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Built to Last

Visibility with Intention: Build a Brand That’s Bigger Than Your Business with Marina Byezhanova

May 30, 2025 • Levi Lawrence and Colby Jardine • Season 1 • Episode 10

In this episode of Built to Last, Levi and Colby sit down with Marina Byezhanova, a globally recognized personal branding expert, entrepreneur, and speaker, for a deeply candid and energizing conversation about identity, growth, and what it means to show up as a leader.

From navigating business failures in public, to building thought leadership that transcends a company name, Marina shares hard-earned insights that resonate with anyone who's wrestled with visibility, reinvention, or the pressure to be “the face” of a business. The conversation touches on the power of personal brand strategy, how to lead without burning out, the evolving role of AI in marketing, and why stacking joy is one of Marina’s guiding principles.

It’s a fast-paced, vulnerable, and insightful exchange. What starts as a professional conversation quickly becomes a powerful connection between peers building businesses with meaning.

Links and Resources Mentioned
Marina on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bmarina/

Marina’s personal branding agency: https://www.brandofaleader.com/

Entrepreneurs’ Organization (EO): https://eonetwork.org/

Ryan Holiday, Ego is the Enemy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju8WoRcR4Qo

Quotes Worth Sharing
“You didn’t build a personal brand. You were the spokesperson for your business—and that’s a big difference.”
“I only say yes to things that give me energy. If it drains me, I delegate or delete.”
“When you build your brand right, it will always be bigger than your business.”
“We are often building visibility, but if we fail, we fail in public.”
“Stacking is my life philosophy—bringing my whole life together, instead of splitting it apart.”

Segment Breakdown with Timestamps

00:00 – Meet Marina: Life, Travel & Leadership
Introduction to Marina’s story: Ukrainian roots, Canadian immigration, global work
How she started Brand of a Leader and built a remote-first team
Her passion for EO and thought leadership

06:30 – Leading Without Burnout
Marina’s hack: only doing what energizes her
Delegation as an act of self-awareness
Family, parenting, and the joy-centered life design model

14:45 – Finding Your People (and Yourself)
How EO helped Marina feel like she finally “fit” as an entrepreneur
The impact of peer groups on personal and professional growth
Redefining success and shedding outdated friendships

22:00 – The Real Personal Brand
Why most people confuse personal branding with just being visible
How to separate yourself from your business
The difference between being a thought leader vs. a company spokesperson

33:40 – AI, Identity & the Future of Visibility
How Brand of a Leader embraced AI as a co-creator
The rise of Answer Engine Optimization (AEO)
Why storytelling and emotion will always matter more than tech

44:30 – Leadership Through War & Hardship
Marina’s deeply personal account of the war in Ukraine
How her EO Ukraine forum became a source of strength and perspective
Hiring Ukrainian talent as a meaningful business decision

56:00 – Making Decisions Through Joy
Why fun is Marina’s true north
Lessons from speaking, stacking, and leading high-stakes EO events
How aligning to joy creates more energy, clarity, and success

1:06:00 – Thought Leadership and the Power of Perspective
What makes someone truly stand out in a crowded space
Why “just post” is the worst advice for founders
How real introspection creates authentic differentiation

