Mrs. Feige Steinmetz; Asking why—and learning to accept that some answers never come.

Do you remember where you were that Thursday night, Lag BaOmer, almost five years ago, when the stampede happened in Meron? Forty-five kedoshim were killed.
 And Dovi Steinmetz was one of them.

That night, Feige Steinmetz stayed awake, frantic, trying to reach her son.
 She called him over one hundred times.

“Dovi, if you don’t call me back, I’ll kill you,” she said—half joking, half desperate, like only a mother can be.  But he couldn’t call back. He had already been niftar.

And so began Feige’s journey through grief.

She spent time searching for answers—meeting with gedolim, asking questions, hoping to understand why. Eventually, she came to a painful acceptance: some questions will never be answered.

But her son is never far from her heart.

“Grief is always with me,” Feigie says. “Some days I tell it, Okay, today you’re in control. And other days, I tell it, Today, I’m taking control back.”

In this episode, listen to a bereaved mother share her story—
 a story filled with deep pain, intense love, and quiet growth.

YouTube: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsK24OSmIYG_XWzeplhfmb8LJcWKphITh&si=untn3fmHLLaEEFNm

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/relief-from-grief-by-mayrim/id1788349916

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3AvWNp0DrHqE5AVYJHooiK?si=ufpIObuGRumS5uFXmvrpgA 

Questions or feedback? Email me at: podcast@mayrim.org

Transcript

Welcome And Mission Of Mayrim

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to the Grief Journey Podcast, hosted by Mrs. Miriam Ribiat and brought to you by Mayrim. Mayrim is an organization dedicated to supporting families who have experienced the loss of a child. It was founded Iloy Nishma's Nachama Liba and Miriam Holman. Despite her illness, Miriam devoted herself to addressing the needs of parents and siblings navigating the profound pain of child loss. This mission was deeply personal to her, as she had experienced such loss firsthand when her older sister Nohamaliba passed away. Mayrim continues to honor and expand upon the work Miriam began, with her parents carrying this mission forward with unwavering dedication. If you have any questions or comments for the speaker, or if you would like to suggest a guest for the podcast, please email us at podcast at mayrim.org.

Introducing Feggy And Davi’s Story

SPEAKER_11 1:00

Hi everybody, thank you so much for joining me here today on the Grief Journey podcast by Mayrim. Okay, so today, Mrs. Feggy Stimitz, who lives in Montreal, is here. Thank you so so much, Feggy, for coming on. I'm so excited. Thank you so much for having me. Um, I I I guess let's start a little bit about your son Davi. Davi, right? And um what happened? Davi, yeah. Davi.

The Meron Night And Confusion

SPEAKER_06 1:23

Davi, yeah. Pep peeb of mine. His name is Davi. Um, what happens? So um, as many of you recall, there was a Mayron tragedy in a Vlogba Omer 2021, when there were 45 Kadoshim who were NIFTR in Mayrone on that Thursday night. Um, my son, he was 21 years old at the time. He was learning in the Mary Shiva. He was not doing anything crazy, he wasn't doing anything stupid, he was doing exactly what he was supposed to be doing. He was supposed to go to Mayrone, he was supposed to celebrate, he was supposed to see the beauty of what Mayrone was. And that's exactly what he did. He went together with my married son and my daughter-in-law. Um, my married son and daughter-in-law left earlier, but my son Davi unfortunately got caught up in the stampede and he was nifter there. And we only found out the following morning because it took them a very long time. There were there was a lot of confusion, a lot of um chaos. And one one group of one organization, one group was not really in touch with the other. And there were various lists going out of who had who had passed away and and who was okay, who was in the hospital. And we weren't able to really get in touch with anyone who knew anything specific until the next morning when they called us and said, Can you send your your other son who's living in Israel down to the morgue and Tel Aviv to identify your son? We actually sent my son, and then at the last minute, I remember telling my husband, don't send Sweet, don't let his last memory of Davi be this. So we we asked the cousin to go and identify my son Davi. But really at that point, we we didn't need identification because the Mir Roshiva had gone down and he had identified my Davi. My Davi, like I said, was learning there. He was he had a proper ishore, he had a student visa, everything was in order. There was like everything was done by the book. And unfortunately, there were two Mir Bahram who were there at the time, Davi and his friend Yasikone, they were NIFTR together holding hands, and and from that day on, Fakey 2.0 now exists.

SPEAKER_11 3:44

Oh my goodness. It is so like so. A whole night, you didn't like really know for sure, like a whole night. Or you sort of knew, but it wasn't confirmed.

Shock, Trauma, And The First Days

SPEAKER_06 3:51

No, we we actually they kept saying that your son's name isn't on the list, so he must be okay. He must be okay. Maybe he was injured. But for me as a mother, I know it sounds crazy. I I said there's just something wrong. He's not okay. And I must have left him hundreds of messages that night on his on his phone saying, Debbie, you better call me. Because if you don't call me and and and I hear from someone else that you're okay, I'm gonna kill you. Like that was my message to him. And when I played back all those messages, I really left over a hundred messages. Debbie, where are you? Are you okay? Debbie, are you alive? Like, if you're not alive, how are you gonna answer me? But like that was me and my crazy. But I I needed to get in touch with him, but we obviously we couldn't. But I I remember um I had been saying Tahilim all night, and there were Tahelim links and chats, and everyone was saying to Hillim, and I remember calling my my school friend who happens to live in Montreal at like two in the morning. I said, Harold, there's something so wrong. She goes, What do you mean? Like, why? Because I said, The Tahelim that I've been saying my whole like life, like from the same Tahilim, especially since I got married, I use a very specific tahilim and art school, you know, not the interlinear, the side by side. I said, I practically know tehem by heart. I know the translation, but the words were so empty. They were like, they they didn't mean anything to me. And I said, There, I I know there's something wrong because it's it's not comforting me this tahem. It's it's like as if I'm I'm speaking in Chinese, the the words mean nothing. And she hung up on me and she yells at me before she hung up, she's like, You're crazy. But I I really I felt it. There was just something wrong.

unknown 5:29

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 5:30

And then we got a conversation.

SPEAKER_11 5:32

Oh my goodness. I the truth is, yeah, I'm not surprised. I mean, our six senses like they kick in. We we know, like our bodies know, like without you know, without it being confirmed. Well so let's go back to like the airport. I know that you know, you told us the story um last time when you came on, and you told us how you were yelling at them that like you can't take anything from me anymore, you already took everything, let me go through. So I guess my question is really like how that shifted today. Like, do you still feel like you have nothing left anymore?

Time, Pain, And The “Plus One” Grief

SPEAKER_06 6:04

I don't think I have nothing left, but a very big part of me ceased to exist because you know, every loss is very difficult. A loss of a parent is very difficult, a loss of a spouse is very difficult. I don't want to take anything away from anyone, but the only loss that's really an extension of you is losing a child. A part of me was was ripped away. And I had no time to prepare myself psychologically, mentally, physically. There was no prep. It just happened so suddenly. It was it was a trauma in itself, just the way it happened. Um, you know, unfortunately, when a child is sick, you have time to like kind of wrap your brain around it. I mean, we all know that, you know, in the Torah that says that, you know, they dab in Yaqub David, and the people should get sick before they die. But I I I didn't have time for that. Like it just, it was, it happened. And then all of a sudden things were moving at such a quick speed. I had to get from Montreal to New York, from New York to Artistral. From Archis, once I landed, I had to get to to the Lovaya. Then from the Laval, we went to Harmanujos, and then I had to go sit Shiva for a few hours, and then I had to leave back to New York to sit Shiva there because no one was able to enter Canada to be Menachamavas because of COVID restrictions. So much happened in such a short period of time, even like finding a place for his cave air actually. Um, you can't really buy spots in Harhamanujos anymore. But my aunt and uncle had plots, and we had to call an architect to see if the mountain, the side of the mountain where we wanted to put our son Davy, would be strong enough to hold him up. So we had to get an architect involved. All this had to happen with a matter of hours. And there were so many little details. So, can you take anything more away from me? I don't want to go there, but a lot was taken from me. And I take that whole package that happened then, and it's it becomes, it moves with me wherever I am. It's part of me. It became part of my persona. It's, you know, the shock then, the trauma then was beyond. I couldn't physically breathe. I had to concentrate on on just getting air into my body, breathing, inhaling, and exhaling. I don't have to do that anymore at this point. It's more natural. But um it's always there. The grief is always the pain, it doesn't go away. It doesn't cease, it doesn't stop existing. It's part of me. I just learn how to cover it up better, you know. And Bar Hashem, I'm very lucky, I've had simples sins, but it's you can have two opposing emotions at the same time.

SPEAKER_11 8:49

But is the pain the same intense or no?

SPEAKER_06 8:53

So it's you know, it's funny because I just had this discussion with someone. They say time heals all wounds. No, it doesn't heal the wound, but it takes away the intensity of that that first blow of that shock that you feel. Um like I said, I couldn't physically breathe then. I I literally I couldn't stand. My legs could not hold me up. My legs could hold me up now. The shock is not as great now, four four and a half years plus later. The the pain is just as intense. I will not say that the pain is not as intense, it's the shock that's not as intense. Because now I'm also a little bit more savvy how to how to cover it up, how to filter, how to know what my triggers are. I I take the pain with me. It's grief is my my plus one companion at any given moment.

SPEAKER_05 9:50

And I've I've used this analogy.

Simchas After Loss: Bar Mitzvah

SPEAKER_06 9:52

I I was and this is, and I really feel I I've told this to many people grief is my plus one companion. It accompanies me everywhere. When I first found out about my son when he was Niphter, the pain was so overwhelming, so all-encompassing that I allowed grief to be the very dominant one in the relationship. It was able to control me, it was able to tell me what to do, how to do, when to do. I was physically and emotionally finished. I was, I was gone. I was sick. But as time moved on and I was able to become a stronger person emotionally and physically, I became the dominant one in the grief relationship. And I can tell grief when it, when it's allowed to rear its head and when it's allowed to take control. And there are days, whether it's a birthday, a yard site, sometimes before Yamtav, sometimes even on Yamta, where I say grief, today is your day. You're in charge because tomorrow I'm back and I'll be back in charge tomorrow. I'll be stronger tomorrow. But right now, today, I need a break. I need a break. And you get to be in charge, you get to tell me if I could stay in bed, if I could do nothing, if I could read a book, if I don't have to answer the phone. You're in charge, but it's always there. The grief doesn't go away, it becomes part of you.

SPEAKER_11 11:16

Wow. I like how you describe the relationship that you decide who's in charge. I never like heard that description before. That's really strong. It's really powerful. It is. So can we talk about the simfas? I guess I want to so you made first a bar mitzvah and then a wedding?

SPEAKER_06 11:36

So last year, my actually, it's I'm sorry, it's not even last year, it's almost two years already, because his birthday is a Sarwatewe's. Um, I I celebrated my youngest son, my fifth boy, his bar mitzvah. It was gonna be the first personal simcha, meaning I barkish him, I had grandchildren, so those were simchals, but I wasn't the one. I wasn't the Bala simcha. Like I wasn't making the kiddish, I wasn't making the bris. Um, the bris, oh my gosh, that that's a whole other story. But um, my son's bar mitzvah.

