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The Grief Journey By Mayrim
When I launched Relief from Grief in 2022, I thought it would be a short-term project. But the feedback was overwhelming:
•Grievers found inspiration and comfort.
•Listeners who hadn’t experienced loss gained meaningful insights into grief.
•Professionals shared how valuable the podcast was for their clients.
I realized this podcast was meeting a deep, ongoing need — and I was determined to continue serving that need.
I’m honored to partner with Mayrim, an organization dedicated to supporting families who have lost a child. Mayrim is the perfect partner because its founders and members understand the pain of loss firsthand. It’s my hope that each guest shares encouragement and understanding, helping listeners feel less alone. Together, we can find hope and comfort — one moment at a time.
The Grief Journey By Mayrim
Yaffa Dyckman, LCSW: Recognizing Life’s Optical Illusion
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
The morning after her baby passed away, Yaffa looked out the window and saw the sun shining. She couldn’t understand how the sun can shine when there was an empty crib in her home and baby clothes that would never be worn again.
With time and a lot of inner work, she and her husband came to a new perspective. Yaffa describes life as an optical illusion: when you focus on only one part of the picture, it can hurt unbearably. But when you pull back and the picture shifts you can see something greater at play. Instead of feeling that they “lost” their son, they came to realize that they had gained 14 precious months with him. As Yaffa says, it is better to have had him for that time than for him never to have been born.
Today, Yaffa is an LCSW who works extensively with clients on their trauma. She shares with us how trauma affects the body and mind—and how recognizing when you’re “stuck” can be the first step toward healing. With the right communication skills and openness to accept help or support from organizations, people can move forward in ways they never imagined.
Yaffa misses her baby, who would be around 22 years old today. She feels the pain at times, but she doesn’t allow herself to stay stuck there. Instead, she chooses to look for faith and continue forward, finding the light in life even through loss.
YouTube: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsK24OSmIYG_XWzeplhfmb8LJcWKphITh&si=untn3fmHLLaEEFNm
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/relief-from-grief-by-mayrim/id1788349916
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3AvWNp0DrHqE5AVYJHooiK?si=ufpIObuGRumS5uFXmvrpgA
Questions or feedback? Email me at: podcast@mayrim.org
Introduction to Mayrim and the Podcast
Speaker 1Welcome to the Grief Journey Podcast, hosted by Mrs Miriam Ribiat and brought to you by Merim. Merim is an organization dedicated to supporting families who have experienced the loss of a child. It was founded by Eloi Nishmas, nechama Liba and Miriam Holman. Despite her illness, miriam devoted herself to addressing the needs of parents and siblings grappling with the immense pain of losing a child. She felt this loss deeply, having experienced it firsthand when her older sister, nahama Liba, passed away. Merim continues to uplift and expand on the work Miriam began, a mission carried forward by her parents with great dedication. If you have any questions or comments for the speaker, or if you'd like to suggest a guest for the podcast, please email us at relieffromgriefatmayrimorg.
Speaker 2Everybody, thank you so much for joining me here today on the Grief Journey by Mayrim podcast. Everybody, thank you so much for joining me here today on the Grief Journey by Maven podcast. And today I'm very excited to introduce to you Mrs Yaffa Dykman, who is an LCSW.
Speaker 3Thank you so so much for coming on my pleasure and thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2Yes, I'm very excited. I know we spoke a lot, but I'm excited to finally happen. Okay, so I guess, how about if we start with you telling us what you do and who you typically work with, and all about that?
Speaker 3Absolutely so. As you mentioned, I'm a licensed clinical social worker psychotherapist. I work both one day a week in person in Brooklyn, and otherwise I'm online. I treat adults, and so part of my work is with people locally and part of my work is working with Americans living overseas expats living in all parts of the world. I do that work with a group called a group practice, called the Truman Group, and one other part of my work is I work with US military, both those in active duty and veterans, through an organization called Headstrong.
Speaker 2Wow, that's interesting, no.
Speaker 3Absolutely. I enjoy it very much.
Understanding EMDR and Psychodynamic Therapy
Speaker 2Yeah, that sounds very interesting. Okay, so you specialize in AMDR and psychodynamic therapy, but I guess I'm not really sure what these therapies are, how they work. Maybe you could explain that.
