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The Grief Journey By Mayrim
When I launched Relief from Grief in 2022, I thought it would be a short-term project. But the feedback was overwhelming:
•Grievers found inspiration and comfort.
•Listeners who hadn’t experienced loss gained meaningful insights into grief.
•Professionals shared how valuable the podcast was for their clients.
I realized this podcast was meeting a deep, ongoing need — and I was determined to continue serving that need.
I’m honored to partner with Mayrim, an organization dedicated to supporting families who have lost a child. Mayrim is the perfect partner because its founders and members understand the pain of loss firsthand. It’s my hope that each guest shares encouragement and understanding, helping listeners feel less alone. Together, we can find hope and comfort — one moment at a time.
The Grief Journey By Mayrim
Chanie Delman, LCSW, PMH-C: No Such Thing as Too Short to Matter
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Mrs. Chanie Delman is an exceptionally sympathetic person, deeply attuned to the pain of losing a baby who was born incompatible with life. She understands how a parent may struggle with this loss — not only with their own grief but also with the conflicting messages they may receive from family, friends, and even their own inner voices telling them, "It isn’t so bad."
Mrs. Delman, who has worked with hundreds of women and couples facing this kind of loss, gently encourages parents with messages of validation and support. In this podcast, she shares important guidance on how to explain your needs to your spouse, how to seek support from family members and friends, and how to avoid being so hard on yourself after experiencing such a devastating loss.
Chanie also speaks about the difference between pity and empathy — how most people long for empathy but deeply resent pity. She helps us understand how to become vessels of genuine empathy, showing real, heartfelt care for those going through such a difficult time.
But perhaps the most powerful lesson is Chanie herself — a living example of compassion and understanding for those who have endured the heartbreaking loss of a stillborn or a baby who lived only a few minutes.
YouTube: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsK24OSmIYG_XWzeplhfmb8LJcWKphITh&si=untn3fmHLLaEEFNm
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/relief-from-grief-by-mayrim/id1788349916
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3AvWNp0DrHqE5AVYJHooiK?si=ufpIObuGRumS5uFXmvrpgA
Questions or feedback? Email me at: podcast@mayrim.org
Introduction to Mayrim's Mission
Speaker 1Welcome to the Relief from Grief podcast, hosted by Mrs Miriam Rebiet and brought to you by Merim. Merim is an organization dedicated to supporting families who have experienced the loss of a child. It was founded by Iloy Nishmat's, nechama Liba and Miriam Holman. Despite her illness, miriam devoted herself to addressing the needs of parents and siblings grappling with the immense pain of losing a child. She felt this loss deeply, having experienced it firsthand when her older sister, nechama Liba, passed away. Mehrim continues to uplift and expand on the work Miriam began, a mission carried forward by her parents with great dedication. If you have any questions or comments for the speaker, or if you'd like to suggest a guest for the podcast, please email us at relieffromgrief at mayrimorg.
Speaker 2Hi everybody. Thank you so much for joining us here today on the Relief from Grief by Mayrim podcast. So today I'm so happy that Mrs Hani Delman agreed to come on. Hani is a licensed clinical social worker and she facilitates a lot of infancy loss groups and she's also done work together with the Holmans for Mayrim. So thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 3Thank you so much for having me. I'm listening to a lot of you're bringing so much to the opening to the grief and bereavement worlds. Like the things like no one's talking about. Like podcast after podcast, you're talking about it. It's really beautiful.
Meeting Hani: A Specialist in Reproductive Loss
Speaker 2It was very funny. I have to just share the story now that you talk about that I went to. I had a doctor's appointment yesterday and she said to me something about if I ever had any genetic testing or anyone in my family, because I went through a lot of loss in my own family. And I said to her something like no, genetically I'm sure I'm fine, because if I wouldn't be, I would be dead by now. She's like what? I was like yeah, I would be dead. She's like okay, why is your family dead? I'm like kind of I would be dead. She was like okay, why is your family dead? I'm like kind of that's me. We were morbid humor. She was looking at me and I was like and then I whatever? Told her all the losses that I went through. But then she was asking me what I do and I do like different things. I was like thinking what should I say? I was like okay, the podcast makes the most sense. She thinks I'm crazy. Let me at least tell her that, at least out of my story.
Speaker 3So I just thought that was funny, but anyways, okay.
Speaker 2So can you tell us a little bit about, I guess, what you do, who you treat?
Speaker 3Sure, sure. So yeah, I'm a licensed clinical social worker and I'm most of my specialty is reproductive and maternal mental health, and so I really focus on infertility at any range. So I really focus on infertility at any range. I focus on miscarriage and infancy loss. I focus on loss at any point and postpartum mood disorders I treat, and then I dabble in those struggling with their spouses that are going through addictions. So the spouse that's husband or wife is struggling with their spouses that are going through addictions. So the spouse that's husband or wife is struggling with addiction. It's kind of a sidebar.
