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The Grief Journey By Mayrim
When I launched Relief from Grief in 2022, I thought it would be a short-term project. But the feedback was overwhelming:
•Grievers found inspiration and comfort.
•Listeners who hadn’t experienced loss gained meaningful insights into grief.
•Professionals shared how valuable the podcast was for their clients.
I realized this podcast was meeting a deep, ongoing need — and I was determined to continue serving that need.
I’m honored to partner with Mayrim, an organization dedicated to supporting families who have lost a child. Mayrim is the perfect partner because its founders and members understand the pain of loss firsthand. It’s my hope that each guest shares encouragement and understanding, helping listeners feel less alone. Together, we can find hope and comfort — one moment at a time.
The Grief Journey By Mayrim
Esther Goldstein, LCSW: Human First, Therapist Second
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Esther Goldstein radiates empathy. Esther’s childhood experiences with grief shaped the path her life took, and now as a highly sought-after therapist, her primary desire is to help her clients navigate their grief.
Esther and I discuss the importance of connecting with clients on a personal level. Being a therapist isn't only about knowing the clinical facts and what the research says; it's about making genuine connections and respecting each other's experiences and personalities.
Esther talks about transparency—being open about what you're experiencing - even with your children. It's okay to tell your children, "I'm a bit anxious about something, but I will work through it. You don’t have to worry."
Speaking of transparency… come listen to Esther share her own experiences in taking a client role instead of a therapist role when she realized she would benefit from a therapist's help.
YouTube: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsK24OSmIYG_XWzeplhfmb8LJcWKphITh&si=untn3fmHLLaEEFNm
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/relief-from-grief-by-mayrim/id1788349916
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3AvWNp0DrHqE5AVYJHooiK?si=ufpIObuGRumS5uFXmvrpgA
Questions or feedback? Email me at: podcast@mayrim.org
Introduction to Relief From Grief Podcast
Speaker 1Welcome to the Relief from Grief podcast, hosted by Mrs Miriam Rebiet and brought to you by Mayrim. Mayrim is an organization dedicated to supporting families who have experienced the loss of a child. It was founded by Iloy Nishmat's, nechama Liba and Miriam Holman. Despite her illness, miriam devoted herself to addressing the needs of parents and siblings grappling with the immense pain of losing a child. She felt this loss deeply, having experienced it firsthand when her older sister, nechama Liba, passed away. Mehrim continues to uplift and expand on the work Miriam began, a mission carried forward by her parents with great dedication. If you have any questions or comments for the speaker, or if you'd like to suggest a guest for the podcast, please email us at relieffromgrief at mayrimorg.
Speaker 2Hi everybody, Thank you so much for joining me here today on the Relief From Grief podcast. Today is very exciting because today Mrs Esther Goldstein is joining us. Mrs Esther Goldstein, she's a therapist who does lots of group therapy in the five towns and she does a lot of group therapy for Mayrim and I'm so happy to have you on. So thank you so much.
Meeting Esther Goldstein: Anxiety and Trauma Therapist
Speaker 3Yeah, I'm really glad to be here, mariam. I know that when Glenn reached out to me right the founder of Mayrim reached out and said that he wanted to start a podcast, I was really touched because so many times like, yeah, I've been at the Chabaton and I know that they run these weekends or groups. I know I ran a group one night for bereaved moms and we were doing like a mask event for the inside and outside of how mothers were feeling about loss and almost like the masks with like Esther and Purim. But what I found is that when it comes to grief, there could never be enough support. There can never be enough conversation. Sometimes just hearing someone talk about an experience or an emotion or an insight can really lend well. So I'm just really glad and grateful that Miriam is creating another kind of roadway of support for those who are navigating grief and loss. Thank you for having me on here today.
Speaker 2Thank you. Yeah, you should know. It's very interesting because, even though I only recently started doing this podcast for Miriam, I was doing it in the past, for I think it's been over two years doing this podcast for Mayhem. I was doing it in the past, for I think it's been over two years and the feedback that I get always like amazes me that there's just that one thing that someone just had to hear and like changes their whole day, their whole week, their whole perspective, their whole life and, like you said, I guess like there really can never be too much in three. Yeah, you as a professional, you could definitely share with us lots of professional insights, but why don't we start off a little bit with your own personal story?
Speaker 3Everyone likes diving into the personal meat, huh, okay. So basically maybe I'll just share a little bit about who I am as a professional. Then I'll talk a little bit about like grief as a person. So just to introduce myself, my name is Esther Goldstein. I'm an anxiety and trauma therapist.
Personal Grief Journey: Losing an Uncle
Speaker 3In the five towns we have a group practice that specializes in healing anxiety and trauma and like our primary goal is really to help people have less symptoms. So often there could be like grief loss, abandonment, neglect, and what I've been very protective over is like helping people feel not pathologized by their symptoms, so like we're not judging or giving people as much a diagnosis, as much as we're looking at, okay, how do we help people heal? I did my master's and then I did a post-grad in Israel at Hebrew U, when I was like helping people navigating like addiction and struggling with self-harm or very intense anxiety or panic, and I wanted to look at like what allows some people to heal or to hold sobriety from drug addiction or forms of numbing or coping and how come some other people kept relapsing or going back to unhealthy behaviors or relationships and a lot of it landed on trauma. Why am I sharing all of this? Because in my years of being a therapist so most people know is that anyway. Since then I've come back to America, created a group practice. I have a trauma training program as well for therapists around the world that I train. I'm a somatic therapist, ifs and EMDR. I actually have a book that's coming out with the new Harbinger.