1:00:00

Welcome to Built to Last, the podcastwhere entrepreneursshare real stories about thetriumphs and challenges ofbuilding enduring success.Hosted by ColbyJardine and Levi Lawrence.Right.Well, welcome to Built to Last.I'm really excited.For those of you who haven't listened toany others, this isgoing to be one of the firsttimes I'm talking to somebody who I'venever met or have any context in.I've said jokingly in past conversationsthat this is not justa podcast, it's alsoa chance for us to have meaningfulconversations and build realrelationships with people wedon't know because makingfriends over 30 is rare.So I'm excited to dive into it in thisprotected, distraction-free space.But I am going to pass it off to Colbybefore we pass it off toMarina to introduce herself.Colby, I know you've bridged theconnection here, so anyintro points before we pass itover?Yes.Yes.I met Marina.It was in Brazil that we met first.That was my first EO experience ever, andI'm sure we're goingto talk about EO todayat some stage.We had a conversation about LinkedIn andpersonal branding, and I had this kind ofpreconceived idea that Ididn't like for myself.You've since turned me around on thatwhole thing, and myLinkedIn presence is a lot busierthan whatever I was doing before.Thank you for that little push, and Iwant to learn more about it.Oh, thank you for it too.I've been trying to get him on thatbandwagon for three years.Yeah, so is her.Not you.I want to learn more about your businessand some stories ofpeople that you've workedwith, and I just want toknow more about your whole life.We get to spend a fair amount of timetogether when we go away onthese trips, but I'm goingto let you introduce yourself as youwould introduce yourself up to this date.What's new?You can kind of lay the groundwork.Well, first of all,thank you for having me.It's an honor and pleasure, and I'mexcited to also get toknow you better as we havethis conversation and to getto know you, Levi, as well.I like what you mentioned, Levi, about itbeing hard to makefriends after 30, and Ithink that maybe that's going to be oneof the topics we can discuss.I find the conversation about friendshipis coming up a lotamong people and somethingI'm really curious about as well.My name is Marina Bejanova.I was born and grew up in Ukraine.That's the verydifficult to pronounce last name.My family immigratedto Canada when I was 16.That was my first ever time on a plane.I couldn't understand how people aresitting on the plane andeating and drinking whenwe've got clouds underneath us.I remember that feeling in that moment.Developed a lifelongobsession with travel.I travel quite a bit right now for work,for EO, for pleasure.I own a business which iscalled Brandable Leader.It's a personal branding agency for CEOsand for founders, Brandable Leader.Thought leadership is just a topic thatI'm really passionate about.Because marketing is completely changingconstantly, and especiallynow with AI and a big shiftfrom SEO to AEO, something we can chatabout as well, I'm fascinated by it.My business, we justcompleted four years.Four fiscal years.We're still young, but we're very mighty.We grew very fast.We grew to 24, scaleddown to 17 thanks to AI.That's another story.All part of growth.We've worked with CEOs in12 different countries now.My team is completely remote.I'm a mom.I have two kids.One's a teenager.That's quite an interesting experience.Another one's nine years old.That's me.Not bored.Not bored at all.I know. No.No.You know what's really funny?Because often, I'mconstantly taking on new things.I'm very involved with EO, withEntrepreneurs' Organization.I have multiple roles right now at theglobal level and chapter level as well.I'm taking on five roles next year.People go, "What's wrong with you?It sounds like youalready had enough to do."It's what fuels me.So no, not bored.That kind of does lead...My first question is, we always got to becareful with the word busy.But you do seem very busy.You're traveling a ton.I'd love to dive a littledeeper into your business.How are you managingeverything right now?Walk me through that.I've got hacks.If you want some hacks, I have hacks.I'm very intentional with what I do.We're here for the hacks.Hack number one, I only, and I mean only,do things that give me energy.They don't take my energy.In the business, there's nothing I dothat takes my energy.The moment something does, I right awayflag it to myco-founder and I look for, "Whocan do this?Who would derive energyfrom this if it's not me?"Same with any otherprojects that I take on.Let's say within EO, there are a lot ofopportunities for cool stuff to do.I only take on stuff that energizes mebecause more energy givesme, then more fuel to doother things.It's same with my children.I'm very self-aware of things that Idon't enjoy as a parent.Most of the typical games,like playing, I don't like.There are certain games Ilike and others I don't.I really struggled with this and I wouldforce myself to be agood parent and do it.Until I've learned that, no, if I go allin on things that I doenjoy doing with my kids,then again that gives me energy.I don't get us tired and they also feelthat I'm thereexperiencing actual joy and notpretending and forcing myself.That's my hack number one.I have others too, butthat's an important one.You found a way to enjoy andget energy from paying taxes.Just ...No, but at least I'm not the onecalculating them and going through thepains taking process,right?At least the actual pain of that isoutsourced and then outof sight, out of mind.It's a very timely question, yes.Wow.Okay.Then you mentioned ... How many roles areyou in with EO right now?Right now I am in three.Right now I'm leadingall of our global learning.I am leading the chairing the EO WomenGlobal Summit, which isgoing to be in Montreal inJune.I'm so excited.Then I'm also co-chairing strategicalliance partnershipsfor our chapter as well.So three, one chapter, two global.Can I ask, is EO your first peer group?We've talked about afew different peer groups.We've had lots of guests and it's notalways been just EO, butwhat was your first introductionto that world?How did you first hear about that model?First to quickly preface that.I had it difficult.I had it hard as an immigrant in Canada.Coming here as a teenager, it was rough.I constantly felt like I'm weird and alot of people would callme interesting, but notin a flattering way, just interesting.I had a very hard time making friends andjust always felt that it was weird.I had another business that I was growingat the time and wewere invited to an event,which was essentially a test driverrecruitment eventthat EO had put together.I didn't know where I was going, but justlike there was a coolevent, great speaker,great venue, so I went.I was blown away.It was really as cliche as it sounds.We heard from a lot of EO members, but Iwas sitting in a taxigoing back home thinking,"I found my people.I am by far not theweirdest one in that room."In fact, I felt pretty square, not asinteresting as others.Not as interesting.Also, just in EO, the fact that peopledon't pitch to each other.They were asking me questions, beinggenuinely interested andnot looking over my head tosee if there was somebodymore valuable to them passing by.That feeling was great.I said, "I must join this group.Sign me up," and then learned that thatwas not doable becauseI had a young businessand so we wouldn't qualify.This was 11 and a half years ago.They said, "Well, don't worry.We have a new program.It's called Accelerator.We're launching it in Montreal.We're launching it this year.You're going to be in the first cohort.You're going to be inthe learning day quarterly.Hopefully, we're going to help you scaleand you'll join EO."I thought that sounds horrible because Idid not want to sit inthe classroom quarterly.I also thought they couldnot step away from my business.I did not want to go back to school and Iwanted to hang out with those people, notwith those other people.I was very unexcited, but I figured if Isay yes, they mightinvite me to some of theirevents.I said yes and I went.The first day blew me away.It was some of the most powerful,high-impact, tangible learning that Icould have experienced.They absolutely fell in love with theAccelerator program.I'm a huge fan of it.Within a year, with double their revenue,with no increase inheadcount, qualified for EO.That was 10 and a half years ago.Yes, to answer your question in avirulent, winded way, thiswas my first peer-to-peergroup and that's how I found EO.I love it.Finding your tribe, even taking itoutside ofspecifically business peer groups.I was in a conversation the other day, itjust feels so rightwhen you find other peoplewho just get it at all levels.Even like I was a chef by trade for 10years before I went into business.You get in a room with people whounderstand that world.It's just the conversations change.The way you socialize andthe way you talk to each other.It's just soimportant to have that circle.I also feel like I've been surrounded bypeople who intimidate me.I very often walk into EO groups and feelthat there are alwaysso many more people.As much as I seem to be doing a lot andI'm successful by manystandards, but every timeI walk into an EO room, Iwouldn't say imposter syndrome.I don't like the concept, but I do feel alittle bit intimidated.I love that feeling because it inspiresme to one more, to seta higher standard formyself, to keep growing.It's cliché.They say that we're the sum of peoplethat we surroundourselves with, but it's true.It's so true.It goes back to the concept of friendshipand keeping thoseolder friendships too thatmight not serve us anymore.I believe that those groups areexceptionally important.That's actually why I joined the BridgeChapter because I knewfrom the outside looking inthat it was a really high quality groupand I wanted to be intimidated.And I am.That was a good question, Ant.Working.Yeah, it's great.Four years, you got a fresh business,semi-fresh business, andyou mentioned that you reallyaudited the things thatgive and take your energy.All the time.How else have you ... Because it seems,and correct me if I'mwrong, but it seems likeyou've built a life that is intentionaland that you want right now.Because you are traveling a lot.I do see your family at these events andyour son's becoming an entrepreneur.He sold me appetizers that were alreadypaid for in Brazil and Ihappily paid and I'd payagain.You made a killing.Yeah, he made a killing offof stuff we already paid for.Talk to me about life design and do youfeel like you're doingwell in that regard fromdesigning and being intentional with yourlife because it'ssomething I'm still strugglingwith?I'm exceptionally intentional.You know, when I started my firstbusiness, my daughter, who is now 15,which is mind-blowing,she was 10 months oldand I got judged a lot.A lot of people would tell me or imply orshare stories that kind of decide what itis that you're going to sacrifice.That you're going tohave to sacrifice something.Either you're going to sacrifice being apresent parent or you'regoing to sacrifice goingto business something you'regoing to want to sacrifice.I didn't want to sacrifice because to meI really wanted to bea very present parentand have a very close relationship withmy daughter and now both of my kids.I now have two.But I also am exceptionally ambitious andcareer-oriented and Ilove to travel and Ididn't want to sacrifice any of that.I struggled for a very long time becauseI got a lot ofjudgmental comments, especiallyfrom other women and especially fromother women who didn't work.A lot of judgmental comments.Are you traveling again?Who's with your kids?Oh, will I choose to be a full-timemother as though I'mnot a full-time mother andthere are no times duringthe day when I'm not a mother?All those silly comments, but they reallycut very close to heart.Fast forward now, you know, my daughteris 15, as I mentioned,my son is 9 and I seethat I manage the wall.I have an incredibly close relationshipwith them by design andalso, you know, businessis doing great andprofessionally I feel very fulfilled.Now what I do with that is one of myfavorite concepts is anotherhack that I have is stacking.And I talk about it so much that nowpeople are mentioningback to me, which feels veryrewarding.That means like I've really incorporatedit into my narrativeon what I talk about.Design means just merging my life, mylife's together andI'll give some examples.So not choosing it's thiscompartmentalized than that, but tryingto bring them together.The first time I did that, did it waswhen I brought mydaughter who was actually shewas 9, same as my son now, I brought herto an event where I spoke.It was an EO event.It was in Ottawa and I spoke and it blewher mind, especially atanother speaker was ShaquelineLa Bonté, who is like a multiple time,like gold medal winner from the Olympics.I think like fourtimes or something crazy.And so people were like coming up for anautograph and theywere of course EO style.Everything was very fancyand cameras and everything.And so by correlation there, my daughterdecided that I'm famous.I'm very, very, very successful.That really worked in my favor.I've been milking that I'mfamous thing for many years now.That's a separate story.That's number one.Number two, I do not miss it.My daughter is a competitive dancer and Ido not miss a single competition.I am always there.She's blocked on my calendar.And while she's doing her thing, unlessshe's on stage, I'mworking, I'm doing my otherstuff, I'm there on mycomputer and I'm managing both.I don't hover over her,which she appreciates.And so we have a great relationship as aresult, but she knowsthat I'm always there.She does a lot of dance.And so I bring her to a lot of practicesaside from competitionsand I'm there in the parkinglot doing stuff.For now, I stack itwith going to the gym.So now when she is at dance, I go to thegym, I finish the gym, I pick her up.So I do a lot of that planning.My son does tennis.I sign him up for tennis at my gym.So he does tennis.I do gym and I'm able tomanage those different things.I've also another thing that I've done.And actually, this was an idea that camefrom also an EO event years ago.I do one on one trips with my kids.I let them choose where we're going andit can just be for three days, four days.It doesn't have to beanything very lengthy.And I go with them and then they have myundivided attentionand it's just one on one.And we're doing what they want to do.Now, mind you, now that my daughter isolder, things can get fancier for her.So the last one on one that we did, I hadto travel to Dubai for a big event.And so imagine she was 14.I took my 14 at the time out of 14 yearold out of school to goto Dubai for just overa week.And so I combined my two worlds.I worked while I worked.She did other things.She had now they finished working.We spent days visitingand doing things together.So combined things, I call it stacking.We just had globalleadership conference in Hawaii.I took the kids out of school.Teachers were unimpressed.A vice president, principal of one of theschools sent me an email.But I did my, you know, worldlyexperiences and they got toenjoy Hawaii and then we gotto hang out together.So I summarize it all with with stacking.It's been a big part of how I approachparenting and kind of juggling it all.I love the understanding of having onelife versus a bunch ofthings trying to balancethem against each other.It's really, you know, and there'sseasons, you know, it's going to beseasons where you'remore execution or gettingstuff done and like people get it.I'd love to chat about like, we haven'thad this conversation,but