Speaker 2Wow, yeah, that's like very different. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3You know over the years in practice, like there's an ebb and flow to what you kind of hone in on. So, I also facilitate. I volunteer for an organization called Canafiant, which supports infancy and pregnancy losses, and I facilitate their monthly group for mommies who have lost their babies, infants that have lived at any point, mommies who have lost their babies, infants that have lived at any point.
Speaker 2So what does that mean? Any point, like I'll tell you when I was working on this book right, that's hopefully going to come out soon. It's time for parents that lost children. So I was very especially after speaking to like Devorah Enten and Malky Klerstenfeld, from Kind of Fine, I was like, okay, so a child is really counted from like, uh, a stillborn which is like the sixth month or something like that, and I didn't think that would go into the book and it kind of did, because it kind of went naturally with, like you know, stillborns and and you know whatever, and babies that die you know right away.
Speaker 2And then, um, okay, sorry, I didn't mean to sound so callous, um, I didn't mean to say in the a callous way, I know it's very painful, but then when I was going over it with Mr Holman and he was like there's still just a difference. This book is for children that lived, even if it's for two minutes. So I switched it and I did make it like that was the starting point. So I'm just curious what you have to say about what that means. You know, as far as a child losing a baby that lives, like. Is that true? Like two minutes, two hours or three weeks, like it's the same kind of pain?
Speaker 3So on our call I always kind of put that out there because it's a call, so no one's really sure who else is on I'll say this call is and this call actually developed from it's where we many, many years of calls that everyone was on the same call and at a certain point I think actually one of the women said to Malke, we need our own call, we've lost babies, they've just had miscarriages or stillbirths. So I would say it's not for me to differentiate, I stay where the client's at. So someone who I'm counseling and supporting through a stillbirth, I have to stay with that on how they are still and they were carrying their baby and lost their baby. So I really try to stay where my client is at. So if someone's coming in having experienced a stillbirth, I have to hold that space for them and counsel them through that. And someone who's coming in and on our call, it really starts from a woman who has given birth to a baby that's lived from seconds even. You know, like you kind of said minutes, I'll say seconds even. Wow, he has lived to and I'll say it minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, right, and a mother is a mother.
Speaker 3So there probably are nuances, you know there probably are differences, but for the person who's experienced it, I just stay with that. I just stay with them. It hasn't come up that much on our call that that will become a. Well, mine was only minutes. You know stillbirths are different but again, the pain, the grief that they're experiencing has to be given space for and room to hold as well in process. So I'll let Glenn take lead there. Yeah, yeah, and you'll hear that. You know, you'll hear that piece of like someone who has experienced a baby that's lived will say that, well, my baby lived. Someone who's experienced a stillbirth will say, well, I still had a baby. So it's kind of like, okay, we'll just stay where they're at.
Speaker 2Right, right, and I think that one important part of this podcast is for mothers to understand that they're like not to judge themselves for their pain because their baby didn't live, or their baby only lived for two minutes, like it's all so normal and so painful and that needs to really be validated.
Speaker 3And what's beautiful about this podcast giving space for it and then like the call I do and other supports is that they then have the space right when maybe someone else is like can't give them that space or can't really understand, oh, it only lived a little bit. Like there is that piece out there. Okay, you know, like you know, move, move on, they still have the space. Last week I had my call. There was a woman who came on. She had a loss 10 years ago of a baby and I was just like so happy she's like oh, you know, I was touching base and I just wanted to come on and I'm like amazing, like let's give space to your baby and you can be the other woman on the call and give support to them. Wow, yeah, so it's really a range.
Defining Infant Loss: Every Life Matters
Speaker 3And and the range also is, you know, with an infancy, infancy loss, the range of how the baby has is very varied as well. Right? So in my practice and on my call, it could be they knew about it in utero, right, there are complications in the pregnancy. They knew potentially the baby wasn't compatible with life rates later on and they had to go to full term and deliver that baby. There are ones that know only after the baby's born. Right, they're told at birth this baby's really sick, it's only going to live, we're not sure how long. There's SIDS, right. Just sudden, you take that healthy baby home. Everything's fine, fine. Then, weeks months later, right, the baby dies. Suddenly there's emergencies within. You know that birth and and so there's such a range and, like every person's experience and everyone woman's, you know, holding that baby is like, okay, where are they at?
Speaker 2what happens if a mother finds out when she's pregnant that the baby is incompatible with life and she comes to you? Do they come to you when they're pregnant? Yeah, yeah, and then what happens Like it's like you can't really prepare for it right. Even if you think you're prepared, when it actually happens it's devastating.
Speaker 3Yeah, so I'm not going to get into the halachic aspects of it. So there sometimes is termination for medical purposes, but that would happen much earlier on. But, for the sake of our conversation, they will be giving birth and there's a lot of work in you know. It's already a mourning period that starts before the baby's born, sometimes right, knowing that I'm going to give birth to this baby and that's, you know, most likely right.
