Rabbi Shalom Hammer : Gila’s Way, Saving Lives

 Gila Hammer was a bright light who drew everyone in with her warmth and kindness. When she died from suicide at just 18 years old, her father, Rabbi Shalom Hammer, founded Gila’s Way — a nonprofit dedicated to suicide prevention and education. As Rabbi Hammer says, “The only way I know to confront death is by helping to save lives.”

In this moving episode, Rabbi Hammer shares his story — from the tragedy that changed his life to his work supporting traumatized IDF soldiers — and how he channels his pain into purpose through Gila’s Way, bringing awareness, hope, and healing to others.

To find out more about Gila's Way you can visit the website at: Gilasway.com

To speak to Rabbi Hammer or to schedule a speaking tour you can email: Info@gilasway.com

YouTube: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsK24OSmIYG_XWzeplhfmb8LJcWKphITh&si=untn3fmHLLaEEFNm

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/relief-from-grief-by-mayrim/id1788349916

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3AvWNp0DrHqE5AVYJHooiK?si=ufpIObuGRumS5uFXmvrpgA 

Questions or feedback? Email me at: podcast@mayrim.org

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to the Grief Journey Podcast, hosted by Mrs. Miriam Ribiet and brought to you by Mayrim. Mayrim is an organization dedicated to supporting families who have experienced the loss of a child. It was founded with Iloin Ishmas, Nachama Liba and Miriam Holman. Despite her illness, Miriam devoted herself to addressing the needs of parents and siblings grappling with the immense pain of losing a child. She felt this loss deeply, having experienced it firsthand when her older sister, Nahamaliba, passed away. Mayrim continues to uplift and expand on the work Miriam began, a mission carried forward by her parents with great dedication. If you have any questions or comments for the speaker, or if you would like to suggest a guest for the podcast, please email us at relieffromgrief at Mayrim.org.

Meet Rabbi Shalom Hammer

SPEAKER_03 0:57

Hi everybody, thank you so much for joining me here today on the Relief from Grief podcast. Today I'm very, very excited for our guest that is here today, Rabbi Shalom Hammer. Rabbi Hammer served under the Robinet, under the IDF, and he is now the founder of Gila's Way. And Rabbi Hammer, thank you so much for coming on. And I guess let's begin with what is Gila's Way.

Why Gila’s Way Was Founded

SPEAKER_02 1:21

Sounds good. Thank you, Miriam. Thanks so much for hosting me. Um Gila's Way was established pretty much about four, four and a half years ago, although some could say it was established five and a half years ago when tragically our daughter Gila at the age of 18 died from suicide. And uh in response, and to be quite honest, not necessarily only altruistically, but really therapeutically, I just didn't know how to cope, how to deal, um, how we could possibly make sense of life after the loss of our dear daughter. So I went out and started lecturing about mental health and about suicide. And as things evolved, I realized that there are so many people out there who are coping and confronting and challenged that it evolved into an entire effort of offering lectures, education, seminars, and learning about suicide prevention. And it evolved into what we call today Gila's Way and Gila's memory. And that's what we're involved in. It's as it says on the shirt, saving lives. Um, we offer consultations for families who are struggling, and we help them navigate to where that person needs to get to to first base in order to be saved. And on top of that, as I said, we really emphasize education, education about mental health and education about suicide specifically, so that people can identify and assist. And it's all in memory of our daughter Gila.

SPEAKER_03 2:56

Wow. Okay, so let's go back to Gila herself. Did you know that she was struggling with these suicidal thoughts?

What Gila’s Way Does

SPEAKER_02 3:05

Well, that's a that's a very good question. Um, and it requires explanation. So the answer is yes and no. What I mean by that is that we definitely knew that she was struggling, that's for sure. Uh suicidal thoughts she had, but we did not know because we didn't identify the suicidal thoughts, nor did we know about them or how to identify them. And that's a large part of what we do. Now, I always say to people, if I knew then what I know now, I believe the script would be different and Gila would be alive. There's almost no doubt in my mind about that. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 3:46

So she wasn't, she wasn't, um, she didn't she wasn't diagnosed with any other mental illness before this.

Did We See The Warning Signs

SPEAKER_02 3:53

No. No. Uh she definitely struggled and dealt, she was the victim of an assault, which was where everything spiraled out of control. Um, but she was never diagnosed, per se, with anything specific in mental health. She obviously was deeply depressed, she was traumatized, she had anxiety, and she didn't know how to cope with the pain within. And that's really where the problems begin. So, to answer your question, she definitely struggled, we definitely knew she was struggling, we definitely responded to that struggle, and she definitely had suicidal thoughts. Did we know them, identify them, or understand them? No. And that's really what Gila's Way is about. My wife and I often tell each other we don't want anyone, look, it's impossible to save everybody, but we don't want anyone to be in the I don't know category or I was not aware category. We want people to be in the know so that at the very least they have the capacity to understand that there needs to be a response.

