Episode 7: The Business of Being Human: Boundaries, Burnout & Belonging with Rankyn Campbell Artwork

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Built to Last

Episode 7: The Business of Being Human: Boundaries, Burnout & Belonging with Rankyn Campbell

April 15, 2025 • Season 1 • Episode 7

In this deeply human and insightful episode of Built to Last, Levi and Colby sit down with therapist and business owner Rankyn Campbell for a conversation that blurs the lines between entrepreneurship, mental health, and personal growth. Rankyn opens up about his journey from competitive hockey to running a thriving mental health clinic, and shares the real, often messy work of self-awareness, boundary-setting, and leadership.

Together, they explore the inner challenges faced by entrepreneurs—compassion fatigue, resentment, identity, burnout, and the myth of work-life balance. Rankyn offers a refreshingly grounded perspective on how values, self-care, and even frameworks like Buddhism and Stoicism can shape a more sustainable and meaningful business (and life). If you’ve ever felt like the renovation never ends—this one’s for you.

Links and Resources Mentioned

Rankyn on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rankyn-campbell-831b2814a/
Campbell Health (Rankyn’s clinic) - https://www.campbellhealth.net/
Self-Determination Theory by Ryan & Deci - https://selfdeterminationtheory.org/theory/
Secular Buddhism Podcast by Noah Rasheta - https://secularbuddhism.com/

Quotes Worth Sharing

“You can drown in 10 feet of water just as easily as you can in 100.”

“Acceptance is not resignation. You can have acceptance and ambition.”

“Resentment is often your first signal that a boundary has been crossed.”

“Self-care has been weaponized—it shouldn’t be another thing that makes you feel like you’re not enough.”

“We are meaning-making machines. Most things aren’t good or bad, we just love to assign meaning.”

Segment Breakdown with Timestamps

0:00 – Introduction and Rankyn’s Story
From hockey to therapy: how sport shaped his mindset
Lessons on confidence, regret, and internal belief systems

10:00 – The Business of Helping People
Starting a mental health clinic with little business training
Learning to lead, hire, and grow a team through therapy and coaching
Reconciling purpose-driven work with financial responsibility

17:00 – Compassion Fatigue & Boundaries
Recognizing early signs of burnout and cynicism
Why resentment is a boundary indicator
Holding two truths: caring deeply while maintaining limits

28:00 – Community, Culture, and Connection
Western therapy vs. traditional communal healing
Isolation, loneliness, and how culture shapes mental health
The role of belonging and interdependence in well-being

40:00 – Identity, Resentment, and the Entrepreneurial Trap
The slippery slope from passion to resentment
Making intentional choices and the illusion of freedom
Why some things are never “fully learned”

50:00 – Rethinking Self-Care and Rediscovering Values
How self-care became a checklist item—and how to reclaim it
Finding your true values through behavior, not just beliefs
Aligning calendar with what matters most

1:06:00 – Sprinting vs. Marathon Work Styles
Knowing how you thrive: short bursts vs. steady pace
Creating recovery rituals and protecting energy
Why being isn’t the opposite of doing—but just as essential

1:10:00 – Mental Health at Work: For Employers
The employer’s role in creating a psychologically safe environment
Trust, autonomy, and relatedness as foundations of workplace culture
Self-determination theory in building resilient teams

1:22:00 – Buddhism, Belonging, and Acceptance
Rankyn’s journey into Buddhism and misconceptions he let go
The danger of constant longing and how to break the cycle
How suffering often stems from resisting what

