who was our founder, had come back after um the Rwandan genocide. He was one of the UN forensic investigators that was actually responsible for chronicling that carnage. And since that time, you know, we we've, especially as an organization that are a lot of legal experts, a lot of lawyers, um, there was a focus at the time of on casework, on the immediate outcomes. How can we help this one young woman or this one family out of bonded labor slavery or exploitation? And even when I started at IGM about five years ago, I didn't really understand how core survivor voices were to our work. Um but over time I think we've realized m a couple things. One, I mean, the agency was always there. It's not that we had to give them agency. Sometimes it's just about affirming what's already there, um, you know, the God-given dignity that this man or woman or child has. The other part of it, too, was recognizing um there's something, there's something about a story, especially if it's a person's story. Like I could sit here and tell a story of a child who's experienced exploitation or a woman who um had experienced sexual violence, but it's several degrees removed. And you can nod along, or if we were sitting in front of a justice official in Guatemala or something, I could tell stats and figures around the, you know, the rate of impunity and how many cases go unprosecuted. But for a survivor to say, I brought this to the police and they sent me home. Or for a woman to say, When my children and I needed to leave, there was nowhere for us to go because the government doesn't offer um repatriation services for families who've fled bonded labor slavery. There's a massive gap. We were defenseless in the face of our abusers. That just cuts underneath all of that rhetoric and the statistics. And so I started realizing five years ago, and I think IJM did, at the time, if I could be so uh self-critical, I thought, yeah, survivor voices, that's that's a nice to have. It's sort of a it's a it's a marketing piece, a narrative piece. But realizing, I mean Dave, you're saying like story is everything, right? It's it's woven into who we are as humans. I started realizing, man, the the stories of these survivors are kicking down doors of power in ways that the best and most high-powered lawyers in IGM's global offices couldn't do because there's a power there, and it's irrefutable, right? I could give you an argument and you can counter my argument and we can debate back and forth. But if a woman says, This happened to me, right, or this has happened to these people in history, like that's that's their experience. You can't say, well, no, it didn't. And and in a way, it my experience in hearing stories from colleagues anecdotally who've sat in those meetings with government officials and survivors, it it just becomes this fact. They go, Oh, we have to do something about it. We can't look away any longer. You can now choose not to do anything, but you can never again say you don't know. And in the same way, so many of these um be police chiefs or prosecutors or judges, once they hear the story from the mouths of people who've experienced it, they can they can't pretend like they didn't know.

Bill 34:37

So the cynic in me, because I'm not afraid to be the cynic at the table, um, would say that I think there's a certain degree in our world today now of um what what do you say like can't happen, right? That someone can say this happened to me. Uh-huh. Um and uh and I mean I try to stay north of the border as much as possible, or at least not focus solely on everything going on south of the border. Joanne's not here. That's not really her wheels. No. Um but uh but certainly, I mean, we we have things like Epstein files. Um but even outside of that, um uh, you know, uh a man is protesting in Minneapolis and is gun down on the sidewalk, and immediately you hear the competing narratives around um like the the war for the story, the war for reality, um carrying a gun, carrying a cell phone, homegrown terrorist, peaceful protester, right? Like we can um Renee Good as well, right? And and and the same kind of thing. Um you know, driving her car. Uh the the officer needed to go to the hospital and was internal bleeding, and you know, there's all this kind of stuff. And there's these um there's there's so many stories. I I I meet with people in my office frequently who I told my story to the police. Um I was sent home. Um it like it does pardon me, says it does still have like we I think the powers in our day have recognized the importance of crafting a good story, whether it be it's because of immigration that you can't find a doctor um or whatever it is, that there's there's now a competition for who actually gets to um have the authority to tell us what the truth is going to be. Um yeah.

Dave 36:23

Say say more about that. Because it's it like it, it's it's there there is a cacophony, as you as you describe very well. There's a cacophony of stories out there and a conflicting, like a there's a there's a battle for which story will be ascendant, which story will be accepted by the the bulk of the population, which which story will will determine the victor in this one.

Bill 36:48

Well, and I'm not even sure that the majority matters anymore, right? Well, even yeah, it's loudest almost.

Dave 36:52

Who's loudest? But but it's in in that kind of atmosphere, like it's almost like authority doesn't matter because people just jump in and yell.