SPEAKER_03 5:06

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 5:08

I mean, I just so you understand in the last two weeks of Gila's life, okay, now that I know what I know, she exhibited at least nine signs of suicidality.

SPEAKER_03 5:22

Really?

SPEAKER_02 5:23

Yeah. And we did not know about them, nor did her psychologist or psychiatrist approach us and tell us about them if they were aware of them.

SPEAKER_03 5:35

So did you do you like, are you do you have guilt and do you have anger to the psychologist, or are you kind of like accepting that this is the way Hashem wanted it to play out?

Guilt, Faith, And Anger

SPEAKER_02 5:45

Yeah, that's an excellent question. I wish, uh, well, I don't wish. I it would be amazing if I was the kind of person who could say, you know, yeah, I'm the kind of person who says I I accept that that's how Hashem wanted to play it out. Um the questions that you're asking are threefold. As far as guilt goes, not really. My wife and I do not really experience guilt. Uh it's something, for example, of for those of you who read Elizabeth Kubler-Ross and the steps of grieving, okay? So one of them in there is guilt. We have not experienced that. We do experience questioning the entire time. Should have, could have, would have. That there's no question. And that goes through our minds consistently. But we don't, we haven't experienced guilt. We feel that we have been the best parents possible for our daughter, considering her predicament and considering what we did or did not know. There's no question my wife was. But um, as far as questioning that for sure, as far as you know, Hashem goes, um, yes, there are certainly anger comes into play at times, but there was so much negligence in Gila's case, and it's so obvious to us that she really could have and should have been alive today, that very often we'll look at each other and say, there's really no other explanation other than the fact that a Kodishbar, who God decided that this is what had to happen. Right. I'll tell you even one step further. Um, I'd say in about the year last year or so, maybe more, we even say, and my wife says this to me, I'm willing to say that Gila died in order to catapult your efforts into helping people in terms of dealing with suicide, suicidal ideation.

SPEAKER_03 7:43

Wow. Did you ever stop and say, like, seriously, Hashem, this is the path that you wanted me to take? Like, who would have thought, you know?

SPEAKER_02 7:51

Of course. Uh, I mean, many, many times. I'll tell you, it's interesting. Um, you know, I have I try to have like a personal rapport with God. I think I do. It's it's not always a good one, it's a struggling one. And I think it's kind of like sometimes even translates as a boxing match, but nonetheless, we're in the same ring, if you know what I mean. And I never really experienced that much anger at Hashem with regards to Gila, which might sound strange to many people. But our son, our youngest son, who was closest to Gila, closest in age, closest in terms of their relationship, he also was exposed to the most. So he lived at home, he saw everything that was going on, he was with her the night before she died. She told him a lot of intimate thoughts uh and personal struggles. So he was exposed to a lot. And he went through his own journey, a very hard journey that was very difficult for him. And once when I saw him struggling and him having a hard time getting his feet on the ground, then I got really upset at Hashem and quite angry. I said, Look, what do you want from me? You took my daughter, now you're gonna deal with my son as well. I mean, excuse the expression, but for God's sake, yeah, give me a break. I mean, you know, how much, you know. But with time, you learn that we don't know God's plan, nor will we really ever be able to totally make sense of it, both nationally and a personal perspective. And you learn to say to yourself, you know, really anything could happen. Uh, you know, things are in our control.

SPEAKER_03 9:38

And just like when God took your daughter, like he knew that this was gonna be your journey and you're gonna start the whole gila's wait. He also knew your son's journey. He wasn't random that, oh, by mistake it happened like that. Like this is what Hashem wanted for him.

SPEAKER_02 9:53

Yeah, I mean, I I I would like to think that I'm a man of faith to that extent, right? And and Miriam, you're saying it, it sounds good, and we could put it in a book. Um, it's not that simple, but yes, I would even say that our son's struggle, as we say, now that Bar Hashem is doing well, thank God. We even came to the point where we could say explicitly, we believe that he had to go on this journey as well, of pain, of faith, of struggling, of figuring things out for himself in order to get where he is today.

A Father’s Rapport With God

SPEAKER_03 10:36

So you said something interesting before, and I think this is what we touched upon yesterday when we were talking um about that you started doing this three days after Shiva, and I challenged you on that. I said, you know, so what is it? You're just running? And you mentioned before how it was, you know, your therapy. But before I go there, I just I would love to hear a little bit about Gila. When I was talking to your secretary, Carly, is she your secretary?

