Episode 19 - Tainted Wellspring

Fear is having a moment, and it’s not subtle. When politics starts sorting people into “insiders” and “threats,” when belonging is defined by exclusion, and when discrimination shows up in the open, we have to find the courage to name what we’re seeing and decide how we’ll respond.

At the table with me are Scott Payne, a labor communicator and political strategist, and Francis Boakye, executive director of Action Dignity. We dig into what’s shifting in Alberta and beyond: the rise of nationalist language, the return of old bigotries in new packaging, and the way people are pushed to blame each other instead of questioning the systems that profit from division. We talk about newcomers being scapegoated, the difference between patriotism and nationalism, and why Ubuntu “I am because we are” is more than a philosophy; it’s a survival truth.

We also get personal about isolation, social media perfection, and the quiet ways “polite” bigotry and Christian nationalism can reshape churches and public life. Then we pivot to what actually helps: humility, authenticity, servant leadership, and small groups of people who refuse to hand fear the final word. If you’ve been wondering how to push back without writing people off, or how to rebuild a sense of agency when everything feels rigged, this conversation is for you.

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Transcript

Unedited Conversation And The Stakes

Bill 0:08

Folks here at Prepare to Drown, we take pride in the fact that we never edit our conversations. It's always unscripted, it's never polished, it's always just a real conversation with real people trying to make sense of something that doesn't have easy answers. This episode is going to be no exception to that rule. You're going to agree with parts of it, and they're going to be parts that you might not. And all we want to invite you to do as we talk tonight about the state of our world and our leadership is to just notice what it is that stays with you and what it is that challenges you. Because whatever you feel yourself reacting to is usually worth paying attention to. I'm Bill Weaver, and this is Prepared to Drown. Let's jump in.

Church And Politics Collide

Bill 0:50

If you are someone who likes your church and your politics sleeping in separate beds, then you are probably going to want to keep your arms and legs inside until this ride comes to a complete stop tonight. I promise we are not going to try to pick any fights here at this table this evening, but we are here to be honest about the world that we are living in, and that gets harder to do when we pretend that sometimes uh church and real life don't overlap.

Naming Fear And Fascism Patterns

Bill 1:14

Something in our world has shifted in the past several years. We are watching a rise in nationalist language. We are seeing fear showing up openly in our politics, and in some cases, we are seeing the re-emergence of ideas and positions that many of us had assumed been settled long in history. And I want to name that plainly because the words matter. When power starts to organize itself around fear, and when belonging starts to get defined by exclusion, and when certain groups are treated as threats rather than neighbors, history has given us a language for that. And one of the words that keeps coming up, whether we're comfortable with it or not, is fascism. But in the patterns and in the instincts that we see, not always in the most extreme forms, as we have heard of in history, not always with the symbols that we might recognize now, but certainly the patterns, the instincts, the way that that fear is being used to decide who belongs and who doesn't. We recognize something about our history returning to our present day. And depending on where you're standing, that might feel like something to be very, very afraid of. So tonight we are not going to panic. And we're not going to pretend that everything is fine either. We're going to pay some attention and we're going to talk about what we are actually seeing and why it is happening and what it means for us to respond in moments like this.

Discrimination Moves Into The Open

Bill 2:39

And I am really glad that I am not having this conversation on my own with you this evening. I have two guests with me here at the table tonight. Sitting furthest away from me, I've got Scott Payne. He's the Director of Communications and Senior Advisor of the President at UFCW Local 401. Prior to that, Scott was the Southern Alberta Director for the NDP caucus under Premier Rachel Knotley. So Scott has spent decades working at the intersection of labor and politics and public messaging, helping people understand how power actually works in the systems that shape their lives. So, Scott, I am very, very grateful to have you here tonight. Thanks for being here.

Scott 3:17

I'm very grateful to be here.

Bill 3:19

And then sitting right next to him, we've got Francis Boace. Did I say that right? Francis Boache, who is the executive director of Action Dignity, and whose work is rooted, all of his work is rooted in community, walking alongside people that are navigating everything from immigration to settlement, systemic barriers, rights and labor problems, everything that they might face here in Calgary and beyond. So I am really grateful to have you here as well tonight, Francis. Thanks for having me as well. So I want to start right at the beginning of this conversation with keeping it grounded. I'm going to ask each of you, and you can paper rock scissors to see who answers first, from where you sit in your work and in your life, in your communities that you serve, and in the conversation that you're a part of, what would you say is the clearest indicator that something about the society that we are living in right now is shifting?

Scott 4:14

I think we just rocked paper, scissored, and uh and Francis won. So I mean, from where I sit, the thing that um confronts me most viscerally is um how openly and consistently and pervasively uh you run into various forms of discrimination and bigotry, just sort of out in out in the open. Um for me as uh someone who I identifies as gender diverse and transgender, I'm a gender fluid uh individual. Um the degree of transphobia that I run into on a on a daily basis in this province, um, there are lots of other uh elements of privilege that I enjoy on a on a regular basis, but there is a there is a pervasive uh undercurrent for me of a feeling of uh like a lack of safety. Um and uh and that is, you know, I mean that's both new and old. Uh it's not uh, I don't think uh confined to discrimination based on gender expression. Um there are lots of sort of different intersections. You take a look at sort of some of the um uh some of the questions, uh the referenda questions that are coming up in in this province and just how blatantly racist those questions are. And that's out in the, not just out in the open, but that's that's something that is being spearheaded by an you know a democratically elected government. I think that um in a lot of ways, you know, for me in terms of my own uh involvement in politics, whether you look at that as sort of like on the like on the street in terms of uh various issues, or whether you look at it in terms of partisan politics looking to elect different people to governments, there is a period of time where that was unthinkable. Um and now um now not only is it thinkable, it like it feels like it's it's becoming more and more commonplace.

Bill 6:39

It's almost the mainstream dialogue now, right?

Scott 6:42

Well, it is the mainstream dialogue right now. It is the it is the duly elected government of the province that is that is pushing that dialogue. So I don't know how much you know how much more mainstream it gets than that. Now, whether that means that it is a majority of people that that think and feel that way is a different question. Um, but it's certainly more pervasive than it is ever, you know, then it feels like it's been in a long time.

Bill 7:09

What do you think, Francis?

