Why People-First Isn’t Enough: Rethinking Culture with Pierre Battah Artwork

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Why People-First Isn’t Enough: Rethinking Culture with Pierre Battah

July 11, 2025 • Levi Lawrence and Colby Jardine • Season 1 • Episode 12

Challenging common leadership mantras with wisdom, wit, and real-world stories.

In this episode of Built to Last, Levi and Colby are joined by leadership expert, award-winning author, and jazz bassist Pierre Battah. What begins as a nostalgic reconnection turns into a candid, insightful exploration of leadership, organizational culture, and the future of work. Pierre shares personal stories from his transition from HR executive to independent consultant and speaker, lessons learned through tough client calls, and his approach to reshaping culture from fear-based to learning-oriented environments.

The conversation dives into the nuances of facilitation, performance psychology, and the evolving employer-employee relationship. Whether you're an entrepreneur, executive, or emerging leader, this episode offers practical wisdom and plenty of inspiration.

Links and Resources Mentioned
Pierre Battah –https://www.linkedin.com/in/pierrebattah/
Pierre Battah’s website and book https://www.pierrebattah.com/
Canadian Association of Professional Speakers (CAPS) https://www.canadianspeakers.org/
David Allen – Getting Things Done https://gettingthingsdone.com/

Quotes Worth Sharing
“It’s not about being happy—it’s about being engaged.”
“I didn’t set out to be an entrepreneur. I set out to be independent—and then got hooked.”
“Culture isn’t ‘people first.’ It’s results through people.”
“Safety isn’t soft. It’s the foundation for productivity.”
“Not all things that are curious are part of the work.”

Segment Breakdown
07:00 – Changing the Employer-Employee Relationship
Reframing leadership in the age of talent scarcity.
From “you’re lucky to have a job” to “we’re lucky to have you”
Why culture change is harder than culture theory

14:00 – People First? Not Quite.
Why “people first” can be misleading
The importance of balancing empathy with high standards
Creating cultures that are challenging, not coddling

20:00 – Breaking the Culture of Fear
A real-world example of cultural fear at a successful company
Transitioning to a learning culture: the power of debriefs, safe space, and senior-level self-awareness
Why some leaders need to step back for progress to happen

27:00 – When to Walk Away from a Client
Recognizing misalignment, even when you're hired
Ethics and candor in advisory roles
When great work isn’t the right fit

33:00 – Craft of Facilitation & Speaking
Pierre’s journey from comfortable speaker to certified pro
Learning the science behind storytelling, delivery, and adult education
The blend of edutainment and real impact

41:00 – Writing a Book & Building Credibility
The surprising reason Pierre decided to write Humans, Resourced
Behind the scenes of hybrid publishing and distribution
Why a book may not be a business—but it can still build one

61:00 – Advice for Young Professionals
Stop chasing passion—start with what you’re good at
The unexpected journey from engineering to agriculture
Why trying and failing early matters

68:00 – The Future of Work & Leadership
The two biggest trends to watch: AI and patterns in your own business
Importance of white space and strategy time
Why being surrounded by big thinkers matters

75:00 – The Limits of Psychology in Change Work
Behavior change vs. emotional diagnosis
Organizational coaching and habit adoption
The role of incentives in leadership development

83:00 – Levi & Colby Reflect on Resistance
Why meaningful change often starts with organizing your data
The resistance to long-term investment when ROI isn’t immediate
Why “working with” instead of “working at” is a mantra at Iron House

