Episode 21 - Flooding the Rink

A romance on the ice shouldn’t feel radical, but Heated Rivalry hit Canada like a thunderclap because it exposes what so many people already know and rarely say out loud: hockey can demand silence from the very players and fans who love it most. We start with the show’s cultural takeover and quickly get into the real stakes behind the story, from sponsorship pressure and locker-room fear to the quiet reality that many pro athletes still can’t safely live out loud.

From there, we widen the lens to hockey culture in Canada, including what it means when iconic traditions change and when the sport becomes less accessible. We talk youth hockey affordability, the way pay-to-play reshapes who belongs, and why inclusive hockey associations matter not only for safety, but for joy and community. We also name the backlash head-on, asking what people think they’re protecting when they say “why does everything have to be gay now?”

We don’t avoid the hard intersections: faith and scripture used as weapons, government policy that targets trans and queer kids in sport and schools, and the difference between inclusion on paper and inclusion you can actually feel when you walk into a room. We end where we have to end, with hope grounded in action and a vision of sport that’s truly uniting.

If this conversation gives you language, courage, or a new angle on queer representation in sports, subscribe, share the episode with a friend, and leave a review. What would make your community feel safer to show up as your full self?

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Transcript

Pride Month And A Cultural Moment

Bill 0:08

A few months ago, most people in our circles had never heard about heated rivalry. Today, because of the TV series, it seems to be everywhere. Fans can't stop talking about it, critics can't stop arguing about it, even professional athletes have responded to it. Somehow, a television series has become part of a much larger conversation. At the same time, Pride Month is prompting conversations about visibility and inclusion and belonging in communities around the world. Somewhere in the middle of those two things, we found ourselves with a lot to talk about. I'm Bill Weaver, and this is Prepared to Drown. Good evening, everybody, and welcome again to the basement of McDougall United Church here in Calgary, Alberta. June is Pride Month in much of the world, but not in Calgary, because we wait until September in Calgary purely because of the weather. Still, it is Pride Month everywhere else, and uh it felt like a good opportunity to explore a cultural moment that has had a remarkable amount of conversation this year. Because over the last few months, a television series called Heated Rivalry, that is based off of a book series that was a number of books actually, has become one of the most talked-about cultural stories of the year here in Canada. It's broken streaming records, it's generated headlines, it has sparked fierce loyalty from its fans and attracted plenty of criticism from uh the angry mob that exists out there in the world as well. But it has created a remarkable amount of discussion both inside and outside the hockey world, which is probably some of the most fascinating conversation as well. And it raises some interesting questions for us about why this story and why now. Now, this is dangerous territory for me because I have just enough hockey knowledge to get myself into trouble, and not enough hockey knowledge to get myself out of it, and that is why I am so thankful that I do not have to have this conversation alone tonight. Joining us as always at the far end of the table from me is Ricardo Di Menezes. Ricardo is the director for Southern Alberta at UFC Local 401. He's a fierce labor advocate, a passionate voice for equity and justice. He's also active with UFCW Outreach, a 2 SLGBTQ advocacy and solidarity network working to ensure queer and trans workers can bring their full selves to their work and to their unions. So, Ricardo, as always, glad to have you here. Happy Juneteenth. Happy Juneteenth, yes. We're also joined tonight by Reverend Linda Hunter sitting in the middle of the room. Uh Linda serves Wild Rose United Church here in Calgary, Alberta. She spent decades on the front lines of affirming ministry and inclusion work and social justice advocacy, both within the church and in the wider community. For much of my own ministry life, personally, Linda has been a mentor and a colleague and a role model. She has taught me more about the kind of minister I hope to be, so it is a personal joy for me to have her here this evening. And thank you for being here, Linda.

Linda 3:06

Linda, it's a joy for me to be here. Thanks.

Bill 3:10

Sitting next to me, uh right to my right, is Laura Layshin. Laura is the founder of Stay in the Game Youth Sports, which is a Calgary-based nonprofit that creates welcoming and inclusive opportunities for young people to play, connect, and thrive. After more than 20 years working as a sports photojournalist in Canada and Sweden, Laura saw both the power of sport and the barriers that still keep too many people on the sidelines. So thank you for lending your voice to this conversation tonight as well, Laura.

Laura 3:37

Thank you. Glad to be here.

Bill 3:39

And finally, sitting over in between Linda and Ricardo, we have Justin Connolly. Justin has worked in sport and recreation since the age of 16. He studied sport and recreation management at Mount Royal University and has spent years working in sport programming and administration across many ages and communities. Hockey still remains his greatest passion, and he currently serves on the board of the Calgary Inclusive Hockey Association as Director of Player Development. And Justin, we are really glad that you're here tonight. Thanks for having me, and I'm excited and happy Pride Month.

What Hockey Still Means In Canada

Bill 4:09

So before we get into the television series itself, I want to start somewhere else altogether because this week Canadians learned that Hockey Night in Canada is going to disappear from CBC. So I want to start there. When you think about hockey culture, uh what do you what do you think it is about hockey culture today that speaks to us still as Canadians?

Ricardo 4:31

Oh, you're asking me. I'm just I didn't know Hockey Night in Canada were disappearing. Oh wow.

Bill 4:37

After more than 75 years.

Ricardo 4:39

So what was your question again? I just know when you know, but I said that.

Bill 4:43

Exactly. Uh so what is it about hockey culture here in Canada that still does that to us when we hear about hockey night in Canada?

Ricardo 4:50

Coming from um uh a child of immigrants, like hockey was never like in our lexicon at all. But for some reason, my my parents and my family like embraced hockey as a way to almost fit in. Because hockey was the way of life in the 70s and the 80s, and like even growing up, like you know, you could put your kids into soccer, you could put your kids into basketball and stuff like that, but there was always like hockey kids in every school, like albeit probably the most expensive sport you could put your child into, but they made it happen, right? Um, even till today, I can't get enough of the bloody fundraisers that take place, and I have more cases of bacon in my freezer than I care to even want to know about, right? But it all in it is all driven in the purpose of of pushing the the um the picture of Canada as a hockey nation, right? Um and so um you know I can remember a time when um when inclusion in sports was just having a female league. And I can remember my sister wanted to play soccer when she was a kid, and uh there was no girls' league for soccer. So she there's a picture of her with her team, and it's all boys and it's just her. And they had to make an exception. And like it's it's interesting. Hockey, like I mean, you hear about inclusion problems in hockey all the time too, but it's always just been like this unquestioned um sport in Canada that um if you're in hockey, you're you're a super cool person. You can skate, and I can't I can teach you. I I can go on the ice and then I'll just hang on to the wall and drag myself along. But yeah, no, it's just there's something about hockey in Canada. I don't I don't know what it is, but I mean if you've ever been to Cuba and you've seen baseball, you know what it is. If you've ever been to any Latin American or European country and you talk about football or soccer, it's like that. That's that's our religion in many, many ways. And so I can remember being at my uncle's house and like just watching the flames play, and I'm just like, what the hell is going on? What are we doing, right? But that's the culture. It's something else, right?

Bill 6:51

Wasn't part of your lexicon growing up though, because for me, uh Sunday night was always Hockey Night in Canada, uh, Wonderful World of Disney, and the beachcombers, right? It was like the the Triune, you know, divine Sunday evening that we sat around the I remember the Flames winning the Stanley Cup. We were around my living room table when it happened, right? And it was like you did not do anything on Sunday night except watch Wonderful World of Disney, Hockey Night in Canada, and the Beachcombs, right? Back to back.

Affordability And The Cost Barrier

Ricardo 7:20

And like let's carve aside the part about inclusion that we're talking about in sports here, like accessibility, just affordability of the sport. And people just like even if they could never afford to play hockey, they were involved and they were enthralled with hockey. And I can remember one of my cousins in Calgary married um a person from Vancouver, and they were also uh uh an immigrant hockey family as well. And the rivalry between Calgary and Vancouver for the conducts versus the flames was like it was so weird. Like it just it it brings it's I would say that regardless of any of the issues that they have internally in terms of inclusion, like the sport really brings the country together in many, many ways, right?

Linda 7:56

Um but but it all comes down to money. I mean that's what this is about, right? This this whole thing about uh it's no longer gonna be on s uh CDC where you can watch it on a Saturday night. I mean, the newest contract goes to, I'm not even sure who it goes to, but it's uh uh you have to pay per view and so it it comes down to that. And also I think that some of the struggle uh in terms of hockey is the expense of it, period for youngsters. I think there should be a concern that uh youngsters to play hockey, it's uh exceedingly expensive. And so soccer is starting to take over some of that uh air with uh with uh especially with six-nothing the guitar. No, yeah. All you need is a good set of runners and knee pads, and away you go.

Justin 8:47

So yeah, Sport Calgary just posted something on their Instagram a couple of days ago and it said the average first year hockey cost for uh one child is $4,000. Um it hockey is only getting more expensive as we go on because it it it it's becoming a sport for affluent people and families. Um and it's pricing out a lot of good athletes that can become hockey players. Registration numbers in Canada have actually gone down over the last number of years. Um, and they've they're starting to rise in other countries just because it's such a specialized sport um and it the cost is it's um yeah, it puts a lot of it puts a block in front of a lot of people.

Ricardo 9:26

Trevor Burrus Well that yearly cost also be like equipment and stuff?

Justin 9:29

Yeah, that includes registration fees, equipment, and uh team fees, travel um, and upkeep of equipment. And um like if you think $4,000 a year, that's could be four months rent for someone. That could that could be someone's month, month, you know, monthly income, right, that they have to support their family with. And um it's it's something that I don't think any organization has found the secret formula to combat yet, to bring down costs.