Speaker 3But I guess, as I reflect on all of this, like most therapists are wounded healers or have some kind of passion for coming into this field, usually because we are looking for a sense of meaning or to give back or to find our own level of healing or wholeness in ourselves, and then when we do the work to become more wholesome, we kind of become like a vessel of healing for other people. So I think that I found like, over the years, part of my motivation or inspiration was obviously like wanting to navigate understanding my own anxiety or discomfort in my body. That was anxiety I was holding, discomfort in my body, that was anxiety I was holding, and a lot of it was related to unspoken grief in my family history. And so it's interesting, miriam, when, as we were talking, you said could you talk about this Like we were talking, I said I could talk about it as a professional and invisible grief, or disenfranchised grief, or grief of, obviously, death and loss, because grief really is part and parcel of human experience, where we are always like losing things and things are shifting, but it's very unique when it comes to death, right, the finality of like a living experience.
Speaker 3When you said to me, share your personal story, I was taken aback because usually, like at retreats or obviously as therapists, like you really don't share much. The goal is really to hold space for a client's experience and we share just as much as maybe could be helpful, but we usually are on the side of not sharing. So I'm actually curious. I'm happy to share, but I'm curious, like what was it that made you ask, like, can you share about grief in your life? Like what were you thinking or what are you hoping for the audience to hear?
Speaker 2So too clinical is boring. Yeah, people connect much more to other people's personal experiences. Yeah, so you know, and asking you to come on besides that, you know, glenn Holman told me you know have to ask you to come on and besides that, I'm sure that you have so much to share.
Speaker 3From a therapist perspective, there's so much to be gained from a therapist that we also get to connect to her human side and her human losses. Yeah, okay, I do think that, first of all, thanks for sharing that I know for myself, like I personally connect most with people who are like human first and professional second. Right, I think it takes like a fine line of like knowing how much to share or when to share, but I do think like the lived experience of humanity is really what connects us together.
Speaker 2So, very briefly, you just made me think of something. Yeah, so everything is something just interesting. You know I wrote we didn't even talk about my story, but obviously I have my whole you know own brief story and I wrote an article about it a few years ago. It was in the Mishpacha and I got I got a lot of feedback on it and a lot of comments, like I remember one person especially saying like wow, you really beard your soul over there. And it was funny to me because I thought to myself to you, it does, it does seem like that, but really I didn't like there's so much that I didn't share that I don't need the whole world to. You know, at least at that point I didn't need to make that public. So when you said, what did?
Speaker 3you say before that it's a fine line of how much we share right or how much we hold.
Speaker 2Right.
Speaker 3Right. Also, some people are so used to keeping things in that, like sharing two percent could feel like a lot for someone else, or it could feel like just the right amount for someone, and it's really a matter of knowing what feels right for us to share, because whenever we share right, there's always other people's stories, we're always kicking up against other people's stories. So to me it's like honoring my family, honoring everybody's emotional realities of how they process grief and loss. So I think, just like finding a line to be respectful while also giving voice and experience is really important.
Speaker 2So most people always tell me that when I interviewed him, he goes you got out of me more than anyone else ever gets out of me. You just didn't let up. So if I start overstepping over here. You let me know didn't let up.
Speaker 3So if I start overstepping over here, you let me know. Yeah, Thank you. Thank you for saying that. So I think that what happened was when I was younger. I had my mom is one girl, she comes from a family of eight, seven brothers and when I was very young and when I was very young, one of my uncles passed away. And it wasn't about the, I think it was the way that he, the way that the family dealt with the loss at that point in time. He was the youngest of the family. Everyone else was married and out, so he was like the one uncle that was always home.
Speaker 3So, whenever we went, all of us like all of the siblings with their kids came to my grandparents' house and it was like joyous. They lived in Borough Parks. It was very festive. I used to go with my father actually um to Tish Friday night when I was very, very little. We used to be very close to the Baba Rabba, rav Shalima, halvah, shalom, so um. But I remember like really feeling festive and joyous.
Finding the Right Therapist for Healing
Speaker 3So when my uncle died, I think the way that the family dealt with it or wanted to deal with it was really harder on the children than I think that they might have realized. And even as I talk about it now, it brings up a lot of emotions for me, like a lot of sadness. But basically he got injured and then he was in the hospital for two weeks and in those two weeks we were all like davening and saying to him and the messaging that I kept getting and my siblings and relatives and cousins kept getting is it's getting better. Wow, I'm getting so emotional talking about this right now, but and then when he um, one of the adults in the family said like he's all better now, and I remember being so excited because I was writing him cards, um, and I also could tell like the sadness from my parents and my grandparents and my aunts and uncles, like there was just like a heaviness. It was the night of Hanukkah where we were all supposed to go out to get like Hanukkah presents and we heard like he's not okay, um, and so I remember the confusion as a kid of coming home and then saying, okay, where is he? And then being told, oh, he's in, like the best place ever, and I said, okay, where is he? I can't wait to see him. How was it? Was the hospital, um? And then, um, being told, oh, like, he's with, like malachim, with angels and shemayim, and I don't know if it was so much like the words of like the hope of like he's all better, and then being told like, oh, actually he's like in heaven with angels, with malachim, or if it was more of the lack of conversation during or after, but it was almost like ever since then, like my grandparents' house became like a sad place to be. It's obviously since then shifted a lot.
Speaker 3I'll bring you back to when I was younger. It was very sad, it was very empty, there wasn't conversation around it, it was like let's try to be joyous, but there was a lot of pain and sadness in everyone's eyes. There wasn't really conversation around what does it mean when somebody dies? What does it mean when the youngest in a family dies? What is death? How do we grieve? Do we talk about the person who died? And so it's interesting because I've been connected to Sarah Rivka Cohn from Lynx a lot and she talks about like there's a book actually they wrote and I added a segment at the end like a guide for parents on talking about like loss and death for children.
Speaker 3And I love how she talks about like don't use code words, right, like don't use fluffy words, like use the word like dying or nifter or no longer here, because or else it's very confusing. And so I think that like one of the things that that happened is that there was like an avoidance of dealing with emotions and it was kind of like let's just sugarcoat and move on. But we can't just sugarcoat and move on. This is a broken heart. This is pain that impacted everyone in the family for many different reasons, and I was a kid back then, right, so for me I had. I had to process much later on like I thought maybe if I daubed more, if I prayed more, I could have helped him heal.
