Mrs. Shoshana Rieber: The Purple Lady

Dovid was just 17 days away from his bar mitzvah. One night, his mother went in to check on him before she went to sleep.

"Rest in peace," she said as she straightened his blanket.

What? Why would she say those words?

Because perhaps, deep down, she sensed that he was already no longer alive.

The next morning, they discovered that Dovid had returned his neshamah during the night.

It was shocking. It was unimaginable. But this was now their new reality.

It has been about 21 years since Dovid was niftar. Yet Dovid is still very much alive in their home and in their hearts.

Mrs. Rieber has dedicated her life to helping other bereaved parents. She travels wherever she is needed, offering comfort and chizuk to those walking the painful journey she knows so well.

At one point, someone referred to her as "the lady who was wearing purple."

Ever since, she has made sure to wear something purple every day. There has to be a touch of purple, because she is now known as the Purple Lady.

While she spends her days strengthening others, she continues to turn to Hashem for her own strength and for a constant nechamah.

"No one is alone," she says. "No one is alone. But each person has to make the decision to reach out and find support."

YouTube: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsK24OSmIYG_XWzeplhfmb8LJcWKphITh&si=untn3fmHLLaEEFNm

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/relief-from-grief-by-mayrim/id1788349916

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3AvWNp0DrHqE5AVYJHooiK?si=ufpIObuGRumS5uFXmvrpgA 

Questions or feedback? Email me at: podcast@mayrim.org

Transcript

Welcome And Mayrim's Mission

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to the Grief Journey Podcast, hosted by Mrs. Miriam Ribiat and brought to you by Mayrim. Mayrim is an organization dedicated to supporting families who have experienced the loss of a child. It was founded with Iloy Nishma's Nachamaliba and Miriam Holman. Despite her illness, Miriam devoted herself to addressing the needs of parents and siblings navigating the profound pain of child loss. This mission was deeply personal to her, as she had experienced such loss firsthand when her older sister, Nahamaliba, passed away. Mayrim continues to honor and expand upon the work Miriam began, with her parents carrying this mission forward with unwavering dedication. If you have any questions or comments for the speaker, or if you would like to suggest a guest for the podcast, please email us at podcast at mayrim.org.

Meet Shoshana Reber

SPEAKER_03 0:59

Hi everybody, thank you so much for joining me here on the Grief Journey Podcast. Um, today I am happy to introduce you to Mrs. Shoshana Reber, who is a loving mother, grandmother, and daughter. Um and she's very well known as the Purple Lady or Purple Safta. And she'll tell us why that's her name. But first, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_04 1:24

Thank you, Miriam, for asking me to do this.

SPEAKER_03 1:28

Um, yes, so maybe we could start with your story first.

SPEAKER_04 1:31

How I became the purple lady?

SPEAKER_03 1:34

Nope. Uh, how about your story about that?

SPEAKER_04 1:36

Oh, how what brings me to um be known as a grief counselor, as somebody, people that try to help other people in the same situation?

David's Sudden Death Before Bar Mitzvah

unknown 1:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:46

Um, well, uh, 17 days ago, um, our son did not wake up. It was 17 days before his bar mitzvah. So tomorrow would have been his bar mitzvah. Um, he he didn't wake up.

SPEAKER_03 2:02

Okay, that's so how how many years is it?

SPEAKER_04 2:06

It it it is 21 years ago.

SPEAKER_03 2:09

20, okay. I just wanted to clarify because you say 17 days ago, people might really think it's like 17 days.

SPEAKER_04 2:17

So right. Tomorrow our son would have been turning 34 years old, and um they were still had other plans and felt that he finished everything he had to do 17 days before his bar mitzvah.

SPEAKER_03 2:31

Wow. So what what happened? You went into him and like you tried waiting?

SPEAKER_04 2:37

As as um as um I I sleep very my husband and I both don't sleep a lot. I stay up very late, um, and he wakes up very early. So the window was very small. And um David actually that night um it was very getting very close to his bar and mitzvah, and there's a lot going on, and and I'm also a shot son, and I was having an interview in my house that night, and I ensure privacy. So I said to him, David, you have to go to bed, you have to go to bed, you have to go to bed. I don't want to go to bed, I have to do this, I have to do that. I said, David, you don't have to do anything else tonight. You have to go to bed. Well, it was late, but he finally went to sleep. He felt he had he was the gabbaye of the shool next door. I have to give them drinks. It's hot, it's this. David, everybody's gonna be fine. Please go to bed. So um I made him go to sleep. I was a very um mean and uh strong parent, and I made my kids go. It was like 9:30, 10 o'clock at night already. It was very late. Anyway, so um I sent I sent David off to sleep. Um before I go to sleep, which is about uh two o'clock in the morning, usually, before I go to sleep, I check in on all our kids. Um so I go around to whoever's in the house and I check that they're the pillow, the blanket, you know, just different things. And I went in and I covered this one and that one, and in that room there are three children, and so I checked on them, and and then after I covered David, um, I said, Rest in peace. Now I did not realize what I was saying, and we don't always do that because God sometimes puts things into our mouth. But I said that I went to sleep, and when my husband gets up, he gets up about 4, 4:15 in the morning, and then he goes around and checks in on the kids just to see the pillow, the blank, and he found David and he started yelling, call Hatzala, call Hatzala, and I didn't know why, but I we called we called Hatzala, and um Hatzala came and uh right away they tried to um resuscitate him, and um and they were not successful, obviously, but they took him out of the house because they felt um remember it's back then, it's a long time ago. Um, back then they felt there would have been more of an issue if he had been pronounced NIFTER in the house, versus they took him to the hospital and they tried and they did and they did. Now, when they left, my husband went because I had a I had little kids I had to take care of. In my wildest imagination, the outcome was not what I had expected. I I was like, I was shocked. I I really, I really was totally caught off guard. It wasn't anything that I, you know, that we had anticipated. But um and our children weren't home. Our older kids were away in school and and stuff, and and I had to call this one and get this one and call my parents back. I I had to bring everybody, and um I I can only say that it was only because they was just like really literally standing behind me and and and giving me the kayak and the directions, and I had to call my parents who had just left the night before. I got into their my father um was speaking at a dental convention, and um, they had just left the day before to travel six hours. I had to call them. This is uh 5 30 in the morning. I had to call my parents up. I or I I guess I called them 4 30 or 5, whatever it was. I called up my parents and I we were raised, we don't ask questions, so I just said to my parents, I need you to come home now. And um they turned around and they got in the car and they drove six hours to get back here. I had to get one son who was um who had just come in from yeshiva and he was by his friends in Flatbush. I had another daughter who was in school in Philly, and I had to I had to get another son. Um I don't remember where he was. Anyway, um oh he was at the local yeshiva in the dorm. The rest of the kids were home. Um and and that's that's what I had to do. And um my husband was my husband had stayed in the hospital with our son. And um and that's it. My parents called who they had to call, and we all got into the mode, I guess you can call it. And we're still numb. We're still numb at this point. Um I think the numbness didn't wear off for for years because back then uh children being NIFTA was a um a fairly new a new thing. Um in my son's Hilka, where my where our son is, I believe there were 96 spots, and he was like the fourth one, fifth one to be buried there, and now there's only two spots left.