SPEAKER_10 12:05

Grandchildren are named after him.

SPEAKER_06 12:07

I have one grandson who was named after him. Yeah, I only have one grandson who was born since, and it was it was very difficult. We could talk about that. What you want, what you think you want, and what you get. Um, so I made my son's bar mitzvah. It was a Sarba Taves two years ago, actually came out on Friday. So we fasted on Friday, went straight into the Simcha Friday night. So it was like, it was like the shortest Friday of the year.

SPEAKER_02 12:33

Right.

A Wedding Without The Brother

SPEAKER_06 12:34

So um a lot of prep work involved. Like I knew that this is gonna be a simcha that people might say inappropriate things or thoughtless things because people don't always know how to talk or what to say. So I remember my daughter standing outside my bathroom door and she's like, mommy, who are you talking to? I'm like, to myself. I literally, for about two weeks before my son's harmispah, I would lock my bathroom door, I would stand in front of the mirror and I would practice answers to people's stupid questions. Like any scenario that I could think of, I practice how I would answer them with a smile on my face, trying to be sincere, meanwhile, rolling my eyes and you know, in my imagination. But really, I tried. I also knew I didn't want a pet peeve of mine is like when people pet your shoulders or they try to like hugging is by some clay, yeah, everyone gives a you know, ear kiss and a hug. So that I knew what to expect because I do that also. It's just, you know, social etiquette. But the people who pet your arms like go away. Like that to me is the worst. So I I went shopping with something in mind. I bought myself a beautiful dress that had very structured shoulder padded shoulders. So like you couldn't really get to my arms and my shoulders because they were very well protected. And I bought myself very, very high heels, like literally between three and a half and four inch heels, which I never wear such high heels, but I figured if I'm five, seven and I wear such high heels, I'll be like five ten plus. And I made myself untouchable so no one could like really come too close to me because I was so tall and so overpowering. And I made sure to have my makeup done and my shades all, and I got fabulous jewelry. And I did my best to make sure everyone shouldn't say, Oh, yeah, it's her first simchat. She's not managing, she's not coping. I wanted to like take away any concerns that anyone had, and I I probably should get an award. I did it really well, like, but it was important. I wanted to show the world, like, it's okay. I I'm okay, like, leave me alone. Don't pet me, don't touch me, don't I'm dealing with it.

SPEAKER_11 14:51

But did you also feel like almost like um like guilt, like everyone thinks I'm really okay and I'm not?

SPEAKER_06 14:56

Like everyone thinks there's no guilt. I I I feel no guilt. I don't owe anyone an explanation for any of my emotions at any time. My emotions are mine and I own them, and I'm not gonna ever apologize for anything. I'm not. I I went through a trauma. I I I went through something that was unexplainable and completely out of the ordinary. It was it was not a normal situation. My emotions can be not normal because it it's a response to something abnormal. And I'm not gonna apologize. No. I I you know I try to filter.

SPEAKER_11 15:34

Explain like, oh, I look good and I'm happy and I really am happy, but don't don't think I'm not thinking about my son.

SPEAKER_06 15:39

I'm still thinking No, no, I I don't have to apologize for that. My son is with me 24/7. I I he's he's a part of my life, he's a part of who I am now. Everything that I do, every action that I take or make, he's with me. I I'm not saying I physically feel him, but because of what happened, I will never forget him because I'm not the same person I was. I've evolved into a different person, and that person has very different reactions to the person I I used to be.

SPEAKER_02 16:12

Right.

SPEAKER_06 16:15

So no, I don't have to apologize to anyone. And what no one should have to apologize.

SPEAKER_11 16:19

No, they shouldn't. No one should feel that they have to. Um, what about um your son, the Bermitzvah boy? Was this hard for him? That his brother wasn't here.

SPEAKER_06 16:29

You know, we took we we had a photographer come and um we took a picture of all the boys, and there was one who was very noticeably absent, and you know, the boys were joking, if Davi was here, do you know what he would do? And it was a joke, but I think everybody's really crying on the inside, and they tried to make light of it. But we really made the simcha as special as we could for my son. Whatever he wanted, we did. He wanted to have music, so Matsashaba, so we made him lava manga with music for him. He very much wanted to have a pizza bar. So we really tried to make the simcha as special for him as possible. We probably overcompensated, which we, you know, as parents, we tend to do, but that's okay.

SPEAKER_05 17:14

We're allowed to. Wow. Wow.

SPEAKER_11 17:19

And then when your son got married, when was that? That was more recently?

SPEAKER_06 17:24

So my son got married this past August, Bar Hashan. And um, it was that was like very hard because like I felt like I was skipping a child. Like my my fourth son was not supposed to get married before my third son. Like it wasn't supposed to happen like that, not in my mind.

SPEAKER_08 17:44

Right.

Seeking Answers And Hearing “I Don’t Know”

SPEAKER_06 17:45

Obviously, it was meant to happen like that. So I remember I was at an appointment right before the engagement, and I I sent my aunt, who lost her husband, who was actually shared the same name as my son. I sent my aunts a message that said, Toby, I can't believe Akiva's getting engaged, and we're gonna be marrying him off. And we never even made Xavi a wedding. And she answered me back. He's probably upstairs in Shemayim with Beresh, my uncle, drinking Lachayim and laughing at you. And he probably got married and found a really cute girl upstairs. And I was like, if she's not drop dead gorgeous, I'm gonna kill him. Because if he got married without me, how dare he! And she's like, Are you out of your mind? You like that's all you care about? I'm like, no, but like, how could he get married without me? Like, but this was humor. Like, it was it was a very, very emotional time for me. I mean, I went to the wedding where um I was very lucky. I had a tremendous amount of friends who came, new friends, old friends, people who I'd met at different organizations for people who have lost children, who have become my newfound friends and family. And they all made an effort to come, and which was, but I knew that the chapa would be long. There'd be a lot of singing, and I kept thinking to myself, I hope my gown is straight. I hope I I when we walk down, my minhug is, I wear like a small scarf on top of my chatel. And I kept thinking, like, I hope it's perfect. Like, and till the colo came was close to like 40 minutes, like of singing and this and that. And I was like, this hoppa is forever. I am not gonna shed a tear. I am not gonna blink my eyes. Like, like everybody's watching me. Everyone's like looking at me so closely, and I'm gonna show them all I could do it. And I remember thinking to myself, okay, I could do it. And then at one point, my Martin still held my hand. I was thinking to myself, just let go because this is gonna just throw me off. Because like any kind of physical touch would just like, I wouldn't be able to handle it. So like I remember letting go of her hand, and then finally they they broke. Broke the glass and everyone's muzzles hub. I was like, I did it. I did it. I survived the chapa. And I remember when, you know, everyone comes to wish you mazzles hub after the chapa, my friends were like, How did you do that? How did you stand there just looking straight ahead and not cry? I said, we can't discuss it. Like, I don't know. I just like, I just said, Hashim, like, I need to get through this. And thank God I did. I mean, it was a very emotional night. And I got home. Of course, I was a mess at night after the wedding at three in the morning. But during the wedding, I had made a conscious decision. I'm going to enjoy my son's wedding. I I it's his wedding. I can't take it away from him. He got an amazing girl, I have an adorable new daughter-in-law. Why should why should my pain ruin their semcha? So we figured it out. We carried two opposing emotions at the same time.

SPEAKER_11 20:56

So interesting. When my kids got married, my well, my first son got married. So I'm different because it's not a child, but still, like it was hard for me that my parents went here and two siblings, and I was like, I'm just gonna cry. Like, I don't care what people think. I just wanna, if the tears are coming, I'm letting them come. And that's for me a huge thing because I'm like petrified of like, you know, crying in public and people seeing it. I was like, I'm just not spending the wedding fighting them back. And I cried straight through the chuppah. I got comments about how much I was crying, and I was like, I was, I didn't realize that. And then I look at the pictures, I'm like, oh my, I'm really crying. But afterwards, like the tears stopped and the joy was so intense, you know, and it felt so I felt good to do it that way, you know.

SPEAKER_06 21:35

But you everyone has to do what works for them. Like, I guess I'm too vain. I didn't want my makeup running, but I was like, no, I'm not gonna cry. I'm not gonna shed a tear. Because if I shed one tear, I'm done for. It it's not one, it's it's it's it's a million, it's my entire being. So it was all or nothing, and I went for no, I'm not doing it.

Emunah, Ani Maamin, And Boundaries

SPEAKER_11 21:56

Right, right. Wow. Okay, that's amazing. Um, let me ask you something like this. Like, I know you spoke back, you know, right after it happened to a lot of Gdolim, and there was nothing really anyone could tell you. Like, you wanted your son, and there was nothing else that you were able to hear. But I'm curious because I find also, again, with me, sometimes an earlier message is like you, and then like later, I'm like, oh, you know, that's helpful. So I'm wondering if there's any messages that you couldn't take in then, but that you could take in now.