Survivor Voices And Real Change

The Battle For Authoritative Narratives

Bill 37:05

T Well, and I and I've said on this podcast before, and it's my go-to one of my go-to phrases, unfortunately, is that like my experience of people always is that they will choose the authorities that are actually going to be authoritative in their life, right? So um I think there are people who I think there are still people out there who say, has this article been peer-reviewed? Um I think there's a whole schwack of people who say rebel news, like they are my go-to, right? Um and uh and the the crite there there's no accountability or responsibility or discipline required to even explain why that source is authoritative. Whether it be a news outlet or uh we were we were talking earlier before the podcast about like the difference between rebel news and CBC used to be we I think we assumed common sense uh to people. Um and what we're realizing now, I think, is that it may not be that common anymore. Well, there is that too. Um like and and some of it has been, at least in in my opinion, um, some of it has been what Ricardo was talking about, this idea of like softening the softening the story enough to kind of silence the voices, right? Like and it started with these, they seemed so dirty but benign kind of moments that I can track of, you know, there are good people on both sides, right? Um and uh and this like trying to humanize the humanize the people that were in the wrong. Um and and to be clear, we're human and people make mistakes. Um and and mistakes require reflection, responsibility, accountability, apology, and and a commitment to actually right the wrongs. Um not just you know, well, you're human. There are good people on both sides, and and that was the end of it. And it and it was supposed to it was supposed to dispel the wrong. Um I expected it wouldn't, but it totally did for a whole population of people. And this moments like these, these moments that start off on uh like not benign to people in the moment, but these these offhand comments that didn't get questioned, that are now full-on categorical um retellings of larger narratives. I I remember um just recently here in in Canada um the the day of the Tumblr Ridge shooting. Um and I remember as the as the story was still breaking, it was a really weird moment because uh my kids' school had done a my kid is gonna be really angry I'm telling this story, but I'm gonna do it anyway. Um my kids' school had just done a lockdown practice that day at school, and we got uh an email from a teacher that I thought was a blanket email, just sort of a generic to all parents, saying, you know, dear parents and guardians, um we did a lockdown practice today. During that lockdown practice, there were some students who didn't respect the process, were making noise, uh, encouraging laughter, like distracting other children, not participating, and then were unwilling to um discuss or take responsibility or accountability or whatever the case may be after the fact when uh when they were approached by teachers to discuss their behavior. And so, as I always do when I get these emails, I emailed the teacher back and just went, for my curiosity, is this a blanket email, or was one or both of my kids involved in this? Um and I expected blanket email. No. Sorry, this was not actually a blanket email. It was only sent to the parents of the um very few kids that were involved. And yeah, one of yours was. Um and I won't name names, um, but one of yours was. And not only was one of my kids involved, but in all honesty, both my wife and I went, huh, out of all three of our children, the least likely one, if you had asked us to place money, none of us would have banked on it being this one, right? Um and so while that was happening, and while we were having the really awkward conversation on the way home because dad was angry, um the Tumblr Ridge news was breaking. Um and so by the time we got home, I was going like real time because we had a whole conversation in the car about you have not had to grow up with the stories of Columbine or Tabor or um Sandy Hook Elementary or any of these stories, like you've you've been lucky enough in your childhood um to be subject to these lockdown uh practices um that are much like a fire drill practice. Um they take on a different tone when you have, you know, been around for a school shooting, or when you've been around for your house to burn down and you actually know how to get out, or whatever, like they they're different that way. And so as the story was unfolding, I thought my response was gonna be like, see, this is what we're talking about. Now you actually get to like know the story. But as it was unfolding, what actually happened for me was all I could think was the transgender community is gonna take a beating for this um because of our propensity to have to assign blame, um, usually, if not always, to a marginalized, vulnerable community, um, so that we can all say it's not me. Um it's them. They're the problem, none of this, right? And and as even as the stories were coming out about lack of, you know, lack of supports, uh, all the work that had been done to try to actually um engage in meaningful help and support and and and treatment and everything for the the shooter prior to the the obstacles that that family had faced, like all of it, uh even as all that was coming out, there was a whole movement that seemed to really pick up steam around no, no, no, this is a one one horse issue. Um, the story is really simple. It was a transgender individual that pulled the trigger. Um, and therein lies the entire, you know, sum total of what you need to know about this story.

Robin 43:24

And forgetting where in the United States, like 80 plus percent of shootings are men. Yep. Right? It it's it's a convenient trope and narrative. Um and your point around the story. Yeah. Right? Who's how a story can be used and weaponized in that context.

Bill 43:44

Trevor Burrus, Jr. But stats don't matter. Like when you say like say more about that, the stats don't matter, the trends don't matter. None of that peer reviewed, you know, testable empirical data matters. Um it it really feels more often than not like who can who can either tell the best story. Yell the loudest, maybe. But more importantly, who can poke the the raw nerve, right? If you can if you can hit that, nothing matters beyond that.

Dave 44:10

: Maybe that's the marker of a story that is being misused. Is that it demeans, it dismisses, it dehumanizes.

Robin 44:21

It reduces.

Dave 44:21

It reduces. Yeah. I mean, it it's I mean at first I was going to say, you know, when do you have permission to retell a sacred story when it becomes sacred to you? But I think when But I don't I don't know if that's good enough. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Bill 44:35

Well yeah, because the challenge might be in that I think there is a whole group of people right now that have very sacred stories about it.

Dave 44:42

Yeah, so it's it's more than that. But it but it maybe we need maybe we need to look less at at well, not less. In addition to permission and authority, just what what are the markers of a misused story so that we recognize it when we see it?

Bill 44:58

Well, what a fantastic segue into an intermission, because that's the very next question we're gonna talk about when we come back. So we're gonna take a brief break and then we will return. So before the break, we said we wanted to talk about what constitutes a misused story. And uh, Nick, I'm gonna start with you because there is a moment in Sunburnt Unicorn uh where the tortoise, who might be my favorite, most uncomfortable character ever, love it, uh, says to Frankie at uh the the peak of his anger. Uh if you ask the animals, they'll tell you that this place was destroyed by two creatures, both powerful and merciless, the Cactus King and the Unicorn. Their quest for glory laid waste to forests and cities alike, upsetting a delicate balance, and they did it without lifting a finger. It was their stories, the myths they fed into the world like a poison. And uh Yeah, let's start there. Uh what constitutes a myth-used story uh in the wisdom of the tortoise.

Nick 46:05

Um I think uh one thing I often think about um when I'm engaging with stories, what is the intention behind this story? And so I imagine stories that are being fed out and like poison are stories that are intended to have an effect um that raises up the person telling the story. Um and that's kind of specifically what that film is talking about. So people who try to create myths that make themselves seem more powerful, that make themselves seem more um uh mythological, uh, so that they so that you don't ask them questions, uh, so that you always listen to them, you always obey them. Um and in the end, uh people tell those kinds of stories when they want your love, but they don't know how else to get it. Um so the intention of those stories is is yeah, it's not on point. So yeah. Fair enough. So so more kind of the ego attached to the story almost. Yes. Absolutely. And and you know, it's it's more than just being like, I want power and um, I want you to listen to me. It's it's really people who have no idea how to engage with the world and how to actually uh create relationships and connect with people. And so they're like, well, if I create this myth about myself being the coolest, the smartest, the strongest, they'll have no choice but to love me. It's an act of desperation.

Bill 47:36

So, Dave, our sacred stories uh do a lot of that as well in the Christian tradition, or have the potential to do that a lot as well, and have been used in that way throughout uh the history of our Christian tradition in some ways to um communicate more sort of power um and authority over others uh than to uh expand the circle or expand the the seats at the table to include uh those who are, again, marginalized, vulnerable, last and least. That's probably fair. Yeah. That's probably fair. So what constitutes a misused uh sacred story, in your opinion?

Markers Of Misused Stories

Dave 48:16

Oh boy, you may have to come back to me. Um I'd I guess I'd yeah, I'm s I'm still thinking about what you said there. Um uh it's like intention is important. And if it's if it's to aggrandize to you know lift me up or or or uh like power is another word that that comes to mind. If it's about it's a if it's about getting me or us power, um then look out. If it's uh divisive story, a separation, uh us and them um look out. Uh yeah, I don't know. I like it's it's it's it's hard to put into words the You better come back to me on that one. Ferner? Ferner?