Speaker 3I think there was like confusion and it's interesting because I'll just share. Like as a therapist, I didn't remember the impact of this so much. I think I more was like a very sensitive kid. I always wanted to caretake for people. At that point I think I shared this like I was just. I was always a very happy kid, but I kind of took on that role even more of just being like I have dimples everyone would call me dimples or smiley or sunshine. So I kind of took on the role to try to make everyone happy. But when you're trying to make everyone happy, when there's grief like you're not really, it's not always going to work right. It's not just like making them happy and singing a song. There's like a deep pain. So I think I shared with you like it was only once I had my child.
Speaker 3We know this about grief that anniversaries or milestones in our life often can kick up grief and can kick up pain. And I see this in my practice with people who are survivors of trauma or a lack of emotional connection or don't know how to deal with conflict. Anything that can trigger a feeling that you did or didn't have can wake something up, and usually it's an invitation for healing, right, but it can feel uncomfortable. So it only took once I had my own child, who was around the same age that I was when I lost my uncle that a lot of my grief right, it's kind of called delayed grief A lot of my grief almost started kicking up and it was so foreign to me. So I knew all of this because I was treating therapists for quite treating clients and therapists and training people.
Speaker 3For quite some time I'd done a lot of my own healing work in terms of some of my own anxiety. I used to have really bad belly aches. I used to carry a lot of my anxiety in my belly and have somatic symptoms and it was fascinating to me and also like it threw me a little like hey, how come I'm suddenly feeling like uncomfortable? Why am I suddenly teary eyed? What's going on for me? And then, as I obviously started putting the pieces together, I started processing like the loss of my uncle and the lack of conversation. I was always outspoken, I was always researching, I was always speaking about things and everyone was like shh, just be a lady, just be quiet, just be like you know and I'm like no, we have to talk about our feelings and our anger and our happiness and our sadness. So I will tell you. I just have to say something positive though I do want to say my grandparents have done a lot of healing work. They are a lot more vocal about their experiences, my aunts and uncles.
Speaker 3There's a lot of like health and healing in the family. My immediate family, I will say, is pretty emotionally like awake, like we've all become, like I think my parents did something right in this arena where, over the years, like as we've all evolved and as I came into the therapy field and I kind of share everything that I know about trauma and anxiety there's a lot of conversations around healing and about like having homes of, like transparency and health. And I think, like, just like we have legacy burdens, like an internal family systems we talk about, like we all carry like burdens, just like people come from the Holocaust carry certain burdens and we have grief sometimes there's something called carried grief, like we're carrying the grief of previous generations. So I definitely feel like I've had that and my family has had that. And, in the same note, there's also like there's carry, there's legacy, like there's gifts, right. There's also like there's carry, there's legacy, like there's gifts, right. There's also like legacy gifts that we're given, like that we're bringing forward things that are beautiful, there's strength, there's wisdom, there's humility. So I do want to share that.
Processing a Second Family Loss
Speaker 3But, yeah, I think, as I got a little older and I'm naming this because a lot of people sometimes say why, when life is fine, or why when I'm suddenly this, why all of a sudden, out of the blue, this is coming up for me and I'm like I don't know if it's out of the blue I think you want to integrate, I think you want to live, I think you want to see your, your child, not through the eyes of what you went through, but in the experience of real life and a lot of times when something hasn't been processed emotionally or verbally, um, things come up right, like sometimes somebody will come in and talk to me and they're very activated and it's usually like there's something from the past could even be their parents pain or their parents secrecy that hasn't been shared. So I think, just like I learned, I started learning a lot more about grief. Grief is not usually just grief. I think we spoke about this. Sometimes it's the loss of. If a parent doesn't know how to navigate their grief, if a family doesn't talk about grief, then there's a losing a certain sense of connection, or there's like losing a sense of relatability to other people in the community or um they're shifting your whole identity of who you are as a person. So there's a lot of like um other layers of grief at play, and I will tell you that I remember wanting one of running in one running one of the groups at Mirim, we had a conversation around families that were more open around grief and loss or about potential of death and other ones that weren't, and everyone who shared that there was much more open and honest conversations about all possibilities had significant less symptoms when the loss and death um happened than those where there was a lot more tiptoeing and secrecy around it. And I just I guess my one message over here on this is like it's my message across for anyone in any kind of dynamic. If it's like parents who are navigating difficult marriage, if there is a struggle that you're having, one of the biggest pieces is one to like develop transparency or start making sense of your own emotional narrative for yourself, because even if you don't say anything to your children. If you're clearer, then there's a sense of clarity.
Speaker 3Dr Becky Kennedy she wrote the book Good Insight, where she talks about, as a parent, raising our children could be very difficult, especially if we have children who are deeply our children. Could be very difficult, especially if we have children who are deeply feeling, children who are very sensitive. But she says, like, imagine, she's like, but sometimes we think that we have to tell a secret or cover up and on the one hand, yes, it feels like it could be good to kind of not to protect them, but on the other hand, are we really protecting them? And she says this story like imagine you come into work one day and your boss seems all stressed out and he's like, talking on the phone, really anxious. It sounds like he can't cover his bill for something, something went down, a bad business deal. And you come in and suddenly you realize he's stressed and suddenly he wipes the look off of his face and with a fake smile he's like hi, it's so good to see you. And you say is everything fine? And he says I'm a little stressed. Um, we're going through something a little tricky, but I'm in it together with you and we're gonna all figure this out as a team and I'm gonna have to make some adjustments. But let me tell you a little bit about it, or this is what I could tell you, and if there's any other things, I'll keep you updated.