Community, Shabbaton, And Safe Spaces

SPEAKER_06 22:24

So really, a lot of what the the the the Hasidic Rabbas and the the Litfisha Adam Gadals and the Mikobalam said, a lot of it went over me. Like I wasn't ready to hear it. I don't think I'm gonna ever be ready to hear what they said because Allah was very like lofty and and and frou-frou. And that's that's not who I am. I I need real answers. I need practical. And there, I mean, I I I told you that story with Rapsha Mangalai, right? I forgot so it was at, I don't remember when we did the last podcast, but this was at the two-year mark of the yard site that we went to see Rapshim Mangalai. We had met him at a wedding, a cousin's wedding of mine in Lakewood, and he told us he gave us a bracha, we should have Minochas and Nefish, and we should have Kayah. And while we come to our so we should, we should go visit him. So this is after two years, I had not slept properly. I was like, my body was craving sleep. I wasn't normal. I was, I was going literally losing my mind. Like, I think I had tried every concoction of sleeping pills together that my doctor prescribed, and nothing worked. So I just went off of them. I had to actually wean myself off of them because you can't even stop cold turkey. But with my doctor's help, I was able to do that, thank God. And they weren't really doing anything, anyways, because I hadn't slept. And then I decided by the two-year yardsite when we went to our system that we were going to go see Ravshim Galay. I didn't know who he was before, but I started asking people because I knew I was going to him, and everyone said he has Ruha Kodesh, he sees things, he knows things. And if anyone has the answer, it's him. So I made a very, like I told my husband, this is it. This is our last stop. Like, I'll get a bracha from a rub, from a reb, a cobal. I have no problem with that. But I'm not, I'm not going to ask any more questions. I'm going to him and he's going to give me the answer, and that's it. Whatever he says, that's the answer. And we drove Thursday to Carriot Safer because he was staying by his son's house, and we knocked on the door, and his daughter, his daughter-in-law answered the door. He's like, She's, why are you here? And my husband explained that we have an appointment. And she's like, My father-in-law is not seeing anyone. I was like, bury me alive right now. Because, like, you're so embarrassed. It's Thursday night, everyone's cooking for Chavez. But at the end, she realized that we really did have an appointment, and she led us in to wait. And I thought it would be our turn first. We would speak to him and we would leave. Meanwhile, three other people came. They all, of course, went before us. So um doesn't work like in America, first come first, serve. Different concept completely. Um, and then it was our turn. And my Rev Golai was sitting at the head of the table, then was my husband, and then I sat next to my husband, and he he looked at me, Revgalay, and he said, Come sit right next to me. I want, I want to be able to hear you, and I want you to be able to hear me. And I was like so impressed. Like he he was so great, great. Like he was his his sitkas was amazing, like you, you felt it, you knew you were in the presence of greatness. And he asked us if we prefer Yiddish or Hebrew. And I, you know, my husband said we prefer Yiddish, so we spoke in Yiddish. And he right away he asked, My husband, do you have any questions? Now, my husband, not from the get-go, not from the very second that we heard the news, did he once question or falter in his amuno? Because he really accepts everything Baha, and and it's just it's second nature to him. It's probably first nature to him. And I am his polar opposite. I need answers, I need to analyze and I overanalyze. And so my husband says, I don't have any questions, but my wife has questions. So he turned to me and he asked me, and the words were literally like they were just tumbling out of my mouth. Like, why did this happen? Why did this happen to my family? Why did this happen to me? Why did this happen to my son? Why did there have to be 45 Kadoshin? Why couldn't there be just 44? Like, that would have been enough. Like, why, like, why? And he looked at me and I knew that this was it. I was getting my answer. Like, I was like, I knew I was gonna sleep that night. Like, could you imagine two years you're waiting to get an answer and you made a decision, this is it? You're not asking anymore, whatever he says. And he looked at me with tears streaming down his face, and he threat he said three words. That's it. And yiddish, he said, Ichvaiesh, I don't know. And I was like, I couldn't breathe. I was like, I waited two years to hear, I don't know. But he said it. He wasn't giving me, giving me any fluff, he wasn't giving me any any frou-frou. He wasn't giving me any uh kabbalistic answers. He was just telling me the real answer. I don't know. Like, we don't know. And I knew in that second, like the two years of all those questions that I had, my heart and my mind finally connected, and I realized I'm never getting an answer. I'm not privy to that, that kind of information. When Hashem wants to reveal the plan, Mashiach will come and then I'll know. But that's it. And then, of course, he went on to tell me that my husband and I have to continue this animamam initiative that we started. And I'm like, I said, but I'm so tired. I remember saying, like, I was so exhausted. And I said, I don't have the energy. He looked at me, he goes, This is your tafgid. And every time you talk about a Muna and you talk about animamam, it's a it's a Naliya for your son's Nishamah. And then he was just like, Good job, I said goodbye. And that was it. There was no answer. But he was so honest and so real. Like he he couldn't give me an answer because there there wasn't. There's no answer. And it was the first time I was able to finally accept it. I had opened myself up enough to accept I'll never get the answer. And I needed a Godzilla like him to tell me that the way he told it to me.

SPEAKER_11 28:19

Hey, you needed a Godzilla like him, and you probably also needed the two years to kind of accept the shock a little bit for Right.

SPEAKER_06 28:26

I did, I a hundred percent. But it was also a very con I'm not asking anymore. Like, I don't go to Reba's anymore or or to like any other godzels or McCobala. I don't ask them why. Because like I already know I'm not getting an answer. Like, that's it.

Names, Continuity, And Triggers

SPEAKER_11 28:40

During those two years, you like people answered your why a little bit, or not really?

SPEAKER_06 28:45

They try to, but no one ever gave me a uh, you know, it's a it's a it's a kapara for this, it should have been that. You think I want to hear my son was a kapara for Claudia Sol? Right, no, no, I I he was he's my son. Don't don't don't take him away from me. Could you imagine how much worse it could have been? No, it could not have been any worse. My child is not here with me. It doesn't get worse than that. So don't don't don't try and make me feel better. It could have been worse. That the cloud could have suffered more. The cloul suffered. I'm not saying that the cloud did not feel my my pain. They did, but they went on with their lives and they continued their lives. And Bar Hashem, that's that's the way it should be. But my life as I knew it ceased. It's it's over, it's finished. It you know, my son doesn't have children. I there's no continuation, there's no continuity. It's it's it's over, it's final.

SPEAKER_11 29:43

Wow. And if you would say that to a Godzilla, they would say his continuity is the Animaan Foundation.

SPEAKER_06 29:50

No, right, but but that that doesn't that doesn't give me a conversation with my son. All the all the the the amazing things. Yes, I'm not I'm not taking away, and there's this there are many sifre torah that were written illing son, and they're beautiful. It's not my son. I can't talk to him. I can't pick up the phone and say, Davi, how was your day? Or how's your wife? Or how are your children? There aren't any. That's it, it's over.

SPEAKER_02 30:15

Right.

What Helps: Say Their Name, Share Memories

SPEAKER_06 30:16

And I mean, even like Prahasham, I have a you know, I very much wanted a ch uh a grandchild named after my son, and you know, and now I have it, but it's painful. They call him the same name, they call him Davi. No, so my daughter-in-law is first of all, they had to add a name. They had to add a name because that's what that's what we were all told. So his name is Akiva Yesah Dove Barish. Very long name, a very big mouthful. He was um born on the Ramhal's yard side. The Ramhal is his name was Mosha Khayan. That's my father-in-law's name. We could not give that name. Um, was a gilgal for Rabbi Akiva, buried right next to Rabbi Akiva. So they added the name Akiva, and he was born Jvo's time. So very befitting name. They call him Dove, but my daughter-in-law, she called me up, she says, Ma, you call him whatever you feel comfortable calling him. We're calling him Dove because I don't like the the nicknames. Like my granddaughter is Malka, he's Dove. They give the name, like they call by the name, she doesn't like any, you know, any nicknames. So great. But um I remember everyone at the Brist, it was Erav Schwuz. Like Schwis was the following day. And people came over to me and they were like, it's so beautiful they gave your son's name. I'm thinking to myself, really? Really? That's beautiful that they had to give their brother's name. What's so beautiful about that? That means that he's not here. And I realized that if somebody gave the name, he's never coming back. It was, it was like really final. And I I told this to someone, I said, you know, Basham, I had two granddaughters born within the year that my son was Neftar. And I remember when they were, there were two girls. I mean, I was very grateful for the girls, but I was like, you couldn't give me one boy? Like, really? I I just want the name. And when I did get the did get the name two years later, I wanted to shoot a gun at everyone who said, It's so nice they gave the name. Really? This was a name that probably never would have been given because it's already going back four generations. But now they gave the name. This would have been like a lost name in the family. Like no one's giving you Sakhar Dov Verish because it's like my great-grandfather, it's their great great-grandfather. And unfortunately, there are names that are closer to gives. So it's like, you know, you you want the name, but when they give the name, it's it's it's hard. It's real, it becomes very real all of a sudden that it's it's that's it.

SPEAKER_11 32:53

So what happens when you call him or look at him? You think of your son, or you just see a cute little So it's it's interesting.

SPEAKER_06 32:59

He's my only grandchild that looks nothing like like like our family.

SPEAKER_14 33:04

Oh funny.

SPEAKER_06 33:05

He looks nothing. So like when I look at him, he's just luchtig and he's full of light, and he's absolutely adorable, but he doesn't look like my son. He doesn't look like my kids, he looks like the other side. So it's like, like, okay, Hashem, you were good to me. Like everybody, like if you see my grandchildren and you were to drop them off in some foreign country, they would be returned to sender. They would all come back to my house. They all like my grandkids look like Simetzes, not like me, like my husband's side of the family, but there's such a strong resemblance. I I could have given birth to all my grandchildren, except for this one. This one is like, where did you come from?

SPEAKER_09 33:41

It's so funny, it's so interesting.

SPEAKER_06 33:43

That's almost good to me. I I will I don't take it for granted. I think it would have been very, very hard had he looked like my my child. I do have another grandson, my oldest grandson. I I literally could take baby pictures of him and my sons, and like, I don't know who's who.

SPEAKER_12 33:59

Wow.

SPEAKER_11 34:00

Wow, that's so funny. That's so cute. So let's talk about the animam foundation. Did it like change that the your connection with the grow in the beginning? You really had a hard time with it, right?

Closing Hopes And How To Reach Mayrim

SPEAKER_06 34:11

Um, I could not listen. I still have a very hard time. When they start playing animam, I'm like deep breath, deep breath, deep breath. Um, it's not my favorite song. Um, I remember my husband saying, You have to start saying the animals. I'm like, don't tell me what to do. Like, you you do your thing, I'll do mine. About, I would say, probably six to seven months ago, I started saying them, like, it takes really like I always say it takes 90 seconds. I just couldn't get myself to say them because if you think about them, kind of lose you you think you're in control, but the animals really show you that you're not in control of anything. And I I had a hard time letting go. And it took about those few months till I was able to like finally say them. I think I just like said them like very quickly from like my my to feel us see safer, and like I didn't think about it, but now I actually I I I read them and you know I understand them and I, you know, internalize what they what they say. It's it's not always easy, but you know, it it's part of my evolving. Um, the foundation still is my husband's baby. He very much is into it. He gets all the emails and he loves to hear all the stories of the people who say that it changed their lives for the better. And I'm happy for him. I'm happy that he has this. You know, he worked very hard on it. And Kalakabod, for me, I I do other things. I definitely do other things. Leela Nishma's my son. I do an event for women every single year. That's my once a year that I devote to it. A lot of work goes into it. But it's not my constant, you know, project, so to speak.

SPEAKER_11 35:59

Right, right. So interesting how really everyone has their like own way and their own thing. And it's so good. You you're so like healthy. Like he could do his thing and you could do it your way, and like you're you're good.

SPEAKER_06 36:11

You have to find your niche and see what what talks to you. Like, I I why would I do something that doesn't like call to me? It doesn't like doesn't make me feel better. Like I want to devote myself to doing something that makes me feel that I'm I'm doing something Leela Nishma's my son. I want, you know. Right.

SPEAKER_11 36:28

So can we talk about the May Rim Shabbatone? How many years have you gone to it so far?

SPEAKER_06 36:35

So I actually went only once before. Okay. Um I met some incredible, incredible people there, some that I still keep up with, and it's really amazing. Um you know, just to be in a place where you don't have to wear a mask because basically everyone that's there has unfortunately suffered the loss. So they're your peers. They're they're your equals, they're not any different than you. Their stories are different. Everyone has a different story, of course. But there's a camaraderie, there's this, it's it's a safe haven. And there's something very comforting in knowing that you can sit down and and and drink a drink or have a coffee or eat a piece of cake or sit at the suda. And if you want to talk, great. And if you don't want to talk, that's great too, because you don't have to explain yourself. You know, you're allowed to be you for who you are. And it's it's just like I say, it's a safe place. And everyone needs to have that place where they feel comfortable and safe and and that they don't have to protect themselves.

SPEAKER_11 37:43

It's so amazing. And you're you're it's the only organization that has these shabbatons. I think the only organization for like the full family, right?