SPEAKER_02 11:00

Um, she's she's our she's really our uh administrator. She she's everything basically, but uh but she's she's phenomenal.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

Yeah, she's not my telling me a little bit about Gila.

SPEAKER_02 11:14

Yes, she's telling me how everyone loved her. Yeah. Sorry.

SPEAKER_03 11:20

Okay, that's I was just saying, she was telling me a little bit about Gila, how everyone loved her, even though Gila was the youngest, she was no everyone was known as like, oh, she's Gila's sibling, as opposed to like, you know, Gila is her sibling. I would just love to hear a little bit about her. She sounded like a very special, warm person.

Who Was Gila

SPEAKER_02 11:37

Gila was um, I always say, like, larger than life. She was one of those people, kids, who she was so rambunctious, vibrant, dynamic, charismatic. She wore her emotions on her sleeve. Uh, her face was radiant when she smiled, the room shone. Um, and she she was a character, a real character. Uh, she was also, and this is important for people to know, because if you look at profiles certainly of teens or young adolescents who are struggling, and even I've profiled many who have died, Rahman Alatzlan, um, she was impulsive. She was impulsive, she was very active, hyperactive, um, but just an incredible personality. She was infectious. And wherever you would go, if anyone ever met her, they would say, Oh, I I know Gila, I remember Gila. My wife always says it's a funny thing. I mean, Kenahara, our daughter who was just older than Gila, uh, was very close to Gila. And Gabby, my wife, she would go to their school. They went to the same high school, and she would go, um, you know, she would say to kids in the hall, Does anyone know where Nahama, our other daughter, where her classroom is, you know, do you know where she is? And they would say, uh, no, we don't know who she is, but you want to know where Gila is? You know, everybody, everybody they all knew Gila. And I could tell you that to this day, this is all, you know, five and a half years on, I meet people still to this day who will tell me I remember Gila. Like I'll just come across them in, you know, at an event that we're running, an exhibition, a lecture, a seminar, and they will tell me I knew Gila and I remember her, and she came and helped me as such, or she came and approached me as such, or she didn't leave me in the school playground by myself. She was the kind of person who you know she she felt the pain of others, and uh uh she bore that pain on and that weight on her shoulders.

SPEAKER_03 13:55

Wow. Wow. Were you were you um it doesn't sound like it, but during like Shiva, were was there right after you I guess discovered that she wasn't alive anymore, did you even like think of keeping it a secret that she that she committed suicide? Or how do you say it died by suicide?

SPEAKER_02 14:15

No, died by suicide.

SPEAKER_03 14:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 14:17

So we never use committed suicide because committed is like involves a crime. So the terminology is die by suicide. And the answer is no. Not only did I never hide it or have, I guess, you know, I don't I don't want to say I didn't have a problem talking about it, I had a problem because of the pain and because of the loss and death of my child, but I never had um any inhibitions about discussing suicide. In fact, at her levaya, just so you know, at her hesbed, the hesbed that I gave, I spoke about the fact that she took her life, and I spoke about the fact that she was in pain and how people need to understand and speak to people who are in pain and empathize with them, because that's what she would have wanted. And I the most important thing that I remind people of today is that the vast majority of people who died from suicide do not want to die, they want to live, they they just find themselves in this deep, dark place of despair, and they don't know how to cope, not with anything else, how to cope with themselves. Now, I will tell you more than that. When I gave my hesped, after I was walking back to the car, you know, one of my relatives is going to drive us home. A man who I know, a very, very close friend of mine, his father, he's 82 years old. He came over to me crying. And he said to me, I want you to know that my brother died from suicide. My parents never told me, and I never told anyone until now. And after your hesped, I feel that I need to express it and speak to people about it.

SPEAKER_03 16:08

Wow. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 16:11

So it is.

SPEAKER_03 16:12

And do you ever get um pushback from people like him or other rabbanim or rabbis or whatever that this is something that shouldn't be public, it should still be pushed under the rug. You never know if someone is gonna read something and say, hey, you know, put the idea on his head and he's gonna go commit suicide because he heard your speech, etc.