Speaker 3I've been told this baby won't live right, or it will only live a certain amount, and it's a holding space for that mourning and it's almost like mourning before the death, which is an interesting difference um, that you start preparing and again no one could be prepared. But it's a different. There is some preparing parts rather than like a sudden right Um, and so I don't love the word but, for lack of better word, there's an acceptance that would be worked on and talked through, and acceptance can go up and down and in and out, and there's probably, you know, supporting them through understanding what's going on medical pieces. You know how they want to talk to the family about it, how they want to let people know. So a lot of people will come in then because they really do need the support to get to that birth, and then the expectation that there's going to be a loss.
Speaker 2Do you see a lot of differences in how families support the couple going through this?
Speaker 3Yeah, and that's sometimes my number one question who's your support, how are they working out, how are they doing?
Speaker 3And it just really varies.
Speaker 3I always feel kind of bad because I'll say to women and many times I'll have couples come in together post loss as well and and counsel them on that Um, it's kind of on the person who's gone through the loss to verbalize, make maybe what they need, right, I always say sorry, guys, like I know, I know I really don't want to have to do this, but if you don't tell someone they're not gonna know.
Speaker 3And so podcasts like this and articles and speaking engagements and you know we've gotten so much better as a community and understanding loss, what to say, what not to say, what to do, what does this person need, but yet still it always comes back to. I just have to say it. If I need you to do this for me, if I'm having that burning feeling inside, I'm just probably going to have to communicate it, whether it's husband to wife, wife to husband, whether it's to a mother, sister, whoever's of their support. And sometimes I'll say sometimes support systems are just really bad. It's like they don't know how to show up, they don't know what to do.
Speaker 2And they argue what do you mean? You need this. For me, that's ridiculous.
Speaker 3Exactly, or like really still you're, you're still not okay, or like come on Right, there will be those comments Say you've written the books. I only have a book that I'm going to write. All the stupid things, all the stupid things people say, and every one of my clients has like contributed to these things that people say.
Speaker 3And I always say like I really don't believe people are mean, malicious, I just think they're ignorant or they think it's or it's coming from a good place to say it, but they don't know how to right. I don't think anyone wants bad for you or means you know, really like yikes, but I just like they don't know, they don't know or they don't know what to know. And so I always kind of just really empower the bereaved to be able to say, hey, like I need you to take my other kids Right, or I need to, like I need you guys to be normal around me Right, like when they're you know, kind of come back into the scene. Like I need you to be normal around me, I want to talk about my baby, I want you to ask me how I'm doing.
Speaker 2Don't avoid it. And what if a mother I think unfortunately you have too many mothers like this today a parent, whatever, a parent of the bereaved, a mother, a father but I feel like in this case it'd be more the mothers that they're either narcissists or I don't know if this is the same thing like maybe they're not officially narcissists but everything has to be all about them and you know they'll come to the bereaved mother's house and just sit there and cry and say, oh, this is terrible and I feel so bad for you and I was so excited to have a grandchild and you know all those types of things. So that, like then, what could a parent do?
Speaker 3That's a hard one, that's a really. What do they do without the loss with this mother? Exactly everything going to parental alienation in therapy. That's okay, good, good, um, you know, I, I think it's about listen. Normally you won't be able to kind of say to that person, hey, it's not about you, um, but if there's someone that can identify that, or if there's someone around another support system that can kind of get them out of the way, you know to allow for this bereaved mother, you know the baby's mommy, to just be and to have their space, that would be, you know like that, you know just to kind of look out for that.
Speaker 3I always say, like, when I come into and we can talk about this in a minute leader, but sometimes there's Shiva, sometimes there's not right. So we know that about infant loss under 30 days, there is a private Kfura by the Chavar Kedisha and there's no Shiva. And so let's say there is Shiva. I come into the room and I always say who's the one that's not sitting Shiva, but sitting Shiva, emotionally, right, we always talk about that. And there will be the grandparents, right, the, the, the very close friends, that was went through that with her. Um, the babysitter, right, right, like there's just so many other people in the room that could could be going through that as well, and so you hope kind of. Just back to the question. Like there's someone just kind of looking out and like maybe, um, she'll need her own support, right, maybe her friends can kind of pick up on that. That's, grandmother, who was just self-centered.
Speaker 2Let's just say yeah wow, okay, so should we go there? Should we talk about the Shiva versus the not Shiva?
Speaker 3Yeah, um, it's a very hard piece because, on you know, in the women I support um and and and on our call I'll you'll hear both right and and.
Supporting Families Through Anticipated Loss
Speaker 3It's a hard piece because I I do think most of the time, um, I'll hear that I wanted the shiva right, I wanted the, the proper levi, I wanted the shiva um and, and it's a hard piece for them really understanding the intricates of why that is um, that they don't, they don't get that quote-unquote closure right, there's some closure that one experiences with a Leviah, with a Shiva, with talking about it, and there's a lot of pain, right, there's a lot of like.