SPEAKER_06 37:50

So, like, yeah, do you have I have gone to other shabbatons. One's very, very Hasidish. Um, another one is for um loss of adult children. So that's also I I have to say, it's it's niche and it's nice to go with someone who's, you know, because when you go to Maryam, it's loss of a child from any age. And sometimes I can relate better to than others. You know, I do have uh sometimes a hard time relating to people who've, you know, lost like very young infants because it's just a very different, it's a different kind of loss. It's a loss and you cannot take away the pain. It's it it pierces your soul to the very, you know, there's no other way to say it. It's it doesn't matter how old the child is, it's just I personally have a harder time relating to to that age group.

SPEAKER_13 38:37

Right.

SPEAKER_06 38:37

But um, but when you're sitting around a bunch of mothers, it's it's it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_11 38:43

And do your children come with you? You're I guess two younger ones?

SPEAKER_06 38:47

So my my kids came the first time. Um, the second time that maybe that we were invited and and it was open to us, we didn't go, we had a family simcha. And last year we actually were registered to go, and I got sick and I I couldn't travel. I was so I was like high fever, science effect. I was so sick. I was like, we're having a shabba's ho without us. I was like, and my husband's like, just take your child and all. Like I was not a functioning human being. So this year, my daughter's in seminary narrative, so she is definitely not coming home. Um, and my 15-year-old son is not coming. He doesn't want to come, it's not his thing, and he's not such a people person, and you know what? That's that's fine. He deals with with his you know emotions his own way, and he's Bhaksham very healthy.

SPEAKER_05 39:34

And I just feel like there's so many people that I would like to, you know, connect with, and it's the perfect time.

SPEAKER_11 39:42

Right, right. Wow, it's really it's so um it's so amazing what they do. Like I'm not I'm not really involved in, you know, in getting it. I'm not involved with it much at all, but I'm on the chat and I kinda you know, I see all the messages of, you know, oh we have to.

SPEAKER_06 39:58

No, it's really like I remember last time. I went like they first we did like um like a paint workshop. It was so much fun. Like, we can't paint, like, let's be real. Like, most people do not, and I mean, we we were just laughing at just like our how ridiculous we're a bunch of grown women sitting here doing like a paint day, and like nobody like the picture that we all produce did not look anything like the original. And we just we laughed so hard about it. And then, like the meals Friday night, and then just sitting around afterwards, just talking in shop this morning. You know, if you want to go to show, go to shoal. Don't go to show, it's fine. And you know, everyone found their group that they wanted that they were able to connect to. It was so like nice, it was comfortable. That's what it was. It was just so comfortable, no ears about anyone. You know, we are who we are. Take us as we are, and it was just nice, it was so pleasant. And they also it's no frills. It's no frills. Like, I love that job. It's like, come as you are. You want to wear makeup, don't wear makeup. You want to wear makeup, wear makeup. You don't want to wear makeup, don't wear makeup. You wanna get yourself dressed to the nines, do that. You don't want to, that's fine too. Everything works, and it's just it's so nice to know that you're welcome. Doesn't matter what you look like, who you are, where you come from. Everyone's the same.

SPEAKER_11 41:17

Everyone just has a different story. Let me ask you a question. If you would meet a mother that would say, but tell you that she lost more than one child, would you like be horrified and want to run away from her? Or would you still feel like you could connect to her?

SPEAKER_06 41:30

So it happens to be that a friend of mine, I can't remember if I met her at May Rim or not. It's very possible I did for the first time, but my it's a little bit foggy.

SPEAKER_03 41:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 41:41

And I met her over the years a few times, and she kept in touch with me. I don't know her well, but her grandson recently got married in Montreal, and she invited me to the wedding. So I said, you know, I'm gonna go say Maslow's hub. So I went early. My husband was out of town, and she actually lost two children. Um, there's a lot, a lot of pain, but she is an incredible mother, an incredible human being. And she invited me. So I said, okay, let me go. I know what it's like to make an out-of-town simcha and not have so many people or not know so many people. So I went, I went early. If I tell you I was the guest of honor, she was so excited. She was so happy. I was so grateful that I went to say Masl's Hav because she felt like a million dollars. This is my friend. Like she came. She doesn't realize that the hall is like 10 minutes away. But like, you know what? For me, I was grateful. Because you know what? I got to enjoy her simple. I got to see how happy she is. Because sometimes, you know, you go to a shabbat and you get to see a lot of a lot of heaviness. But here I got to see sheer joy, pure nachas, and enjoy. I was so grateful that you get to see two sides of a coin. Sometimes you get to see the heaviness, but you also get to see the laughter and the lightness. And I was so grateful. Um, no, I unfortunately losing two children is, I mean, it's not the norm. Losing a child altogether is not a norm. Two is for sure not the norm. My heart goes out to anyone who has to go through such a loss more than once because um it takes a toll, it takes a toll on you, it takes a toll on your family, it takes a toll on your friends, on everyone who's who you're connected to. So it is hard, but it doesn't scare me. It doesn't, it doesn't make the person less than, more than. It just makes them who they are and you take them as they are.

SPEAKER_11 43:33

Right. So I heard from parents the reason that I asked is because I heard parents like say that like it's like almost like no one wants to talk to them, almost as if it's contagious. Like, oh my gosh, like such a thing happens, forget it. Like, don't I don't want to know what you're doing?

SPEAKER_06 43:44

Oh, it has nothing to do with how many children you lost. If you lost a child, you're contagious, you're a pariah. No everyone crosses the street, no one wants to look at you because if you lost your child, for sure, the next person's gonna lose their child. I mean, people still don't like can't look at me or don't, you know. It it's we're coming up this year, Log Bomber will be the five-year mark. And you would think that like you can you can say hello to me on the street, like nothing's gonna happen if you look in my direction, but people still will cross the street. Like, but those are the people you know what I don't want to associate with.

SPEAKER_13 44:17

Right, right.

SPEAKER_06 44:18

I I don't want to have anything if you can't like be on the same side of the street as me, no, you're not worth my time.

SPEAKER_05 44:26

Are you scared of five years? You know, five years is is an anniversary. Every year is an anniversary, but five years.

SPEAKER_08 44:37

It's like five years, like there's something to find.

SPEAKER_06 44:40

So I was actually, you know, I'm working on my auntie momum event for you know, before Lag Belmer, and I was thinking, like, what am I gonna say? And like the only thing I came up with is when you ask a child how old they are, and they say, I'm a whole hand. It's a it's like, it's like it's so exciting, right? Five years. Like it's it's like you can show five years in one hand. I'm thinking to myself, that's the child's interpretation of five years. And my interpretation is it's it's an eternity, it's a lifetime. It's five years of memories which aren't so crystal clear anymore. They're a little foggy, a little hazy. Um, do I remember everything so clearly or did I make that up? Like I question myself sometimes. So five years, a lot happened. A lot happened in five years, and I've come a long way. I've worked on myself, I've I've done the work, I've I've I've accepted that this is who I am. Doesn't make it easier. I think five years makes it that much harder because I still remember. Does everyone else remember the horror of what happened five years ago? And I I don't want people to forget, like every parent's worst nightmare is to have their child be forgotten. So five years, a lot of people forget.

SPEAKER_11 45:55

Five years is a scary number. It just there's something about five that you know that just makes it so hard.

SPEAKER_06 46:01

So I recently spoke to a mother and she told me it's 20 years since she lost her child. I said, 20 years? I didn't even realize it was this long. I said, how how did you live with this for 20 years? And she said, a lot of hard work, a lot of tears and a lot of hard work. And I was like, five years was so long.

SPEAKER_05 46:25

But 20 years?

SPEAKER_06 46:28

That's that's that that that's my son was 21, like that's that's like his whole life almost. Right. I I I I I really like I couldn't breathe from her.

SPEAKER_05 46:40

And she did the work also. She, you know. Wow. Wow.

SPEAKER_11 46:49

Such a like I don't know. I I I interviewed a mother recently, and her son was Nifter. Way more than 20 years, because I think it was in 1988 or something like that. And the way she talked about him, and I asked her, I said, look at how you like your memories are so clear of who he was and his sickness and when he was actually niftar and what was going on around that. I'm like, but you're you're like a happy person. Like, oh, this is what we were talking about on the phone. Because then I said something like you moved on, and I was like, oops, I meant to say you moved forward.

SPEAKER_06 47:22

Um you take every emotion, every emotion, like you said 1998, that's over 30 years ago. She took everything from that period of time, and it's traveled with her over the last 30 years. I mean, the last four and a half plus years have come with me. I mean, the ups, lots of downs, a lot of good days, some bad days, triggers. You know, before Yantiv, don't call me. Don't ask me for a favor before Yantiv. The answer is no, I'm in survival mode. I I can't, I can't do more. I, you know, I'm limited. I could only give so much of myself, and I know what I can or cannot do. And before Yantiv, I can't give. I cannot give. I can't do more than just getting through cooking and doing my basics for Yemtiv. I'm grateful for that. And sometimes I even have to order because I just can't get it together because it's so hard. It's a trigger Yemtiv. It's family time, and the whole family is not here together.

SPEAKER_02 48:26

Right, right.

SPEAKER_06 48:27

You know, I have friends who tell me they they take family sim pictures and they always hold a child a picture of their child who's not there. And for me, I that's not who I am. I've accepted my son is not here, and my family looks different. You know, and I I I'm not gonna hold up a picture of my son in the family picture. I I can't do that. That's not that's not me, because it's not to me, it's not real. Like that, it's it's a nature of of my personality. Everyone has to do what works for them, but they're like, so you're not gonna remember your child. I said, No, it's it's a constant reminder. When my child's not in the family picture, I don't need to show that he's not there. I see he's not there. He's missing.

SPEAKER_11 49:07

Right, right. It's right. It's you other people don't have to see it. It's your pain, it's yours.

SPEAKER_06 49:12

It's my pain. I it's a constant reminder. I have a picture, you know, by my son's wedding, they took a picture of all the siblings. There was one missing. There was. There was one person who was not there.

SPEAKER_11 49:23

Right. Wow. Okay. I I guess before we end, is there anything that we that you want to share with newly bereaved versus not so newly bereaved? Or maybe you're still considered newly bereaved, so you don't want to go there. I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 49:38

So it's funny, there's so many different articles that people have sent me, and they all center around the same thing. Like, don't be afraid to say their name. Don't be afraid to mention my child's name. I so appreciate when I get a phone call or somebody sends me a picture. I just found this, or you know, did you hear the story about the time this and this happened? And I don't shy away from that. I I embrace those moments because to me, it means that somebody remembers me, that someone thought about me, that someone is not scared to remember. And I'm so grateful. My daughter went to seminary this year, and you know, she she's in a very large room. She has eight roommates, and it's it's a big room. And she said, like one roommate, you know, was roommate with her brother. The brother was a roommate with one of my other sons. And then one girl came over to her and said, Are you Davi Simus's sister? And she was already rolling her eyes, thinking to herself, this is the roommate I'm never talking to. And then the girl continues and says, I know your brother because he used to eat by me all the time when he was in yeshiva and lakewood. I could tell you the craziest stories about him. And that was like, phew. She was able to breathe my my daughter and say, I'm not a pity case. I'm not somebody's, you know, Nebach. Like they're gonna tell me funny things. And she she was happy. Somebody was celebrating a funny memory with her. And I also feel like, tell me, tell me what you remember. You know, I want to know because knowing gives me, gives me new memories. I I can't make new memories. That's it. Whatever I have, I have that nothing new is created, he's gone. But when you send me, like what we call the pictures that we get that we never had on our phones or whatever in our in our albums, we call it lost footage. When we get them, we're so excited because we don't know when this picture was taken, but now we have it, and we like when did you know we try to make up stories about the picture and it's it's fun, it's nice for us. We we appreciate it when his friends have have have babies and they call to tell us their Mazzle tub, they remember, oh, Duffy's not forgotten. They remember to call Duffy's mother. I'm I so appreciate it, it's so nice. Don't ever be afraid to say our child's name. My son died in a tragedy. His life was not tragic, not for a minute. He had a great life, and I don't want anyone to think that the tragedy defines who he was.