Bill 49:24

Ricardo, the church uh definitely yeah, I know. He he was like, don't look at me, don't make direct eye contact with Bill. Um you're too tall to hide. Um the church certainly uh you you grew up with the church telling you stories even about yourself, right? Um what constitutes a misused sacred story uh in your experience? Oh, let's all talk about Leviticus anytime we want to, please.

Fear, Division, And Weaponized Texts

Ricardo 49:49

Because that's the one that's used against me the most, right? For uh for homosexuality, right? Forgetting the verses above and below it, right? That we're all supposed to go by. But what isn't emphasized enough is the context and the bigger picture and what Jesus did as a human being and how he acted and how he would have treated people around him, right? And what they focus on are the words side by side with periods and commas that exist in the Bible and use that against humanity or to craft the narrative of their religion. So what I liked about you know leaving the Catholic Church in so many ways and joining the United Church of Canada was that the bigger picture, bigger tent experience that we have here. And uh I I like that that approach because it's it builds community rather than building structure and supporting structure, right? We have we have stories that are told um and actions that are made in the view of what we believe uh Jesus would have done. And it's unfortunate that that sense of community and storytelling and positive storytelling isn't done more in like the labor movement, right? Like, I mean, the Marxists and me would love the story of management coming down from their high horses and meeting the workers on the floor and creating the utopian widget chop. I don't know what I mean, I'm saying, but like um it's always about struggle and and fighting, and uh, and as much as those are important to show the emphasis of struggle and the importance of workers, uh workers uh um uplifting themselves, it's it's we stop there. We're the worst at celebrating our wins. We stopped there, like these workers in this workplace won this in their collective agreement, but it's not like this amplified the community where with the raises that they received and the and the better things, their kids were able to join sports. They're they were able to buy a bigger house and contribute to the community and contribute to their church, right? And so that's where the intersectionality of storytelling needs to come with community as well, and we need to um to to grasp that that that story um because me as a gay person and as a gay man often is all I'm seen as when I walk into different churches. It doesn't matter what I've done in my life or what I do in my life, it doesn't matter the people that I've helped. Everything seems to be washed away because I'm gay, right? And it makes it really difficult for me as a human being sometimes to find my fit. You were talking about that, the survivor, the survivor leadership. And when I first got uh hired by uh UFCW now 17 years ago, I felt like a trading card, right? Because um, I mean I made the mistake of calling all the leadership of the union stale, pale and male, and then they hired, you know, the young brown gay guy, and they're like, Well, look, we've got Ricardo, right? We've got Ricardo now, and I'm like, I'm actually a pretty good, you know, union rep too, right? Like, I'm actually doing all these other good things, like, but sure, just wave me up like a like a poster, right? And that in and of itself, to me gave me the same feelings that church gave me for punishing me or saying that I was less than worthy because I was gay, right? An object. Yeah. Yep. Right? So when you ask me like what you know what church has done to me, it's like it's not what church is what what the world uh has done to me in different perspectives. Some people think they're celebrating my existence by tokenizing who I am as a person rather than what I've contributed to the world. And some organizations um they they berate me and they demean me for who I am as a person. Um but sometimes it's it it has the same effect, right? Instead of treating me as uh who as an individual.

Dave 53:49

So maybe that's my my answer is what you said to use against. To use against if a story is used against, I think it is has a hard strong chance of being misused. And and particularly for for uh my faith, um, you know, when Jesus was asked, what are the greatest commandments? He said to love God and to love your neighbor. Uh and so if a story is not being used to draw us towards love of God and neighbor, there's a high chance it's being misused.

Nick 54:23

h I think of a lot of the stories I was told growing up, because um I grew up in a pre-strict uh well in in a Jehovah's Witness household. And a lot of the stories that we were told were ones that would make us afraid of the world. Uh so don't go out there and don't make friends with the world because these are the bad things that'll happen to you, or um, be afraid for uh your life if you leave this and Armageddon comes, right? And I mean I left that religion, it wasn't like I was never like I have to go back because I miss my family, or I have to go back because I want that love in my life again. It's I have to go back soon or I will die. You know? And so I if I take it back to that, yeah. Stories that make you afraid. I mean, I love horror films. Let's get that straight. But we we like the jump scare.

Bill 55:08

Um the jump scare is okay. Not the existential jump scare. Yeah.

Power, Humility, And Surrender

Robin 55:13

Um but not at the expense of anybody that isn't wearing a ghost face mask or the divisive piece, like I really resonated with what you were saying there, Dave, around how stories are used, or if they're used to they're used against you, or they're used to diminish you, or now you're a you're a marketing ploy. I I think when I think of sacred texts and the stories, um we David Dave and I were talking just before this uh at the break, how it's so easy um when you're confronted with the wickedness, the cruelty, the oppression in your story, how you have been complicit in that to instead of reinterpret your own story and be open to self-reflection and uh someone else's um perception of of how you're presenting yourself or how you're contributing to that, is to just to build the bricks higher, to defend that, to to entrench yourself further. And I think when I see the misuse of sacred texts in the Christian faith, especially by whether it's groups or people who are used to being in positions of power, it's this feeling of if if we allow the Jesus we really see in the sacred text to be true, then the the valleys are actually raised up and the hills are brought low, and there's this upside-down kingdom, right? Where the first will be last and the last will be first. That's really hard for someone who's used to being first, who's saying, You're asking me to do what? And I had this experience, and this isn't like the times when I've not done this are probably much more prevalent, but I had a conversation one time where a church I was a uh part of had asked me, say, would you be willing to let your name sit as an elder? And I said, You know what? I feel like there's a lot of representation for white, able-bodied cis men. I think there's a lot of people in our church whose voices need to be at that table who aren't. So no, I'll just I'll step back. And I I realized that it's that's we have so many opportunities to do that. When if you have the Jesus of the Bible who says, you know, if you lay down your life and come and follow me, like then you'll gain it. But if you try and hold on to your life, then you'll lose it. But I think what we're seeing so much, whether it's in political discourse or how it's being weaponized in whether sacred text reinterpretations or um religious community narratives, is this grasping and then this deep desire to say I can't. And then you completely miss the Jesus who in Philippians it says, you know, we're supposed to have the same attitude where he didn't grasp, even though he's equal with God, he empties himself. So the idea of actually what would it look like if we were to really be empty, then it changes too, because then you can be trusted with someone else's story. Right? I can trust Ricardo because he's not using my story to build himself up, right? Like you were saying, Nick, he he doesn't need to use a story to get power or love because he doesn't know how to do it out of this place of abundance, safety, security. You can be trusted with someone else's story because then you're not using it to build something for yourself. You're using it to better and bless the community, to bring shalom and healing, to bring those on the margins closer to the table. I mean that to me looks way more like the Jesus we see in the Bible.