Ubuntu And The Drift From Humanity

Francis 7:11

Yeah, I think um, you know, coming from a society where we believed in oneness. So in the African philosophy of Ubuntu, I am because we are. And I think your question around how society is shifting is really a question about the philosophical basis of our humanity. You know, we I am because you are, or I am because we are. And so that philosophical position has this element of conditions that bind us together, together as society. What we are seeing now is a shift in those conditions that the world is seeing today. So we have a world that is sorting us apart on the basis of so many elements. And those elements have become a categorization of human beings into those who are problems to be solved, and those who are to be feared, and those who are inferior, as opposed to society recognizing that we all are part of a bigger planet. When I was listening to the astronauts who just came down maybe two days ago, they talked about the Earth being like a spaceship where all of us belong. And right now, what we are seeing is really the introduction of fear. It is this authoritarian ideologies that are telling us that we are supposed to be separated and that we are not supposed to bind ourselves together to create a world that all of us can really thrive. And so the shifting of society we are seeing right now is a result of a drift from humanity to a sorting of people into categories for the sake of domination, unfortunately.

Bill 9:16

And again, this is not something that is new and yet it's new, right? Like I I worry sometimes that I romanticize. I think we're always kind of at risk of almost romanticizing our childhoods, I think, in some cases. But uh I seem to remember being in school when I was younger, and you would study uh politics in Alberta. And uh you especially if there was an election on, there would be a you know, go out and uh you know research the platform of you know each of the political parties, and there would be social issues of the day, and they would be social issues. They would not be problems of people, they would be they would be social issues of the day, and you could at least trust that uh you know there would be uh a party line for here's how you're going to solve um affordability, whether it's the NDP, the the liberals, the the con there was no UCP at the time, but the the Conservative Party of the day. Um, and you could trust that if nothing else, there would be whether you agreed with their answer as to how you got there, um, there would be a different uh roadmap to here's how we're gonna

Othering Newcomers And Patriotism

Bill 10:16

solve these social problems, right? Um and none of that seems to happen anymore, realistically, right? There is no um, there isn't even any agreement anymore on what the the the actual problems are, because uh we have we have turned it into uh kind of a fear-based um uh model of uh if you want to solve the problem, here's the here's the group you need to deal with rather than the the the social issue that is is the problem, right? So um so who do you think is most keenly feeling that right now, purely here in our society? I'm I I try to work really hard at not driving us south of the border. I feel like we're gonna have a a hard time doing that with this particular conversation today, but I don't think we need to look at Trump and the Trump administration, because we we see it at work right here in in Alberta, uh again, especially like you said, Scott, with uh the launch of this referendum now that will be happening in October, right? Um certainly. And so much of the discussion, even around uh the legislations that have been passed under this government up until this point that are overtly targeting, like overtly targeting individual groups of people um to their detriment, um, built on the backs of everybody else feeling like somehow they are safer for it or better served by it. Um so who do you think is most keenly feeling it here in Alberta right now, from your vantage point?

Francis 11:49

I think from from from our position, I think um as a newcomer to Canada, I think um I've been in Caribbean for the past three to five years and the the the feeling of just being different has been persistent in all these years. And anytime we have a situation like this, I think there is this whole scapegoating that goes on that certain people are picked on as the problems of society, and we know it is not true, but that becomes a narrative that is being told. And because we are so most of our loyalties are so unexamined, we normally will cling on to those pieces and think it is true. And so we uh discard lived experiences of people who are being impacted by policies that are not just or who are being impacted by decisions that are being made because those making the decisions do not really um go through the circumstances or the situations that these individuals are going through. And so for for me and for the new Khmer community, I think um we are mostly impacted by um the shifting in societal conditions because you know the word patriotism, patriots, is really um love for the fatherland, love um love for the motherland, love for the country. It is very different from nationalism. So when I'm sitting here and I'm part of Canada, it is my love for Canada that brought me here. And therefore, I'm a patriot of Canada versus a nationalist position that is not you, we are separating you from who we are. You are not part of this land, you are different. And so my contributions to the nation is diminished because I am not being treated as part of the society. So we are being impacted disproportionately in this particular position that I'm putting it. Secondly, we also understand that even within this positioning, we have segments of people who are at the at the receiving end of some of these um societal injustices. Like we have lots of um single mothers from different parts of the world who are trying to make it work, who are just trying to make things work, and they are not having that kind of opportunity. And we have people who may not be fluent in English who are struggling, but are here contributing to our society. So at the end of the day, we begin to see that there are certain people who are being impacted and disproportionately by these shifting conditions that sometimes um are not necessary because again, going back to our philosophy, that we are all one, we are trying to work together to build a better and just society.

Scott 14:59

Yeah, I think

Isolation And Weaponized Individualism

Scott 15:00

um I think that Francis is right. Like right now, in this moment, um, I think there are like there are a couple of words that I would tack on to that we're also not often not comfortable saying or talking about, uh, that I would tack on to sort of fascism, which is that um it's not just fascism, but it's like it's white nationalist fascism, right? That there is that there is there is a particular ideology, there is a particular um flavor to this fascism uh and to this authoritarianism. Um that uh I think when you talk about, you know, we thought that there were ideas, we thought that there were debates that we had left in the past, and the idea that you would see a rise in you know, in white nationalism, not just in Alberta, but across the world, we sort of like the the um I think the consensus or the commonly held belief that many people have is well we like we had that fight, we had that debate, didn't we settle that issue? Um and that I think the the uncomfortable truth that we need to grapple with is yes and no. That those ideas, those uh those biases, those bigotries, um they're like they're all old and new in in like the in the way that you were describing, where like I think we would like the when we're romanticizing this discussion, we think we beat that. That went away, that was gone. And I think for a lot of people, that's not true. Correct.

Bill 16:54

Yeah.

Scott 16:55

That you know, maybe not as prevalent, maybe not as loud, maybe not as in your face as when we, you know, when we think about sort of our our historical notions of white nationalism and fascism and Nazism, and that's sort of where where our heads tend to go. Um but those ideas, those beliefs, to the degree that they went underground or they were not quite as above ground as they were before, they never went away anywhere. And there is a um there's a complacency, I think, that uh that we're now being invited and forced at the same time to take a look at around what are some of the other ways that those ideas have played out. And maybe they maybe I didn't experience it, maybe you didn't experience it, maybe others didn't experience, but there are people who definitely experienced that bigotry and that discrimination uh in uh a myriad of ways in their in their everyday life. And what we're grappling with now is a resurgence of something that we would like to believe we beat, we would like to believe these issues were settled, uh, but we did not, in fact, get that debate, that discussion across the finish line. If it ever gets across the finish line.