1:00:00

All right, really excited to get started again.This is another episode of Built to Last.And just as a reminder, I'm sure we'll somedayhave it all on the intro.We might now.But these are really good long-form conversationswith people who are an entrepreneur, whohave some leadership, or at least are entrepreneurial.And the idea is that we're talking about things that helpus build businesses that will last,but also we want ourselves as individuals.And a lot of the topics we'd like to talk about bridge the two.Especially those complicated questions where there's notreally easy answers.We just share experience.Because we're all kind of in a similar journey, but different.So our guest today is Rankin.And he's going to introduce himself,because we don't like to read the bio.And so we're going to pass it off and ask Rankinto introduce himself and what he does for work,what his business is, from whatever way he'd like to do.I'm relatively new.I've only had a few moments of Rankin's time.I know Colby has had a longer time.So I'd love to hear from your own self.How would you introduce yourself today?Yeah, thank you, Levi.Thank you, Colby.And thanks for having me on today.This is really exciting.I always just introduce myself as a human being first.I think that that's the way I tried to lead my lifeand connect with myself and other people.Professionally, I work as a therapist.And I own a mental health clinic, Campbell Health,which I employ a team of psychologists and therapistsand social workers.So that's what I do.That's what I'm doing now.It's not necessarily who I am.So I think sometimes we get--even our listeners can kind of get caught up in the titles.But I think that's how I would introduce myself.And I'm really honored and humbled to be here today.And congratulations on what you guys have both built as well.Thanks so much.Even just right off the get-go, it'svery validating to hear that way of intro,because we didn't really give you any preparation.We just threw it to you.But we recently had a conversationwith somebody who had closed the business.And the idea was like, I got to rememberhow to answer that question, because I am not,personally, what I did or what I do.And that's a really good--and unprompted, you kind of validated that saying,really important thought.I thought that was great.One of the things that I was kind of curious about to hear--because I've known you for a long time, but not well.And I'd like to know a bit about your journey from playing sportsand the choice to go in to become a therapist.I'd love to hear how that happened.Yeah, sure.I was fortunate enough to play a high-level sports growing up.And my parents obviously sacrificed a lotto make that happen.And that was an awesome time in my life,something I'm still grateful for.But for me, I was never good enough to make the NHL.And I think I knew that.I was a pretty high-level player.But there's different levels to that,just like there is in any industry, I guess.And for me, I was always a nerd.I was always really into school and really into learning.I come from a very blue-collar background.And I guess I was the sibling thatgeared more towards academia or medicine or education.Fortunately, hockey was a segue to helping that come together.And it was a segue into my university career, too,being able to play university hockeyand blend those two worlds.And then as I've aged, I've still tried to play recreationallyand be involved in coaching and things to give back.But my path was never towards the big leagues, I guess.It would be nice if it was.But was there anything in being in a competitive teamenvironment like that or having that high performance--is there anything you took as a transferable to the worldof business or therapy?Oh my gosh, there's tons.I think we could talk about it for hours.But of course, the team concept was really important,showing up confident and showing up reliable for teammates,knowing that your teammates could rely on you.That was something I had to build, right?That's something that you have to learn and fall on your face.But I think around 14, 15, 16, my confidencewasn't in line with my ability.I was actually a much better playerthan what I thought I was.And that, I guess, at the age--it's getting younger and younger now, but in that time,it's kind of make it or break it in terms of playing proat a really young age with hockey.And I learned that at that age, it's up to meto build that belief in myself and to carry that onto the ice.And I think there was a few times in my careerwhere when I was young where I kind of sold myself short.And that ended up leading to poor performancesin big moments.And kind of just leaving a little bit on the table,I guess, Levi.So leaving a little bit on the table, I was still good enough.But I guess I didn't give a few coaches like absolutely no doubtthat I was the best player on the ice.And those are kind of regrets that I'vehad to live with afterwards.And that was on me.I wasn't on anybody else.That wasn't on my teammates.That was just, like I said, me kind of holding backin those moments mentally.Although you could have taken everythingyou said in the last 90 seconds and taken it out of context.And I've heard it said by people who go into business,I had less confidence that I should have.I was better than I actually thought I was.My lack of my internal monologue not aligningto my actual ability caused me to leave something on the tableor underperform in key moments.I've heard that exclusively or specifically talkedabout in a business situation.So it's funny how that aligns.Yeah, definitely.And I'm curious.The journey into becoming a therapist,I know that hockey culture is a whole thing.And when did you start to realize,did you always have a knack for that level of self-awarenessand kind of introspective work throughout your younger years?And then what made you go, like, hell yes,I want to become a therapist?Yeah, absolutely.I think there's a couple of different layers to that.One of my family friends took their life by suicide.It was one of my dad's good friends when I was 16.And I remember that being a momentwhere I come from a rural community.It was really confusing.It was overwhelming for me.I was really sad, obviously, with it.It felt like we didn't really have a lot of answersas to why or how something like that could happen.And I think you need to remember that 15 years ago,the world was a lot different than even it is today.Even though I was a teenager then,I don't think that we were having conversations,men particularly, the way that we would now,at least in a lot of circles.So the world's come a long way in that sense, Colby.But so in that moment,it was more of a spiritual thing where I didn't know per sethat I was going to become a therapist,but I knew that I was going to go into medicine or education.I was going to work with peopleand work on this issue or this problem.I really didn't like the feeling of not knowing,felt helplessness, I guess.And then in sports, the other side of it isreflecting on some of those momentswhere I felt I had mental lapses.And I was pretty hard on myself afterwards.I wasn't suicidal or depressed per se,but I remember thinking,I remember being really critical of myselfand it really starting that introspectionand saying, "Okay, how can I learn more about who I amand how the world works?"I guess.And then from there, you continue to learnand fall and grow and you trust the process from there.Yes.Hmm.In a lot of different businesses,and when I think of therapy and I think of medicineand I think of the social side of the,I'm here to help people.And ever since I started workingwith different business owners,I've had to get my head aroundthe business of helping people.And I have to assume it's really challengingto divide the, I'm in this because I want to solve a problemand help people, but I also have payroll.And I would love to understandif you had any real business education moments,because it sounds like you got into thisfor the right reasons,but eventually became the business owner,not just an employee in it.And I'd love to have any current ongoing thingsyou are dealing with,but also you must have hit kind of a realizationat some point.Yeah, I mean, I'm still faced with it every dayof walking those two paths and trying to walk them,walk them in a way that's ethicaland also promote self-respect for myself,my team, my employees, right?They deserve to be paid.I think the starting point I've learned is thatprovide value, provide absolutely as much valueas you can for people and for the world.And if you do that and you do that well,there's going to be enough revenue.There's going to be,your business is going to find a way to flourish.So providing value kind of is the crux of that, I think.And the second part is I've had to do a lot of ongoing work.Like when you become a therapist,you have to do a lot of therapy yourself.You have to explore different parts of yourself.You don't just get the degree and thenwalk into a therapy room and be able to work with people.And obviously--I definitely thought you could,but I definitely didn't know that.Right, you have to look at,consistently look at and examine your own beliefsand judgments about the world and how it's structured.And also that might be beliefs about capitalism,what makes it good or bad, right?We hear a lot of it's very bad or it's evil,whereas other people think that people with no moneyare lazy or we judge them, right?So there's all these unconscious biasesthat could come into every part of running your business.And I've had to go back and constantly look at mine.So I still work with a therapist now.I have a team of therapists around meand I also have like business coaches and stuffthat can help me look at those and evaluate thoseas I grow.So I think that that's a very long window.That's a very long window.I know, yeah.You could ask any follow-ups on that.So I love that you're at it,like you have a coach and you have that.Did you go right into being a therapistand then become the business owneror did you come right out, you know,your shingle on the wall?We did you decide to have a business coach?A lot of people actually struggle with that.Yeah, so once I graduated,I worked for about a year, 14 monthsuntil I met certain requirements with my licensethat I knew that I could work independentlyand people could, there was part of thatthat was financial of course,that people could then use my license numberto charge private insurance and stuff.So there was a bit of a segue there,but I jumped right in after thatand I said that I will figure the other things out as I go.I'll figure out the business things as I go.I knew that I could live on not much money.I was right out of university, right?I didn't have a big mortgage or et cetera, et cetera.I was used to that and I knew I had to work ethicand my services were in demand.So I figured I could work on the other things as I wentin terms of how to recruit staff and how to interview,but I didn't even know how to interview people.Yeah, imagine the interviewer being a therapistthat'd be an interesting dynamic.