Bill 58:47

Just gonna let that sit for a minute. So we've talked a bit about intent. And I am curious again, the cynic in me is jumping back in here again. Um He never left. No, doesn't he never does. Um where does I'll put it to you first, Robin, and then we can like anybody can certainly jump in. But you talked before the break um about the importance of there being grace in this process as well, right? Um and so I think we can all probably point to times either in our own lives or certainly in the lives of people we know where um whether it's the best of intentions or not, yeah, um, the the storytelling goes wrong. Um uh whether it's I think it's easy for us to say like misuse looks like all the times when the intent is wrong. Um but stories I think can also be misused um with the best of intentions and the outcome doesn't end up landing. You talked as well, Nick, before the break about the idea that like sometimes you will do all the research and all the work and and all the planning and you'll you'll put the story out and like get hit right away with uh, you know, like this was for whatever reason offensive or tone-deaf or um had layers of of language or or patriarchy or whatever that were still in there that were just totally missed in the process, right? And while the intent was um, you know, the highest possible intent, um, it still falls short, right? And the importance of grace in that, uh, Robin was what you were talking about before the break. But uh um at what point in time does uh does intent fall flat, or does it? Is intent always um enough?

Intention, Impact, And Grace

Robin 1:00:30

Yeah. I mean I think it's hard to know for starters. It's hard to know what someone's intent is. Sometimes you can see it, it's a neon, and you're you're like, oh, I know why you're trying to use that for XYZ. Um but I think in any of these circumstances, and I know this is a bit of a cop-out, but why it's so easy for us to experience this polarization, this div division when we're yelling at each other from our keyboards is because we're not in in connection with one another. It's a lot easier for me to hold a strong opinion about a gay man if I don't have a friend who's a gay man. But when you are entering into someone else's story, not theoretically, but at proximity, it changes how you experience your story. Because it's not just uh it's not a static thing, it's dynamic, it's living, it's it's personhood. That to me is where both the person whose story is is being you know, held, stewarded, um, can show grace when it's not used the way that maybe they would want to and tend to, and where the person who's, you know, even in the best of intentions, might trying to be bringing about healing or or reconciliation or beauty through telling that story um can ask for grace is because it's in the context of connection and relationship. And and I've experienced this even recently. I I was um on Vancouver Island just uh last week um visiting with my family. Um my dad's into the last days of life, and and so my siblings and I, we went out to go say goodbye. And um I've had certain narratives of how I thought that time would go. And as I got there, those particularities kind of fell away. Like there was a profoundly sacred moment just being with my dad and realizing that this was not really my story. Well, it was in respects, like this is really his story and his moment. And and even with my siblings, there was a beautiful liturgy I had a chance to pray in quiet moments as I was there, that just kind of said, No matter what, God, I'm here to be love and service to those in my family, whether they react with indifference or kindness or not at all. And the freedom, I think, in that to say it's not mine, it's not my story. That to me is where I can show grace and and hopefully I can ask for grace when I mess up, is because I'm not trying to use it to, like you were saying, Nick, I don't I don't need this story or this experience to build something in me. Um that's where I feel like if we're living in that space of community with one another and we're breaking down some of these divisions that exist, especially when we live in digital spaces, then we can show each other grace. And then and then you have a better sense, I think, of where intent falls and you can talk about it. And and that's the beautiful thing in in whether it's in relationships or in labor disputes, like those don't happen long distance. They happen in proximity, right? And not nearly enough. Sorry. No, no, but but that piece of of I don't know, you you can have more grace with when the intents are I or when and and hopefully you can wrestle things out closer in proximity to one another. Um I find it a lot easier to show grace to people who um mess up in my presence versus who just send me angry texts. And vice versa. I feel like if I'm being a jerk online, I'm probably not really deserving of grace, even if I might have the best of intentions because I'm not willing to rub shoulders in that space.

Dave 1:04:06

Well, that that that may be important too. I mean, I I'm thinking of what we were talking about earlier, and maybe maybe I'm the most neurotic on the table here, but I'm discovering that I like I'm pretty complicated inside, and I'm never like my motives are never pure. Ever. And and every story I tell is probably misused in some way. Um whether whether I wanted to or I probably don't. But but I like it's it's complicated. And I'm I'm thinking about you know the history of the United Church in the last 40 years. You know, we've discovered, oh crap, we we have participated in in the real oppression of women. We're we're the bad guys, we have been, when we always want to see ourselves as good guys. Oh crap, we we have also participated in in this uh sub in the in the oppression of LGBTQ. Um we've been the bad guys again. Um oh crap, residential schools, we've we were part of a genocide. Uh and as part of all of that kind of realization of our wrongdoing and the way we have grossly misused stories and power and all the rest of the stuff, um I think we I I hope we've learned some humility, but I also think that that the uh a much more authentic gospel has risen up for us. Uh and and I like I think what in some respects our our uh most horrible failures as we deal with them become our greatest strength. And it's it's the it's the it's been the grace of the people who have raised those issues. With us and from within in the church. It's been the grace of people who have uh kind of held us to account. And and uh uh I mean I guess it's the the the rubbing shoulders with real people in the midst of of our mistakes because I know darn well that we will make them always like we just keep like I hope we learn, I hope I learn. Um but man, I just keep messing up. Uh and that's just that's just part of it. Like I'd I I'd I do my best, but I know um that there's always, you know, like the the the the church has been colonial and we're still colonial and and we love to lose it, but we ain't yet, and neither have I. You know, it's it's uh I was gonna ask you like when was the time that you would because I I it surprises me to hear you say that you think you every story you tell is misused because you've been um well yeah, I mean Well I try, but but you know I'm I'm just as like I'm I'm like I'm a I'm a preacher, and so you know at least some of what I do, I confess, is I I want to be liked. And so I'm gonna misuse it.