Bill 18:22

If it ever does, yeah. Right. And I mean, in my experience in the church, there have been, I mean, I've I've been part of some very uh difficult conversations where you go, like, I I thought we figured that out. I th like I thought this was this was old news, and people go, like, it was not as figured out as you thought it was to begin with. Absolutely. Um like you may it may have it may have like exited your worldview and it may have exited kind of your context and and and your you know your day-to-day, but I'm still living it every single day.

Scott 18:48

Just because just because you have you haven't experienced it, doesn't mean that the experience isn't there and isn't being had by by folks who are being I mean the other thing that I would pick up on that Francis mentioned is like anybody who feels other, like there is a real othering that is happening right now. And um and what occurs to me is how like fear is a big part of how these ideas are being spread. But I would say it's like fear and isolation, yes, and people's feeling of isolation and the degree to which, and this really touches on um what you were mentioning, Francis, around like you know, I am because you are, that sense of of oneness, that sense of togetherness in like uh in contemporary society and something that we're dealing with right now, fundamentally fractured. People feel we are, you know, is the the um the classic, or not classic, but you know, uh prevalent thing that I hear people say, we're more connected than ever and more isolated than we have ever been.

Bill 20:01

That might actually be the tagline for next month's episode. Yeah. Um

Leaders Reflect Society And Power

Bill 20:09

I remember uh even when I even I was much younger, lamenting uh in papers in university and whatever, that the the greatest tragedy was the day that we elevated the individual as being the pinnacle of everything, right? That your your individualism, your um, you know, your indestructible self um transcends everything else around you, right? That um you cannot superimpose an idea on anyone outside of your own self, but you are not required to um subject yourself to anything other than what you believe is your, you know, your your truth, right? There is no there is no larger truth that is only your truth, and everybody has their own truth, and all of these truths are equal in in uh in uh clarity and purpose and uh discipline used to achieve them, right? And uh you would sit in courses in univers I would sit in courses in university and even in seminary where we would just argue about this. Um, like uh not all truths actually lead to the same outcome. Not all truths are actually as true, especially if they are designed to um you know reduce or diminish or deny somebody their humanity, their dignity. Um, and yet we would say it is it is not our place to, you know, challenge people on their their own individual and and just that idea that like the individual um is the pinnacle of everything. Um and and struggling constantly with this idea, like sometimes you need to be able to say you're wrong. Um and and you you need to like own your wrongness on this one, right? Um so so yeah, I mean, I I I have never been able to figure out where the um where the momentum came from that has actually kind of led to this division that we now this fracture. Society that we live in now, this brokenness, this chasm that seems to exist between all of us, right? If if I am because we are, um, something has come in to say, no, that's not actually the case, right? There's a there's been a movement that is designed to uh from the get-go to to separate us and isolate us and um tell you that like it's it's you against everything, right? And all of us, it is we are all against everything, right? And uh where do you think that shift came from? Where do you think that that fear, that momentum, what like what's driving that?

Francis 22:38

I think that part of it is really what you alluded to. I think there's a degree of subjectivity that we have embraced, and that is making it a little bit hard for us to say something is wrong. But society has to be guided by objectivity. And then we'll go into the philosophical arguments. What is objectivity? All kinds of things that are coming in to confuse all of us. But that ties with to our values. You know, each of us societies we have values and we as individuals have values. What is happening, in my opinion, is that um in hard times like this, in shifting times like this, the question then becomes am I able to hold on to my values in such shifting conditions or circumstances? And the answer is no. Because most of us will drift into what is much more popular, what is much more acceptable, versus being ready to say, even though this is in my uh interest or this really supports my position, it is not who

Intermission And The Central Question

Francis 23:44

we are. But what you are seeing today is not that we all want to be part of what is popular or what is accepted and what has become the majority. And this is driving all of us into our own cocoons. You know, we are all bubbled up into something that is a representation or a reflection of who we think we are and the position of truth we think we hold. So our society is becoming very, very complex. We cannot call a spade a spade anymore. And so all of us are afraid. And I have to say, I am afraid of so many things. Because where I came from, originally from Ghana, we like you know, growing up, you'll be told that, you know, um you have to respect people. It wasn't a subjective position, it is something that you are taught to respect people. So you grew up with that kind of um understanding. It's not like oh you can or you can't. So we we knew that was a clear um position. We were brought up. But you go to different places and then not tell, well, it's it's not it's not really necessary. You know, we can do things differently, you can just talk to anyone anyhow, and that is okay, it's acceptable. And now we've all gone into that um rabbit hole of just accepting everything that is happening, and until we begin to identify that there are certain things in our society when it comes to issues of justice, issues of fairness, issues of equity, that we should be able to sit and say, this is not right. And then get people to understand why it is not right because of the impact that it is having on different people in our societies.

Scott 25:33

Yeah, I mean, I I I think that there has been uh a very conscious and intentional movement towards the What I would actually describe as weaponizing individualism and weaponizing uh subjectivity and weaponizing the notion of plurality and a plurality of perspectives so that you actually fracture it, you take a plurality of perspectives and the notion of pluralism, and that people come from different perspectives and different lived experiences and have different understandings and different experiences of the world. And instead of creating uh a common space wherein all of those perspectives, all of those experiences, all of those understandings and backgrounds and ideas can be shared and discussed and uh and create something that is larger, larger than the whole. Instead, there I think that there has been a very conscious effort to fracture and individualize and atomize people uh in a way that um you know does does make you feel isolated, fearful, and vulnerable. And and people who are isolated and fearful and vulnerable are much easier to manipulate. And people in power, um when they are able to isolate and atomize people and make them fearful and make them fearful of each other as opposed to fearful of things that are being um forced upon them, ideas, structures, um, different different levers of power uh that exist not just in government, but it you know exist in terms of uh you know our our political realities, our social realities, our economic realities, uh, and uh the the you know the increasing gap between haves and have nots, the erosion of this notion of a middle class, and how increasingly people are are struggling to get by in a variety of different ways, you know, that it is more difficult than ever just to make a living and put food on the table and keep a keep a roof over your head. Well, when all of us are struggling to get by, um, that means that those the resources that we're having a hard time, the money, let's you know, be uh you know in upfront that we're having a hard time gathering. Well, that's going somewhere else. That's going towards, you know, there's uh you know the um this uh increasingly razor-thin um you know portion of society and portion of the world that that has control over the those resources that is hoarding that money. We're about to have the world's first trillionaire in Elon Musk.

Francis 28:41

No.