(laughing)But one of the things that really I've had to learnto answer to your question.So I ran a couple of years on pure grit and instinctand a whole lot of good luck, right?And help from God and that along the waythat I think kind of gets you off the ground.But I was hitting the wall in a lot of areas,just things I didn't know, things I didn't know.And some of that was my own still at that point,even limiting beliefs.Limiting beliefs that were holding me back,holding me back from expanding my businessor taking more time off or having better boundaries,even with patients.Then there was that point and then I startedto really reach out and go down the coaching avenue.And that was a couple of years agoand I'm still doing those thingsand trying to reflect more and more.Because you hit that ceilingwhere you really hit the pain point.Do you remember, like you don't need to getinto any detail that you don't wanna talk about,do you remember any of those pain point momentsthat happened in the beginning that were unexpectedwhen you get into that first business?Was there a couple of moments where they wereeither like kind of hard learning lessonsor you had to make a pretty big pivot to get through it?The best way I can describe it is like,it felt like a renovation that was never ending.(laughing)Oh, I hear that.Right, you don't got it.Because psychologically, I tell people I work with this,we can do hard things for quite a while,but it usually has to have a start and an end, right?In order to generate hope.So a renovation, when we start off,we know we're gonna gut the kitchenand the carpenter tells us it's four months of chaos.Okay, and we're brushing our teeth in the other roomand it's chaos.And then maybe even if it extends to six months,we're still in it.But imagine a renovation that never ends.And five years later, we're still brushing our teethin the downstairs industrial kitchen or whatever, right?And that's the way that it felt.It felt like I was working as hard as I possibly could,but there was no end in sight.And I realized, okay, like, I can't solve this on my own.I need some help here to try to create some hope,some endpoints, some progress points.And over the last couple of years,that's really been helpful.So copy paste, let's take that segment.We're gonna add it to the beginning of our facilitationas we warn people what it's gonna be liketo go into a business improvement project of any kindand why you need to get to some winsand understand it'll be hard and keep some momentum.It's great.Yeah, yeah.Because even if you think about it psychologically,I don't know if you guys have properties,but you could start one renovationand as long as it's not a renovation, and as long as you tie it up and that house is doneand then you buy a property on the next Mondayand you restart the same process,you still feel much better and much more clear about itand energized and you don't have those kind ofburnout feelings or compassion fatigue feelingsor just feel like saying,"Frank, that's like put the house on the market."Yeah, yeah.I wanna follow that thread you just threw out there,compassion fatigue.I had talked to somebody a while ago,but even it's very different,but it's like mentorship fatigueor like I wanna be like, it's similar, I guess.It's like, I wanna help people.People ask me all the time for like free advice,but compassion fatigue sounds like a real thing.How do you manage that or prevent that or recognize that?A whole lot of trial and error.(laughing) All right, it's--No hindsight lessons to achieve that?Every move, every job has different difficulties.Being a therapist is difficult in a waythat being an engineer isn't, I guess, right?They each require different energy levels,but compassion fatigue sort of feels likewhen we give and we give and we give,but there's no progress or changeand we're really attached to the outcome.Okay, so when you attach,you're very much attached to the outcomeand we give and we give and we giveand we give those parts of ourselves.That's when we can wake up six months or 12 months laterand feel cynical, feel, we hear ourselves saying like,the world's a shit place now.People are bad.I don't trust anybody, right?It's kind of those global statementswhere cynicism comes upand I think that's a big part of it.The other part with compassion fatigueis understanding, at least as a therapist,you have a biased sample.People are coming to you because they're unwellor they're struggling with something or they wanna grow.So a lot of therapists get hung up, right?And they, over time, they get really burned outbecause they don't have enough exposure to the outside worldor people that are really not struggling.Like a family, it's like a doctor that,it's like an oncologist that over time thinks,oh my gosh, every single person has cancer.Right.You understand what I mean by that?Yeah.But if you're working in your office 50 hours a weekand every single person you see is in that bandwidthand then you go home and you go to bedand then you wake up and you do it all again,psychologically, you start to not be ableto tell the difference.Yeah.Wow.Yeah, there's a lot there.There's a lot there.My fiance's in one of the fieldsthat has the most compassion fatiguewith veterinary medicine.And I was reading somewhere that a lot of it's to dowith not being, not having the,or perceiving that you don't have access to helpto talk about those specific issuesbecause you're dealing with animalsand it's like, not that it's a thankless thing,but if you're in a leadership position at a vet clinic,you're not really talking to veterinary techsand your other colleagues about the thingsthat you're kind of going through.And then once again, if you're living in that world,waking up in that world every day, you're perceived--And the type of people who go into thatis similar to what you're doing.You go into it because you careand you're likely better at it because you care.So it's not like you can cut that part out.Yeah, and you don't want to.It's kind of having the appropriate amountand being self-aware enough.Like self-aware to do it.And sometimes you need to zoom out on Google maps.Like, you know when you have the little guyand you put him right in and he's on the street cornerand you're downtown Toronto and you're trying to look,you feel lost, but sometimes if you just zoom out,you can gain perspective.And perspective is really key, right?Is understanding you can gain perspective.Wow, I have made some difference and this feels meaningful.And the world is not, not everybody is badand not everybody is ill or addicted.And so that's one point on compassion fatigue.And then the other point is kind of your beliefs around,it's okay if you're okay and other people aren't.And what does that feel like to you?It's okay if your fiance is happy and productive at workand making a good living.And that truth can exist and the truth can existthat some patients cannot pay for their dog to get surgery.But holding two truths at the same timeis really difficult for us.Ooh, let's write that down, write that down.And that's something I've had to go back and learn.I feel that I knew that and I forgot itbecause it can feel like if I don't give this persona free session, for instance, there's a relevant example.If I don't give this family a free session,I don't care or I'm a bad person, right?It feels very black and white.Yeah.But in reality, I can hold a boundary in that situationand uphold that and still know when I go to sleep at nightthat like I care about people.I'm trying to contribute to the world.That's fantastic.And that's really hard.I mean, I'm talking on both sides of the worldbecause I'm still trying to remind myself of that every day.Some things are just never like learneda hundred percent permanently, right?Like we do a lot of culture onboardingwhen people start our team.It's like, there is no test because this isn't somethingyou just tick a box and you now know.It's something we have to continuously revisitand chat about and keep current.I often think about the people that don't doany sort of work on themselves or don't really even knowthat that world really exists.They're just kind of going through life.And I just, I can't imagine like the,standing on this rock and this is my beliefand that's never gonna change.And just being aware enough that you're,even if you do slip a lot, you still have that like,that idea in your head that there is two truthsin the situation and you can kind of pull yourself backa little easier every time.Similar to the renovation thing where,you saw the light at the end of the tunneland you've done it once, you can do it again.Getting some reps in.Yeah, I think it's hard to do our own work.It's scary, right?A lot of times we're critical of peopleif they're kind of stuck, right?But we have to remember that with this work,it oftentimes means challenging some of the beliefsthat we've held dear our whole life.And we've really built our life on, our foundation on,right?And sometimes when we go to therapy,well often every time your therapist is,should be kind of helping you to examine those beliefs.You don't need to let them go,but there may be a choice where you can challenge some,let some go, keep some.And that's really scary because imagine you believesomething about yourself or the world your whole life.And all of a sudden you turn 30and you decide to go to therapy or 45and you're like, wow, I no longer believe this.Or you recognize this was only a belief.So I've been involved in a lot of like peer groupsor mastermind type groups or business retreatsor like groups of people like minded in the business side.And often the term that comes out is like,oh, this is almost like business therapy.But then all of us are careful caveatsis like none of us are a mental health professionaland all that stuff.But I think I just realized why it feels so muchlike business therapy is because working with a peer grouptalking about common challenges is all aboutexamining your beliefs from a different perspective.I guess the root of it all is like,is what you hold to be true?Is it as bad as you think it is?Is it as good as you think it is?You know, what's holding you back?So it's unqualified business therapy,but it really isn't the root.It's all about reexamining belief.Absolutely.Yeah, I mean, that's where we can do some of our best workis with our peers, right?With other people that we can open up toand feel safe with.Feel that we're not gonna be judged or ridiculed or--Or they get it.Quick at home.Yeah.You mentioned the Google Earth analogy earlierand it reminded me of something that I used to dowhen I would feel overwhelmed.I bought this like big Hubble telescopekind of picture book and I'd go look at itwhen I would feel overwhelmed.And then realize that, you know,a lot of these things are very tiny.