SPEAKER_02 7:54

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 7:54

So it's it's um it's a difference. Yes. There was really um things were also very different back then. Who to talk to, getting help, getting information, um, you know, and and you you start a whole new world, you start a whole new connection, you start you you meet new people and you meet new people that are there to help you.

Becoming A Support For Other Parents

SPEAKER_04 8:20

And um, and that's how I got into what I am. So I became um originally I became the purple lady first um because I went to be Manaframov with somebody. My husband and I decided, well, we spoke about it. Um, my my husband, everybody knows, is really the hostage in the relationship. He goes along with everything, he goes along with Walmish Gas. Um, so we had discussed uh different things, and uh we're Lubabachers, and Lebavatchers look for schlichas. Uh sometimes it's dumped on you, and sometimes you gotta go search for it. And we discussed it, and we decided that we felt that we had what to offer people, so we're gonna go be Menachemovel other families.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

Where do you live at Brooklyn?

SPEAKER_04 9:11

We've always lived here in Crown Heights. Okay, we live in Brooklyn, we always lived here. Um, so we just decided that we're we're gonna we're gonna see what we could do. We're gonna see how we could do it and what it how it works out, and and if it's a positive, and you know, and and there were people that were not for it or encouraging it, or but we just felt as I do now being with you, um, I feel like David's with me. I feel like he's giving me energy and he's you know, it's like when we go to be M'Achmawal, I always tell people, uh, I'm coming to talk to you, but I'm really doing it for me because when I speak to you, I'm giving myself chizak. And I feel like our son David is with me. I feel like he's with your child and he's telling your child, don't worry, my mom is gonna put her foot in her mouth, but before she leaves, she's gonna take it out and and everybody's gonna be okay. You know, we we just feel like we would have we had people who came and gave us good advice. Um did we realize? No, we didn't always realize. Did we appreciate it? I don't know. I hope so. Um, but I just knew that a lot of people don't have the strength of character or conviction to know that what they think and feel is right, and that they feel that they still need other people to tell them, and that's not necessarily the case. There's nothing, there's nothing written for this. There's nothing written anywhere. You can't find a safer that says, oh, if you if your child's pre-deceased, then this is how you gotta behave. It's not written anywhere. There are things what we're told, you know, there are different stuff, but there's nothing written in halakha because it's not normal. And because it's not normal, nothing you do can't be normal because it's normal. So the way I act and the way my husband acts is well, he's a hostage, he has no say in order. You know, the way the way we the way people respond has to be respected because each person is an individual.

SPEAKER_03 11:23

But people could um use the validation. Uh they they might they might not know if they they might think that what they're feeling really is crazy, and the validation could help them that, oh no, this is really correct.

SPEAKER_04 11:38

So so that's why when we go to talk to people, you know, it's like back in the day we tried to get there as soon as possible because there are always well-meaning people that will tell you, oh, you're gonna need medication now, you're gonna stay in your room, you're not it, it's not gonna, you're not gonna be normal ever again. People look at like you it's it's not like that. And it doesn't have to be like that. And it it unf unfortunately back then versus now, there's so many more of us. So there is there the chances of you not knowing somebody in this situation is very slim.

SPEAKER_02 12:22

Right.

SPEAKER_04 12:23

But the chances are the world has changed in such a way that no matter who you are, you have access to something, but what you would prefer is to have access to yourself. I am acting how I act because this is how I am. Um, I had a friend who called me up, I believe it was after Shiva, and he just said to me, He says, I don't know how you get out of bed. And I said, um, I said, uh, Yankala, if if I didn't get out of bed, I wouldn't be with people. I would start to smell, I would have accidents every I mean that's not my way of being. My way of being is to take this and go with it. I I have no choice in the matter because the the the opposite choice was just not, it's not something that I'm into. It's not, I have we have seven children, and we have six other children that needed to see it's a said, terrible thing, but it doesn't have to define you. And it like everything else, it doesn't have to define how you are. Um, our youngest was um just two at the time, and this was ear, and Yantiv was coming, and I remember um in shul, Avinumakinu, I lost it, I lost it. And my little two-year-old turned around to my classmate, who my friend, our neighbor, who sits behind me in shul, and she said, You know why my mommy's so sad? Because my brother was Nifter. And I want to tell you something. To me, that meant so much that she understood the pain and she understood the the relationship to how I was responding. It is painful, and it's okay to cry when you're in pain, and that you're not happy. It's okay because not everything is always okay.

SPEAKER_03 14:33

Right, right. Like it's okay, like your child is learning that my mother could be sad and she could cry, but at the same time, our life is not completely disintegrating. It was still a functionality.

SPEAKER_04 14:44

Correct, correct. We still had in Crown Heights, we still had lots and lots of guests, we still had lots of family, we still everybody, we still had to do a lot of things. Did we do everything right? No, because we're not perfect, right, right. But it's up to whoever we didn't do it perfect for to forgive. That's that's what we decided.

SPEAKER_02 15:06

Right.

SPEAKER_04 15:07

We we felt we did the best that we could and did, and under the the circumstances, so to speak.