Speaker 3Sometimes I feel like in my office becomes a Shiva process, right, we do it together, you know, allowing that couple, whether it's the mother or the couple together to have that experience of mourning and to have that experience of talking about their baby. And so sometimes I'll try to introduce that, to introduce that that that may be an option for them, that they can do it very silently or together or in my office, so that they have some opportunity to do that. And then even shivas that are over 30 days with a baby, maybe no one met, maybe the baby was only in the hospital. Maybe no one knew about. Maybe no one knew what was happening was only in the hospital. Maybe no one knew about. Maybe no one knew what was happening. It's a painful shiva as well, because you don't have stories yet that are like a typical shiva of stories.
Speaker 2So I know one mother said to me it's actually the grandmother that said to me, but the baby, that dad was maybe 18 months or something. She said, so what we say that? Oh, he said 25 words. By the time he was 18 months. He must have been brilliant. Like it sounds so petty and so silly. But what do you say? And I believe you know, sitting shiva, mother or father doesn't want to hear usually, you know, and everything that happens is best. Then you must be so strong and hashem shoes is only the ones he loves.
Speaker 3Yeah, I actually just could go there for a minute. I actually asked this past week on my call, what would you want me to share? Like I'm doing this podcast, what would you want me to share? And when you said that, it reminded me of that. You know, when people tell them you're such a tzaddikas, you must be a tzaddikas.
Speaker 3And a few of the women were like I don't want to hear that. First of all, you don't know my status, you don't know that about me, like, and I, you know I'm not holding at a very high holy place for this to have happened, right, hashem chose me and and I get mixed reviews with, like someone saying you're so strong, this doesn't feel very strong, I feel like I'm falling apart. So I don't you know that one doesn't either sit well um with with women, um, and and really what you know, being a little sensitive to that, as as the person coming in and and you know, being Menachem, ava, like those aren't things they want to hear. You're so strong Like they don't feel that way in those moments, right, they don't feel that way. Who's the loss?
Speaker 2right, I'm thinking of a title.
Speaker 3Now we could do, like you know, I am not a today kiss, and if I am, I don't know and you for sure don't know yeah, yeah, maybe years later I've heard that sentiment, like I could see how that um was something that really made me grow or that helps me in my midos, or helped me in my you know connection to hashem, my you know connections to Hashem. But in those days, weeks, within that few months, no, it's not. You feel crushed and crumbled. That's not, you know.
Speaker 2Wow. So I was going to ask you how this could affect Shambayis, but before I ask you that, like anything else important, that they said yeah, yeah, they brought up a few things.
Speaker 3So you know, I love this line. Like loss is not contagious, like don't hide from me, avoid me, avoid the topic. I even heard that many times before. You've spoken about it with many of your guests, and it's not. And women don't want to feel that way. They don't want to feel that.
Speaker 3Like you know, and again, this is this, is this, is that message to other people. It's only as uncomfortable as you make it right, like she's okay, she's comfortable talking about her baby. She wants to make me talk about her baby and nothing is going to happen if you come up to her. And you know, and that the more of that avoidance is where they get hurt. You know, they, you know I've heard this also like there's a fear of like everyone's going to forget my baby, right, people aren't going to remember my baby, and that's a real, you know so. So one of the things we talk about is well, mommy will never forget her baby, you know, and most of the time there's most likely a few different women, a few different people, a few different um, a therapist, a support person, a nurse will never forget your baby, right, and knowing that from the other end, women want to talk about their babies potentially, or maybe they don't want to openly have conversation, but they don't want to avoid it.
Speaker 2Um, I spoke to a woman that um lost her baby and I think it was a few days. A few weeks later, her sister-in-law I think it was had a baby, a boy, the same gender, and 13 years later she was struggling with it. She's like, did everyone forget that I have a baby, a child the same age? Like it was very hard for her, like everyone forgot To them. Life moved on. It was a baby. He didn't live more than however long, but he would be having a bar mitzvah also. Now. It was very like she was in a lot of pain 13 years later and she felt like she had like no place to go with it. Because who's listening to something that happened 13 years ago and whatever.
Speaker 3When you say that it like, yeah, like it's, it's so hard that is one of the things also they shared, that they are at you know whether, and here we have perm coming up, or whether it's a sitter play, whether it's a bar mitzvah, an upsharon, they are following the milestones of the other babies that were born at the same time as their baby. They're following those milestones. They see those, those clothing, that costume, and they do go there and it brings it up and they're mourning their babies and I do think you know it up and they're mourning their babies. And I do think, you know, out of sensitivity, if there's someone in the room that notices that and says that and puts that out there, a lot of mommies want that, you know, like I want someone to acknowledge hey, you know, surely it would have been three. Yeah, my, surely my Chaim's surly would have been three. Right, Can we?