SPEAKER_11 52:13

Wow. So your message is not to be reef parents, but to all others that are gonna be listening, because plenty of people do listen. And your message is like don't don't be afraid to share memory, don't be afraid to say the name.

SPEAKER_06 52:27

Yeah, but we we want to hear our our kids' name, we want to know they're not forgotten. And that gives us the biggest. I mean, for me personally, it gives me a big nihama. Wow.

SPEAKER_11 52:38

That's amazing. Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you so so much for coming, Ann. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_06 52:45

And Miriam, for you anything, you know that. We're gonna do anything for you.

unknown 52:49

Oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_11 52:52

Okay, and and I don't even know how to end off. Like only some clothes now on.

SPEAKER_06 52:55

I guess so. Amain, Ahmed, Amain, Hashim should give everyone some clothes. Clay so we need Bashiach to come, and we need just to have yeshua's and refules and the hummus and everything that we need, Hashim should give us.

SPEAKER_11 53:18

Okay, so today, Mrs. Feggy Snymitz, who lives in Montreal, is here. Thank you so so much, Feggy, for coming on. I'm so excited.

SPEAKER_06 53:25

Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_11 53:27

I I I guess let's start a little bit about uh your son Davi, right? And what happened? Davi, yeah. Davi, okay.

SPEAKER_06 53:34

Davi, yeah, pet peeve of mine. His name is Davi. Um, what happens? Um, as many of you recall, there was a Mayrone tragedy in a Vlogba Omer 2021 when there were 45 Kadoshim who were NIFTR in Meron on that Thursday night. My son, he was 21 years old at the time. He was learning in the Mary Yeshiva. He was not doing anything crazy, he wasn't doing anything stupid. He was doing exactly what he was supposed to be doing. He was supposed to go to Meron, he was supposed to celebrate, he was supposed to see the beauty of what Mayrone was. And that's exactly what he did. He went together with my married son and my daughter-in-law. My married son and daughter-in-law left earlier, but my son Debbie unfortunately got caught up in the stampede and he was nifter there. We only found out the following morning because it took them a very long time. There was a lot of confusion, a lot of chaos. And one group, one organization, one group was not really in touch with the other. And there were various lists going out of who had who had passed away and who was okay, who was in the hospital. And we weren't able to really get in touch with anyone who knew anything specific until the next morning when they called us and said, Can you send your your other son who's living in Israel down to the morgue and television to identify your son? We actually, we sent my son, and then at the last minute, I remember telling my husband, don't send Sweet, don't let his last memory of Davi be this. So we we asked the cousin to go and identify my son Davi. But really at that point, we we didn't need identification because the Mir Roshiva had gone down and he had identified my Davi. My Davi, like I said, was learning there. He was he had a proper shore, he had a student visa, everything was in order. There was like everything was done by the book. And unfortunately, there were two Mir Bachram who were there at the time. Davi and his friend Yesse Kohn, they were NIFTR together holding hands, and and from that day on, Fakey 2.0 now exists.

SPEAKER_11 55:41

Oh my goodness. It is so like so a whole night. You didn't like really know for sure, like a whole night. Are you sort of new, but it wasn't confirmed?

SPEAKER_06 55:49

No, we we actually they kept saying that your son's name isn't on the list, so he must be okay. He must be okay. Maybe he was injured. But for me as a mother, I know it sounds crazy. I I said there's just something wrong. He's not okay. And I I must have left him hundreds of messages that night on his on his phone saying, Debbie, you better call me. Because if you don't call me and and and I hear from someone else that you're okay, I'm gonna kill you. Like that was my message to him. When I played back all those messages, I really left over a hundred messages. Debbie, where are you? Are you okay? Dovey, are you alive? Like, if you're not alive, how are you gonna answer me? But like that was me and my crazy. But I I needed to get in touch with him, but we obviously we couldn't. But I I remember um I had been saying Tahillum all night, and there were Tahelim links and chats, and everyone was saying Tahillum. And I remember calling my my school friend who happens to live in Montreal at like two in the morning. I said, Harold, there's something so wrong. She goes, What do you mean? Like, why? Because I said, The Tahelim that I've been saying my whole like life, like from the same Tahilim, especially since I got married, I use a very specific tahilim and art scroll, you know, not the interlinear, the side by side. I said, I practically know Tehelim by heart. I know the translation, but the words were so empty. They were like, they did they didn't mean anything to me. And I said, I know there's something wrong because it's not comforting me, this tahilum. It's it's like as if I'm I'm speaking in Chinese, the words mean nothing. And she hung up on me and she yells at me before she hung up, she's like, You're crazy. But I I really I felt it. There was just something wrong.

unknown 57:22

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 57:22

And then we got a conversation.

SPEAKER_11 57:24

Oh my goodness. I the truth is, yeah, I'm not surprised. I mean, our six senses like they kick in. We we know, like our bodies know, like without you know, without it being confirmed. Wow. So let's go back to like the airport. I know that you know you told us the story um last time when you came on, and you told us how you were yelling at them that like you can't take anything from me anymore, you already took everything, let me go through. So I guess my question is really like how that shifted today. Like, do you still feel like you have nothing left anymore?

SPEAKER_06 57:53

I don't think I have nothing left, but a very big part of me ceased to exist. Because, you know, every loss is very difficult. Loss of a parent is very difficult, a loss of a spouse is very difficult. I don't want to take anything away from anyone, but the only loss that's really an extension of you is losing a child. A part of me was ripped away. And I had no time to prepare myself psychologically, mentally, physically. There was no prep. It just happened so suddenly. It was, it was a trauma in itself, just the way it happened. You know, unfortunately, when a child is sick, you have time to like kind of wrap your brain around it. I mean, we all know that, you know, in the Torah that says that, you know, they dab and Yaakov's Daven, that people should get sick before they die. But I didn't have time for that. Like, it just, it was, it happened. And then all of a sudden things were moving at such a quick speed. I had to get from Montreal to New York, from New York to Artistral. From Archis, once I landed, I had to get to the Le Valle. Then from the Le Valle, we went to Harmanujos, and then I had to go sit Shiva for a few hours, and then I had to leave back to New York to sit Shiva there because no one was able to enter Canada to be Menachamavalas because of COVID restrictions. So much happened in such a short period of time, even like finding a place for his cavear, actually. You can't really buy spots in Harhamanuchos anymore. But my aunt and uncle had plots, and we had to call an architect to see if the mountain, the side of the mountain where we wanted to put our son Davy, would be strong enough to hold him up. So we had to get an architect involved. All this had to happen with a matter of hours. And there were so many little details. So can you take anything more away from me? I don't want to go there, but a lot was taken from me. And I take that whole package that happened then, and it's becomes it moves with me wherever I am. It's part of me. It became part of my persona. It's, you know, the shock then, the trauma then was beyond. I couldn't physically breathe. It was, I had to constantly. On just getting air into my body, breathing, inhaling, and exhaling. I don't have to do that anymore at this point. It's more natural. But um it's always there. The grief is always the pain doesn't go away. It doesn't cease, it doesn't stop existing. It's it's part of me. I just learn how to cover it up better, you know. And Bar Hashem, I'm I'm very lucky I've had Simchos since, but it's you can have two opposing emotions at the same time.

SPEAKER_11 1:00:29

Is the pain the same intense or no?

SPEAKER_06 1:00:32

So it's, you know, it's funny because I just had this discussion with someone. They say time heals all wounds. No, it doesn't heal the wound, but it takes away the intensity of that that first blow, of that shock that you feel. Like I said, I couldn't physically breathe then. I literally I couldn't stand. My legs could not hold me up. My legs could hold me up now. The shock is not as great now, four four and a half years plus later. The the pain is just as intense. I will not say that the pain is not as intense. It's the shock that's not as intense because now I'm also a little bit more savvy how to how to cover it up, how to filter, how to know what my triggers are. I I take the pain with me. Grief is my my plus one companion at any given moment. And I I've used this analogy, and this is, and I really feel I've told this to many people. Grief is my plus one companion. It accompanies me everywhere. When I first found out about my son when he was NIFTER, the pain was so overwhelming, so all-encompassing that I allowed grief to be the very dominant one in the relationship. It was able to control me, it was able to tell me what to do, how to do, when to do. I was physically and emotionally finished. I was gone. I was sick. But as time moved on and I was able to become a stronger person emotionally and physically, I became the dominant one in the grief relationship. And I can tell grief when it, when it's allowed to rear its head and when it's allowed to take control. And there are days, whether it's a birthday, a yard site, sometimes before Yamcev, sometimes even on Yamce, where I say grief, today is your day. You're in charge because tomorrow I'm back and I'll be back in charge tomorrow. I'll be stronger tomorrow. But right now, today, I need a break. I need a break. And you get to be in charge, you get to tell me if I could stay in bed, if I could do nothing, if I could read a book, if I don't have to answer the phone, you're in charge, but it's always there. The grief doesn't go away, it becomes part of you.

SPEAKER_11 1:02:38

Wow. It's described to um I like how you describe the relationship that you decide who's in charge. I never like heard that description before. That's really strong. It's really powerful. It is. So can we talk about the samchhas? I guess I want to so you made first a bar mitzvah and then a wedding.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:56

So last year, my actually, it's I'm sorry, it's not even last year, it's almost two years already, because his birthday is a Sarbutevis. I I celebrated my youngest son, my fifth boy, his bar mitzvah. It was gonna be the first personal simcha, meaning I had grandchildren, so those were simils, but I wasn't the one, I wasn't the Bala simcha. Like I wasn't making the kiddish, I wasn't making the bris. The bris, oh my gosh, that's a whole other story. But my son's bar mitzvah.