I don't know, Colby,if you and I have even had thisconversation, but I have a lot ofconflicting thoughts aroundmy personal brand.And this sounds like agreat time to chat about it.My first business was, you know, I had alocal food company,grocery stores, food processingdistribution.I ran it for eight years.I grew from two people to45 people, multiple cities.And one of the main things that I did andenjoyed was I spoke.I enjoyed it, they give me a mic.And so it ended up beingI was the local food guy.The brand of the business and the brandof myself were sointerrelated that you couldn'tseparate them.You know, 35 speaking engagements a year,TEDx talk, CPC everymonth, like, and thenthat business closed and it closed reallyhard, which is aseparate story that I'm happyto go in.But then, like, my personal brand was sotied to that, that it wasa rough couple of years.Get back into business.You know, I've done a couple of things.We merge companies withColby's and we're now Ironhouse Pro.And I've just in the last 12 months, wemade the decisionactually 18 months ago when weinternally talked about our goals asleaders, what we wanted to do.And so I wanted to get back on stage.I wanted to speak.I wanted to have that online and offlinepersonal brand that Icould build back up.But I don't want or I don't want to bethe guy who is thebusiness and vice versa.And so now we're right in the middle ofit right now because we'redoing this, this podcast,like arms length, but similar with ourcompany, Ironhouse Pro.But I'm doing stuff separately and Ijust, how do you disconnect?And also we have clients who actively areworking with us toseparate their brand becausethey're coming up onpotentially a succession.They want to like prepare their businessholistically as something that could beeasier to transitioneither to management team, nextgeneration or to a sale.And so how do you, first of all, shouldyou connect your companyto your personal brand?And if you have already done that,because a lot of people do,how do you keep them separateor separate them more intentionally?Any thoughts on that?That's a fantastic question and it's avery valid question, right?Because we're told that to have asuccessful exitspecifically, you want to make sure thatthere is no impression that the businessdepends on you in any way, right?Including yourvisibility market, et cetera.That's number one.And also number two, if a business doesfail, which I've gonethrough that experience too,well now, how do you come out of thatstory because you're sodeeply associated with it?And thank you for briefly sharing that.A lot of people don't talk about theirfailures and we all havethem and it's important totalk about them.I'll give you a very honest answer and Ihope you don't mind, but Iam from the former SovietUnion, so very direct and honest.The reason that happened, Levi, is thatyou weren't building a personal brand.You did not build a personal brand.You built yourself up to be aspokesperson of your business.There's a huge difference in that andthat's where we go wrong.So if you build a personal brand, thepersonal brand will alwaysbe bigger than the businessbecause you are bigger than the business.You have so much more that you can talkabout, that you'reinterested in, that you're involvedin, than just the business.If you only talk about the business, thenof course people aregoing to correlate thetwo.You're the spokesperson for it.So yes, of course it affects exitability.It affects scalability as well becausethen everything hinges on you.And then of course if, you know,hopefully another failureis not going to happen, butif it does, of coursethere's a connection.When you build your personal brand right,which is, it's bigger,it's more inspirational,it's inspiring, it's not only about thebusiness, it's almost theopposite in fact in that,for example, from the client standpoint,clients really don'teven expect to work with youbecause you have so muchmore of a brand, right?I'll give you myself as an example.I'm very active on LinkedIn in particularas far as social media.I do a lot of speaking, very active withan EO, podcasting, allthe different things.But because I don't just narrowly focuson only talking aboutpersonal branding and onlytalking about brand of a leader, whenprospective clients cometo us, they almost say like,"Oh, I know you've got so much going on.I know I'm going to beworking with your team."They just make that assumption.So when you're able to zoom out, that'shard to do because thatmeans that before you startcreating any kind of content, you have toanswer a verydifficult question of, well,what is your brand?Not with adjectives and stuff.That can be your uniquebrand angle, brand concept.When we work with clients, that's what wehelp them figure out,their concept, theirsomething and unique angle for theirthought leadership that'sportable, that would applyto you, Levi, whether you were in thefood business or in thenew business or any otherbusiness because it's you.There's a common denominator.There's a reason why you're involved inthese different things.So to do it right, you have to figure outwhat that concept is.You also have to figure out what aregoing to be your topicsthat you want to be associatedwith that zoom out from the business andthat can also show thatyour brand is bigger thanjust this particular business.That's the key.Most people don't do that.Most people don't do brand strategy fortheir personal brandbefore they go into execution,number one.And then number two, they just becomespokespeople for the business itself andthat's a big mistake.That tracks.No pressure.That's good.It's validating.Yeah, it's one of those things like Idon't think it was validating.That's exactly kind of it's coming up,but it is hard and it'staking the time when you'refocused on likebecause it's two exercises.It's because you also have to do thoseexercises for yourbusiness to be able to understandthe differentiation.And so segmenting that edge is so I'mpretty familiar withbranding as a methodology andlots of different ways people do it,especially from a company point of view.What are thedeliverables that is it similar?I would expect like would you have like astyle guide and kindof a tone and language?Would you go down to like colors andfonts and that level oris it more like what arethey if I was looking for work onpersonal brand, what arethe things that I would usethe rules like what's it look like?So first of all, the process itself toarrive at the outcomeswhich I will share with you.The process is aprocess of deep introspection.You know what most clients tell us is Icame to you thinking thiswas going to be a marketingexercise like when we did it for mybusiness and instead I feellike I'm with my psychoanalystand we're talking about my childhood.The biggest problem was the more you knowhighlights of my lifeand that is the process.So we take you through aprocess of deep introspection.We ask a lot of very personal questionsbecause the idea is for usto find well what are thepatterns?What are the commondenominators around that?We build your angular point of view.So number one, that processbecomes slightly different.You're absolutely right by the way Levithat and that's anotherthing I didn't mentionbefore when answering your question abouthow do you make that distinction.It's important that as we build ourpersonal brand as a leader,as a founder brand, as ourthought leadership brand that we are alsobuilding the brand ofthe business becausealso if the brand does not have abusiness, well then ofcourse ours will become it andthen again there's that problem.So it's very important to do so thoseexercises you're doing for the business.Very important.Often again as founders we make a mistakethat when we go throughthose exercises ourselveswe just copy what we did for the businessand it's not always the same because our,what, who we are in our brands, wellagain they're bigger than the business.Quick example, we do the core valuesexercise with our clients.All of our clients are founders ofbusinesses as I said wework with a couple of C-levelexecutives mostlycompany CEOs and founders.And when we do the corevalues exercise, well 99.9% cheat.They'll just take the core values of thebusiness and go, "Ialready did this exercise,here you go."The answer is yes and is there a corevalue, of course all thecore values in the businessare your core values,if not that's an issue.But is there also a corevalue that's not in the business?It's yours but you don't expect yourbusiness partner to shareit, you don't expect youremployees to share it but there'ssomething that's reallydeeply authentic to you.So with the personal brand first of allsimilar exercises but it's adeep process of introspection.So that's number one.Then number two is you askme what are the deliverables?Not every client wants to have a logo andfonts and the usual,what we typically getwhen we build our corporate brand.A lot of our clients will use colors andfonts etc. of theirbusiness for continuity purposesand that works well.Neither one is better orless or very necessary.Unless you're going tobuild a personal website.Let's say you're goingto say, "You know what?In addition to my business I also want toserve on boards, Iwant to write a book, Iwant to be speaking outside of thebusiness as well, I wantto have a personal website."Well then it would be niceto have logo and colors etc.It's not a must.What is a must and what the deliverableis when we deliver thebrand identity to a clientis number one, the unique angle.The whole point of building a personalbrand as a business owner isto build thought leadership.That is the USCO currency, we know thatthis is what helps our businesses grow.So the number one thing to figure out is,well what's going tobe your angle or yourpoint of view?To build in thoughtleadership, it's hard to build it.Unless you're an academic and you justcompleted your thesis on avery specific research topic.So what is it going to be?What's going to be that angle, that themethat's going to beyours that you're goingto be associated with?We'll help figure that out.And then of course, what isgoing to be your brand voice?How do you want to be perceived or notperceived with intention?A lot of people just let itroll out but with intention.Who are your audiences?What are going to be your platforms?What is going to beyour brand vocabulary?So all of those things as well.So more so if with corporate branding werely a lot on the visual.In personal branding thevisual is typically our face.And then the rest of it is all words andwords made in a way thatwould be compelling andwould allow you to stand out.It's funny, I just got done a sessionearlier today in helpinga company understand AI,generative AI.And part of like actually Colby, I don'tknow if we've talked about it but in someof our conversations where we talk aboutbranding and consistencyand building those internalprocesses and marketing, internal,external is around your voice.How do you, because now you really needto be able to describeyour voice in much moretechnical terms becausethere's tools that could use it.Anyway I love that stuff.I think that's, like I've done it myself,I've read it out tothem earlier and they'relike that's exactly who you are.It's like I couldn't have wrote it.Like I fed AI dozens of examples of whatI like about what I write to get it out.But I'd love to go through it.Like the idea that you can do thatthrough a process andintrospection of, yeah, it'sfascinating.Yeah it's really interesting andnaturally we'll leverageAI tools now very actively.You know when Johnny I first hit themarket, well really lastyear, we went through allthe stages that most went through whichdidn't get stuck in thembut we were in denial too.Because what happened was that all of asudden we do a lot ofcontent creation for clients,right?We write a lot of LinkedIn posts, wewrite a lot of articles.And so all of a sudden it's like we wokeup and we got acompetitor who wasn't amazingbut was free or 20 bucks a month and wasonly getting better.And so all of a sudden everyone was veryexcited about this competitor.It's cool to be using this competitor.So we got, at first we went into denialand we said, well it'snot as good as what wecreate and went in the direction, kind ofthe opposite of the current.And then we realized that no, it's goingto be a losing game.That is what losers do, right?We're going to denial andthen we're the next Kodak.Why don't we embrace it?Why don't we use it to our advantage?And what can we do?What is that human component that we canadd that it can't do?So for example, when we're trying tofigure out a client'sbrand voice, like you said,you've worked on and those things, AI isexceptionally helpful with that.AI cannot create a unique concept.AI deals in non-unique, right?That's what it does.That's the whole point.And hopefully it can't getyou into your personal values.Hopefully not, right?Or again, there would be generic, right?If I ask it, youknow, what are my values?I've done this actually.What are my values?It says a lot of like really cutesy thingthat would apply tome, to you and to you,like we could all be like, yes.So it's just not unique.So anything that we're able to do as faras creating brandidentity for clients that createsthat point of uniqueness, same withwriting a brand story.We've tried everything with AI to createcompelling brand stories andit's just cheesy and generic.When we write a client's brand story, Ikid you not, it's everysingle one, every singleclient gets choked up.And people I would never think, you know,one of my favorite examples, I don't knowif you know him, Kobe Bryant, bro.He's been a member forlike, I don't know, 30 years.He was our global chairbefore a bunch of years ago.He does our GLA, RLA,he does the MP program.He's like, you know, EO royalty and justlike the serious, you know, stoic guy.He's one of my favorite people period andthe EO people for sure.And so when he came to work with us, Iwas just so excited andjust so nervous, you know,this better go well.And I remember reading his brand story tohim and he pausedafter I finished readingand there's a pause and we're sitting inthis pause and I wonderwhat's going on and hechoked up.And like, this is like this crazy, likeone of the peoplethat I respect the most.And he was like, wow,that made me emotional.Like that actually made me emotional.AI can't deliver on that.At least not yet,maybe one day, but not yet.So that's where I'll see.You don't get the tinglies from an AIpost, typically, no.And to be honest, we're working with alot of companies wholike, like we're years andyears away from a general adoption ofsome of these tools.So there's a long time where there'sgoing to be a huge sector ofpeople who super successfulpeople that were just going to still needmore nuanced supportand help because theygot other things they're good at.Yeah.I'm still stuck.I'm still stuck on this spokespersonversus, you know, personal brand.And I don't even think I told you thatI'm not sure if I didtell you Marina, but I alsohad like a failed, a pretty significantfailed business experience,but I was the spokesperson.So you were right across the country onTV and ads and all that kind of stuff.So I just like didn't want to leave.And I think now I'm not even sure if Iever made thisconnection, but I think that's whyI never liked LinkedIn past that pointwhere I was like, I just don't.I just there was somethingabout it that felt off to me.And now that you said that, I'm like,that's exactly what that problem was.You know what?I'll share a very vulnerable story withyou that I have notshared with anyone outsideof my business partner.So definitely not in any interviews.You heard it here