Speaking Openly About Suicide

Harmful Myths In Religious Spaces

What Not To Say At Shiva

SPEAKER_02 16:31

I've never gotten pushback, uh, really, but I think part of that is because of my lack of popularity. I don't think anyone knows who I am, so that's a large part of why I just if I got pushback, or I I mean, some people say like the greatest sales of my book is because I was put in Kherim. I I don't, I'm not well enough known to be to have that stature. But I will tell you that you can't imagine how many misunderstandings there are. Huge in the religious world. Uh, just so you know, just give you an example, okay? I just got a call today from a friend of mine whose son is in the army uh on Sunday, a fellow soldier who's actually grew up in the Kharedi ultra-orthodox community here in Beit Shemish in a place called Nachlau Menucha. I don't know his story and how he got into the army and why he and the I don't know. I don't know if he was astracized by his family. I don't know. But he died from suicide, killed himself on Sunday. Uh he shot himself uh on Sunday as a Chayal, as a soldier, while they were on Imunim maneuvers up north. And a friend of mine, his son, who I know his son, is in his division and they were friendly. And he tells me, he told me that their Mefakid, okay, their uh sergeant, all right, officer in charge of them, said to the soul, said to the guys who are, you know, in still in the division. First of all, they did not send them home. They did not give them time to digest, to understand, to converse, to discuss. And he said to them that this guy who killed himself does not deserve to be buried in one of our cemeteries because he took his life. Now, first of all, he's completely wrong. That's number one. Second of all, even if he believes that, why would you say that to your soldiers after they're traumatized and they lost their friend? It is the most inappropriate, absurd, and stupid thing to say, uh, and triggering, quite frankly. And this was the reaction. So you can't imagine how many, how much this topic is misunderstood, how much misinformation is out there. I'll give you another example, okay? I gave over a seminar to what's called the Agudot Rosheishivov, the Agudot Yeshivot Ezr. This is Hezder Yeshivot here in Israel, where the guys learn Torah and they also serve in the army. It's a Shiluva, a combination of both. And I gave a seminar over to all the Roshey Shiva, to the heads of the Yeshivot, and to their wives, the Rebutons. And we were together in one room, I gave over the seminar about what happened to Gila and how, etc. One of the Roshey Shiva, one of the heads of yeshiva, a big yeshiva, he says to me, I said, now I'm open to questions. He says like this He says, We had a case of suicide in our yeshiva. And um I got up during Shiva of this young man, and one of the rabbis, he stands up, a big yeshiva. He stands up and he says, you know, one of his students died from suicide, and during the Shiva, he stood in front of the whole yeshiva, this rabbi, and he said, I want all of you to know that anyone who takes their life who dies from suicide is considered a Rotzeach, a murderer. Now, um, aside from the fact that this was kind of a silly thing to say to me after my whole presentation, it was inappropriate. Uh, it's also wrong. And I said to him, you know, who told you to say such a thing? He said, the psychologist who directs us at the yeshiva said that I should make sure to say that to all the students. I said, I don't I don't understand that. It's completely off, completely off. Uh, and it's not true. I mean, and so what happened was one of the other Oshe Yeshiva who was sitting there interjected and he said, I want you to know my son died from suicide as well. He was 26 years old, post-army. And what you're saying is wrong. Chazal, when they spoke about someone, you know, it's talking about, you know, uh, what's it called? I think it's um forgetting now the the expression, but you know, da tohimo, that his dot, that his his mind is with him. And so he makes that decision consciously to take his life. When we speak about someone who's struggling today, we're talking about people who are going through mental health struggles, challenges, uh, various variables in their life that's affecting them, and that's not giving them the capacity to think lucidly and to see a tomorrow. And that's not a Rosseach, that's not a murderer. That's a victim of an illness and a victim of a horrible, uh, unfortunate circumstance. So it's important for us to know that. So there's a lot of people who still subscribe to this stuff and don't understand. By the way, just recently there was a Revitsen, I obviously won't say who it is, but it was on Instagram, and she posted about how someone who takes their life, and she has a very big following, very big following. I'm talking about over a million followers. And she posted that in the Orthodox religion, we say that someone should not take their life because they're obstructing their opportunity from doing chuva, from doing repentance in this world. Now, I quickly responded to that, and thank God a lot of people saw our response and said it has nothing to do with doing chuva. Someone who dies, who kills themselves to suicide, they don't need to do chuva. They're victims of an illness. And and just like someone who dies from cancer, we don't say to them, you need to do chuva because you died. No, the person died because of an a horrible circumstance, a horrible illness that they're experiencing. And at Gila's hesped, okay, just so to put it in context, Gila was so spiritual, she had such an amazing soul and was so concerned consistently with her relationship with God with Akkadish Baruch.

SPEAKER_03 23:04

Wow. Wow. I I I I as a parent, watching your child struggle like that, I I I like how? It's the most heartbreaking thing.