Speaker 2just talk about the difference between acknowledging oh surly would have been three.
Speaker 3And oh, surly would have been three. I feel so bad for you, right. Right, there's a difference between and sometimes people come in and say I don't want to be pitied, right, and so pity looks very different than holding pain, right? So someone who's experienced pain for you, right, and I'll say that to the women after a little bit of time when they can start to hear it, most likely the person is in pain for you, but as someone supporting someone through pain, we have to be super careful that it doesn't come out as pity like I never. Right.
Speaker 3Back to the tzaddikas, they were chosen for this. Not such a never right. Like sad, painful, grief, loss. They miss their baby, but not never. Right, and I'll tell you that most of the time I don't think people look at that. So I'll remind people of that.
Speaker 3You know how you convey it, right, a mother really caring for her daughter or um, I'll do this. It's a similar feel to like infertility, like I don't want to be looked at as a Nebuch, but I'll say they want for you what you want, right, and so they're in pain for your loss, right, with an infancy, with having lost their baby. So we just have to be cautious how it comes across as well. Right In supporting them and in acknowledging that you know it's really yeah, it would have been his birthday. Right In holding space for their pain, in opening it up for them.
Speaker 3Or, you know, sometimes I'll text if I know it's a yard site, or if I know it's a birthday coming up, I'll text I'm thinking about baby, you know, baby Sarla with you, I'm thinking about her. That that's it. Something very simple, like that. It's just opening it. Then she can decide. The mommy can decide if she wants to share more, but to know that I'm holding space for, you know, the baby is very comforting to a mother. One year, two years, many years, a bas mitzvah oh yeah, baby's the same time right, right.
Speaker 2I was talking to someone recently and she was telling me that her daughter is having a baby, right to show, and I said, oh, what number, number whatever? I said make up a number. I said, oh, what number? Number nine. And she said, how do you get to nine? I just just told you she has, you know, x amount of girls and X amount of boys. It's number eight. And I was like, but her twin that died, she lost a twin. And she was like, oh, yeah, I guess, and I'm thinking to myself, your daughter is thinking about that twin no-transcript, because she had one instead of two. But she, you know, she did it, whatever. So, yeah, it's something that really needs to. You know, people really need to like yeah how many?
Speaker 2kids. Do you have how many?
Speaker 3kids do you have? How many kids do you have? Right, and that that topic has come up so many times with the women I work with, with the couples like what do you want to say Once that one, you know, backing up a job? One one thing I'll say about grief, and we know this in the community there are no rules, right? I always say put your hands over your heart, what feels right to you, what feels right to you, what feels right to you, and so, as long as within their functioning range or getting up in the morning, you know I'll joke around. I'm like did your kids get out to school today? Were they dressed? Yeah, I'm like you're doing great. Did you give them some food on the way? If not, someone will give them food. We're good to go, right, there's no rules to it, and so some of these things are so individual.
Speaker 3How many kids do you have Me? What do you want to share? And who is that? Who is that random? I don't know you. Maybe I'm only going to say my five, right, but someone I feel a little more connected to, or I'm just feeling that I want to talk about slowly. Hi, I'm Sarla. I'll say yeah, and this I heard once and I love it and I hold a lot of space for this I have five on Aretz and one in Shemayim, which is a beautiful sentiment. Right, I have five here and one in Shemayim, and again, the more comfortable, the more comfortable year in one shmime, and again, the more comfortable, the more comfortable, you know. But again some people might just, but I love how you're able to point out to that mother, like your daughter's, your daughter's count is 10, not nine, right?
Speaker 2yeah, right, totally yeah anything else that they shared with you just going over here.
Speaker 3Oh, you know, I think, what they said, like post the shiva or post the loss, like you know, the texts or the condolence cards were appreciated, you know, right, like I'm thinking about you or I know you've gone through a lot, I love. I love also when someone can acknowledge later on, right, not just acknowledge about the baby but do something for that, right, I think Glenn spoke about this like post Shiva, I got your carpools right, I'm going to take care of dinner for you. Right, women, like, don't forget also, depending on when the loss was, this is also a mother who is postpartum, right. So coming home from a hospital if the baby had died in the hospital without a baby is so, so painful. But she's also a postpartum woman, right, having gone through, maybe recently or maybe a week or two ago, labor and delivery. Right, and she needs to be taken care of, right, she needs that. She needs the same kempeter time, right, and the care for that others need.
The Shiva Dilemma: Mourning Without Ritual
Speaker 3And even after that, right, you know, know, a month later, to call a friend and say do you want to go out for lunch? My treat, send her, um, you know, a spa package me, just things like that. And to the couple as well. We can get to our husbands and wives and I think you brought the question but then we tabled it, but I want to just also say on this what you're saying, that it's funny because I was just rereading the book.