Learning Through Failure

Bill 1:07:30

I yeah, public opinion is not my strong suit. Um so the the thing that I was the thing that I became aware of as I was watching Sunburn Unicorn, because I want to come back to that for one more moment, is the um like you talked about uh sort of the outcome of this this story that Frankie has about being uh um uh a unicorn and as a a means of getting power and for people to love him and to and and he even says at one point in time, you know, like people should worship me um for for being a unicorn. And I don't want to give away too much of the movie because I'm really hoping that everybody will watch it, um, because it is actually a a really fantastic story. Um but that's not how the story starts, or at least it's not how it felt like it started to me, right? It actually started out as a story that was um being shared by the tortoise. It felt like as a means of surviving um and and a means of um uh giving Frankie kind of the nudge to get started on the journey that he had to go on. And and it got twisted over time um and experience into something that was uh self-serving um you know to the bad, right? And and I think that uh that that we have a propensity for this in our in our humanity, in our in our ability to keep getting it wrong. Sometimes that uh again with the idea of intent um and the best of intentions, we're we're mortal, we bend it. Um what starts out as an act of love becomes an act of obsession. Uh what starts out as a um a desire to empower is to actually um you know uh move into control. Um and and we we tell stories, even even stories of redemption now, um or um uh of grace even uh tend to get bent uh just in in the telling. So um I I became aware as I had indicated earlier in the in the podcast, um my my daughters both really love the the the wicked movies, um, but never grew up with Wizard of Oz. Um so never actually got to they're they're younger, right? So um never got to hear the original story. It's not as groundbreaking um to flip the script when you don't know the script that you're flipping. Um in much the same way. My my kids were around for Maleficent, um, obviously the animated, you know, Disney Sleeping Beauty, um, before Maleficent also got spun, you know, and and we we have this this sort of desire now to reclaim even the the villains in our midst in some ways, but that also leads to um again what we see happening certainly in our news cycles of you know, there are they're just misunderstood. They're misunderstood, right? Um or um again, even the and I I hate that I'm going back south of the border again. I promised myself I wouldn't do this. Um but uh the response to the arrest, like Trump's response to the arrest of uh the former prince um as oh he's such a good guy. Um it's like, well, no, actually he he was objectively not. What we're hearing is that he actually isn't really that great a guy, right? And uh and so um there's this con like this this need to again even like bend redemption to the wrong side of the the narrative um in some ways, or to to take the to take the good and twist it toward the the misuse. Um so um I'm gonna start I think with Ricardo just because I can and uh and say like what do you why do you think this is that we are so prone to doing this? Because I'm not sure it's our belief that we're all inherently good that uh is leading us to do it.

Sunburnt Unicorn And Myth Poison

Ricardo 1:11:29

I I actually don't think or believe that our first reactions as modern-day humans is that people are inherently good. I think that people nowadays are so drawn by what they hear and see about people in social media or through word of mouth that quite often people I'm not by any means saying the print the former Prince Andrew's a good person, please let's do not. But let's let's be real. I think that uh people want to believe that there's goodness in people, but there are certain inescapable decisions that human beings make that that cannot be forgotten. And that's the piece I think that we try and um and and tone down. Um but I want to also um dive a little bit further into that where uh if people have served the the sentence that they were given for the crimes or decisions that they've made, there is a point in which we can forgive and move on and believe the people are good. And I I think about that now while the Olympics are happening in Italy, uh, and in the Paris ones that took place two years ago, uh there was a volleyball player from the Netherlands who was playing, and uh, think it was 12 or 13 years ago, he was convicted of rape. Um, convicted, tried, did nine years in prison, has gone out of prison, rehabilitated himself, has a family, kids, and stuff. But every single time that man walked out into the court, they were jeering and booing to the point where he couldn't even focus on the game. And so I thought to myself, I mean, everyone's initial reaction is that this man shouldn't exist in the world. I mean, that's some of the extreme behavior that people have, but in my mind, I thought to myself that he's he's paid his punishment for things, right? And so much like we we don't want to be defined as people who um by who we are or who we love or or our experiences, we shouldn't also be defined as people who haven't shown remorse or or made do um or or done our time for our mistakes and our and our decisions, right? So our stories can be crafted um in any way, and we can redeem ourselves, but it's up to everybody else to have that that reasonable um approach to every human being and see what they do uh and how they conduct themselves. So, for example, um has Prince Andrew redeemed himself in any way, shape, or form? I don't think so, right? I mean, there's a big huff and flurry around it um for the fact that he got arrested the first time in 400 years, a royal's been arrested and put in prison, right? But no one's focusing on like there's evidence to show he was participating in these actions and in these and no one's saying, well, well, when are we gonna deal with that? And thank God the the only person that has come out and said justice should do it have its due course is the king. He he's he's completely said, Well, he's my brother, there's not much I can say about it, right? I'm still tied to him in one way, one way or the other. I've stripped him of all his titles. But justice will do its thing, and hopefully at some point in time, people will will understand or accept the fact that he will he'll have his punishment, but or his his sentence. But does that should that follow him for the rest of his life?

Robin 1:15:06

I'm not sure. This this is where like the baffling nature of the gospel, in that like it is terrifying, right? It it comes from a place of of of judgment, of acknowledging your own total uh inadequacy or the you know the under underlying misogyny or racism or or um colonial mentality that I carry around with me. And and that's I think this is maybe why the reimagining of these stories like alleficent or you know, oh he's such a good guy, is because there's this this terrifying notion that we live in these absolutes, if if we say that this person is bad and they're absolutely bad, then they're beyond redemption. And if if we want to keep that own, that that self-reflection at bay from ourselves to not have to look at ourselves in that mirror of conviction, then we have to, well, they're bad, or well, everyone has a you know a good side to them. Maybe they're just misunderstood. The reality is, this is what the beautiful thing about forgiveness is, forgiveness never never says, oh, it's okay. No, forgiveness actually says what you did was harmful, oppressive, wrong, and I will choose not to hold this against you. Or God will choose not to hold this against us. So it is like the good, amazing, earth-shattering news about it is that we are both incredibly wicked and still incredibly loved. Like that. And it's hard for us to hold those two intention, I think. So we have to create these stories where, you know, Carel DeVille really just had a bad deal with puppies because her mom got knocked off a cliff or something like that. Like it we we can't just say, no, maybe she was objectively a terrible human. But all this to say, like, I think there's this fear of if I really stare into that dark pit of my soul, am I just gonna fall apart? And if I if I have nothing else to grasp on, then I have to create this narrative that says, well, I was actually, it wasn't really my fault. You don't understand the circumstances, and if you were in my shoes, you would have done the same thing. And I was just following orders. Like, there's so many ways that we try and twist ourselves in circles, but it's it's also I think it all falls apart at some point. This this is where this weird solid ground of the gospel that says, I actually do really need to be completely remade, and I don't have to defend myself anymore. Um, and that the court of public opinion that says you know, you paid your time. You like this is why you hear Jesus saying, as he quotes the scroll of Isaiah, you were in prison. I was in prison and you visited me. I've come to proclaim good news to the captives. Um even even people, even in our society, when we think of a uh community that is we would have very much like to lock them away, throw away the key, and forget they exist. But there is still throughout the scriptures is you know, I was in prison and you visited me.