The One Question That Saves Lives

SPEAKER_02 23:20

Yeah, I mean there's there's no question. A a parent, the worst experience for a parent, aside from losing a child, is seeing their child in pain. Uh you know uh we we have other children, thank God, and grandchildren. And they have Bor Hashem as a family, we have really made a conscious decision to live. And they've made a conscious decision to live. But they understand that there's a difference, even they're in pain and they miss Skeelah, but they understand very well that there's a difference between them and their parents. A parent who loses a child, a parent who sees their child in pain, there's there's there's no comparison. There's no comparison because they are part of us, they're who we are, they're our means of establishing a legacy. I saw an amazing thing, okay. Uh, can I share with you a Dvar Torah, something from the Torah? Of course. So I saw in in Parsha Thukat, the Torah talks about quite quite extensively. The Torah speaks about Arun Ako and his death. And the Torah says that Alai Eli Ho Hahar, that Aaron had to go up to this Hor Hahar, this place, and that's where he would die. But what's amazing is that the Torah says that Upashat et Bigadav, that he should take off his clothing, the Hil Bashtam Al-Elazar Bino. So Aaron would take off his clothing, his priestly vestments, his priestly garments, and adorn them onto his son Elizar, and only then he would die. And Ravshamshan Rafael Hir says a tremendous thing. He says, through this action, Aaron didn't die. He was Zoha, he was privileged to see that he continues to live. So by putting the clothing, the priestly garments, on his son El Azar, he didn't die, but he rather transferred and transmitted a l legacy and a means of living on. And that's what every parent wants. Every parent wants to live on via their children. When a child is taken from us, it's not just someone dying.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

It's a legacy that's lost. And that's very painful.

SPEAKER_03 26:11

I I guess what well, okay, when you say the legacy is lost, it's really only lost if they don't have children yet.

SPEAKER_02 26:19

Well, you know, I would even correct that. I think uh I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said that, and I'll tell you why. And I'm glad you corrected me that I'm Miriam. Um it's not a legacy lost. It's a legacy that might be cut short for that time, right? Um right. So Gila's legacy, I wholeheartedly believe lives on. She lives on. She lives on through what we do, she lives on by the actions that we're that we're committed to through this organization in her name. So her legacy continues, and you can't imagine how many people uh that she's affected in her life. It's incredible, and still affects in their lives, all right, through the stories about her and through her actions and how she acted when she was alive. So, no, her legacy, but you ask yourself what kind of legacy could she have established had she continued to live physically? Um that we'll never know. But yes, you're right.

How To Support The Bereaved

SPEAKER_01 27:22

Her legacy does continue to live on in a sense.

SPEAKER_03 27:25

Right. Wow. Wow. Okay, so let's go back to my to my what I told you. I'm gonna ask you a long time ago. What made you start this? You started lecturing and everything, right? I mean, I I'm very of the belief. I I set Shiva myself four times by the time I was like, I don't know, 32 or something like that. Um, and I from my own personal experience, I know that I, you know, I'm of the belief of just just take time, just just take the time to to grieve, to cry, to, you know, to uh whatever it is, like give yourself that time. It's very important. It's okay if dinners aren't made and you, you know, I don't know, work happens, you know, not so often or whatever. Um I think it's very important. So when I, you know, when I heard that you started this right at the shiva, I'm like, no, that can't be. That's wrong. That's that's just running, that's unhealthy.

Learning Suicide Prevention

Turning Pain Into Purpose

Closing, Resources, And Outreach

SPEAKER_02 28:15

So you you and my wife and all my kids, by the way. Um I I mean, I and and I'm not normal. I first of all, even before Gila died, I'm not normal. So I'm not such a normal person, right? I don't know how you describe how you define normalcy. You know, there are some who define normalcy based on anyone who's different than me. But I um, you know, I uh I you know I I am a very I need to, I'm very goal-oriented. I need to move, I need to do, I need to make sense out of things. And not only that, and it's a problem, by the way, it's a good thing in many ways, but I'm aware that it's a problem. I need to fix everything. You know, maybe uh maybe because I grew up with a Polish mother, I don't know. But I I I I need to fix everything. And um when Gila died, I I said, gee, how how am I gonna fix this? And for me, staying at home, and I was crying obviously all the time, but for me it was I need to go out and and make sense of this by spreading a message. How can Gila's death make sense, if ever, right? So my only way that I could think about trying to make or grapple with making sense out of this was creating a mission, creating a goal. That's me. Now, in all fairness, what's what's fascinating, listen to this. First of all, my children were upset at me. And they were like, What's wrong with you? Like, ground yourself, take it easy, stay at home and mourn. Stay at home and mourn and cry and be with us. So, my going out and delivering a message, I always tell people it wasn't all altruistic. Shalom Hammer is a saint. No, it's that I it was therapeutic. It was my means of coping. And what we need to know in grieving is that there's no golden rule. Everyone has their way. And everyone needs to find, hopefully, a way to cope with that pain. That was my way. But having said that, about three months after Gila died, there came along something which we call COVID. And COVID grounded me. It forced me to be at home. It forced me to speak to my wife, my kids. Not that I don't speak to them, I was speaking to them, but it put us in closed quarters and it put things in perspective of hey, this is where your life is at. This is where it's going to continue. Your guys, your people, your family. And this is where you need to nurture first before you go out and save the world. And it very much made me aware of that. My wife always says, Gabby, she's I'm getting this on recording, okay, Miriam, because I hope she'll listen to this. So it stays recorded. But she's an amazing woman. And she's very grounded, very straight, you know, not complex, and amazing. And one of the things she said was COVID was a blessing. COVID was a blessing because it brought you home. And it said to you, you need to be home. You need to speak. You need to. And at the beginning, by the way, all the majority of my kids, they weren't so hunky-dory about my speaking about Gila like this publicly. And it took them a while to digest that. I didn't let up really. I still, even during COVID, by the way, I was organizing groups to speak to of 25 people within the parameters in gardens outdoors, because I just didn't know what to do. And um, but it evolved. It evolved into, for lack of a better word, a healthy organization that would do good in her name. And my kids don't really speak to me a lot about it, if not at all, very little. They're aware of what I do. I do believe that they're very proud of what I do.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