Scott 28:41

He's not there yet, but he's on track to be there. I mean, think about that. Trillionaire. Somebody who will have a trillion dollars in the world, like you couldn't, even if you were trying to spend all of that in a lifetime, almost. Uh, and the idea that you have single mothers who are trying to make it work and have uh a system that has been set up to ensure that their efforts to try and make it work are as difficult as they possibly can be. And other people in the world who have more money than they could possibly ever contemplate spending, that doesn't happen by accident. That is not just like a oh well, that's like that's the market playing out. That is uh the outcome of a very concerted and intentional effort to try and create a more divided world so that those in power can remain in power and can accumulate power, accumulate wealth, uh, and uh and ensure that they're able to do whatever it is that they want to do. And I think you can see that playing, certainly see it playing out. I I went global rather than going south, although I did mention somebody south of the south of the border. It's all good. Uh but but like I, you know, I think that you can see that playing out in Alberta as well.

Bill 30:24

Absolutely.

Scott 30:24

You know, that that wealth gap, uh, that you know, when we are when we are divided and the and we exist in a system that further divides us and reinforces our isolation and our division, people that are creating those uh those dynamics and those those systems benefit from that. And they know what they're doing, um and they're doing it very intentionally.

Bill 30:52

Yeah, it was uh high fitz, I think, and I I always end up coming back to Hyfitz as much as I try not to, but uh adaptive leadership would talk about the uh the idea that there is no such thing as a broken system, right? So uh on one on one level, uh, if you are struggling to make ends meet, you hear every day the system is broken. Here's how we're going to fix it for you. If you only agree that uh, you know, to say yes to this referendum question about reducing immigration, because that is that is the problem that is, you know, causing you to not uh be able to thrive as much as you believe you are intended to in this system, right? Um, but that system is not the system is not actually broken. It telling you it's broken is exactly what the system is designed to do so that you go, hey, the problem is immigration, not um this entire structure that is designed to make sure that welfare problem is and so so again, like I I guess for me, and we'll start this and then I'm aware that we need to go for intermissions. So we'll hit broad strokes for now and then uh we'll come back to the specifics after. Um I I will confess that I struggle a lot of the time because I I talk with a lot of folks across a lot of perspectives, just in my in my work uh as a as a minister. Um and more often than not, what you find are the people who are most dug in on this ideology um are the ones who are struggling just as much as anybody else. And what they have been told is like subscribe to this idea, help us ram it through. Um, and your your benefit, your safety, your stability, your your thriving is on the problem will be dealt with, uh, your life will be better for it, right? Um and so how how do we respond to all of this without writing them off in the process, right? Because in a lot of cases, it still comes back to a people are struggling. Um and in the midst of the struggle, the the as Francis was saying, right? Like we we know the values we would hold if we had if we were able to hold them. Like we, I believe people are inherently uh committed to the welfare of others by and large until they feel as though it's a survival thing more than anything, right? Um and so how do we how do we uh deal with this? How do we at least address this or recognize this or respond to this without writing them off in the process, right? That I think is the challenge.

Francis 33:17

Yeah, and I think one of the pieces that normally comes to mind when I'm talking about some of these things is the fact that you know sometimes we talk about our political leaders, but political leaders are products of our society. And that means that who we are is reflected in political leadership. And so it is important for us to really question um the larger society and ask ourselves how are we producing people to lead us? How are we raising our future leaders to lead us? Because in every country, normally when I write about some of these things, in every country we have political leaders who are a direct reflection of how the society is organized. And it begins from our families. Where are we coming from? How were we raised? And what values do we possess to be in a situation where we are really people of integrity and are here in a selfless way to support the building of society. So this dichotomy between political leaders and us has to be blurred. And the reason is if we give power to certain groups of people as political elites, and we are just the working class, then that becomes a problem. Like what happened in Russia before the revolution. So we have the bourgeoisies and we have the working class. But that has to be blurred because we also have power as people, and we need to be able to deploy that power in whatever way we choose to, so that in the end, there is a correlation between we who are being governed and those who are governing us. And that is very important because once we begin to get out of that thinking, then we also are taking power to exercise it. The second point is really the point you made. We normally talk about broken systems, but systems are put in place for a reason, and they are done in a way to really cater for certain people who are the insiders and those who are outsiders. So the system is never broken, it has been designed that way so that society can be fractured, fragmented, and then once we know that um umce we are divided, we are in for this kind of um control by external forces. And so historically, you begin to see these patterns in almost every country where power has been designed this way, and we have accepted the fact that power should belong to certain people, versus we saying to ourselves we have power to do something. Look at democracy. I have so many questions around democratic um dispensations, because we say democratically we are electing people, and in the end, we realize that those elections are really not real reflections of what democracy should look like. And then we begin to complain that we are the very people who do the elections. And to your question, so how are we being curated or how are we being driven into those parts? And how what can we do in response? This is something that I think about a lot, even though I don't have responses, but it is something to think about in those lines as we have this conversation today.

Bill 36:58

So are you saying you don't have an answer to that question? Because I feel like this is gonna be a really short second half.

Scott 37:04

Uh well, but I like I do we need to break for interrupting.

Bill 37:08

Oh, I want to hear what you have to say first, actually, and then we'll break.

Scott 37:10

Yeah, no, I mean, I like I that I mean I love everything that you just said. Um in particular, that we would even ask ourselves the question: how are we producing these leaders? How are we producing, contributing to the the factors that are creating this sort of sense? And uh I mean what that you know I in I think that a lot of people don't see that as a valid question these days because there is the belief that, well, that like I don't have power, I don't have the ability to impact those dynamics. That like that is not for me. There's this certain class of people who get to make those decisions, and that's not me. And that's a lot a lot easier to do again when we're all isolated. But when people get together and start talking about and asking each other those questions and thinking through these things and sharing different experiences, suddenly we start to actually feel that. Well, hold on a second. How are we contributing to these things? What could we do? Me on my own, it's hard for me to think about how do I these, I mean, these are daunting questions, they're overwhelming questions and they're paralyzing questions on your own. But when you get together with groups of people like this, you feel less alone, you start to feel more empowered. And you say, well, maybe me on my own. Uh, I don't have a clear idea about how I would address these things. But us together, when we uh feel that sense of connection, when we feel that sense of community, when we share our ideas, when we share our time and our talents and our treasure and come together, these things feel less daunting. And that power that we've been led to believe we do not have starts to re-emerge. And I think there's, I mean, there's a very, for me, very clear connection there. That's why we've been isolated. Because when we do get together, we do become, we do start to feel more empowered. And we do start to feel like these are conditions that we can in fact change. And we challenge these ideas uh that have been embedded in the very way that we think about our place in society.