Linda 9:56

Well, and all the motels and hotels in Red Deer, for example, will be uh if when sports teams like uh youth sports teams uh can't afford it any longer. I mean those hotels, if you ever go on a weekend, those hotels are filled with sports teams, and a lot of them are hockey. So uh so it has a ripple effect uh through the economy, period.

Laura 10:18

Absolutely. I was hoping that my my son wouldn't want to play hockey. He did mention it once, and then I thought, no. Too expensive early mornings. No. Yeah.

Justin 10:30

The expense was yeah, he never played, so well, and there's a lot of private equity groups that are that buy up a lot of ice time that that run hockey based on profit, for profit, and then a lot of minor sports. I think there is uh a law that's want that is coming to one of the good things I think that the Amer American politics are doing is they're pass trying to pass a law where private equity groups cannot um actually partake in youth sport, because it's true, it's it's actually risen the cost up so much. So hopefully that does come to fruition. But that's something that maybe can be done in Canada as well.

Heated Rivalry And Closeted Athletes

Bill 11:07

Well, let's talk about this show that uh leads the spirits around the edges of a Canadian religious practice uh of hockey. Trevor Burrus, Jr. I that I don't know if that show also underscores that religious practice. Let's be honest. And and to be clear, if you have not seen Heated Rivalry and you're listening to this podcast, please do not uh equate what I just said with go forth and learn about religion. Um because that is not what's gonna happen. Uh, much like all those uh really unfortunate folks who thought they were watching the second iteration of the Mighty Ducks.

Justin 11:41

Um Mighty Ducks Grown Up is what it is, yes.

Bill 11:44

Very adult Mighty Ducks, yes. Um But uh let's talk about the show. Heated Rivalry tells us Heated Rivalry tells the story about a secret relationship between two professional hockey players. Uh the conversation that's grown out of this series, though, has become much bigger than the show or even the book series itself, especially here in Canada.

Ricardo 12:04

And Ricardo, I'm gonna ask you first uh why this story and why now I'm not actually sure um how it all came about and why it why it um was even thought to be created as a TV show. I mean, I'm glad it did. Um because it really, really underscored and for me, um the some people think when they see that um that show and the the levels of anxiety and desperation that those players show to hide their relationship and their feelings. In in the average person's mind who maybe doesn't play professional sports or play in sports, they might think that's over the top. They might think that, oh, I mean that that's that doesn't happen. It's what happens in real life, right? And so what I like about the show, um I mean the third thing I like about the show, I should say, is that it portrays, I would say accurately, but also maybe um very softly, um the level of concern and the level of um discretion they have to show just to maintain their profiles and because they have sponsorships, they have commercials, all that stuff that they have to do, right? What the show didn't show, um which um I mean I don't know what how what it would have done for viewership or ratings, was the level of homophobia and and and violence that takes place in the locker rooms and in in in within those circles um against uh against same-sex relationships or homosexuals or trans people. Like I can remember um when uh NHL was putting rainbow tape on their stickers, and there's a whole bunch of players that decided not to do it and protest against it, and then Batman just like said he banned it all. Like jerseys, hats, sticks the whole nine yards, right? So that's the real face of hockey. And I and I hope that at least heated rivalry showed society that, yeah, it does exist. And they do exist, and they're probably in there right now, um, clinging onto their careers um at the sacrifice of their of almost their humanity in that sense, right? So I hope that at least I mean I hope that that show at least underscores that. And this was supposed supposedly subsequent series um seasons that are coming out soon. So that's just my perspective. As someone who clearly doesn't play a lot of sports. Talk to me about Heated Rivalry Orchestra Edition, and I'll be uh But so far in my orchestra, four to five year oldest are gay, so I don't know if we're gonna so does it resonate?

Bill 14:39

Does it resonate with uh you know from an outsider looking in? Um I would have been uh a little surprised. I thought we had um maybe not in hockey now that I think about it. Uh because I know that uh in football, um like we we see pride um, you know, and on on like baseball teams. We see pride, I think, in a lot of the football teams. Um is it not happening with hockey right now?

Justin 15:04

Is it happening with hockey? Um as Ricardo said, it did take a bit of a step back when uh there was a Russian player that didn't want to wear one of the Pride themed jerseys during a warm-up game. And the NHL did ban uh uh teams from wearing Pride jerseys and using Pride tape in warmups. Um they could still sell jerseys and things in apparel like that, but players were not allowed to use them um on the ice during warmups or games. Um some players actually went against that and did uh uh protest a little bit and put some pride tape on their sticks, which which is amazing. They're slowly starting to roll that back, but it I think it was more mostly for PR because the league didn't want that that bad PR, um, which is unfortunate. Um but um like for me, the representation with heated rivalry as a gay man who does d does play hockey. Um I grew up playing hockey. I stopped when I was 17, and then I started playing again when I joined the Calgary Gay Hockey Association at the time, which is now the Calgary Inclusive Hockey Association. Um and to see that representation in mainstream media and the attention that it's getting is unreal. Um, because I'm I'm able to identify myself with with those characters on the TV and the and the internal struggle that they've gone through with hiding who they are, but playing the sport they love and trying to balance that. Um, because it it's real. Um we know there are gay hockey players, professional hockey players. Um, the only current professional hockey player that is out is Luke Prokop. Um, played for the Calgary Hitman, got traded to the Edmonton Oil Kings and the WHL, came out kind of in between that. Um and he now plays for the Edmonton Oilers farm team, uh Bakersfield, I believe. And so he's the only current out gay hockey player. And there's been no past uh professional gay hockey players that have come out. There's been past like NBA players, Jason Collins, who just recently passed away, unfortunately. Um pieces of bad games. Uh Billy Bean, who is uh former player and um president of the Oakland Athletics in Major League Baseball, um Michael Sam in the NFL, who played in the CFL as well. Um so the N NHL is the only uh league that has not had an uh a former out gay player. We know there are players, um, but that just shows the lack of um I guess lack of safety in in hockey culture that for someone to come out publicly. Um but once you know, but it's again it's a personal decision to come out because that person will be facing a lot of scrutiny and will be kind of that face. Luke has Luke Prokop has taken that step um and he's seen a lot of acceptance, right? So um it's kind of a wait and see, but it's definitely a personal choice for someone.

Faith, Scripture, And Real Harm

Linda 17:48

The thing that always uh uh grieves my heart about uh when I hear conversations about uh you know um professional hockey teams and uh knowing that, quite frankly, the church has been uh very much a part of creating this kind of uh backlash and and this kind of environment in which people are are terrified for their lives. And it it's come uh so much from uh you know uh church groups, uh interpretation of scripture, which is uh, you know, if if you look at the seven clobber passages, we often call them in scripture, uh, that that speak about uh sexual relations, uh same same gender as sexual relations. They have nothing to do uh with um uh with what homosexuality or what we're talking about uh today. Uh and and yet those uh scripture passages have been dreadfully misinterpreted, uh taken from the original Greek uh uh United Church minister named David Farron. Uh you know, uh the group that were putting together the revised standard version of the scripture, which the United Church accepted in the 50s as their official uh scripture um uh Bible that they would use. Um, they had uh in the in the Corinthians passage, first Corinthians passage, it was misinterpreted entirely. And it was the only in in 1946, I think, uh the translators um squashed together a couple of Greek words and created and and homosex the word homosexuality appeared in scripture for the very first time based on a mistranslation, and it has nothing to do with with same-gender relationships at all. And I think that that that grieves my heart a great deal uh because that amount of misinformation and what you've been talking about uh has rippled out into our our culture and into our world um based on on some pretty uh well erroneous things. And and so um I think that's where it needs to start for sure. Uh I've lived in the context of church and and worked all my life in the context of a church, and and it is requires so much uh effort, even today. It's uh you know, some days I feel like I've been grinding away at this for so long. Surely we should be moving beyond this. And um but uh we have these setbacks all the time because someone decides that they're gonna use one of those clobber passages and and and then and then that ripples out into the society and harms people dreadfully. So um, you know, I so that's where I come from with this uh you know, recognizing that the source of so much of our difficulties today is scriptural, misinterpreted scripture, and and uh, you know, so-called faithful people. Uh and I I don't want to denigrate those folks who are you know faithful Christians and and all the rest of it, but do your homework for God's sake. That's you know, and and uh uh take some time to learn and to study and to uh more fully understand before you um you harm people as we've we've been doing.

Bill 21:18

Absolutely.

Laura 21:19

I guess um I'd like to say something about a little bit about that. My son's 14 and I grew up Anglican, stopped going to church when I was about 17, 18, I guess, and then never stepped back into a church. Well, I when I got married I did, but um then two years ago he was asking about he wanted to go to church. And I was like, oh okay. I wasn't sure I didn't want to stop him from wanting I knew if that's what he wants, then I have to be accepting to that. But I need to do my research and I need to find a church that we can actually go to, a church that Inclusive and so many aren't, and that's where I met Pam Rocker and learned about affirming connections because I was searching and searching for a church that that I was okay with to go to, and and yeah, we started going to we went to the one in um I guess Hillhurst. Yeah, we went there over Connecticut. Yeah, yeah. So he loved it. So yeah, so then we started on our path.

Bill 22:28

Yeah.