Speaker 2You know the part that I wrote for the friends. Um, you know, a woman could feel like it's very important how you say it. If you say, are you going through such a hard time? What could I do for you? Or could I go to the store for you, they might be like, no, I'm good. But if you say very like targeted, I'm in the store now I do need bread or cheese, they might say, oh, I don't need bread or cheese, but I really need cream cheese. Or you know, I'm gonna be in the neighborhood anyways, I know tuesday's your carpool day. Can I do it for you this week? Like that comes across as like oh well, thank you no, no, pity, right, right, and that's yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3One other thing that I see wrote down was, you know, kind of back to that loss is not contagious, that if a woman is opening up or if a couple is talking about their baby, go with it, stay with it, stay with them and not try to. You know, one of the women's like I learned, it's not so socially appropriate to talk about dead babies, right, like that's so sad, right, why, right. And then you know they talk about the, the humor, and you know um in it. But but why not? Why can't we socially appropriately talk about a baby that has died? Why not? Why can't we give space to that baby?
Speaker 3totally, totally so you would ask about shalm bias.
Speaker 2Repeat the question, just so I I asked you really how this affects shalm bias, both for good and for bad. But really, what I really want to say is what happens if, like one of the spouses, are an addict.
Speaker 3I think if that's ever happened, you're just like collided my specialties together.
Speaker 2I'm sure it's happened.
Speaker 3Unfortunately, there's a lot of addiction.
Speaker 3Yeah, or the loss leads to addiction, like they become, you know, find their coping mechanism. Um, how affects shun bias. So I I really think it can go either way, right, we see, and I can't give a percentage to it we see both. We see couples that can fall apart, crumble because of a loss, through a loss, and we see couples that become stronger and more bonded. And when I do work with couples, I'll have to educate them a lot on the differences between male and female, between husband wife, that your grief is going to look great, no rules here. Your grief will look very different than her grief and his grief will look very different. And what his coping mechanism of you know, I'm going out to play basketball.
Speaker 3She may need to just sit on the couch and be helped, right, I'm getting stereotypical with men and women, but it could be totally flipped that the male also is just needs that space, and I have a few really excellent male colleagues who specialize in just seeing her husband and supporting the husband. You need just as much support, right, in different ways. And so the same to the thing, to that like guy's best friend. Hey, how you doing? You want to talk, we want to go get you know something to drink, right. So finding space for, for you know, educating the couple and supporting the couple to support each other, right, and this kind of goes back to and I always say this is couples therapy. Anyways, like they won't know what you need.
Speaker 3No one is a mind reader, right. And so I will have to clearly say to you right, I really want to talk about our baby now. Right, I really want to just sit on the couch right now. I really just, I need to go to bed, I need to shut down. Can you take care of everything else? Right. And if we can't, you know, I'll tell the woman, like, if you don't communicate it, no one will know. You know even me as a therapist, I'll invite them in and say I'm not going to get everything right. So if I don't get it right, like you got to tell me also if I'm missing something or if there's something that's going on that you want me to know.
Speaker 2And what happens if one of the spouses really want to talk about the baby and the other spouse just can't? It's too painful for them.
Speaker 3Right. So then I'll encourage like sometimes not everything is for the spouse Could be that that's what friends are for, that's what a therapist is for, that's what a rub is for, right, and so when we give that to the couples early on in the process, they'll be able to navigate it a little smoother right, just a little bit, with a little bit less tension in what is already very painful space that we could say maybe she doesn't want to talk about it. Do you have a rough to your best friend? Maybe your brother could just go schmooze with them, right's?
Speaker 2you know, sometimes it's like they just need to be, have the ideas introduced to them and then they're like, so open to it, like, oh, okay, yeah me like really they don't say but this is my spouse, I went through the loss together with him or her, so I want that person to be the one to talk to me that's what they'll start with.
Speaker 3but then, once they got this, and it's really education how different each one is and how they each to different needs, and that's okay and let's honor that space, and they may come back a different time and be able to hold it, but that's really okay, right, and there's nothing wrong with each other. That that's what their response is Right. Wow, each other. That that's what their response is right. Well, like, how many rebbeim are holding, holding their talmud, holding their constituents through, through a?
Speaker 2loss. There's a lot. I spoke to a mother that lost a child, an older son, not a baby, and her husband couldn't talk about it and at first it was hard for her, like she had had a hard time, like if they were talking together to someone else and someone you know brought up her son's name, he would change his name, just walk out of the room, whatever it was, and it was hard. He's a very hushed up person and eventually, as time went on, his I guess Talmidim or maybe he them, and his wife said to me it's all because of me. Like I had to really like teach him how to support me or how I'm supporting him, and it was very interesting how he became so good at doing what he does from not even doing it the real way with his wife, you know, right, yeah, so, yeah, um, I wanted to ask you something. Yeah, could we talk about, um, if, let's say, someone has fertility issues and then they go through this kind of loss?