(laughs)That I'm dealing with.Yeah, that's really cool.That's a good idea.Because that book was very overwhelming.(laughs)Every time.(laughs)You're like, oh, well.(laughs)Yeah, what I'm dealing with right nowis there's a lot of people dealing with thatand you know, in the grand scheme of things,we will figure it out.We will figure it out.There's always some risk to giving upor like to letting go or changing some of our beliefs.And I think that's why it's hard, Colby.That's why we stay stuck on that rock.That analogy of like, I'm gonna stay on this rockmy whole life, even if I know the wateris slowly rising over the years,I'm gonna stay here.Because there's always risk and consequenceswhen we change or update our beliefs.For some people, their family doesn't talk to themor their wife leaves them or their kids no longerwanna be in a relationship with them.Or it means they finally decide to leave that jobor they finally stop working every single Saturdayseeing patients until 10 p.m.And what does that mean for their identity?So it's not easy work, I don't think.Have you, you mentioned peers and community a little bit.Have you, like, when you look at other cultures,like I remember this story or study,I was watching or reading something a long time agoabout there was a, what country was it?Maybe it doesn't matter.But there was a tragic thing that happenedin a country somewhere in Africa.And a whole lot of therapists went overto help with the situation.But that culture couldn't understandwhy they were talking to a strangerinstead of surrounding themselves with their community.So they ended up leaving, they're like almost feelinga little unwelcome, just trying to help.Do you have any thoughts around the loss of communityand the importance of community as like, you know,we're very independent feeling in North America.Do you have any thoughts around that?Yeah, absolutely.I mean, like even therapy in and of itselfis a Western idea, right?The way that it's structured, I was like,you call, you go sit in this office for 16 minutesor you jump on the call and then, okay, time's up.Right, so that's a Western idea.I think we've always related through talkand through sharing stories and through trying torelate and connect with one another.But we are living in the loneliest timein the history of our species.So I often wonder, you know,if people were better connected,if we were better listeners,if we just all had a few more of these skills,I would maybe be out of a job.Right, and that's not to degrade, you know,mental health professionals or people that go,of course there's a place for that, you know, absolutely.But we are seeing a lot of people access talk therapythat are not quote unquote mentally ill,which is a good thing, right?Some people believe that's us as a societytrying to elevate into a higher consciousness,explore ourselves.That's I think is partly true,sort of like what we're doing right now.We're exploring parts of ourselvesthat maybe our grandparents wouldn't have done this,especially with two strangers, right?On mine.(laughing)My grandfather wouldn't have went to work on a laptopfor nine hours a day and didn't really talk to anyone.Rather his day was built around family, cohesion,the community.If somebody came into his junkyard,he had an auto salvage,he would have sat and talked to them for a half hourand actually listened to like,oh, they're doing well or they're not doing well.So I think it's probably a lot of factors,but I mean, I think we're definitely a lot more isolatedthan we used to be.And with the world getting a little more challengingand you look at the kind of the statethat specifically Canada is in where houses are expensiveor like a hundred thousand dollarsisn't a hundred thousand dollars anymore.And that pressure toyou know, be as independent as everyone wants tois a lot.Yeah.Yeah, we have to wonder if those expectationsare still realistic, right?Especially if they're internalized, right?And that's when we start to really negativelymaybe evaluate ourselves if we haven't hitsome of those benchmarks that society says we're supposed to.Yeah. Have your own car, live in your own house,not have roommates, live outside of your parents' house.Like, you know, I think one of the most valuable thingsI did, it didn't fix everything,but I had the chance to live in a different country.I live in Europe, but it wasn't a poor country by any means,but the norm was, you know, a couple of generationsto a household, at least a couple of families to a building.Like the idea that you would have your own spacewas just not really the common expectation.And so here, it's just like, oh yeah, that's different.I didn't realize that was differentuntil I saw somebody else thinking different.Yeah, cool.Yeah, I bet that was an awesome experience though.Yeah. Just different.Oh yeah, people are different.These are all just, again,when you can really look at them as like rulesor beliefs or norms, but that's all they areis being able to kind of separateand set your own values and your own coursefor what it is that you think's important.Somebody once told me, and again,I never could attribute these, but it's mind over matter.But if you mind it, it matters.Like you can't change that.Or not easily.You can't change that easily.I think it's probably the right way to say it.I'd love to go back.You said this a while ago and I just made a markbecause it came up in a couple different circlesaround personal boundaries.And in the business context that I was talking to somebody,it was around people casually asking them,or actually their worry was,because they were a naturopath.And somebody else was at the conversationand they were like an electrician.So they're like good, small businesses.And then they'd be at a partyand people were afraid to ask them questions.And they're like, well, you know,and it's like, well, you know, you get that all day.You don't want to talk about that.And they're like, yeah, but then, you know, that's fine.I was a chef by trade.It was like, people ask me for cooking advice all the time.It was just never a thing.People ask me on how to use AI right now all the time.Like it's, and in some industriesit seems to be more than others,but those are all dittable for your expertise.Have you had to map out any kind of,like do people ask you those questionsor avoid that kind of conversation?Is there any boundary with you on either teamor family friends?Yeah, absolutely.And, you know, even as a therapist,it's still very dynamic.It's still something I'm working onand still trying to adjust or figure out as I go.I've had times in my lifewhere I've done a really poor job of ituntil there was consequences.I'm answering my emails at all hours of the nightand that's having effects other places, right?The feeling I would watch for,oftentimes our feelings come firstand we can recognize them, but resentment.Watch for resentment.Yeah.Okay, because, and I'm trying to show up and giveand that's a big part of who I want to be,but I noticed that at times I was giving my time,my energy or money, sponsorships,but after I gave it, I would feel resentful.Yeah.And that was a cue to me, okay,something needs to change on my endbecause even though resentment feels like it's about you,it's actually about us.We need to change something when we feel resentful.And I think rather than give a prescription of like,log off at five o'clock and don't answer your emailsat this time, like we all work differently.We all have different values.Watch for resentment and see if it's coming up in your lifeand then try to work backwards from there.I'd love to share advice I giveand you tell me if it's hogwash.Because it's one of the few things I tell a lot of,because I do a lot of thisand people do come to me with some questions,just not because I'm an expertbut because I have lots of different perspectives.I've heard a lot of different versionsand resentment comes up a lotbecause when I last closed a business,I feel like resentment was one of the final stagesand for me, I consider it one of the most toxic pointsthat I'm not sure all the time without help,you can come back from.Like that's the burnout level, careful.And for me, one of the most important thingsfor me personally is that if you're doing hard thingsor doing those late nights or,because sometimes you need it.I believe that really great things are only doneby people who work extra hard.In some, it's just understanding.But it's making choice.Is what I'm doing something I am choosing to dobecause I want to do it.And that's, if I was to doand I'm not a very good meditator,but it's like I look at all the things I do,I'll do an all-nighter and I'll be sending emailsto Colby at 1 a.m.And it's like, am I choosing to do thatbecause I'm interested or I'm excited about itor I feel like I have to do that for an external factor.And so I've always,say I'm an expert on TV,but I feel choice and resentment.Closely tied.You nailed it.I couldn't have said it any better.That's a great,that's a great very like,evaluator kind of, right?It kind of shows where you are.A great gauge I guess is the word I was looking for.I look, it's very similar,it's like, am I giving out of guilt?Yeah.Am I giving out of guilt?Because if,and we're not always gonna bad about a thousand,but like if you notice this patternof you're giving out of guilt,next will come the resentment.We're picking up the phone because we feel guiltyor whatever rather than we really want toand we really wanna engage.It feels good to help.It feels good to authentically show upand gift that bicycle to a kid.Yeah, I see that a lot in talking to business ownersaround like at a certain point,you're doing what you're doing to make payroll,to make the customer happy.You're not doing it for the,especially if you're not driven by money,which a lot of the,I would say most of the people I talk about own a businessare not in that business specifically to make money.And so it's really,when did you lose your,the illusion which I'm sure you're aware of is,most people went into business for freedomand then they start to lose the freedomthey don't realize they've stopped making a choiceand then the resentment.Like I, this whole thing, I just see it.I don't know if I've never not seen itin a group of more than four or five people.Somebody has been dealing with this.It's almost, I mean, unless,it's almost like a right to entry, I guess.I think you kinda gotta go through, at least for me,you have to go through these different stagesat each stage of growth, I