Ricardo 22:28

It's amazing how over the years church has like church's sport have intertwined themselves in that way too. Like, I mean, let's set aside the Christian-based schools that exist. When I was in high school, I played football. Um, and every game day we had to go to mass in the morning before school to pray for our game, right?

Bill 22:46

And the the Jesus does truly support the local sports.

Linda 22:57

And everything to do with those prayers, right?

Ricardo 22:59

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Brown's bride, brown bride. Right? And you see a lot of the um the schools in the US, too, with very, very like down on one knee, let's pray to Jesus before we go on the field or on the on the ice, right? Yep. And that act of prayer, while harmless before a game, is connected to the institution that reinforces all of those clobber passages that you talk about, right? And so there's no safety in that sense from a young age uh for somebody who takes part in high school sports, especially when you just in religious institutions. So um why hated rivalry makes sense to me, um, or is a good thing too, is because it may not be religious, but um Romanov comes from Russia, which as we all know is you know very highly criminally homophobic, right? And one of the most striking parts of the series that resonated with me was when he is so frustrated being in Russia after his father dies, and and what's the other guy's name? Hollander. Shane Hollander. Yeah, yeah. He tells me, like, say what you want to say and just spill it all out, but just say it to me in Russian on the phone, right? So I have no idea what you're saying, right? Like the anxiety and the buildup is that is that bad being a Russian uh gay person in Russia. Um but I imagine the feelings are still uh resonate right here at home in a lot of sport communities too.

Bill 24:26

Well yeah, there's a number of uh when when the series was out uh and and like still kind of like not um like just out. People were just watching it. Um there were a number of reports that were coming out in the media about uh um active professional athletes, uh both the within the hockey world, but even outside of that and other sports as well, that were all contacting the cast members and producers and and everything and basically saying that they recognize themselves in these characters, in these stories, right? And like don't never never say my name, never like share this publicly, right? But like I just need you to know that um like I I see myself in Shane, right? I see myself, right, in in these characters and or this happened to me, right? This the same thing that you're portraying here, you know, happened to me. There was a there was a huge groundswell of current professional athletes. And again, like to like to have none of them publicly out officially in any way that are you know under the cover of darkness phoning just to say thank you for like actually like telling my story with nobody knowing it's me, right?

Justin 25:30

Well, and that's why representation is just so important, to see people will see themselves in others, in those characters, and know it's okay to be themselves, right? The the support and just the wor the worldwide fame that the the series got was unbelievable. You know, as a gay hockey player, I saw something about it premiering. It was September, October it premiered last year, November. Um, didn't think much of it, and then the first few episodes came out and it hit like it like unbelievable, right? And that's why that represent representation matters. But those athletes that were contacting the actors, it all they said, please obviously don't ought me publicly, but that just shows how much fear there is in someone being truly who they are, right? And and how you know the sport sports itself doesn't have to be it's not just hockey, it's it's still not as accepting as it should be, right? And Linda, as you said, as you said earlier, um thank you for your allyship in that and and and bringing that to light because that um I think there's a lot of misinterpretations of of of religion and um and and and come and coming out and and things like that. And I think you know to have that allyship for our community is super important. And we and that we can't do this without allies, right? So uh we need that allyship to move to help move things forward because um as a community we're strong, but we need those allies to help help us move forward as well. So thank you.

Ricardo 26:54

And absolutely you're right, representation matters. To have that on the TV screen in such a blatant and and and apparent way is so important for people. But what concerns me the most is like, could you imagine today in 2026 in Trump's America, those two guys meet out in the middle of the ice, there'd be hot dogs flying over the thing and everything like that. That's the part of it that frustrates me about the show, right? Is that um they showed this beautiful loving connection on the ice and everybody was cheering. That wouldn't happen. Let's just be very clear. Okay, it would happen probably maybe with 30 to 40 percent of the audience would cheer, and there would be fights and stuff, and but there would be a lot of cheers, right?

Bill 27:32

And so um well, but sometimes we look to art to give us some more idealized, hopeful versions of what could be life.

Ricardo 27:40

Exactly. And so, like why I like the show is that it showed that they can they can overcome that obstacle or that at least that barrier in many ways, because right after they did the the kiss scene, he went out in public on a press conference and said, so let's let's talk about the elephant in the room, right? And I think that's what they need to do more was talk about the elephant in the room like in a press conference and stuff like that, you know?

Justin 28:03

And this is this show is actually pushing the popularity of hockey. Um and uh there are a bunch of queer gay inclusive hockey associations across North America, more than you would actually think. Um Edmonton, Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto, Montreal, Chicago, Arizona, New York, Madison, Wisconsin. There's team trans hockey. I could go on and on. But Pittsburgh. Uh I don't know if there's one in Texas yet that I'm aware of, or Florida for that matter. But there's but there's also support there are queer support groups that actually watch um hockey. So there's the gay, there's the Kaniacs, the queer gay Kaniacs who follow the Carolina Hurricanes who just won the Stanley Cup. Um but uh the Chicago Pride hockey. Um I know for a fact they've posted it on their social media that ever since uh Heater Rival Week came out, they've had an increase of exponential of people that have contacted them wanting to play hockey that have never played before queer hockey. Uh, Calgary Inclusive Hockey Association, the Calgary Flair, we've seen increased uh interest in our um in our wait list for teams and and our uh we have a uh we partnered with the City of Calgary for a develop a player development program. So for people that can't get on teams that want to learn how to play hockey, we've partnered with them for that as well. So we've seen an increase. So from that point of view, it's it's it's great to see, but there's still a long way to go. That's fantastic.

Linda 29:23

I think the thing from the the series that I I watched uh very closely and uh two things that came out of it. Number one, how well they expressed the frustration that they were forced to to uh l be in you know in the closet, as it were. That that that really came through ever uh uh in every uh uh episode. I could just feel it coming out of the screen. And and you that that that tension that that created. And the other part of it, the opposite side of that, is the toxic masculinity that is um a a part of can be a part of sports. It doesn't necessarily have to be, but there was lots of toxic masculinity in in the the series. And so I think that it showed uh it it really touched I think one of the reasons it was successful is because it touched on so many of those things and and did it well uh in in terms of that. And uh that these uh two young men had to, you know, their weeks would go by and they'd be in Montreal together and then they'd find each other and and had a you know a night together or whatever. And um the other the other part that I found so um uh as the series went on is is that they each of them, uh both of these guys, they became tender and and more um um soft and and uh more accepting that they could be loving and that it it wasn't a bad thing to to express. I I found that certainly in terms of the uh how they um interacted and were intimate with each other. Um it started out, you know, kind of really that rough-edged kind of feel to it. And and you can see how it they became more and more tender and understood that they didn't have to be, you know, toxic masculine guys to to uh in this situation, that they they could, you know, pour out who they were lovingly to each other. I love that part of it. Uh as uh you know in the last um couple of episodes was they were beautiful, beautifully done.

Laura 31:31

I think especially the Ilya, the Russian the Russian guy who he was uh pretty masculine and scared to show his feelings. I think only towards the end he did.

Linda 31:47

And of course is is uh the context out of which he came, Russia, would would have been and that that was portrayed accurately. I I mean you do any reading, the uh patriarch of the uh Russian Orthodox Church has really under Vladimir Putin has has uh moved into uh Zenith. You know, at one time it was um you know was almost underground, the church was. Now it is embraced by Putin and the our archbishop or tetrarch or whatever he's called. I mean that that's why it's become more and more and more dangerous uh for the gay community in Russia. Thanks again to the church. Right back to the church. Soul.

Bill 32:29

The church is no stranger to being embraced by the Empire, though.

Linda 32:34

Yep, yep.

Bill 32:35

And it's never gone well for us historically either, right? Um there is something fascinating about uh um whether whether you're an underground movement and you suddenly find yourself in the position of power, the first thing you tend to do is um do everything that was done to you, right? You you learn from your oppressors and you become the oppressor, right? Um when the when things shift.

Linda 32:55

So um that's the dialectic that happens, that that shift from bec being the oppressed to becoming the oppressor.

Bill 33:02

Yeah.

Linda 33:03

Absolutely, Bill.

Bill 33:04

Yeah.

Youth Sports Inclusion And New Barriers

Bill 33:05

So uh Laura, I'm gonna ask you, because we're we're you you do a lot of work um with Stand the Game Music Sports around trying to trying to remove obstacles, road barriers, um, and talk a lot about the barriers that still exist for especially young people to be involved in sport and to really um embrace you know their their athletic self in the process. Um so we're talking a lot about uh being able to see yourself inside a sport. Um and certainly one of the barriers we've talked both around uh around sort of the idea of like uh affordability being a barrier, right? Um it would be very easy not to see yourself being able to play hockey because you know mom and dad can't afford forever to play hockey, right? Um but also because uh there is no inclusive league, or you don't understand that there's an inclusive league for you, or um this this culture that exists still very predominantly. Um and uh and so what does it uh what what happens for young people when they're able to see themselves reflected in something like a mass media um opportunity to see themselves reflected in a space that they've normally uh not seen themselves in or they've been invisible in?

Laura 34:14

Um I guess for for our organization, um when kids are about 11 and 12 hit puberty, then they a lot of them quit sports if they don't feel like they fit in. And I noticed that with my own with my son growing up. And um Yeah, we were a couple moms that were looking for well, where can we go from here? You know, there's nothing. We looked, we we searched every organization in the city, and we couldn't find anything we found for adults, but nothing for kids. And so we just said, well, we're gonna start our own then. So we just started small, and and it was also because of the legislation that came out, I think it was 2024, which is when we started because of yeah, all the I don't know if it was Bill 25, 26, or 29.