SPEAKER_03 15:13

Right, right, right. So I just want to tell you, I got an interesting phone call yesterday. I don't know if you ever read the book or looked at the book for Ever in Our Hearts, what I wrote together with Glenn Holman.

SPEAKER_04 15:24

No, I'm sorry. Um I I will tell you why, just a little information here.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

Um somebody gave me a good time.

SPEAKER_04 15:31

No, I will tell you why. Somebody gave me a book when we were sitting Shiva because they really it helped them. They thought it was a good idea, whatever the reasoning, it doesn't matter. Um I couldn't relate to somebody else. No, what I couldn't relate to is the same as the tapestry has a magazine that they give out. Right. Um I don't read it. I will submit, but I won't read it because I cannot imagine that there is somebody else dealing with this situation. I know that there's a lot of us. I go to Mimanach Mavel, we go on Shabbatones, we we socialize, we've become friends outside of whatever you want to call it. Um, there has been intermarriage in the families. There has been, you know, we we we celebrate, we go to simchas together, we go on vacation together, some of us. We we do. We actually have connections. And um and it's just for me to read somebody else's pain and raw emotion is very hard for me. I I know I am, it's like I always say, I'm gonna live forever because I see who's dying, and God doesn't want me up there, that's for sure. So I I got no problem with that one, but to see the the raw emotions of other people, I also don't want it to cloud me. I'm me. I'm me because that's who I am. Like my mother will say, Where did you get that from? I go, God mom. I mean, like who else could have created such a funny?

SPEAKER_03 17:11

It's so healthy. So this book is not it's not one person's um perspective. It's not, you know, it's it's more about like it's not about a munan, I mean there's some amuna in there, but it's really about like what like what might be your reality. Like you might sit down at your shabbat's table for the next 10 years and look at that empty seat and cry. You might love Yantyf, you might hate Yantif after this. You know, your Sean Bayas might go stronger and might struggle. Your other children may need help, maybe they don't need help. Here's some things that you can look for. You know, it's more like general walk walking in. And as I got a phone call yesterday from someone he lives in Irish, he told me that he lost his child. He lost a baby three months ago. He said, I want you to know that I picked up your book two days ago, I can't put it down, I'm crying through it, and I realized that I didn't lose my marables because everyone is telling me it was just a baby, move on, you're the father, you're not the mother. See, he was feeling so invalidated and so horrible. So when you're saying people should trust themselves, sometimes you need to hear that like what you're feeling really is normal and okay.

SPEAKER_04 18:16

Correct, correct. We didn't have books back then, per se, except for one or two. But um, yes, that's why we felt by going to be Manachamavo, we were helping people to validate how they felt and that we're still normal. Um, that you can you you but you have to realize it's baby steps, it doesn't start, it doesn't, you don't wake up the next day, you're in shock for a very long time. And if you're not in shock, then you know it it's also okay, right?

SPEAKER_03 18:49

You know? So so we we really

Grief Timelines Personalities And Validation

SPEAKER_03 18:53

got connected. I mean, I've been posting things for a long time, but what made you really reach out to me was something about you were telling me that certain things could be hurtful to people because if someone is you know at the 20-year mark and they're feeling however they're feeling, someone might be reading something, you know, something that I wrote or they wrote, and it might be like, one second, why don't I feel like that? But they're only at the five-year mark, and that's like a whole different story. So um what did I want to ask you?

SPEAKER_04 19:20

There was something about well, there is there is a difference. Um, what mark mark you are at, whatever you want to call it, there is a difference. Um but a lot of it has to do with person a person's personality. Um if you could not share before, it's it's gonna be very hard for you to wake up now and start sharing.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

Right.

SPEAKER_04 19:44

If you if you could not um uh express yourself before, it's it's going to be very hard to start doing that. And but that's called your personality, that's called your way of doing things, and and that's okay because that's how the Averster created you. Um as I said, we have seven children, and we have Kenahara, seven different ways that this is being dealt with. Um, you know, we have everybody who's doing what they feel they can do and how they do and how they live based on their life and their life experiences. And that's everybody out in the world. What when people read things, yes, it validates them. I my fear, not fear, but I want people to be themselves. I want people to realize that it's okay how you are. And just because this person was that way doesn't mean you have to be. So that's what I was trying to say. Not that it's wrong to read about it and all that jazz. And because yes, sometimes it just says, Oh my God, I don't. There are there are people in our group, they didn't want to davin. And they would say, How how do you keep divining? I said, Do you do you light your shop's candles? They said, Of course. I said, Do you light all wheel of habitat? So we add a candle for each person. So I said, Do you light all your candles? And they said, Of course I do. I said, How do you light all your candles? Because you're saying your child is nifter, the abhish took your child away and your child's lost, or whatever the words are. And your child isn't. Your child is still with you. So if your child is still with you, and the abishta didn't take anything away from you except for uh bagashmias, a goof, you're still you're still lighting. So, so what what became that davaning is no good anymore? So each person has to come to their own self, they have to decide for themselves. So I'm not necessarily against writing. I think it's very important that people share and express themselves. I do have a problem, this has always been my thing, that if You teach if you know math and you teach math and you get up there and you're gonna teach science, you're not gonna be you're not fair to your students because you're coming at it not knowing math. You're doing science. When when when somebody goes and tells somebody how to behave, well-meaning neighbors, well-meaning aunts, well-meaning family, anybody, they're basing it on what? What are they basing it on? That's that's where I correct. That's where I have my issue is that if you're gonna tell me that this is the right or wrong way of doing something, you gotta back it up.

SPEAKER_03 22:40

But it was that post that you had a sensitivity to. When I posted about like how do you feel over yante for whatever it was, you didn't say anything, but it was like it was it was because I'm I I I oh right, because what I wrote to you is there has to be a separation between five up to five years, five to twelve years, fifteen years, whatever, and then passed because my my life has taken on a new dimension.