1:00:00

Welcome to Built to Last, the podcast whereentrepreneurs share real stories about thetriumphs and challenges of building enduring success.Hosted by Colby Jardine and Levi Lawrence.All right, welcome back to another episodeof the Built to Last podcast where I'm reallyexcited.I have so many things I want to chat about.Pierre and I, Pierre's going to introduce himself.Nobody needs to read a bio that long.I'll let him pick what he wants to say or not.People redefine themselves.Maybe it'll be a new bio I've never heard.But I met Pierre at a conference in myearliest time where I was ever thinking about businessleadership or entrepreneurship.So it was almost 15 years ago, I believe.And then I've had a chance to almost everycouple of years run into in some capacity.And so I'd love to... half of this will benostalgia, half of this will be catch up,half of this will be understanding the future.And I have some guilty pleasure questions I'm looking forward to.And before I jump into the questions, maybe I'll just pass it off.And how would you introduce yourself to somebody who has no idea who you are today?Good morning.It's great to see you both.Well, I mean, arguably, I'm a teacher.I think that's the shortest framing I teacharound leadership and have done so for a numberof years in a variety of formats.My background is HR.And since we spoke, I was bestowed afellowship in HR, which is a really nice way of saying,move along.There are other people coming up behind you.Could you please get out of the way?So along the way wrote a book and have been spending my...I've been spending most of my time helpingfolks become better leaders and managers andhopefully helping create better workplacesand more productive and profitable environments.And one of the fun things about thisconversation is similar but very different to us is thatour business isn't helping other businesses.And so when we have these conversations,we have our own experiences in our own lens,but we also, without having to give anybody'sinformation up, we have the benefit of otherperspectives and we have the benefit of learning from others.And so I just find sometimes these arefascinating conversations because you can get examplesand stories from all different areas.And all of us have the muscle of tellingsomebody else's story without giving away their story.And I just think that's a really good muscle to have.I'm going to start with one question and then we can take it.You have agency in this conversation, just soyou know, we want this to be back and forth.So feel free to take the baton.But the first one I had, I was thinkingabout it, I was at a shower this morning becausea lot of people I think would see you as speaker, advisor, author, teacher, I thinkis a good word for it.But at some point you worked in businessesas an employee and at some point you decidedto do your own thing.And so one, I'm wondering like what was the catalyst for that?But also at any point did you ever put onthe like, I'm now a business owner entrepreneuror was it just like that mental switch I'malways interested in when people take thaton and was it framed or was that found in hindsight?It's interesting.The foundational work was as an HR director and HR executive.And I had this little itch and somebody hadkind of mentioned to me, you might, have youever considered?And I had quite frankly, entrepreneurship being out on my own.I suspected I would work for other people for the rest of my life.And I was, I don't know, 15 years in thatjuncture and Mark Soret who owned RobertsonSoret, a human capital firm, which later became Knight's Bridge.In the HR field, very successful businessguy talked to me about having a stake in hisbusiness as a managing partner.And that was kind of the first door thatopened that had me thinking about doing this in adifferent way.Did that for a decade.And I think the old adage goes, you gettired of making money for other people and justthought and by then was getting quite content, Chris and difficult generally.So thought it might have been time at that juncture.And you know, quite frankly, I didn'tthink of myself as an entrepreneur in any way.I was just going to be an independent, right?We don't use the language freelancer, but I was going to be a consultant.I was going to hang up my shingle as aconsultant, became a certified consultant, did that fora while.And then as I started to surround myselfwith people contractually and otherwise, I kindof started to realize that I'm in this.And other people's work depends on my bringing work in and continued in that world.And then of course you get hooked, right?And as I started hanging around withpeople like you and others who are entrepreneursand are in business and then started torealize as well that I had always had hooks into thatworld just didn't really realize over time.My clients in those stages were all small andmedium sized enterprises in my early goings.So was rubbing elbows with that cohort and have never looked back.I mean, and now at this point, when theygive you a fellowship, it means you're goingto move on.And I ain't going back to anything and I would never go back to being an employee.But the sheer joy of being able to craft myown way and devise my own path became integralto the work that I was doing.When you were saying the words, I had the bugger, I was getting the hook.And I was like, you're becoming less and less employable.It's probably at the same time.Yeah, I often say that about myself islike I wouldn't, I'm very unemployable at thisstage of my life.I suspect I'd be, I was quite unemployable while still being employed.Which may have precipitated things.Yeah.Yeah.Which is kind of funny because you help people be better employers.So use the self-awareness which helps.Do you have anything, Colby?I tend to, I worry sometimes when I jump in here, it's like, all right, I've got tocreate space.No, it's all good.Like I don't know, Pierre, as well as you do.I've only chatted once and I have lots of questions.Like I guess in regards to the work thatyou're doing, how have you seen things change overthe past 15, 20 years for employers?Yeah.I think the biggest piece, I have a history, I'm a recovering headhunter.So I was in that game when the words warfor talent were being divided, language whichI abhor, by the way.So that shift came earlier than 10, 15 yearsago when all of a sudden talent became sucha hard to find commodity and hard to keep commodity.So I think the short answer is I've seen overtime for reasons of pure obligation, employershaving to reconsider the relationship thatthey have with their folks through the factthat you just can't go to the street andhire people as some say you used to be able todo quite some thing.I'm not sure that was ever the case.I mean, clearly there were better numbersyears ago in terms of people trying to recruit.So I think, I think, Coby, the shortanswer is I think through obligation and maybe Iwould like to think just people seeing the light for a variety of reasons.The relationship that people have engaged with their folks has evolved.I was reading this interesting piece yesterdaythat employee stress is a business risk issue,not an HR issue, for example.And that's just a small sliver of how we'rereframing and redefining the reality of howworkplaces work well if you have a bunch of people involved.So I think that somewhat through my rose-coloredglasses of being primarily in the human businessaround business, I think that's been a striking evolution.You mentioned the kind of talent war hunt or whatever it might be.Do you mostly work in Canada or do you work outside of Canada as well?Yeah, for the most part, yes.Like I was reading, what's his name?Peter Zion, The Economist.The book is called The End of the World as We Know It.And he talks a fair amount about like Japan and Canada and the population issue.And in my mind, I would assume that thatproblem has become a more complex and there's still,I don't know if it'd be a war for talent,maybe we could choose different words, butit feels like that would still be happening today with like the population.And then with the mass immigration stuffthat's happening in Canada and has happenedin Canada, there's also like the talent for the jobs that we're looking to fill.Like what's, yeah, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that situation.Yeah, there's, you know, when I'm working with business people in groups, you know,the question typically is what is on thepeople side of your enterprise, what is themost looming challenge and what are you most concerned about?And it's critically, it's filling key rolesin a way that allows entrepreneurs and businesspeople to sleep at night.So not just warm bodies, right?Yeah, I don't think that's going away.And for all the, you know, did the pandemicjust kind of exacerbate all that because ofall the things that happened and thecollision of that and what demographers had been andeconomists had been talking about for a generation around, right?The baby boom and all that kind of stuff.So I think we will continue to struggle inhaving the right folks in the key roles, theimportant roles in the enterprise, right?I see, and whether it's throughimmigration, whether it's through the joy of AI or whathave you, I'm hearing less about I have scores of vacancies.Oh my goodness, what will I do?I am hearing more, I am struggling with thiskey role or two or three or four in my enterprise.So it's right.It's not these mass vacancies.I mean, that's still true in some sectors, I'm sure.But it's not mass vacancies as much as itis finding very specific talent in very keyroles.And I don't think we're out of that one for a while yet.Well, and we're seeing that too.Maybe I'll step it back and, you know, give you further unsought praise.I realized we were thinking about it is a lot of what we do came from some earlier,so there's learning your viewpoint on humanity at work was a big driver.And then I've already told you this,Colby, but I had a real reframing, I had a guestspeaker in and, you know, it was a privatespeaking, so I won't name them, but they havea four or 500 person business.And this was a few years ago, it was right before COVID.And he had already made the decision to leave the seat of CEO.And he was bringing in a new one.And he's like, it's not because I'm done,it's not because I have no energy, it's becausethe world's changed around me.And he had been running the business 20 years earlier.And when I gave somebody a job, I was doing them a favor.And I was like benefiting them.And he's like, now when I give them a job,they're doing me a favor and they're benefitingme.And I'm not necessarily that's a bad thing,but I know that my mind can't shift at thesame pace that that's shifting around me.And so he's still the owner, but he's like,it's time for a new executive that can, youknow, not only deal with this, but actually thrive in this.And it's the first time I've heard a seniorleader at that time who had articulated itand was so self-aware and was taking proactive action.And it's like a lot of the stuff I've heardyou and a lot of stuff I read my own personalbeliefs from managing and leading in different industries.Like it just was like, that's, that is the change for me.Like I remember getting my first jobs and it was like, I thank you employer.And now like I'm hiring somebody and I'm like, thank you employee.But what that led to where a lot of what wedo is, and I don't know if you're even awareis it's great that lots of people like you are giving really great ideas.And these points that I just had is like, oh, mind shift.We need to do that.But then most organizations aren't able toswitch to the environment that those rightpeople are going to thrive in or the likeculture shift or the, and we, I mean, cultureshift is something we've helped tackle, but it's a beast.There's so many factors, but then even the,like if you want like a better hiring processor a better onboarding process, or if youwant access to knowledge and training, that'smore a fit for what people are expecting.Like those are mammoth shifts.We mostly work in organizations that are like dozens to hundreds, not thousands.And I guess where I got to and what we'redoing and why I'm agreeing is like, even ifthey're convinced that you're right or thatthat is the movement, like it's, it's, it'sa lot to turn on a dime in an organization.And I love like seeing that like, here's the tangible action.Here's the like, yeah, you need a messagingtool because people aren't always in the officeor you need virtual meetings because noteverybody's in the office or you need access to, you needa handbook that's not on a binder in a shelf somewhere collecting dust.Like, uh, yeah.Interesting in this work.When I was writing the book, the, um, therewas this push by the, uh, then publisher who'ssadly no longer in business, but, um, and,and the, the, the, the music I was hearingfrom a lot of, um, you know, back to thethank you, thank you for being an, thank you forjoining my company and being here, um, is this notion of people first, right?Um, and, and, and I, I bristle at that.I mean, I, I really have difficulty withthat notion and people centric organizations andpeople first and, and all of those real and you speak of the cultural piece.I think good