Speaker 3So she says how, like so many times, we think because we don't know how to deal with our own complicated emotions or our own fears or discomfort, we sugarcoat or we pretend and this is not a me telling a story of what I wish happened, because I love who I am today, I love the humility and the nuance that I'm learning, and I still have so much to learn as a person, as a mom, as a professional, and I've so come to appreciate, like how learning how to hold our emotions or acknowledging the emotional layers of reality as uncomfortable as they are is sometimes the biggest gift we could give ourselves and our children and those around us and this applies, by the way, in adult relationships too.
Speaker 3You know, when somebody is very avoidant or secretive and it's like be transparent with me, right, like there is just a level of safety that comes when life is hard. It's very painful, but like pretending or not being able to share is actually almost even harder and leaves people feeling so alone and the one thing we know about trauma is the most painful part of trauma it could be a loss, it could be a death, it could be a pain is going through the experience alone. It's not always the negative experience. It's going through a painful experience and feeling disconnected from other people. If I can hold someone's hand, if I could be right, even if we look at like the stories of people right now, like the hostages or any kind of research that you look at, people go through pain. When there's another human being in the connection, there's incredible level of relief for the brain and the body, for the brain and the body. I feel like I'm on a soapbox, yeah, no, no.
Speaker 2I could probably ask you a question on every sentence that you said, but I won't. But I am curious to hear when you say when you did go through your processing after your child reached that age, who did you do it with and who, so to speak, I guess, held your hand? And also, as a therapist, you knew all the answers. But that doesn't mean you could really do it yourself, like sometimes a therapist could still Totally no, I couldn't, I totally couldn't.
Connecting Through Shared Loss Experiences
Speaker 3Was there another question and then I'll answer no, I think those two. I was seeing a therapist at the time who I really liked Um, and she was very skilled at what she did. Um, but I started having these like weird symptoms or weird like snippets of memories and um, and of course, I knew everything and I was pretty like evolved and advanced Um. But here's another tidbit. I guess for anyone listening, it's like trust your gut and find really, really skilled people and study people to hold your hand in any process. I would say this for anything in terms of friendships, in terms of workplace, in terms of workplaces, in terms of the community, you're surrounded by. Finding people who really like have your back and really get you and understand you is so important and especially for therapists, like it's having a good therapist that really is like um, getting expert consultation and has training to really support you in whatever you're going through. So I was seeing a therapist and I started sharing some things that were coming up and I just kept feeling like she's not really getting a deeper layer of what I'm saying. And she was a good therapist and actually I was in a pretty advanced training myself at the time and I went over to one of the consultants there and I said I'll share with her some of what I'm going through. And she's like, wow, it looks like you have a deeper layer of healing to do. I'm like, wow, I'm so totally whole. And she's like and so I said, oh, but this is so uncomfortable, like it's in the past. And you know, she said something so profound to me this, this trainer, this consultant of mine, who I really respect I'm not going to share her name because I don't know if I have the liberty to but she said you know what happens? As we're in this line of work, we engage in like different layers of like healing, of like integrating more of ourselves, of our past, our presence, our future, right, so she's like it's not that, it's not that like we never let's say we go through a phase in our life like a lot of therapists say oh, I went through a difficult time and then I got better and now I'm healing. That's not the way that it works. It really isn't. Look at any rabbi, look at any mentor.
Speaker 3Life is an ongoing experience of triumph and of tribulations, of feeling lost and feeling found, of feeling connected, of feeling disconnected, of feeling scared and of feeling safe. And I think it's a matter more of like how do we acknowledge those as ongoing experiences, make better choice points in terms of our relationships, in terms of who we surround ourselves with, so we have more health and more healing, more support, so we have better life. But it's not that those go away. And so she said she's like look, it's an ongoing process of like if you're doing this depth work with clients, which I was and I do people know me I do very depth work with clients. Clients come to me when they're looking for, like, a deeper layer of healing or relief, an EMDR or somatic work, because I feel like that's where the real relief actually takes place in terms of symptom reduction. But she said, if you're committed to this, then you're always going to have like times in your life where, when you're ready to do a deeper layer of work, to really integrate more of who you are, your life, or as you become more present for your own children's needs, there might be some things that come up. So she's like I had a time where, like I had to navigate certain like.
Speaker 3I don't know what she went through, if it was like anxiety or for her it might have been like a period of depression, and she's like. And then like, many years later, she's like things were more steady and there was something that came up with my husband's workplace and she's like it did put me into like a tricky spot and she's like, but then it wasn't as frightening or uncomfortable because I already knew, I got to know my nervous system, I got to understand these symptoms, I understood it but I still needed somebody to hold my hand and she's like and now again she was like way older. She was like in her sixties, almost reaching seventies. She's like I'm going through something else right now with like health issues. You know, she was like just sharing a very human experience of how life is, like a washing machine and there's phases where it feels frightening or uncomfortable, but we almost it's not like, it's not like our lives get better, but we get better. So I think that really gave me comfort.
Speaker 3So I actually consulted with her for a few sessions and then I found a new therapist who just off the bat, like the first few sessions, is in. I think I just felt this like deeper capacity, more of a clinical nuance, to help me process what I was processing. So you asked me oh, so I definitely got like an expert in my corner right. I knew like I know and I knew and I think we all do Like when you have someone who's just like, oh, this is what's going on and here's how I'm going to help you and they don't get overwhelmed and they're just matter of fact is a game changer. Because if you're sitting with a therapist who's overwhelmed I know I'm laughing, I'm not laughing but I'm smiling but it's the most scary and uncomfortable and unsafe feeling to be with a therapist or to share something with someone who looks scared or overwhelmed, and usually it's because they're not the right fit. And I just knew and I guess the good thing that I want to share with anyone is because I am a therapist I did know, wait, I know when something's a good fit and I know when something's not a good fit.