SPEAKER_04 23:08

When we have a grandchild and it's a boy, I know who or who is and who is not going to name after our son. I know that it's been a conversation and it's a relationship, and and I get it. We have one son, Kenara, five children. All his children are named after David. That that's serious, yes. David Amelech. He has a David a Melech, he has uh his favorite child, his favorite, his best friend, his favorite prince, his favorite wife, and his grandmother. So it's it's it's the it's the connection. You know from each child what is going to be their connection, what you know, and then you have the child that said, because of his birthday, we really had no choice. I have a grandson that was just born two days ago, five years ago, and his birthday is two days ago. And because it's so close to David's birthday, they felt they needed, they felt they needed to use, they wanted to do that. They wanted to use David's name. So that's what I'm saying. By it depends on your time out. Your, you know what I'm saying? When our son was NIFTR, none of our children were getting married or even close to that, let alone, you know, we were in the grandparent uh box.

SPEAKER_02 24:27

Right.

SPEAKER_04 24:27

So so that's why I feel that different stages in people's lives bring them to different places. I'm at a place now where um in for many years we always left Dovitt's seat as he sat there. That was his seat, he sat there, we left it alone. That was Dovitt's seat, and and if somebody came because the guys would come over after for dessert, whatever it was, the table fills up and somebody sat there. I didn't freak out. I would I would go like like this and breathe, but I didn't freak out. Get off that chair now, please. Get off that chair, get off that chair, you know. I would say to my husband next, get off that chair! I didn't do that. Like I learned that we don't leave an empty chair, we bring more people to our table. So, you know, it was just it was just how it was. But on the flip side, for my parents, um, we started spending Pesach with them and um in Florida, and um my father decided his job was going to be um because he's retired, he needs a job now, he's gonna set the table. And I would have never said, Well, we have to have a seat for David because that's not our table. We didn't sit there with David. It but my father said, Okay, but I'm putting David to my right now, is that okay?

SPEAKER_02 25:56

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 25:57

And for all the years that we were for, for 20 years we were with them for Pesach, or 19 years, David's seat was next to my father. My father said it that way. And so nice. And and and that's just how people have evolved. And and that's how we all evolve. But we but in any kind of a situation, a yuntiv doesn't bother me about David not being at the table. Most of my children aren't at the table. They're grown and they have families of their own. So my life has evolved.

SPEAKER_02 26:28

Right.

SPEAKER_04 26:29

That's why when you ask a question, how do you feel about Yantiv coming? Well, right now my stress is was for Shwis, how many different cheesecakes do I have to make for each person? Like, you know, that kind of a situation. It's not the stress that David isn't there. That's I try to share with people not to hold on to the pain. The pain is not going anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 26:59

Right.

SPEAKER_04 26:59

It's part of my life. Um but I I try, I don't want people that are, I mean, you have to say past a certain point. When you're new to this, you don't tell people anything. But when they if people can see people evolving to going forward in their life with this part of them, you know, it it helps people to grow in a positive direction. If you still have people that stay in bed after some after a certain amount of time, it's not healthy for anybody.

SPEAKER_03 27:37

Right, right, right. And and but at the same time, right, if you're staying in bed and not functioning like literally, right? But like someone was telling me a story that's uh uh someone reached out to her about another bereaved mother that every day she was posting on Instagram or something the amount of days that it was that her son was lifter, and this you can't even say, right? But you're just trying to say it's it's not okay, we have to stop her, she's not doing it's like one second, is she taking care of her family? Is she making supper? Is she doing carpal? Is she doing legit? So she misses her child and she wants to post the mouth of them. It's like like it's not for any like for anyone to decide that this is okay and this is functional, and like that's not functional. People do what

Meaningful Rituals And Keeping Connection

SPEAKER_03 28:20

they have.

SPEAKER_04 28:20

So I'll tell you, most people know David's candle is still lit. 21 years later, Dovitt's candle is still lit. Now, some people did have a problem with it. Um, and so we we went to a rough. Some people in the group, in the mom's group. It's not healthy, it's not normal. Who are you to tell me? Like, you know, my parents still can't tell me anything. Good luck. Anyway, but you know, it's like, but you know, but fine, let's let's go to a rough. Sure, no problem. I'm easy. So I said, I'm not telling you to put a candle. I have a candle. That's my business. But it bothers you, let's go to a rough. So I call up and the rough says, Does it make you sad? I said, absolutely not. Does it remind you of pain? Absolutely not. What does that candle do for you? That candle is my connection. That candle is not the reminder of my son. I have his stuff all over the place. I said, that candle is a reminder to me that I have that connection. That is my connection to David, is that candle. When I take that candle with me when I go places, no. I was away for shorts. Do we light a candle there? Well, yes, you know, a yardside candle, obviously. But um it's for me, it gives me a sense of comfort that I have that candle there. Do his pictures do it? Does this do it? Does that do it? Yes, but uh that candle for me is an immense sense of comfort.

SPEAKER_02 29:52

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 29:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:54

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 29:55

And to the point that I have gone away on trips and the candle has gone out, and before I'm coming, if somebody was living in the house, they they always lit that candle. So that when I came home, I saw the candle lit. Wow.

unknown 30:10

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 30:11

It was a very it was a very positive and special thing. If something brings you pain and it's a constant negative reminder, it's really it is not good. It's not good, it's not healthy. But if something gives you comfort, then that's very healthy. And everybody gets comfort their own way. I wear purple, I keep a candle lit. It's my thing.

SPEAKER_03 30:35

Right. So we you started telling me the purple story, but then we digress.

SPEAKER_04 30:39

What happened was um I went to be Manachemovel, a mother in uh Williamsburg, actually. Um so I'm trying to remember how many years ago. It has to be, I think 16 years ago. I'm a sketchy on everyone's uh dates. Um but I went to be Menachemovel, and um I was attired in my purple clothes, and um I was speaking. They asked me to speak, I spoke, and um and afterwards uh there was a woman there who wrote about me in a uh publication from Sam Genu, but she didn't remember my name, so she signed, she wrote me as the purple lady. She didn't, and that's it. So now that's that's where it started. Oh, you're the purple lady. I heard about you. Oh, you're oh, uh, or people would tell people, don't worry, the purple lady's gonna come and she's gonna talk to you. Or it just became a thing. It became a thing to the point that I could only wear purple. I liked purple, my house is purple, as you could see. I it's that it wasn't uh a tercha to wear purple. Um, it just became a thing like I couldn't wear any other color. So, you know, and and it became a thing. Like anytime I do anything, it's purple themed. What could I do?