first.Right.I think it's going to be resonant to youwith what you'resaying, because certainly whenwe build visibility, whether we'rebuilding it properly as a personal brandor as a spokesperson,but when we build visibility, of course,if we fail, we fail in public.Right.There is no there's no skipping.It doesn't matter if you're doing itright or wrong, but if youfail, then you're failingin public.What I did do right was when I did havemy failure, I had beenbuilding my personal brandwithout by the way,calling it my personal brand.I only started calling it personal brandand when I launched abrand of a leader, but Iwasn't calling it that it was also alwaysfelt the term is verynarcissistic and self-indulgentand uncomfortable.I'm building my personal brand.Like it just sounds not not veryinspiring, but I was puttingmyself out there was buildinga lot of visibility.I was just building it not only aroundthat particular specificbusiness, although I was,but I had zoomed out.So I had a lot of people paying attentionto me, not only because of that business,but the vulnerable part of the story.So the business failed.It was during COVID.It was one of the most painful andterrible experiences of my life.I can now talk about it with a smilebecause I now have asuccessful business at the time.I wanted to call under a rock and makesure nobody knows about it.And so we decided to bankrupt thebusiness after it wouldreally essentially we wentfrom just, you know, revenue,everything's fantastic.Great COVID hit.We had no cash reserves.We weren't prepared for it.We had a failed partnership with mybusiness partner andwhat were we going to do?It just, there was no saving it.There were other details on the story,but long story short.And so we decided that wewere going to bankrupt it.And so I call a, I call the company, Icall it Ramon Shabbatbecause that's just, they'reknown for those things.And there's an accountmanager that gets assigned.And so I say helloand I introduce myself.And I'm driving because when I have thesereally terrible,uncomfortable conversationsin life, I try as much as possible to dothem while I'm driving.So I'm distracted and I'm just focused onthe pain of whatever I'm talking about.And so I said, yes, under an eye andintroduce myself and said, you know, yes.So I just wanted to inquire about theprocess of filingbankruptcy for the business.He goes, Oh my God, wait a second.Did you say Marina?Oh yeah.Yeah.I knew you have beenfollowing you for years.The phrase that you make my parents say,I literally, I'm holding the wheel.And I look up at this guy, likeliterally, like I'm lookingat God and I'm like, really,really.But, but what he said right after was, Ohmy God, didn't you justlaunch a new business?It looks really cool.I love what you're doing.And so because, you know, in his eyes andhis to me, all I wasat that moment was myone big failure to me, to him, thatwasn't the case becausehe was paying attention tome for better or for worse, fordifferent, differentreasons and different things.But that was moment.I can't even get overthe alignment there.Like two things.One, I remember calling the bankruptcytrustee and there's noway on earth I should havebeen behind the wheel of a car for sure.Separately.But second, my bankruptcy trustee,account manager guy, hiswhole family bought groceriesevery weekend or place.Come to find it.God.And he's like, and there was no symbolthat there was any problems.I can relate to that so much.But no, I definitelyshouldn't be driving.Yeah.Yeah.Isn't it wild?I like how you said that you can talkabout it with a smile on your face now.And I've had that similar experiencewhere like I had tomove back into my parents'basement when this happened.And my whole family worked there too.So we were all out of a jobright at the exact same time.And five days before Christmas, mybrother just had a new baby.And I remember not wanting to leave thehouse because literallyeverybody in this town knowsme.And everywhere I went, they're like, "Areyou still doing that thing?What's going on?That's exciting."And I'd be at the grocery store or thegym and I just couldn't go.I just couldn't go.And anyway, yeah.Yeah, could just do it.Because I enjoy and I think our businessis doing well, but Idon't know if I'm stilla smile on the face.I still don't go to the farmer's market.It's been nine years.I just, yeah, it's just not.You know what, I'll share another story.Maybe this perspective will help becausealso that's what keptme going before I startedBrand of a Leader and started doing well.And I needed to tell myself a story thatwouldn't feel reallyshattering to my ego and feellike I'm starting fromscratch and all those things.I remember years ago, so I was stillrunning the business.I was doing well.I was already in EO.And I was invited to speak at an eventcalled the Fuck Up Night.I'm not Cassin and Swern,it's the name of the event.And it's quite popular, I think across,at least across Canada,maybe across North America.And the premise of the event is that youcome and you tell a storyof failure and you shareit kind of like open mic night, butthere's a number ofpeople that can just stand upand people that are booked to come andshare their stories.So you come and share your story offailure and everyoneshares a story of failure.So it's that bonding experience.And so I got invited tospeak there and I got so excited.I first said yes because Iwould say yes to any speaking.And then I sat down and I thought, I havenothing to talk about.I don't have a story of failure.And so I pulled out of that gig, but Iwent to listen and Iliterally had this feeling,well, I'm not a real entrepreneur becauseI don't have a storyof a spectacular fail.I have nothing to tell.I'm not a real entrepreneur.I think I must have jinxed myself becauseI thought that a wholebunch of times becauseI would sit down with other entrepreneursand everyone had a story,like of the spectacular,right?I'm on the phone and it's the bankruptcyperson and they freaking follow you.Everyone had a story.I didn't have a story.And so when I failed or rather I didn'tfail, the business failed.That's what I kept thinking about.I'm like, well, now I'm a realentrepreneur because now I'm going tostart another business.I'm going to have a story to tell.And that perspective helped me a lot.And to be honest, it's the whole failureled me to very specificthings that people sawme as more ready for, able to help withbecause of that failure.But I think the words you just said thatI wanted to see yousaid the business failed,not me fail.I think that's where I get because nowhindsight's not veryforgiving because now I have gonethrough many journeys.I've moderated and led peer groups.I've helped clients through all kinds ofcrazy stuff and our ownbusinesses of growing andmerging and where we're at now.And I now am pretty confident that if Iknew then what I know nowor had the relationshipsthen that I have now,it wouldn't have failed.It wasn't the business of fail.It was the past me.Just like the irritation of just likereset in the video game.I just want to try that again.Go back and say it.You are.You are in a different context.But you know what, though, Levi, I don'teven have that story totell myself because I shouldhave known betterbecause every mistake...The pandemic you should have known.We were told, like we were...I was an accelerator then in EO.I had every mentor you can imagine andthey would say, "Okay,you guys, they're businesspartners?"Yes."What's your partnership?"50-50.They say, "That's a mistake.Do 49-51.Ridiculous.""Do you guys have ashareholders agreement?""No.""What do you mean?""No, that's ridiculous.""That's not for us.Thank you very much.We're good.""Do you guys have cash reserves?""How many months of cash reserves?""What cash reserves?""Our business has so much cash flow.We're amazing.Our revenue is crazy.Our profitability is insane.We don't need that.""We're going to belike, if only I'd known.See, you didn't know.So at least you have a good reason.I knew.I just didn't listen."And so of course, I hadto learn the hard way.I had to go through it myself to now inthe new business to do things right.And now I listen to people.Now when somebody says something andpaying attention, I know it all.There's no way with a small K and there'sno way with a big K.There's no way that there's no...Well, there's no way that there's no...I've often... I mean, I touched on this a little bit ina separate podcast, but I didn't...This whole peer group thing, I didn't getexposed till I was 30.I don't know.This was only two and ahalf years ago, I guess.You're starting out.But, so I was trying to reach for thingsthat would help me growwhen I was 18, 19, 20.And I found Tony Robbins and I think EricThomas was another one.And it was all motivation stuff andmindset stuff, but therewas really nothing aroundthe execution and goodstrategy and intentionality.It was all just like, "Hey, if I have themotivation, I can do this thing."And looking back, that is why thathappened to me in that other business.I can directly link it back to...There was just a knowledge gap of thethings that really matter,which is the ability to execute.There's so many things thatwe'll learn in EO through.And just there are a lot of things in EOthat are available to usalso, and I'm sure alsoin the group that you're in too, Levi,that people just don't tap into.Because beyond forum and beyond thesegreat one-on-oneconversations we have, there'salso a plethora of learning programs thatare transformationaland they're mind-blowing.We don't have to figurethings out there there.Also to me, the path of leadership in EOhas been my greatest learning.Really, I learned how to lead meetings, Ilearned how to havesuccessful meetings, Ilearned how to have difficultconversations all throughmy leadership roles in EO.Because if you're able to have difficultconversations and if you'reable to lead other leaders,then you can lead people who are supposedto listen to you, at least somewhat.So that's another, there's just so muchthat you're still new inEO, but as you're exploringit further, it's mind-blowing how manyresources and opportunitiesthere are to just up-levelas a leader in so many different ways.And from not just the motivationalcomponent that's there too,but also the execution andall the learnings and everything.I, two weeks ago, got to interview DeepakChopra in person, thanks to EO.Yeah, I was going to ask you about that.Was that insane?I can't describe to you.It made no sense.Things that I've done in EO, if I gaveyou a list of thingsthat I've done, I spoke atan event in Saudi Arabia.Like Saudi Arabia, who's ever going toinvite me to, like,doesn't make any sense.I facilitated a thing in Macau, when theyinvited me to go toMacau, I went and secretlyGoogled it because I had no idea whereMacau was, like, at all.Like, what part of Macau?Like, I didn't even knowwhere on the map I'm looking.I grew up behind the Iron Curtain.And so I was at JLCR Global LeadershipConference in Hawaii andthey sent me an email and theysaid, hey, we were supposed to do virtualinterview, interviews, what did they say,virtual studio interviewswith our main stage speakers.And the person who wasinterviewing them fell through.Would you like to bethe one to interview them?And I was like, what?Like, who?And they go, whoever you want.Here's the full list.And there's Deepak Chopra.And there's Ryan Holiday.With Ryan Holiday, I was more starstruckbecause I've read all of his books.I'm a big fan of stoicism.I always have at least oneof his books by my bed stand.I chose Bethany Hamilton, who was thesurfer that when shewas 13, her arm got bit bya shark and she's continued surfing andhad a film and everything.And it was so I chose the three of themand I said, well, yes, Iwould like to interviewthem tomorrow.Can I choose my questions?Can I send them to you?And I said, yes.And then I said, when yousay virtual, are they virtual?And they go, no, no, no, they're inperson with you in theroom and then that's goingto be available on our virtual platform.And I was like, and yeah, with veryminimal preparation, I gotto interview all three ofthem. Deepak Chopra,that's the biggest flex.Ryan Holiday, that was personally just Ijust really follow him.And then Bethany Hamilton, I got to bringmy nine year old who'swatched her film and wasreading about her in the book.And at one point they put him on my lapand he asked thequestion with all the, you know,the cameras and the lights.I wasn't breathing in that moment becausethat was anothermoment of stacking when myworlds came together and I was justsitting there just staring.And that was really special.So, yeah, that was that was quite so.Wow. I did not knowthat part of the story.That's wild.Wow.What was now with is aDeepak, Deepak Deepak Deepak?Deepak. How do I say it?Dr. Chopra.What was what was was there any like ahamoment when you weretalking with him either on oroff camera? Anything change for you?Yeah. So first of all, one of the thingsis he's definitely youknow, he's he's colder than Iwould have thought.And he definitely, you know, and maybebecause, you know, a lotof attention and I know thatthat can also be, youknow, really tiring for people.But when he came into the room for me tointerview him, his energywas kind of more of let'sget this over with kind of vibe.He didn't verbatim set in, but I felt it.I had been throughout GLC on some kind ofa sensorial overload.I think just everything happened andseeing people I know fromaround the world and justeverything is just the energyof GLC is absolutely unreal.Like fifteen hundred of us from acrossthe globe is unreal.And so I believe this was day two of GLC.And I think I was sooverwhelmed by everything.It was very emotional since that morning.One of the speakers showed a video of alaughing baby, likelaughing, not crying as there'scrying. And so it wasvery, very emotional.And so when Deepak Chopra came up to asthey were making him, I told him this.I said, Dr. Chopra, I'll be really, youknow, really open withyou and share with you thatI'm usually, you know, not not an overly,you know, open and emotional person.But today I'm feeling incrediblyemotional and I'm hopingthat this conversation camejust at the perfect timefor that reason as well.And I could feel that hewarmed up when I said it.So it was a moment of a little bit more of an authentic connection.And then after I interviewed him, Iactually did have an ahamoment that kind of stoppedme right on my tracks.I've been speaking allaround the globe, right?And I'd been pursuing a speaking careervery, very actively.And my life coach would often ask me, myvision coach, she wouldsay, what's your dream?Do you want to give a TED Talk?Do you want to speakin front of 5000 people?Like, what's your dream?And I could never connect with a dream.I'm like, what's wrong with me?Is it just an insecurityor what's where's my dream?Where's my dream?And as I finished the interview withChopra, I had this hugeaha moment that my dream isto interview the world's biggest thoughtleaders and not be thethought leader speaking.I want to be interviewing them.And I had this huge it was just thebiggest realization aha moment.I had no idea, but that was I will chalkit up to the extraspiritual connection that washappening that day becauseof because of his presence.And that was my big aha moment.So I want to beessentially the next Oprah.But the Oprah that interviews, not theOprah that's speaking on stage.Wow.That's so cool.Congratulations.That's such that's good clarity.I now already have in my portfolio, Ihave Ryan Holiday Deepak Chopra.I can already show stuff, you know.Yeah, you kind of leapfrogthere a little bit, didn't you?Right.Thanks to go right again, because