Ricardo 1:18:00

But the court of public opinion now is riddled with insecurities. I mean, even somebody who has more followers on TikTok than you, you you we try and find a way to make to redeem ourselves and make ourselves more valuable against another person. So I mean you could you could be face to face with one of the richest, most philanthropic people in the world, and they said, Oh, I just went to McDonald's, and you were like, oh, I didn't I didn't know I was better than you. McDonald's sends 90 million cheeseburgers a day. Someone's eating them, but just because we find a reason to not like somebody first and foremost, before the cracks. We find the cracks for that's the world we live in now, right? Uh I mean We need that to make ourselves. To make ourselves feel more secure before we go after uh indulging a relationship in a community with somebody else.

Bill 1:18:43

But again, this is part of the story that we tell ourselves, as Nick was saying, right? It's actually got nothing to do with the other person. It's what we are telling to somehow lift ourselves.

Robin 1:18:53

Uh I've got to watch some British Unicorn now. Because now I just feel like I want to.

Bill 1:18:57

Yeah. Yeah.

Nick 1:18:58

I'm so stoked. You didn't just watch the movie. You watched the movie. I watched the movie. Yes. Yeah. I didn't need to make a trailer. I just should have had you talk about it. Anytime. It's a fantastic movie.

Redemption, Courage, And Wounds

Bill 1:19:09

Thank you. Yeah. So you're part of what you're talking about, though, that I I guess that I wonder about. Like you're you're describing almost an element of liberation, right? Yeah. Um, that there's there is a piece to all of this that uh like we have the choice not only to look into the like look at ourselves and kind of go like, oh man, am I ever gonna come out of here, but look at ourselves and and realize like maybe, maybe there is something about me that is not really that far off from this person that I'm currently telling the story about, right? And I was gonna go in two directions. I'm gonna choose the liberation approach on this one because I really have another question that I'll ask you later. Um, but uh uh we we've talked about what a misused story looks like. Um I think there might be some value in considering at least that we do have stories in our world um that liberate us. And I'm using liberation in the like the true freedom sense of the word, right? Um and some of them are as simple as you're enough just as you are, right? You are enough, right? But I'm um I I think there's more to it than just that. That like a a story that truly liberates us um has some qualities to it as well, has some intention behind it as well, has some characteristics behind it as well.

Robin 1:20:23

So if you don't want to take a stab at the I'll share one specific example from IGEM's casework, and it was this beautiful um public narrative training that that iGem's gotten to do with our survivor leaders. And it's this weird tension that we have to live in where we're not, like we said earlier, not giving agency, but we're being able to call it out. Um but for women, men uh who as a part of their um reclaiming of their story, not as something that uh defines them, but something that that actually can bring about redemption and good in their communities, where they want to see a justice system that responds to women and and children who were in a situation like them, you know, however many years ago, they know that there's incredible power in their story. Um and it's incredibly redemptive for so I was in Bolivia last year in March. Um I got to meet with this group of survivors, um, mostly women, a few men, who were survivors of sexual violence as children. And they're called um the Phoenix group, uh, you know, the Phoenix rising out of the ashes. But hearing them talk about the um just the power, the agency, the uh the sense of self that they discovered in this group. And there is this arc of uh the story of me, the story of we, and then the story of us, kind of the world around us. And it was this really cool dynamic where they got to connect what had happened to them, you know, calling out what was wrong about it, where the system failed them and where the supports that they needed weren't there, and yet to be able to call the things out that were still true. Like I remember talking to this young man, Sergio, and he was saying, I was talking about how hard it was, and I I said something to him after he was sharing with me, and I said, I'm just so sorry that there wasn't anyone there for you when he was 11 years old and this had happened to him. And he said, I look back at myself, I'm so proud of that young man because he knew what was happening was wrong. And even though he didn't know how to navigate the justice system, he still stood up and used his voice and he still tried to make this known. And I thought, wow, how incredible is that he can even go back to himself at 11 and speak truth and affirmation over him. But there's there is power in being able to say this doesn't this isn't a thing that that someone else, my abuser, is gonna hold over me. In fact, I'm gonna be able to see the bravery, the courage, the strength, the dignity that was always there and was untouched. And I'm still here. That's incredibly powerful to see the redemption of that story. Um But I think this is where you know, I can't say that to them. I can't say come to someone who's in a season of grief or suffering and say, well, one day this will make a really great story. Like that's not what this is about. It has to come out of it's it's it's this it's this bizarre process where they, you were talking about their own redemption, right? They are participants in it. They they have agency and step into that.

Ricardo 1:23:28

I'm gonna follow that up.

Bill 1:23:31

Okay, I'm gonna go to Dave then, actually. Liberating liberating characteristics of stories or characteristics of liberating stories.

Liberating Narratives And Belovedness

Dave 1:23:40

Um what I'm thinking of is uh the story in Genesis of Jacob. Uh Jacob uh is uh um steals his brother's birthright, his brother's parental blessing, and flees, uh, and then screws his uncle Laban out of a bunch of his possessions and flees, and finds himself between his uncle Laban and his brother Esau, and hears that his brother Esau is coming to meet him uh along with a small army. And uh uh what Jacob does is he sends his family ahead of him and he stays behind, uh look looking like he's gonna run away again. Um and in the night um this mysterious person comes and fights with him all night. Uh and uh um during the fight, uh Jacob is um maimed, hurt, um, comes out with a limp, um, but discovers that like he's been wrestling with God all night long uh and uh uh wrestles a blessing out of God. Um and then the next morning he goes across the river to where his family is and puts his family behind him uh and sends some gifts ahead for Esau. Um but when he meets Esau and his army, he's he's alone. Um and he makes provision for his family to be able to escape if Esau is afraid revenge, uh which turns out he's not. Um and and as part of the story as well, like that's that's probably the first time that that Jacob behaves with courage. Um and and he also essentially gives Esau his blessing back in the in the story of the of the meeting between the two brothers. Um but but uh just the the redemption i is is phrased and the the name Israel comes from the struggle with God. Um where where the redemption comes as a struggle in which the character, us, whatever, is um both redeemed and wounded. Uh come out with a limp but also courage and and some degree of integrity that that maybe has been lacking before. I don't know if that says anything here, but that's just what I was thinking about.