SPEAKER_03 31:54

So you mammish wear purple every day, or only like my mammoths wear purple every day.

SPEAKER_04 31:58

Yes. I I have a black skirt, I do have that, but um I do wear purple. Um so I became the purple lady from that, and then Bakhsham with Everstar blessed us over 13 years ago with our first grandchild. Uh, that's when they changed it to now you're purple Safta. Everybody by us is Israeli, so it's Saba and Safta. Um, and uh, but somebody tried to tell my husband went to buy me something, and somebody tried to tell him that I'm spelling it wrong. Um when I write it in English that I'm spelling it wrong. As you can see from my name on my screen, it says purple Safta. It's spelled S-O-F-T-A, because I'm a soft safta. When my grandchildren ask me for anything, anything, I give them two. And and as long as it doesn't, my kids aren't around, I can do whatever I want. That's the rule. When Safta, when no parents are around, it's whatever I want. When the parents are around, I respect my children 100%. Of course, I'm only saying that because people are gonna hear that, but it's true, it's true, basically. So that's why I prefer to spell it this way because it's it's softer.

SPEAKER_02 33:04

Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 33:06

So that's how I became the purple lady, and that's how I became purple softa. And yes, I basically um only wear purple when I go places, and people um when they see it, they have told me

Purple Lady Story And Careful Language

SPEAKER_04 33:20

that they can open up, they could say things. I'm not regular, I'm I'm different. I am different. Um, and and I appreciate that about myself, and I like that about myself. I don't want to be in the box.

SPEAKER_03 33:34

Um I'll tell you what I appreciated about you when I spoke to you and I said something about your lost child, and right away you're not. My child is not lost, but I didn't feel stupid. It was a lesson to me. No, it's not being more careful, but I didn't feel like I just hurt her so badly.

SPEAKER_04 33:50

No, absolutely not. Nope. I go through this plenty all the time with a lot of people. Our son is not lost. I know exactly where he is. He's in Shemain with Abushtur, and he is he's where he's supposed to be. And I'm I'm here in my living room, dining room, talking to you, and that's where I'm supposed to be right now.

SPEAKER_03 34:09

Right, right, right. But my point was is that sometimes I could say something to someone, and afterwards I could feel so bad. I'm like, oh, that was like a very sensitive thing for them. I didn't realize that. But I didn't feel like bad. I was like, okay, I'm I'm gonna be careful not to say that to you or to anyone, but I don't feel like stupid, like, oh my gosh, I just said the worst thing. I feel horrible, which is a very big mile on you.

SPEAKER_04 34:29

I I want to tell you something. It's thank you, but I want to tell you something. It it hurts me when I see people getting hurt by something so easy. Our society has changed to a point where we have to be careful of a lot of things. Um for somebody like me, it's it's not a good idea. I'm I'm not good about being careful. I'm I'm I'm very good about um being honest and being open and and saying it how it is. I don't know really any other way.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

Right.

SPEAKER_04 35:04

So if I hurt you, I apologize, but I know that it's it's it's a it's a lingo people have used.

SPEAKER_03 35:13

Oh, you're saying if if if oh yeah if you hurt someone because they said loss, really, right?

SPEAKER_04 35:20

But it's a in our group, I it's a it's a joke because people will say, Don't say loss around Shoshana, she didn't lose, and then they'll wait. And your child had you lose, and then they go, Oh, yeah, Shoshana that. Oh, there it comes now. So it it helps me. It helps me. I remember the first time I did it, we were on a um, we were on a high lifeline retreat, and um in in the beginning, what they do, every all the parents are in a big, big circle, and everyone's going around and they're all standing up, and they're all standing up, and then um uh my husband got up to speak and he said our name and our son. We we lost our son. I said, Excuse me. I didn't lose my son. If you lost your son, then you need to work on yourself. But I was I told people I I haven't lost anything, I know where he is, right? You know, and I always tease people if you you know, when you the definition of loss is that you don't have it. I have him, I have him.

SPEAKER_03 36:31

He's also um moving on and moving forward, right? I always get mixed up. Like, how did I say the wrong way by mistake?

SPEAKER_04 36:40

We are moving on with our lives, we are moving forward in a positive direction. We but we are bringing everybody with us, right? We don't leave, we don't leave anybody behind. Leave your Yay Zahara behind, leave your bed, leave us behind, leave all the negativity behind. But we we do we we're going forward in a positive direction, and we're going, we're we're not moving on because we don't leave them, we go forward, but we're bringing everything with us. Whatever I did as a child, whatever I did as a teen, like my life is part of who I am. This is another aspect of my life.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

Right.

SPEAKER_04 37:26

So I'm going forward with everything else. So we don't move on, we don't, we don't leave them and we don't forget. And when are you gonna go on? When are you gonna just when are you just when is it gonna be enough? When is it when are you gonna go on? What I I am going on, I am going forward, but it's part of who I am.

SPEAKER_03 37:47

Um says that they're ready to like turn the page, they're not closing that chapter of their child, they're just sort of ready to, I guess, move on while taking that chapter with them.