Bill 35:03

It was one of them um with the sports anyway, um yeah, 25 is the one that just came out. Yeah, so you're talking about the um like specifically targeting girls in sports?

Laura 35:17

Yeah, and then also that you can't um if you're on a mixed league or um like if say you have any trans players or any or any uh homosexual players on the team, you can't you're not allowed to compete. Yeah. So um we just thought, well, we'll just do our own.

Ricardo 35:38

12 years old.

Justin 35:38

Sorry, that'll gay crazy. I know it's I it's the it's the tr yeah it's anti-trans. I don't think it's it don't matter if you're like if you're gay or not, but it it's anti-trans, yeah. They don't want they don't want boys and girls sport, which is and girls have to provide a birth certificate.

Linda 35:53

Yes, yes.

Bill 35:54

Their parents do actually. And uh I I made a comment a little while ago because uh um my daughter and my son both uh played on the badminton team at school, and I was sitting at the badminton game and realized and I sat there and like just had this moment in the stats where I was like, like both of my kids are doing the exact same thing here right now, and I had to sign off on one of them to be able to play. Um and and it was like it was just this like this stark moment of like what the actual L. Um like again, like it's badminton, so I'm I'm I don't want to totally editorialize, but I think there are degrees of athleticism that exist in sports, and badminton may not actually be that high up there. Um but uh but um but to to to sit there and like my my my daughter was not allowed to do anything uh until I was prepared to sign that form at the beginning of school year, right? That uh and and and so many layers to it as well that if uh like somebody could contest, right? If you like we had this running joke because my daughter's very good when she competes, and it was like there's gonna be some sore loser that's gonna like file a complaint when they get their ass kicked by my kid. Uh and I'm gonna have to prove somehow that she's AFAB, right?

Justin 37:10

Like, well, and it's actually it actually has had a negative impact on girls' sport it because there are now less uh there are less players that are eligible to play on those teams, and it's actually negative effectiving registration in girls' sport. Girls drop out, yeah. Girls drop out at a younger at at a higher rate out of sport because of different reasons. And this is actually instead of keeping more girls in sport, it's actually going the other way.

Laura 37:39

Absolutely. Yeah. And a lot of the parents won't sign the form. Yeah, so a bunch of people.

Bill 37:44

Yeah, when I when I filled out the form, I I wrote an entire narrative about how disgusted I was with the administration and the whole nine narratives when I I signed it because I wasn't going to tell my kid you can't compete, right? But it was like it felt gross to do it, right? And it was the whole um like if there was a way to not punish my kid in my protest, I would have done so. But that was the thing that made me the angriest. Was that like I don't really have a choice in this matter unless I'm prepared to like you know screw with my kids' you know hopes to be able to compete, right?

Justin 38:16

Well, with the provincial government's attack against teachers and also the anti-trans legislation, uh think about you know, our gay and lesbian and trans teachers and the personal attacks they were taking on both sides as being a teacher that are severely underfunded and the help in the classroom, and then they have this personal attack against them, and they have they have students coming to them, right, that confiding in them because they don't feel safe at home to be themselves, and they're coming to these teachers, and these teachers now can't have pride flags in the classroom, can't have trans flags in the classroom. So there's no safe space for these kids to go. And it's it's scary.

Linda 38:54

Trevor Burrus Well, it's a form of erasure, isn't it? Trevor Burrus, it is. To uh erase uh a group of people and by passing all these laws that that they're gonna go going to go away. That's just uh the most foolish thinking. And and in fact, we should be encouraging and uh openness and uh as we used to. I mean, my daughter is a teacher and she's in teaches grade four. She knows there's lots of books she cannot read to her students any longer. You know, that lovely book about uh the penguins that uh the two male penguins uh and tango makes three, I think it's called. She could never read that book to her grade four students. Uh it it would be she would be in deep trouble for doing that. Uh and and there are lots of other uh and and she second guesses herself all the time now uh because she feels like you know uh the uh government police are are looking over her shoulder, uh and and everything in the classroom is now supposed to be neutral and nonpartisan.

Justin 39:56

And the fear is that if you know if youth learn about you know same-sex relationships or trans identities, that they will turn out that way. Well, I grew up in you know a very heterosexual world, not knowing much about homosexual rel you know, homosexual people, gay people, trans people, queer people. Well, that didn't stop me from being who I was. I'm gay, right? Like didn't turn me straight. So what's what's the other side of the right?

Linda 40:25

So I'm like speed of God, right?

Justin 40:28

I was born the way I was, and that's that's who I am.

Bill 40:30

So like weird question before we break for intermission. Uh not a weird question, but uh a bit of a maybe a bit of a tangent. Because just because I'm curious, actually, Justin, I'm asking you. Um for somebody who's never walked into an inclusive hockey association, um what what would they notice? What would be different about it from you know walking into a non-inclusive hockey association?

Justin 40:51

What's the I think just the atmosphere of the environment. Um we have like our just our jerseys. Um we a lot of us use Prideape. Um some players have the trans, um, trans colors on their hockey sticks. Um just the open inclusiveness of the sport. You'll see pride flags. Um not just that, but in the other sports leagues across Calgary as well. It's just um, you know, it's not taking away that masculine energy, and I'm doing air quotes, not that anyone can see that. Um but um but that it takes away that masculine energy and that um it's just an open, free environment where you can be who you are and play the sport that you love. Right. I'm I found that. Luckily, I came out when I was 23 and joined the Calgary Inclusive Hockey Association at that time as I was coming out, and I found a community again where I could be myself and people around me. You want to you know, you want to surround yourself with people that are alike you within your community, right? Whether that's at church, school, work, wherever it may be, and that um so you yeah, you're just able to see that, um able to see yourself in in everyone else around you, right? It's that sense of community.

Linda 41:59

It's and that's why that's why churches that are affirming uh uh fly uh pride flags and uh you know trans flags. That's why we do it. Because there has to be a signal somewhere that this is an inclusive place and that the the welcome will be open and full. Uh and so because that's the question that often is raised. Well, oh, why do you have to fly flags? And because you gotta give a signal somehow that that's a safe space for a person.

Ricardo 42:30

Big and go, absolutely. Interestingly enough, when you ask the question, Adjust, about the league, but like even the the crowd, the audience is so much different than you would at a traditional hockey game. I mean, if you go to youth hockey sports, there aren't a whole bunch of parents screaming at the ref and fighting each other over the crawl. There isn't that, actually, too, but it's just a lot of fun. A really, really, really diverse crowd and way more people that know nothing about hockey and just want to chill out in a queer space, in a safe space than you would expect.

Bill 42:57

Like I would hope there's a ton more queer joy at these things than there is at all.

Justin 43:02

Oh yeah. If you ever get a chance, uh every Easter long weekend in Calgary, there's uh an event tournament called Western Cup. It's been going on for full 40 years. Um it's the longest-running inclusive tournament in North America. And it's uh it just it's not just hockey, but there's hockey, dodgeball, badminton, curling, pickleball, uh cross-country skiing, volleyball. There's like 10 sports, and it's a big celebration of just queer sport. Um and it's you know uh all around Calgary, and it's it's it's a just a celebration of inclusive sports. And very intentionally on Easter Love weekend. We know all other religious protesters will be busy that weekend, so this is like our event is free as possible.

Backlash And What People Protect

Bill 43:50

So why don't we why don't we uh why don't we take a break here? We'll we'll break for an intermission, and when we return, we're gonna continue the conversation. Uh but we'll uh we'll uh we'll be right back. So I don't want to pretend that the reaction to heated rivalry has all been universally positive. Uh, because I think we all know that it hasn't. There's been anger, there's been mockery, there's been a lot of that same familiar crap around why does everything have to be gay now? Uh, and I don't want those voices to have the last words, so we're gonna talk about it now to get it out of the way. Because I don't think we do any service uh by pretending they aren't still there as well, right? Um so what do you think? And I'm just gonna put it to the entire panel, whoever wants to answer first can do so. What do you think people are protecting or think they're protecting when they're pushing back against shows like Heather Brivalry?

Ricardo 44:50

Boredom.

Justin 44:52

Think of protecting the boredom.

Ricardo 44:53

Well, you know, like when people say, like, why does everything have to be gay now? Where's my straight pride? Like, and the the quintessential and obvious answer is because you have straight 365 days or 11 months a year, or everything 99.9% of all the content you see on television displays heterosexual couples. But like, honestly, like think of like Will and Grace, like think of um like community, or think of like um parks and rec or you like or um yeah, like every TV show or piece of um art or any play that has a queer character in it is just that much more fun. So just stop protecting your boredom, right? Like, I don't think if God did or didn't want us around, there's the argument too that he wouldn't have made us, but like I don't think God wanted you to be boring, and I don't think any religion says thou shalt just be a plain, annoying person, right? So find a different outlet to do it. And I think that's it.

Bill 45:53

Part of me feels like I need to introduce you to veganism.

Ricardo 45:55

Yeah, there we go. But I I just think that I think that the the the louder that side of society is getting now, especially with the the rise of um uh Captain Orange face in the in the south and our government here, our government here in Alberta, uh, is that they're they're they feel like they're also fighting the uphill battle now because more and more people just don't care. They just it's so I'll give you an example. Um me and my friend, uh actually not really my friend because this this argument happened, we're having the pronoun debate, right? And you know, they're like, well, I just don't get it. And I was like, well, it's not for you to get, it's for you to respect, right? It's just for you to if somebody says sorry.