SPEAKER_10 1:03:23

Grandchildren are named after him.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:24

I have one grandson who was named after him. Yeah, I only have one grandson who was born since, and it was very difficult. We could talk about that. What you want, what you think you want, and what you get. So I made my son's bar mitzvah. It was a Sarbatavis two years ago, actually came out on Friday. So we fasted on Friday, went straight into the simcha Friday night. So it was like, it was like the shortest Friday of the year. So uh a lot of prep work involved. Like I knew that this is gonna be a simcha that people might say inappropriate things or thoughtless things because people don't always know how to talk or what to say. So I remember my daughter standing outside my bathroom door and she's like, Mommy, who are you talking to? I'm like, to myself. Literally, for about two weeks before my son's harmisvah, I would lock my bathroom door, I would stand in front of the mirror, and I would practice answers to people's stupid questions. Like any scenario that I could think of, I practice how I would answer them with a smile on my face, trying to be sincere, meanwhile, rolling my eyes and you know, in my imagination. But really, I tried. I also knew I didn't want a pet peeve of mine, is like when people pet your shoulders or they try to like hugging is by simple, yeah, everyone gives a you know, ear kiss and the hug. So that I knew what to expect because I do that also. It's just, you know, social etiquette. But the people who pet your arms like go away. Like that to me is the worst. So I went shopping with something in mind. I bought myself a beautiful dress that had very structured shoulder padded shoulders. So like you couldn't really get to my arms and my shoulders because they were very well protected. And I bought myself very, very high heels, like literally between three and a half and four inch heels, which I never wear such high heels, but I figured if I'm five, seven and I wear such high heels, I'll be like five ten plus. And I made myself untouchable so no one could like really come too close to me because I was so tall and so overpowering. And I made sure to have my makeup done and my shades all, and I got fabulous jewelry. And I did my best to make sure everyone shouldn't say it's her first simchat. She's not managing, she's not coping. I wanted to like take away any concerns that anyone had, and I probably should get an award. I did it really well, but it was important. I wanted to show the world, like, it's okay. Like, leave me alone. Don't pet me, don't touch me. I'm dealing with it.

SPEAKER_11 1:05:51

But did you also feel like almost like like guilt? Like everyone thinks I'm really okay and I'm not?

SPEAKER_06 1:05:56

Like everyone thinks there's no guilt. I feel no guilt. I don't owe anyone an explanation for any of my emotions at any time. My emotions are mine and I own them. And I'm not gonna ever apologize for anything. I'm not. I went through a trauma. I went through something that was unexplainable and completely out of the ordinary. It was it was not a normal situation. My emotions can be not normal because it's a response to something abnormal. And I'm not gonna apologize. No, I I you know I try to feel explained.

SPEAKER_11 1:06:29

Like, oh, I look good and I'm happy and I really am happy, but don't don't think I'm not thinking about my son.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:34

I'm still thinking no, no, no, I I don't have to apologize for that. My son is with me 24-7. He's he's a part of my life, he's a part of who I am now. Everything that I do, every action that I take or make, he's with me. I I'm not saying I physically feel him, but because of what happened, I will never forget him because I'm not the same person I was. I've evolved into a different person, and that person has very different reactions to the person I I used to be.

SPEAKER_13 1:07:06

Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:06

So no, I don't have to apologize to anyone. And no one should have to apologize.

SPEAKER_11 1:07:10

No, no one should feel that they have to. What about your son, the Bermitzvah boy? Was this hard for him? That his brother wasn't here.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:18

You know, we took we we had a photographer come and we took a picture of all the boys, and there was one who was very noticeably absent, and you know, the boys were joking, if Davi was here, do you know what he would do? And it was a joke, but I think everybody's really crying on the inside, and they tried to make light of it. But we really made the simcha as special as we could for my son. Whatever he wanted, we did. He wanted to have music, so Matsashaba, so we made him lava malka with music for him. He very much wanted to have a pizza bar. So we really tried to make the simcha as special for him as possible. We probably overcompensated, which we, you know, as parents, we tend to do.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:58

But that's okay. We're allowed to. Wow. Wow. And then when your son got married, when was that?

SPEAKER_11 1:08:05

That was more recently?

SPEAKER_06 1:08:07

So my son got married this past August, Bar Hashan. And that was like very hard because like I felt like I was skipping a child. Like my my fourth son was not supposed to get married before my third son. Like, wasn't supposed to happen like that. Not in my mind. Obviously, it was meant to happen like that. So I remember I was at an appointment right before the engagement, and I I sent my aunt, who lost her husband, who was actually shared the same name as my son. I sent my aunt a message that said, Toby, I can't believe Imara Sasham Akiva's getting engaged, and we're gonna be marrying him off. And we never even made David a wedding. And she answered me back, he's probably upstairs in Shemayim with Berish, my uncle, drinking Lachayim and laughing at you. And he probably got married and found a really cute girl upstairs. And I was like, if she's not drop dead gorgeous, I'm gonna kill him. Because if he got married without me, how dare he! And she was like, Are you out of your mind? You like that's all you care about? I'm like, no, but like, how could he get married without me? Like, but this was humor. Like, it was it was a very, very emotional time for me. I mean, I went to the wedding where um I was very lucky. I had a tremendous amount of friends who came, new friends, old friends, people who I had met at different organizations for people who have lost children, who have become my newfound friends and family. And they all made an effort to come, but I knew that the chuppa would be long. There would be a lot of singing, and I kept thinking to myself, I hope my gown is straight. I hope I I when we walk down, my min-hug is I I wear like a small scarf on top of my shadel, and I kept thinking, like, I hope it's perfect until the colo came was close to like 40 minutes like of singing and this and that. And I was like, this chuppa is forever. I am not gonna shed a tear. I am not gonna blink my eyes. Everybody's watching me, everybody looking at me so closely, and I'm gonna show them all I could do it. And I remember thinking to myself, okay, I could do it. And then at one point my Mahtina still held my hand. I was thinking to myself, just let go because this is gonna just throw me off. Because like any kind of physical touch would just like, I wouldn't be able to handle it. So like I remember letting go of her hand, and then finally they they broke the glass, and everyone's muzzle tub, I was like, I did it. I did it, I survived the chapa. And I remember when, you know, everyone comes to wish you mazzles hub after the chapa. My friends were like, How did you do that? How did you stand there just looking straight ahead and not cry? I said, we can't discuss it. Like, I don't know. Like, I just said, Hashim, like, I I need to get through this. And and thank God I did. I mean, it was a very emotional night. And I I got home, of course. I I was a mess at night after the wedding at three in the morning. But during the wedding, I had made a conscious decision. I'm going to enjoy my son's wedding. It's his wedding. I can't take it away from him. He got an amazing girl, I have a an adorable new daughter-in-law. Why should why should my pain ruin their semcha? So we figured it out. We carried two opposing emotions at the same time.

SPEAKER_11 1:11:23

So interesting. When my kids got married, my well, my first son got married, so um, it's different because it's not a child, but still, like it was hard for me that my parents went here and two siblings, and I was like, I'm just gonna cry. Like, I don't care what people think. I I just wanna if the tears are coming, I'm letting them come. And that's for me a huge thing because I'm like petrified of like, you know, crying in public and people seeing it. I was like, I'm just not spending the wedding fighting them back. And I cried straight through the chuppah. I got comments about how much I was crying, and I was like, I was, I didn't even realize that. And then I look at the pictures, I'm like, oh my, I'm really crying. But afterwards, like the tears stopped and the joy was so intense, you know, and it felt so I felt good to do it that way, you know.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:00

But everyone has to do what works for them. Like, I guess I'm too vain. I didn't want my makeup running, but I was like, no, I'm not gonna cry. I'm not gonna shed a tear. Because if I shed one tear, I'm done for. It it's not one. Right. It's a million. It's my entire being, so it was all or nothing, and I went for, no, I'm not doing it. Right.

SPEAKER_11 1:12:22

Wow. Okay, that's amazing. Let me ask you something like this. Like, I know you spoke back, you know, right after it happened to a lot of Gdolim, and there was nothing really anyone could tell you. Like you wanted your son, and there was nothing else they were able to hear. But I'm curious because I find also, again, with me, sometimes an earlier message is like you, and then like later, I'm like, oh, you know, that's helpful. So I'm wondering if there's any messages that you couldn't take in then, but that you could take in now.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:44

So, really, a lot of what the the the Hasidic Rabbas and the the Litfisha Adam Gadals and the Mikobalam said, a lot of it went over me. Like, I wasn't ready to hear it. I don't think I'm gonna ever be ready to hear what they said, because Allah was very like lofty and and and and frou-frou, and that's that's not who I am. I I need real answers. I need practical. And there, I mean, I I I told you that story with Rapsha Mangalai, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:13:13

I forgot.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:15

So it was at, I don't remember when we did the last podcast, but this was at the two-year mark of the yard site that we went to see Rapshim Mangalai. We had met him at a wedding, a cousin's wedding of mine in Lakewood, and he told us he gave us a bracha, we should have Minucha Senefish, and we should have Kayak. And while we come to our so we should, we should go visit him. So this is after two years, I had not slept properly. I was like, my body was craving sleep. I wasn't normal. I was, I was going literally losing my mind. Like, I think I had tried every concoction of sleeping pills together that my doctor prescribed, and nothing worked. So I just went off of them. I had to actually wean myself off of them because you can't even stop cold turkey. But with my doctor's help, I was able to do that, thank God. And they weren't really doing anything, anyways, because I hadn't slept. And then I decided by the two-year yardsite when we went to our sister that we were going to go see Revshim Galay. I didn't know who he was before, but I started asking people because I knew I was going to him, and everyone said his Ruha Kodesh, he sees things, he knows things. And if anyone has the answer, it's him. So I made a very like I told my husband, this is it. This is our last stop. Like, I'll get a bracha from a rub, from a Rebbe, a cobal. I have no problem with that. But I'm not, I'm not going to ask any more questions. I'm going to him and he's going to give me the answer, and that's it. Whatever he says, that's the answer. And we drove Thursday to Carry Aut Safer because he was staying by his son's house, and we knocked on the door, and his daughter, his daughter-in-law answered the door. He's like, She's, why are you here? And my husband explained that we have an appointment. And she's like, My father-in-law is not seeing anyone. I was like, bury me alive right now. Because, like, you're so embarrassed. It's Thursday night, everyone's cooking for Chavez. But at the end, she realized that we really did have an appointment, and she led us in to wait. And I thought it would be our turn first. We would speak to him and we would leave. Meanwhile, three other people came. They all, of course, went before us. So uh it doesn't work like in America, first come first, serve different concept completely. And then it was our turn. And my Revgalay was sitting at the head of the table, then was my husband, and then I sat next to my husband, and he he looked at me, Revgalay, and he said, Come sit right next to me. I want to be able to hear you, and I want you to be able to hear me. And I was like so impressed. Like he was so great, great. Like he was his sitkas was amazing. Like you, you felt it. You knew you were in the presence of greatness. And he asked us if we prefer Yiddish or Hebrew. And I, you know, my husband said we prefer Yiddish, so we spoke in Yiddish. And he right away he asked, My husband, do you have any questions? Now, my husband, not from the get-go, not from the very second that we heard the news, did he once question or falter in his amuna? Because he really accepts everything Bahawa, and and it's just it's second nature to him. It's probably first nature to him. And I am his polar opposite. I need answers, I need to analyze and I overanalyze. And so my husband says, I don't have any questions, but my wife has questions. So he turned to me and he asked me, and the words were literally like they were just tumbling out of my mouth. Like, why did this happen? Why did this happen to my family? Why did this happen to me? Why did this happen to my son? Why did there have to be 45 Kadosha? Why couldn't there be just 44? Like that would have been enough. Like, why, like, why? And he looked at me and I knew that this was it. I was getting my answer. Like, I was like, I knew I was gonna sleep that night. Like, could you imagine two years you're waiting to get an answer and you made a decision, this is it? You're not asking anymore, whatever he says. And he looked at me with tears streaming down his face, and he threat he said three words. That's it.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:53

And yiddish, he said, Ich weißnish, I don't know. And I was like, I couldn't breathe. I was like, I waited two years to hear I I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:03

But he said it. He wasn't giving me, giving me any fluff, he wasn't giving me any any frou-frou, he wasn't giving me any kabbalistic answers. He was just telling me the real answer. I don't know. Like, we don't know. And I knew in that second, like the two years of all those questions that I had, my heart and my mind finally connected, and I realized I'm never getting an answer. I'm not privy to that, that kind of information. When Hashem wants to reveal the plan, Mashiach will come and then I'll know, but that's it. And then of course he went on to tell me that my husband and I have to continue this animamam initiative that we started. And I'm like, I said, but I'm so tired. I remember saying, like, I was so exhausted. And I said, I don't have the energy. He looked at me, he goes, This is your tafkid. And every time you talk about a Muna and you talk about animamam, it's a it's a Naliya for your son's Nishama. And then he was just like, Good chabba saying, goodbye. And that was it. There was no answer. But he was so honest and so real. Like he he couldn't give me an answer because there wasn't. There's no answer. And it was the first time I was able to finally accept it. I had opened myself up enough to accept I'll never get the answer. And I needed a Godzilla like him to tell me that, the way he told it to me.