whenwould that have ever happened?Right.And as they they complimented me and theysaid my interviewswere really stand out andreally fantastic.And I said, well, you know, next year,JLC, I can also be on the big stage.You let me know.That is so great.Wow.Definitely, you know.Wow.Ryan Holiday is one of my favorites.Oh, that was so cool.That to me was a huge highlight.I also learned that he'shis supporter of Ukraine.His publishing houseused to be in Belarus.And when the war started and heunderstood where theallegiances lied, he decided to putan end to that relationship.And he found himself anotherbelieve it was a publisher.I believe that's that's thevendor he was talking about.He found one in England.He said I knew it was going to cost me.Didn't know it was going to cost me thatmuch because there'slike a very different priceprice bracket.But he did what was right.And so to him, that was important.And I told him when I interviewed himthat that was reallymeaningful to me because I'mUkrainian and then showed him my tattoo,which you can see Ukraine in colors.He showed me his tattoothat says ego is the enemy.So it felt like a cool,very cool bonding moment.It's funny.It's always the little things you do.Like I obviously I haven't been able tomake any impact at all,but we used a freelancerto help build the slide deck for apresentation I gave at a conference andthey happen to be inUkraine.Love it.Work and did it.And it was just like, yeah, but surrealalso like you're havingconversations and like verydifferent mindsets.But yeah, that you can make those directimpacts and have thoserelationships as well.That was right when it started.It was very early on.Yeah.Yeah.Right.I could not recommend hiring in Ukraineenough as you look tocontinue growing the business.And we used to hire in the Philippinesand we moved away fromthe Philippines to Ukraine.Um, find people with great English.Um, it's great from the, you know, costeffectiveness perspective as with scale.Um, for them it's extremely meaningfulbecause of course the economy is hard.And I can tell you it's very differentthan managing employeesin North America wherepsychological safety is compromised atevery, you know, cornerand every, every moment.Whereas when my team member who is inKiev, there was a bigbombing of the children'shospital in Kiev.It was terrible.And he was obviouslyhiding out in a, in a shelter.And then when he came out of the shelter,I messaged him and Isaid, Hey, uh, do youwant to take the day off?And he goes, why, what do you mean?And I'm like, you know, kind of maybejust like a mental health type of day.And he's like, no, no,but it's finished now.I'm good.I have internet connection.And to me, when I contrast it and I don'twant to upset my North American teammembers, they're wonderful.But when I contrast it with justeverything, you know,there's a lot more propensity forfeelings to be heard very easily andthings to be, you know,just have a lot more impactwhere they shouldn't.Hiring in Ukraine is bothmeaningful, easy to manage.And I just highly, highly recommend that.Have a favor you're looking.I have a greatheadhunter that I work with.That's just charges a flat fee and, and,and finds people there.So how would we, how would wego about looking into that?Because they're with our new kind ofstrategic plan that we cameout with, you know, we've gotkind of the next three, three, four roleskind of like starting tobe pretty fleshed out in ourheads.I'd be curious to definitely enable to beworked from anywhere.Yeah, we've struggled with a that levelof time difference for ourkey roles that have like accountmanagement responsibilities, becausethey're not asynchronous work.So that's, it's not impossible, but it'sa big commitment when it's that you canalso find people whowill work your hours.You need to find that fish.Yeah.Yeah, it would definitely be not it'seasier than, you know, some othercountries like the Philippines,right?The difference is so hard that, you know,you can only overlap half.But so I have afantastic headhunter, headhunter.She charges 700 euro per search.It's a flat fee.And she interviews people just same asany headhunter interviews people.You give your criteria presents to youand then once you hire youpay that person directly.So she's not an agent agency.She's one person shewas referred to me by.I'm actually in an EU Ukraine forum alsoI'm helping help help mebuild the chapter in Ukraine.I have a forum every month we meet forfour hours virtually.And so one of my forum buddies referredme this headhunter and thefirst person she found me was myassistant and is the bestassistant that ever had.So she at the time was in Poland and thenhas traveled around.She's already come to Canada.She's coming again in June for the oneCanada conference supportme with the women's summit.Then she's found us our accountcoordinator and now we're interviewingfor a PR role in a marketing roleand just supporting as well.I referred her to a bunch of members towho've hired her to work with her.So if ever you're looking for thatsupport, I'd be veryhappy to to make a connection.I get nothing from it.It just makes my heart sing.You get karma from it.Yeah.Yeah.You look like you're not.I got something too, but you go first.I'm pulling back to the many notes Iasked in her first 30 seconds.So you feel free if you'recontinuing down the chain.I've got I've got somedouble clicks I want to make.I think that would be more appropriate.Don't want to put that.So I'll wait.Now I'm curious aboutthe inappropriate one.What's the inappropriate one?You can't.It's just it's such a shift from what wewere talking about that.I just you go firstly, butI'm on pins and maybe I will.Yeah, I know it's too late now.I'm not going to.I think we're kind oftalking about everything.I want to know like how you're doing andwith, you know,everything that's going onin Ukraine and and I actually haven'treally talked to youabout that on retreatsbecause I didn't reallyknow how to talk about it.And it was it was I had to I called myadviser, Joel Hunter,when that first happened,because I was like, I spiraled when thatfirst happened and it was the only thingthat completely consumed my life and andthen as things kind of I don't know,I think it was really the news that kindof tapered off tapered offcovering as much as it was.And then and I just haven't really had achance to really talk to you about it.So I'd love to know from yourperspective, what's going on and and whatyour thoughts are around everything.Yeah, I first of all, I mean, same whenthe war started, of course, I spiraled.And also it's not something I would haveever believed would happen.And as much as, of course, it's 2014, wealready had the war in Donbass, which wasin an area where Iwould go a lot as a child.My aunt lived there. Myaunt's in that whole region.Two of my aunt's lived there. I spentevery summer in that area.But that still seemed, you know, never inmy life would I think that I would seetanks in Kiev or on thestreets on which I grew up.You know, it just neverthought that that would happen.I actually was coming from an event andhit a ditch and blew two of my tires andwas sitting in a ditch for many hourswaiting for to getrescued by a tow truck.And my mother called me and I was like,I'm not going to answer my mother becauseI'm going to tell her about the ditch.And it's just goingto be this whole thing.And she left me a voicemail message andthen I'm sitting therein the middle of nowhere.My car is now freezing. They're notcoming. Two tires are blown.I'm literally in the middleof nowhere. It's getting late.My mother called me and listened to thevoicemail message andI must still have it.And I still remember it very vividly.She said the war has started.They're attacking Ukraine.And I get emotionaljust thinking about that.And I although in the moment I thought mymother has officially lost her mind andhas nothing better to do than just tocall me with with with silly things.And then the next day, of course,everything on the newsand seeing it everywhere.And then over the next couple of days, Igrew up in a city called Harkiv, which isright by the border.And so that was one of the first cities.And I also did not know that there arelife camps on streets all over the world.And you can go on YouTube and you canjust watch life camps.And so for the next few weeks, I wouldjust sit in front of the TV and I wouldwatch tanks go on streets of my hometown,which was really disturbing.And I mean, completely disturbing.I have family there.I have friends there.One of my childhood friends.I mean, he's like an HR guy.You know what I mean?And now he's in themilitary uniform and his servant.Like, it just makes absolutely no sense.You know, these are not military people.These are these are,you know, people like us.And so that was really hard.And that was, you know, year one was whenI started speakingabout the war very actively.And that was the first time when I was sograteful that I had built some kind of aplatform for myselfbecause I would speak about it.I would post about it on LinkedIn.I got so much hate for it, too.Lots of bots and trolls and things.But I started getting so many messagesfrom people in that year one saying thatthey were donating and they were sayingthat they were donating thanks to mebecause me talking about it and becausethey knew me that hitcloser to home and my pain.They could feel it.And I didn't know these people.And I was like, it's the first time Ireally understood that, you know, theysay it's not what you know, it's who youknow, but really it's who knows you.That's the first time I understood thatvalue of who knows you.Year two started receiving messages frompeople saying that they were opening thedoors of their homes to Ukrainians towelcome and would ask me, you know, howdo I make borscht and what else should Iput in the in the fridge?And they would say, I'm doing it for you,which was also a lot of responsibilitybecause I don't know these people andUkrainians are amazing,but some might not be.And that's a lot of, you know, it's a lotof pressure to have.Year three, I joined Ukraine.We began to try to create a chapter inthe middle of the war.What happened with the Ukraine was wewere supposed to I was on the task teamthat was working on launching the firstkind of recruitment event for Ukraine.It was supposed to takeplace in the summer of 2020.And they told me that I would go and Iwould be a keynote speaker.And that's all I could think about.So this was 2019.And this was all I could think aboutbecause like what a homecoming.I'm going to come back and it's going tobe your people and all my friends weresaying, we're all going to come to Kiev.We're going to watch you speak.And I'm going to speak.I could not think of anything else.And of course, 2020, weall know what happened.There was no more travel anywhere.And then the war started.And then fast forward to last year when Iheard that we are building EU Ukraine.We found somebody who'sgoing to champion it in Kiev.I said, I want to get involved.And so year three of the war, I'm part ofthe first ever EU Ukraine forum, which isexceptionally rewarding.And and now I'm talkingabout people hiring in Ukraine.So that's now the impact that I hope tohave is to inspire more people to to hireUkrainians and help the economy that way.It's very hard to manage and to deal.I try to stay off the news as much as Ican because it's hard.You know, my heart breaksevery time there's an attack.And then I, you know, message my myforeign buddies and the cow.Do you ask and what do you ask?Right. What do you ask again?Like, what do you ask?They've become so numb to it.That's very hard.There is a Ukrainian account which onlyposts good news on like heartwarmingstories that are like partof war or not, but in Ukraine.So follow that.And that gives me, you know, a smilebecause it's incredible how people arepersevering and rebuilding and thrivingand the resilience of them.But of course, what is the.It's called short time.S H O T A M.I don't remember ifthere is underscore after oh.So you know what?I'm going to send it to you.It's really it's it's silver lining.It's very, very satisfying.OK. Yeah.Wow. Yeah, it's it's really it is really.It is unbelievable like it's like thatthat is that it even happened and iscontinuing to happen.And just some of the world'sresponse is it's very strange.Everything's very it's it's strange.Yeah. Yeah.In these conversations that I only have achance to do a few, usually through thoseother peer groups that I help facilitateis similar to the way youdescribe earlier, Marina.The, you know, go into the failure eventwithout having your story yet.And I don't know what you call it, but Icome from parents who are still together.I grew up at a safe household.I had no conflict in my life.I've never had direct people who havegone through tragedy in any big way.I just like, yeah, I know or do I wishany kind of trauma,but it's that similar.Like it's hard to it's easy to empathizeand it's hard to understandthe realities of those major things.Like it's just it'simpossible to understand.And it just gives such perspective.You know, when I have my monthly callwith my with my with my forum, three ofthem gather in person in Kiev and one oftheir their places and then four of us,four of us are spreadout in other countries.And, you know, the five percent thingtakes on a whole new meaning because whenpeople are living through what they'reliving through, they are so raw.The things they share just go like, oh,that's like a point five percent.And then you can't really be as you haveto really, you know, dig deep.You're not just going to.I've sat on a lot of forums in in Canada,where it's just, you know, like, oh, mybiggest what's keeping me up at nightright now is I haveaccess to too much capital.And I don't know whether I should, youknow, start a newbusiness or I should whatever.And I'm like, oh, my God.Like, you ask, so Idon't have such a problem.It's not really. I have noexperience share for you.But then when you sit on forum withpeople who are just really raw, butthey're builders, right?They're still, you know,they're they're they're me.They're there to grow their businessesand scale their businesses and exit theirbusinesses and have big ambitions.But in the backdrop of, oh, yes, we justhad a drone that fell 200 meters away.Oh, all the windows of my office explodedbecause there was an explosion.Oh, I'm really nervous.My employees are going to get drafted.I need to have a contingency plan.Oh, I'm nervous.I'm going to get drafted. I need acontingency plan for me.And so those conversations will then Ihave to dig deep to see what is my realfive percent and not serve them somethingthat's that I could getaway with in my forms.Wow. Yeah.Yeah, it's it's privilege to air to behearing somebody share such real stories.You know, I haven't in that particularone, but like everybody has.You can't really compare pain and trauma,but like hearing real experience shares.Yeah. Changes the levelof connection completely.Very much so. I can't meet with I can'twait to meet with them in person.We keep trying to planour in-person retreat.I am the retreat planner,so I have a lot of ideas.I just want to see them in person and hugthem for a very long time.But because there are guys of of agewhere they could bedrafted, they can't easily leave.The rules keep changing all the time justas soon as they, you know, becauseclearly, I mean, these are guys who havethe means if they wanted to leave, theywould have left a long time ago.Nonetheless, rules are rules.And so they keep changing on whether ornot they can leave thecountry to come back.And so we keep playing around.But the plan is this year we will meetsomewhere in Europe in