culture comes by a few, whateverthat means, some reasonably smart people gettingtogether and thinking about what they want culture to look like and to be.Um, and for us to come go running aroundand saying, well, our culture is people firstand our culture is people centric.And it's all about the people.Well, actually it isn't right.It's actually about reasonably balancing aculture that, that, that thrives and focuseson results, uh, through sound strategy andsound planning and good thinking and all ofthe processes, the management processes thatcome around that, um, married to the leadershipstuff that we want to talk about, which ispeople centric and people first and, um, puttingpeople at the front of the parade and all of those other kinds of things.And I think, you know, as you speak of cultureand the reality of, I, I think the ones whereI see really important work being done and,and, and success in shaping culture is becausethey have married, they, they have marriedthis focus on people and this focus on results.They are typically hard places to work forbecause they have high standards and leadersand managers understands that first andforemost, their job is to uphold very high standards.Yet doing so in a way that makes people wantto show up every morning and feel relativelygood at the end of the day, having, havingput in a hard day, a hard day of problem solvingand dealing with that yo-yo and purchasing is always a challenge.Right.So I, I'm, I'm a fan of thinking aroundculture around how do we create these environmentswhereby it's, it's hard, man.It's called work for a reason, right?It's not, it's not, it's not meant to be a country club.Um, and if we can bring those two thingstogether and create those kinds of cultures, I thinkthose are the kinds of places that, that are,And I think it was the first time I heard it, but I, I still, I steal it in privaterooms all the time.But the whole idea is that not everybody who needs happy, they need engaged.And it's like, nobody really wants to livein, and I'm sure there are people who wantto be in a country club, but like that'snot like for a high performer or somebody it'slike, I don't really want to live in a place where nobody's working hard.I want to have that engagement.I want to have that feeling.I've said this, um, you know, this is nocomment on our company now, Colby, but I've never,ever felt the satisfaction of leaving a shift ora day of work with a level of like satisfaction.It's when I finished, I was a professionalline cook and bartender and leaving a shiftthat like other humans, I don't think would have been able to execute.It was that hard of a day.And I walked out at the end of the night withthe other people I was there with trauma bonded,I'm sure.And that level of satisfaction that was like,I think I, if I still say hell Tuesday, there'sat least a dozen people out there wouldknow the exact day that was the hardest ever.Um, and that was resulted in the greatestsatisfaction of the greatest personal satisfaction.I mean, you wouldn't want that all the time either though.Yeah.I had a, I had a first kind of bad businessexperience that I've shared on this podcastbefore and I won't bore people with thestory again, but I remember thinking to myself,um, do I trust people again and potentially get run over again?Or do I think of the handful of people thatI'd go to war with for the rest of my lifeand enjoy it and assume that there's more and, uh, choosing that adventure of like,you know, having a bit of a better radar for a good fit.Um, because you spend so much time with these people.Um, it's pretty important that you're adoing hard things and, you know, being able to gothrough hard things together as a team is also interesting.And, uh, yeah.And actually that made me think of somethinglike how often, cause there's, I mean, thisis a very obvious statement.There's, there's what people say and wanttheir culture to be, but then there's whatpeople feel in a culture.Um, can you talk a little bit about, um,fear in, in a culture and how you may have dealtwith those delicate situations, uh, where,you know, somebody saying something, I'vegot this really great culture and, but yet, uh, they're terrified.Like they might not even know that the staffare terrified to make decisions or, or whatevermight be.We see it often and we've, you know, beenin that situation and yeah, I just would loveto know what you think.Cause like, how do you, how do you tackle that issue?Uh, cause it's obviously, there's obviouslya deep emotional attachment to the way thatpeople do things and, uh, if we can havethat as actionable steps, that would be great.Yeah.Yeah.I just love to know like maybe a couple, uh,uh, songs names, but like a couple of examplesof maybe, have you seen that in your work?I mean, that's probably, yes, but I, I was doing, I was doing a thing.Um, the company will remain nameless, butI was with, um, the top of the house and afair number of them, a fairly sizableenterprise and, uh, there was a snowstorm and, and, uh,for whatever reason compelled me, I drovethrough the damn thing and got myself to thelocation safe and sound.A third of the people, um, arrived quite late because they couldn't get there.So I was speaking to two thirds of the group.And, uh, you know, fellas, I've been doingthis for a while and I know which, I know whatgets a laugh.I know what works right as I'm working with, with the group.And, and man, I was doing my best stuffand nothing, it wasn't, it wasn't happening.And it was largely around culture.Yeah.It was largely around leading and managingin such a way so that, um, to, to restate whatI said a while ago, people, people feel good at the end of the day for havingcontributed and, and, uh, whilst it is difficult, um, they derive a fair amount ofsatisfaction from that.At any rate, the thing ends and there's polite applause and then everybody leaves.And, um, two of the, uh, two of the senior leaders come to the stage and say, look,we're really sorry, Pierre.You know, typically because of the storm,we weren't able to do the raw, raw sessionthat usually happens before you show, youwould have showed up and people, you know,they just, they were stiff and they weren't, they weren't with it.I said, okay, well, that's fine.You know, hopefully there was some messagingthat made some sense and I knew I was goingto come back and work some more with you.Anyway, so that senior leader, the secondsenior leader, I don't know what the, uh, thedecorum is on your podcast for language, but I'll, I'll keep it clean.The second senior leader says, uh, uh, that's bullshit.Uh, everybody in this room is scared, uh, to laugh.Uh, they're afraid to, uh, speak up.They're afraid to offer any kind of an idea that might be perceived as a knot inkeeping with what the owners and the, uh, founders have in mind.Um, so, uh, pla, successful enterprise,uh, you know, doing well in the marketplace,but admittedly, um, had come up against a culture, uh, where fear was predominant,where people didn't feel safe.Um, they certainly were concerned about beinghumiliated and embarrassed on a daily basis.And as a result of that, and the personwho had called bullshit on the first one wasessentially hired to change that.Um, and I was going to be part of that exercise.So, um, there was a, there was a rethinking of what does it mean for people?It wasn't about engagement anymore.This was purely a safety play.And whether people, uh, sure, uh, clarity made was important.People having abject, um, understanding their work had impact was important.Understanding that their work, um, was meaningful.All of the right things that we would do around engagement were still relevant.But at the top of the list, people didn't feel safe.I mean, these are, these are senior folks.These, these are not, you know, but it permeated the entire organization.Having, having spent a bit of time withthem, not, not much, but, but then watch them,you know, they just, they started break.First of all, they quite frankly asked that some people no longer lead.Um, they made some tough decisions at the top of the house and said, you know what?Um, yeah, we can't fire you because you're, you're, you're an owner.Um, but you're, you're paying us to tell you, give you the straight goods.Uh, the straight goods is that we aren't gettingthe best out of our people because they're scared.Um, they will not make a suggestion that they feel will not please you.Um, so we don't think you can change.Um, this is a really smart piece.We don't think you can necessarily change this who you are.So, so you need to let us run the enterprise.So back to your story a while ago, Levi, youknow, having the self-awareness of that CEO to say,this ain't my play anymore.I'm not sure that they fully stepped back, but they did, they did put some,they put some pieces in between them and some of their folks in order to, you know,I don't feel this is not about being nice.Um, this is, this is about how you react to when people make mistakes.Right.So it's a culture whereby mistakes are an opportunity.It's a learning, you know, all of the stuff,you know, we, we debrief everything we, uh,they moved to that, you know, they were doing 200projects a year and they would debrief 10% of themonly with the ones that went really, really badly.So they shifted that to debriefing all of themand using those opportunities and essentiallymoved towards a learning culture that that wasthe definition for them was we need to move to alearning culture. Um, asking questions is howwe, people didn't ask questions before, man.They were scared. Right. And now you were onthe hook for asking questions, whether you werelying people or supervisor. So they, they movedto a culture of learning in, in all of the ways.And over time, I understand a couple ofyears later that, that, that culture of fear hasdissipated quite a bit. Well, that's greatto hear success stories. I mean, we see it,but it's just so slow. And if you're stillwith them, it's hard to like track it. It's likewatching kids grow. Um, we do, um, I mean,you'd be familiar with all the concepts and I'm notcertified in any of them, but we do this like twohour workshop at the beginning of any meaningfulchange assessments, strategic planning. Like we know this is going to need to bemulti stakeholders, serious conversationand some healthy conflict. And we do, and we,we built in, there's some, um, you know,some personality understanding that people aredifferent. Um, and then there's the fivedysfunctions. We cover the whole pyramid offive dysfunctions. We do the emotional or relationship bank, you know, the back andforth. We do the third alternative. We doemotional intelligence. We do, we pack it allinto one narrative over two hours. What hashappened though, and I love doing that. It'smy favorite thing is I think we've given thattalk and 50% of the time, light bulbs are justconstant. They're just like never heard thesethings ever. It's like, great. Uh, but then we'vesuddenly armed everybody with the language toarticulate what's going wrong. And twice I'vehad them just immediately, everything justgoes right sideways because the owner was unawarethat these were the issues. And when suddenly Isay like you have issues because you have trustand you need to have healthy conflict. Andthen suddenly it's, uh, it's been interesting,but at the end of the time we're not goingto be successful with the longterm anyway.So better to find it out sooner, I guess. Haveyou ever had, and I assume the answer is yes,but have you ever had a client since you've been in control of who you take clientsthat you've had to leave that you've chosen to leave, not just finished?Yeah. Yes. Like not a fit. We're not going tobe successful. Yes. So I wasn't yet a fellow,but as you're approaching fellowship, as you're, as you, yeah, I just, I've had,I've had an uncomfortable conversation ortwo along the way that said, I'm not the best,you know, you, you, you frame it gently inthat. I don't think I'm the best person for thissituation. Given where the, well, well, I, Ithink, I think it's partly you because you brought me inand I'm not sure I'm the answer here. And let metell you why I think that, right? With the fullconfidence, Levi, that I, I can do goodwork. I mean, but as we go into organizations andtry to help and try to do no harm and, and, andtry to, my, my, my, my piece is quite simple. I'm,I'm there to help people feel better equipped tobe tackling the really tough stuff that they'retackling and doing that well. But previously Iwas doing more hands-on consulting and going inand doing projects with employers. And at thattime, yeah, absolutely. I would find myself insituations where I don't, I don't think myskillset was best. But often that was 20% of the time,80% of the time, quite frankly, the client simplywasn't, they were, they were saying all the rightthings in terms of wanting to fix, evolve orchange. And yet, you know, it, it's, I, I certainlywasn't the one that was being able to unlockwhatever that thing was. And it wasn't, you know,as part of my certification as a certifiedmanagement consultant, I had an ethical obligationto be able to tell them, man, you're throwingmoney out the window. And, and whether it's me orit's us or it's you, this ain't working. And Iwould urge you to, and then, and then