Speaker 3Sure, if you don't mind my sharing, you know, the way I got to those therapies is when I graduated. I finished graduate school and I was really looking to develop my clinical skills because I felt like there was more I needed to know, wanted to know really in that kind of work, and so I turned to my graduate school. I heard they had a program in couples therapy and I was thinking about really that area of specialty and so I reached out to the director of the program and he told me about it and he also told me that the program took place on Saturday, chavez. So I decided obviously I wasn't going to do that and so I. But I asked him if he had any other recommendations and he told me about a program called the Training Institute for Mental Health, which is an institute located in the city and they had a two-year fellowship program, certification in couple therapy, and it's oriented toward more psychodynamic work and I really took to that kind of work. I also had instructors, supervisors, that I really learned a lot from and continued to learn from post my graduation from that program.
Speaker 3Psychodynamic work is a lot about dealing with, working with the subconscious, getting to know ourselves better on a deeper level. You know, understanding why we do what we do, which gives us a lot more agency in our lives and allows us to really get to decide more consciously. You know what we want to do and I'm really drawn to the deeper work and understanding things better and people better, helping people understand themselves better, and so this really really spoke to me and so that's really a big part of how I work. It also, just to add to that, it also looks a lot at relationships and how early relationships are and how that other later relationships develop out. You know as a result of what early relationships look like. That's what we call object relations. So that's also a part of the work I do, and you know I work with clients. As I mentioned in the beginning, I work with things like anxiety, depression, ptsd, post-traumatic stress disorder and also things like grief and relationship issues, because those are, you know, those sort of things can come also hand in hand, so it's not necessarily one exclusive of the others. So that's where you know the relationship piece comes in, that I do that kind of work. I do a little bit of some of my work as couples, but a lot of my work is individual, and so because I was seeing more individuals in clinic setting where I was working before I went into private practice, I really I noticed I was doing a lot more work with trauma Early childhood, you know, abuse, sexual abuse, different difficulties in childhood and which I was really inclined towards working in that way and I realized I really wanted to also strengthen my ability to work with trauma.
Speaker 3And so that's when I heard about EMDR and EMDR, which stands for eye movement, desensitization and reprocessing, so that was the therapy I trained in and I became certified in it and I apply it, of course, working with people with trauma. But it's you know, just you know. I should explain a little bit about it, a little more about what that approach is. Does that would that interest people, perhaps? So yeah, so EMDR, which I believe was discovered by Franzi and Shapiro in the 1980s, was really an approach that originally was about rapid eye movement and this idea that when we sleep and our eyes go back and forth and ram, we are able to process through things, resolve things from our day.
Speaker 3It's since developed into what we do is also something called bilateral stimulation, which is tapping, and there are many ways that people do this kind of work. But the idea was is that we can sometimes get stuck when we experience a trauma, and EMDR is able to help people move beyond that place of stuckness and access more of their adaptive thinking, and so it's really a quicker-moving it can really it's very versatile. So, even though it originally started as a trauma-based therapy, now we were using it with anxiety, ocd, depression, phobias, general, or just mindsets or ways that people think about themselves and the world that we can sort of what does that mean when you say to access more of their adaptive thinking?
Speaker 2What's adaptive thinking?
Speaker 3So when you're in a space of trauma, you're going to go into fight, flight freeze. There's also fawn mode, so you're really operating from a place of a danger versus from your cognitive thinking part of your brain. And so when we access both parts of the brain we're able to give ourselves that way of also thinking about things. So it's ability to kind of tap into both and not just live from a place of, you know, I'm in danger because people with PTSD it's like they're you know it's hypervigilance and they're feeling a lot of I'm still in that space of danger, as if the fire alarms are going off but there's no fire.
Speaker 2So then, how do you decide if someone needs more EMDR or more psychodynamic therapy?
Speaker 3So really good question and they get weaved together. And what I really appreciate about the training that I did was that there was that idea of like EMDR is not the solution for everybody, for everything, but rather one thing we can use in that in a way to help people. And so I really look at what the client is bringing up and, based on what I'm noticing and seeing, I will introduce EMDR, I will bring in psychodynamic therapy, because psychodynamic therapy is very thorough. I'm looking at also what is the person representing, how the person is presenting themselves, and of course that enters into a space of somatic therapy which I have not trained in yet. But so you know, it really depends on what the client is bringing up. And I do. I use both together usually. But EMDR when I'm doing it I can use it like sort of straight EMDR, but there are times where you know I want to be able to use also psychodynamic therapy.