person.And I think that will bevery that will be special.Wow. Well, I'm glad we went there, Colby.Now I don't even wantto bring up to like.Well, that's what I thought.Super shallow.Yeah, I was going after more hacks.And now I'm just. Yeah, I know.That's why I said that.But anyway, I probablyshouldn't have said that.I know. It's good.Back to hacks.Yeah, exactly. Stacking.Yeah. Thanks a lot for the share.I think that's that's what I like aboutthese conversations is this is a safespace to have realmeaningful conversations.And we don't have to skirtthe issues and chat about them.Nor do we have to come to a resolution orsolution because it's notthese things don't get solved.They just need more sharing and talking.They need more than that.But that's what we can do.Yeah. I got another kind of big one.It's not it's not it's not.It's just I'm genuinely.Is it religion,politics, sexual orientation?It's both.All of them mind.I'm curious.It is. It's not related at all, but the.The.When it comes to decision making in yourlife, how how have youcome up with any sort of formula or andhow do you know you're still on trackwith the things that you're doing,because you're doing a lot often.And it's like you'realways gaining clarity and.But like, how do you kind of make theselike large decisions?And if you have anyexamples of of that, I'm just I'moften finding myself at a crossroadsbecause there's been so much change overthe last 10 years in my life.And and, you know, they're all like it'sall pretty like high quality problems.It's like you always say that.But like when it comes to decisionmaking, I'm curious because, you know,you've been in the for what you said, 11years with theaccelerator program or yeah.Like have you found something that'sworked for you and likeeven with your spouse as well,like your family, like making decisionsall around for yourbusiness and your personal life?I mean, we are talking about blending thetwo, which I like more because I alwaysfought with work lifebalance and now I don't like it.I'd like to. Butanyway, that's my question.How do you all that? All of that.It's a good question. I don't like worklife balance eitherbecause work is my life.Like it's just not the only thing in mylife, but it is my life.Like I'm I really I love workand I'm on many other things.But but I really don'tlike that distinction either.How I make decisions.Listen, I think how we make decisions isvery individual because it isit needs to be rooted inwhat's important to us.To me, what's reallyimportant is to have fun.I want to live a lifeof fun and pleasure.That's really the mostimportant thing to me.And that's what I always teach my kidswhen my daughter has a dance competition,when my son has a test, no matter what, Ialways say, what'sthe most important thingas they get out of the car and they lookat me and they go to have fun.And I say, yes, it's the most importantthing because and mindyou, I'm extremely competitiveand I want my kids to, you know, I don'twant them to just like flow through lifeand I want them to be successful.But I believe that when we play to ourenergy and we do things that give usenergy, not drain energy,when we're having fun and we're enjoying,we're having pleasure, Ido believe it all works out.Of course, under the umbrella ofconstant, you know,growth and working on ourselvesand all those things, butthat is my guiding compass.Is this going to be fun?And then people who are close to me, theyalready know to ask this as a question.So, for example, if I get another role inEO offered to me and I'll betelling my business partner,he'll say and I'm like, should I do it?Should I not do it?He's like, is it going to be fun for you?Because now that's if it's going to befun, for sure, I'm going to stick to itand I'm going to enjoy it.I'm going to like it.It's going to be great.If it's not going to befun, I'm not going to do it.Mind you, you might say that's frivolousand I don't know if that makes sense.But Deepak Chopra, when asked what's themost important thing on the road tosuccess for all of us,who are extremelysuccess oriented, he said joy.He said the most important thing, ifyou're going to be in pursuit of joy,then you're going to accelerate towardsyour success much fasterthan if it's kind of a grind.And I was very happy.I felt that my position in life wasvalidated and justified.And now I can tell my kidswho don't really know Dr.Chopra, but I can say, youknow, I've always told you.And and that was right.So to me, that's what I use.I also listen, I'm a woman.I'm very connected to my intuition.That's a benefit we have over over guys.I'm stereotyping gender.But in general, women are moreconnected to their intuition.And I tap into mine a lot.And then I also, you know, sometimes ifI'm not sure what to do, there are peoplein the old that I cancontact for some guidance.I do have a business coach.I have a vision coach.And so that helps as well.But at the end of the day, really, my myhack is close my eyes.Is this going to bring me joy?Is this fun?Is this exciting?And that's that's how Imake all my decisions.So I'm not not aligned, but I'vestruggled with this because I think Imade a lot of decisions likethat, that I didn't have thediscipline or these.So maybe not justdiscipline, it's around like the.That's the word.The control around your.Well, finances, really like following funand my fun wasn't like I just want to gospend money and have agood time go on vacation.It was like I was doing impact orientedproblem solving in a business contextthat wasn't reaping a financial reward,fulfilling all get out super, superfulfilling and impactful, super fun.I could mark that, yes,110 percent of the time.But without that, like discipline controlaccountability piece.And I'm always like, how do I make surethat I'm always looking at the the twosides of the coin and somebody ispeppering in and maybethe coach is the answer.But who's and for me, it's why I soughtout business partners specifically.I didn't want to run a business of my ownanymore because I am going to bemotivated by things that aren'tnecessarily making sure we're financiallysuccessful because that that number tickjust didn't make sense.But for me, it's always I got to makesure I have two sides to two littleangels on the shoulder.Great question. What is the answer?For me, the answer is the business coach.And so and that's accountability, too.So we run on a system that's that'ssimilar to us, but it's called BOSS 360.There's a brand component in it.And to me, that's tome, that's the answer.So we have our annual meeting, which wejust had, where we look at everythingthat needs to be donefor the business to continue growing.The thing is that I then do not put anytasks on my plate that are not going tobring me joy and are notgoing to be exciting to me.So then I either turn to my businesspartner and say, OK, well,those I'm not so interested in.Those are not going to make my heartsaying, do you want to take them on?We're very fortunate in that we're verydifferent as far asthings that excite us.When I describe what's very exciting tome, it's exciting to himonly in theory and vice versa.So that works really well.And if it's neither one of us, well, thenit has to be someone on the team.So yes, of course, important to have thatplan in place and that clarity.But just as I said, I then don't putanything on my individualplate that will not fuel my soul.And I do reevaluate it frequently, too.There were things in the business when westarted that I loved doing, which I thenrealized they don't.And I hired someone else to do it.I also am not a believer in you need to,you know, have some just work on yourbusiness, not in your business,meaning just replaceyourself across the board.I just don't believe in that eitherbecause if something is in my zone ofgenius and I'm very excited about doingit, it gives me energy.Why would I have someone else do it?Like, I really want to be doing it.That's my business.And I have that, you know, I have theprivilege to be able to do it.But again, if I see that it's no longerno longer bringing me that joy, then Ican hire someone else todo it to do it instead.To me, it has worked.And as I said, also, I amexceptionally growth oriented.I'm always reading,studying, learning something.So that also and so is my my co-founder.So that also supports business growth.But as far as pure decision making,that's that's that'smy that's my compass.That's how that's how I decide.And to give a specific example, becauseyou asked me for anexample before Colby, when I wastangentially contacted to lead to be thechair of the EO Women Global Summit, thesummit was in big trouble because theywere only looking for the chair.October, November, the event is in Juneand nothing had been done on it yet.That's a very shorttimeline for a big global event.The event had just gone from being a myEO event, meaning it'smembers from members.It just became this is the first year, anofficial global event,meaning all eyeballs on you.And they couldn't find a chair.They couldn't find a chair.They asked me if I knew people that Icould refer that were in Canada.And I said, should I justapply or like you keep asking me?And they said, oh, it would be reallynice if you applied.You just you have a lot on your plate.But if you apply, it wouldbe so happy if you applied.And I said, let me sleep on it and I'lllet you know tomorrow.And as I went home and I was thinkingabout that, that's a lot of pressure.That's a lot of work.If it fails and they told me afterwards,if this fails,everyone's going to look at you.You it fails. You fail.This is a big deal, Marina.And as it was evaluating all of that,there were five peopleregistered at the time.Our goal was 100.So there was just a lot. Right.And I was thinking about it.I was thinking about itwas going to be so much fun.Like I get to plan an event for othermembers in Montreal and Ican do it the way I want.And it's just going to be so fun.And so I said, yes. And after I said yes,there were many people whowere like, oh, you took it on.Why would you do that?And listen, we blewpast our registration.We're at one hundred and thirteen lastday checked at one hundred and twenty.We will not fit in the room anymore.So we're really down to our last tickets.It's the first time we've had we've hadsponsors and we havesixty five thousand dollars USand sponsorships is the highest revenuesummit, highest number ofpeople in attendance summit.We're going to have a watch party fromMartha Stewart's powerhouse, which iswhich is coming up in June.It's going to be the biggestwatch party in its history.Over 100 women gatheredtogether to watch powerhouse.But I think I was only able to doeverything that was donewith the help of the mostincredible committee that was energizedwith my energy because Ijust felt that it's so much fun.And now when there'sopportunity to do it again, I'm like,I don't know if it'sgoing to be fine again.So I have to think about it.I know I can do it, but if it's not goingto be fine, it's not going to be as good.So to me, that's thatis how I make decisions.It's like I drove across Canada and backand that was great fun.I don't know if I'll ever do that again.Right. I'll cut it the middle anyway.Central Ontario to like Saskatchewan.That's all right.That's all right.You have a point.You mentioned and I think we've actuallybeen working on somework with clients on this.There's SEO and then you mentioned AEO.And I love and you saidwe can come back to that.And I we've been dabbling in this and Ithink we're saying the same thing, butI'd love to hear what you meant by that.Sure. I'm so excited to talk about it.I just gave a talk to EO New Jersey fivedays ago and it's thefirst time I talked about AEO.And I said, who knows what AEO means?And several people raisedtheir hands and I said, what is it?And they said, it'sAI engine optimization.And I said, it's not.And then I felt like I was so in the loopand so knowledgeable.And they say never to do that as aspeaker, never to feel you make youraudience feel thatthey're not knowledgeable.But in that moment, I thinkof boost is what I went for.I think people feelthat way all the time.You idiot.I remember doing speaker training as partof our global speakersacademy and they said,never ask a question that people are notgoing to get right because you're justmaking them feel stupid.Don't do it. Here I am. I did it.But so I'm super excited to talk about itbecause and just to quickly say, when Ihit the market, I told you that on onehand, we were very nervous that all ourclients would just fire us and go dotheir own thing in GPT.But another concern I had was that ournumber one source of new clientacquisition is referrals.But our number twosource is Google search.And we've done amazing with Google andespecially for a new company, we're inthe number two spot and very proud of it.But then all of a sudden I said, OK, butI'm I'm not using Google anymore.I'm now asking GPT for stuff, which ifI'm doing other people are going to bedoing and now they're notgoing to find us anymore.So what are we going todo? I got very nervous.I'm like number twosource of client acquisition.And all of a sudden and every time wehave a prospective client come to us, Ialways ask the question of how did youfind brand of a leader?And all of a sudden the first person, oh,I think I looked you up in GPT and almostlike uncomfortable, almost apologetic.And I go, yes, they found us in GPT andthen another and thenanother and then another.And clients start coming on board andthey came through GPT.So I went to GPT and I said, how do youfind who to recommend?How does this thing work?And that's where I learned about AEO,which is answer engineoptimization, not AI.And that's where I learned that how AIworks different in its search is it'slooking it's giving results on the backof thought leadership.And so it said, because you, Marina, havebeen investing all these years into yourthought leadership,you are now seeing that.And so it no longer, it's no longer,well, we know that SEO for many yearsused to be a purely technical job, right?Then it became more focused on content.But now with AI search, which focusesmore on who gives the best answers, Iwho's an expert, I who gives uniquethought leadership, because now a lot ofus are using AI forcookie cutter content.There's nothing unique, butwho's given something unique.And now it's feeding results on the backof thought leadership versus just, youknow, here are thewebsites that rank highest.And I've had several people say I ran asearch and it said, here are the topexperts in the field.And then I would say so Marina and Marinaowns a company that's called Round LevelLeader, which is a huge shift in howsearch is done, because now in GPT, butalso how those results are fed.So thought leadership is becoming justhumongously more important.I think any CEO who's not justobsessively investing and building theirthought leadership willlose to the CEO who is.And we're also seeing now more and morewe're having clients who will start offwith the CEO working with us and thenwe'll put their entire executive team.Because to your earlier point in ourdiscussion, Levi, when it all hinges onone person, that mightnot be a great thing.But when that thought leadership is builtfrom multiple people, it becomesexceptionally powerful.And so so that so it went from beingreally potentially bad news for us toreally good news, because now it showsthat thought leadership is even even moreimportant than thanwe could have thought.It blows my mind how people aren'ttalking about this more.Like even the people who like yourselfknow that they nolonger Google things aren't.Thinking about the other sideof that and what that means.I don't Google anythingreally