help themthink around if they were still receptive to itand they weren't able to help them think aroundwhat might be something that would get them closerto what they say they want to do. And then I wouldhelp them maybe get a picture of what's reallyhappening, right? Because you guys have seen thisgoing in, right? What is stated to you is whatwe need help with. And what the client actuallyneeds help with can sometimes be verydifferent things, as you have. And I think that's our,and our role, our role in large part is tobring clarity to that. So when I was doing moreconsultancy work, I think that was, I thinkI was reasonably good at that and would helpclients understand that. Let's agree that let'sassume your thesis is correct. But give me a windowto go validate that in whatever way we would dothat. And then let's have a conversation and makesure that what you think needs to happen needs to happen. Yeah.I'm trying to figure out exactly how to askthis. But the, has there been or do you have somecommon conversations that you're able to pull out or ways of shifting perspectivein those kind of tougher situations to help themrealize that maybe, you know, this is a top downissue? And like, is there, is there certaintricks or things that you use to soften that or,or I know it's not always necessary to softenit. But has there been things that you've usedover and over again that have seemed to clickfor people? I think data is your friend if you can,if you can manage it. Right. So a simple five question survey using a survey toolthat enables you to kind of square what isreally happening in their workplace against what theyperceived was happening and they retained me orsomebody else that to see that that just doesn'tconnect. I've used that I've used interview,same piece. It's just I've used interviews andconversation and tried to while protectingfolks, obviously, try to bring bring that to bear.It, you know, Kobe, at the end of the day,I think if we are reasonably successful inputting ourselves in situations as providerswith organizations where we can do the mostgood, I would hope that I would have the kind ofrelationship with that individual where I couldjust lay it out. Right. Right. And the factthat I wouldn't be able to might be a signal thatsomething else is going on here, right? In terms,in terms of what I might actually be able to bringor what anybody might actually be able to bring.And there's their state of readiness. I've used the,I use the tool. It's an old, old tool. It'scalled the change readiness assessment, right? It's 15questions about, you know, how ready,willing we've hidden those into our organization.You know what those are like. Sure. You know, so,so I think, I think sometimes that those kinds oftools, you've been in situations like I havewhere, quite frankly, the tools don't matter.The data didn't matter. The interviews didn'tmatter. It's the conversation that you can havewith the owner and the CEO or the senior folks.In other cases, you need the, you need to be armedwith some of that if you're going to hold.Right. So yeah, I think it's a variety and it's verydependent on the relationship. Do you, sorry, Levi, I've got so many questions.Derick, I'm going to shift us a little bit after this one. That's fine. Do you,I forget where that was going. Take it away, Levi.Well, you mentioned earlier around like, youknow, that I'm good and I can run a room and,and I very much know that. I actually like, Ilike your principles. I like your content. I'vestolen some of it and it comes out and can't work.I'm sure. But people ask recommendations. And whenI recommended you as a speaker, it is probably80% you're able to manage a room and facilitateand 20% the content. Like I feel like I could giveyou content and you will be a superior facilitator.And I've told you this before, but I'm the lastfew times I've gone and heard you speak are typicallybecause I've brought a group or brought you intoa group I was affiliated with. And I'm no longertaking notes in your content. I'm taking notesin your delivery. And I'm, my question is, and I,I actually have some real good takeaways thathave changed how I'm doing it that feel likethey're thought out and intentional. At whatpoint did you, or is this innate? It's totally,could be innate, but at what point did youlike look at the business of facilitation,the way that you keep people's attention andpeople engagement and the entertainment slashseriousness and the stories, like it feelsvery thought out and intentional. Yes. But you cantell me it's not. Well, I think, I think,you know, both things can be true. Right. Sodo I bring a certain, a certain talent aroundthat? I think the objective answer would be yes.Right. I was, I was the MC in grade nine. Right.So there's, there's, there's a, there's a throughline. That said, there did come a juncturewhere like most things that I want to do,I needed to kind of get some schooling or learnfrom the masters of, of the sector. So in my case,that was the Canadian association of professionalspeakers. I attended a bunch of their conferences.They had a certification process, which, you know,certifies you as one of a handful of people aroundthe world at a high level as a professionalspeaker. I saw it. I didn't care about thecertification, but I cared very much about thecoaching I would receive, the conversations Iwould be having with very seasoned presentersand the presenters I would watch and then have toput myself on a stage in small rooms of eight andlarge rooms of 800 and try to apply those skillsand then get evaluated on how that works. Sothat was all very deliberate. So I heard you in yourjourney when you took that step. I had beenconsulting for a while and was increasinglywanting to shed the consultancy work because I wasokay as a consultant, fairly good, but not great.But on a platform in a training setting,smaller, large room is where people would call, they,those are the calls I'd get back. And I had,in fact, I had a client say that to me one day,you know, they said, they said, you were an okayconsultant. We really appreciated your work. Butwhen you got in front of our employees,everything happened. So that's where the phone was ringing.Right. So Levi, thank you. Your comments are verygracious. So I would argue that there is a blendof, yes, I've been doing that for since I was akid, was comfortable in doing so, but I workedhard at getting the quote unquote tricks ofthe trade in such a way so that those are blendedinto. And what you see in 75 minutes or in a dayor in our case, you know, you've watched me workfor a short or long period is a combination ofall of that. So this actually translated to someof the stuff we're talking about internally isaround, because this is kind of, you know, I geton stage, we facilitate in rooms on asemi-regular basis, enjoy it. And we have a professionaldevelopment budget internally, and we'retrying to decide how to spend it. Like what type of,I don't need dollars and cents and pricing, andI'm sure it's changed over time, but I'd love tohave like a scope of what that looks like. Is thatequivalent to going to do an MBA in time and effortand dollars or is it? Yeah, you know, Ithink for three years I went to a semi-annual,semi-annual is that twice a year? Yeah, twice ayear I would go to those conferences where you'resurrounded by the finest speakers in the land.So, you know, the next one's in Halifax, as a matterof fact, in December. And there's a variety ofworkshops, you know, I sat with an author fromthe Dallas Morning News about, and he taught meevery Disney movie how the arc of the storytellingworks, right? And that we all, so those seriesof workshops were helpful. I also read, there wassomething written in the world of speakingand then moving that away from speaking to,I had an interest in the facilitation and theeducation, the adult ed piece of it as well,right? Because you said it a while ago, this isedutainment. You know, what the client had saidis the consulting work is great, it was good,but your ability to carry it off with our staff iswhat pushed it over the edge. So, I understoodthose two things to be connected. So, I thinkit is edutainment, right? I love that term.I initially got very interested in just whatdoes the container look like? You know, how do youmap out a 90 minute, 75 minute, a full day workshop,right? Okay, cool. Both in terms of so that at theend of that day, you get high scores on engagement.People were engaged in your thing. Let's faceit, if the content scrap, the content scrap. And Imean, you can dress it up all you want. So,then I very quickly, once I had those rudiments,I very quickly turned to paying much moreattention to the art, in my case, to the leadership work,and so on and so forth, so that I knew that thecontent that I was working with, and the mannerof putting it forth, respecting adult educationprinciples and how people like to learn and thosekinds of things, I quickly turned my attentionthere. And that was just a self-study. You know,I just read like a, like a fool tried toapply that material. And speaking of books, whenwas the decision to write the book? And was itdriven by I want a foot in the door and a waveto better market and a solidified presence? Orwas it, was there another, because I have to assume,and correct my verand, is not really like abusiness around a book on its own anymore.My assumption is that that's just not an industry.Well, not for us. Not for us. I mean, you know, Imean, if you're Chris Hadfield and you come backfrom space, there's a business in the book,right? I mean, but for us yo-yos, you know, I'm not sosure. So, I can tell you the moment, I can tellyou the city, I walked up to this, I'm doing athing, there's a hundred middle managers that I'mgoing to be speaking to. And they said, they ranto the door and they said,"Oh, Mr. Batter,we're so glad that you're here. We're really lookingfor you. You're one of two speakers that we haveover the course of our day. We're really lookingforward to you spending some time with ourmanagers. They're really struggling as we told you."But we have Levi Lawrence as well. And he wrote a book.Like, it was like the pecking order on this one,right? So, so, so one, one data point, right? He'slike, "Oh, okay. I, you know, I have a bit ofan ego. So, clearly, clearly I'm a second-classcitizen to the author, right?" And the otherpiece was when I was doing the work and reallylearning the business of speaking andtraining and trying to understand how that worked,the, the one of the very important pieces thatwas, that I walked away from was essentially aladder of credibility and that the top rung ofthe ladder was a, a published, not self-published,but a published book was the top rung, right?Now, at that stage, I had had what, 10 years on CBC,right? I'd been a National SyndicatedColumnist. I'd been speaking every week for 10 years onleadership HR workplace issues. So, so I thinkthey gave me a fourth rung for the CBC where I"Damn, I want that top rung!" Right? So, so married those two things together and,and I just made the shift from the consultancywork to more speaking and training. It just seemedto make sense. And then just, I just startedexploring what that meant. What I, what I tookaway that it just hadn't clicked before, itshould have in hindsight, but the published,not self-published, because I was like, becausefor some people, like in general, when I talk andbring in speakers for whatever I'm doing or apart of, if I read best-selling author anywherein the top four lines of their bio, it's a redflag. It's not a positive one, but I think it'sbecause of the ease of self-publishing and theease of doing this. Was there a moat to get intothe public? Like what's that look like to? Yeah,I mean, it's, it's brutal. And, and I'm, I'm proudto tell you, I am not a best-selling author. Ithink, I think I might have in Canada, that's nota high bar, right? So maybe I justexhausted. I could think of a dozen people in Atlanta,Canada who pushed themselves as a some on somelist in Amazon somewhere. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. AndI did too. I was, I think for a day I was, youknow, in the yellow books, you know, if you'rereviewing the book, it is bright yellow. But, butwhat ended up happening is I, I, everything came,I, I met this wonderful individual who had been35 years with Wiley Publishing in, and right, hadbeen and specialized in people like us who werenot authors per se, but wanted to, wanted to one,put out a message that they felt strongly aboutand put it into the world. But secondly, clearlywas an aid to their efforts around credibilityand around building their business, right? So,so no bones about that. And when, when I crossedpaths with him, everything changed. What becamevery clear is getting a publishing deal, brutallydifficult, but you know, you and I can go and wecan hire the services of a publisher on a feefor base, right? So Chris Hadfield doesn't have topay his fact checker. I paid for mine, right?Chris Hadfield didn't pay for his graphic design. Sohe's paid on royalties. I had to pay for mybooks and have an inventory. Right? So, and thenmiraculously, for reasons I still don'tunderstand, and I'm very appreciative of the publisher,after the final product was completed, gave methe holy grail in that enterprise, which is adistribution deal. So they had not been willing todo this on an advance of royalties. I paid for mydearly. Right. But at the end of the process,they said, we'll, we'll do distribution, right?Now distribution in our world, it's lovely. Butquite frankly, again, that was never the purpose.That was never the point. Is it a thrill to walkinto chapters and see your book on the shelf? Sure.Does it really make a difference in the endin wanting to have an impact and to affectworkplaces in the way that I wanted to? I don'tthink it made a damn bit of difference. Right? So,so, so, and then, and then the award, right, Iwon an international award for the book in a certaincategory. The publisher was smart enough to saythis has a chance they entered it on my behalf,and we won the award. So not by selling, but awardwinning is the piece. So I have since then coached,oh God, dozens of people in our sphere who havebeen curious. And my, my, my answer is always thesame is find an editor who knows the business ofbooks. If the thing is, if you shop it to a coupleor three Canadian publishers, you never know.But if not, and it's probably not, be prepared toconsider the probably two times the cost, threetimes the cost of doing it through a publishinghouse, right? It's called hybrid publishingbecause these houses, they are publishers, but they willalso take on authors like me who will pay for theservices, right? Consider that and only after you'veconsidered that, consider self-publication,right? And even there's ways around self-publication todo that in a way that doesn't look self-publishedthat you're selling them out of the trunk of yourcar, right? There's a way of doing that. I hearyou talk, I think that this podcast is our babystep into the same realm of like, our goal isn'tto monetize or grow this as a traditional podcast,business would be your influencers. But tolike, you know, we're, we're wrong 11, not four,the CBC four, we're like, but it's just thatlike we show up and people can understand who we areand a little bit more under the hood before theyengage with us. Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating. I wishthere was more business in books, just as a smalltangential aside, I'm an avid reader. I have beensince I was like six and the fact that like, likeI couldn't write a fiction book with a reasonableexpectation of making an income. It's verysimilar to the music industry. Like right now, like,like, but it's easier music. I mean, I'm goingto have musicians, Colby, you can hit me laterbecause that's his background. But like, Ithink it's way harder to become an Arthur,Arthur, an author and make any kind ofliving. Because at least the music, if you are halfdecent, you could like grind it, you coulddo the gig group. But I just, art in general,it's hard to make a living and probably alwayshas been, you need the patriotism side. But well,Levi, I, I, when I kind of gave it, I took a big break for music, I don't know,10 years ago or so. And one of the, one of thebig moments was like, I drove four and a half hoursfor like $20. And then played for three or sohours. And I was just like, I think I'm going tohave to separate the money and the passion here.I'm going to do this for fun. I'm not going to askfor money. I just want to make sure that I wantto do this. Because yeah, it's like you got tosell merch, you got to sell vinyl, you got to doall the, all the things. Yeah. And now we got tosit through all the AI music and authoring. Soyeah, we figured out, I figured out with two,two co-conspirators that doing corporate gigs,you know, where you're the background music andthere's 300 people having a drink and they'renot listening to you, you know, as a jazz guy,that was, I was able to say that I'm a workingmusician. And you're not wrong. Those corporategigs, I'm telling you, you know it. You know it.Oh yeah. Yeah. You play, you play jazz music. Yeah.Yeah. I'm a double bass player. You, oh really?Yeah. Yeah. So we're in year, I think we're inyear 22 of our trio and I've got a couple ofother projects. Yeah. That doesn't surprise me at all.Okay. So what, what type of jazz are you guysdoing? Pretty straight, when we're doing thosegigs, it's pretty straight ahead stuff, right? Soit's pretty accessible and kind of, kind of stuff.I've got another project with a guitar player andit's just he and I and we, we, we, we don't wantto play with a drummer and we love our drummers,but we just don't want to, we want quiet spaceswhere we can do. Call us the drummer. Hey brother,I'm a drummer too, man. I've got, I've got two kids,but, but we just want to be in spaces wherewe're quite used to not being able to hearourselves because there's 300 people, right?And we need a drummer and we love it and so and soforth. But the reality is that we, we are nowjust a guitar and bass in these quiet settings,private functions and restaurants. Nice. Yeah.Yeah. Good. Nice. Very nice. I'll stop myselffrom going down that route. Well, it's justfunny. Like the, the business of art on its own,without having that corporate influence, it'sa rough go like those passion projects. Yeah.Yeah. I think there was like a big maturity shiftin, uh, and a lot of it came from my fiance where,where like, you know, their family, theirgrinders, their doctors, two to two doctors,and then a naval architect. And, you know,she's a, she's a vet. And, and I was just,when I met her, I was just like, I'm going toplay music for the rest of my life. And thenit just kind of rubbed off on me that I neededto get my stuff straightened out. And then, uh,so I took a break and now I'm coming backto music and I'm enjoying it so much more.Whole different experience, right? Yeah. Yeah. You're a bit more self-sustained,not so desperate and you just said that it's good. People understand this last,but my hope is to a point of financial independence that I canown and operate a restaurant that is effectively a hobby. Oh, look at you.That is the goal. It was like, cause peopleask me often, are you going to open anotherbusiness in the food space? And it's like,yeah, as soon as I can do so and lose moneyhappily every month, that is the minute I'm goingto go do that. And I'm excited about that retirementplan. Yeah. I have my, my work as a, as amusician has given me such an appreciation for the foodand food service industry. I just, you know, Iwas blind like so many of us are to what happens inthose spaces. Levi and I, I now have a wholedifferent appreciation for that world. Hats offto you. It's off to you. Small, small, uh, uh,just thing that you might appreciate. I went,I went to New York by myself two years ago and,uh, went to go to some gigs and stuff. And I wentto small's, uh, jazz bar in New York, like that,the, uh, the O G one. And, uh, I was front row.My foot was almost touching the double base. And Ijust, I just in awe with what they were able to do.Incredible. Incredible. Yeah. These are,some of them are mutants. You know that, right?Oh, they are not of this world. No, no. I'llsend you. I still, I still, I've been, I've been,I have a teacher, right? I've had a teacher forall my life and the music and, and he will findhimself to say, and in this setting, it's in anorchestral. I, I study with a wonderful orchestralbass player because I played in orchestra aswell. And he'll say something like, well, you know,you can't do that. And then he'll catch himself.Uh, actually, no, there probably is a bass playersomewhere who can actually do that thing thatis physically impossible with the human hand,but somebody's figured out some of these peopleare just incredible. Have you checked out, uh,Ulysses, uh, Owen's junior? No, his music.I'll send you a link. He's a guy that I'm kind ofworking with on another project, but, uh, yeah,he's, he's incredible. Incredible. So I'm goingto segue just a little bit here because it'sclosely associated, but when we talk a lot withthese people who are, you know, higherperformers or, you know, from the outside perspective havehit a level of success. Um, but then I hear aboutthe personal interests and, uh, time commitments.Um, and so I would love to know, like when Ihear orchestra bands many, many years in music, um,but also some of the personal professionaldevelopment. It's right now, I would say thatyou probably have more luxury of time, I'mguessing, but at some point you probably had tomake a more intentional plan of, of managingyour time or splitting where your focus was.Um, even when maybe cash was tighter, there was some risk involved.What are your intentions around how you spendyour time? And I'd love to know if you have anytransferable methodologies or advice on that.I think, um, I don't profess to be very, I didall the stuff that we all did when weactually believe that time could be managed and wetried to harness, um, energy priorities andtime. And I'm a disciple of David Allen's work and,and all of that kind of stuff. Um, I didn't profess to be a wizard at all of that,but I was able to juggle. My family was very,very important and, and was able to be attentive tothat. My work required me to be on the road alot. Um, so windshield time, the upside of that isyou're sitting in hotel rooms and I wasn't keen onbeing at the bar in the hotel. I was very keen onpaying attention to other parts of my life,whether it was reading or music or, um, those kinds ofthings. So, so I think, I think I was, andI'm blessed with good health. So quite frankly,I was able to push myself in those highlydemanding years. Um, where I think others may not be soblessed. I was able to, I had a fairly, I'mfairly resilient and was able to work through, um, thedemands of never, never wanting to just be allabout one thing, uh, family, music, uh, community.I was always involved in stuff in the communityand, and, and did a lot of work. But as I learnedfrom an early boss who used to say to me, I getmore shit done than anybody, you know, and I'mfaster than they are too. Now I was never thatgood, but I was reasonably smart and effective.Um, you're right. I'm now at a, at a veryinteresting crossroads. Um, this is, uh, I'm ending my first,six months of working four days a week, um, whichI've been 75% successful in doing, uh, and without,you know, being foolish and doing weekends andevenings, cause I'm paying attention to the otherimportant things. Um, um, I'm, I'm actuallyclosing the shop. You're my, you're one of my last thingsI'll be doing before heading off to visit my sonin Montreal with my wife and then closing the shopfor the first time ever for the summer. Wow. Andthen, and then yesterday I actually in the calendarwent Mondays, I don't work Fridays. I don'twork and I'm trying to see, and I sent a note thismorning at five 30 or something as I was workingaway, uh, starting my day to a bunch of clientsand saying, here are the dates that are availablein the fall. Uh, slim pickings. Uh, yeah, didn't sayit that way, of course. So yeah. So, so I've, I've,I've hit the stage, uh, Levi, where I'm, I'm able tobe, um, increasingly selective in the work that Itake on. So two, two questions. One leads to theother, uh, cause my father-in-law went throughthis as a professional photographer. And when hestarted, you know, needing to like wanting tocut back, you know, he, he didn't start thatthat it was 72. Um, and then, but it was like,there was, he pretty much stopped except for therewere certain things that would come to himthat were not work. He got paid for them, but theywere a delight. Uh, for him, it was, uh, it wasuniversity hockey games. He would do that anywherein the North America and stock her racing. Theycould pay him to be a photographer and he used itas a vehicle to go through the things he enjoyed.So my first question, is there anything that is anopportunity or a type of your work that you'relike, like, I'll never give that up, but alsowhat does retirement or rewirement look like? Likewhat, what do you picture at a done time or just acontinually changing time? So the first questionis what happened last week. Um, I've had, I've hadthree weeks of three gigs each week in, I thinknine, seven or eight cities. So, you know, if I'mclosing the shop for the first summer of my life,you know, a fellow wants to kind of take care ofbusiness before doing that. So, um, and some ofthem, uh, the first thing in answer your question,I brought a colleague to every single one of themthat I could. And, and she is, uh, younger and notas, uh, where I am in her career and would say notfellow yet and would say that she is, uh, learningevery moment that, you know, the craft, uh, she'sa PhD. She doesn't, she doesn't need anything onthe, on that side, but the craft and working that,right. So I, I do very little on my own, if I canif I can pull it off and that means, you know,taking a hit financially to do it. I don't count,right? Because I don't, I don't charge anydifferently. If it's one of us or two of us,then I take the hit. And, and so that's thefirst thing I do. The second thing is I found myself,I was on my own in this, I was sitting with 18 middle managers last weekand I just, I would have paid them to be inthat room for that day. Um, the, the talent,the enthusiasm, the thirst for learning and theactual, um, some would say delusion that at thatstage in their careers, these are young