Speaker 3I will say that in finding the right person, I did try a few people and there was one night that I literally sat down on the floor with like my sisters and I was just, I just like burst into tears. I'm like guys, I can't find somebody. I'm like I know what's good work. I'm like, my colleagues are great, I'm great, like. And then I did end up finding somebody who was amazing. But they were like hey, we're going to find someone amazing for you, because I didn't just need therapy. I think when we're, let's say, if you're doing grief Right, so I just felt like I knew that there was a nuanced kind of good somatic processing, good processing about the death and the pain and the fears that I had that were coming up, that I knew could be processed because I did it as a therapist and I had seen a good work being done. So that's one, I think finding someone who really gets you and is experienced in the kind of-.
Speaker 2That also means someone that really knows how to ask the right questions to get you to understand what's going on right.
Finding Connection and Acceptance in Grief
Speaker 3Love what you're saying. Yeah, basically, I love what you're saying. You're basically saying expertise is really someone who it's not that they're doing the therapy for you, it's they know how to ask, like those specific, targeted questions and insights to bring you exactly to the pain and the suffering that you are going through, so actually you could start processing it instead of skipping around it. You're saying like saying to bring you exactly to where you need to go.
Speaker 2Right, because you yourself don't necessarily know where you are and where you need to go.
Speaker 3Oh yeah, to answer that question 100 percent. No, I don't care how smart you are as a therapist. I don't care how smart you are as a therapist, but you see this with rabbis, you see this with like. The one thing I will say, being in the field for like close to 15 years, the one thing that I love about like people I've interacted with, like people in like big leadership roles, rabbinic roles, therapist roles is the people who I admire are very humble, because it doesn't matter how wise you are, it doesn't matter how many contributions you've made to society and to your family and to the world. We're always in a position of giving and we're always in a position of taking. And so I do think that there's something like you're asking me. No, I don't. Just like I know they say like the shoemaker is not going to give his kids the perfect shoes, the doctor can't treat his own child. Yeah, you could have.
Speaker 3For the generic stuff, I do have to say like having good colleagues and having access to a lot of wisdom, I do think just made me feel much more like hopeful and trusting that I would move through whatever symptoms I had, which I did, which is kind of why I'm sharing this on here Because one of the biggest things when I see clients is like I don't get frightened by their symptoms because they make trauma or neglect or loss. It's healable. The pain and the way that we change our beliefs about ourselves or others in the world takes time to process. But like the scarring of the heart, like people don't have to live with symptoms of trauma or symptoms of grief, they don't have to be living in constant trauma or symptoms of grief, they don't have to be living in constant suffering. You're going to live in pain but the intensity of some emotions if you actually help the mind and body process, it really can and does and does lessen if you're getting the right kind of intervention.
Speaker 2Right.
Speaker 3Right, right. This doesn't mean you're not going to have, like I always say with healing I'm always like we're going to engage in healing we always have to leave a slice for grief, because grief is an ongoing process and you might go through an experience where things feel more or less okay and then suddenly you have a neighbor that said something and it kicks off like a grief emotion, right, or so, I think, just like a acknowledging that and knowing how to work with when it comes up. But I do see how, like, the right kind of skills and the right kind of therapeutic interventions really do help. But yeah, mary, I'm, it doesn't matter how skilled you are like, uh, you can't do your own, you can't do your own therapy. Which is why, like, why I say, like I really respect people who are humble, because I'm saying like in I remember writing an article a long time ago.
Speaker 3They asked me like to write an article on parenting and I was, like I'll write something from a therapist standpoint, I'll write something as a parent standpoint. But really, at the end of the day, like, skills and all this research doesn't really matter because at the end of the day, we're all humans doing a human experience. So I think like at the end of the day, we're all kind of like trying to find wholeness in ourselves. But yeah, being skilled maybe just gave me more trust and confidence and knowledge. So I felt like skilled. But yeah, you can't heal your own self.
Speaker 2So in the front community, is there like the therapist? Therapist Like I always wondered. You know Benet Brown, right, she talks about her therapist. I'm like, who's brave enough to be your therapist?
Speaker 3I think some therapists are. So for me, I know that definitely I've been like a picky one. Um, I do think there's something that happens to be I treat some therapists, um, right now, my practice I have like a small practice, meaning not a small practice at a group practice, but on my personal caseload I have just like a number um of clients. I do think that there are some therapists that are more skilled at treating therapists, because essentially, what you? There's two things. One is that I don't know if it's that you need to be an expert. I do think you need to be very clinically nuanced and have a lot of skills, but I think it's more than that.
Speaker 3If I can be a little like candid, I think it's that you're someone who has done a lot of depth work and you're continuously doing self-reflection, which I think all therapists are, but some are a lot more like self-reflective I think about, like Judy Herman she talks about, like doing trauma work or doing deep grief work, like there's a level of pain, like you're letting your client's stories be carved into your heart, and I feel like that's the kind of therapist that I like to be and I want to always be, and every therapist is different, like some or different phases in our life, we can't.
Speaker 3There was a period of time that I took a break from seeing one-on-one clients when I was struggling a lot of staff at our office. I was focused on my trauma, training and parenting. I didn't have that same level of bandwidth and to me I was like I'd rather take like a six month break or a year break from the one on work, then do not depth work for my clients. And then I resumed when I was able to like manage my energy better and be like okay how much energy.
Speaker 3Because to me it's like if I'm really sitting with clients, like I like the depth work is there, oh, but for therapists I think there are some therapists that work with therapists and then you also want to notice like who's in the room, because you're not here to treat the therapist, you're here to treat the self and so the therapist self is just a part. If you think about IFS parts work, we have different parts. It's basically just a part that could be in the room. So you don't want like two colleagues talking to each other. It's basically like the therapist part could be professional. It's almost like when I treat a doctor or a lawyer or a person who's in like corporate leadership. It's like I'm going to notice you have that part of you and that part I'm going to ask it to like let's acknowledge it and step aside so I can actually work with the symptoms or the struggles. So you have to be a little bossy, not in a bad way.