Speaker 3Yeah, yeah, the loss is loss. So we can't I don't I don't love to put them on like gauging things but a loss after fertility treatment. So someone goes through ivf, you know they have their um embryos freezing, right, and some have a few and some have many, and then they experience a loss and it's rough, right. So again, not comparing losses. You're still losing a baby, right, there is there's a shattering to it because, don't forget, they were also in my office going through all the infertility, right. So it's really, really there's. There's more of a maybe I want to use the word devastation that comes with it rather than you know, again, I don't love it.
Speaker 2Is it feeling a little bit like hopeless, that my dream is never going to materialize? Like other mothers that have had babies know that they could still have their dreams.
How Loss Affects Marriages
Speaker 3Yes, so not only did I, could I not get pregnant on my own right? Did this not work normally the way the regular people do? I also can't even. My baby can't even live Right. There's a lot I know, I know, I know it's, it's, it's yes, yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah, and the kinds of empathy and support that they need from their spouse and their family. I guess it's really the same. They have to explain what they need, their spouse and their family. I guess it's really the same. They have to explain what they need.
Speaker 3Yeah, and that's it. Yeah, it's. You know, the hopelessness I think in in in many areas can get very like deep and hard. You know, and helping a couple and supporting a woman through, you know again, lack of better word of acceptance that this is right now, but we don't know. Right, and then that's, I think, the hardest part.
Speaker 3I explain um our lives as chapter books. So, whatever age you're in, you're, let's say, a young girl comes and she's 25, right, so you're in chapter 25. And chapter 22 to 25 was all this infertility treatment and testing and this. And then at 25, this happens, right, this, you were pregnant and then you had this loss. I said we don't know what chapter 27 and 30 is going to look like. Right, it's very hard and unsettling that we don't, we can't. Sometimes I'm always like I just wish I had that glass ball. Right, it's very hard and unsettling that we don't, we can't. Sometimes I'm always like I just wish I had that glass ball. Right, like I wish glass ball. Phone call with God, like hey, could you just give me a sneak preview. And they think, miriam, like we're kind of living in those times now. Right, like, talk just about the loss that's going on with cholesterol, like just holding space for the VBAS family, like there's tremendous loss right now, right, and we don't know. We don't know what just two months from now will look like, right, we don't know what next year will look like. And that, I think, is a hard place, while sitting in pain, to go through.
Speaker 3And many people in different areas right, and I have to stay in my lane but knowing that we're from Yidden have to find the source of how do I find that hope right? Where do I look for it? Who do I get it from? And different people have different avenues of that. The support calls, maybe they are continuously meaning, right, and this isn't something we would say to them, but this is something they would maybe come to like. Maybe they want to actively be working on their Amuna, right, whether it's through learning a safer, whether it's through calls, whether it's through just sitting, you know, with a rub and finding the hope right, finding, you know, even before the hope we talk about finding meaning right, and I mean there's nothing like finding meaning in the organization of Mayreem, right? What do I do with this loss? And I start an organization, then I support others, then I counsel others. Every single person who has gone through experience will then go finding I heard something so beautiful One woman who lost her baby.
Speaker 3She started a baby, a briskamach. One woman started A briskamach. There's no li'il nishmas for right, they don't need their nisham was pure. So it's the least time again, I'm not the rough, but that's the general idea that we've shared and so they don't need the li'ilu nishmas. But that mommy wants to do something and it's so beautiful. One opens a brisk gamach and one opens. We talk about what did you do with some of the clothing? Let's say this baby lived. She went and she made a gamach with all the clothing she had received of her baby that lived six months. Wow, wow. That's so huge that people can then find meaning do something right, make an organization and we don't have to go jump to organizations. That's big, right, right, but not everyone is Glenn and Suggies.
Speaker 2And we don't even have to go to making a gemach. It could be something simple saying an extra parak of tehillim every day, or saying I'm saying this, bracha, I'm going to have in mind my baby.
Speaker 3Yeah, I love women who we've talked about. What do you do on the birthday? What do you do on the birthday? And a lot of women have done with their other kids. They have other kids. They've done brachos parties. We're going to do a bracha party. On Shabbos, they'll do a bracha party, different things that women find, because not having that real initialist part I think is a hard piece, because how do I hold on and how do I make space and how do I continue? And so these small little things, right, taking on something on themselves is.
Speaker 3I recently had a relative, um, very special woman, um, um, esther Rosenbaum. She was in in in Lakewood. She's a mental passed away and at the Shiva she was. She was older but she was sick At the Shiva. Her daughters were telling me that 11 years ago, when she got sick, she took on to light candles early and I was impressed and it's always something you hear about, light candles early and I'm like, not me, and just that Shabbos. I decided, you know what, just for Esther, I'm going to light candles early this week and I've done it for three weeks now. I don't know if it's going to stick, but it helps me hold space for her. But for Bibi there's different. You know, ask your mom about lighting another candle.
Speaker 3Some do, some don't right, there's different different different ideas, but I think when the hope comes in, when you find something or somewhere to you know, really channel right, Channel that love, channel that loss into something right Channel that love, channel that loss into something.