anymore at all.I read it some things.Yeah.And I use Google to access it.No.And GPT pulls a lot from Reddit, right?Because even more so because Reddit isanswers to questions and it favorsanswers to questions.And it's considered the most trustedplace on the Internet today.There you go.And it pulls even morefrom that than Google search.So for people who are GPT and just thatparticipating in the forum and havingthat thought leadership is becoming huge.But it's not so surprising that peopledon't think that it's relevant to them.Because when I speak to business owners,I can see that they'reagreeing with what I'm saying.But in the back of their heads, theythink like, but that's not relevant to mebecause my business is B2B or because I'mB2C or because I'm too local or becauseI'm too global or because I'm too small.Or because I'm too big.Whatever the story, it's identical towhat was happening with social media.When we started first talking aboutsocial media, it was the same thing.It's not for us.Yeah.OK, no, I get it.I get it for other businesses.But for me, I'm small and big.I'm global.I'm local.I'm B2B and B2C.Right.The reasons it's going to hit everyonebecause, again, businesses are going tostart losing to companieswith bigger thought leadership.And it takes time to build.It's not that you can boomand build thought leadership.We do have clients who say, oh, but Ithought I would see results.It's been three months.We can go to the gym and see atransformation in three months.So certainly this is goingto be a lifetime endeavor.But yeah, it's the transformation of thiswhole just of marketing in general hasbeen quite remarkable.Yeah.And I'm fascinated by thosetransformations because a lot of peopleare like it's making it less human.They talk about bosses like I don't know.The directions I'm seeing is it's likeit's going to be harderfor you to show up as human.Like it's going to be thinking.Yeah.Second half question.I'm going before you take it again,Colby, with your big meaningfulphilosophic thoughts.The personal website you mentionedearlier, and I have actually sat on theat LeviLawrence.ca URL.I've owned it and paid theregistration for a decade.And I keep thinking I'm going to do thatbecause I used to do a lot of speaking.And I was like, it's going to branchinside of my company stuff.And I've never bothered doing it.It comes down to silly, stupid things.Like I don't know if like, is itpretentious to have an at LeviLawrence?And what would you have?You wouldn't have Levi at LeviLawrence.Like what a what are you so notnecessarily my specific example of proscons of a personal website.Any any things to be aware of or thingsto avoid or best practices.Listen again, it's a personal thing.I don't believe that everyone needs tohave a personal website.However, when people Googleyou see for me, it's easy.Because if you Google my name, absolutelynobody else comes up.You know, when I came to Canada and Iload the fact that I had a last name thateveryone would make somekind of a comment about.Now I'm really happy there is nobody withthis spelling of myfirst name and last name.So if you Google me, I don'teven need a personal website.It's all me.It's all me.Yeah, it's all me.And images, videos, click around.It's all going to be me.However, especially if that's not thecase for you because you don't have aninteresting unusual name.They added a lot of extra letters to myname because it wasdifferent alphabet, right?We have Cyrillics.So my passport was in Cyrillics.And then when they changed the alphabetand I got the passport, I had to rememberwhat all those letters were.Imagine when they did that thing ofcreating our documents, my sister's lastname did not get a Y and mine did.And so it's very hard for us always whenwe travel together to explain, no, no,no, neither one of us misspells.It's just what it is.But so it was hard for me to remember allthose letters myself.The good thing is youGoogle means just me.So the need for a personal websitebecomes a little bit less prevalent forsomeone who doesn't havethat privilege and luxury.If people Google your name and otherpeople come up, well, when you have adomain and a website, active website withactive content with your name, you'regoing to come up top of search.That's a good thing, right?If people are looking you up.So that's one benefit.Can it feel a little bit narcissistic?I think depends on the content of thatpage and how it's created.So for some people it is.And because a lot of the personalwebsites we see it's a lot of people whojust want to communicate theirself-grandeur or they bought too manycourses on funnels and stuff.And then you go on that website and it'sjust, you know, the final website.Bestselling Amazon book.Everything.Yes.And it's just not a bestseller, right?And it's not, you know, it's just notinspiring and it's not good.So you can create your website that'sgoing to be like a normal website.It's just going to be about, you know,your thoughtleadership and different things.And it can be it can be good that way.As I said, it's helpful if you'respeaking and youknow, it's helpful, right?Because people ask, youknow, I want to see something.Well, what are you going to send them anemail because they want to see a speakersheet, but they also want to see a videoof you speaking in a sizzler reel.So now you're sending like a whole bunchof links and attachmentsand kind of looks weird.You can send them to a page that's morepractical and it's easier.So it's not a must, but but it helps.Now, my recommendation is to avoid againthe same trap that we spokeabout at the very beginning.To not execute and do something beforefiguring out, well, what are you doing?What is your brand again?What's going to be that angle?What's going to be that brand story thatsomeone's going to read on the website?I'm going to be like, OK,he's not one of those guys.He's one of these guys. Right.All that when you figure it all out.That's why the first step of what we dowith clients is figuringout their brand identity.When that's clear, then it's so mucheasier to build the website and to buildthe sizzler reel and to, you know, createcontent on LinkedIn.Because that's that's the foundation.So my biggest recommendation would be tonot do anything withoutfiguring it out first.Which is like using our words against us.Like we use that word every day wheneverybody means likeshouldn't do anything.You shouldn't get to see your own. Youshouldn't do anything.And so you figure out what you're tryingto do and why you're trying to do it.It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.We know that, but not not when it comesto our own visibility.Right. And especially and there's no andno shame in that because wealso get so much bad advice.Right. Because there areso many people out there.Just do it. Just do it. Justpost. Just post. Just do it.And it's just terrible advice, which wewould not take as you said in business.But we think when it's our personalbrand, then that's fine.And it's just the same poor advice orjust post or post amillion times a day everywhere.And it's all advice that's maybe relevantto lifestyle influencers.Right. Just post how you're making yourmorning coffee or just post.I mean, what's there to lose?But we're also like wehave a reputation to protect.Our goal is not to position ourselves aslifestyle influencers.We do want to positionourselves as thought leaders.So just post or just post 100 times a daybecomes a misleadingadvice that we see all the time.Yeah, I think I like that idea because Ithink I'm too short.So when you Google my name or maybe it'sbecause when I Google my name is I haveall the regions and the exposure.But thankfully,there's not that many Levi's.So, you know, I'm stillpretty easy to Google.But they in the top three results and Ijust checked right nowand it's still there.The top three results, no matter whatI've done is Levi Lawrence reflects onthe closer of hiscompany real food connections.And it's a phone.It's been in the top five results everytime I've googled it for 10 years.And it's like like I just need to likeput more content on the other side sothat that drops down acouple of categories.But that is a frame of theidentity when you Google it.That's true, but you bury that with a lotwith not just content, but content that'son high authority pages, right?You know that and you won't completelyeradicate it, but at leastyou at least you bury it.So it doesn't.And I don't want to eradicate.It's an important part of the story.I just don't want it to be the top.And the first.I relate to that.Well, as you as you two talk about this,because I know that Levi'sspoken quite a bit and Marina,you speak all over the world, like it'ssomething that I've been interested infor a while and I've done small bits.And I always just said, like, well, Idon't have anything to say.And that was just like, you know, I hadthe same because I've been a musician for20 years and I never actually wrotelyrics because Ithought I had nothing to say.That was unique or different or whatever.And and I'm noticing a common thread.I'm doing this in real time right now.Noticing this common thread where, youknow, I just I think I justhaven't explored it enough.Like I put so much thought and strategyinto the like whatever business ventureis going on, but I've never really doneit with, you know, my own personal likewho am I to the world?It's interesting you say that.I'd love to hear your thoughts of this,Marina, but I I've never been driven bythe message I want to get out.I've always been the kind of person islike, well, pick me a topic.I want to see how I well, I can say itand resonate like it's it's it's a totalenjoyment of the art.The message really it happens that I'vehad meaningful things I have thoughts onan occasion, but I don't need like that.Doesn't I.What about turnips?Great.Let me talk to you.The Toastmasters guy.Or like or like I used to have we had abunch of debates and, you know, farmsalmon or not farmsalmon, vegan or paleo.It's like, well, give me a side.I'll do either one.Oh, my God.I love those.Mm hmm.Yeah.Chicken versus steak.I'm on it.Give me just pick whichone you want me to take.So I'll a bit more on that.Like I've been watching a lot of stand upcomedy the past few years and what I'vebeen noticing about comediansand I guess I don't know why.I only noticed it with comedians, butit's like the whole idea with a comedianis that you find your angle on thingsthat everyone's talking about.And if that angle resonates with people,whether you're Dave Chappelle, GeorgeCarlin, you know, Shane Gillis, whateveryoung old, it's like you can take thesame subject and it's going to resonatewith different people.Like it kind of hit me a little bit oflike, oh, wait, maybe I do have.Maybe I do have something to say fromlike the angle that, you know, yes, I'mtalking about the same things thateveryone else is talking about.But like, I feel like I could pullsomething interesting.We definitely have an angle and I just, Ijust have to address what you said,because when you said, you know, do Ihave anything of value to say that when Ihear someone says that I just literallyfeel like there's a daggerthat went through my heart.I feel that there's nothing morepriceless than we havethat we have than our voice.Right. And certainly growing up and wasthe Soviet Union, it's it's you know, Ihave that I have that feeling.I became a public speaker for no otherreason other than I have a voice.People can listen to me like I can, youknow, it's such a privilege.And that's what I'm going to do.Mind you, I was at the verybeginning of that journey.I was told by a fellow member to never dothat again, that I would was not good,that I wasn't going to be good.He sent me. Yeah, he sent me an emaildetailing why I should never do it again.I was I was mortified because he was inmy chapter and I would haveto see him again and again.But I continue to.Only because of course you have somethingto say and I have something to say.And we have something to say.We sometimes have to frame it so that wedo feel more confident with it.Right. There are people like you, Levi,who just give me amicrophone and I'll talk on anything.There are people who feel more confidentif they're bringing something like aframework or something to the table witha story that can move and inspire.That's me. So there are different people.But of course, we all again voice isabsolutely just apriceless thing that we have.What helps in the process? Yes.So I can give you an example.I hope he doesn't mind thatI'm going to use an example.But we both know we both know him.Doug Adlam, who is in our in our chapter,when that came to us as a client, hewanted to figure out again, what is hisbrand going to be all about and what'sgoing to be his angle.And I don't even know at the time if hewas I know he's donespeaking here and there.I don't know if that was hisbig focus or became over time.I don't remember. But as we took himthrough the process of introspection andone of the things that we realized washe's one of these guys who gets reallyexcited by the firstfew years of a business.And then when things are doing well andit's kind of incremental, he getspainfully bored and he almost felt, youknow, often people come to us and theywant us to brand them them.Away from where they get criticized.We often get that.So he would say I'm often misunderstoodand people often go like, oh, like, like,I don't know, think that he's justrestless or he's notcommitted, but he's it's just not that.Like, I'm just that's how I'm wired.I am your guy to come andignite things and start things.And as they take off, once they're flyingand it's fine, like the plane's notbreaking apart, then I want to getanother plane off the ground.Right. And so he was like, how like howlike what do I do with that?And so for him, we created the concept ofexponential entrepreneur,exponential entrepreneurship.We said you dug or an exponentialentrepreneur and an exponentialentrepreneur thinks in exponential terms,acts in exponentialterms, creates businesses inexponential terms and anything that assoon as it doesn't feel exponential,because there'sexponential growth, right.And then it stabilizesand trails down a bit.Once it's not exponential,it doesn't fuel you anymore.So boom, all of asudden he feels understood.He can write off the bat instead oftelling people a very long story abouthow he is, he says, I'm Doug, I'm anexponential entrepreneur.And then people go like, well, also youcan kind of already imply meaning to it.It's not a very weird term, but also hecan explain it and thenit gives its structure.So that that became histhing that was our work together.And then he said, well, nowI'm ready to become a speaker.Now I need to design a talk around thetopic of exponential entrepreneurship.And so I said, well, you need to go toGlobal Speakers Academy because EO has aproduct for this and they're going toteach you how to be a speaker.And he was like, I don't know if I'mgoing to go and I don'thave time and the time is bad.The time is always bad for us, right?It's always time or money orsomething's just not not right.And I really went on awhim. I really insisted.Like I felt again, as I said, I'm veryplugged into my intuition.I just felt he needs to go.It was like forcing him and taking a riskbecause it's a big investment.And then if it would have been a flop, Iwould have felt uncomfortable.It wasn't gestalt. I wastelling him what to do.And he went and it was absolutelytransformational for him.Transformational. He's become a speakersince he has quite afew now opportunities.He's been reached out to foropportunities as well.But see, when you have an angle.So now you're like, I'm talking aboutexponential