Speaker 3But Pat Ogden always says the founder of sensory motor therapy she says like you only contact what you want to work with. So if a client comes in telling you five different stories but their core theme is loneliness or their core theme. Core theme is anger. Don't go along with everything else. You say I'm, wow, I'm hearing there's so much going on and and could we notice the anger that comes up when you talk about you, know your father, so so it's also like knowing how to be a little like strategic, and this is where I'm going, zooming in, and this is where I'm zooming out.
Speaker 2Yeah, Wow, it's amazing. Okay, so we know that you have that humbleness that's needed with therapists. So anyone listening, if you want a humble therapist, should we talk about your second loss or something you don't want to, someplace you don't want to go to?
Speaker 3My second loss, oh, my, the second uncle that passed away. Yes, okay, so actually, no, that's okay. I'm very sensitive right now talking about it, but that's because loss is very painful. Um, the second loss was incredibly different, actually. This is why I should talk about it. So then I had an uncle who, when he was 40 years old uh, this is like painful to talk about I have a an uncle that when he was 40 years old, he had, um, like a sudden heart attack. He has a wife and 11 children that he left behind um, is this from your father's side?
Speaker 2no same same, okay, okay um one second.
Speaker 3I'm just like taking a breath for a second no problem but I want to tell you something like as I zoom out. First of all, my mother's family is incredible in terms of coming together in face of crises and pain and connection, and we've always had like um rabbi, that we were very close to that point. My grandparents lived in Israel.
Speaker 3We're very close to the Talna Rabbah um, so I think, like having like Das Torah and the right support is really important he was really there for, like my cousins and my aunts and you know just like being able to process the loss. Actually it was right before Purim, so we still celebrated Purim and then we sat Shabbat. But I have to say something. This is what I think is important. I think I shared with you the second loss did not hit as hard and did not cause me at like nearly the impact that the first one did, and I think I was sharing this with you, not because I think people should go through loss, but because I think that, like I was older, so mentally I was able to understand what was going on. I asked a lot more questions. I was much more part of, like the grieving process and the pain and the shock I was able to move through, like the anger and the loss and just so many of the emotions and the sadness that I didn't get to experience when I was a kid and even just seeing like being almost like on the same footing, like I was already like older. I was in my 20s, I was at a different phase of life so like I could appreciate the emotions were harder for me, but they were easier in the long run, and so I guess the reason I was saying all of this is because, although that was very, both of them were very painful. The one that was much more confusing as a child, and I guess this is the piece on like taking away confusion and, by the way, so much of what trauma work is just so you know, whenever I help someone process, let's say, they had a parent that was very emotionally absent and there was grief. Sometimes it's the grief and sometimes it's you know what, like I lost a brother but my mother was so emotionally gone and I just needed my mother to look at me when I was crying about my brother. You know, like sometimes that's the piece that's so painful. Or when somebody's processing sexual trauma or somebody and they're like, wait, I don't know, but I think he touched me or maybe he just looked at me in the sexual kind of way. So the confusion is the thing that really causes people symptoms, because we want to help people understand their emotions, make sense of their stories, process it and then they could be okay.
Speaker 3Trauma or grief or loss is not what destroys us. It's the confusion and it's called, in scientific terms, dysfunctionally stored information. It's like having a piece of meat that you. It's like giving a baby a piece of meat and they don't have teeth so they can't chew it to swallow, so they constantly are having indigestion. If you have a loss in your family, if you have grief, if there's secrets, if there's privacy, if there's lack of emotional space, so you can't do with your family, so hire a therapist, have an auntie, have someone, someone in the school, you know, like find a friend, someone to talk to, to process these emotions, cause if we don't process it it makes us sick.
Speaker 3So back to this, like I think, the not confusion, the clarity. Of course there's pain, but it was like an ache. It wasn't like an ache that like cause what we. It wasn't an ache that went away and then came back very strongly. So unprocessed grief often is like we see this with trauma right, or pain is like if something hasn't been processed, like as a child likely, I kind of felt it.
Speaker 3I probably tucked it away in some kind of way which was brilliant, and then as an adult it came back for it to be processed. Which is why so many times people land up in my office or my group practice office or therapists that I train in my trauma training, like fellow clients who you know, suddenly has like teenagers in their twenties or thirties or forties. I've worked with someone who was like in their seventies, who was like I have so much anger. Yeah, there was one person I had a really profound conversation with. He said to me I'm old and I actually am sick, but I have a couple more years on this planet and I don't want to die an angry man. It's like I have so much anger in my body and I want to at least have a couple of years on this earth that I'm not feeling angry. I want to have a better relationship with my children.
Speaker 2That is so sad.
Speaker 3It was sad and it was so beautiful that there was someone who could value me, you think about, like people who struggle, who are like in recovery for addiction, and they always say, like, if you can even have one sober day and you can appreciate being present like he had this guy, then you can appreciate the value of that which we actually value as Jews this man. It was very sad, but what really touched me is how incredible that a man who was so emotionally not tuned into his emotions is actually realizing the one most important thing is his relationship with his children and that he he wants to actually be, not live a life that's constantly stuck in anger. He actually had maybe it was his energy. It wasn't an angry energy, it was like, hey, you know, you're like half my age or whatever he said. He said like a funny joke and he's like but could you help me? I'm like, listen, you're way wiser than me, let's just get that out of the way, but I might be able to help you work through your anger. So it was very sweet.
Speaker 3But to me what touched me is like sometimes different generations or different family members are receptive to openness and some aren't, and I guess for me, just as a person like I I value in my own parents or like elders in my family are receptive and humble to talking about emotions when maybe they weren't in a previous life. Like when I have conversations with my parents, sometimes it's like it's fascinating how like it's just different conversations that we can have when we develop emotional awareness. And so I guess I appreciated, as someone who's seen people in their 70s and 80s in my family some who are more open and some are less I guess I valued the openness or the wanting to be open to that. But yeah, I think like the differences of how the losses impacted me was very profound to notice.