think.But if you can have that growth mindset,then when you come out of it, there's,you can feel empowered and catch it the next timeand start to create some momentum, right?But if you have to have the humilityto be able to look in the mirror and be like,okay, like I don't really know what I'm doing hereor I feel resentful every time this is happening,that takes humility too.And vulnerability to talk about it.Yeah.Exactly.And you can see, like, with business owners,when they go through those tough timesand they do become resentful,and this could go for absolutely anybody.When you go through things, you become resentfulor you get a chip on your shoulder about certain thingsand you come home and the extreme version of thatmight be somebody that comes home from warand they've gone through an experiencethat nobody in their life can relate to.Totally.And you kind of shut yourself off to everybodyor you pick up this kind of negative outlook on the worldor the world that you're now living inand you've kind of experienced trauma in your own way.And it kind of, that made me think ofwhen people go through those things,have you seen common threads across the peoplethat you've worked with and that your staff have worked withthat have successfully brought peopleout of that perspective?Yeah, definitely.I think the first part is like validationand connecting with that person, right?Helping them understand that what they went throughwas difficult or what they're going through, right?Is difficult, it's real and it does affect them.And I think that right now, a lot of timesentrepreneurs feel that they can't take up any spacein the world because somebody else might have it worse.Yeah.Okay, and there's a lot of guilt there.And some of that comes from anti-capitalist rhetoric.It comes from social justice, all of those thingswhich are good, healthy perspectives.But sometimes it can go so far as I have entrepreneursthat come across, come into my officeand they haven't talked to anyone for three yearsbecause they feel like they don't deserveto be stressed about this because other peopleare maybe struggling with homelessness or addiction.So what they're doing is they're comparingbut you can drown in 10 feet of water,just as easy as you can drown in 100.Oh yeah, yeah.Okay, and you're 15 feet and my 25 feet,I can't tell the difference when I'm in 25 feetand you're in 15 feet, but you're looking over at mesaying, "Franken, you should be able to swim finebecause you have 10 feet less than me."But neither one of us can touch.That's a great point because similar to the war--Still driving.Like the war veteran coming home,the business owner going through the thing,the 13 year old that got their phone taken awayis that as big of a catastrophe across the board.Absolutely, and I mean, over time,because our reality is our reality.So when we get dumped for the first time and we're 16or we go out and the girl or the guy doesn't show up,that feels like our world is ending maybe.That we're no good, that we're unlovable,that we'll never date again, right?Or that we're a loser.Of course our dad or our uncle can say,"Oh, there's 100 fish in the sea."And they know, right?They can sort of contextualize it,but oftentimes they diminish the feeling, right?And if you're a business owner,even though you might not end up homeless,but you just had to lay off 35 peopleand you just had to pull all your accountsthat you saved for 20 years,that sure feels like 25 feet of water to me.Yeah, yeah, yeah.It reminds me, and I still get kind of chills thinkingabout it realizing, so we, in our peer group network,we did online kind of just group calls,just come in, the line will open for six to eight monthsafter COVID hit.So that first summer, spring, summer, fall of COVID,and it was just like an open hour that somebody knewthere was a group of people that had accessand there was gonna be people there who just got it.And it turned into, because I thought it was gonna be,and I joined a lot of them,people being able to talk about their challengesand get solutions and who can help me with this.And it did do some of that, but what interested mewas it also became the only place in their entire worldthey could come in and say something was going well.And it's like, because they were not in any partof their world where they could applaudor talk about growth or success in a worldwhere everybody was going to shit.And so it was an equally valuable safe spacefor celebration.Yeah.That's really important.That's really important, right?And there's not near enough of that in the world,no matter what the celebration is, I think.Yeah.I do kind of want to segue a little bit on a topic.I'm dealing with a lot right now.Are you good, Colby?I don't want to steal it.Yeah, no, this is just love.So you understand kind of from the business owner.And my understanding is your practiceisn't all working with business owners.You do a lot of different things.But for me, the common questions I getor the common challenges I have is,what does self-care look like?I'd love to know some of the common themesof what you suggest or have worked for people around.And I'd love to go one layer deeper than just exercise.But what are some of the real specific self-care thingsthat people have created habits aroundor really seen some meaningful results?Just to start adding to some of those ideas,because especially for people who don't feellike they have a lot of time.How do we dispel that?I think self-care has been weaponized.It feels like another--Please say more on that one.Right, I think.And again, my profession or my industry, I guess,is sort of responsible for that.And I think all things start from good,but sometimes they can just get taken out of context.So weaponize is maybe a strong word,but it feels like self-care has become another taskthat we have to do and we should do.And it becomes another thing on the checklistand another thing to prove that we're good enough.Wow.We actually are starting to derive our valuefrom self-care checklists.I think for anyone is kind of starting off and saying,"Look, you don't need to jump in the bathtubsix times a week to take care of yourself."It shouldn't become another task.When I start off with people,I try to get a gauge of what are their thoughts like.Have their thoughts, remember how I was explainingearlier that when we're burned out,we have compassion fatigue,our thoughts become what are called likevery global and stamped and all encompassing.So we start to think instead of some people are,some people are lazy, which is a true thought,we start to think all people are lazy all the time.Okay, that's what happens in a business owner's mind.That's when they come to you and they're like,"I hate all my employees."Or customers.Or customers.So that's the first sign of kind of seeing if it's there,but the second part is kind of gettingto the core of their values.What is it that you care about?Who do you wanna be?Why are you going to the gymif it's not one of your values?Or why are you getting caught up in having to go to the gymfive times a week?If really your only goal is to be,what's really important to you is to be physically fit enoughthat you can play on the floor with your grandkids.Maybe you can achieve that in another waybesides killing yourself at CrossFit six times a weekbecause you feel you have to.Mm-hmm.So getting clear on the business owners' values,who are they and who do they wanna be?So just micro pause there.Is there any favorite ways or activities or methodsyou would recommend or take people throughto find their values?I mean, I've seen a few, I've used a few,but I just love,like how do you help people find their actual values?It should be some like deep work.Oftentimes it can be an entry wayto kind of get down to it is because,I'll slow down, how can I tell you?Well, that's why we have no time of it.We don't have to speed up.When people identify their values,there'll often be a huge misconception,misplacement between what they say and what they do.Totally, or what they think they should say.So I might get on this call and I say,I really value family,I value honesty and I value sports,but I'm not doing any of those things, okay?So ask them what they value.They'll probably come up with those trademarksof what they think they should say.Then ask them, okay, what do you do?What have you done in the last month?What does your calendar look like?There's probably gonna be a big discrepancyand then see if you can uncover any discomfort there.Because what's gonna happen is we feel,if that's really truly still a value,we'll feel uncomfortable.Because I can't tell you straight facethat I value the relationship with my parentsand I value my parents,but I haven't seen them in six months.If that's the case and I tell you that,then you're gonna be able to help mechange some of these behaviors over here.Yeah, so it's not a,I see a lot of people who just like,circles, circle words on a sheet.I was like, no, no, that takes more than that.Yeah, it takes more than that.Remember when the high school teacher,the easy, like there's recall,which is like a multiple choice test,but how much harder is it to sit downand write out about our thoughts and why?I value, I value, I'm using familybecause it's top of mind,but I value learning about new cultures and here's why.Here's why that's important to me.Here's what I feel like and I do.And here's how it shows up in my--Here's how it shows up.And here's how I've gotten away from it.Yeah.Because if you show the cost to them,because like, then you can actually highlightthat discrepancy or that discomfort where it's like,okay, Levi, you're telling me that you really valuelearning new languages and learning new cultures,but judging by everything you've done over the last year,you haven't really done that.And you can throw it back.Is that still something you value?Because our values are allowed to change.Would you also say that,like, because this is something that I've struggled with,is do I have these values or these goalsfor myself or for other people?And being able to, you know,being able to differentiate and then do something about ithas been difficult.So it feels scary to do it.Because, you know, your perceptionand your certain circles or, you know,is it, it's super important, but why?And that answer kind of scares me.Yeah, well, remember how you were saying earlier thatwe like, we stay stuck on the rock,even if the water's rising.It's scary to jump off the rock and swim to another rock.Right, so when we identify our values,most of us are told what to care about when we're kids.Why do we care about hockey?Well, my dad had it on the TV.Why do we care about maybe a value of being marriedto the same partner our whole life?Well, we went to church and they told usthat's what makes you good.And then our teacher