And they feel very strongly that that's where Gila's Nashama is and has to be. So they understand that.

SPEAKER_03 32:59

So it's very interesting. So wow. So you're basically saying, like, kind of like agreeing with my, you know, the way I believe about the how important the grieving the time to take is. But also you like you have to do this, but like when you were forced to really take time, it was really um, it was really good for you.

SPEAKER_02 33:21

Yeah, I mean, listen, I mean, like I said, Miriam, I mean, unfortunately, you know as well, there's no golden rule to grieving. And everyone, everyone has to find their way. I mean, I I can't, by the way, you you can't imagine the most pain one of the most painful things, okay? People call me um and ask me to come to Shivas, especially people who died from suicide. And but I I go to Shivas of people whose children died. Okay. So people call me and they they and they'll say, you know, you need to go to this Shiva, you need to talk to the parents. And one of the reasons why is because, you know, what happens is you need to speak to someone who understands you. The only person who can understand someone who lost a child is someone else who lost a child. Now, I don't ever want anyone to be in that no or in that understanding, but unfortunately, that's the situation. When I go sometimes to speak to people, very often they'll say to me, What what do I do?

SPEAKER_01 34:26

What what do I do?

SPEAKER_02 34:28

What what what what what you know what can I do? What am I supposed to do? And they're they're asking after their child died. And the answer is there's no answer. I I I don't have a formula. I wish I had a formula. I can give them aids, you know, certain things that will assist them to read about, to learn about, to incorporate, but uh I can't I can't take away their pain. I wish I could. I can't. And there's no formula. I don't have a patent of what to tell them exactly. And it's so painful to hear those words. Because I know they're struggling, I know they're looking. What do I what do I do? And there's no answer. You it's something that unfortunately people in our club uh have to figure out on their own.

SPEAKER_01 35:20

And it's a very, very individualized thing. So what do you say?

SPEAKER_02 35:30

I say to them, I mean, look, Chazal were, I mean, they don't need my Gushbanko or a seal of approval, but they were very smart in many, many ways. One of the things they say is when you go to a Shiva house, don't say anything. Let them talk to you. So a large part of what I explain to, you know, I give seminars on grieving and bereavement to rabbis and leaders of communities, etc. And one of the things I say to them is, look, it's not always important to know what to say. It is very important to know what not to say. So, if you know, what do people typically say to us? They'll say, I can't imagine, I could no, I can only imagine what you're going through. And I say to them, no, you can't. And by the way, I'm happy that you can't imagine what I'm going through because I don't want anyone to ever imagine what I'm going through. Even in the imagination, I don't want you to have that. So that's inappropriate. I've had people say to me, she's in a better place. So I say to them, Really? So do you want to trade places? You want to go where she is, and she'll come back here, and you'll be in that better place. And all of a sudden they're like, Well, what did he just say to me? Whoa, whoa. But it's true. So people need to know, like, I'll give you another example. This was outrageous. A rabbi of a community is an established rabbi. He was a rabbi there in this community for at least 30 years. He came to our Shiva out of respect, okay? And he knows that Gila died from suicide. The first thing he says to us, how did she die? I mean, why is that appropriate? Why is that, you know, did you come out of your own curiosity or did you come out of religiosity? And that's a very blatant difference. And we need to be sensitive to that. So I go, I say to them, I'm so sorry, this is who I am. I lost my child, and I'm here because I understand what you're going through. And I want you to know that I'm here for you. If they want to open up and talk, I'm all ears. If they want to be in touch later on, that's fine. I just want them to know that there's someone here who is capable of understanding what they're going through. Does that take away the pain? Of course not. Does it offer comfort in a sense of, wow, there's someone here who understands me? It can. I'll tell you something, Miriam, that you need to know, um, that all people need to know about someone who is contemplating suicide. What the most vital question that you have to ask someone if you think they're suicidal, what do you think it is? The most vital what question that you have to ask someone if you think they're contemplating suicide.