Bill 39:50

So we are going to break there for now, uh and we are going to take an intermission. And when we come back, perhaps we will actually start with the daunting question of how is it that we are producing uh this kind of leadership? And maybe we'll start there and see if we might begin to at least discern some response uh that we might offer as a result of that. But for now, we are going to take an intermission and we will be right back. And we are back, and we are going to jump right back into it where we left off because right before the intermission, we were talking about the idea that our political leaders are often a reflection of our society and the values that we uh that we are instilling in our leadership. And so we want to ask the question of what it is about our society right now, or our society leading up to this moment, uh, that

Mobilizing Community And Small Beginnings

Bill 40:45

has led to producing leadership such as this that we are seeing in our world today, that is leaning into fear and exclusion and strong lines around belonging and who no longer belongs. So let's start with that question. Who wants to try to take it first? What conditions and pressures and stories that we're telling are producing the kind of leadership that we are seeing in our world today?

Scott 41:09

You know what I mean? I feel like I've already done enough talking.

Bill 41:13

You lost the first round and the second round of paper, rock, scissors. Just lucky that way.

Scott 41:18

I mean, I think I think that we we talked like the first half of our conversation was really talking about the conditions. When I mean when you have uh when you have a society uh that you know that is uh divided and fearful and uh and uh seeking answers to the challenges that they are facing by blaming one another, those are conditions that are pretty ripe for uh producing leadership and producing political movements that um will traffic in fear and hatred and you know, blaming blaming other people. Um and so the things that we see all around, I mean, to some degree it's like it is surprising because you know, we talked about how like if you know some of the things that we're grappling with, it felt like these were things that were in the rearview mirror. But then if we look around at the challenges uh that are facing us and sort of the the the tone and tenor of society these days, is it is it really all that surprising given given how isolated we all feel, given how fearful we all feel, given how much how easy, how much easier it feels like blaming each other has has become that that would be reflected in our political leadership, that that would be you know reflected in political movements that are uh that are gaining traction uh these days. Um so I mean the question in my mind is what do we do about it?

Bill 43:00

See, so I'm wondering, and and uh feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong because it happens all the time on this podcast. Um because we I I would say that I hear I hear both voices typically, you know, in the discourse, right? So I will hear a lot of the voices that we've talked about, right? These, these, uh, these fearful, isolating, um, unaccountable, uh hate-mongering kind of voices, but we also hear the voices of people who oppose this, right? Who are calling for accountability, calling for um stronger work towards uh unifying and looking out for people and carrying one another and um and resisting these movements of division and isolation and and and fear and othering. Um, but they don't seem to gain the same uh like like if those voices are a part of the conversation as well, I I'm not seeing that same kind of uh leadership perhaps developed uh in our society. And part of me, maybe I'm naive, wants to believe that that is actually the majority. Majority voice, um, maybe just not the loudest voice in the room. Does that make sense? Like um I I I suppose in October in Alberta we'll find out whether or not I'm wrong. Um but yeah, I mean, do we honestly think that one like that that there is a clear majority of hatred at this point? Because it feels like it's just the loudest voice, not the largest.

Francis 44:28

Yeah. It could be the loudest and not the majority. I think again it goes back to um how are we producing political leaders or how are we producing leaders in general. And if you look at some of the um, it's just like you know, the analogy I'm gonna give you is really looking at um a farm, you know, because we have conditions that will help produce healthy crops. And the same is it with politics or with our society. If we have conditions that are good enough to produce the best of the best, then we stand a very good chance of creating um a healthier community with healthier leadership and healthier relationships. But I think if you take the conditions I'm talking about, take our institutions, whether it is political institutions, economic institutions, religious institutions, educational institutions, all these institutions have been grappling with what it means to really produce the best of the very best. And so the assignments in these institutions have become much more narrow in terms of how we see the world. So we are becoming much more introvert introverted in terms of how we are seeing the world versus seeing the broader global picture and then inserting ourselves as players, not becoming a playground for things to happen. And so we are producing people who are fearful, like to your point. There's fear. But the question is how did we arrive at this state of human fear? Why? Because in the past we have not questioned some of the actions and inactions and reactions of people in political leadership. And we as the government have never been able to really sit down to really also ask ourselves how are we contributing to producing the kind of people we are producing in our world today to lead us? And it's not it's not just in politics, it's in corporations, it's in institutions, it's in organizations. We've seen these kinds of things being replicated. So the question then becomes what do we do? I think we need to be able to organize our moral and political passions and begin to, to your point, think about how are we mobilizing ourselves? Because the loudest voices are not the majority, yet they are the dominant. That means that there's a silenced uh group of people, maybe the majority, who are not really asking those critical questions. In fact, we've been made to be less critical in our thinking. With all those things that are around us today, we are not. And that goes that that this is producing a form of symbolism and practicality that we have to really be very, very scary of. In fact, in his book Tyranny, I think Tim Snyder said something, he said that today's symbolism will become tomorrow's realities. And that is what we are facing. What we are facing today will be tomorrow's realities. And so we need to be able to sit down and ask ourselves how are we managing the larger group that has been silenced by political or economic forces? And this for me will be a way of going back to how we produce people in general, and then out of these people, those who become our leaders at a political, economic, organizational, institutional, corporation levels. It's not just political.

Bill 48:17

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you you said before the break, Scott, uh you you wanted to add some words, right? So uh we were talking about fascism and nationalism, and you said, like, let's add white nationalism, right? And um certainly I would even say uh from sort of my vantage point, uh my perspective, my vocation, uh, white Christian nationalism, right? Has certainly uh especially, again, I'll do it, south of the border, um, has become uh a very tangible reality that we see a very specific kind of messaging that comes out of it, but that gains so much momentum so quickly because of um, you know, who it targets and what it tells them about themselves and their place in the world, and what it tells them about everybody who's not like them and their place in the world as well, right? And binds it not just to their whiteness, but to uh, you know, their their Christianity, the or the Christian narrative, right, in a destructive way, right? And um, for me, um, the reason why I always question majority versus loudest voice is because even when we started this little church basement podcast here, you know, a a little over a year ago, um, it was really around the simple idea that like the the voices of um kind of that white Christian nationalist majority, you know, hate mongering um kind of kind of stuff has a big enough budget uh that it can pretty much deliver whatever message it wants to deliver wherever it wants to deliver it, with a whole lot of pyrotechnics and acrobatics to go with it. And it's a it's an engaging um message because it's so glitzy. And there needs to just be another voice out there somewhere, um, even if it's difficult to find that says, like, you are enough and you are loved and uh and you belong purely as you are, and your your dignity and your value and your worth are not bound to somebody else um telling you your place in the world, right? So um so yeah, I mean, like how do we then mobilize? And maybe I need to ask the union guy this before we go, you know, any further. Like, how do you how do you mobilize this in a way that you know encourages people to hear something different than the the loudest voice in the room?