entrepreneurship.People go like, oh, what'sthat? That's interesting.You're bringing somethingnew to the conversation.He already has a plethora of storiesbecause we didn't makesomething up for him.That's irrelevant. Andnow he needs to connect it.He has all thestories. We took it from him.And then he went and packaged it.So he has a talk and a formula that worksfor him and that he'sable to then to then present.So that's that's the roadmap, Kobe, or one of them.I love it. I love it. I love it.What's the it's the global what?Speaker's Academy.It's phenomenal. The next one is inSeptember in Cancun.Going to Cancun next month.Check it out.Global speakersAcademy. That's interesting.Your professional development budget isblown for this year, Kobe.Sorry. Next year.With brothers, we're big learners. We'rebig learners and experience.So yeah, we gotta becareful with that budget.Oh, you tell me about it.Mm hmm. I relate when I saw that budgetat the end of the year in the non budget,when I saw it actuallyspent at the end of the year.Yeah. The hindsight budget.Yeah. Yeah. That's kindof what happens to us too.We've said like sixtimes in the last six months.It's like let's let's better like planfor that budget going forward.It's like. But thenthat conference comes up.That event comes up.We're in planning, but it's it's a mustmust attend and must do.I relate to that very much.Yeah.I we've explored a lot of areas.Is there anything you wanted to ask us orchat about any curiosity you wanted toitch for you?Yeah, I'm very curious about how you guysare marketing the business andwhat's what is your I'm so allergic tothe word funnel, but I guess your mainsources of how you getclients how you get visibility.Great.Why are you laughing?I make this super easy for you.What you said when your business it waslike hey number one's word of mouth.Number two's Google searches ours is wordof mouth and that's where it stops.No, I disagree with that.I'm being hard on this but the word ofmouth number one and since I don't know.Can we say safely say January?We've been like putting a prettyintentional push on on consistentmessaging across three social platformsand we launched the podcast.And we're revamping ourwebsite to kind of match.The problem that we were facing was thatwe were it was hard for people tounderstand what we were doing and kind ofwhat line I didn't need to be puttingit in the business and how do we becomemore of a need than a we were also twocompanies in one for a long time.We were a content creation company andlike a business advisory company andthat is a year and a half ago.We kind of clean that up but I would saywe say word of mouth but underneaththe word of mouth is three managingbusiness owners all invested in deeppeer groups andnetworks like that's a big one.Referrals is a big one.Now we're trying to gooutside of our market.So in Atlanta Canada like we're we'repretty well known or we havestrong networks we can go and get workbut we've made the decision to go outsideof that region.We've done some workoutside of the region.We were planning to go to the US butright now that's kind of pause forthe moment but well we were supposed togo down to a trade mission in theStates.So we plan but thegovernment cancelled it.They were like hey wewe don't know how to go.That's not even go therebut we made the decision.We made like we need toget inside of our own market.We also don't want our sales to bedependent on the ownership which is we'resuccessful but the sales all tied back tothe source of typically one of thethree owners or a client which came fromone of the three owners and solike part of this is the podcast likeit's meant not to be a soliciting salesof our company podcast here but to getourselves out there to meet newpeople to cause conversations.We're starting to sell courses.So like how do your how does your teamuse AI collaboratively is kind ofthe first one like things that are notthe regular spin but ways for usto engage with other people and then I weall took different directions.I started speaking again.So I think next week I have my fourthconference I'm speaking at and so likethat's we're looking for other ways togenerate inbound but yeah we don'thave an easy answer because we didn'tneed it until we needed it and now wewant it.Yeah fair enough.By the way, do you know Colby that one ofthe member benefits that we havewith the EO is that we can write andsubmit articles to Inc magazine.Colby you got to get me this book ofthings you're allowed to use and likecome on now.Honestly Levi nobody knows that that'slike I talked to 20 plus yearsmembers and they're like what I got anemail to from our global editor fromthe from the from the global team whogoes hey Marina I'm low on contentfor Inc for whatever month.Do you have any do youhave anything to say?Like this is terrible like weare a bunch of business owners.Everyone's desperate for PR and for somekind of visibility and nobody knowsabout this.I'm going around telling everyone.Yes, you can send it to and I'll send youthe information Colby.Oh we are writing.Yeah.Yeah, so 800 words itcan't be more than 800.It needs to of course not be solicitingand you should be thought leadershipbased you know stories.Yes, so essentially you writethe article you send it off.Hi, I'm an EO member.I'd love to contribute to Incand then it goes in Inc.com.There's your article and as I said mostpeople don't know that so therethere's your yourvalue from this interview.There you go.If you don't do it Colby, I'll just writeit and put your name on it.Right.There isn't a budget for two EO chaptermemberships right now.So I can't just go and join right now.Totally.Here you go.Just put it under his name or you justsubmit and say here's an articlefrom our from youknow, an EO member Colby.But I would say you know what referralsare the best source of it'sthe best leads right because thoseThe feather on our cap right now is thatwe actually have a lot of repeatclients where over 50% of our clientshave come back for a repeat project.That's gold.And so that's been great.We do like the idea ofthat American dollar.I won't lie.Just because the other thing likeinternally what drives us on theAmerican front was in Canada everybodyfinds some kind of financingsupport for our typeof work, which is great.But in the US they don't and I just likebeing able to stand in yourown to feed and really understand thevalue you're delivering is worththe dollar to a different perspective isthat's a game I'd like towin.I'd like to prove ourselves.It'd be like like I'm funny, but I wantto prove myself on stage andstand up like I want to have somebodywho's going to punch me in theface of it doesn't work out where herethey had it all subsidized whichjust seems to feellike a little bit less.There might be all in my head, but I lovethe idea of finding thatdifferent ring to fight in.No, I relate to that most of our clientsare in the US and and Irelate to that and you know what we do wecharge our Canadian clientsand in Canadian dollars and everyoneoutside of Canada that exactsame amount.So let's say our monthly retainer $1500 amonth Canadian or $1500 USfor outside of Canada.So, you know, we're petriotic theCanadian but also it's it definitelyhelps to have have business outsideselling to somebody outside ofCanada and bringing the money home.It's the most patriotic thing you can do.I agree.I agree.And then my other patriotismwhich is for Ukraine, right?So it hits hits allthe different buckets.Totally.Wow.Is there anything?Anything else that you're working on thatyou're excited about?I have a bunch of very exciting yourroles as I said, so I reallylook forward to that.One of the big ones has been part of theglobal products portfolio.So making sure that our members indifferent regions across theglobe know about all of our productsbecause as you can see wedon't write we don't evenknow about member benefits.And so so that's that role.I'm very excited about onthe business side of things.You know, a lot of people are not surewhat the difference is betweena personal branding agency and in ourcontext and a PR agency.So we're placing bigfocus this year on on PR.We do right nowpodcast placing placement.So we place ourclients as guests on podcast.So that's also you knowPR agencies do that too.We want to expand more into into mediatraditional media maybemore so digital blogs and things likethat because we need to begeographically agnostic because ourclients are all over.So that's a big focus for us right now.And then before the end of the year, wealso want to expand intopublishing.We want to help our clients write books.And so now we're wondering whether wewant to start that fromscratch or much more likely acquire apublishing house becausethey come withcredibility on this kind of thing.It helps when there's credibility and wecan say these are thebooks that had been written.And so by the end of the yearthat's we just did our strataplanning for the year and that's one ofour among other things.That's one of our big goals for the year.So lots of exciting stuff.It's an interesting disruptive world.I'm excited to hear a year from now.How you how you navigated that.I just I'm not a very technical person.I'll say that right now before I say whatI'm about to say, butI just I sat through an SEO audit of ourcurrent website old websiteand I didn't know theeffectiveness of an FAQ until recently.And that's been kindof blowing my mind down.I'm very excited about FAQs.I just want to say that out loud.And writing blogs that areanswers to questions too.You know, I think it's really I thinkmost people don't realizethat call me and that's whyI said that's the new thing.That's the AEO.That's the answerengine optimization, right?You create a new website as a websitewhere people come to getquestions answered.But most people don't don't realize that.That's our big switch.That's huge.How many keywords in an article andthat's just we're past thatnow. It's yeah, it's the it's the FAQ.It's the FAQ on yourLinkedIn profiles, right?As you create in content and write it toyour mentioned and allthose other places.Yeah, yeah, that'sexactly what we're doing now.We got I know we're a few dozen hoursinto just writing some ofthat question contentpulling it from our past projects.So because we answer we ourwhole company is around bringingsimpler answer to complicated questionsfor people who don'thave time to go learn stuff.So like I think we have a reallyinteresting position to be thatplace for easy to understandanswers to complicated things.That's very cool.That's a cool way of putting it too.And that's why also, you know, as youstart thinking about youryour thought leadership, that's alsoguesting on podcast isgreat because that's youranswering questions, right?And if they're on yourexpertise, you're answering questionsand then that other format ofan FAQ will go in a transcriptand aside from, you know, theSpotify and Apple and all thoseplaces is going to be in the transcripts.They post it's going to be in the shownotes on their website.Then you take that andpost it on your website.So aside from launching apodcast, which is great that youguys have done that.I know it's a lot a lot of work alsoguesting on podcast isway less work and and gives those greatAEO benefits as well.Yeah, next steps one step at a time.Yeah, I'm just glad we've been talkingabout the podcast for along time and and and once we got thefirst one, I suppose.What was the first one?So the funny story theVellnerable share for and maybenobody makes it this far into theepisode, but the initiallike pilot episode weaired and we launched it.I think we published it inJanuary and it was just like theorigin stories what I calledit because it's you and I havethe glass of wine talking about what thehell we want this tobe and it's got by farour highest viewership.We recorded it March the year before.Yeah, and it was justlike it took us time.We just put it off and wealways talked about it and it'sbeen much more consistent since then.But I think when we posted that inJanuary, I looked it's likethat was 8 months 9 months 10 months.Yeah, I was living in a different City.But that's very cool.You know, that's something that myco-founder and I have beentalking about as well as we're looking tolaunch another seasonwe have a podcast to is itlooks like there is that shiftfrom those shorter and verypolished like Q&A like verytight podcast to more just kind ofsitting back and chattingespecially I could imagine with you tochatting because yourpartners is just very likecasual natural kind of rightlike going back and forth and it lookslike that's becomingmore of a trend.So that would explain why youknow, that was also successfulone.I like the idea of us beingtrendy, but it's also we hadto design something that gave us joy.We have to enjoy the process.Yes, sir.Your point.One of the things that like like Ithere's a certain aspectof sales that I'm good atwhich is making connections withhumans and then there's the grindday-to-day that sucksthe life out of me like the idea of acold call like I canget in a mood where I can doit for like two days, but likeGod forbid there's anyconsistency required after thatbecause I'm going to need me alcohol.But with the podcast meeting new peoplegoing on these adventureswith the EO and like, you knowtrying to find what's kind ofnot taking all my energy.This has been unbelievable forme because it like it gives meenergy throughout the week.We almost were recording oneonce a week for the last month.We have to slow down, but it's so fun.We had three schedule for this week.We actually pushed something.I was like, it's justlike no, no, no, okay.Yeah, say yes, everybodywho's like is a good fit.It's like we reach out was like, oh, thatwill be a really greatconversation.Let's see if they're interested.Like, yeah, you wantto do that next week?It's like, yes.Yeah.Yeah.Well, thank you for not rescheduling me.This has been really a greatconversation and no, it's great.This gives this is thejoy of our week and month.It is the conversation and even theposting and the conversationsthat come after.So I'm excited to kind of see the triplethe not triple the rippleeffect of these conversations.Likewise and please make sure to give methe link so that I canpromote and share my end as well.I'll geek out and showyou our whole process.It's like I'm deeply technical.So we've got all kinds of stuff coming.Yeah.Thank God.All right.Well, I yeah, complementary skills andalignment on values.100 percent is what we got.It's the superpower.Yeah, agreed.Well, I think this is areally great nice point to end.And I mean, I am that guy who looks at the timeline and say, oh,we finished that wefinished exactly on time.It's just magical.That's one of the biggest things I'velearned in the O's start ontime and on time.I've heard that for so many times.I used to manage those types of retreatsfor many, many years.So I'm like, I'm constantly.Yeah.Thank you very much for your time.And I will make sure that there's shownotes with all the linkspossible of where to find it.So we won't be just usconnecting and giving you a link.It'll be making sure we really supportall the people we talkedabout organizations and events.Well, I really enjoyed this conversation.Thank you guys so much for having me.Yes.Thank you.See ya.This episode of Built to Last is broughtto you by Ironhouse Pro.You're behind the scenes partner inbuilding organizations designedto thrive.We specialize in solving the bigchallenges, the small annoyancesand everything in between.So while you're out there dreaming big,we're here making sure yoursystems, processes andpeople are ready for tomorrow.Ironhouse Pro driven tocreate lasting organizations.Learn more at IronhousePro.com.