at school told us,you should always be honest.Don't lie to the principal.So our values are downloaded us,downloaded into us like software, right?They're coded into us by our parents, our family,our country, our culture, core capitalism.Then over time, they tend to become rigid.It doesn't make sense.So that's where we get our values.I value sports.Yes, I enjoy it, but because I was born in a Western countrythat was affluent enough to let me participate in sports,yada, yada, yada.It was something that guys were supposed to do.Maybe if I was born somewhere else,I would not have any of the same values that I have.But you can keep some of those values.You can examine them.You can pull some new ones in.You can get curious about new ones.And that's why it's kind of always like,what do I care about now?Who do I want to be now in this moment?And it's generational too.Like the whole thing, we talked about the valuesof the Western nations around like independence.But then you see some of the newest generationslike ownership isn't as valuable.From what I read, because I don't have any kids,a 15 year old to 20 year old right nowjust doesn't care as much about owning thingsas currently a 40 or 50 year old does on the average.So there's generational and there's how you corruptand there's all kinds of outside impactsor inputs on your values.Yeah, definitely.And just, I'm probably getting long winded,but a lot of our values teach uswhat makes us good or bad.Okay, we tend to think very binary, right?Like if I leave this relationship,that makes me a bad guy.Okay, so that's a value that's having a subscribed value.So a lot of the messaging we get as kids, as adults,even as adolescents, right?Is around what makes us worthy, what makes us good or bad,what gives us inherent worth.Okay, and then if we don't kind of examine thoseand critique them and update them,we can stay really stuck.Yeah, I think this came from a brief,like brief pre-call we did a while ago,just making sure we understood the details.But there was a concept in my head around,we've talked a lot about people coming to you with challengesand there's mental health, there's depression,or there's imposter syndrome,and there's just challenges to overcome.But there's another side of going to a therapistthat I talk to a lot of peopleand that more people should go,like I don't have anything wrongor maybe the reason, but I don't know it.I'm not looking to fix something,but I am looking to find out how I can optimize.I'm looking to like just pure performance.Instead of fixing, I wanna like, what could I be improving?And I find it's when I talk to people about goingto see help or therapy or a professional,it's always tied to fixing brokenversus optimizing for better.And I just, how do you in the industryor you personally think about thatand how do we see it more as like a pre-care?Yeah, well, absolutely.What you're describing is true, that's happened.That's the medical model in practice, right?So medical model has lots of benefits.If you have cancer, you're sick, you go,you get the diagnosis, the treatmentuntil you hopefully don't have cancer.Same with therapy and that's kind of how it came aboutin the early 1900s and then we're still kind ofin that rhetoric, which is helpful to a point,but I really try not to see anyone,regardless of where they are, how they come into my officeas fixed or sick.They just are, they're somewhere along the continuum.Even if they're really depressed and they're here,I might just be here, but it's a continuum.We used to see it as a box.Now we're really moving to that continuum.Okay, so I think that that's the first thingand the second thing is like, I'm openly talking about,you know, I've been at this, even the self-exploration thingfor 14, 15 years, I'm still learning so much about myself.I think just understanding that that's okayand that's really awesome.Okay, a lot of therapists stop doing their own work.That actually ties to a lot of people who are good.Like we stop doing our own workand turn around business things.We help users approve.You know, the technician stops on themselves.The cobbler's kids gets no shoes,you know, that type of thing for sure.When we think about our, you know,and in the last kind of question,I was saying that not everybody has to go to the gym.If you think about physical fitness,you have to exercise for eternity to maintainor to be physically fit, right?You wouldn't go to the gym for 12 weeks and then--Until there's a pill for it, yeah, no.(laughing)I see them advertising those Olympics.(laughing)Responsive today.I think with our mental health,it doesn't need to be a therapist per se, but it,you kind of got to have the same mindsetbecause the world is changing.Your relationships are changing, you're changing.The challenges we face are changing.So like, for me to go to grad school and then say,okay, I know everything there is to know,that's not a good highway to jump on.Right, right.And I've gone through phases where self-improvementwas the sole focus of everything that I was doing.And I got burnt out on that,on something quote unquote positive for myself.And it was always getting betterand being hard on myself so oftenand critical of myself so oftenthat it became a negative thing,which is interesting, seems counterintuitive,but I had to take a break from the books and podcasts.Yeah, I'm trying to think there's,I can't, somebody said, but the like,all great things overdone or overplayedcan become weaknesses or bad things.Like even like, my escape, my relaxation,even when I was busy was reading fiction.Like I'll just, I could completely relaxand I read a book, but then I keep metricsbecause I now read on a tablet.And the year that my business closed,my first business closed in 2016,I read 75 novels and mostly overnight.It's like, so this good thingthat was like a relaxation disconnect,you can, in hindsight, see like,oh yeah, that should have been a sign.That is not normal.Yeah.Yeah.I had, I did, for me, that thing was,doing something physical,whether it was mountain biking, golfing,going to the gym, doing Nordic spa stuff,like really extreme things on my body.It was the only time that I could kind of detach my brainfrom my body, it felt.But then that even got me thinking,it's like, am I escaping too much?Like, am I looking forward to escaping?Yeah, I ask that often, yeah, myself.Every day?Yeah, and I mean, again, I'm today years oldin the fact that I'm still figuring this stuff out too,right, but I think there's a big,well like, being versus doing, right?So we're told that we derive all of our value,especially in corporate, or not corporate,but capitalist society is, is like,how do we derive value for ourselvesby doing, by producing, by accomplishing?Okay, so we're ingrained with that message.Generally speaking, I know every family's a bit different,but, right, so that puts us very heavy in the doing aspect.That's helpful, right?It helps us pay our bills and get the houseand make sure that we can provide for ourselvesand our family, but it doesn't leave much spacefor just being, just existing,which is part of what it means to be a human being too.And I don't think, at least I've never been ableto get those scales magically in the middlewhere I'm perfectly doing and perfectly being.There's gonna be different seasons,but for most of us, at least if you live todayin today's society, if you're so much in one areaand not the other, it becomes problematic.If you're meditating for 40 hours a week,you probably can't pay your billsand you're probably hungry when you go to bed Friday night.So being versus doing is a good metric for entrepreneurs.There's gonna be seasons where they're really heavyon the doing, the building, the business,buying the properties, right?But in time, how are they kind of counteracting thatwith some time just to be?No metrics.They pull out the mountain bike,leave the Apple watch at home, just bike.Okay, because we're even taughtto not trust our own instinct anymore.We have so much data.We wake up in the morning and we say,wow, I had a good sleep.Well, right-I was at 8.6, just saying.Again, I'm kind of posting-Done.One at it, right?And I love that and stuff, but like,I can usually tell when I, at my age,if I woke up and I slept like shit or I slept well.So leave, if you're really consumed with the data,just leave the watch in the other room,get back to trusting yourself.We know when we're hungry, when we need to move a bit.I just don't get my dopamine hit the same.(laughing) Yeah, so does that make sense, call me?It does.So I suppose like if there was frequently,frequent healthy questions that we can ask ourselvesto bring us a little bit back to center againwhen we're off freaking out about something.Is there some things like the being versus doing,that's a very helpful concept.But is there a few questions or thoughtsthat have been helpful to you or helpful to your clientson kind of bringing them back to centerfor lack of a better?Yeah, for sure.I think, as you guys can probably tell,I try to use a lot of analogies.I think that it kind of can be helpful,but when I work with clients,I try to ask them, especially entrepreneurs,like around all this conversation around burnout and stuff,I ask them like, are you a sprinter or a marathon runner?Okay, some of us really thrive,we're pulling 14 hour days for six weeks straight.We're not burnout, we can do it.That's when we're energized and we feel goodand we're productive and, okay.But we probably can't do that for eight months straight.And if you're a marathon runner,maybe it looks a little bit differentwhere you go to work at nine and you take a walk at noonand you log off at six,but you don't need the recovery timethat a sprinter needs.So even when you're working with your team or another team,I would try to get them to be aware of themselvesand don't just give them all one prescription.Find out how they thrive.Okay, and then from there, they can find out, okay,if I'm a sprinter and that's how I do well,well, the way that I'm gonna bring myself back to centerafter this six week project and I get it offis I go 10 days, no email,I'm really gonna just get away.I'm not gonna be able to be contactedor whatever it looks like for them.Maybe they get away and they have fun,they go skiing or they go to their kids' hockey tournaments.But it's finding out, it's giving yourself permissionthat everybody works differentlyand everybody thrives differently.Okay, and how you come back to centerand how Levi comes back to centerand how I come back to center is totally different.And how we work and produce is totally different maybe.And that's okay.I'd love to double down on it.So one of the things we do,probably more than half of our projectsends up being helping companies become better employers.Better able to delegate, better able to