Bill 1:26:41

Before we uh go into the last question that I've got for the night, because we are running out of time, uh, one last sunburnt unicorn question for you. Um I'm trying to phrase this one well because I don't want to give away too much, and I'm hoping I won't with this one. Um There is a point near the end of the movie where uh uh Frankie finally gets to meet the Cactus King. Oh, you didn't see that part? Oh, yes. Oh, cool. Yeah. Not and and uh um realizes there there's the the Cactus King has a story as well um that is told by others throughout the entire movie, but Frankie comes face to face with the Cactus King and uh and the question that the Cactus King asks is what more could a ruler do? And it is in that moment that Frankie actually says, huh, could show compassion. And there's a whole bunch of other things that are kind of happening around this moment as well that I don't want to totally give away. But uh um but even the the story, the the Cactus King's story has an alternative that Frankie sees in the course of time through his own experience of of getting there and really this this build-up to a conflict that you're kind of waiting the whole movie to have happen. Um So uh there's a there's a redeeming quality, I think, in that as well. Um a liberating quality in that to see that uh this trajectory that has been kind of the course of certainly the the latter half of the story um and seems to be building um all the way through is almost short circuited or um a tangent is provided. Um I'm trying not to share anything more um because otherwise you won't need to actually watch the show. Um but can you tell us a bit about uh how the I I'm curious. I'm always curious when I get to uh talk to people and after I've I've been able to look at their work. Um this where did this story come from, if it came from a specific place, and where did that particular moment of this this realization that really um is so contrary to everything that Frankie has kind of been through up until that point um manifests in that that closing scene um that really is the the the redemptive moment of the story um as far as I can tell. Where did that come from, if you're willing to share?

Final Reflections And Blessing

Nick 1:29:08

Yeah, sure. Um Yeah, I'm I really try to focus in on a theme, which is the stories that I tell. And every time I do a new draft of this of the script, that theme gets more and more streamlined and simpler so that I can do my new draft and make sure that all the choices I make and the characters that are there and the choices they make are in line with that theme. Uh the theme for Sunburnt Unicorn is um uh man, I haven't been on the film festival circuit for a while, so I'm trying to remember now. Um you do not need to be special to be worthy of love. You deserve it as you are. So nice and and honed in there. Um and the thing is with most of my themes, you know, I was raised to be a preacher myself. So sometimes when I um do a story, I'm like, I'm preaching to people, I'm preaching this idea, but what I realize is what I'm actually doing is looking in a mirror and trying to remind myself of this lesson constantly. So that theme became a mantra I was just telling myself. Um and I still have to tell myself, even after the movie is done. I guess it's not as cathartic as I thought. Um so yeah, it was it was that theme. Um, and I and I would kind of think back on my life and think about all of the um, you know, the really driven, almost workaholic tendencies and the kind of work I would make and the striving for validation and for awards and for recognition, and I also want people to like me, and I would really try to unpack what the source of all that was, and it really was this need for validation, and the only way I could find it was to prove how special it was. Uh, you know, I'm not a regular dude, I'm a unicorn. Look at this thing in my head. Um so uh yeah, like at the end, kind of Frankie does have to um show that vulnerability and acknowledge that the same way I kind of have to when I talk about the movie. Um, and also this other tendency I have to be very compassionate to other human beings when they make mistakes, a lot of grace for them, but very little grace and compassion for myself when I make a mistake. So um also trying to embed that into the movie, you know. Like originally every creature he came upon was supposed to be a reflection of uh his dad, you know, and I was like, that's just a I'm mad at daddy movie. That's not good. Um and then when I redid the script the last time, I was like, what if every one of these insane creatures um was a reflection of him? And only at the end of the movie when he can acknowledge compassion for himself can he actually emerge out the other end of the maze, if you will. Hopefully it's not too spoilery, but yeah.

Bill 1:31:45

I think you threaded that line quite well, actually. Yeah. Thank you. So um we'll we'll stay with you. And you can you can totally like if you want to take the easy way out, you can say, I just gave my answer to this one because it would fit. Um But uh we're we're into last question time. So we're gonna kind of go, we'll start at this end and work our way down the table, and then I'll I'll close this off. Um what is the what is the one story that you would want to tell to everyone? And I actually really appreciate the uh um the the the I the like what you shared about uh you know this is actually the story that I would be telling myself in the mirror more than anything else, because that certainly um I saw a few heads nodding around the table even as you were saying it. Um and that's um it it's taken years of counseling to get to the point of actually you know having the counselor say you realize you do that every Sunday morning, right? That you you're preaching the message you want and need more than anybody else in the room, right? It's maybe a reason why all of us are at the stadium. It's quite possible. It's quite possible. Um but again, like my my constant uh you are enough just as you are is because I struggle with being enough just as I am, right? And uh and so um what is the story? What is the story you would tell the world or tell yourself in the the mirror? What is the hopefully the the hopeful story, the liberating story that you would want the world to know if you were uh given the opportunity to tell a story today? What would it be?

Nick 1:33:11

Um trying to think of like the stories that I'm working on now. Because now that I've fixed that part of myself with the first movie, uh the next ones are um very much this idea of like you do not have a long on this earth, but that doesn't mean you should fear death, it just means you should live well. Yeah. That's one of them.

Bill 1:33:36

There we go.

Nick 1:33:38

Dave?

Dave 1:33:45

I realized um quite a number of years ago that it was my supposedly atheist father who taught me how to worship. He's a zoologist, and he taught me how to worship um by passing on a sense of reverence for the the world that we're a part of, and how amazing and intricate and extravagant uh and interconnected it all is. Uh whether we were looking into a tide pool at the west coast or or uh uh trying to figure out what what kind of a tree or flower this was or or uh um he's a parasitologist, so talking about worms that are living inside creatures and stuff like that, that's that's what he did. Um but if if I guess I guess this is a this is a story that I I tell a lot in in preaching and and what I do is is we are really wonders in in the midst of a universe of wonders. And just yeah, wow. Go out and be wonderful.