SPEAKER_11 1:18:23

You needed a Godzilla like him, and you probably also needed the two years to kind of accept the shock a little bit for Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:30

I did, I a hundred percent. But it was also a very con I'm not asking anymore. Like, I don't go to Reba's anymore or or to like any other Godzilla's or McCobal. I don't ask them why, because like I already know I'm not getting an answer. That's it.

SPEAKER_11 1:18:45

During those two years, like people answered your why a little bit, or not really?

SPEAKER_06 1:18:49

They try to, but no one ever gave me a you know, it's a it's a it's a kapara for this, it should have been that. You think I want to hear my son was a kapara for Claudia Sol?

SPEAKER_07 1:19:00

Right, no.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:01

No, he was he's my son. Don't don't don't take him away from me. Could you imagine how much worse it could have been? No, it could not have been any worse. My child is not here with me. It doesn't get worse than that. So don't don't don't try and make me feel better. It could have been worse. That the cloud could have suffered more. The clow suffered. I'm not saying that the cloud did not feel my my pain. They did. But they went on with their lives and they continued their lives. And Bar Hashem, that's that's the way it should be. But my life as I knew it ceased. It's it's over, it's finished. You know, my son doesn't have children. I there's no continuation, there's no continuity. It's over, it's final.

SPEAKER_11 1:19:42

Wow. And if you would say that to a Godzilla, they would say his continuity is the Animaman Foundation. No?

SPEAKER_06 1:19:49

Right. But that that doesn't that doesn't give me a conversation with my son. All the amazing things. Yes, I'm not I'm not taking away, and there's this there are many Sifraitorah that were written Ily Nishmasan, and they Are beautiful. It's not my son. I can't talk to him. I can't pick up the phone and say, Davi, how is your day? Or how's your wife? Or how are your children? There aren't any. That's it. It's over. Even like Brahmasham, I have a, you know, I very much wanted a ch uh a grandchild named after my son.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:17

And, you know, now I have it, but it's painful. They call him the same name, they call him Davi.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:24

No, so my daughter-in-law is first of all, they had to add a name. They had to add a name because that's what that's what we were all told. So his name is Akiva Yesahar Dove Barish. Very long name, a very big mouthful. He was born on the Ramhal's yard side. The Ramhal is his name was Mosha Khayan. That's my father-in-law's name. We could not give that name. Was a Gilgol for Rabbi Akiva, buried right next to Rabbi Akiva. So they added the name Akiva, and he was born Show's time. So very befitting name. They call him Dove, but my daughter-in-law, she called me up, she says, Ma, you call him whatever you feel comfortable calling him. We're calling him Dove because I don't like the nicknames. Like my granddaughter is Malka. He's Dove. They give the name. Like they call by the name she doesn't like any, you know, any nicknames. So great. But um I remember everyone at the Brist, it was Erav Schwuz. Like Schwis was in the following day. And people came over to me and they were like, it's so beautiful they gave your son's name. I'm thinking to myself, really? Really? That's beautiful that they had to give their brother's name? What's so beautiful about that? That means that he's not here. And I realized that if somebody gave the name, he's never coming back. It was, it was like really final. I I told this to someone, I said, you know, Brahsham, I had two granddaughters born within the year that my son was Neftar. And I remember when they were, there were two girls. I mean, I was very grateful for the girls, but I was like, you couldn't give me one boy? Like, really? I I just want the name. And when I did get the did get the name two years later, I wanted to shoot a gun at everyone who said, It's so nice, they gave the name. Really? This was a name that probably never would have been given because it's already going back four generations. But now they gave the name. This would have been like a lost name in the family. Like no one's giving you Sakhar Dove Verish because it's like my great-grandfather, it's their great-great-grandfather. And unfortunately, there are names that are closer to gives. So it's like, you know, you you want the name, but when they give a name, it's it's it's hard. It's real. It becomes very real all of a sudden that it's that's it.

SPEAKER_11 1:22:36

So what happens when you call him or look at him? You think of your son, or you just see a cute little No, it's it's interesting.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:42

He's my only grandchild that looks nothing like like like our family.

SPEAKER_14 1:22:47

How funny.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:48

He looks nothing. So like when I look at him, he's just luchtig and he's full of light, and he's absolutely adorable. But he doesn't look like my son. He doesn't look like my kids. He looks like the other side. So it's like, okay, Hashem, you were good to me. Like if you see my grandchildren and you were to drop him off in some foreign country, they would be returned to sender. They would all come back to my house. My grandkids look like Saimitz's, not like me, like my husband's side of the family, but there's such a strong resemblance. I I could have given birth to all my grandchildren.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:17

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:17

Except for this one. This one is like, where did you come from?

SPEAKER_09 1:23:20

So funny. It's so interesting.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:22

That's almost good to me. I I don't take it for granted. I think it would have been very, very hard had he looked like my child. I do have another grandson, my oldest grandson. I literally could take baby pictures of him and my sons and like I don't know who's who.

SPEAKER_12 1:23:37

Wow. Wow.

SPEAKER_11 1:23:39

That's so funny. That's so cute. So let's talk about the animam foundation. Did it like change that your connection with the grow in the beginning? You really had a hard time with it, right?

SPEAKER_06 1:23:48

Listen, I still have a very hard time. When they start playing anim, I'm like, deep breath, deep breath, deep breath. It's not my favorite song. Um, I remember my husband kept saying, You have to start saying the animums. I'm like, don't tell me what to do. You do your thing, I'll do mine. About, I would say, probably six to seven months ago, I started saying them, like, it takes really, I always say it takes 90 seconds. I just couldn't get myself to say them because if you think about them, kind of lose, you think you're in control, but the animams really show you that you're not in control of anything. And I I had a hard time letting go. And it took about those few months till I was able to like finally say them. I think I just like said them like very quickly from like my my to feel us see safer and like I didn't think about it. But now I actually I read them and you know, I understand them and I, you know, internalize what they say. It's it's not always easy, but you know, it it's part of my evolving. The foundation still is my husband's baby. He very much is into it. He gets all the emails and he loves to hear all the stories of the people who say that it changed their lives for the better. And I I'm happy for him. I'm happy that he has this. You know, he worked very hard on it and Kalakabod. For me, I I do other things. I definitely do other things. Leela Nishma's my son. I do an event for women every single year. That's my once a year that I devote to it. A lot of work goes into it. But it's not my constant, you know, project, so to speak.

SPEAKER_11 1:25:23

Right, right. So interesting how really everyone has their like own way and their own thing, and it's so good. You you're so like healthy. Like he can do his thing and you could do it your way, and like you're you're good.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:35

You have to find your niche and see what what talks to you. Like, why would I do something that doesn't like call to me? It doesn't like doesn't make me feel better. Like I want to devote myself to doing something that makes me feel that I'm I'm doing something Lila Nishma's my son.

SPEAKER_11 1:25:50

So can we talk about the Mayorm Shabbatone? How how many years have you gotten to it so far?

SPEAKER_06 1:25:54

So I actually went only once before.

SPEAKER_11 1:25:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:58

I met some incredible, incredible people there, some that I still keep up with, and it's really amazing. Just to be in a place where you don't have to wear a mask because basically everyone that's there has unfortunately suffered the loss. So they're your peers. They're they're your equals, they're not any different than you. Their stories are different. Everyone has a different story, of course. But there's a camaraderie, there's this, it's it's a safe haven. And there's something very comforting in knowing that you can sit down and drink a drink or have a coffee or eat a piece of cake or sit at the suda. And if you want to talk, great. And if you don't want to talk, that's great too, because you don't have to explain yourself. You know, you're allowed to be you for who you are. And it's it's just like I say, it's a safe place. And everyone needs to have that place where they feel comfortable and safe and and that they don't have to protect themselves.

SPEAKER_11 1:26:53

It's so amazing. And you're it's the only organization that has these shabbatons. I think the only organization for like the full family, right? So, like, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:00

Do you have only I have gone to other shabbatons? One's very, very Hasidish, another one is for loss of adult children. So that's also I I have to say, it's it's niche and it's nice to go with someone who's, you know, because when you go to Maryam, it's loss of a child from any age. And sometimes I can relate better to than others. You know, I do have uh sometimes a hard time relating to people who've, you know, lost like very young infants because it's just a very different, it's a different kind of loss. It's a loss and you cannot take away the pain. It's it pierces your soul to the very, you know, there's no other way to say it. It's it doesn't matter how old a child is. It's just I personally have a harder time relating to to that age group. But but when you're sitting around a bunch of mothers, it's it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_11 1:27:47

And do your children come with you? You're I guess two younger ones?

SPEAKER_06 1:27:51

So my my kids came the first time. The second time that may that we were invited and and it was open to us, we didn't go, we had a family simcha. And last year we actually were registered to go, and I got sick and I I couldn't travel. I was so I was like high fever, science effect. I was so sick. I was like, they're having a job as ho without us. I was like, and my husband's like, just take your child and all. Like I was not a functioning human being. So this year, my daughter's in seminary narrative, so she is definitely not coming home. Um, and my 15-year-old son is not coming. He doesn't want to come, it's not his thing, and he's not such a people person, and you know what? That's that's fine. He deals with with his emotions his own way, and he's very healthy. And I just feel like there's so many people that I would like to, you know, connect with, and it's the perfect time.