Bill 46:41

I feel like you need to explain what the pronoun debate is.

Ricardo 46:43

Oh, so like people identify as uh their pronouns to be like my pronouns are he or they, right? So I can go by either. It doesn't really matter. I I dress and I act and I uh identify very fluidly. And so you might be she her if you identify as a female, or he him if you identify fully as male, or even just strictly they, them if you're a gender non-binary, non-conforming person, right? So we had this debate. And I think of my nieces, and one is 21 and one is like 17, and I was listening to a conversation they had, and they were talking about someone in their high school, and they were talking about this person, and and my niece popped in says, Oh no, no, they use they them pronouns. And their friends, like, okay, cool. And then went on, they just don't care. It just doesn't matter. They just don't care, right? And someone in the audience here, Gene, I remember when you first started the affirming process here. That's that's the basis of her entire movement in the affirming. Why does it matter? I remember she's she was getting really angry at our meeting, saying, I don't understand why people care so much about this. So that's really where I'm coming from. They're trying to protect what they don't understand. And also, um I I I firmly don't believe that the movement of if you hang if you put your kids around the gay family, they're gonna become gay. I actually don't think people believe that anymore. Uh, even the religious the religious right don't believe that anymore. I just think that they don't understand it, and they don't understand that um we're not we're just here to exist. Okay and the damaging rhetoric is um where where they associate gay people, lesbian people, trans people with pedophilia, or in the washroom debate. So they use that extreme example or that extreme scenario to vilify us, and that's what drives society against us, right? That's what drives them away from uh from uh mixed sports and gender gender um um genderless sense, I should say sports, right? Um, is that they're worried about you know the the prospect of someone um doing inappropriate things with my children and that you know they just don't and you know that that kind of rhetoric is what but what what um is what fuels it so they're just protecting their boredom and their insecurities really, right?

Linda 49:05

But I think too they're also protecting institutions. I mean speaking from the place of church, uh your protect the the the protection of the institution and morality and uh you know the church has been uh spouting this garbage for uh well since the beginning of of uh the church. And so now you get entrenched and you get trapped. And oh dear, if we we uh you know start uh challenging these uh passages in the scripture, it's all gonna crumble somehow. Uh and and there's the that fear that uh you know what you've built the institution on, you start taking away a brick at a time, then it's all gonna collapse. And and so I think when you talk about protecting, it's certainly uh the institution.

Bill 49:55

Yeah, one of the fascinating things that uh that I've noticed uh uh certainly in my own ministry, and and with the opportunity to move uh through a number of different congregations over the past several years is that uh um like I I remember going to um one particular congregation after leaving a very affirming congregation and um going to this this congregation that was not an affirming church by any means. Um but they did have um all the policies in place that you would expect of an affirming church. So they they didn't uh they didn't you know pay to be an affirming church or pay the membership and affirm United, but they had a marriage policy that was very clear. It's not up to the minister. The minister must be prepared to do same-sex marriages, right? Um and and even the church that I'd left that was far more affirming was like, you know, we're not gonna force it on the minister, we're gonna leave it up to them, but we support. And I actually appreciated their like it's not up for debate. You're doing them if you're gonna be our minister, even if they weren't official as an affirming church, right? And uh and and at the same time, there were there were a lot of conversations about um like from from older people in the congregation that said, like, I have been since Sunday school 80 years ago in the church, and the church has been saying, this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong. And we were always taught you don't question what your minister preaches on Sunday morning, right? And then all of a sudden the minister is preaching, no, no, no, wait a second. We didn't actually mean that. We've learned now uh that there is a whole lot of lazy translation and lazy, um, lazy scholarship done around uh the Bible. And we understand God to be far more expansive and loving and uh all-embracing. Uh and this is this is always the movement of the church. The circle always gets wider over time. And uh and so it's not that it's not that we um it's not it's not that we you know are still propping up the institution. The institution has changed its message and we're still trying to catch up. Um and and there was a lot of a lot of folks, like I know so many folks who left the church when the church couldn't catch up fast enough. Um there's nothing nothing more definitive around um like deciding where your priorities in your relationship is gonna lie normally than uh your kid comes out and your church says it's not okay. And more often than not, I would I used to joke and probably shouldn't have, when someone would come and say, hey, I'm coming to the United Church for the first time from a you know an evangelical church or you know a really conservative um branch of the church, um, and I would say, Oh, really? Who in your family came out as gay? And more often than not, I was right, right? Even though like it's a really miserable punchline, more often than not, that was the case, right? I had to choose between my kid or my church, and I chose my kid. Um and in a lot of ways, that feels pretty academic as a as a choice, right? I don't um the tragedy is when you see the tr the choice go the other way, right? Where like my church says this is wrong, my kid comes out as gay, I kick my kid out. Um, right? And that that and and that does still happen, um, and I don't want to pretend it doesn't by any means, right? Um but more often than not, it's good the church is learning. Um and and I and I don't think that there's any excuse for bad theology. Uh we need to root it out, we need to challenge it, we need to call it into question all the time. And I'm I'm tougher than most when it comes to if you don't like if you don't like it, there's exits on every floor. Um but uh but there are a lot of really good, really good faithful people who we're taught all the time do not question. And we've only recently started to invite the possibility like, hey, you can actually tell your church they're wrong. Um you can tell your church leadership they're wrong. You can you can question left, right, and center, and we encourage you to to stand up and be counted when it matters, right? So like there's a lot of like messy relationships even within the global church family when it comes to power and authority and who's exerting what over whom all the time. So there is some institutional prop-up, but there's also some really um really soul-crushing decisions that are being forced on people in the middle of it all, because it is life and livelihood versus archaic messaging um with a lot of power um undergirding all of it.

Laura 54:16

Yeah, I mean I think you were talking about um what they're protecting, and I think too, masculinity, and then that trickles over to the family unit and how the government is that's a lot of their legislation is going, you know, trying to erase all of this and you know, mom, dad, and kids. And I think and also maybe they feel threatened.

Bill 54:43

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I remember the that same congregation that I went to from the affirmative congregation. When I showed up on the first day, they said, Hey, can we get a picture of you with your wife and your children that we could use as your picture? And I said, No. Like, I am not gonna prop up your traditional family kind of image in the process, right? You'll get me and you'll get only me. Um and that's kind of the end of it. Like it's um there is a lot of um really we're really messed up about our understanding of family, I think, in our culture right now and what that means. Um especially especially because I think not not being a member of the queer community, um, but certainly being a staunch ally, um, I don't think people understand chosen family until you've had to live it, right?

Justin 55:30

Um, I was just about to say that in our community, it's you know, obviously you're born into a family, but it's about your chosen family. It's it's who you choose to surround yourself with and who um who accepts you. Um we're lucky that we can choose our chosen family. Um and you see that a lot in our community. Um you see a lot of people that aren't accepted by their family, um friends when they find out their true identity, and um we get to choose our family. And we talk about that a lot is is our chosen family. Um and uh like you, you know, you can pick your nose, but you can't pick your family. Like the ones that you're that that the one that you're born into, but you can choose who you surround yourself with.

Linda 56:12

But that whole thing about what we're protecting with this is that as well. You know, talking about the traditional kind of uh mom and dad and 2.2 kids or whatever, that that traditional uh family uh scenario trying to protect that, say, well that's that's a real family, and anything else is not a real family. So um, and that's uh that's cultural, and that's really heavy. That that uh societal uh kind of pressure to conform is is immense. And so um and the pushback comes really quickly when when someone steps outside of that, a different configuration. You say, wait a minute, that that's not what we expect or how it should be or how it's ordained. From the again, from scripture, oh my God, yeah, uh, you know, things that you know uh are interpretations of scripture. We have absolutely no idea the culture context in which those things were written. And this whole thing about the inerrant word of God drives me absolutely nuts uh because the the text itself has only been touched by oh 10,000 hands. And and you know, you see a manuscript, and then 200 years later it's been copied, and there is a scribal gloss over here, and then it suddenly becomes part of the next manuscript. And so when someone uh you know, and I I want to be respectful about um you know that that some in my grandmother, inerrant word of God, it was God's word. I again I say do your homework and and dig deeper and um take time to do that and just don't accept as as you've alluded to here, Bill, what the minister says or whatever that the institution says, dig deeper.

Bill 58:09

Yeah. They used to burn people for digging deeper, let's be clear.

Linda 58:13

Yeah, that's a problem. That was a problem anymore.

Bill 58:16

You would always there was a time when like your grandmother probably would not have been embraced by her church community if she started going, you know, I'm I'm questioning this scripture here.

Linda 58:26

Oh, absolutely right. Do you know? I when I was a kid, we used to go to Oguma, Saskatchewan. I'm sure our listeners will know Ogama, Saskatchewan where it is. I would go there in the summers to be with my grandmother, and we would have morning devotionals every morning before we went out and picked peas. I had to do we had to do morning devotionals. And my my grandmother would read from the you know the onions uh skin uh uh sheets in the Bible. And and then we'd have we did do prayer time. And every time we had to pray for the Jews, we she wept because they missed the point. And and she and she was very sincere, she was deeply wounded for all those Jewish people who'd who'd missed the whole story. Lost the plot they had.

Ricardo 59:14

So let me get this quick morning devotionals, picking peas, then praying for those poor Jews.

Linda 59:20

That's kind of the scenario. Yeah.

Ricardo 59:22

So what boredom are we protecting right now?