Speaker 2So it's really seeing where the client is at and seeing what their needs are in that moment. Do you tell them what you're doing or it's not the type of thing that they have to know?
Yaffa's Personal Story of Loss
Speaker 3You just feel you go with the flow. I think it's so important, especially for trauma clients, to really, you know, be in charge of that for themselves. So I will say you know, I have a therapy and that's the outset of our sessions. Here's some of the things that I do to help people in situations that you are, you know, things you've experienced. So, yeah, I very much inform them. I won't tell them I'm doing psychodynamic therapy now, but EMDR is a little different. So I want people to feel comfortable you know and understand what it is and also say consent and say I'm good with that, I'm not good with that. It's up to them. They need to be in charge and they need to be in control, because oftentimes trauma comes with losing that part, losing control.
Speaker 2Right, wow, okay, so let me ask you like this from well, okay, we didn't really talk about your story at all. You mind sharing a little bit about your own personal loss?
Speaker 3Absolutely. Yeah, you know I'm thinking control. As I say it, I'm like that sort of came into my reference of mine. So I was in graduate school. I had two young children about three and six years old a little younger at that time and I had then had a third child. A third son was born and as I was doing my work and parenting all at the same time being a spouse this was everything was developing quite normally. Everything was developing quite normally, and so was my son until he was five months old.
Speaker 3And at five months old he stopped eating, he stopped sleeping, he would be up all night crying and I realized something was wrong with him and I went repeatedly to the pediatrician and I would say to them something's wrong with my son. I don't know what it is, but please, you know, we figure this out. And each time I would be there five, ten minutes, whatever it was, he'd be sitting there quietly, calmly, like everything was fine, and I would get sent home. We don't see anything, he's fine. Until one day my mother was visiting our home and she was holding him and she noticed like something on the side. She felt like a bump on his side. So we had not felt it before. But I went right back to the doctor and I said there's something here and the doctor said you should take him for a sonogram.
Speaker 3So we went off to the hospital and did the sonogram and they basically told us that he had a tumor and that basically he had one of three possible kinds of tumors. It's a kidney tumor and the first one would be was Wilms, which is supposedly more common in children, if there's a kidney tumor, and highly treatable. The second possibility is something called clear cell sarcoma which is a little harder to treat I don't know about now because this was over 20 years ago and the third one was something called rhabdoid tumor of the kidney which is extremely rare. I was just looking up the statistics one in a million, something in the millions, less than 100 diagnosed in America and the United States in a year. Really rare and really aggressive, very hard to treat and even if one gets treated for it and succeeds at that, it could also, if they relapse, it's, it's, there's not much to be done.
Speaker 3So we had those three possibilities sitting with us at the time. You know it was obviously devastating but but hopeful, because he's by his wombs and we'll. We'll get through this Um, but the, the prognosis, they. They gave us the diagnosis and they told us that he had rhabdoid. That's the third kind. The third kind, the rare and aggressive kidney tumor, the worst you'd want to have.
Speaker 2Like mamish from one minute to the next. Yeah, like he was just turned upside down.
Speaker 3Absolutely, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2Wow, so he went through treatment anyways, I guess.
Speaker 3At that point. So the good thing was that we were questioning where should we treat him? Do we take him to another hospital, another state, and we have two young children at home? We really didn't want to, but the doctor who was going to treat him was discussing protocol, with consulting with other doctors who would treat this, and she also had successfully treated one out of a set of twins with this diagnosis. So there was like some hope there, um for us with our son's case. His, his tumor had grown so much that it was pushing on his lungs and his breathing was compromised at that point already, and what they had to do is they had to first shrink the tumor, remove the tumor, and then they basically did chemo, they did radiation and they did something called an autologous stem cell transplant Whoa, to try to. They were going to be as aggressive as they could be with it because of the aggressiveness of the tumor.
Speaker 2Wow, Wow. And then he was 14 months when he was lifted.
Speaker 3you said yeah, I mean, you know, obviously we were hopeful, you know we really believed that any point, you know, things can turn around, everything could to be better, but we, we brought him home and then he relapsed. He went back, he had he was behaving a little bit oddly and I brought him back and found out that he had that he was, you know, sick and they told us basically take him to hospice, there's nothing we can do. But interesting thing is that when he was in hospital in his last few weeks of his life, spotted in the hospital a professor of mine who had been in graduate school, who actually was a hospice. He taught about hospice and I saw him and I went over to him, I told him my story and he said you'd love to come see my son and he did.