Scott 50:30

Um I think I think that um so I want to touch on something and then I'm gonna run in the other direction because like because I worry that it'll take us down a particular path that will take over that could take over the conversation. I think we do ourselves a disservice by assuming that the only people that are reinforcing this system are the most obvious ones, are the big, ugly Ford F150 driving, you know, Confederate flag waving testicles on the trailer hitch. Yeah, yeah. Obviously racist folks that like that, that's that's the only obvious uh, you know, sort of indicator, but like that is in fact the thing edge of the wedge. And that like there's a there the same way that we talked about some of these uh you know, some of these ideas and some of these these experiences may have disappeared from our you know, our lived experience, our lives, but they didn't disappear. Um, the most obvious versions of these are not the only versions, are not the only contributing factors. And oftentimes sort of the the bigotry and the hate and the fear that uh that we need to deal with is dressed up in much more polite, much more acceptable, much more palatable versions. Um and that we like there is introspection that we have to do ourselves about what are some of the like what is some of the more subtle ways that this plays out in the way that we think and we act, and that because look, again, um these governments are democratically elected. Now, the systems by which they get democratically elected are imperfect, right? First past the post systems are you're fundamentally flawed. Um and there are other ways of other ways of doing things, but nonetheless, they are they are elected. People do have to go out and and vote for them. And not all of them have truck nuts. You know, not all of them fly Confederate flags, right? And not even most of them do. Um but they wouldn't necessarily admit to it. Um and they won't necessarily come out and and say some of the things that are driving uh the way that they wind up voting for uh for these sorts of governments, these sorts of leaders, these sorts of political movements. But how do you mobilize against it? Because I agree that there are there are folks uh out there who want to see things change. Um and I was having a conversation during the break saying that some of the most powerful movements, certainly in Canada, um, but I would argue across the world, start in in very humble beginnings. You know, uh Tommy Douglas, a prairie populist, started organizing in church basements, right? Amongst groups of people who decided they wanted to come out and have a conversation. And and uh humble beginnings do not necessarily equate to humble endings. Uh and every single conversation, every single connection, every single little spark of resistance to that makes a difference. And sometimes we discount that, right? We we count ourselves out. Um, we we uh believe that we don't have a place to play. You know, me having a conversation with my neighbor isn't gonna make a difference. Because the folks that we're up against are so big and so powerful and so rich and you know have all this stuff, we could never compete with that. Um you know, we we deal ourselves out of the game. Uh, and by dealing ourselves out of the game, we never stand a chance in shifting things in the first place. So every little uh opportunity to connect with people and try and build community that is more inclusive, that is more empowering, that is more loving, uh, and that uh and that uh leads people to believe in their own sense of self-worth and their own sense of shared agency in creating the kind of world that they want to see matters. Every single one. Don't discount any of it. Um, because if you discount any of it, you discount all of it, and we automatically lose.

Bill 55:08

I preached on Easter Sunday, I think it was Wayne Gretzky, right? Uh you miss 100% of the shots you don't take as uh as the model for hope, right? Yeah. So what do you think, Francis?

Francis 55:21

Yeah, I think yeah, I think talking about introspection, I think um it is important for us to at least look in inside us.

Christian Nationalism And Belonging

Francis 55:30

And then how we see ourselves also gives us um a kind of indication of how we see other people. Because um, Rick, you you talked about um the white Christian nationalist. And I think if you take, for instance, um even in Canada, I think we are veering off into a situation where this expression of um Christian nationalism is becoming um pervasive in our churches. And it goes to the degree of becoming an extension of foreign foreign policy as it has become in the South. And that is a very dangerous position for anyone, because the power that is wielded in those circles are such that they can really determine the political direction of a country, and that also means that because it's a nationalist movement, it also divides, it becomes a dividing line amongst people. And unfortunately, that is not Christianity in the sense that this is not what the gospels stand for. Absolutely, the oneness, the love for each other is being trampled upon, and it has become a form of cultural Christianity where people are confusing culture with what the gospels are saying. And so all of us, I mean, we have struggled in churches. Like my family, we struggle in churches, and because that sense of belonging we're talking about is not there because you are different. But that is supposed to be the place where I feel that sense of connection to people, that sense of authenticity that I can be myself. And so we are seeing this progression of um the extension of foreign policy by the white, not even just the white, just the Christian nationalist today. And in fact, I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm careful now because at a point it is extending into um kind of a militant position as well, which we are seeing as well. So what that begs, the question it begs now is how are we supposed to introspectively look into ourselves and ask ourselves, are we really standing for the truth? Or are we becoming part of not a militant group, but are we becoming part of a group that has been nationalist in nature and therefore creating a divide amongst people rather than bringing us together. I think this is what we are experiencing now, and it is going to extend to different parts of the world, and once that becomes globalized, then we are in a very tough situation of how we get out of that.

Bill 58:44

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the the idea of the gospel is at its core really is that Jesus' entire life and ministry is about restoring people to community with one another, right? Um not finding ways to um section off the table, right? Inviting everybody to the table and restoring everybody to this this family of God. Um the the world over. And and so certainly um I think I think there are there are certainly progressive movements of the church, um, and and progressive is a word that I sometimes struggle with, but we'll use it here for now because it's the word that I think is identifiable. Um progressive movements of the church um would inherently kind of recognize like this is a um, dare I say, false gospel that is being um kind of preached in in some of these other these other uh expressions of the Christian tradition. And at the same time, um, you know, I I still always come back to a prophet I had that was very influential when I was in seminary, who would say that every single expression of the church is equally distance from is equally distant from the kingdom of God. Um if you haven't found out where it is that you're falling short yet, just wait. It'll it'll come, right? So um but again, this idea that uh um that you could encounter a a Christian community uh in a way that you walk in feeling like you're other and leave feeling like you're other and nothing has shifted would be almost antithetical to the entire notion of of Jesus the Christ, right? Um and so um so so yeah, I mean, how do we uh I mean you asked the question, you you're asking the questions, Francis, and do you have an answer? How do we look introspectively at ourselves? Like how do we how do we encourage people to uh look inward to begin with? And and not from a place of um like self-flagellation or uh hopelessness, right? Because again, it can be a very hopeless thing to to look inward and and see the the work ahead, uh as much as looking at the the you know the world around you and going, like, how am I supposed to to manage this, right? So, what really is the way that we uh invite people um if every spark you know has the potential to catch fire, if if every shot matters, um how do we in how do we inspire that in people? How do we invite that kind of introspection at the individual or at the community level?