Linda 59:27

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, my grandmother came out of the depression. So when that was over, you still had to do you still had to plant acres and acres and acres of garden waiting for the next depression. So uh, you know, you had to that's why I was out there in the summers picking peas to give context.

Policy Versus Lived Experience

Bill 59:48

So I'm gonna pose a question to Justin and Ricardo here. Um I'm looking at Ricardo as kind of a combination of USCW outreach, but also just USCW period. Um, and Justin really looking at the inclusive hockey association because I was wondering as I was thinking about the two of you sitting here on this panel tonight, how much of inclusion in and of itself is actually um in policy, like in the way that we enshrine it in policy, and how much of it is uh more about the experience when you walk into the space or into the the room.

Justin 1:00:21

I think uh you need to have there needs to be like I can't, well here, yeah. I knew I'd do this at some point. Um there needs to be specific policy to protect for protection, obviously. Um but walking into those spaces experiences everything, right? Walking into an inclusive environment, people need to feel welcome. They need to be, they need to feel their genuine selves. They need to be able to feel comfortable and not feel like that have to hide who they truly are, right? Um and you know, in in my experiences when I and did any type of sports programming or anything like that, we always said any anytime someone walks through those doors, they want they need to be able to feel their authentic selves and be able to give themselves a chance, right? If someone doesn't feel like they can be 100% who they are, then they're not gonna be able to give 100% of their performance, right? So um policy needs to back up um that environment that you're trying to create because that policy are those protections for those people.

Linda 1:01:27

Wow. Yeah. Well said. Thank you. Thank you.

Ricardo 1:01:32

If there's one thing that I'll always say at a union convention is the leadership is still very stale, pale and male. And unions have a lot of catching up and work to do to represent workers and the workers that they represent, especially at UFCW, like grocery stores, meatpacking plants, warehousing, very large, large new Canadian workforce, females. I I can remember, I found this policy book from the union UFCW from 1970 or something, and it was from our international presidents to the women of UFCW. And it was to the lines of for those women that wish to join the pants revolution and stop wearing skirts as our dress holder demands, please remember to wear pants that um to the effect that if I was driving a car and looked in my rearview mirror and saw your butt in those pants, make your butt look flattering. A union! Right? And so it's it's a slow crawl. And um and in the in in the reason why USFW outreach um exists um is that um there was a time when you people did not feel safe at union conventions to bring their spouses, their same-sex spouses, or or or come out as trans. And we've worked very hard to not only um create that environment at every single union convention, but to create collective agreement language that that fosters an environment for safety for trans workers, uh to foster an environment of safety for um to any two SLGBTQ person, uh, whether they want promotion or they want um gender-affirming care or leave. And those things are so important. And people might think, well, why is there a specific clause for trans people? Because even though the drain or the the cost to a benefit plan to get binders for for transgender uh workers is 0.001% of the benefit costs in the plan, they still say no, right? And politics plays a big role. And so not only do unions have a lot of work to do um when it comes to uh internally being more inclusive and reflective of the membership and the workers that they serve, but they also have to do a lot more work pushing the narrative at the bargaining tables for employers to start um protecting and and uh and helping the workers that are the most vulnerable. Let me pack your plans. Like, could you imagine being a gay trans person like just cutting the heart out of a cow? Like the plant in Brooks does 4,400 cows a day, right? And um just to have that weighing on your head in a super, super, super hyper heterosexual environment like that, then you have to bring awareness and stuff like this. So I think that um they have to do a lot better at the bargaining table, but they also have we need to do a lot better in our community spaces, uh, whether employer, whether union, um, the intersectionality is way more prevalent now than it ever has been in history. So um if somebody is in a unionized environment and they are having trouble at work, they are more often than not not going to their union. They're going to their community association or to their their the people within their community for help. And people are like, well, why don't you call your union? They're like, well, I didn't think they would be able to help me, right? So we're not doing a good enough job as um as a union and as as employers and as a government and even as people who were born and raised here in Canada to bring awareness to the fact that you know you have protections and rights in in your workplaces here, and you don't have to quit and walk away, right? Um to have gender identity and gender expression enshrined nationally in our human rights code is a very novel, unique, and powerful thing, right? Considering a lot of human rights codes in the US, like Texas, don't even have sexual orientation yet, right? Um or they're being removed, right? And so to have that enshrined in our human rights code and not have successive conservative governments removing that or attempting to remove it is a very novel thing. It's a very, very important thing for us that we have to capitalize on, right? Um so all these anti-trans bills that they're pushing through, they're using the notwithstanding clause for a reason, right?

Justin 1:05:50

Absolutely. Yeah.

Ricardo 1:05:51

They're using it for because they know it's

Alberta Bills, Erasure, And Resistance

Ricardo 1:05:53

wrong.

Bill 1:05:53

Well, and so let's talk about that because again, this is a novel thing that Canada has all of this enshrined in our in our national legislation. But we are seeing in our province and have been for the last couple of years now, especially as it relates to sport, right? Like one of those key areas that they seem to be really targeting right now is actually sport, uh, which is uh like again, uh um like we're seeing that you uh there's a greater emphasis on needing to identify or confirm your sex that you're assigned at birth. Um you're you're not allowed to um change your name uh or uh define your pronouns um as a as a student, as a young person. Um so much vilification of um gender-affirming care uh and all aspects of it, uh misinformation, um, smoke and mirrors, like just a lot of it, right? And then now even the most recent one uh obviously is like targeting the very symbols, right? Like when we talk about you need to fly the flag so people know that's a safe space, the response from the Alberta government is we're gonna make it so you're not allowed to fly the flag, right? Um like this is the this is the whole kind of nature of it all. So um, Laura, I'll ask you actually, from your perspective, what does that actually do to young athletes, right? I'm uh I'm a young trans kid. I wanna I wanna wrestle, um, and I'm I'm a competent wrestler. What does it do to a uh a young athlete um who's non-binary or questioning or still trying to figure out where they fit uh to have all of this happening around them?

Laura 1:07:21

Um generally I think they would quit sports. But um like with our organization, there's some kids also that don't want to be they're hiding still, they don't want to be found out because of the other people. There's, you know, even students or their families. So we we don't really shout out that we're you know affirming in that sense. We we say we're open, we're welcoming to the 2S LGBTQI plus community, kids and allies. So kids that come there, they're not gonna be um, they're not gonna be they're not gonna reveal anything they don't want to reveal because their friends are gonna be there too, and their friends aren't don't identify like that. But I see the kids that come, I mean I've seen the kids that quit the sports, and then I see the kim kids that now come to us, and they can they know that they're they know what we're what we're there for. They see it when they come to to join us. Maybe some reluctance at first because we don't just advertise that we're just for LGB, the LGB community, but um yeah, they're very happy when they're playing sports and they they just seem to shine, and their parents always say, Well, some parents have said that, you know, we've been looking for something like this for so long. Um, so-and-so didn't want to play sports for a couple years, and and you know, crying in the locker room because they didn't fit in, say it was a trans, say it was a trans boy, and then ended up in the locker room. You know, at 12 years old or 13 years old and just felt uncomfortable because somebody might find out. Not that they're undressing at that age in the locker room anyway, so it doesn't really matter. But the fear's there. Yeah, yeah. The fear's there. And I just think a lot of kids, yeah, that's why they drop out of sports mainly, because that's one place that they're not welcome. And I've seen, you know, going to other, you know, like hockey and um American football. Yeah, it's very masculine. Jeez. Like you see the parents, you know, the the dads, you know, screaming and it's kind of a scary place. So it's like, oh if I was, you know, a kid in that, in that um, you know, identifying any other way, I wouldn't never come out in those in those places.

Linda 1:10:03

Doesn't that make it be so scary?

Laura 1:10:05

Very sad. Like I remember going to school and you know, some kids committed suicide and you kind of realize later on, um yeah, like this was in the 80s, and I and it just made sense now, like thinking back. Oh, because you always wonder, well, why did he why did he do that? And then now it comes, and now you think, well, he couldn't be himself, and and my actu actually my first boyfriend was homosexual. And he wouldn't, he I kind of knew it after a while, but he wouldn't come out. He was so scared he wouldn't come out, and and so we broke up, and then I didn't find out until years later when he wrote me a letter. And and he was very upset, like so sad about everything. He was so sad that people would hate him, and yeah, so yeah, I just think it's it's important to have safe spaces. So hopefully there's more groups that will start up like this because yeah, as the parents would say, yeah, they just their kids are they want to go every weekend, you know, whereas they haven't wanted to go for so long. So and sports is good for mental health and exercise, mental health, you know. They don't you don't want them to have to go there and worry about. I mean, we don't care what washroom they use, go uh use whichever washroom you want, it doesn't matter to me. So we don't question anything, you know. They can be exactly who they are, and it's abuse and we don't want to and that's why we uh invite other kids too, because I don't want to say normal kids, that's not right, but you know, people that kids that don't identify that um uh in the two SLGB communities. Allies allies just because they it's good to build that um a community with the allies too, because then you see these kids and the parents and people come, you know, that are in the gym or playing, and they see everybody having such a good time and the kids being happy.

Linda 1:12:12

It's beautiful and hopeful. Yeah, so I just wish there would be more.

Laura 1:12:16

Because I know in the schools now, another one of the latest things with the government was I think it was they were taking away the wording welcoming and inclusive in the school.

Ricardo 1:12:26

Um that was all part up in the flag.

Bill 1:12:28

Yeah.

Laura 1:12:29

Yeah.

Bill 1:12:30

Yeah. All ideological, right? Yeah. The word they use is ideology.