Speaker 3And I remember asking him like, can kids or people come out of hospice? At that point he's like, yeah, can, can kids or people come out of hospice? At that point he's like, yeah, it actually it happens. And so, like you get the renewed hope you know, sometimes you're like, okay, this, you know things will get better, um, things will be okay. And so, um, but that wasn't, it wasn't what it was going to be Um so a few weeks later.
Speaker 2Is it true that people come out of hospice? I mean if someone's getting treated. I mean if someone's getting treated hospice won't even accept them.
Speaker 3Maybe, I'm sorry, maybe.
Speaker 2Maybe it changed, maybe it's different.
Speaker 3Yeah, I don't know. I guess someone's life health can turn around, so you know. That's why you know we never gave up. We did everything that was recommended to us, whether it was medical, whether it was, you know, spiritual, like we just went with. We were going to fight this to the last and we did. And so you know he survived for 14 months.
Speaker 2Wow, wow, I can't even imagine, I don't know, that baby For the listeners. I saw a picture of that baby. He's a precious little looking, you know, adorable baby. So I don't even I think it's. I don't know, I don't know what to say. I know that you have a very powerful message of Amuna, so maybe we could talk about that. Yeah, I guess also the question a little bit would be is like if you think that message looks different for someone newly bereaved and someone that's been grieving for many years.
Faith Journey Through Grief
Speaker 3Right, and if you don't mind to take a step back from that, because I think faith looks different before you go through something like this. Faith looks different while you go through something like this, and faith looks different after you go through something like this. And um, and I think you know it comes to my mind and recently I was thinking about this is that when you're in the ouch moment and we know those feelings sometimes it just means getting your foot into a bed. I don't know if you've ever had that experience where you're just banging against metal and you're like, ah, those moments, like you just you know, you're just caught up in the pain and I think it's shaky. It gets shaken while we're in these, go through these things, and then not only while we're in them, but after we're in them.
Speaker 3And so I'll remember, particularly for me and I think this is probably true for a lot of people, if not all people that first year post loss was such a hard one, emotionally and also religiously.
Speaker 3I mean, I didn't stop believing. I don't think that I stopped practicing what I do, but I certainly it was harder to find that support and that strength, even though there were moments where, like it was quite clear in there, but there were also moments I was like why did you do this to me? Like why in the world would you want something like this to happen, and why a child and all the things that make so much sense when you're in that, in that pain. So my message and what I believe now came with time and in different, in different ways that you know that allow me now to um, to be in a different place with it. Um. So for those people who are like, hey, you know, you know I I didn't come out and like, yeah, god, you did this is fine, I can accept it, it's your will Like that was a journey to be able to like come out and be perhaps stronger. I believe today I'm a stronger person in that, stronger in different ways, but it wasn't, it didn't come right away.
Speaker 2And I think that for any bereaved parents listening to this, it's very important to hear that that the relationship with Hashem is going to change. And even if you have a relationship with Hashem right now that's such a like more painful relationship, it doesn't mean that they're going to be in that pain forever.
Speaker 3Absolutely. And what's so key and core here is how we go about the healing. And you know I'm going to just reference the work I do. In fact, just thinking about work I was doing just this morning, you know, one of the things I learned about PTSD and this was, you know, I trained in another therapy I didn't mention, called STARIN-ST, which stands for skills, training and effective and interpersonal regulation, narrative storytelling. A whole bunch of words that might not mean anything to people but, and also to therapists like three out of four therapists I mentioned to, they don't know what it is. Wow, yeah, it was on the VA website and for a while it may still be.
Speaker 3And it's. I think it's similar to TF-CBT trauma-focused cognitive behavioral therapy which is more, I think, geared towards children. I work with children so I don't use that modality, but it's basically a two-part therapy, combining both cognitive behavioral therapy and attachment theory, which is what I like about it because it works both levels, like more the CBT, maybe more oriented to the present, you know, helping us feel better in the moment, and then also oriented towards the past, attachment, earlier relationships. And so why do I mention stearantestes? Because when I learned about it, one of the things they talk about is that PTSD and post-trauma symptoms will come more likely when people don't have the support they talk about is that PTSD and post-trauma symptoms will come more likely when people don't have the support they need when they go through something. And so I'm just again referencing someone I was speaking to. You know, in a therapy setting, where this is you know how much so especially, we talk about children who are physically abused.