SPEAKER_04 38:00

Well, like correct, like with anything else, when you when you're turning a page, it's just when I'm up to page 300 in a book, I've read the first 299. So now I've internalized it. I I mean, when I I don't know if I've ever heard the expression to turn the page. Um there are people, and I I really honestly believe that people are well-meaning. Um I I I can't imagine that God actually made truly mean-spirited from people. No, but I have heard people that have said, you're gonna get past this, you're gonna, you know, you're gonna forget this child. I I remember when somebody came to be Manachma Vilas. Um, my husband, there was a fellow Rebbe in the yeshiva whose child was Nifter prior to ours, a sweet girl. Um, she had drowned in the country. Um, and I'm I'm guessing it was a year, it was a couple years before us. And he came to Ibn Raf Muvel, and he was um, we were in a big room. My husband was on one side, I was on the other side, and the kids were dispersed all over, whatever they chose. And um he came in and he was talking to my husband, and all I heard from my husband was, you better leave before my wife hears you. So I'm I'm we always use each other as that, as that, you know, you better leave before you hear you know, you know. Um, so I heard that and my ears picked up, and I was like, What's going on? And uh, and then the guy, the other Rebbe turned around and looked at me and he got up and he walked out. I guess he took my husband and he said to my husband, he said, Do yourself a favor, forget about your child, forget about it, you know, just just you know you're like, don't let it dwell, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't dwell, don't, don't. And my husband taught one of that Rebbe's sons a couple years later, uh a few enough years later, that that boy didn't even know he had a sister that was NIFTA. And I never felt that that was a positive. You know, we all make our choices. We can decide that what are we going to do about this and what are we gonna do about that? People asked, what are you gonna do with his stuff? I don't, hello. My first reaction was to throw away his mattress. And my um my sister-in-law had said to me, said, wait, don't, let's see, let's see what goes on. And on my boy underneath said, I want to sleep on his bed. And then after she was, he was done, the next one. They wanted to have that connection. You know, uh the following year we made another bar mitzvah, and it was 17 days before his. And my son said, Are you gonna sit here all night and watch me sleep? And like he was like, you know, shtacking me, like, you know, come on, Ma, what are you gonna do about it? You know, and I'm like, no, because what can I do? I ex I have experienced many dimensions of loss with with friends that I've met through this, that um you could have been holding your child. My child was just sleeping. And it you could have been holding your child. And it's, you know, my daughter was in Eritzistral when one of the wars broke out, and her cousins were all making fun of her. And oh, it's gonna get scary, the bombs, the guns, you know, Israelis are one thing and Americans are another, you know, they could be cousins, but they're different. And they were they were like teasing her in their you know, Israeli way. And uh so she calls me up and she says, Mom, I'm scared, I want to come home. Okay, okay, where is the safest place? She says, In my house. I said, Okay, where in your house? She said, in my room, okay, where in your room? She said, in my bed. I said, Prena, your brother was nifter in his bed, in his room, in the house. In fact, his bed was separated only by the closet to my bed. So, where else is it safe? So she said, Thank you, Ima. And she stayed in Israel until she was supposed to come home.

SPEAKER_02 42:23

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 42:23

It's our job to. You know, it's like the doctor, our doctor said to us, you know, he said, he said, when it came later, he said to us, he says, you know, you just missed him. It you must have just missed him because, you know, he was not NIFTA very long. And I said to the doctor, my son wasn't a train station, you know, it wasn't, it was what it was. But the truth is, when I went in to check on my son at two o'clock, he was probably NIFTA already.

SPEAKER_01 43:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:03

And that and that was the Averstra's way of telling me to send him off. Let him go, rest in peace.

unknown 43:12

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 43:12

No parent says that. No normal parent, I told you I wasn't normal, no normal parent says that to their child when they go to wish them good night and sleep well to rest in peace. But that was the chesed, and and that's how I took it. Also, David

Moving Forward With Faith And Guidance

SPEAKER_04 43:30

did come to me in a dream. He did right away during Shiva, he came to me in a dream. And um he came running, you know, the proverbial, the the big light in the background. Right. It was a big light, and he's running towards me. And right before he gets to me, he's laughing. He was a little, he was a little chubby boy, and and right before he got to me, he stopped, and then he turned around and ran back happy as any. Think. And to me, that told me he's happy. He is in a good place. And um, three weeks after he was NIFTAR, his best friend came to us and told us that David has come to him every day, every night in a dream, and he tells him the same thing. Why is everybody so sad when I am so happy?

unknown 44:20

Really?

SPEAKER_04 44:21

This is not our mitzvah boy, so he's not like, you know, making stuff up. And that's exactly what he said for three weeks. He he it was getting to him, and he came and told us, and he said, and then David stopped coming to him. But that was David's message. I am so happy. And that's it. So from then on, that was how it is. It's not that we are disrespecting the pain, it's there. We just had his yard site. It's there, it's very hard. It's but there are right now in our life, 21 years later, I can say we have harder things to deal with, but we have so much of other life, um, life's living, that there are other things that when when you ask people, a group of 10 women in different stages of this grief, five years, 10 years, 15, 20, you're going to get a different response. So it can't ever be across the board. Because right now I deal with what I deal with in my family versus new people, what they're dealing with, if it's a young child or you know, just what they're dealing with, which generation and things like that. Right. That's yeah, that's why there's nothing. That's why there was nothing written about this, because it's too, it's it's too big dimensional. It really is too big dimensional.

SPEAKER_03 45:47

Yeah, it is. It's it's like not possible to really get every little every little thing.

SPEAKER_04 45:54

Right. That's why in our group, the tapestry, the moms, um, there are several WhatsApp texting groups for newbies, for for people who have sudden, people who had illness, people who have unfortunately children that that killed themselves. It's just or or or they had challenged children beforehand that that that were uh were nifter, you know, if they were um, I forgot the politically correct word, but if they had autistic children that were NIFTR, or they had all these different things, there's different categories. My husband and I, we don't go to be Menachemadil uh for a few years now. We we don't go to babies, um because I I it's it's it's a different situation, you know what I'm saying?

unknown 46:52

Right.

SPEAKER_04 46:52

We've had people tell us that they were sitting Shiva for a baby, they don't even they didn't know anything about that baby, you know. They so it's it's how people you know differentiate things, and then even in a couple, you know, each person is different, right? So Bara Hashem, we we've we people people will take on their life's challenges and they will decide what's the easiest for them, what's the best. You all you want them to choose what's the best for them. This has been the best for me. This has been how I have been able to deal with a lot of things. I I I have other things that I deal with with our other children, but I have found that this is how I deal with it for me. And I think that each person has to find that for themselves. And I can't tell them how to do it, I can only show them what I've done, you know, and and that's what helps people. Um, I also don't know about when somebody's a I mean, I had a great aunt that was nephtered 105. I mean, she used to tell me, could you put my name and address outside my door? Maybe God lost me, forgot about me, or thought. I'd be like, you have a purpose. And and you know, that's your purpose. This is what it is. And I always tell her, whenever she would tell me that, I said, you know, for me, that's so mean. My bobby was your younger sister, and I would love to still have my bubby here. So can you just do what you're supposed to do and be my bubby now? And you know, and and you know, please. And uh, you know, so she says she stopped asking me, she would ask somebody else.