Justin 1:12:33

I think Justin's. Well, sport is supposed to be uniting, right? You look at the World Cup right now with Canada. Um, sport is one of the last things that's supposed to bring everyone together without any differences, right? Um and with the clawback of rights, of human rights, um, and the erasure that's you know that is happening south of the border in the U.S. and our in our own province with our provincial government, um we're going backwards. We should be going forwards. Um and you know, we're here, we're not going anywhere, right? Like, you know, well, as I've said to people, you either hop on board or get out of the way, right? Because you can't get you can't get rid of us, right? That's it's you know you can't and sport is supposed to be uniting and inclusive, and the government, you know, provincial government is using that as a way to divide people. And their policies are not based on fact, they're not based on science, they're not based on anything. You talk to, you know, doctors, family doctors, you talk to, you know, affirming care doctors. They are on the side of, you know, trans kids, trans kids and and and queer kids, right? Um and they're trying to divide, they're playing politics with people's lives, and it is scary. Um, because, you know, growing up for myself, I can only speak from my own personal experience. Um, you know, I struggled with my own sexuality for a long time. I didn't come out until I was 23. Um and I I tried to hide who I was. I knew something was off, but I stopped playing hockey when I was 17. I was gonna play junior C hockey, and it was way over, it was way too masculine for me. Like it was just too much bravado. And I don't know what it was at the time. I do now, but um I faked a groin injury. Like I had a bad groin at the time, but I faked a groin injury so we I could get my parents' registration money back because I just didn't feel who I was. Um I didn't feel safe to come out. And um, like I can't speak for like you know you're a trans, trans community or you know, lesbians or queer because I identify as gay, but um you know, we need to talk to those people about what their experience is, right? Talk to those families that have trans kids that you know, our government, provincial government hasn't done that. Um they're just using politics to divide people so they can stay in power. And uh, Ricardo, you used the not you you said the notwithstanding clause. They are using that because they know it won't hold up in the courts.

Linda 1:14:54

Absolutely. Bring the hammer down with that notwithstanding clause.

Justin 1:14:58

Absolutely.

Ricardo 1:14:59

They have they have part of that big omnibus bill where they used it so many times. There's one bill where MLAs had to disclose that they spent more than $2,000 on on something and they had to disclose it and they wanted to remove that from legislation and they use a notwithstanding clause for that, right? So I mean like they're just basically using it to trample on all other aspects of the charter, which is not what that clause was meant for. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Bill 1:15:21

Ironically, the clause was actually put in there to prevent that kind of behavior happening, right?

Ricardo 1:15:25

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Yeah, and I hope if whatever, whatever in in whatever fashion this we do to the Supreme Court, and it will, um that the Supreme Court rules on puts some sort of um foundational parameters on how the notwithstanding clause can be used. And I think I think um the optimist of myself thinks that the Alberta government has opened up a door that that they will regret in the future, uh whether it's what they did to the teachers, or whether it's what they've done for the trans community, um or whether it's what they've done for a whole slew of things that they use the notwithstanding clause for. It's just and you're absolutely right, Justin. It's like they're not doing this out of any scientific basis or it's just all ideological and political, right? It's just and it you look at the affordability crisis we have here around the world, okay? And Alberta has done nothing to help everyday workers. Like we're getting a hundred bucks here at some point in time, I think, right? But we have the highest insurance rates in the world, the highest no rent controls, uh, some of the highest costs for for a lot of things compared to other provinces. And all of that is given smoke and mirrors with the distraction of the trans debate, right?

Bill 1:16:33

I'm gonna go on the record right now and to all of our UCP listeners, I'm sure there's a lot of them, uh, that Ralph Klein gave me 400. Yeah? Yeah.

Ricardo 1:16:42

So the hundred bucks is only for anyone over eighteen. Yeah, I know.

Bill 1:16:48

I know. My kids got the 400. Yeah.

Ricardo 1:16:51

I'll be able to eat for five days.

Bill 1:16:52

Yeah. I'll have one tank again.

Ricardo 1:16:56

So it's sending it's sending a message to not individual children that they're not safe at school, and they're not safe in in certain institutions. I think every two us LGBT person uh who's either they're out or identifying or going through their journey understood that there are places in this world that they're not safe to be in, right? But when you're just not safe in society because the government that was elected says you're not not not.

Linda 1:17:27

And where is that pressure coming to the government? It's coming from the far-right Christians. They're pushing, they've got organizations, and uh uh Nicolaitis, uh the uh Nicolaites, the education minister, he has had meetings with all those folks, and they've said, and that's where the book banning has come in, all of that kind of stuff. You know, Fahrenheit 451, Slaughterhouse 5. Those are the kind of books they're they're wanting to make sure that kids don't have anything to do with.

Justin 1:17:56

Well, and banning books and banning certain books only increases people to want to read them more. And it books that are banned, it showed their sales actually go up. Because if you take books off of a library shelf, people are just gonna go out and buy it themselves and read it. So it yeah.

Ricardo 1:18:11

In the States at Barnes and Noble, they actually had a whole section that said banned books. Beautiful in Chicago. I loved it.

Bill 1:18:19

I was I was in Edmonton about a month ago and hearing stories about students who are actually turning their lockers into banned book lending libraries. Um they would purchase the purchase the band books and then in their locker would set up an actual lending library for their classmates to just come and fun. Yeah, there's to resist. Yeah.

Laura 1:18:39

I think Margaret Alwood, she attacked Daniel Smith that one time and said, Oh kids, the book's online. Just they can read it online.

Justin 1:18:48

Well, let's go back to the prone, like using your given name, right? So choosing the name that you want, right? Youth in schools can't they have to be, they can't choose their given the name that their preferred name. Look at look at Daniel Smith. Her illegal name is Marlena. Yeah. So I will only refer to her as Marlena because that is her that is her legal given name. And I, you know, sh she won't allow people to be called by their preferred pronouns and names, well, then we call her Marlena.

Bill 1:19:16

Yeah, I mean the so I will say that I I lament um that the the way that it actually plays out, at least as I understand it in the legislation, um, is you cannot uh choose your name for a gender-related reason. Right. Um so you can go to your teacher and say, uh my name is Nicole, but I want you to call me Nick as a nickname. But I don't bum. Um but uh um and and if it's just, you know, because that's just like a nickname, it's got nothing to do with the fact that I'm you know AFAB but identify as male. Um like as soon as you do that, that's what triggers the sorry gotta talk to your parents, right? You just say my name's Nicole and just my nickname is Nick. They don't actually need to, under those circumstances, you know, write home and and get permission, right? But what I lament is that you you force people into positions where they have to figure out how to go through the friggin' calisthenics to be Nick, um, as opposed to just recognizing that like none of this matters. Um to you, it matters immensely to them, to their well-being, to their mental health, to their belonging, to their um to their gender euphoria, right? All of it. Like it matters so much to them, absolutely nothing to you, and yet somehow they have to do the work of trying to figure out how to beat the system to be themselves, right? That's the that's the tragedy at all this. There's a litany of ways to beat the system. Nobody really wants to talk about how the hell do you just stomp the crap, right?

Ricardo 1:20:50

Um what's important to understand and and what breaks my heart is that um these children have to look at themselves in the mirror every day and see who they really are and want to be or need to be, and uh forces beyond their control are stopping them. Like I don't I don't I didn't have to go through entire psychiatric treatments or even medical interventions to realize that I was gay or come out as gay. But trans people can come out as trans but still have to go through all of those processes to be affirmed in society as transgender. And it's not as if they want to do that. If they could flip a switch and change and be who they really were, I'm sure all of them would do it. But in order to be accepted and justified as a transgender person in society, the amount of medical intervention and and diagnoses that you have to go through is is is damaging in and of itself because a lot of the loops that you have to go through, especially now in Alberta, you've got to wait till you're 16 to get it.

Bill 1:21:53

Yeah, and the sheer number of people you need to parade your sense of self in front of in order to have them all justify that it's okay, right?

Ricardo 1:21:59

Like, when all that we really have to do as a society is make sure that that kid can look at themselves in the mirror and love who they are. Yeah. Right? And when kids can't do that, that's when I get violently defensive of trans people, right? When they can't look at themselves in the mirror and love who they are, and like they're not only going through puberty blockers, but then they have to go onto antidepressants and anti-anxiety medications. And it's just not necessary when there's people that and you know the pr the problem with the world today is that the people that are dictating these laws and these legislations are people that have a fridge full of food. Right? They don't they don't worry about the the important things in society. Like the Marxist in me, as I always say, uh, you know, once nobody cares about the the the frill until their material objects are are satisfied, like food, shelter, and housing. But the problem in the world we have right now is that the things like like trans identity and race relations and um and and and accessibility for disabled people, all of that cannot be accomplished to achieving material conditions until those things can be satisfied. And until legislation stops blocking them from being themselves, they'll never meet those material conditions. Look at what's happening right now. H is being transformed into a different uh ADF, ADF, ADM, ADM, ADAP. And still till today, they're not allowed access to the additional federal funding for $200 in disability benefits. For what reason? To just keep them in abject poverty. So I mean, this is another we should take another information, really.