Speaker 2So I'll tell you what I'm thinking now, and I'm not even sure what you said. I don't know. I guess something that you said about, I don't know, noticing it at different times, the trauma, I'm not even sure, but it's coming up a conversation that I had recently. My sister passed away and it was never. Birthdays were never, are never, a hard thing for me. It doesn't. It doesn't like I know many people have a hard time with it.
Speaker 1I don't.
Speaker 2But I was talking to someone and I said, and I said, oh my gosh, hello, by the way. Do you know that yesterday was my sister Esty's birthday? And I didn't even realize until, like I think it could be, the day was over and he could be, it was like 12 or one. When I saw my other sisters, Like that's right, I said, but you know what mattered to me, she would have been 50. And that hit me like 50, like like that's like an age, that's like a big birthday. And somehow, like that hit me and I'm thinking about that as you're talking, I'm not even sure why. And then I look at the screen that we're recording on you know, Esther and Miriam, right, Esther and Miriam, like that's what we were, you know, and I don't know. I guess I just have to like put it out there. There's something that you said about I don't know something.
Speaker 3Wow, how old were you when your sister passed? I'm saying, how many years ago was that? Is that okay to ask?
Speaker 2It's a question that I hate, because for those that didn't go through a loss, it seems like, oh, it's so long ago. You're used to life without her already. It happened so long ago, but she's still so close to me in so many ways and I think about her and talk about her all the time. Let me see, it's 12 years. No, my daughter's 14, and she's named after her and I was very early pregnant. I guess that means it's about 12 years.
Speaker 2But she's like getting into nail polish. Now, my daughter, I'm not into nails, as you can see, but she's like very into it and she's busy for vacation. I was busy like for vacation. I let her like buy the nails I'm putting she's busy, yeah, being all over the place and I was like Esty, esty, esty was busy with the nails.
Speaker 2Oh, she is. Oh, like it just comes up. Yeah, like you said, like it could be fine, and then something will trigger that like, yes, esty and her nails. Now Esther Malky, my daughter would appreciate those nails.
Speaker 3You know whatever, wow, so yeah yep, I think it changes us, like, um I was just talking to a client about this about like, like health and sickness and like life and death, and I think that we're all impacted by it, some of us more than others. Some of us have seen like a darker, more painful side of life, um, either in loss, either in pain, in like neglect and abuse and trauma and confusion and feeling ostracized socially, limited academically, Like I just want to name that there's so many different ways that people go through loss and grief, right, like infertility, older singles, like I think there's just so many aspects, special needs, children. Like there are so many external and internal, like implicit aspects to grief, and I think that like being able to speak about like it's just a different world when you experience the reality of loss right Because we're not programmed to lose.
Speaker 3We're programmed to lose elderly people loss, right, because we're not programmed to lose. We're programmed to lose elderly people, right. It's like a full life cycle and even then it's really difficult. But I think it's very tricky when it's like as a sister I mean, I'm actually one of five and I have I'm one of four girls and a brother Like as you say, that that makes me so sad. Like my sisters mean so much to me that 12, 14 years ago, like what do you mean? She's your sister. Like that's huge. Sisters could be like best friends, you know. Yeah, is it difficult to be asked like having these conversations. Is it okay for me to ask on here, like, is it painful to hear about people's loss or does it? What's it like for you to hear other people's stories?
Speaker 2to hear about people's loss, or does it? What's it like for you to hear other people's stories? No, I don't find it difficult because number one I learn a lot from people.
Speaker 1I love learning. I love meeting people, I love getting to know people.
Speaker 2I really, really do. I just finished, I mean, oh, whatever, still editing stages, but the finished writing with. I did with you know, mr Holman, a book for parents that lost children. And people ask me like how do you do that? Like I hear so many sad stories. You know, there's always like I see people, or I speak to people, I should say, at the most vulnerable, vulnerable, painful points, like I see greatness. I mean, you wouldn't know that your neighbor next door made a decision to do X, y and Z because of her grief. You see a lady that looks like she's going to the grocery store but really she told me that when she went to the grocery store, this is what happened and this is what she thought and this is what she decided.
Speaker 3I'm like people are like so amazing and then I tell Hashem that really Moshiach, because we're so great and I know that he knows that, because he knows more than what I know. We need mashiach on many levels but, yeah so you're almost like touched by people's inspiration, right like, basically, in face of pain. You're seeing like you're seeing people's like soul shine through.
Speaker 2Right, it's well, but I wouldn't. It's not inspiration. It's like real internal work that they, that they work on. Yeah, because they're't. It's not inspiration.
Speaker 3It's like real internal work that they, that they work on yeah, because they're right, right, it's not. I'm not saying organic inspiration, it's basically when we're broken. It's like sometimes we're broken open and then you're saying, like you're seeing the work or the effort, people are Right. What about pain? Like? What about not everybody's always inspired, not everyone's always like doing something beautiful?
Speaker 2No, I was just going to say that I'm not. I'm not necessarily seeing the people that started huge organizations and who knows what. I'm seeing people like sharing with me, like their own, like their own personal, their own personal growth, like trying to think. I don't know why I usually have a million examples. Why can nothing come to mind, like a woman that she, she lost a married daughter and whatever happened? I don't, I don't even know exactly that. She didn't tell me exactly what happened, but they accused her of whatever it was that they accused her and they didn't let her see her grandchildren anymore, her daughter's children. They used to live on the same block, they were coming and going all the time and now suddenly she couldn't see them. Do you know, like, what strength it took for her to say I'm not going to fight it out, like it's not worth it and I'm just going to accept and instead she davened, she cried Like she was in tremendous pain, but like she didn't do an ounce of my focus.