Speaker 3The message sometimes given to them is it was your fault, you made a mistake. You know. Given to them is it was your fault, you made a mistake, you know you were wrong, whatever it is, and that makes it that much harder for us to step out of those situations and heal from it, versus if we have people around us throughout the process. When we come to that point, we want to share it or post the experience that saved us, that was awful, that was a horrible thing you went through, and whatever words they use.
Speaker 3So I think that what's important for people, listeners and people to realize is how important we have to find those people and have that community and the family, of course, if we can have it. You know, fortunately I had support from family, from neighbors, from community, from organizations you know you have, you need that behind us. If we can't, we don't have it. Find it Wonderful organizations like Mayrim you know there are quite a few more that will be there and they may not take away the pain but they certainly make it more manageable and tolerable. Carry you through.
Speaker 2So let me ask you like this, because it's true that it's important to find it, but some people might have it and just don't know how to communicate their needs, so they feel like they're not being supported, when really, if they would be in a place where they could say this is what I need, it would make such a difference A hundred percent.
Speaker 3I think one of the challenges also for those of us in these situations is we don't want to take of. The challenges also for those of us in these situations is we don't want to take. Some of us I might say women more than men, possibly, but I'm not going to say for sure, I haven't studied this Maybe people who are of Jewish faith, of other faiths. We're givers, we're a community of givers, and for those that come from that place, there may be psychological reasons as well. I'm not going to say that that doesn't occur as well, but I'm saying we may come from a place of I can't take, I need to give, and it's such a struggle.
Speaker 3I will tell you, and I'm grateful for one of those people who showed up in my life through an organization and sent me this thing I have it somewhere right up of why it's okay to take in these situations. I haven't forgotten it because it really kind of took me over that hump, but it's what we have to do. So, yeah, it's hard to communicate. Well, if that's a pattern for you, you might want to look at that, maybe even with a therapist. It doesn't have to be, but you know. So if we have a hard time asking for what we want, we need to figure out that. We also have to understand that this is our time, where we're giving others the opportunity to get and sometimes giving others the opportunity to get that sometimes we can allow others to be in that role because that's important, maybe for them and maybe for us.
Speaker 2This is what we need to be doing, Right. I like that point that maybe it's important for them because maybe also like if they're close enough to they're also struggling with the loss but they don't quite know what to do with it, and this gives them an opportunity to do something with their own pain that isn't as severe as the actual bereaved parent.
Speaker 3Right and we don't even realize how valuable it becomes, Like those things that people do for you, even though you hesitate and you resist it again, make so much of a difference, and how we get through the meals that people make, the babysitting that they do, you know, the carpooling, the different ways that people can step up. That is a win-win because you get what you need because you have no other choice. You can't do it all and you also give an opportunity for someone else to feel like I'm doing something to this person and I know that's really important for them.
Speaker 2And I care about that. Right right, wow. So was there any um like specific pastime or to feel, or something that like helped you during this time?
Finding Support and Meaning
Speaker 3So during the, the, the illness, versus during after, is it okay if I share on both ends? Yes, please, okay. So I think what was was very helpful I don't want to say most because I'm not sure, I haven't measured but what was very helpful for me and has been in my life through challenging times is music, and I'm sure that I'm like the first person on the planet to say that. Not really, I think that you know it sort of lifts me, lifts my soul, it's just something about it. It became like again one of those like flotation devices, something I could hold on to. So that was very helpful. Obviously, tehillim, psalms, things like that can really do a lot. Sometimes it's not, sometimes you're like I can't, you know, and sometimes it's just Ryan. So that's okay, to sometimes want that and sometimes not want that. I think that's really also, at least for me. I think that's a really natural thing in these types of moments. So music was really powerful and helpful. I think afterwards it was more about mindset and the ideas and thoughts that helped me see my experience differently.
Speaker 3I think one of the things that a lot of people can be challenged by and I think it makes a lot of sense, is thinking about their child in. Oh now he's one years old. He would have been one, he would have been 13. He would have been graduating from high school. I don't look at, I don't think about that, and not because I'm, you know, shining my face away from it, but because I think of each one of us. We don't have the same expiration date. We all come into this world and leave at different points in times, and I think what's what I?