Robin 1:35:05

I uh was on a bit of Henry Nowen kick uh two years ago. Um last year was my um Kate D. Camillo middle grade fiction kick. Um but the message that funny enough both uh had kind of been speaking over me this past year was um just the the story that you are beloved. And that comes up a lot in now and you can see that he's something he wrestled with his whole life. But um, in his own words, there's a beautiful line here where he says, You are sent in this world to believe yourself as God's beloved, and then to help your brothers and sisters that to know that they too are beloved sons and daughters of God who belong together. And I just remember thinking when I was in Bolivia last year in March, um, I remember being at lunch one time with one of our colleagues, and we were just talking about these horrendous rates of uh sexual violence, and I all I could think about was what if these men, whether it's here in Canada or whether it's in you know different parts of the world, instead of feeling like they needed to hurt, to harm, to steal, to ruin in order to somehow make themselves feel bigger, stronger, loved. What if they knew that they were beloved? Like would that heal so much of the hurt that they've poured out into the world around them? Um what if Frankie knew that he was special and didn't have to you know in the same way. I say I gotta go watch it. You haven't you haven't spoiled anything. If anything, it's in this like teaser for now. But the story, I think the story of of of especially when I think of so many insecure men who, whether it's through posturing or through violence, feel like they need to tear down around to make themselves higher. Man, what if they knew they were beloved? What if I, if I could speak to myself then, really knew that? And and would that give me the peace just to, you know, do things like this and not drive home and worry about what I said. And just delight in the fact that we could be together and share this with with those that are listening.

Ricardo 1:36:58

I'll I'll say I'll say two things.

Bill 1:37:01

No, you won't, you get one story. I am holding you to the rules, sir. You get one story.

Ricardo 1:37:06

There there is uh as a I like to choose the author that changed my life or my at least my perspective the most. And last year it was Aubrey Gordon, and she writes a lot of books about uh anti-fat bias and obesity. And her book, um, what we don't talk about when we talk about fat, and her second book is You Just Need to Lose Weight, and 19 Other Myths About Fat People. Uh, she doesn't talk about obesity as an epidemic, she talks about how anti-fat bias is riddled in every single aspect of the world we're in, where you can walk into a doctor with your skinny spouse and have the same medical conditions but received vastly different care as an example. And what she says is that society right now views fat people as um our bodies are our personal failure and a personal choice that we've made. And unless we can overcome that personal failure, we are not worthy of love or attention. And uh there's so much evidence to show that even things like body positivity is toxic and racist and anti-feminist in and of itself, and the BMI uh scale is is wildly flawed and based on on age-old um uh metrics of uh an average white um um average height white person. Uh and it it anyway, long story short, um I myself personally am find myself uh more criticized as a fat person than I am as a queer person, even within my own community. So I find myself as a second as a second rate person in the queer community because of my body, right? And as we all know, when we see gay people on TV, it's like the bikini in the Speedo with a really rip. Like we exist, fat people exist, but we exist on the margins, even in within the queer community. So I think a story that I would like to tell is not necessarily the liberation of different bodies and and fat bodies, but the end of a bias that that is really entrenched in um politics, it's entrenched in myth and uh slander about like, I mean, personally, my I go for my blood work every three months and it's perfectly fine. I'm just fat. That's all my doctor says. He does it not, I'm some medical marvel. It's not, it's just because there are different bodies everywhere, right? But the perception we have about the war on obesity and and and things like that, if we can change the lexicon just a bit and approach every individual individually, then perhaps healthy can take a different spin in society. Um, I exercise, I walk four kilometers a day with my dog, but people look at me and think that I just sit down and eat McDonald's all day. I do eat McDonald's on the couch, but so do skinny people. 90 million cheeseburgers! 90 million cheeseburgers, people, okay? I'm not eating them all myself.

Robin 1:39:52

I I eat it in the car, I pay cash so that there's no paper trail. Exactly. No, I know. Exactly. That's it. But I go there too, all the time.

Ricardo 1:40:00

One last sound bite. The story's been written right now in society with the way the world is right now. In late-stage capitalism, I think our story of redemption and our story that we can tell our future generations is happening right now. Um things will things will change in our world, and we can only buckle under so much pressure. I remember Joanne saying in a few podcasts ago, like after COVID, we all collectively wanted just a break, like uh to take a deep breath and it never happened. We went from COVID to the affordability crisis to now the dismantling of every DEI structure that we've had in the world. And I think something has to give, and I think the story is being written right now for all of us in a in a very unique and challenging way.

Bill 1:40:38

So I think as much as I am sitting here now questioning why does I bother to draw a line with you, sir, ever. Um thank you. He's gonna do it.

Robin 1:40:48

The appendices of the story is he's gonna do it anyway.

Closing And Call To Action

Bill 1:40:51

Um, but uh before we close tonight, I want to say a big thank you to Robin and Dave and Nick for being here tonight. This has been a fantastic conversation. I am so grateful for all of you being here at the table tonight. Um, it has been absolutely fantastic. And uh my message, as always, uh as I have alluded to, uh, doesn't matter what you look like, it doesn't matter what you believe, you are enough as you are. And uh you are special, each and every one of you, uh, but that is not why it is that you are worthy of love. Um you are worthy of love because you are beloved, uh, and that is enough. And so go out into the world and be the wonder that you are, uh, because you are a wonder in the midst of wonders. And uh, if we could all live into that a little bit more, this world would probably have a lot more liberating stories to tell. So uh whoever you are and wherever you are, know that you are beloved and you are enough and you are held in grace now and always. And thank you for listening, and we will see you again next month. As our time comes to a close this evening, I want to say thanks for coming with us on this one. Tonight was all about truth stories and sacred stories and the way that they shape our understanding of belonging and safety and power. We know that some stories expand our humanity while others reduce people to a trope and deny them dignity. Some of our stories will protect institutions and silence survivors, others will pull communities towards justice. Our call is to hold stories with open hands, to listen before we label, to tell the truth without turning it into a weapon, and to practice humility when we get it wrong and try to repair what we can. If you want to keep the conversation going, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can find past episodes and extra content through our website and our Patreon. We record live each month at McDougall United Church in Calgary, and you are welcome to join us in the room. Wherever you are tonight, hear this. You are beloved, you are special, and you are worthy of love because you are enough just as you are. Until next time, stay curious, stay kind, and keep telling the truth in ways that make room for life.