Bill 1:23:35

Let's just do the midnight run. Ricardo's getting fired up. Full circle to what this podcast was about. I would I would like to actually pull it back. As I as I often have to do with you. Um so uh we we talked in the first half uh as well um about the idea that in some cases heater rivalry, one of the things that it did to it, portrayed a lot of the frustration and the struggle very honestly, even if it was uh a pale shadow, even um at least it was it attempted the honesty of it all. Uh we also talked about the fact that in a lot of cases it also portrayed the idea of um a hope that may not be the reality right now, but could, theoretically, with you know, some substantial shifts. Right. And I think we recognize around this table that a lot of the progress that has been made over the past couple of decades may not have been as solid as we would have liked to hope. We see it starting to claw back, we see it starting to to crumble a bit, it's it's under pressure, it's being attacked by the government. We know that the the world is not quite as it should

Hope For Queer Athletes In 2046

Bill 1:24:36

be. But let's let's end in hope, if we could. Um, 20 years from now, I'll call this sort of the last question, I'll ask all of you to answer it, and then I'll open it up to final thoughts because that's what we do here. Um but uh to start with, uh from each of you, in whatever order, 20 years from now, uh in the year what would that be? 2046. What do you hope young queer athletes won't have to think about anymore?

Justin 1:25:05

I I'll go. Um I for me as a hockey player, and it's portrayed in um heated rivalry. I had to actually I actually had to um bring it up, but uh or Google it, the name of Scott Hunter and Kip um in uh in Heated Rivalry. It's a side story of Shane and Ilya, but um seeing them embrace each other in the middle of Center Ace, I think it's at Madison Square Garden, or it's supposed to be Madison Square Garden with the New York team, um, and they're able just to be themselves and you know, they're able to embrace each other and kiss at center ace, right? Um, and you know, that you know, you know, if a team 20 years down the road, you know, wins a Stanley Cup and there's a player, an openly out player, and they're able to not worry about being themselves or portraying who they who their genuine selves are, and they're able to kiss their partner without any worry about their safety or anything like that, that would be amazing. And for people to see that and emulate, you know, see themselves in uh in those people that they idolize, that would be that would be amazing. The choir. The choir sung at the right time, yeah. She opens the door and calls the door again. Yeah, yeah. Sorry. No good. And I'll just say one last thing. Like it is Pride Month. Um Pride should be a celebration of who we are, um, the progress that has made, but it started as a protest. Pride is a protest, right? Especially now, right now, with rights being clawed back, and you know, um we just need to remember that and that it's it's a fight for equal rights, and we're still not there yet.

Ricardo 1:26:43

I would say in what did it say, 20 years? 20 years, yeah. Hopefully we're tired. Um that there's just hockey. There isn't men's hockey. I know a lot of women who could kick my ass. So if they want to play hockey, let them play where they want. There's just hockey league, right? And you know what? Maybe the diversity of body size and and and muscle mass and gender will add so much more um uh vibrancy and uh and and uh and and and so much more to the game or any game, right? When you have women and men and non-binary people and trans people just playing a sport. And that's what sport is supposed to be. It's supposed to be uniting just in the exertion of our beating hearts, right? So um that's what I hope to see in 20 years. It's just Hockey League.

Linda 1:27:38

Well, in 20 years, um I'd like to I I'd like to hope and dream that winning wasn't the whole answer to everything in sport. Uh I've observed it when with my uh uh grandsons uh that um you know when one of my grandsons would make the volleyball team, but he was never played during the the season until the game was lost. He made the team but he he never played very little. And that that there was it it seemed like there was no equity or fairness even at that level. Not not even anything around gender. But the whole sense in our culture that winning at all costs is is absolutely essential. I would hope that we would mature and to as you have said Ricardo that we would we would play the game for the pure joy of the physical uh you know capability to to do something and to the sportsmanship and that it wasn't always about that sense of such extreme competition that and winning that lots of young my grandsons just quit because that's what that was the environment and that had nothing to do with gender but but they just quit because they didn't feel like it was an environment in which they could flourish and that would be my that would be my hope.

Laura 1:29:10

I guess my hope would be that there would be more organizations that help that fight for trans rights in sports and more laws no notwithstanding clause that can be you that can no longer be used. And I guess that um athletes are judged by their passion and not so much by their gender. So trans women can play on men's sports or women's sports and you know they can play where they want to play and it's based more on weight and ability than gender I guess. Yeah.

Justin 1:29:53

Bill if I could add just quickly um we do we there is a there is an example a current realistic example of this in women's hockey so the Montreal Victois Victoire who play in the professional women's hockey league um they won the Walter Cup uh recently and uh Marie Philippe Poulain who's the women's best hockey player right now on earth Canadian um her and her wife Laura Stacy um actually won the uh they play together on the same team and they celebrated on the ice together winning uh the Walter Cup. So that is a very cool example of the progress that has been made and um have to use that as a shining example.

Bill 1:30:30

Absolutely yeah even in the even in the midst of the ongoing need to fight that we're not where we need to be yet there are still examples where like the hope breaks through right I think that's an important thing to remember always right it is not all human gloom. We just can't sit back and go mission accomplished. That's fantastic.

Final Thoughts And A Pride Blessing

Bill 1:30:47

Sacred band of thieves so here prepared to drown at the end of the night we always just run down the we'll start with Ricardo we'll work our way this way. Final thoughts it can be about anything hopefully at least somewhat related to what we've been talking about Ricardo usually goes rogue though so we'll see what happens.

Ricardo 1:31:02

I mean it's the last episode of our season and that's that's been fantastic. This is a great episode uh happy pride I think important conversations like this need to happen and come out in spaces that need to happen I my fear in the world right now is there's so much attacks happening on the 2S LGBTQ community that they're just like fatigued right I can remember when I came out uh when I was 19 in 2002 uh like same sex marriage wasn't even legal uh um actually the the month before or after I came out the police raided the gay bar here in Calgary and arrested everybody inside right 2002 and look where we've come down in 2026 and you know when same sex marriage took place and all these things came in the human rights code and there was a big advancement on diversity in workplaces I think that everybody let the collective guard down in very many ways right and and I and I worry now that society is not ready for our guards to go back up again right now because we're just getting to the point where um we were just getting to the point where we're comfortable uh in our skin in the world and so that's my fear and my hope is that um we're able to still we're able to still fight probably with a protest right it was black trans women that led the marches at Stonewall in New York City and and um and we have to fight and and and keep ourselves safe so that the kids can look at themselves in the mirror and love who they are.

Justin 1:32:33

Yeah as Ricardo said um we need to keep hope um there is a lot of fear in in our community right now and we do need that hope we need those examples we need those allies to help out we need those safe safe pick safe places um for our community and um just to be loud and proud but we need to show that pride is a protest and it is there is still a need to show that and to show that there is hope out there and that uh we're a community and that we're strong stronger together than we are apart.

Linda 1:33:08

Well I uh want to say how much I have enjoyed this free ranging conversation that we've had tonight it's been it's been really uh enlightening and um nourishing it's a word I often use nourishing I guess what it's underscored for me this conversation we've had tonight is that I work within the church and that um I'll never stop amplifying my voice and encouraging the people that I'm in contact with to amplify their voice as strong allies uh and when it comes from within the church uh I know a lot of times uh our voices can be dismissed but for us not to grow exhausted uh allies not to grow exhausted uh and to to continue to um in whatever way we can whatever form we can that we amplify our voices for justice compassion uh equity all of those things that are so important and so important to the God that I worship for sure yes I was gonna say something along the same lines we just need to I think now everybody's mentally drained because of what's happening in Alberta and then in the states and then around the world and yeah we just have to keep standing up and fighting and you know not let them tire you down and break you just keep on standing up and saying you know fighting for the community.

Ricardo 1:34:35

Yeah yeah that's the most important I will say I'll speak for Justin because um I I I just feel like the work that allies like yourselves do is so vitally important to us.

Bill 1:34:50

And you're right ally fatigue is a real thing as well but right now we do we just can't do it alone anymore right we just can't well before we wrap up I want to say as always uh thank you to Ricardo every every month I'm a little discouraged that he thinks this is our last episode I'm not sure what's happening on I'm not sure what he thinks is happening on July 17th but that's okay oh yeah I have it um I thought it was a point but most important but more importantly um uh thank you to Justin uh for being here tonight and for Linda as well I'm I'm really glad that you were able to be here tonight and Laura uh really uh really glad all three of you are able to be here this was the uh again nourishing would be an understatement conversation for tonight I always get the last word that's the great beauty of being the host uh so uh my final thoughts would be that uh I hope by now uh everybody listening has realized that this has never actually been a conversation about a television series uh and that this has been a conversation more about what happens when people who have always been there finally get to become visible and live authentically as themselves, whether they're on the ice or in the stands or in the locker room uh most importantly of all in all of the stories that we tell about ourselves and our world and who truly belongs. And until until that day comes that people can all be authentically themselves and belong in the story of humanity there are always going to be people who will continue to very Canadian reference here kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight. And so until that day comes just know that you are never alone and you are perfect just the way you are and God loves you just the way you are. And until next month whether or not Ricardo is here thanks for listening and we will see you next time. This has been Prepared to Drown. Friends many people are forced to spend a lot of energy hiding who they are but every person deserves the chance to participate fully in the life of their community without having to leave part of themselves at the door. The work of inclusion is not about giving some people special treatment it's about removing barriers so that more people can contribute their gifts their talents their perspectives and their humanity to the greater good in this world. And whenever that happens whether it's in a locker room or a classroom a workplace or a church we all benefit. The world becomes stronger when more people are able to bring their whole selves into it. So wherever life finds you today know that your life has value. Your story matters and you are loved more deeply than you know by a God who delights in who you are. So happy pride friends we'll see you next time on Prepare to Drowned