SPEAKER_01 38:40

If you think someone's suicidal, what do you ask them?

SPEAKER_03 38:45

Like when you're planning it?

SPEAKER_01 38:47

No.

SPEAKER_03 38:48

How you're planning it?

SPEAKER_02 38:50

No. It's okay, Miriam. Most people don't know the answer, but they need to learn the answer. The answer is you say to them, are you thinking of killing yourself? Now, most people think, oh, well, that'll plant an idea in their head. It's not true. That's a total myth. It's not true. If a person's thinking about suicide, it's there already. And if a person's not thinking about suicide, your asking the question is not going to cause them to think about suicide. But why is it so important? Because what you're saying is, and this is exactly what Chazal say, right? Imo anochi betzara. I am with you in your pain. When you say that to someone who the person who's suicidal knows very well that it's a taboo, and they know that people are afraid to talk about. When you ask them that question, what you're saying is, I'm here with you. I understand that this is what's going through your mind. So let's talk about it. And that opens dialogue because that opens understanding. That's the same lahdu, okay?

SPEAKER_01 39:56

But it's the same type of approach that needs to be implemented with regards to grieving. Wow, that's very interesting.

SPEAKER_03 40:10

So what what question when you say it needs to be the same approach, what question is it appropriate to show that you're with them when you're asking someone that just lost a child?

SPEAKER_02 40:30

Well, first of all, again, allow them to lead the conversation if they want to. Please, do you guys not think that I think about Gila every day, if not every hour, you know, on the hour? I mean, I'm thinking about her all the time. So you're not gonna plan, I don't need anyone to encourage me to think about Gila. But what you do when you speak about someone who died, what you're doing is you're confirming with the person that they're still alive. If you ignore them, if you walk to the other side of the street, or if you pretend like you don't see them, or if you do anything not to speak about the person who died, you're actually confirming to the griever that the person's dead. But when you speak to them about, hey, can you tell me about you know you know how good Miriam, you felt, you you made me feel when you asked me at the beginning of this conversation, tell me about Gila. Who was she? What kind of girl? You know why? Because that confirms that she's still alive. I have the ability to tell Miriam, okay, um uh Miriam Ribiat, I hope I said that right. I I have the ability to tell Miriam Ribiat about this wonderful daughter of mine, Gila, who who most people know that she's not alive and almost consider her a non-entity, perhaps. Now she's an entity, and she's now being transmitted to a new person. That's the greatest thing you could do.

SPEAKER_01 42:18

In most cases, most people feel that way.

SPEAKER_03 42:22

Right. Wow. Wow. I it's it's like, I don't know, I can't even, I don't know. It's so it's just it's just so hard. I it's just so painful. It's so painful. So how do you get the whole suicide suicide education though?

SPEAKER_02 42:42

Right. So uh I just kept educating, I mean, listen, I have a little bit of a background in psychology and and education and guidance counseling. But that didn't, that's not, you know, that's not there. And and the reason why that tells you something interesting. The reason why I can educate myself in suicidality or suicide ideology and this and that is for the same reason that so many psychologists do not know anything about it. Meaning, it's not an issue, obviously, there has to be clinical experience. I don't treat anyone. I don't, certainly someone who's suicidal, I don't treat them. I don't, you know, I wouldn't engage with them unless I had to. If I saw they're by themselves and they're in danger, I I would I would try and save them. But I don't treat anyone. And that you need clinical experience in. But to learn about it, to understand it, to know about it, what to do, how to do, you know, how to identify, anyone could do that. And the proof of the pudding is that there are so many psychologists and mental health professionals out there who don't know how and don't know much about it. So really anyone, anyone can learn about it. And I threw myself in head first. I mean, I I I I took the mental health uh first aid course from Australia. Um, I took the uh Israel's national um international uh sorry, national suicide prevention program. Uh I became trained, you know, through them. Um, and I've taken other courses and and after a minute.

SPEAKER_03 44:13

I didn't hear what you said. You got to meet.