SPEAKER_03 48:48

Wow. Yeah. Um, okay. I don't know. Anything like important that we missed before we I don't know if it's anything important because I just think that um people have to know that they're not doing anything wrong unless they're hurting themselves.

SPEAKER_04 49:10

People aren't doing anything wrong unless they're they're hurting somebody else. Um this is part of your life now. This is, you know, it's interesting. Um, oh God, where was I? Oh, I was just away with friends, and um, somebody asked us, how do you know each other? So that is a fellow bereaved mother who I was talking to, and I said, We have a mutual friend to introduce us, and we've been friends ever since. And that mutual friend is the Abushther. Our children were both Nifter, and we got connected that way. And then on the flip side, there are going to be people that can't handle it. Um, that um they're they're gonna see people that would have never had anything to do with anybody in in a normal a normal setting, but now they're connected. They they not always can people handle that. And then there's the people that they just want everybody to keep going on the same way. I'm sorry this happened, next, you know, next. I've had people that told me that their parents didn't allow them to get connected with other people because they felt if they dwelled in it too much, they weren't helping themselves. And that's why each person has to do what they could do because I'm gonna survive by being me. You know what I'm saying, Miriam? I'm only gonna survive this and everything else that I deal with is by being me. I don't know how to be anybody else, but I also don't want to be anybody else. You know the old expression, if everybody would go around and throw their peck a into the thing and take something else, everyone's gonna take back theirs because I know what mine is. I I, you know, I'm I'm living it with it for 23 years. So everybody knows what their how long they've been alive for and what they've been living with it for, and and they want to deal with it for I know what I can handle. I know my husband of Barksham today's our anniversary, 42 years. I I know from my husband what I don't know about my friend's husband. You know, I this is my this is me, this is my package, and this is what I can handle. And that's what I try to tell people.

SPEAKER_03 51:43

Like what you're saying, really, is if someone if someone is getting messages, outside messages that are conflicting with their insides, then they really have to go for help and figure it out.

SPEAKER_04 51:55

Um, I don't want to say I'm not a proponent of getting help. Um, I'm a proponent of I mean a rub, a rebitzin. Correct. I'm a very big proponent on people speaking to other people that understand them. Um, the Babasha Rebbe was very big on having a Mashpiya, having guidance. Um and I always I don't joke, it's a true, I have three Mashpias because I don't think one person can understand me. I know one person can understand me. I don't understand me, and I'm only one person. But, you know, um, but that's but that's me. And I just feel that if more people would speak to people that are past their stage, it's like a girl going into Shiduchem. Speak to somebody that's been married for 10 years, she's past a certain stage in her life. Um, somebody wanting to go off to yeshiva, speak to somebody that can guide you, a rub, a mashpiya. Speak to people that know you, understand you. Um, somebody wants to move to a new neighborhood. Speak to the people that would that live there that would connect you properly there. People that have experienced loss of a child, right? Their child was nifter. They can they're going to either help you or not. You have to connect to the people that you feel can help you in every stage of your life. And that's what I try to tell people. I I am not for everybody. I am I am not for everybody, and and that's okay. I'm I'm for me. Right now, I'm for me. I I I I I'm sure I did not make all the right decisions for all our children. I'm sorry. You know, I'm sorry. And and it is and it is what it is. I just know that I always say this: I'm in it to win it, I'm in it to be successful. And if I can help, I want to help. But not always can I. We have gone places, literally. Um, we have gone places, we've driven almost two hours, and there was a sign-up, and it was during their break. So we turned around and went home because that's neighbor's way of saying, you really don't need to go there. Next. And and we one time went someplace, and um we really we we really felt so bad for them because we went and we sat down and they their question was, do you have a child that was NIFTA? They they worded it a little different, and we said yes, we did. And and the man got up and he screamed and he yelled and he said, I don't want to talk to any of you. You have no idea what I'm going through. You have no idea. You weren't there, you did, and I said, You're right, and we left. Because that's how it is for people. Each person has their each person has what they are supposed to do. I wasn't we weren't supposed to talk to them. We we were supposed to talk to who we were supposed to talk to.

SPEAKER_03 55:11

Wow. It takes um a certain amount of anivas to accept that.

SPEAKER_04 55:17

It does because um one time we went away on a shabbaton. Many years ago, we went away on a shabbaton with uh fellow brief families, parent couples, I think it was then, and um and there was talk of whether or not people should go to whether or not we fellow parents should go to be Manach Mavo. And people were doing this and people were doing that, and and some people felt that we as count as parent people who everyone knows we do it, we were being bashed. Now, I'm I guess I'm naive because I didn't think I was being bashed, but I said, you you thought I was being bashed, and oh yeah, that was all about you, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, okay, I'll tell you what, I'll make a deal with you. I said, um, if we're not supposed to do it anymore, we're gonna know pretty quickly. Um because unfortunately, prior to that weekend, there was a a young girl, NIFTA, and um we were on Sunday, we were gonna drive through there to go be Manachmavo. Um, we're not supposed to do Simonim, but um, I do it anyway. Anyway, um I said we're gonna drive there. If the door is closed, if there's a sign up, we shouldn't come in, if the mother doesn't talk to me, if like I I really ten, I made it like really easy for God to say, don't ever do this again. Like I really, I I like, you know, if someone else is wearing purple, I had the most ridiculous, but it was like I was making it so easy for God. Wow, that I never do it again. To this day, she's one of my closest friends.

SPEAKER_02 57:10

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 57:13

I I just decided that I I was right, nobody was putting me down, or maybe I'm naive and they were, um, but that this is something that we are going to try to keep doing for as long as we can, because again, at the end of the day, it's about me and and me being connected to my son.

SPEAKER_03 57:35

Right, right.