SPEAKER_11 1:28:41

Right, right. It's really, it's so um, it's so amazing what they do. Like, I'm not I'm not really involved in getting it, I'm not involved with it much at all. But I'm on the chat and I see all the messages of, you know, oh, we have to.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:53

No, it's really like I remember last time I went, like they first we did like like a paint workshop. It was so much fun. Like, we can't paint. Like, let's be real. Like, most people do not, and I mean, we were just laughing at just like how ridiculous we're a bunch of grown women sitting here doing like a paint day, and like nobody, like the picture that we all produce did not look anything like the original. And we just we laughed so hard about it. And then, like the meals Friday night, and then just sitting around afterwards, just talking in shop this morning. You know, if you want to go to show, go to shoal. Don't go to shoal, it's fine. You know, everyone found their group that they wanted that they were able to connect to.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:31

It was so like nice, it was comfortable.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:35

That's what it was. It was just so comfortable, no ears about anyone. You know, we are who we are. Take us as we are, and it was just nice, it was so pleasant. And they also have a lot of good things. It's no frills, it's no frills. Like, I love that job. It's like, come as you are. You want to wear makeup, don't wear makeup. You want to wear makeup, wear makeup. You don't want to wear makeup, don't wear makeup. You wanna uh get yourself dressed to the nines, do that. You don't want to, that's fine too. Everything works, and it's just it's so nice to know that you're welcome. Doesn't matter what you look like, who you are, where you come from. Everyone's the same. Everyone just has a different story.

SPEAKER_11 1:30:12

Let me ask you a question. If you would meet a mother that would say, but tell you that she lost more than one child, would you like be horrified and want to run away from her? Or would you still feel like you could connect to her?

SPEAKER_06 1:30:23

So it happens to be that a friend of mine, I can't remember if I met her at Mayrim or not. It's very possible I did for the first time, but it's a little bit foggy. And I met her over the years a few times, and she kept in touch with me. I don't know her well, but her grandson recently got married in Montreal, and she invited me to the wedding. So I said, you know what, I'm gonna go say Maslow's hub. So I went early. My husband was out of town, and she actually lost two children. She is an incredible mother, an incredible human being. And she invited me. So I said, okay, let me go. I know what it's like to make an out-of-town simcha and not have so many people or not know so many people. So I went. I went early. If I tell you I was the guest of honor, she was so excited. She was so happy. I was so grateful that I went to say Masl's Hav because she felt like a million dollars. This is my friend. Like she came, she doesn't realize that the hall is like 10 minutes away. But like, you know what? For me, I was grateful because you know what? I got to enjoy her simple. I got to see how happy she is. Because sometimes, you know, you go to a Shabbos and you get to see a lot of heaviness. But here I got to see sheer joy, pure nachas, and enjoy. I was so grateful that you get to see two sides of a coin. Sometimes you get to see the heaviness, but you also get to see the laughter and the lightness. And I was so grateful. No, I unfortunately losing two children is, I mean, it's not the norm. Losing a child altogether is not a norm. Two is for sure not the norm. My heart goes out to anyone who has to go through such a loss more than once because it takes a toll. It takes a toll on you. It takes a toll on your family, it takes a toll on your friends, on everyone who's who you're connected to. So it is hard, but it doesn't scare me. It doesn't make the person less than, more than. It just makes them who they are and you take them as they are.

SPEAKER_11 1:32:12

Right. So I heard from parents the reason that I asked is because I heard parents like say that, like, it's like almost like no one wants to talk to them, almost as if it's contagious. Like, oh my gosh, like such a thing happens, forget it. Like, don't I don't want to know you.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:29

Because if you lost your child, for sure, the next person's gonna lose their child. I mean, people still don't like can't look at me or don't, you know. We're coming up this year, Log Bomber will be the five-year mark. And you would think that like you can you can say hello to me on the street. Nothing's gonna happen if you look in my direction, but people still will cross the street. But those are the people you know what I don't want to associate with.

SPEAKER_13 1:32:50

Right, right.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:51

I don't want to have any if you can't like be on the same side of the street as me, no, you're not worth my time. Are you scared of five years? Five years is is an anniversary. Every year is an anniversary, but five years It's like five years, like there's something to found. So I was actually, you know, I'm working on my auntie momum event for you know, before Lag Bummer, and I was thinking, like, what am I gonna say? And like the only thing I came up with is when you ask a child how old they are and they say, I'm a whole hand. It's it's like, it's like it's so exciting, right? Five years. It's it's you can show five years in one hand. I'm thinking to myself, that's the child's interpretation of five years. And my interpretation is it's it's an eternity, it's a lifetime. It's five years of memories which aren't so crystal clear anymore. They're a little foggy, a little hazy. Do I remember everything so clearly, or did I make that up? Like I question myself sometimes. So five years, a lot happened. A lot happened in five years. And I've come a long way. I've worked on myself, I've I've done the work, I've I've I've accepted that this is who I am. Doesn't make it easier. I think five years makes it that much harder because I still remember. Does everyone else remember the horror of what happened five years ago? And I don't want people to forget. Like every parent's worst nightmare is to have their child be forgotten. So five years, a lot of people forget.

SPEAKER_11 1:34:12

Five years is a scary number. It just there's something about five that you know that just makes it so hard.

SPEAKER_06 1:34:19

I recently spoke to a mother and she told me it's 20 years since she lost her child. I said, 20 years? I didn't even realize it was this long. I said, How did you live with this for 20 years? And she said, A lot of hard work. A lot of tears and a lot of hard work. And I was like, five years was so long.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:40

But 20 years? That's that's that's my son was 21.

SPEAKER_06 1:34:45

Like, that's that's like his whole life almost. I I really like I couldn't breathe from her. And uh she did the work also. She, you know Wow.

SPEAKER_11 1:34:54

Ugh, such a like I don't know. I interviewed a mother recently and her son was Nifter. Way more than 20 years, because I think it was in 1983 or something like that. The way she talked about him, and I asked her, I said, look at how you like your memories are so clear of who he was and his sickness and when he was actually niftar and what was going on around that. I'm like, but you're you're like a happy person. Like, this is what we were talking about on the phone, because then I said something like you moved on, and I was like, oops, I meant to say you look forward.

SPEAKER_06 1:35:23

You take every emotion, every emotion, like you said 1998, that's over 30 years ago. She took everything from that period of time, and it's traveled with her over the last 30 years. I mean, the last four and a half plus years have come with me. I mean, the ups, lots of downs, a lot of good days, some bad days, triggers. You know, before Yantiv, don't call me. Don't ask me for a favor before Yantiv. The answer is no. I'm in survival mode. I can't do more. I, you know, I'm limited. I could only give so much of myself, and I know what I can or cannot do. And before Yemtiv, I can't give. I cannot give. I can't do more than just getting through cooking and doing my basics for Yemtiv. I'm grateful for that. And sometimes I even have to order because I just can't get it together because it's so hard. It's a trigger Yemtiv. It's family time, and the whole family is not here together.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:24

Right, right.

SPEAKER_06 1:36:26

You know, I have friends who tell me they they take family simha pictures and they always hold a child a picture of their child who's not there. And for me, I that's not who I am. I've accepted my son is not here and my family looks different. And I I I'm not gonna hold up a picture of my son in the family picture. I I can't do that. That's that's not me because it's not to me, it's not real. Like that, it's it's the nature of my personality. Everyone has to do what works for them, but they're like, so you're not gonna remember your child. I said, No, it's it's a constant reminder. When my child's not in the family picture, I don't need to show that he's not there. I see he's not there. He's missing.

SPEAKER_11 1:37:02

Right, right. It's right. Other people don't have to see it. It's your pain, it's yours.

SPEAKER_06 1:37:07

It's my pain. I it's a constant reminder. I have a picture, you know, by my son's wedding, they took a picture of all the siblings. There was one missing. There was. There was one person who was not there.

SPEAKER_11 1:37:17

Okay. I guess before we end, is there anything that that you want to share with newly bereaved versus not so newly bereaved, or maybe you're still considered newly bereaved, so you don't want to go there? I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 1:37:27

So it's funny, there's so many different articles that people have sent me, and they all center around the same thing. Like, don't be afraid to say their name. Don't be afraid to mention my child's name. I so appreciate when I get a phone call or somebody sends me a picture. I just found this, or you know, did you hear the story about the time this and this happened? I don't shy away from that. I I embrace those moments because to me, it means that somebody remembers me, that someone thought about me, that someone is not scared to remember. And I'm so grateful. My daughter went to seminary this year, and she she has a very large room. She has eight roommates, and it's a big room. And she said, like one roommate, you know, was roommate with her brother. The brother was a roommate with one of my other sons. And then one girl came over to her and said, Are you Debbie Simus' sister? And she was already rolling her eyes, thinking to herself, This is the roommate I'm never talking to. And then the girl continued and says, I know your brother because he used to eat by me all the time when he was in yeshiva and lakewood. I could tell you the craziest stories about him. And that was like, phew. She was able to breathe my my daughter and say, I'm not a pity case. I'm not somebody's, you know, Nebach. Like they're gonna tell me funny things. And she she was happy. Somebody was celebrating a funny memory with her. And I also feel like, tell me, tell me what you remember. You know, I want to know because knowing gives me, gives me new memories. I I can't make new memories. That's it. Whatever I have, I have. Nothing new is created, but he's gone. But when you send me, like we we call the pictures that we get that we never had on our phones or whatever in our in our albums, we call it lost footage. When we get them, we're so excited because we don't know when this picture was taken, but now we have it, and we like when did you know we try to make up stories about the picture and it's it's fun, it's nice for us. We we appreciate it. When his friends have have babies and they call to tell us their mazzle tub, they remember Duffy's not forgotten. They remember to call Duffy's mother. I so appreciate it. It's so nice. Don't ever be afraid to say our child's name. My son died in a tragedy. His life was not tragic. Not for a minute. He had a great life. And I don't want anyone to think that the tragedy defines who he was.

SPEAKER_11 1:39:52

Wow. So your message is not to be reef parents, but to all others that are gonna be listening, because plenty of people do listen. Your messages like don't don't be afraid to share memory, don't be afraid to say the name.

SPEAKER_06 1:40:06

Yeah. We we want to hear our kids' name, we want to know they're not forgotten. That gives us the biggest. I mean, for me personally, it gives me a big Nahama.

SPEAKER_11 1:40:14

Okay. Well, thank you so so much for coming in. I really appreciate it. And Miriam, for you, anything, you know that.

SPEAKER_06 1:40:20

We're gonna do anything for you.

SPEAKER_11 1:40:22

Oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_06 1:40:23

Okay, and and I don't even know how to end off. Like only some close from now, Ann? I guess so. Amain, Amain, Amain, Hashem should give everyone some close. Clay's what we need Mashiach to come, and we need just to have Yeshua's and Rafulos and the Hammels and everything that we need, Hashim should give us.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:40

You've just listened to an episode of the Grief Journey Podcast with Miriam Ribiat, brought to you by Mayrim. For more episodes, please visit the Mayrim website at www.mayrim.org. Help us reach others who may benefit from this podcast. If you know someone who might find it meaningful, please consider sharing it with them. If you have questions or comments for the speaker, or if you would like to suggest a guest for a future episode, we would love to hear from you. Email us at podcast at mayrim.org. We look forward to having you join us for the next episode.