Speaker 2And I also want to say, for those mothers that don't like hearing, that they don't need an Aaliyah as a baby. I don't even know what age you were referring to, but it doesn't matter because for my book, the sack that I got was actually yeah, they could always use an Aaliyah, no matter what, and he explains it a little bit. I'm not going to go into it because it's like very deep for me, but if mothers like want to, going to go into because it's like very deep for me, yeah, um, but if mothers like wanna, you know again, ask your own love, but there's you know every, every way, right, so right.
Speaker 2I mean listen, we, we can continuously do all the time like that's not a right, right, right there's no harm, but I think, you know, according to my staff, it could still help the baby, even if the baby was five minutes old. Ok, ok.
Finding Meaning After Loss
Speaker 3But again, I think you know, just kind of dipping into this for a minute, the halakhic aspects, what's halakha and what's recommended, and it will always turn it back. You know, you know, get some clarity on that. You know, you know, get some clarity on that right. Working with a woman this week that said, oh, I'm not allowed to talk about the baby, and I talked to the baby, I'm sorry, talk to the baby, oh, okay. And so I said just get some clarity on what that means. Talk to the baby or dive into the right. Like you know, you can't dive into the person that's dead, but we ask them to be a militia, like all those things. When women say it, I just want to make sure they have clarity on it and it feels good for them and comfortable and deciphering like I'll always support women and just decipher what's halacha versus recommended, what you want to do. And that's where the like not a lot of rules come in. Like, not a lot of rules come in.
Speaker 3There's not a lot of rules right.
Speaker 2Wow, okay. So before we end, I want to ask you if there's anything that we, you know, didn't cover. But I just want to share this with you because I think you might like it. I don't know, for me it like made a lot of sense. I was listening to. It was actually in a Muna Shira or whatever, but the speaker was saying he was quoting I think it was a Gaish author even, I don't know. But about back to the empathy, you know, like don't say like oh, how are you, how are you doing? But like how are you today? And I felt like that one word just changes the whole tone and the whole like meaning of the sentence. So I think that's like I don't know. That touched me. I wanted to share that.
Speaker 3Yeah, and I love that because lately I've been having this conversation with several different people, the how are you? And like great, what do you? Like Good, like, in all honesty, I'm having a hard day, right, so I love that. That like how are you doing today is so targeted. One thing I would add like the women said, like I do think, like you know, I've asked many times like what has brought you comfort? And I think that what has brought you comfort, you know what's brought you comfort? And I think the idea that they know again, not initially this is hard for anyone to hear in the moments, right, but within, with time, right, and although it's the worst saying it's actually true, time heals. Right, there's a healing process and again, it ebbs and flows like acceptance. It ebbs and flows like a moonwalk, but time does.
Speaker 3So when I have a woman on the call who's like some people get on the call one week post the loss and then there'll be other women on the call that will just be able to say you won't feel like this in six months, you won't right now feel it. You're going to feel it, but the idea of I can't go on, I don't know how I'm going to manage, how can I live are very raw, you know, right away feelings. And then that time and what everyone has to do during that grief and that mourning period period. It keeps going right. We know that about it. There's no end to it. It's going to come right. It's when it's going to come. It's important for those you know no end to it. It's going to come right when it's going to come.
Speaker 3Um, it's important for those you know for, for us to know, and the piece that gives a lot of women comfort is, you know, that idea and again, staying. You know, this is this is out of my lane, but just from sharing from from many of the women that I've worked with, that, the idea when they can really, you know, accept the idea of that this baby's tikkun purpose was only for this amount of time, right, and my purpose was to be this baby's mother for this amount of time, from seconds to hours, to months, right, that's like a big you know of all the things I've heard of reasons, because there's, I want to know why. There is that piece of like, wanting to know why, and this I think is one of the biggest parts that like holds a little space for that question.
Speaker 2But I just want to add also that these two things that you just mentioned, you know that it won't be like this forever and you will feel better. And you just said about the why. Um, it could only come from someone that went through it, and I think that's very important.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah, okay, amazing. So thank you so so much for coming on. Thank you for having me. You have come across as a very empathetic and I think whoever listens to this is going to like it. Okay, amazing. So thank you so so much for coming on. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3You, I come across as very empathetic and I think whoever listens to this is going to like it. So thank you so much. Thank you, I appreciate you having me.
Speaker 1You've just listened to an episode of the Relief from Grief podcast with Miriam Riviat, brought to you by Mayrim. For more episodes, visit the Mayrim website at wwwmayrimorg. Help us reach more people who might benefit from this podcast. If you know someone who could find it helpful, please share it with them. If you have questions or comments for the speaker, or if you'd like to suggest a guest for the podcast, we'd love to hear from you. Email us at relieffromgrief at mayrimorg. We look forward to having you join us in the next episode.