structure.So when I think of that in our own company,how do you suggest employers do a better jobof helping their teams with mental health and with resources?We offer resources, we offer,it's a part of their benefits package,but I always am wary of that line of like,when somebody's going through a really hard timeon our team, where's that line?How do we be helpful but not...Overstepping.Overstepping but also dangerous.Like we don't even try to play experts on TV and this stuff.But you do wanna help it.So I always struggle, and I know a lot of other companies do,is like I want to be progressive, I wanna be safe,I wanna be supportive, and I wanna invest in the mental healthof our team who are all virtual, all working on their own.There is no water cooler, we're working in challenging projects.Any advice you give on how we can,as a company, as an employer,bring mental health support into our team?Well, it sounds like from what you're sayingthat you're already well on the way, right?Everything that you're doing is really good, right?You're not trying to be their therapist,but you're also showing that you care.I think the biggest thing is developing trust.Developing trust, that takes time, right?And if you develop trust every day, every week,and you show up and you guys are authentic,even saying, "Hey, I'm stressed today,"or "I'm having a bad day," naming it for ourselves.And developing trust, when six months or two years goes byand that employee does go through somethingor their partner is sick or their kids are having a hard time,they're gonna know that they can go to you.You don't need a certain checklist or HR manual.I guess what the challenge comes in is...Trust.I do think we're doing a pretty good job of it,but we're still at a size where like Colby and I are thereand can show up and we live this and kind of breathe.But we help a lot of organizationswhere that's not the reality.It's not a one to 10.It's a three or four layerof management supervisory structure.And so from that perspective, aside from,is it just making sure you're still good trainingdown through the best practices?Or are there any other like systems or methodologiesor best practices that we could suggest or go tofor those larger or harder to make it a human naturepersonality thing?I would go back to...My God says to go back, even as I'm listening to the question,go back to that idea that I said that two truths can exist.A company can care deeply about their people.And that doesn't mean that they're responsiblefor that person's mental health or physical health.Assuming that they have a safe work environmentand things of that nature, which I'm assuming.They're not contributing to it,but the world is naturally stressful.Business is naturally stressful.Naturally, families break down and people get sickand people get depressed.And that's all part of this.And I think that reducing the stigma is importantand just building that trust at the different layersof management that people feel safe to be a human being.Okay, that's important.But at the same time, companies,companies are responsible for creating a safe workenvironment where people can show up,not face discrimination, do their tasks and be compensated.Okay, that's the agreement.And I think that a lot of managers are feelinga lot of pressure to really support their employees.And it comes from a good spot,but there's no shame in just having that conversationand saying, talk to your doctor, talk to your therapist.It's a good point.It's a good point.Right, because, and again,it probably sounds, coming from a therapist,probably sounds very cold,but that is the exchange that an employee is makingand that a business owner is making.And that's important.I think that if you talk about company culture,that's a different conversation about how you can helpemployees thrive, which gives them a better chanceof being mentally well and flourishingwhile they're at work and which leads intooutside of work too.Yeah.All right, I have another jump, Colby,unless you want to tag on that.Oh, does that make sense, Levi?Oh, it does, it does, yeah, yeah.I think what I, the caveat to all that is like,there is no easy answer.I think the important part is like the long-term investmentinto your culture and your best practicesand who you have on your team and the way you show up.So it's validating.You know, I was hoping for a quick pill,but it's validated to know that it's not.(laughs) And when I left university, I tried,I was frustrated that a lot of theorydoesn't come into practice.It kind of sits on the shelves, right?And you do all these studies and then you leave universityand you're like, well, geez,that thesis is collecting dust, right?And I tried to build out my company cultureusing what's called self-determination theory.And that's a very well-researched psychological theory.And the theory says that if people have three ingredientsin their environment,similar to how if a plant has certain ingredients,it will grow, naturally it'll grow.There's three psychological needs that we haveand it's competence.So that means feeling challenged at work,feeling challenged by our environment,but not feeling like it's so out of reachthat we can't do the work.Okay, so that's like when you sit downand the basketball net is at eight feetand you have to jump to put it the ball in the hoop,but it's not at 20 feet and it's not at four feet.Okay, so that's competence.That makes people--It's a great way of explaining that, yeah, great.The second one is autonomy.The more autonomy you can give staff,which takes trust, is very important to how we thrive.So I felt good today because I had autonomy over my schedule.I knew when I had to go to work,I knew I had to jump on this calland there was nobody over the call right now telling me,Rankin, it's 125, you better be on that next call by 135.Trusting your team to run their own schedule,to book their own things with some parameters,but giving them autonomy.And the third need is relatedness,which is another way of saying,feeling safe in relationships.Ailing that, if I fall, Levi will be there.And if Levi falls, I will catch him.If Levi has a great day, I'll be there to celebrate him.And if Rankin has a great day, I'll be there to celebrate him.And if you can build those three,those are three psychological needs.You think about them similar to protein, carbs and fat.When an organization has those three needs,naturally human beings will thrivebecause we're designed to grow.It's not saying there won't be any problemsor there won't be any weeds, but naturally,if companies can develop thoseand embed them in their company culture,chances are their team will do well.They will thrive at work.There'll be less burnout.They'll be happier and they'll be more productive.And I did my thesis using this study.So I studied it over these studies.There's a hundred of them.Ryan and Dita, the authors.But if you can do that,that will help the mental health of all the staff.Yeah.Your job is to create the ingredients.Then when life happens and there's individual differencesand one staff is really depressed,as a leader, you have the trust developed,you can go to them and say, listen,they know they're supportive,but you need to talk to your doctor.Okay, so maybe you could think about that too,because I tried to build my team on thatbased on the fact that I studied that theoryand I knew that my staff would be more productive,more resilient and want to work for me longerif we set it up that way.So it's, first of all, I'm gonna steal thatand we're gonna use it.Because we talk a lot around,some of the work we do is operationalizing values.So a lot of people talk about business values,but how do you actually put them into operation?And so we have some meeting best practices and agendasand we have an onboarding presentationand series of things we do.Like right now, 45 minutes of our onboardingof a new team member is the five dysfunctionsof a team from Pate L'Ancioni.And there's four or five elements to that onboarding,but now I'm like, oh, that's one.There's now two slides in that onboarding deckand there's gonna be one mentionedin every monthly town hall meeting that operate,because that completely maps over what we do,but I've never actually used or heard that language before.And if you do go YouTube, Google,like those two guys have published dozens of studies on it,they followed sports teams.We'll put it right in the show notes too.Like I like having these links,because then I use them to go back five.I just learned the theory, I didn't invent it.That can be helpful.And then it's acknowledging the true truth.As a business, you create those ingredients,you support your staff.I'm also stealing two truths.I'm using that already like tomorrow.Anything and I'm again, I'm an art of academia.I'm a big believer that anything that I say,I learned it from somebody else.So take it, use it.You don't need to put my name, you don't need nothing.It's more fun if I steal it, so I'll just steal it.I'm glad we went there.Really, that is a very transferable, good thing.I'm glad we got there.I still wanna shift us over,because there was one word I wrote downthat I wanted to make sure,and it's a half humble, vulnerable moment.I know absolutely Jack about Buddhism.And I studied a lot of stoicism,and I know the words and I know what the Buddha looks like,but that comes up a lot when I look you up online.And I would love, I'd love your thoughts on it,but I'd also love for somebody to just give me the Coles note.I know we're an hour and 25 minutes inand it's opening up to a potentially broad topic.Explain Buddhism.Well, from my context, I think that if you,because it feels like you understand it,and I feel like if you really understand something,that's the person who can explain itin the shortest amount of time.And I will say, even before you jump in,this is something that's been creepinginto my life a little bit.And just from a curiosity standpoint,not from a, I haven't dove into it yet,but I have a kind of a growing curiosityaround the whole thing.So I'm super curious.Maybe it's a teaser.Maybe it's not a full like one-on-one.It's just like, what's the teaser?I'll definitely, and I love,I've really gotten into love following Ryan Holiday's work,which I'm sure if you love stoicism.He's one of my favorite authors.So I'll try to explain Buddhism like that.So I'll explain how I came across it.Okay, so I was always had,what I would say is a good relationship with God.I prayed a lot as, I was never somebodythat went to church every weekendor followed any strict religious ideals.But I had a faith base that I felt that,was definitely from my mom, but part of me from my family.So I created, I had that relationship with God,but over time in my life,I felt that I was trying to pray a lot of thingsin my life away.Okay, so a