Remembering Children And Choosing Hope

SPEAKER_04 57:36

Um, I want to just share one story if that's okay, and you do what you want with it. Um, so um our daughter, our oldest daughter at the time, we had a two-year-old. We friends of ours wanted to send us to Israel, you know, just the two of us to have a break and to go diving and et cetera, et cetera. And uh so we we our daughter said she was going to be a counselor at camp to run a camp, and she said she'll take her with her, our two-year-old. And we went to Eritz's Strall. Um, and um so so that was all taken care of. We went to Eritz's Strall. That camp is run by um an amazing people, the Labors, up in uh up in New York, up in Albany, New York. And they my daughter has been connected to her for um going on probably close to 25 years. Anyway, um fast forward, my granddaughter goes to her camps. Um, she goes to camp also now to her camps, and the families are are connected. My daughters are connected, my daughter is connected, and my granddaughter, and it's beautiful. Um, and she does these programs with the girls from the camp all year long. Beautiful. This past perm or last perm, whatever it was, she gave out. Oh, it's this past, she gave out swag bags. I make a breathe mom's birthday event every year. It's purple, and I'm always looking for the bag, for the swag bag, for the gift to give everything in. And she gave my granddaughter said, Safta, this must be for you. It's purple, and it was a bag, a swag bag, and it had beautiful, had very strong words on it. You are as strong as you can be, whatever it was. You can grow from your strength, beautiful. So I called her up not too long ago, and I said, Nahma, um, my granddaughter shared with shared with me your purple bag, and I would love to know if I can get, if you can give me 50 of them, I'd love to have them for my birthday party this year. So she said, Well, I'm making a mom's event. Um, you know, she knows about our son that was being NIFTER, and and we were talking. She said, Let me see. I'm having a mom's event, let me see what's left over afterwards. Um, so I said, Great. She reached out to me a couple weeks ago. She had bumped into a bereaved mother at the IEL, um, a famous one, Dori Halberstam. Her son was killed by terrorists uh much before Devin. Um I'm I'm thinking it's like 27 years ago already, or something like that. 25. I think it was 1999 from a terrorist attack. So it's 27 years ago. Anyway, so um she was at the aisle, I believe it was her son Ari's birthday. Um she actually videotaped what Devari had to say about it, and it was so beautiful and so powerful. And um I said to Nahama that it was so beautiful that you shared it with me because all us Old Timers want is that people remember our children and they don't fear talking to us about them or mentioning them or walking around us or like like we have a disease, like you know, we don't. Um and I said to her that you must have made Devery's day, you've made my day. Like it's so special because and I kept telling her how that's all we want. And then she said, by the way, I have the bags for you, no problem. When you're ready, let me know. I'll send them. Now I don't know if you're aware, but this past uh Yantiv, there was a tragedy, a young Bible gave birth, she burst in aneurysm, and she died. Her baby is on life support, and we are dominating for Tino Hakoin Ben Raisal. Um and all I can think about is uh the aberster sent to the grandma, the mother, Nahama, all this Nakama. So I right away sent a message to her and I sent her, I'm coming. I I said to her, the abersher sent you a message. Abersher knew my son was not waking up that morning. Abersha knew what was happening with her daughter two weeks later after we spoke. But Abersher knew all this, and the Abersha said to me, Send your son off. So I said to my son, Rest in peace. And that's what we have to remember. Those words came from the Abushter, how what I shared with Nahama. Those words came to the Abistur what I said to my son. The Abister loves us at next level. And I had gave birth to our youngest. We were thinking of names. My daughter's name is Nahama Raisel. I had no reason 23 years ago to name my daughter Nahama Razel. It just came to me. We knew we were gonna use Razil and I wanted to put a name with it. All of a sudden, in the middle of the night, I yelled out Nahama, and I said to my husband the next day, I said, Oh, I think I thought of a great name for our daughter. He goes, Yeah, I think the whole block knows her name. I'm like, Oh, you I said it? He goes, Yeah, Nahama Razal. I'm like, Yeah, how'd you know? He goes, whole block. Anyway, the the Abers just sent our Nahama before he sent anything else. And we just have to we have to see it that it it's there.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:23

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:26

Nobody is alone, Miriam. Nobody is alone, whether it's a parent, a child, a sibling, whatever it is, nobody's alone. You have to go tap into that so that you're not a little bit more.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:42

It's a lot of work to really not feel that loneliness. I'm sorry, it's a lot of work to know that you're not alone, to really feel not alone.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:52

It's a lot of work to not feel alone, correct. But it's a decision that you have to make with everything else. It's a decision you have to make no matter what. You know, as a shotgun, I tell the kids, you're gonna decide when you're sitting across from that person how you're going to react to what they say and what they do and what things mean. You know, like one boy was, he couldn't get past a girl had a run in her stocking. I said to him, Can I can I find out? Because I know these people. Can I find out? The story was she ripped her stocking going out. Either she went back in and was she was late, or it was a there was a reason for it. You have to decide what you're doing about it. And I just decided this is this is bad. This is big time bad. This is yeah, top tier. This is painful. We have a son in Shemayam. I don't have him here, I don't have him but goof. It's painful. But am I going to have is that gonna destroy me? Can it make me stronger? It can make me stronger, but I don't want it to change me. I was like this before, I was I'm gonna be like this later. That's just how I am, right? And I I want people to realize that it's okay that I'm still the way I am. It doesn't mean it when you talk to people, I have three things I like when I go to be Manachamovo. You laugh, you you smile, you cry, you're sad, but you laugh.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:39

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:40

Because you have to realize that's normal.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:43

Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:44

You're gonna get up eventually, you're gonna get dressed, you're gonna put on makeup, you're you're gonna do what you're supposed to do, and you're gonna be a positive influence for people. What people decide from that is up to them. Not everybody likes me. Go no. But it it it but I'm not for everybody, and and that's just how it is.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:10

Yeah, for sure. Well, thank you so so much for coming on. I really appreciate it. And uh it's Nashama should have an aliyah, and we should have my pleasure.

Closing And Ways To Connect

SPEAKER_00 1:06:22

You've just listened to an episode of the Grief Journey Podcast with Miriam Ribiat, brought to you by Mayrim. For more episodes, please visit the Mayorim website at www.mayrim.org. Help us reach others who may benefit from this podcast. If you know someone who might find it meaningful, please consider sharing it with them. If you have questions or comments for the speaker, or if you would like to suggest a guest for a future episode, we would love to hear from you. Email us at podcast at mayrim.org. We look forward to having you join us for the next episode.