SPEAKER_02 44:15

Oh, I'm sorry. So I took the National Suicide Prevention Program here in Israel. I learned from them. I learned from delivery, and I learn a lot from consultations. We offer consultations in Gila's way, as I said at the beginning, and I unfortunately have a lot of people that I talk to. We've we've I've had about three circumstances of people who we literally have saved from killing themselves.

SPEAKER_03 44:43

Wow. Wow. I guess that's a huge nchama. I mean, that's like an aliyah for Gila's Nishama, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_02 44:51

Yeah. No, no question. And yeah, and I, you know, I uh feel it. I feel I feel her nishama through this work. No question about it. Uh, there are times before I go in to speak or give a seminar or a lecture. There are times beforehand when I will turn to whatever it is, the air, and say, Ghiley, come with me now.

SPEAKER_01 45:16

Be with me now. I need your help and I'm gonna speak about you. Come with me.

SPEAKER_03 45:22

Wow. Wow. Wow. Okay, so this hour flew by. We touched upon Gila, Gila's way, suicide, grieving parents, but I guess we didn't go too deep into anything. I guess before we do end, should we end with one, you know, one particular message or not? A little bit of everything is also good.

SPEAKER_02 45:45

That's okay. Um I think that uh but let me ask you this message to who?

SPEAKER_01 45:54

To the griever, to the uneducated, who who do you want me to transmit that message to? Whatever Gila's telling you.

SPEAKER_03 46:10

Really, whatever you feel, if there's something that you, you know, want any message that you feel like you want to get out there.

SPEAKER_01 46:18

I think that the most important message is we uh are given the blessing of life and we qualify life.

SPEAKER_02 46:38

What is when we speak about kedushah holiness, holiness own is only derived through purpose. So, for example, the land of Israel. Why israel, erit Israel, why is the land of Israel so holy? The main reason why this land is so holy is because it has and is filled with so much purpose. Where does the purpose come from? Unfortunately, it comes from wars, it comes from threats, it comes from challenges, it comes from difficulties, but it also comes from a lot of positive positivity. But there are many challenges, and that's what you know, that's what Jews and Judaism is about. We derive our happiness from finding purpose. And that doesn't mean happiness in terms of pleasure, but happiness in terms of a true sense of meaning, a true sense of what am I doing in this world. Every person who's alive needs to ask themselves, what is my purpose? You know, why am I here? And the final thing I'll say is something that I remind people all the time. You know, when Yosef was in Mitzraim and he turns to the prisoners in the morning and he says, Madhuapnechem Rhaim, why are you so sad? Why, why do you look so, you know, disgruntled? Now, obviously, they're in prison, but it's amazing because here is Yosef. Yosef, you know, he doesn't have a future, he doesn't have a parnassa, a means of livelihood, he doesn't have a family, he's ostracized in his existence, but his main concern is someone else. Hey, what's wrong? What's troubling you? That question can save a person's life. We need to be aware of the people around us and just ask that question. If a guy doesn't show up to work, or a person doesn't show up to minion, or a person is no longer attending, or a person's in their room all the time, or a child is just not participating in activities that they used to, or they're they're with their phone all day in their bedroom. We need to ask them, hey, what's troubling you? How can I help you? Let's talk about it. That approach can really save lives, and it's something that we remind people of consistently in Gila's memory, because she was the kind of person who was interested in people.

SPEAKER_03 49:09

Wow. That's beautiful. Well, thank you so, so much. And anyone that hears this, it should be an Aliyah for Gila's Nishama. Amen. And thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate your time.

SPEAKER_02 49:22

I'll just say, Miriam, uh, thank you for having us. And anyone out there, whoever they might be, they're more than welcome to reach out, to comment, to discuss, to question. Whatever way we can help, we're always prepared to do so.

SPEAKER_03 49:40

Okay. If anyone, so let's just what what's the um the address? What's the the website of Gila's Way?

SPEAKER_02 49:48

Gila'sway.com, G-I-L-A-S-W-A-Y.com. Um, I go very often on international lecture tours. So if any communities out there want to invite me to discuss issues, to converse and to give over seminars and talks, lectures, I'm more than happy if you reach out to me. And we appreciate that. All our proceeds of everything that we do goes to Gila's Way to our work. And um, yeah, ghila'sway.com is the best way. Thank you, Miriam.

SPEAKER_00 50:25

You've just listened to an episode of the Grief Journey Podcast with Miriam Ribiat, brought to you by Mayrim. For more episodes, visit the Mayrim website at www.mayrim.org. Help us reach more people who might benefit from this podcast. If you know someone who can find it helpful, please share it with them. If you have questions or comments for the speaker, or if you'd like to suggest a guest for the podcast, we'd love to hear from you. Email us at relieffromgrief at mahrim.org. We look forward to having you join us in the next episode.