family member sick,we pray for them to get better.Businesses going downhill,we pray for the money to come in.I have a pimple, I pray for it at the bus, right?So it felt that I was oftentimes in this state of,now I know the language for Buddhism,but is in a state of longing,of wanting something to endand wanting my present to be different.Okay, and even though my life was quite good,I was either in university or playing hockey and,you know, like I had lots of joy and I wasn't like, hold up in my room or anything,but it felt like a state of longing.Like there was always a problem, so to speak,that needed to be fixed, needed to be prayed away or fixedor discussed and over time it started to get really taxing.Okay, and I wasn't really present.I was wishing or longing that I was in a different placein a different state and that I was in a different state. I was wishing or longing that I was in a different placein a different state and that things would be different.So I had a lot of resistance to Buddhism.I had a lot of beliefs about it because I thought that,oh my gosh, my initial gut reaction was like,if I become a Buddhist or if I start following these ways,I'm gonna get lazy or I'm gonna accept everything.I'm not gonna wanna change anything.I'm not gonna kind of work on myself or work for the good.I'm gonna trust there.Over time, I was able to just challengeand let go of those beliefs and realizethat those were just limiting beliefs.Still with me?So I'm-- Oh yeah, man.I'm waiting for the big fix.I can't talk it that way.And I started just looking at it from authorsthat made it really accessible.Some podcasts, which are on my LinkedIn,Noah Marchetta is the big one, but he always says like,use Buddhism to be a better whatever you already are.For me, I can still have a relationship with God.I don't belong to a certain church or anything,and I can practice some of the thingsthat Buddhism teaches us, which is about acceptance,which is about non-judgment of other people,is being okay and not immediately evaluatingsomething as good or bad.Because that's another thing that I would do.So when information enters our brains,we immediately evaluate it.This is good, this is bad.So I get off the call, I'm like,oh, I think I did really good.Or I think, wow, I bombed that podcast, right?We evaluate ourselves.Or we evaluate, wow, I got dumped, this is terrible.In reality, we don't really know.We don't know how things are gonna turn out.Most things are not really good or bad.We just love to assign meaning to them.Buddhism asks us to take a step backand to realize thatwe are connected to everyone and everything in the world.And we are meaning-making machinesthat evaluate everything as good and bad.And if we can catch ourselves and learn to not do that,we will over time develop a greater peace in our life,a greater acceptance.And like stoicism, it accepts.We don't know what's gonna happen when we die.We don't know if there's a heaven.We don't know when we're gonna get sick.So rather than try to avoid some of this pain,it's just accepting it and asking ourselves the question,why does this make me so uncomfortable?I guess.And like, it's a mouthful.It's definitely a mouthful,but it's kind of like trying to explain Christianityin three minutes, right?So-No, I really got a good intro.I think I don't, yeah.I can see the value for sure.Yeah.But if you bring it down to like a 10 second thing,it's that acceptance,like one of the big things I learned is like,acceptance is not resignation.So I can accept that there's people in the worldthat are suffering, that there's people that I can't help.There's people that, let's say,can't pay for their services.But that doesn't mean that I'm going to resignand do nothing.It's just starting from a place of acceptance.Okay.It's starting from a place of non-judgment,of knowing that we're connected,that all things in the world are connected.And we are constantly longingand grasping to be somewhere else.And I did it on the call.Even as I was doing the call,I'm looking at the clock saying,okay, we're almost done, right?Or my back's starting to sweatbecause I decided to wear a sweater, which was stupid.Right?And then I'm having a thought like,you were stupid, why'd you wear a sweater?You'd be so much more comfortableif you would have wore the polo that you had picked out.And we're grasping,we're longing for things to be different.But if I can catch myself in the momentand just accept the fact that my back is sweatingand the call is going to end,I'll stop suffering.Wow.Okay?Because the suffering comes from the judgment of myselfthat I'm saying I'm stupid to wear the soft wearing,but the sweat is not gonna kill me.Yeah.Does that make sense?Yeah, more than makes sense.I wanted to feel like the acceptances and the resignationis a really important line.I just don't wanna ever forget that.But then I just wanna reflect,when you told me some of the things that readlike Buddhism is belonging,and I think that it sounded like common sense,but it was so much more impactfulbecause you told me from your perspectivewhy you had resistance to it.And I aligned, it's like, oh yeah,no, I'm always wishing for something to be different,even if it's innocent.And then, so like, oh, it's not common sense,otherwise I'd already be doing it.But not all common sense is commonly applied.So I think there's that too.And think about,I was using examples in my lifewhen I was saying like,I was praying to be done in grad schoolor praying for my grandmother to feel better, right?Which is, and again,there's nothing inherently wrong with that per se,but we also do it on the other sides.I can't wait until I scale my business to 50 people, right?I just, when I finally can afford the Jeepinstead of the Chevy, I'm gonna be happy.It's this constant state of perpetual longingfor something else and kind of believing the lie that like,once we get that thing,we'll be satisfied.Okay, and kind of,that's what keeps us on the,it keeps us in,the whole idea behind Buddhism is to end suffering.I guess I probably should have started out more principle.Yeah, but now I have a better definition of sufferingfrom a different lens, I think.Like the four principles are like,we suffer and we suffer because we grasp and we long,but there's a path to being able to end suffering,which is what the Buddha teaches.So if you take that path,over time you can become enlightened.I'll let you know if I ever get there.(laughing)Okay, so.Yeah, I--If I ever get there, I'm not calling you two guys.I'll be somewhere else.I, so Colby, I've hit a listwhere everything else I would ask takes usfrom a really nice deep end to a really shallow pool.So I hit that, like, I'm gonna put it back to rank it,unless you have something else you are dying to chat about.And opposite to that, everything that I'm gonna bring upnow is just gonna take us even deeper.So we should calm down and schedule a part two.Well, I was gonna first ask if, so we often do this,but is there anything that, you know,we've now had a pretty good conversation.I've really enjoyed some of the insights.Is there anything that either you really wanted to chat aboutthat we didn't chat about,or questions that you wanted to ask usthat you don't get a chance to chat about these topicswith other people?To be honest, I didn't really know what to expect.So I thought it was a blast, right?I thought it was a blast.I had a blast.I think that I would just remind your listeners, like,it's okay to be right where they are.That could be the starting point, right?Like, I'm still finding my way.I'm finding my way as an entrepreneur.I'm trying to find my way as a therapist.I'm trying to find my way as a partner, as a son,as a brother.And I guess if we step back,like that's really what it's all about.Okay, and I try to remind myself of thatwhen I get into that state of longing or graspingor beating myself up or comparing myselfor really attaching to the outcomes,even attaching to the outcomes of the people that I see iswe're all kind of zero today, zero years old, so to speak.Yeah.Which still, like, even as you say that,I love the line in my head that is,that didn't exist before of like,acceptance isn't resignation.There is two truths in our worldwhere we can have acceptance and ambition.Oh, look, I'm already using it.(laughs) Exactly, exactly.But like, and it sounds simple, but at least for me,I need to constantly kind of bring it to the forefront,right, because we live in a polarized, black and white world.We're told that you should, this is good, this is bad.This is right, this is wrong.It's very all or nothing.And that leads to a lot of suffering for all of us.Yeah, you said that it should almost sound simple,like, I don't think I've ever even told you this, Colby,but I have a journal, it's been 15 years.It's leather bound and it doesn't get journalingon a regular basis, it gets like,ideas that I want to capture.The title of it on the inside,and I wrote it when I was 22,to 20 some years ago, complicated simplicities.And it's really driven too, like,so it comes up in themes of a lot of stuffthat I write and think is like,it's the complicated simplicitiesor the things that should be simple that are so complex.And the two words together have been a resonating themethrough a lot of different phases.So I like that, that really ties it all up for me.Yeah, well, and I mean,we book a second chat, we'll have to dive inif Noah says I'm gonna put you on the spot.Yeah, I know, I want to be ready for that.You got three minutes to explain the poem.(laughing)Oh, sorry, you're breaking up, you're breaking up.We're on the biggest lessons, but I mean,in the show notes you can include Noah Roschettais a really accessible, he's out of the States,but he has a podcast, very easy to listen to,it's called Secular Buddhism.Oh yeah, but definitely.That's where I learned most,but that's where I definitely started my journey into it.And it's really accessible for anybody listeningand start there.But yeah, I love those types of things,especially on like the two to five hour car drives.That's exactly the head space I made.It's like, yeah, it's part of the being versus doing,I think is mine, it's like, what am I gonna listen towhen I wanna be being?And then that's the type of content for me, yeah.I think I selfishly wanna call it donejust cause it's such a sweet like kind of bow on it.Very natural, yeah.Well, thank you so much both of you guys for having me.I really appreciate you guys reaching out and take care.And if there's anything,anytime else you guys wanna chat, just let me know.Yeah, and we're gonna put your contact information,at least your handles on thereso other people can find you as well.Hopefully they reach out and say,find some aligned values and wanna have a chat.Awesome.Great, all right, and that's a wrap.Thanks, Rankin.