Speaker 3One of the ways that I look at this experience, is that we have a mission and that we do that mission, and that's really what we're. You know how I look at, you know the world, and so I mean, I think that's consistent with Torah, with Jewish concepts, I imagine that's consistent with other religions. And I think about could you imagine if someone knocked on your door today and said to you really secretly I have something you can only do and I have going to give you all the you're on a mission. You have something important to do in this world, accomplish, and I'm going to give you all the tools you need to do it and the challenges that are going to come with it.
Speaker 3I mean, you know, I don't want to reference. I'm not sure referencing. You know there are movies and shows and talking about missions and how important that person can feel and things like that. But you're the only one who can do this and you're gonna get those things and I look at it as that. I don't look at it as my son. He died early. You know it's a tragedy. I look at it as he's came for a purpose and he did his purpose and both myself and my husband look at it as we didn't lose all those years of his life.
Speaker 2We gained 14 months with a child, a special child, because it's better to have those 14 months with him than not have had him at all?
Speaker 3Right, I mean, there's a what a phrase? Is it better to lose love and lose? You know, of course we don't want the 14 months. Of course we want a longer marriage. Of course we want our kids to be around.
Speaker 2Of course we want our parents, our siblings, all that, wow, wow. That's very special. It's very special to like have that attitude for all these years.
Speaker 3And it's time, meaning I didn't have that and wake up with it. The day after my son passed. I wake up to see an empty crib and clothing that was never going to be worn by him again. So it's time. There is so much and a sun that's shining that shouldn't be shining because our world's falling apart, but it's time and it's going out there and reading things and speaking to people and taking in information.
Speaker 3I think how we look at things is really how we can exist and feel in the world. And I'll add there's a picture I saw and I've mentioned this to a number of people over the years. It was a painting and I don't know where it is because I'd take a photo of it and put it on my phone right now but it was a picture of trees, lots of trees, and it was like a forest and somehow you could see little sparks of light coming through. And sometimes, when I'm going through an experience in life, I think to myself do I want to look at the trees or do I want to look at light? Because I choose what I look at, I choose how I see things in life, and that's you know, and that kind of makes a difference. And again, that's one other thinking thing. I can't I'm giving it there, because maybe somebody will say I relate to that, maybe 15 people say I don't relate to that. But there are others. There are other ways that we can pull in comfort, information that gives us support and makes it easier for us to go through life. If I don't, if you don't mind, I wanna just add one other thing to that.
Speaker 3I think sometimes I also look at life from a what is an optical illusion. There's the picture. You can see two pictures, right? Is that what it is? Optical illusion? It's been a while since I've used the term. Is that where?
Speaker 3you can see the goblets, or you can see the woman's face, right, I think that's also similarly here is that I don't look at this world as everything we see and everything is the physical stuff. Then, when you don't have a child, live longer, and you don't have the car you want and you don't have all the physical things, the milestones and physical things, you only see that one picture. The pain is so much greater. But what you recognize that this is part of something bigger and greater in a plan, and you start to if you have a faith, of course and I'm not, you know everybody's going to and then they have to find their way of thinking and seeing this. They've seen things, but then it changes for you.
Speaker 3You have this other perspective. That's like I'm part of something bigger and there's a spiritual purpose, there's a, there's a meaning to all this. It's it's like I have to do that sometimes, right, when someone hurts you, it's like that person hurt me. No, but there's something greater going on here. There's something I can focus on the person or I can focus on. You know that this is part of a bigger plan and that there's a reason I'm in this moment.
Speaker 2Wow, I think that's so nice. That's like such a good visual. I mean, for me it's such a good visual. I'm assuming, like you said before, some people might not relate to it, but something tells me a lot of people will, and so let me ask you this from your perspective, as both a professional and as someone that you know, a parent that went through a loss is there anything that you feel is like the most misunderstood thing about grief?
Speaker 3misunderstood thing about grief. It's a good, it's a really good question and it's hard to go with. See, as a therapist I'm like most because that's you know, that's a lot of you know. That kind of. It's hard for me to say you know most it's I think it would. I can think of things that do come to mind, but they're probably you know, if I thought broadly or I went back into referencing things, I might have more of an answer that's like yeah, that's this feels like it. So I'm going to say what comes to my mind at the moment.