Speaker 2And I listened to her and I'm like, oh my gosh, like they totally wrongly accused her. She knew who did the thing that they accused her of, but it was their side. She didn't want to talk less than her. She, you know, understood that they're also in pain. They also went through a loss like and she didn't?
Speaker 2I'm like hello and that's not something you're just going around telling the whole world yeah, you know so like things like that that I just leave me like so amazed really, and like I don't another story. Someone told me how she came to terms with accepting that her like the doctor really there was malpractice and her daughter died, but then how she came to terms with it and accepted it as Hashem's will, because whatever happened, there's just so much like that and I don't know why.
Final Thoughts and Resources
Speaker 3Wow, yeah, no, I actually appreciate you clarifying. It's like these layers of acceptance, right? It's like these layers of acceptance, right. It's like cause. There's layers of like grief and denial and then like leaning into acceptance, and that's really what I'm hearing in all of these Cause. So many big emotions come up.
Speaker 2Um, and the day-to-day life and the day-to-day thoughts and moments, and yeah, so so tell me, is there anything that we didn't talk about that we should talk about before we end, I think?
Speaker 3what I would like. I think what I would want to like leave the listeners with if anyone is listening is a few messages. If I could like just recap One is that, like grief is a universal experience. So if you lost someone that you loved, that's one kind of grief. If, if that's the most painful grief, then like that's your work to work on or to process, and if you are grieving like the loss of of a relationship or a feeling or a hope or a dream in your family, like that's also just as valid.
Speaker 3Actually wrote a few blogs on grief, um, so if anyone wants to like Google my name, esther Goldstein Grief, you'll see there's some blogs there with like some resources, some tips, some self-care, like exercises. But it's actually not about skipping over. It's about helping you process through the grief, because there's like grief that gets complicated, that gets stuck, and then there's grief like successful grief. Successful grief is that you move through the emotions and there's a, there's an energy of movement, and then, like complicated grief or stuck grief is when you get stuck in, as people are sometimes afraid, like I don't want to be angry and I'm like there's anger that you get trapped in and there's anger that you move through, we always want to go with the one that you're moving through. Right, so there's processing through it, but you don't want to skip over it, right so it's like so that's one is. Like brief is universal experience.
Speaker 3I think the other thing is like if you can try to make sense of your story for you or for your loved one or your children, and just find the people or place or person to just start mapping the pieces together so that you lessen the confusion If maybe there's an ongoing loss or pain or something of the past, like often the brain and the body really just need to digest the information. Obviously, for whatever age, appropriate is appropriate. But like be mindful of avoiding for yourself or for others. Or like sometimes I'll see a parent or someone in a relationship and they avoid certain topics and then their partner or husband wife is like they should never want to talk about this and really it's because they're terrified, they're avoiding something else. So there's a lot of losses sometimes when we avoid, like we're losing something else, losing a relationship with our children if they want something deeper. So like lesson avoidance. And I think the last thing that I would say is I think like find your people think, find your people, friends like Miriam you're talking about. Like I think Mayrim is an incredible organization.
Speaker 3I think grief is the kind of thing if you look at the research we really heal in communities, so we don't heal one-on-one. And of course I'm going to say, like if you need a therapist, go find one, but if that's not what you're needing or if you already have one, find your people who understand pain or could tolerate pain and also could tolerate joy. Like I find people in the grief community or the trauma community have a lot of capacity for pain but also have the biggest capacity for laughter. I think like laughter and being silly.
Speaker 3Just earlier today I was talking to my mom about something she said and my nickname is Estee even though people call me Esther, your sister's name is Estee, so Esty like if you ever want to become a comedian cause, I'm so silly and goofy like everyone knows this in my life. Um, and I think, like when we've dealt with grief or pain or loss, I think one of the only ways to really cope is to also find the funny and the weird and the humorous in life. So I think, like, find your people and really find people in places and things that help you like giggle deep, belly laughter, because I think that's part of like what Hashem wants and what I think real living is about. It's like being able to feel all the feelings.
Speaker 2And I just think we have to like say this, that when a person goes through loss, their friendships might change and they shouldn't let go of the friends that were always so close, because they can't get the loss, because they might need to like come back to them. It's something to still hold on to, but try to find those friends that you really could talk to or laugh with or whatever it is.
Speaker 3Yes, yeah, I'm not a big believer in letting go of friendships. I think, like being aware of different friends can have different capacities. I do think that sometimes realizing friends have certain emotional capacities more than others, but like finding your way, like, let's say, just like, if you have a child who has dyslexia, there are other friends that don't, might not understand, and so instead of just thinking we're not going to be friends with these people anymore, it's like, well, there is a disconnect or they don't fully understand it. And if I do find someone who has some kind of like difference in the way that they learn or read, I could actually have a level of relatability. But really it starts with understanding yourself. And yeah, I do think that sometimes relationships will shift and tweak, because that's how life is. And yeah, finding, I think, just like finding our people and having connection is what helps us move through life with more okayness, Okay.
Speaker 2So I hope everyone finds that connection and finds that okayness and thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 3I'm so happy to be here. Yeah, I think this is one of the forms, mary, I'm like these podcasts, these conversations I think is really a platform for people to tune in, listen to stories, take what resonates, drop what doesn't, and I really want to thank you for being on here, for inviting me on.
Speaker 2Thank you. Thank you so so much.
Speaker 1You on Thank you. Thank you so so much. You've just listened to an episode of the Relief from Grief podcast with Miriam Riviat, brought to you by Mayrim. For more episodes, visit the Mayrim website at wwwmayrimorg. Help us reach more people who might benefit from this podcast. If you know someone who could find it helpful, please share it with them. If you have questions or comments for the speaker, or if you'd like to suggest a guest for the podcast, we'd love to hear from you. Email us at relieffromgrief at mayrimorg. We look forward to having you join us in the next episode.