Humility And Authentic Shared Spaces

Francis 1:01:02

Yeah, I think for me it begins with humility. Um I think the word ministry is really servant. And we see leaders who are exuding or exhibiting um the very opposite of being a servant. And so that becomes very hard for us to really think about how do we serve in a way that is consistent with what the ministry, the word ministry means. So all of us today are in this in this frightful positions. Looking introspectively is really, for me, it's an important condition, an important part of the human growth. We have to be able to look inside ourselves and say, This is who I am using the plumb line. And then begin to understand what I need to do to become a better human being. We are not finding that today because all of us have become so perfect in our own little world. Yes, that's it. The individual is the pinnacle, right? Exactly. That we can't even think of ourselves as imperfect. I always tell my kids I am very, very imperfect. I have lots of flaws, and that is the reason why I need to look into myself and ask myself those hard questions. How do I emerge to become a better person? How do I eschew pride and invite humility? How do I allow the word ministry to be a servant to people? How do I let that become a practical piece of my life so that in the end, in all my imperfections, I'm still a servant. I can allow myself to be to be to be approached, to be to be talked to, and then to grow. But we don't find that in our world today. The world in this world you are supposed to show yourself as strong because we define weakness as even humility is a weakness.

Bill 1:03:09

There's a vulnerability to it, right? Yes, yes, yeah.

Francis 1:03:11

Yes. Humility is even a weakness today. But I know that to be humble is to be a strong person because you're able to accept that you are a package of flaws, but ready to really change as a result. That would be my position on your question.

Scott 1:03:33

Yeah, I mean, like I pick up very much on this idea that like we're all supposed to be perfect. And I think earlier to when we talked about how we're more connected than ever and more isolated than ever. And if we think about the ways in which we're connected, it really does reinforce this idea of perfection. Life is you, you like social media and the sort of like the this digital means of connection. Um, again, these platforms, um, these algorithms pick up on certain uh content and certain uh expressions of who we are. And they and it really does reinforce this idea that when I put myself out there, I'm putting myself out there to show how perfect I am, how great my life is, how wonderful things are, all these things that I've got and these clothes that I've bought. Uh, and yet we all struggle, right? We all all of us you know have challenges. And uh and I think deeply uh you know, on a on a you know, this is the water in which we swim, and yet on a very deep level, we just want to be able to show up as who we are authentically in a space of love and acceptance. And that doesn't necessarily love and acceptance doesn't necessarily mean that we aren't challenged and that we aren't uh invited and encouraged and in some cases pushed to be better, to be introspective, to grow as human beings. Um, how do we show up introspectively? Is I, you know, I think creating those spaces, those shared spaces, uh that are where we can show up warts and all and be accepted for who we are, that we are all works in progress, uh, and that we are all struggling through a variety of challenges, questions, insecurities, uh, you know, victories and uh and and defeats, but that we can do that together in a truly shared space, um, creating those spaces. And I think this church is a really great example of that. I've experienced that firsthand as somebody who at the age of 19 rejected Christianity, rejected the church, said, I'm done, I'm I have. I don't want to have anything to do with this. To this, uh, well, not maybe to this day, but until relatively recently, was very hesitant about setting uh setting uh foot in a church. And then the first time that I came to this church, what did I see? I saw posters about how to uh how to lovingly uh and skillfully navigate conversations with people who identified as gender diverse and and trans. And like so I felt suddenly this I can be who I am here, warts and all, insecurities and all, and I can show up in a different way. And the connections that I have with people when I'm in those shared spaces of authenticity, those are the sparks. Those are like that, that's where we start to feel powerful because we can be who we we discover a sense of self-worth and a self of and a sense of loving ourselves. And when we love ourselves, we can love others. We can see others for who they actually are. Uh, and we start to move away from this constructed space that tells us we have to be perfect all the time and that we, you know, we find a feeling isolated and we find a feeling fearful, and we ultimately reinforce that system, and we and we uh we open up to the idea that there's another way of being in the world. Right. And we believe that the world can be a better place. I think that the, you know, for me, there's a uh quote uh by uh an old fellow by the way, the name of Noam Chomsky, uh, that says, uh, you know, people often humility optimism, often seen as, you know, as sort of weak uh weakness or folly or naivete. Noam Chomsky said, Optimism is a strategy for making a better future. Because if you don't believe the future can be better, it's unlikely you will step up and take part in making it so. And so you gotta believe that you you can be who you actually are. You have got to believe that the world can be a better place. You gotta believe that there is a desire to actually make things better and connect with other people. If you don't believe that in the first place, it's very unlikely that you're gonna do anything to try and change things, connect people, build those sorts of spaces. So, and again, I don't think that there's any, there's no silver bullet. There's no one answer, there's no grand design here. Um, I think of another another quote uh by Margaret Mead never doubt that a group of small committed people can change the world. Indeed, that is the only thing that ever has. Yeah. You know, the you know, little points of connection, little, you know, moments of uh of resistance, little uh, you know, uh uh steps towards creating those spaces and not discounting any of that, that will start to connect. And you can start to see in in major in major movements around the world, they rarely start with a grand design. They start with a handful of incredibly dedicated, passionate people.

Bill 1:09:11

Yeah. People who get together in a basement of a church and say, like, are we all in agreement that this isn't this isn't the future?

Scott 1:09:18

This isn't and ask ourselves what what could we do about it? Yeah. Even though that's a big scary question, let's try.

Bill 1:09:25

Absolutely.

Scott 1:09:26

And let's not think that we're gonna come up with an answer right away, but having the conversation in the first place is a pretty important step.

Final Thoughts And How To Respond

Bill 1:09:34

Any final thoughts before we move into our closing, Francis?