Speaker 3I think it's something that I imagine a lot of other people will say. Sometimes it's the expectations of you know what it's going to look like. You know, and that there's a specific timeline and a specific order of loss and we know of, you know in Green's, how it's going to play out. You know Elizabeth Cooper Ross's work on that. It's like that there is such a. It can be so up and down it could be. It shows up in different ways in different people and that sometimes we have expectations of others or expectations of ourselves because we think you know, this is what it looks like. It looks like A when it can look like A, b, c, d, e, f, g, and then those can. It can look like G and then become A. So I think it's you know, that there is one way that this thing plays out.
Speaker 3It's different, for my husband and I had different experience with it. I think we're mostly on the same page and we fortunately didn't conflict about it. But I'm saying we could see it differently, we could experience it differently, and so you know, I would say, if you're five, 10 years down the line and this is still weighing deeply on you, figure that out. I mean, cause that's what I fortunately it was a year or so, and again, I don't remember exactly how much, and I feel grateful again because there were resources that I pulled into. I wasn't in the same place nearly, and today I'm, you know, a whole different place.
Speaker 3But it takes time. We're different. Someone takes two, three years Okay, that's, that's what they need. Seven, eight months, that's what they need. But if we're finding ourselves stuck somewhere, if we're finding ourselves like feeling guilty or shame, or you know something last conversations relationship was complicated we might want to get underneath it, because that's the thoughts, the beliefs that we may get stuck with, that accompany that experience that we might be able to move further from if we look a little bit closer at it.
Speaker 2I guess all that is one of the reasons why everyone's grief journey is so different, because it really does depend on what your relationship was like and what your marriage is like and if you're divorced, and if I mean there's so many, you know, ifs, ifs and ifs. So I guess that's why, besides for the actual loss, there's so many other things that are going to really make that journey.
Speaker 3Absolutely, and I'm glad you're sharing that because it certainly resonates for me.
Speaker 2And the way you say it just makes yeah, makes you know, makes it even clearer. Were there ever things?
Speaker 3that people said to you that they, like you know, meant with good intentions but they were really hurtful. You know it's interesting. I remember more the actions were difficult, um, than the words, and I know those exist and I know there are things you specifically people will say you know, especially if you're a faith, a person of faith, you know God only challenges the people who are, you know, are strong, or, um, you know, uh, are you know, are strong, or you know. They're definitely the more typical things I think we hear. I don't remember so much hearing those. I do remember ways that people try to show up. That was painful, Like, I think one thing is people.
Speaker 3I think either extreme tends to be challenging, like people just disappearing from your life. It's kind of like where are you and I know I'm going through something difficult, but I want you to be in my life still or people showing up daily and wanting to know what's happening and wanting to be there and your life is so upside down you just want to breathe. So I think being too present or being too absent is something that can really challenge us. I think, at least for myself in this kind of situation.
Speaker 2Right. I guess that's where communication also comes in, like if someone is showing up and showing up and it's too much, like you kind of have to say, because they think they're doing something good for you.
Speaker 3You're right, and it's so hard because you're feeling so hurt and the last thing you want to do is hurt somebody, and that's a whole other window of conversation for therapists is, like you know, assertiveness. How do you do? Because a lot of us don't want to say no and don't want to make people feel that, and there's a whole way that we might. What are we subconsciously thinking about when we do say no? Like our bodies might be, like I'm becoming evil, I'm becoming that mean person or someone else. So there's a lot that can be delved into over there.
Speaker 2Yeah Well, you know, guilt is the best friend of many, so I guess you know For sure. What did I want to ask you? I wanted to ask you, yeah, a lot of times you know, people will call me up and say to me so you know, my cousin, my neighbor, my so-and-so, whatever it is, just lost a child. What could I say to them?
Speaker 3So I guess I'm curious what you would answer to that if someone would ask that yeah, it's first of all so thoughtful and they want to help. I will not say there's one rule that fits for everybody, because we're used to unique individual in terms of what we need. I you know I hear this written and said a lot over time be specific. Don't just say what can I do, but say something that you know that might person might need. I'm going to bring you dinner one day, what day works for you. I'm going to help with your children. You know what can I do. So you know and I'll, and maybe you know you don't want to push on them Like you have to take my dinner on Monday night when you really don't want to eat that on Monday night.