front andmiddle managers in the private public and not forprofit sector. And they all thought they couldsave the world, uh, every single one of them.And I didn't, I didn't want to break their heartsand tell them why, because they're right. They'reright. They can go back to their shops and changethat world, right? In terms of how they lead andmanage and how that work then ripples out intothe community in terms of what they do. So, so you,if, if I can find my way into those rooms andworking with those kinds of folks who have thatkind of enthusiasm for making things better intheir, uh, in their shops and then ultimately intheir communities, uh, I will pay people to do, todo that word. That's my stock car. That's my stockcar. And, and, and I'm, I'm blessed as I'mblessed to be in a profession where I can taper downand I can write very selectively, just little,literally whittle it down to a day or so a week.And I suspect that I will have some friendswho may invite me along on some stuff to have theold guy at the back of the room and give them ahand. So I'll keep doing that for a few years.You mentioned something that, uh, kind ofsprung a new idea in my head. For, for young peoplekind of starting into the professional worldand choosing the path that they go down, um,what changes have you seen and, and what would beyour suggestions for, for maybe how young peopleshould be approaching their, their choicesand kind of that first work experience. And, um,I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.Cause it, it must, it, you know, there, there's,I think with young people, whether they're19 or 22, like what they see online versus,you know, like there was a huge push. If you gointo a middle school right now and ask what kidswant to be, they want to be a YouTuber, um, or aTik TOK or whatever. Um, and that, that must be the,well, that's the first time that's ever happened.Um, so, you know, to the 19 year old, 18 year old,or just a young person in general, like whathave you been seeing and, and kind of what are yoursuggestions for, for certain fields to go into?So, so I'll answer the question, but I think kidsin those, right, Kobe, when you were there,didn't you want to be a rock and roll star?A hundred percent.Of course you did. Right. So we've alwayshad these kind of fame and glory, you know,so is it great that kids are looking at YouTubers and sure, sure. Great. You know,fame and fortune and notoriety. And didn't we allwant to be rock and rollers and all that kind ofstuff? So I think that's fine to the 19 year olds.Um, I, I was in my years with, um, I did a decadeas the managing partner with the RobertsonSurred group, human capital. Um, I did 80% of my time.I was a career transition guy. So if you lost yourjob, you were CEO. I came, I came with your packageand you're a VP or CEO and my job was tohelp you reinvent yourself. So I did 10 years,80% was that word. 20% was as a headhunter. Um,so I've had the pleasure of accompanying peopleas they move through, um, reinvention,sometimes not reinvention, just kind of relocation andtransition. Um, and as a result of that, ended upworking a lot with, you know, university studentsand kids that we did that work in. And I wouldstill cringe. Um, I think it's the third timeI've cringed. Um, I cringe and say, Oh, find yourpassion. No, don't, no, don't do that. Don't do that.Figure out what you're good at. Figure out whatyou're good at. And there's, there's a, there'sa variety of ways of doing that. Both, you know,data informed and just very intuitively to figureout where, what you're good at. And some ofthose things, um, um, polyrhythms may get you to yourprofessional career and they may not, butthere are some things you're good at that probablytranslates into, um, something that is worthexploring professionally and how that might parlayitself into something else. It's hard. It'sreally hard, right? At that, at that stage of life.But I think it's, it's about, it's aboutfiguring out where your gifts are, what you're good at,and then just being open to the world in such away so that you're saying yes more often than no,to validate the things you're good at. Um, I'llgive you an example really close to home. There'sa young man who became an engineer for reasonswe're really still not sure, but he chose to becomean engineer. He was really good with computers.The world was becoming software engineers. He said,too many of those, I'll become a hardwareengineer because this all started when I was nine inbuilding a computer. Um, and, and thehardware engineering has led that young New Brunswickengineer to being, um, in the potato business ofall things, right? With McCain. So, so you don'tknow how these things connect to other things,but he was building computers when he was nine.And so that led him to a field of studythat has him hanging around with a neurologistand economist in the world at the world potatoexpo, not sexy. Um, well, he thinks it is andhe's right. It is very sexy. Um, so, um, figureout your gifts, say yes to lots of things. Put,put your, your, your things to the test. Andif you don't like it, you may not be good at it.And you may want to just kind of veer away fromit if you like it and you tend to be good at it,it's worth exploring and then doing the hard yardsof figuring out how that connects to other things.That's great. That is the, um, yeah, Ithink like just to, and you can validate this,but like the underlying part there that I just want to make sure it said is like,you need to try things. Oh, where some of thepeople, like we, we've had like students andstuff try it with like, we exhaust this, butwe try to do some of those co-op placements orstudents in it. But they haven't tried anythingand like the economics are different. Like youno longer can have a part time or summertimejob to actually help you in any way financially.So there's no one financial incentive at all togo get a summer job from my point of view. Likeyou're, you're barely going to be able to makerent much less put money away for the school year.Um, but still like the value, like I gravitateto the words, the people who at least went and didthe dishwashing or the food service or the retail or they,cause then at least you'll know if you like communicating to people.Yeah. I, uh,there's a long tradition of, you know, parentshelping their kids find jobs they know they'll hate.Right. So yeah. So, you know, that engineer that I'm very intimately familiar with,you know, he washed dishes for a while andhated it, you know, and, and I hated his strong.Wasn't this, what is his preferred gig, right?But yeah, I think, I think, and that's not anautomatic that people, I think we would agreethat there are some individuals who are more closedto trying some stuff early on in the game.And that's a shame. Right. That's a shame.Um, similar vein, but probably I'm lookingat it more from an employer's perspective thanan employee's perspective, but I'd love,like, I'd love you to get a crystal ball. Um,cause we, we, the way we talk to people we workwith is often is like the world changing aroundyou and you should be focusing on the thingsyou need to do every day. And for moments of time,let's like look on the business, let's lookforward. And we're trying to help people withunderstanding where it's going with regards toprocess and systems. And, uh, the way we call itis like you want to be in five years, theemployer of choice in a space you live in.So the employer of choice is a term we useall the time. And that's a lot of little things.Um, but I technology changing, generationalchanges, uh, the immigration changes. Let's,you know, it's hard to track on the currentstate of a trade war, all that stuff, but liketechnology is not going away. Um, I'd love tounderstand like crystal ball wise as an employer,where would you focus if you just don't feellike you're even aware? Um, what are the bigchanges that maybe I'd love anything you're like,I think it's going there and we can argue about it.You know, I think the easy, the easy answer,I'm going to give you the lazy easy answer,but it's a data informed answer. I was, um, I,I shared the stage as the saying goes with this,um, uh, wonderful writer for the Harvard, um,business review and the wall street journal. And,um, she was, she is now, uh, HBRsauthority on all things AI and, and this, you know,she would compel us to think and she's Canadianand she would, um, compel us to try to think of AI,uh, by foreseeing the future of the internet when the internet began.And if we can, if we can try to grasp the absolute,um, all life altering and without getting into the,the ethics of it all in there and, and, and,and all of the implications, I think if you're notin business today, thinking about what AImeans to your business at a process level, um,as a, at a business level and in terms of whatit means for, uh, where your business will evolve,I think you're missing the boat and she wouldmake a much more compelling and informed argumentthan I would, but, but let, you know, let's startthere lazily and say, what part of your enterpriseshould be, could be benefiting from AI at thisjuncture or working with people who are thinkingthat way. So that's the first point, right?I think, I think the second question is, um,you know, it's again, boring. Um, the, the pastis the best predictor of the future that we have.And if we take this last three to five years in terms of what workplaces have done,what the marketplace has done, and we apply that thinking to our own enterprises,uh, I, I think, I think, let's face it,some business owners are really good at crystalball gazing that you've met fellows like I'vemet felt they, it's amazing what they see for theirmarketplace, for their product, for their customer, for the landscape in general,and others aren't so blessed. It's my experiencethat others, you know, their heads in their headsin the business, they're in the weeds, they'redoing their thing, and they may not be thinking,and they need to surround themselves potentiallywith people like you and others who can help themand get out of the day to day enough to be ableto see. It's about just looking at a few patternsand trends that speak to you in your enterprise,right? There's something that's been happening,or it's begun to happen. And if you can start to see it as a pattern or a trend,that, that's, that's all strategy is, man, is justabout trying to get ahead of that. So that's a bitof a lazy answer, but I would, I would lean intoAI, and then I would start to try to understandwhat are the patterns and trends that aretrue in my enterprise in the last three to five,and how will those evolve, and what might theydo, and then surround myself if I'm not good at thatstuff, surround myself with people who I don'twant to call them futurists, but they can thinkbeyond tomorrow. I remember the first time I hearda futurist as a term, I was at a, I was a food guy,and I was at an organic farmers conference. Theybrought in a futurist, his job was just to predictthe future based on where things are going. Andit was an organic farming conference, and he got upand he effectively presented to the room that inthe future, and he was pointing decades, and it'salready coming, organic food in some categories,but a lot of produce will be less expensive thannon-organic. And that was the premise, and it waslike everybody got really kind of tense, but he'slike, like, like there are machines today thatwill weed a field less effectively, or less costlythan spraying with less risk, and today they'reexpensive, and tomorrow they'll be less expensive.And so I can, and he just, he did a really goodjob painting a picture, he's like, because right noweverybody's like, how do we get people to pay thecost necessary to afford organic tomatoes, or lettuce,or greens? It's like technology's already in placeand growing, it will be less costly to do organicin 10 or 15 years. And that's when I, like eversince then, I was like in every category banana,is like, right, who's just spending time thinkingabout the future, and how do we bridge that gap?Yeah, that's funny, I was having a conversationwith an entrepreneur friend of mine, and he was,he's a developer, and he was saying that he built,his team built in four days, and for about $15,000,which not even two years ago would have been$200,000, and 12 developers working for six months.And like he said that he would have never predicted that was possible.But somebody probably could. So I love the ideaof like keeping connected to like looking forward,or surrounding yourself with people who do.Yeah, finding who they are, or reading who they are,or tuning in to who they are, right? I think, youknow, this is antiquated, you know, are you workingin the business or on the business? And if, Ithink there's got to be a part of you that's doingthis work, right? That is thinking about thefuture. Yeah, there's another guy that I spoke to thatWarren Rustand. He'll be on the podcast at somestage, if I can nail him down. But he was speakingto me about when he was working with the president,he was saying that they would set out this kind ofwhite space time to work on the business two hoursa day, no matter what. And if you're sitting in achair in silence for two hours, then that'sfine. If you want to go talk to a consultant about