Francis 1:09:38

I think Scott and I have talked about authenticity, and I think um I think that's a central tenant of how we change our societies. Because um, to be who you are not is the most difficult thing to do. Yet that is what we've chosen to do. And we have decided that to be superficial is a far more stronger attribute than to be authentic. So I struggle when I'm not myself. I struggle, and I think it's it is for so many people as well. And we live in a society where we are told to be to present ourselves differently from who we truly are, and that creates a situation where we do not demonstrate um our authentic selves and the spaces we find ourselves. We have to become rather than we have to be who we are. And that has permeated every fabric of our society. And even the politicians we're talking about, including us um who are the the governed, I think we still find ourselves in the same situation. So as a politician, I need to make myself look more than who I am by my utterances, my behaviors, my actions in public. And then in private, I'm also a different person. And this is what we are seeing today and in every facet of our society. And I struggle with that because if you are not who you are, then who are you? And so we have to be able to yes, I know that we have the public persona, then the private persona. And I think I was in a conference in in Denver, and then I had a little conversation with the facilitator around this dichotomy. And I said, in indigenous cultures, it's hard to differentiate between the public persona and then the private persona. And my culture is the same. So, how do I break myself into two? To be this person here and then to be another person somewhere else. It is so hard. But this is what we're experiencing. And someone was asking, Francis, you have to go into politics. I cannot be a politician because I have to be Francis. Yeah and then he laughed, and we all laughed. But this is what I'm talking about. I think if we're able to really accept that we are imperfect, and that to be authentic doesn't mean that I am trying to be something else other than who I am. This is what society should be able to begin to think about. Authenticity is what is going to bind our world together and then give us a future that is much more hopeful and optimistic, in my opinion.

Bill 1:12:42

So the piece that I do want to nuance, as I I usually try to, um uh we are imperfect does not mean that we are broken. No, and I want to be clear, yes, uh, especially to people who are listening, uh, that uh you are not broken, right? To be imperfect is to be human. Is to be human. Um and our humanity in and of itself uh is uh is a beautiful and wonderful thing. Uh so the idea of warts and all is not meant to be uh uh a diminishment of ourselves. Um uh we are we are uh children of God and we are beloved. And uh, you know, to be imperfect and to to struggle with how to live fully and wholeheartedly uh is is the work that all of us are doing. Um and trying to do uh better is not because we are less than, it is because we believe that uh we can all collectively together be more than. Uh is that a fair enough nuance to say, right? Absolutely. So we have kind of a a way that we close these uh these episodes, uh, which is you get one final thought uh that you can direct to the listeners whatever it is you want. It can be about anything, it can be about this topic. Uh this is your soapbox, this is your moment, uh, your final thought. I'm gonna start with you, Scott. I'll give you a minute to think about it though, uh, because as as uh you're thinking, I just want to say thank you very much to both of you, Scott and Francis, for being here tonight. This has been a profound conversation, very deep, very meaningful. Uh very grateful that both of you are willing to be here. Uh we didn't save the world, uh, but I think uh we introduced some things that folks have never considered before, and that always is the the goal. So thank you to both of you for being here tonight. And with that, Scott, I'm gonna turn it over to you for your final thought. My Springer moment, my dear Springer moment.

Scott 1:14:28

All right. Um I'm if I'm a fan of quotes, uh uh and I've sort of collected them throughout my life, and uh the good ones help help guide me. And so I'll end off with uh with a an overused quote I will acknowledge, but it's overused because it's a good one. Uh I think back to uh quote by Gandhi be be the change you want to see in the world. Um I think a lot of uh, you know, when we think about this big conversation, and then we uh we ask ourselves, well, so what can I do? Like what what can you know, what can whoever is listening to this right now in this moment, this podcast, asking themselves, like, what can I do? Well, you can do whatever you can do. You can be the change, you can be the person that you want to be. And we often, I think, uh say to ourselves, well, I'm only I can only do this. Well, then do that. And that's the thing that you do. Uh, and if you do that, you know, if you if you be the most authentic version of yourself that you can be, the same person inside the house as you are outside this house, same person in private as you are in public, the best version of yourself that you can be, the most authentic version of yourself, the most loving version of yourself that treats other people in that way in as many days of your life, and we all have ups and downs, but you put everything you are into being the kind of person that you would like to be in your best moments in the world. If you do that, that will have a much bigger impact than you likely ever think that it will. So I can only do this, do what you can. If we all did what we can, whatever we could, I think that the overall impact would amaze us, would leave us uh awe-inspired and uh and speechless, which doesn't happen to me very often, but every once in a while. So there you go. That's my final thought.

Francis 1:16:37

Thank you, Francis. You know, my mom used to say something like the womb of a woman is like an ocean, it contains everything. The ocean contains everything. And she do that because we're eight kids and all of us are different. And I think it is important for us to recognize that in this world differences are not the problem. It is the human thinking that is the problem. And so we have to understand that we in this room can be carriers of human dignity. I think we are different, and the different the somatic differences don't mean anything, much more so than the heart we carry, and the reason that we are human beings, the ability to have conscience, to think, to love, to be able to really say, you are my sister, you are my brother. I think that that that sense of being is being eroded. And in this room, each of us can become a carrier of human dignity in terms of how we talk to each other, how we relate, how we think about each other. That the Ubuntu philosophy I am because we are is central to human existence. And until we really protect it in our actions, we will stand we will not stand a chance of really saving humanity because our destinies are tied together. And none of us here is an island. We all belong to each other. And that should be the message that is told in our families, on the dining tables, in our organizations, in our societies, and at a global level. That is the only way we can bring our voices to bear. The voices of descent should not have dominion over voices of unity. And this will be my concluding remarks.

Bill 1:18:47

Thank you very much. And my closing remarks will be I'm gonna I'm gonna take Scott's cue tonight. Uh I rarely do it, but uh I am going to quote Marianne Williamson uh that our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, uh, but that our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. Um we ask ourselves who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? And actually, who are you not to be because you are a child of God? Uh so uh with that, I want to say thank you to the audience for being here in the room tonight, uh, because we always record live in front of an audience. And I again want to thank Scott and Francis for being here and for all of uh the vulnerability that you brought to this conversation and all the wisdom you have brought to this conversation. And just know that whoever you are, wherever you are listening from, you are a beloved child of God, and you are enough, and you have the ability to carry grace and dignity and hope into the future that we can all eventually build a world that restores everybody to the family and ever and invites everybody to the table in a way that resists and uh denies fear and embraces the the beauty of our diversity warts and all. Uh so with that, thank you for listening, and this is Prepare to Drown, signing off until next month.

Closing Message And Ways To Join

Bill 1:20:09

Friends, we knew this conversation was not going to be easy and that it wouldn't wrap up neatly. I don't think it's supposed to, because what we're talking about is the world that we're actually living in. If there's anything to take with you tonight, it might be this. Fear doesn't get the final word unless we hand it over. You are, because we are. Prepare to Drown is recorded live each month in Calgary, Alberta, and you are welcome to join us live in the room if you're ever in the area. You can learn more at PreparedDrown.com. You can sign up for free on Patreon to keep the conversation going with us, or you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Wherever you are listening tonight in this messy, beautiful world, thanks for being here, and take care of yourself. We'll see you again soon.