Speaker 3So saying, but being, you know, being there and in a way that really is going to be helpful to them, being specific about what you can do, I the things that really you know struck me as people just coming to a hospital and saying you know, asking, of course you know if they can come and bringing a soup, writing a letter. Then those days it was more writing letters. Obviously, texts are much more common nowadays, but just saying those messages, just letting the person know you're there, that you care, but not being in their face, not invading their privacy. And, of course, find out who the people are who are organizing things for them, because sometimes there's key people that those people want to be in communication with, because it's easier to have two people versus 25 people reaching out, right, so maybe, hey, someone organizing this, I want to help you those sorts of things right, that's a good point to find out who, like, the main organizers are.
Speaker 2I never thought of that. Well, okay, so I guess my question I you know last, my leading off question is if someone right now is listening and they're like in the depths of grief, what would you want to leave them with? Or even if someone it's not a recent loss and they're still feel like their struggle is too much.
Speaker 3Yeah, you know, I think some of that's part of what I've shared perhaps is there, you know. I think it depends on where they are in that point. But grief is normal, grief is healthy. Unfortunately, for a very unfortunate, tragic situation, sometimes it's for an adult that lived to the 99 years old and 118, whatever it could be, it's still grief. And 118, whatever it could be, it's still grief. It's real and it's part of what we go through and it can be. We can get through it. There is going to be. It's going to reduce.
Speaker 3In the deepest moments it's going to feel like the only way and me, because this was for me, the only way I'm going to get out of this is bring that person back. I can be with my son. I'm going to get out of this is bring that person back. I can be with my son. I'm going to be okay. So it really depends on which place you are in that process, how soon after the loss is. But understand that it's a natural, normal thing.
Speaker 3Sometimes we have experiences like I don't want to go outside or I don't want to go to shul Different things, synagogue. Sometimes there are things that we're doing or thinking or feeling that might feel foreign because we've never done it before and so, understanding, figuring out, which is the natural process, versus am I stuck somewhere? And I think that might be, you know. So number one is we get through it. Number two is, if we don't have the people helping us, find them Easy said, I know it's easily said, but there are organizations or ways for us to get help. And also, if we're getting stuck somewhere, figure out if that means you need something more. You need to talk to somebody or find your own resources, self-help books that are out there to read, things that will help lighten the load for us.
Final Thoughts and Hope for Healing
Speaker 3But if it feels like it's been a really long time it's been years and you noticed you're stuck and I've heard, not just as a therapist but people sharing with me, like this person never got through that loss. So important, because the people in your life need you to be healthy, need to be okay. They also need to see that you can go through grief and go through and get come out of it. They don't need you to pretend it never happened but there is a way through and there's resources, there's faith and there's help and know that it's possible. And I sit here as wanting to be that example and I'm saying everything I experience in life and I will experience, I'm going to do just fine and it'll be great.
Speaker 2But I know that I've been through this and there was a way through, there was a light you know, at the end, I think that you're such a beautiful example because of all the strength and hope that you share, all the chizuk that you're able to give, but at the same time, your voice cracked more than once, I think and it's like what is it like 21 years? Which shows that you never forgot your son. You still think about him, you still love him, you still miss him, but you're okay, and I think that's those are the two things that people really need to hear.
Speaker 3Absolutely, and it's, it's, it should be that we, you know, refer back to things that happen in life and have some emotion. It doesn't mean we shouldn't you know, we work with people, anxiety or things you don't want to like get rid of the anxiety we're not looking to like make you non-anxious. Anxiety has a purpose, but I'm saying yeah, but it doesn't overwhelm me, and it's moments in time, and it's not often I go to his grave so I absolutely am in tears. It's not often, and it's not because I've stuffed it somewhere deep down in some part of my body and I've never looked at it. I've looked at the face and I've been with it, but I've also come through it.
Speaker 2Come through it Wow, unbelievable. Okay, well, thank you so so much for coming on. Hashem should continue to give you the strength that you need, and you should continue to strengthen others, and I really appreciate it.
Speaker 3Thank you, I really appreciate this opportunity.
Speaker 1You've just listened to an episode of the Grief Journey Podcast with Miriam Ribiat, brought to you by Mayrim. For more episodes, visit the Mayrim website at wwwmayrimorg. Help us reach more people who might benefit from this podcast. If you know someone who could find it helpful, please share it with them. If you have questions or comments for the speaker, or if you'd like to suggest a guest for the podcast, we'd love to hear from you. Email us at relieffromgriefatmayrimorg. We look forward to having you join us in the next episode.