acertain thing, that's fine. But like blockingthat time that's non-negotiable is interesting.It's interesting. Because otherwise, you justfind busy work. Oh, yeah. Yeah, of course. Well,and that needs doing, right? Yeah. So, yeah. Cash flow is also real.I had a question about, so my background is innutrition. And what I noticed while working withclients is that when I got down to the abilityto change your patterns and change the way you dothings, it was so rooted in deep psychology thatI lost interest in nutrition consulting because Istarted to realize this is a psychology issue,not a nutrition issue. And obviously, there is a tonof psychology in the work that you do. And whatrole has that played over the years for you? Andlike have you, I mean, I assume you've dovepretty deep into why people are the way they are. Andif somebody wants to eat, like I talked toone client that their favorite meal ever wascraft dinner with hot dogs. And they didn'tdrink water. And if I really trace that back,there is a deep emotional connection to thatthing that I'm not qualified to go down. And I'mstarting to see that with everything. It's likewith all the work that we do, you know, there mightbe a manager that's been at a place for 22 years.And the reason they do things, maybe they feel asense of control in this environment, but zerocontrol at home. And therefore, that change isvirtually seemingly impossible. It's notreally a question. It's more of a question.No, but there's a very good question. And thequestion that I've heard you say is that I'llreframe for the purposes of my answer is theextent to which that we should be attentive toconcerned by and willing to tackle thepsychology of it all. And my associate, Dr. Tammy Carroll,who's an organizational psychologist, not aclinical psychologist, but she would have usthink about this from the point of view of isthere really value and this comes out in thecoaching. I do I do fair amount of coaching withleaders and managers increasingly as I'm tryingto train less coach more she's certified coachas well. Are we really well served by asking why?So to the manager who exhibits that that behavior, are we capable schooled,truly able to ask the question why of thebehavior? And you know, it sounds called be like you said,I can see there's a why reason there. But I'mjust you know, the mechanics of trying to delveinto that, right? It's not open that box. Yeah,right. Right. So the shift, the shift, and again,from a coaching point of view from anorganizational coaching point of view with individuals,is better efforts in focusing on the what andthe how and the when in terms of habit change.And clearly, people were based on incentives,right? I mean, behavioral economists will remindus that everybody does something for a reason,you're getting a payoff in your business, boy,all food is comfort food, right? So there's there'sbut ultimately, it's about incentives and pay off.So I, I, I am fascinated by that. Me too. Butdon't allow myself, in spite of the, you know,isn't that interesting? And yeah, can I put on awhite jacket that I'm not qualified to? Yeah. Andship that to look, the work is what are the habitsand the behaviors that will, if there's a movementtowards those habits and behaviors, in my casewith leaders and managers, there were for whichthey would get a payoff of some kind, eitherin the team performing better in the or in theorganization being more profitable, in theirderiving greater satisfaction in their reductionof their angst and stress, because they can't getColby to move in the direction they need to move.And you know, they're there. So, so the longwinded answer to saying, yeah, fascinated by thepsychology of it all, have come to learn notqualified, or quite frankly, that's not the workis the understanding around it. And thenyou're right. In, in a, in a, in approachingbehavioral change, and the adoption of habits andbehaviors in my sphere with leaders and managers,you're up against some pretty deep rooted stuff.There's no question about that. And yet you have,as I have, you've seen people, in spite of thosedeep rooted reasons why the manager behaves thisway, rather than that, they make the shift,right, or, or they'll move to some extent towardsbehaving and adopting habits that put them in abetter place that are more engaging with theirpeople that are more profitable. So, so Ithink, fascinated by it, try not to go there. Yeah.Yeah, no, I agree. And the one of the things,because we're part of peer groups and do a lotof like, you know, push it pushing ourselvesto being okay with rocking our perception of theworld on a regular basis, is a muscle you Ifeel that you have to, to work and, and I'm just sookay with everything coming crashing down of my,my perception, I'm almost excited by it. But, youknow, in, you know, help helping people along inthat direction is something that I've been curiousabout without, without stepping too far. It'slike, how do we, how do we have an, build anenvironment where it's okay that, you know, ourbeliefs can change, our core beliefs can changeabout ourselves. But I like the thoughts aroundlike controlling ourselves on like, not all thethings that are curious that we want to go afterare part of the work. Yeah. And I say this, becausethe tool I use, I put an acronym on the board,I do at the beginning of all my facilitation,because I use it on them as much as myself. AndI say this at the risk that I stole it from you,but it's the weight and acronym W A I T. It iswhy am I talking? And I have it in writing allthe time now. It's on the whiteboard in the roomwhere it's on a piece of paper here. And it's like,okay, why am I asking this question? Or why am Ianswering this thing? Because I'll kill silenceall day long. I'm, I'm game to just keep anenergy going. But it's like, why am I talking? Why am Italking? And I think that's, that's where I wasgetting is like, yeah, not all things are worthgoing down. If it's not, you can't just serve me.That's not helpful. And just the last podcast weshot with Justinus, he's the president ofour, my EO chapter. And he was saying that like,his best advice around this is the continuation of working on yourselfand focusing on that, like, how can I bebetter in this environment? And if, you know,just keep building that up. And I think that'sgreat. I'm just more curious if there's, you know,light ways of approaching, you know, control myself. Yeah.Yeah.Pierre, is there anything you are curiousabout or want to ask us or positioned slightlydifferently? Is there anything that you wish we had asked you?Well, I am fascinated by the nature of the work. And I am always curious. I mean,it's kind of a continuation of what we just saidis, you know, you're bringing about some importantchange with your clients. And I'm curious what the resistance is that you face,you know, recognizing that they have asked youto be there. And yet, I'm assuming you're going totell me that you face some resistance. I'd becurious to hear what that's like. And what hasworked at chipping away or overcoming theresistance? Yeah. I mean, there's a bunch ofanswers to that. I think that there's like, wealmost always work with the senior, the owner,the founder of the top in our company. And,but that's not true. I mean, we were works fromgovernment and nonprofit and NGO. I think forus is the resistance and the culture and thepersonalities at the top is common. I think we'vekind of covered some of that and like, you know,talk through. But in the organization, I thinkthe biggest thing I'm coming up against now ispeople not understanding that there's not quickfixes. They're like, I'll adopt AI, or I'll putin this new process, or I'll fix our processesor because we're, I often like to like, we doconsulting only because we kind of get to figureout what you should do, and which we need to knowlike what your goals are and what yourconstraints, all that stuff. But really, where I think weflourish is we help them do the homework. Istopped being a pure consultant. We started thiscompany eventually merged with Ironhouse because Iwanted, because I just saw people getting reportsand recommendations they loved, but didn't havethe competency or capacity to actually implement.So helping people do the homework is where I getour joy. But doing the homework, and we just hada project, we were a year with them. And like allof stuff was every engagement and deliverable was,they liked it and it was great. And they feltsome change happening, but the actual businessresults, and it's like, these are systemic, largecultural and business changes. Like the immediatereduction of time or the show up on the balance sheet change, likeshort-term results would be a very differenttactic for some of the changes we're seeing.Even like we're doing a governmentproject, I won't even mention the government, butwe're doing like workflow mapping and processimprovement. And like where are they? Becauseit's siloed and it's a siloed mindset and it'svery much fiefdoms between departments. And it'snot angry. There's no aggression there. It'sjust so default. And we've just finished our secondproject of a sizable size and they haven'tactually gotten a direct improvement yet,except for more clarity, which I think is animprovement. But when you go three levels ofexecutive up, like I can't point to money saved, I can't point to change of roles,but we'll get there. But a lot of these thingsare not soon. And then on the AI piece, a lot ofpeople are like, I want to AMI business and wecan do some immediate things like give peoplepersonal assistant type support and improve theproductivity of the average person, but meaningfulAI operationalize in process. I don't know, 90%of the time we've been brought in or we're doingan assessment or even a sales conversation,we're like, oh, we have to start with how youstore your information. Like we're going to be awhole project of putting in a CRM or organizingor tagging or like we spent three months withone organization instilling naming conventionsbecause all meaningful use in their space ofAI is going to need that framework. And thoseinvestments of those central sources of truthand well in main managed information are projectsthat are going to cost with zero improvement.And often they actually make all of your processeslonger to do because you're now asking people toadd that little bit of, you can automate a lot,but it might actually make you lesseffective for the longer term benefit of improvement.And I just, I don't see that story being toldonline. And so, or anybody, so they come to usand we kind of have to deliver the likemarathon, not sprint. Do you understand? Like, do we needshort term goals to keep people motivated andlet's have that conversation. And that, thatin itself would cause resistance because it'snot as sexy as saying, let's install AI tomorrowover the next six weeks. And like, it's just,you know, it makes, and until they start to feellike how we're working with people, it is atougher beginning. And I think we've, you know,we've been told this kind of before is like theway that we do any sort of consulting has been likestarting with a deep perspective wherethey've gotten to up into this point and being ascollaborative as possible and not speaking atpeople and, and just probing with a lot of, ofgood questions and, you know, they're the expertin their business and we fully believe that. And,you know, we're just there to guide andhelp execute. On the whiteboard, I have weightand I have Levi is never going to be the expertin your business. And thirdly, life's not fair.And the number of times I get to point back at those things.Yeah.Wisdom. I'm curious. You say you work primarilyat the top of the house. Is it safe to assume thatthere are some clients within with whom you workthat whilst the top of the house is where you work,it is lower down in the organization. Don'tmean to get hierarchical, but you know what I mean.It is other places in the organization that aregoing to be doing the hard work around some ofthese longer winded process changes thatyou're describing. And my question is, is there adifference when you have people who are particularlygifted in that space, right, that can roll up theirsleeves and have the stick to it and have thepatience that's required to do this, whereasother clients, you may not have the benefitof those same, that same caliber of folks.I mean, this is a sweeping generalization,but I would say more often than I ever expected,we're not getting frontline resistance and we're not getting middle resistance.Okay.We're getting, by the time we've come in, I would say most of the timeis the demand has been there for change longenough. And often, sometimes the leader of the topof the house isn't necessarily resistant.It's just like the how and the, like the, I want,I want this, but like the tactics to getthere are complex. And so there's a lot of the,the confusion. And so the slowness of likestakeholder engagements and meaningful interviewsand process mapping and the amount of timeswe've visualized workflows through an organizationand like hours and hours and hours ofinterviews and then in group and then they see thevisualization and we pretty much start again.Because they've never actually visualized howit goes through organizations and like throughroles, through people, through systems. And it'slike, is this, because like this has all kinds oflike, let's just change this, they should do this,but we're two months getting into that point.And so we start to build resistance at that frontbecause they're gunning for change. And we'rejust like, well, don't, don't rush change. Causerushed change will not only be unsuccessful, butit makes the next one that much more likely to fail.Do you have a workshop on patience?It's tied into our main, like we have a cultural foundations workshop we call.How bad it is, man.And part of it is like saying it, likearticulating and being really clear about what we're expectingand how long it takes. And it's like thatclarity piece. And so the resistance I'm getting in oneproject and thinking of is that by all objectivemeasures, it's successful, but it's like they'rechomping at the bit and they're like, I can tellthat they're just going to go rogue and just goquickly do something. It's like, great. Well,that is not long-term, but, but then also yourespect that some people have a cashflowconcern and like, we need to shift to like, if you'reinvesting to something that'll help you in fiveyears, well, five years isn't guaranteed to whatprivate sector small business. So I think that'swhere like we get to comment. My favourite commentis like, well, you worked with us, not at us.But it also means that we have to be like the mostadaptable people in the room. So if we learnsomething about them, about their business,or about like the processes, we need to be ableto go in and say, okay, let's change the scope.Or like, you should stop working with us andyou should go do this now, because that's the longterm. And that causes havoc with our poor managerwho we have asked to uphold our like margin goalsand, you know, all those professional things weneed to do so that we don't just get caught upin having fun. What are the best projects foryou guys? What are the ones you just relish in? Andwhen those come in the door, that's joyous.Well, mine, and I'll pass it to you, Colby,see if it's different. Like we've talked aroundlike our avatars and we do a lot of that stuffon ourselves, but the one I really like is themature traditional business, been in business fordecades likely, who is coming up on a transition.And they're going to sell or they're going to passto another generation, or they're going toemployees are going to take lead. And it's not ready.And often we look at it as like the real thereality is, is that business is more likely to closeand just nothing fill the void thansuccessfully transition. And that, that because that is thedriver that gets the most unself-aware andobstinate top of house to start thinking differently.Because it's their retirement, it's their succession, or it's their legacythat we can start thinking about and building.And I would say the most common problem we solveacross every project we've ever done is makingan organization less dependent on key individuals.And in that one, it's like the value is somuch greater than, you know, more effectivenessor what have you. So those are the ones that driveme. And we actually coined it one time and it gotthe chills moment was they, we helped thebusinesses of yesterday thrive tomorrow. Like that, like thatpass off from one from, from past to future,because I want to live in a place with more independentbusiness and we're going to have tens ofthousands close just from age alone in the next few years.And I think it's a worthwhile effort. Colby.We worked on that together. So I would, I know.I would say the same. And then also like whenwe first started, we were like a small marketingand content firm when we first started. Andwe still get those contracts because we havethose relationships. And for me, because Istruggled in, in school with like ADD and allthat kind of stuff, and I just wanted to playmusic and be social and all that stuff. We'repretty deeply involved in the department ofeducation. And the fact that I can have a handin any sort of impact in that regard and seethe change and be a part of it doing, you know,whatever it is, communication work, facilitation,being at those, like I would have never predictedin a million years that I would be asked togo to those rooms. And that's pretty specialfor me personally. Great work.Yeah, it's fun. We are, our big thing now isthat because we're, we're, we're pretty complex andbroad, like you'll notice we didn't mention anindustry. We didn't mention a region. We didn'tmention it. So focus on focus is kind of oureffort this year on the strategic front becausewe get referral work and we're excited by allthis different things. And the same problem whena manufacturing company at the size, you know,under 200 employees, the same problem we're solvingwith the same software and best practices isthe same thing in a First Nations community, in agovernment, in a retailer. Like it's, it'sreally pretty apples to apples when you get under thehood for the most part. And I went through theEO accelerator program for just under two years.And after I went through that, we, we, it wasthe scaling up book of Vern Harnish scaling up.It's like a EOS or, you know, metronomics,that kind of stuff. And after I went through that,like it really hammered home that everybody's gotthe same problems. And then I started to get lessfixated on industry specific work. And atfirst it was a big confidence issue of like,I don't know anything about this. Like we,like I can't contribute and it's just not true.So yeah, that's kind of exciting, but alsoconfusing when it comes to like how we push out,like when we're getting out of the region andtrying to have people understand our business,it does feel a little bit too broad. Butwe're hoping that you're doing good work and goodrelationships that that will, you know, everythingtakes forever. So patience back to our other top.We'll be a 20 year overnight success. Yeah.Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just curious becauseit's the conversation. How much, how much of yourwork are you in person and how much of your workare you working? Our goal, and I think we'repretty close is 80 20, 80 virtual 20 in person.We will by default plan to do at least the beginning and end in person.And only if it's a uniquely, the culture willembrace virtual meaningful conversation. Will wenot force ourselves into the room, but for alot, like we're just like, we know that we won't besuccessful if we don't get in a room with them.But if we go in the beginning, we can really doa good job of, cause our whole team's virtual.We have people, Ontario Halifax, New Brunswick.And we, we've built that cultureintentionally. And I think we're probably doing a better jobof that than anybody I know, but we can't pushresults into an organization that hasn't adoptedthat. And we do the onsite training. We buildtheir hand guides, we build their leg, and wego into the room and I, I'm a big believer inthe outside change. So I want like even our top ofhouse, they're sitting with the people and sonot, they're not pushing change. I'm pushing change.And they're that all that's really hard to dounless you're in a room. That's probably somepsychological stuff that is just in the setting,but we're working with more and more organizationsthat they don't actually get in the roomthemselves. And so that changes the game as well.How do you know what, what are the early signsthat this will be a group that will work wellvirtually in spite of what they said or didn'tsay? Oh, I would say we probably know what areduring the sales engagements. Oh, is thatright? Just what the discovery calls look like. Andif not, it comes up and it's specificallytalked about in our kickoff, which has a few moretypically team members, but like the way thatthey communicate, the way that they're familiarwith the tool, we use all the tools. So we'll gointo whatever one they're most familiar with. Andlike if they're not like using reactions and,you know, changing their name and like, like theyhave to have almost an advanced levelunderstanding. Okay. And then, but we also plan, like we'll tellthem, it was like, we, we, we, we know that we aregoing to come on set. And then they, they opt out.We don't opt into it. They opt out of it.Right. It's nice. It's all, it's also nice to feel,feel a business or an organization orwhatever. Like when you go in, it's totally different.Like you might have a perception of after 10meetings of meeting online and you go thereand it's completely different group of people.Yeah. Yeah. We would rarely start a project onsite. Like we do an initial like discoveryand cause that way we just don't waste any time.We know who to talk to and what to see. And,um, we don't want to waste any, because usually ifwe're working with the top of the house,everybody's time is scarce. And so we don't want to be therunning through a checklist. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.I'm hearing that a lot. The, uh, I, I need to startthis in person and then we can move fromthere. Right. We would maybe very little in person,but there needs to be some initial work done.Well, it depends on what we're doing. Like it'slike, these are not like pricing aside, theseare not small engagements. Like we're talking aboutsystemic things like it's, we do a websiteprojects like some of the, because we've gotthe team and tools and it's a big part of allcompanies these days is we build smarter websitesas one of our service sets. And I feelpretty confident we can run that website with thatproject without necessarily on purpose on ina person, unless it's part of a much larger,broader, like we were working with one companyand like they, they need a website, but they alsowant that to include like sales process andCRM and booking tools. And, uh, I was like, oh,then we need to like start from scratch. Yeah.The website's just a tiny capstone piece. Yeah.Um, so I feel like I've covered all the selfish questions I have. Um,I really enjoyed the conversation. I thinkI mentioned at the beginning, like I met you21, Inc. I think it was. Yes. In Nova Scotia. No, like 2013. In John andNova Scotia. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I rememberthat. Yeah. And then, uh, and I had to leave earlyand so did you. And so we got an extendedperiod of time on a boat. That's right. And, uh, eversince then, it's just been fun to find thedifferent, uh, cross paths. And this is another oneand they've always had a chance or mostoften they've had a chance. Like there's been,um, you know, some work talk, but there'sbeen time for some more meaningful catch up. And,and, uh, I just think that's kind of fun. Uh,I have no idea what the next time is though.Uh, so it'll be fun to, to figure that out. Any closing thoughts, uh, Colby?No, I mean this, this, uh, if anything, like Iwant to figure out a way to see you more now. And,uh, I'd love to get you into to, he's offfor the summer to, uh, I'd love to get you intospeak with some of the EO groups that I work with.And, um, I think that that would be a lot of fun.And, uh, yeah, is your book, uh, I'm about to drive eight hours. Uh, is your boy.Yeah. He, he, he actually, I've never actually read the physical copybecause why would you read it when you can listen?And you narrate it. Beautiful.The only thing I might, I might comment,there's a new edition of the narration coming out thatfixes some of the stuff that Levi had to endure.So I'm, I'm, I'm on there that you might want todo it right away. Um, there's been a, there'sbeen eight hours of driving in the next two days. Soyeah. Yeah. I'm, uh, yeah. So I'll take a, I'lltake a dive into the moment. Should I, should I wait?Uh, it's, it's, it's not, it's not important.Like I didn't re-narrate the book or anything,right? So it's just, it's just a few technical cleanups. You probably won't,in the car, you might not even notice thedifference. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yep. Very good.Yeah. Now I really appreciate, um, all theopenness and, and, uh, yeah, that was, that was really,really fun. Really fun. Cool. Any final thoughts,Pierre? Uh, other than, other than, uh, these arethe kinds of exchanges I will hope to carry onwith. Right. And, um, I'm, uh, it's amazing whenyou get to this, uh, juncture when you have to,you kind of have to separate, you know, uh, do Iwant to hang out with these people? Do I want todo this kind of work? Do I want to talk to thesefolks again? It's amazing how easy it gets. Ithought that would be hard at first. No, not atall, man. Not at all. No, no. Hang out withyou guys anytime. Right. Some of the other work,some of the other work less so, but anyway, yeah,it's been delayed. Well, we won't be shy. Who knows?Please don't. All right. Well, let's call this an end. I'm really excited about thenext conversation, whatever it may be. Thank you.Thank you. This episode of Built to Last is broughtto you by Ironhouse Pro. You're a behind thescenes partner in building organizations designed tothrive. We specialize in solving the bigchallenges, the small annoyances and everything inbetween. So while you're out there dreamingbig, we're here making sure your systems processesand people are ready for tomorrow. IronhousePro driven to create lasting organizations.Learn more at IronhousePro.com